for michael smith only

Captioning sponsored by PUBLIC AFFAIRS TELEVISION THIS WEEK ON BILL MOYERS'"JOURNAL": HE'S BEEN CALLED A VOICE OF CONSCIENCE FOR AMERICAN MUSLIMS I CONDEMN ALL THE LUNATICS THAT ARE KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE BE THEY IN PIZZA HOUSES IN TEL AVIV, BE THEY INNOCENT MUSLIMS,CHRISTIANS OR OTHERS BEING SLAUGHTERED SENSELESSLY IN IRAQ. I CONDEMN IT ALL. IMAM ZAID SHAKIR ON HIS JOURNEY FROM THE PROJECTS TO FAITH. AND KEN SILVERSTEIN WITH A LOOK AT HOW WASHINGTON REALLY WORKS.THESE FIRMS WERE BLINDED BY GREED. I THINK IF THEY HAD NOT VIEWED ME AS A BIG, GLOWING SACK OF MONEY THEY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTENIN AS DEEP AS THEY DID. NEW LIGHT ON OLD DIRT THIS WEEK ON BILL MOYERS "JOURNAL." FROM OUR STUDIO IN NEW YORK, BILL MOYERS.

Moyers: WELCOME TO THE "JOURNAL." EVERY DAY PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE MAKE THEIR WAY UP THE STEPS OF THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL TO PAY THEIR RESPECTS TO THE MARTYRED PRESIDENT. FROM HERE LINCOLN BROODS OVERTHE CITY HE ONCE SAW AS THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT OF, BY, AND FOR THE PEOPLE. BUT THIS IS NO LONGER THEIR CITY, OR LINCOLN'S.THIS IS AN OCCUPIED CITY, A COMPANY TOWN, WHOSE POPULATION OF LOBBYISTS CONSTITUTE THE PERMANENT GOVERNMENT. THE NUMBER OF LOBBYISTS REGISTERED TO DO BUSINESS INWASHINGTON HAS MORE THAN DOUBLED SINCE THE YEAR 2000. THERE ARE NOW 25 LOBBYISTS FOR EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS. THIS IS WHERE YOU START IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW IT IS THAT SOME TRULY AWFUL REGIMES AROUND THE WORLD KEEP ON WINNING FAVORS FROM OUR GOVERNMENT. I MEAN GOVERNMENTS RULED BY DICTATORS, DESPOTS, AND TYRANTSOF EVERY KIND-- GOVERNMENTS THAT SEND THEIR CRITICS TO PRISON, TORTURE DISSIDENTS, STEAL FROM THEIR OWN PEOPLE, CONTROL THEPRESS, AND MAKE A MOCKERY OF HUMAN RIGHTS, YET STILL WIND UP WITH TRADE AGREEMENTS, U.S. TAX DOLLARS IN THE FORM OF FOREIGN AID, BUSINESS DEALS BLESSED ON HIGH AND A HEARTY WELCOME IN CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE. IF YOU'VE EVER ASKED YOURSELF,WHY ARE WE HELPING THOSE GUYS, YOU ARE ABOUT TO MEET A TOUR GUIDE TO OUR NATION'S CAPITAL WHO CAN SHOW YOU WHAT DIRTY LITTLE SECRETS LIE BEHIND SOME OF WASHINGTON'S FANCIEST ADDRESSES AND PROMINENTLETTERHEADS; PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW OUR GUIDE IS KEN SILVERSTEIN, ONE OF THE FEW JOURNALISTS WHO HAS MADE LOBBYING HIS BEAT. HE'S NOW THE WASHINGTON EDITOR OF "HARPER'S" MAGAZINE. HE'S WRITTEN TWO BOOKS OF A FERRET'S LIFE IN THE DARKCORNERS OF POLITICS AND

GOVERNMENT: THIS ONE "WASHINGTON ON $10 MILLION A DAY" AND THIS ONE "PRIVATE WARRIORS." HIS LATEST EXPOSE APPEARS IN THECURRENT ISSUE OF "HARPER'S." TO FIND OUT WHAT WASHINGTON LOBBYISTS DO FOR FOREIGNGOVERNMENTS, SILVERSTEIN GOESUNDERGROUND, CREATES A FICTIONAL NAME-- KEN CASE-- WITH A FICTIONAL BUSINESS CARD FOR A FICTIONAL COMPANY IN LONDON THATWANTS A WASHINGTON LOBBYING FIRM TO HELP IT IMPROVE THE IMAGE OF A REAL COUNTRY-- TURKMENISTAN, IN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH ANOPPRESSIVE REGIME NOTORIOUS FOR ABUSING ITS PEOPLE AND LOTS OF ENERGY RESERVES. TO FIND SOMEONE TO SELL TURKMENISTAN TO WASHINGTON, SILVERSTEIN CALLS ON TWO BIGLOBBYING FIRMS-- APCO ASSOCIATES, WITH OVER 400 CLIENTS INCLUDING SEVEN OF THE TOP TEN COMPANIES ON FORTUNE'S GLOBAL 500; AND CASSIDY & ASSOCIATES, PERHAPS, SAYSSILVERSTEIN, THE MOST PROMINENT OF ALL THE WASHINGTON LOBBY SHOPS. BOTH FIRMS BOASTED TO SILVERSTEIN OF THEIR ROSTER OFFORMER PUBLIC SERVANTS WHO WOULD HELP THE CAUSE. APCO'S TEAM INCLUDES TEN FORMER AMBASSADORS, 17 FORMER ELECTEDPOLITICIANS, 26 FORMER BUSINESS LEADERS, 54 FORMER JOURNALISTS, 41 FORMER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND 90 FORMER POLITICAL ADVISERS. CASSIDY & ASSOCIATES CLAIMS THAT ITS TEAM HAS SERVED ON CAPITOLHILL AS MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ANDCONGRESSIONAL STAFF, IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND IN THE PENTAGON AS FLAG-RANK MILITARY OFFICERS. IN "HARPER'S" THIS MONTH, KENSILVERSTEIN'S STORY REPORTS ON THE INFLUENCE HE CAN BUY IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT.HERE'S THE LEAD. YOU POSED AS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF A BUSINESS GROUP WORKING FOR THE COUNTRY OF TURKMENISTAN, YOU GOT TWO TOP LOBBYING FIRMS INWASHINGTON TO PROPOSE A CAMPAIGN TO POLISH THEIR IMAGE. NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING OUT OF BORAT. WE TOYED WITH THE BORAT TYPE APPROACH, BUT WE REALLY FELTTHAT THAT WOULD BE COUNTER- PRODUCTIVE CAUSE WE WANTED TO MAKE A POLITICAL POINT, WHICH WAS THAT THE RULES THAT APPLY TOTHESE FIRMS ARE TOO WEAK, THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO MANIPULATE POLITICAL AND PUBLIC OPINION TOO EASILY. AND WE WANTED TO HIGHLIGHT THAT, AND SO WE THOUGHT WE BETTER DO IT STRAIGHT AS OPPOSED TO DOINGIT AS A COMEDY ROUTINE.

Moyers: SO, YOU... YOU POSE AS A CONSULTANT NAMED? KENNETH CASE OF THE MALDON GROUP.

Moyers: THE MALDON GROUP. WHAT'S THE MALDON GROUP? THE MALDON GROUP WAS MODELED ON... IT'S A REAL LIFE SITUATION. I DESCRIBED THE FIRM AS HAVING A STAKE IN THE NATURAL GAS SECTOR IN TURKMENISTAN, THAT WE WERE INVOLVED IN THE EXPORT OF NATURAL GAS FROM TURKMENISTAN TO EASTERN EUROPEAN MARKETS, THAT WE WERE A GROUP OF PRIVATE INVESTORS FROM THE MIDDLE EASTAND EASTERN EUROPE. IF I CAN POINT OUT THAT THIS IS NOT AN UNCOMMON SITUATION. THIS IS A SITUATION THAT YOU WILL FIND TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WHERE THERE'S A CUTOUT FIRM THATACTUALLY DOES THE HIRING, SO THAT IT DOESN'T QUITE SO BAD. AND THEN THEY CAN SAY WE'RE NOT WORKING FOR TURKMENISTAN; WE'REWORKING FOR THE MALDON GROUP. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE PLANS THEY LAID OUT FOR ME, IT WAS CLEAR THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND WHO THEY WERE WORKING FOR, AND WHAT THE GOAL WAS. AND THAT GOAL WAS TO IMPROVE THE IMAGE OF ONE OF THE WORLD'S WORST DICTATORSHIPS. SO, WE PICKED TURKMENISTAN, WHICH--

Moyers: IT REALLY IS? IT'S SCRAPPING THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL.

Moyers: HOW SO? WELL, I MEAN, NORTH KOREAMIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT WORSE IN TERMS OF JUST BEING AN ABSOLUTELY REPREHENSIBLEDICTATORSHIP, BUT NORTH KOREA WAS OVER THE TOP. IT'S ILLEGAL TO LOBBY FOR THEGOVERNMENT IN NORTH KOREA. WE THOUGHT TURKMENISTAN WAS ABOUT AS CLOSE AS YOU COULD GET. UNTIL LAST YEAR, THE COUNTRY WASRULED BY A... THE SELF-DESCRIBEDTURKMENBASHI, THE GREAT RULER OF THE TURKMEN. HE WAS A NOTORIOUS DICTATOR. HE BUILT MONUMENTS TO HIMSELF, HE RENAMED THE MONTH OF JANUARY AFTER HIMSELF, ANOTHER MONTH WAS NAMED FOR HIS MOTHER.VODKA AND SALT WERE NAMED AFTER THE TURKMENBASHI. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A SORT OFCOMICAL SIDE, IF YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT IN ADDITION TO THIS SORT OF STUFF IT WAS A DUNGEON. I MEAN, THERE WAS NO POLITICALOPPOSITION ALLOWED. ANY OPPOSITION TO THE GOVERNMENT IS CONSIDERED TREASON INTURKMENISTAN.

Moyers: SO YOU WANTED TO SEE IF THERE WAS AN AMERICAN LOBBYING FIRM THAT WOULD WORK FOR THAT KIND OF GOVERNMENT?EXACTLY.

Moyers: YOU WENT TO TWO FIRMS, APCO AND CASSIDY ASSOCIATES. WHAT DID YOU KNOW ABOUT APCO? WELL, THESE FIRMS WEREN'TPICKED ENTIRELY BY... BY CHANCE. I MEAN, APCO, WE WANTED TO PICK FIRMS THAT HAD A REPUTATION OF WORKING FOR DICTATORSHIPS AND ALSO FIRMS THAT HAD A HISTORY OFSOMEWHAT DUPLICITOUS PRACTICES, AND ALSO FIRMS THAT HAD SOME EXPERIENCE IN THE CASPIAN REGION, WHERE TURKMENISTAN ISLOCATED.

Moyers: THE BIG OIL REGION OF THE WORLD. THE NEW... YEAH. THE NEW BIG ENERGY REGION.

Moyers: YEAH. RIGHT. SO APCO IN THE 1990s WORKED FOR THE SANI ABACHA DICTATORSHIPIN NIGERIA. THIS WAS, AT THAT TIME, ONE OF THE WORLD'S WORST REGIMES.

Moyers: THAT USED TO HANG DEMOCRATIC DISSIDENTS, RIGHT? AND IN FACT, APCO WAS WORKING FOR THEM AS THEY WERE PREPARINGTHE EXECUTION OF THESE NINE PRO-DEMOCRACY ACTIVISTS THAT WERE HUNG IN 1995. THEY ALSO HAVE WORKED FORKAZAKHSTAN, WHERE THE PRESIDENT RECENTLY EFFECTIVELY DECLARED HIMSELF PRESIDENT FOR LIFE. THEY'VE WORKED IN AZERBAIJAN, WHICH ANOTHER ENERGY RICH DICTATORIAL REGIME IN THE CASPIAN REGION.

Moyers: THE DETAILS ARE ALL IN "HARPER'S," BUT LET ME READ YOU ONE OF THE E-MAILS THAT CAME TO YOU FROM BARRY SCHUMACHER. WHO IS BARRY SCHUMACHER? HE'S AN EXECUTIVE VICEPRESIDENT OF APCO ASSOCIATES.

Moyers: HE SAYS "WE'RE A PUBLIC AFFAIRS AND STRATEGIC COMMUNICATE FIRM SPECIALIZING INCOUNTRY REPRESENTATION IN PARTICULAR.WE'VE WORKED ON IMAGE, POLICY, FOREIGN INVESTMENT AND REPUTATION ISSUES FOR A HOST OF GOVERNMENTS, INCLUDING ISRAEL,ROMANIA, SINGAPORE, POLAND, HUNGARY, TURKEY, ALL LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENTS. WE'VE ALSO WORKED FOR PRIVATE SECTOR INTERESTS.ONE OF OUR PROFESSIONALS IS FORMED AMBASSADOR ELIZABETH JONES, WHO HAD BEEN THE AMBASSADOR TO KAZAKHSTAN. OTHER KEY PEOPLE INCLUDE FORMER SENATOR DON RIEGLE, FORMER CONGRESSMAN DON BONKER, FORMERAMBASSADOR MARC GINSBERG. WE ALSO HAVE STRENGTHS IN THE COMMUNICATIONS WORLD HAVING ON STAFF THE FORMED DEPUTY PRESSSECRETARY TO PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, AND THEHEAD OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS FOR THE C.I.A." I MEAN, THEY WERE WOOING YOU WITH THEIR CONNECTIONS. THIS WAS ONE OF THEIR BIGSELLING POINTS. BOTH THE FIRMS BRAGGED ABOUT HOW WELL CONNECTED THEY WERE ANDTHEY EACH TALKED ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, OTHER FIRMS MIGHT BOAST ABOUT THEIR CONNECTIONS, BUT NOBODY COULD REALLY DO IT THE WAY THEY COULD. AND THEY TALKED ABOUT HAVING CONNECTIONS ACROSS THE BOARD IN CONGRESS AT... WITH KEY STAFFERS, WITH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AT THE STATEDEPARTMENT. AND THEY KEPT TROTTING OUT THESE NAMES OF FORMER GOVERNMENTOFFICIALS, AND FORMER MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO COULD OPEN DOORS FOR ME, BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, THEIR PAST EXPERIENCE ON CAPITOLHILL OR IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

Moyers: YOU DESCRIBE AN INTERESTING MEETING AT APCO WHEN ONE OF THE OTHER LOBBYIST BRAGS ABOUT THE TIES OF ONE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. YEAH, BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN LAYING OUT HOW, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT ALL THESE PEOPLE ON STAFF,AND THEY WERE LISTING A NUMBER OF DEMOCRATS. AND I SAID, "WELL, THAT'S GREAT,BUT DON'T WE HAVE... NEED TIES TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS WELL?" AND THE... BARRY SCHUMACHER SAID TO ME THAT JENNIFER... JENNIFER DYCK, WHO WAS A FORMERSPOKESWOMAN FOR THE C.I.A. AND FOR VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY, HE JOKED, "SHE'S SO WELL CONNECTED WITH THE REPUBLICANS THAT SHE'SWORTH SIX OF OUR DEMOCRATS." SO YEAH, THIS WAS ALL, YOU KNOW, A BIG GAME. THEY HAD CONNECTIONS ACROSS THE BOARD AND THEY COULD OPEN DOORS FOR ME. NO PROBLEM.

Moyers: AND THEY SAY THEY COULD... THEY WOULD SEEK TO ARRANGE EVENTS HIGHLIGHTING TURKMENISTAN WITH LEADING U.S. THINK TANKS. AND THEY SAID WE WOULD TARGET HERITAGE FOUNDATION, CONSERVATIVE, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONALSTUDIES-- WHICH IS A CENTRIST TO RIGHT GROUP; COUNCIL FOREIGN RELATIONS-- AN ESTABLISHMENT GROUP; BROOKINGS, LIBERAL GROUP, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT, A VERYRESPECTED INSTITUTION THERE INWASHINGTON. I MEAN, ARE THEY JUST MAKINGTHIS UP, DO YOU THINK? NO, THAT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE MAKING UP. I THINK LOTS OF... BASED ON, YOU KNOW, REPORTING I'VE DONE IN THEPAST, I THINK THESE LOBBYIST HAVE PRETTY GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH A VARIETY OF THINK TANKS AROUND TOWN. THEY WERE VERY CLEAR TO ME. THEY SAID THAT THEY COULD UTILIZE SOME ACADEMICS AND THINK TANK EXPERTS.NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE ABLE TO SORT OF PUT TOGETHER OP-EDS AND RECRUIT OP-EDS FROM... FROM THESE FOLKS AND I THINK THAT IS TRUE. THEY'RE, I MEAN, I LIVE INWASHINGTON. EVERYDAY THERE ARE EVENTS HELD AROUND TOWN. AND NOW I WONDER, IS THIS PUT TOGETHER BY A LOBBYING FIRM? OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT REALLY GREW SPONTANEOUSLY OUT OF THE INTEREST OF THE... OF THE THINK TANK? YOU JUST DON'T KNOW. IT'S THE SAME WITH THE OP-EDS. WHO REALLY WROTE IT?

Moyers: IN THEIR POWERPOINT PRESENTATION, THE APCO TEAM TOLD SILVERSTEIN THAT NOW ISTURKMENISTAN'S MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT SINCE INDEPENDENCE. THERE ARE ONLY ABOUT TEN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO COULD FINDTURKMENISTAN ON A MAP, AND THAT NO ONE IS LOOKING FOR PERFECTION ON DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS REFORMS. WITH APCO ASSOCIATES I WENT IN AND, YOU KNOW, WE SAT IN A CONFERENCE ROOM AND THEY MADE THE INTRODUCTIONS AND THEY SAID, LET'S GO THROUGH THIS POWERPOINT PRESENTATION, AND THEY SHOWED IT ON THE SCREEN. AND YOU KNOW, THEY WENT THROUGH, FIRST AGAIN, HOW WELL CONNECTED THEY WERE. THEY TROTTED OUT THE BIG... THE BIG HEAVY HITTERS AT THE FIRM. THE LISTED SOME OF THE GOVERNMENTS THAT THEY HAD WORKED FOR IN THE PAST. AND THEN THEY STATED TO, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY COULD DO ON BEHALF OF THE MALDON GROUP. AND YOU KNOW, THEY SAID SETTING UP A MEETING WITH A GOVERNMENTOFFICIAL FROM A VISITING OFFICIAL FROM TURKMENISTAN. NO PROBLEM, WE CAN ARRANGE THAT. WE CAN GET THEM IN THE DOOR, AND GET HIGH LEVEL MEETINGS FOR THAT OFFICIAL IN WASHINGTON. WE'LL DO A MEDIA CAMPAIGN, WE'LL CREATE MEDIA EVENTS AND WE'LL, YOU KNOW, WE'LL WRITE AND FIND SIGNATORIES FOR AND PLANT THESE OP-EDS IN THE NEWSPAPER.THEN THEY ALSO SAID THAT THEY WOULD HOLD EVENTS ON CAPITOL HILL OR IN WASHINGTON FOR ME WHERE THEY WOULD PROMOTE THEGOVERNMENT OF TURKMENISTAN. AND THEY SAID, THOUGH THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T WANT IT REALLY TO LOOK LIKE PAID ADVERTISING. SO THEY WOULD FIND THEIMPRIMATUR OF A RESPECTED THIRD PARTY, THEY SAID, SO IT WOULD LOOK LIKE AN INDEPENDENT EVENT.

Moyers: AND WHY WERE YOU DRAWN TO CASSIDY AND ASSOCIATES? WELL, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'TWANT TO CHOOSE SORT OF FLY BY NIGHT FIRMS.WE DIDN'T WANT TO SAY, OH, WE WENT TO SORT OF THESE, YOU KNOW, FIRMS THAT COULD BE EXPECTED TO TAKE ANY CLIENT, BECAUSE THEY'RE SO HARD UP FOR MONEY. CASSIDY IS MAYBE THE BIGGEST LOBBY SHOP IN TOWN. IT'S GENERATED MORE LOBBYING REVENUE THAN ANY OTHER FIRM. SO, THAT WAS ONE THING.

Moyers: FOUNDED BY A FORMER ASSISTANT TO SENATOR GEORGE McGOVERN, THE DEMOCRAT...LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FORPRESIDENT IN 1972. RIGHT. AND LIKE ALL GOOD LOBBYING FIRMS THOUGH, THEY'VE SORT OF, I MEAN, ACTUALLY THEY SAID TO ME-- 'CAUSE I ASKED THEM-- "DO YOU HAVE CONNECTIONS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE?" AND THEY SAID, "SURE, WE MIRROR THE POWER STRUCTURE." SO IN RECENT YEARS THE FIRM... IT STARTED AS A DEMOCRATIC FIRM. IT'S BECOME MUCH MORE OF A REPUBLICAN FIRM BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MIRRORING THE POWER STRUCTURE.

Moyers: YOU MET GREGG HARTLEY, WHO'S THE VICE CHAIR OF CASSIDY. TELL ME ABOUT HIM. HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE TEAM, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. I MEAN, HE CAME IN AND HE WASDEFINITELY THE GROUP LEADER. HE WORKED UNTIL A FEW YEARS AGO FOR ROY BLUNT

Moyers: VERY POWERFUL MEMBER OF THE... OF CONGRESS. A VERY POWERFUL MEMBER OFCONGRESS, HE HAD WORKED FOR HIM FOR MANY YEARS. AND HARTLEY, YOU KNOW, TALKED TO ME ABOUT HOW CLOSE HIS TIES WERE WITH THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP. AND IN FACT, IN THAT PROPOSAL THEY SENT TO ME AFTER MY MEETING, THEY CONTACTED ME. THEY WERE SO EAGER TO DO THE WORK THAT THEY WANTED TO HAVEANOTHER CONFERENCE CALL. AND THEN THEY SAID WE'D LIKE TO SEND YOU A PROPOSAL, AND ISAID...

Moyers: SO, THEY WERE EAGER FOR THE BUSINESS? THEY WERE VERY EAGER FOR THEBUSINESS.

Moyers: THEY KNEW IT WAS TURKMENISTAN?THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

Moyers: THEY KNEW ABOUT TURKMENISTAN.CORRUPT, REPRESSIVE, BUT THEY WERE EAGER?THEY WERE VERY EAGER. BOTH OF THESE FIRMS WERE VERY EAGER. AND IF YOU LOOK AT THEIRPROPOSALS, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE E-MAILS THAT THEY SENT ME AFTER OUR MEETINGS WHERE THEY KEPT SAYING, "WELL, ARE YOUGOING TO HIRE US OR NOT? WE'D LIKE TO SEE YOU AGAIN." APCO ASSOCIATES, BARRYSCHUMACHER SAID, "I'M COMING TO LONDON. I'D LIKE TO MEET YOU BEFORE YOU MAKE A DECISION, AND TALK TO YOU MORE ABOUT OUR FIRM." CASSIDY CONTACTED ME AND SAID, "WE WANT TO SEND YOU THIS PROPOSAL." THEY WERE VERY EAGER TO DO THE WORK, AND I THINK ANYBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE E-MAILS AND THEPROPOSALS WILL NOT HAVE ANY DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

Moyers: CASSIDY AND ASSOCIATES BOASTED OF THEIR SUCCESS IN ENDING THE U.S. EMBARGO OF VIETNAM. YEAH. I MEAN, THIS... YEAH, THEYREALLY... THEY GAVE ME ABOUT EIGHT OR NINE OR TEN CASE STUDIES OF... OF SOME OF THEIRPAST ACHIEVEMENTS. WITH VIETNAM, YOU KNOW, FOR A LONG TIME OBVIOUSLY FOLLOWING THE WAR, THE RELATIONSHIPS... THE RELATIONSHIP WITH VIETNAM WAS VERY TENSE. THERE WAS NO RELATIONSHIP TO SPEAK OF FOR MANY YEARS.AND IN THEIR MATERIALS TO ME AND IN OUR MEETINGS THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW THEY HAD SUCCESSFULLY ENDED THE EMBARGO ON VIETNAM. THEY HAD PUT TOGETHER A COALITION OF BUSINESS GROUPS THAT WANTED TO INVEST IN VIETNAM, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO END THE EMBARGO. AND THEY--

Moyers: NOT A BAD THING IS IT? YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I'LL LEAVE THAT FOR OTHERS TO DECIDE. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE TRADE WITH VIETNAM OR NOT, I MEAN, THAT'S... THAT'S A POLICY QUESTION. BUT WHAT I DID FIND INTERESTING ABOUT IT WAS THAT THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW THERE WAS OPPOSITION TO THIS, BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO OVERCOME THE OPPOSITION. THEY SAID THE FAMILIES OF M.I.A.s AND P.O.W.s DIDN'T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN, BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO MUSTER A COALITION THATCOULD GET CONGRESS TO DO WHAT THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY WANTED.

Moyers: THEY SAID WE CHANGED THAT POLICY, ENDED THE EMBARGO, AND OPENED VIETNAM UP TO U.S. ECONOMIC EXCHANGE. LOT OF PEOPLE GOING TO LIKE THAT. I MEAN, BUSINESS WITH VIETNAM, A COMMUNIST COUNTRY. SURE. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I... AGAIN, THIS IS A... THIS IS A POLICY DECISION. I MEAN, THERE ARE OTHERINSTANCES OF... FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN I WANTED TO TALK TO CASSIDY, ANOTHER REASON WASEQUATORIAL GUINEA. I MEAN, THIS IS ONE OF THEIR CLIENTS.

Moyers: AFRICAN COUNTRY. AN AFRICAN COUNTRY THAT PAYS CASSIDY AND ASSOCIATES ABOUT $2.4 MILLION A YEAR, THEY TOLD ME. NOW THIS IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S RAT HOLE REGIMES. THIS IS, AGAIN, THIS IS GETTINGPRETTY CLOSE TO TURKMENISTAN LEVEL. THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN IN POWER SINCE HE EXECUTED HIS UNCLE. HE'S BEEN CAUGHT EXPORTING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF REVENUEGENERATED BY AMERICAN OIL COMPANIES. FOR, YOU KNOW, HE HAD LIKE $500 MILLION AT RIGGS BANK IN WASHINGTON, D.C. UNDER HISEFFECTIVE CONTROL. I FIRST WROTE ABOUT THAT WHEN I WAS AT THE "LOS ANGELES TIMES."

Moyers: I REMEMBER THAT. AND THE SENATE INVESTIGATION CONFIRMED IT.

Moyers: AND CASSIDY REPRESENTS IT? AND CASSIDY REPRESENTS THEM.

Moyers: THE GOVERNMENT OR THE INVESTORS GROUPS? NO, IN THIS CASE IT'S WORKINGDIRECTLY FOR THE GOVERNMENT OFEQUATORIAL GUINEA.

Moyers: DID YOU ASK THEM ABOUT THAT? YEAH. I MEAN, THEY... I MEAN, THEY OFFERED IT. I MEAN, THEY WERE PROUD OF IT. THEY WERE... I MEAN, THEY SAW IT AS A SELLING POINT. YOU KNOW, LOOK WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO FOR EQUATORIAL GUINEA, THEY BRAGGED.

Moyers: WHAT DID THEY DO? WELL, THEY TOLD ME THAT FOR YEARS EQUATORIAL GUINEA HAD BEEN ON "PARADE" MAGAZINE'S LIST OF THE TEN WORST GOVERNMENTS IN THE WORLD, THE TEN WORST DICTATORS. AND GREGG HARTLEY TOLD ME THIS, AND HE ACTUALLY GRIMACED AS HE SAID THE WORD "DICTATOR." I THINK IT PAINED HIM TOACKNOWLEDGE THIS. SO HE SAID "WE GOT 'EM OFF THAT LIST." AND THEN I WENT HOME AND CHECKED "PARADE'S" LIST, AND I SAW THAT,YEAH, IT'S TRUE. THEY WERE OFF THE LIST. THEY WERE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO NUMBER 11. SO IT'S NOT AS IF... YOU KNOW, I MEAN, AND THIS IS IMAGE MANAGEMENT.

Moyers: THEY MOVED THEM OFF THE TEN WORST COUNTRIES DOWN TO NUMBER 11 ON THAT--DOWN TO NUMBER 11. SO, NO, I MEAN, THERE'S NO DISPUTE THAT IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY AWFUL, CORRUPT, THUGGISH GOVERNMENT, AND CASSIDY HAS BEEN ABLE TO WIN IT A LITTLE FAVOR IN WASHINGTON. I MEAN, THEY WERE ABLE TO ARRANGE A MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT OBIANG AND SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE.

Moyers: I REMEMBER THE PHOTOGRAPH. YEAH.THERE WAS A PICTURE OF OBIANG WITH SECRETARY OF STATE CONDOLEEZZA RICE. AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THAT PICTURE WAS SHOWN ALL OVER STATE MEDIA IN EQUATORIAL GUINEA. THERE'S NOTHING BUT STATE MEDIA,INCIDENTALLY, IN EQUATORIAL GUINEA. THERE IS NO FREE PRESS.

Moyers: SO A VISIT BY A DICTATOR, A VISIT BY A DICTATOR WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS OR THEPRESIDENT OR THE SECRETARY OF STATE GETS BIG PLAY AT HOME? IT'S WORTH LOTS OF MONEY BACK THERE? IT IS WORTH A LOT OF MONEY. IT'S LEGITIMATION. AND THAT'S THE THING ABOUT THIS. THESE, YOU KNOW, THESE LOBBYISTS... I'VE TALKED TO LOBBYISTS BEFORE ABOUT THIS. AND THEY'LL SAY, "WELL, EVERY DEFENDANT IS ENTITLED TO A LAWYER IN COURT." BUT THEY'RE NOT REPRESENTING THESE PEOPLE IN COURT.THEY ARE REPRESENTING THEM IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION AND THE COURT OF POLITICAL OPINION. AND BY REPRESENTING THEM AND TRYING TO IMPROVE THEIR IMAGE AND TO INCREASE THEIR... OR IMPROVE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, THEY'RE GIVING THEM LEGITIMACY. THEY'RE STRENGTHENING THEIR HOLD ON POWER. THEY ARE EMPOWERING DICTATORS. THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THEY DO.

Moyers: IF THEY HAD TAKEN YOU ON AS A CLIENT, WHAT WOULD IT HAVE COST YOU? WELL, APCO SAID THAT IT WOULD COST ME ABOUT $600,000 FOR THE FIRST YEAR. NOW, CASSIDY SAID THAT IT WOULD COST ME ABOUT... THEY SAID, YOU KNOW, WITH TURKMENISTAN, THERE ARE NO QUICK EASY SOLUTIONS. I MEAN, THIS IS GOING TO REQUIRE MAJOR P.R. EFFORT.

Moyers: IT'S NOT EXACTLY A MODEL OF DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS. NO, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TURN THE IMAGE AROUND OVERNIGHT. SO THEY PROPOSED A THREE-YEARDEAL, $1.2 MILLION TO $1.5 MILLION PER YEAR.AND THEN THERE'D BE EXPENSES THERE, TOO.AND THEY EVEN SAID AND BY THE WAY, YOU KNOW, IF ONE OF THESE... YOU KNOW, THEY SAIDTHAT IF ONE OF THESE DO-GOODER GROUPS, SAY, A HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP, TARGETED THE GOVERNMENT OF TURKMENISTAN AND MAYBE ISSUED A REPORT SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW,THERE WAS NO ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL REFORMS AND THE HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION REMAIN TERRIBLE, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY COST US MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEN THEY'D REQUIRE INTENSIFIED SPIN CONTROL BY THE CASSIDY PEOPLE. SO... BUT WE WERE LOOKING AT ATLEAST $5 MILLION OVER THREE YEARS.

Moyers: AS A POTENTIAL CLIENT. WE HAVE TO BE HONEST HERE, YOU HAD TO LIE TO THESE LOBBYISTS. I UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WILLHAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE UNDERCOVER TACTIC, AND I AGREE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE USEDSPARINGLY. WE FELT IN THIS CASE THAT IT WASAN ABSOLUTELY VALID USE OF THE UNDERCOVER TACTIC. WE FELT THERE WAS A PUBLIC INTEREST AT STAKE. WE FELT THAT THESE FIRMS ARE ABLE TO REALLY, YOU KNOW, VERY EASILY GET AWAY WITH MANIPULATING POLITICAL AND PUBLIC OPINION ON BEHALF OF THESE DICTATORSHIPS AND THAT THE RULES NEED TO BE TIGHTENED.SO WE THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO MAKE THAT POLITICAL POINT. THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO WAY AS WELL THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE THIS STORY BY SIMPLY ASKING THEM QUESTIONS. IF YOU GO ASK THEM, "OH, DO YOU, YOU KNOW, DO YOU SET UP BOGUS THIRD-PARTY EVENTS THAT LOOK TO BE INDEPENDENT BUT, IN FACT, AREPAID ADVERTISING FOR YOUR CLIENTS?" WHAT?ARE THEY GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT? "OH, YEAH, THERE'S ONE SCHEDULED NEXT WEEK."NO. WE COULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN THE SORT OF INFORMATION WE GOT, WE COULD NOT HAVE SHED THE LIGHT ON THIS STORY UNLESS WE DID IT IN THE WAY THAT WE DID IT.

Moyers: I OFTEN REMIND MYSELF THAT INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM IS NOT A COLLABORATION BETWEEN THE JOURNALIST AND THE SOURCE. EXACTLY. I MEAN, THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT. I MEAN, WE COULD NOT SIMPLY... YOU KNOW, WE WERE NOT PARTNERSON THIS INVESTIGATION. WE DID TRICK THEM, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE STORY THOUGH, AND I WILL ALSO SAY WE DID TRICK THEM. WE DIDN'T TRICK OUR READERS. WE WERE VERY TRANSPARENT ABOUTWHAT WE DID AND HOW WE DID IT. AND IF THE READERS FEEL THAT THEY'RE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT, THEY'RE... I GUESS THEY'RE FREE TO DISMISS THE FINDINGS. BUT WE WERE NOT... YOU KNOW, WE WERE COMPLETELY UP FRONT WITHTHE READERS ABOUT HOW WE DID THIS STORY.

Moyers: THE LOBBYISTS HAVE SAID THAT YOU REPRESENTED YOURSELF AS REPRESENTING ANINVESTOR GROUP, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. AND IF THEY HAD, YOU KNOW, THAT... THAT'S A LEGITIMATE OPERATION, TO REPRESENT ANINVESTOR GROUP. IF THEY HAD HAD MORECONVERSATIONS WITH YOU, DISCOVERED YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT, THEYWOULDN'T HAVE TOUCHED YOU. WELL, THAT'S PREPOSTEROUS. I MEAN, APCO ASSOCIATES ANDCASSIDY BOTH LAID OUT PLANS FOR ME THAT WERE COMPLETELY FOCUSED ON MAKING THE GOVERNMENT OF TURKMENISTAN LOOK BETTER AND IMPROVING IT'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES. IN FACT, THE PROPOSAL OF... THE POWERPOINT PRESENTATION THAT APCO SHOWED ME WAS A PLAN FOR TURKMENISTAN.THEY KNEW EXACTLY WHO THEY WERE WORKING FOR.

Moyers: YOU'RE NO INNOCENT. YOU'VE BEEN AROUND WASHINGTON A LONG TIME SINCE YOU CAME BACK FROM COVERING BRAZIL FOR THEASSOCIATED PRESS. ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU? I CAN'T SAY THAT I WAS ENTIRELY SHOCKED. I EXPECT IN SOME WAYS THAT THE FIRMS WHO WE APPROACHED IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE WE DID PICK SPECIFIC FIRMS TO GO TO, TO SEE IF THEY'D TAKE THE BAIT, IT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME ENTIRELY THAT THEY WERE WILLING TO WORK FOR ADICTATORSHIP. IT SURPRISED ME A LITTLE THAT I,YOU KNOW, WE PUSHED IT SO FAR I WOULDN'T EVEN TELL THEM THE NAME OF THE MAN I WORKED FOR. NO PROBLEM. SO I WAS A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT, YOU KNOW, GIVEN HOW FAR WEPUSHED IT THAT NEITHER OF THESE FIRMS DECIDED, YOU KNOW WHAT? WE BETTER TAKE A SECOND LOOK AT THIS. AND I REALLY THINK THAT THOSE FIRMS WERE BLINDED BY GREED. I THINK IF THEY HAD NOT VIEWED ME AS A BIG, GLOWING SACK OF MONEY, AND... AND HAD STOPPED TOTHINK ABOUT, SHOULD WE BE DOING THIS AND MAYBE WE BETTER CHECK THIS OUT, THEY WOULD HAVE DISCOVERED THAT THERE WASSOMETHING WRONG, AND THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN IN AS DEEP AS THEY DID.

Moyers: I CAN HEAR THE SIGHS OF DESPAIR OUT THERE FROM PEOPLE WATCHING. OKAY, IT'S AN OLD STORY. I MEAN, WE'VE LOST OURDEMOCRACY. IT... WHAT'S THE BOTTOM LINEHERE? WHAT DO PEOPLE DO? WELL, THAT'S WHY WE WROTE THIS STORY. AND THAT'S WHY WE THINK THIS STORY SERVES THE PUBLIC INTERESTAND WHY IT JUSTIFIES THE UNDERCOVER TECHNIQUE THAT WE USED, WHICH I DO KNOW ISCONTROVERSIAL. WE THINK THE RULES NEED TO BE TIGHTENED UP. WE DON'T THINK THESE FIRMSSHOULD HAVE SUCH AN EASY TIME MAKING A MOCKERY OF THE LAW. THEY DON'T... I'M NOT ACCUSING THEM OF BREAKING THE LAW, BUTTHEY CERTAINLY BREAK THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW.THEY TALKED TO ME REPEATEDLY ABOUT HOW THE DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS ARE SO WEAK THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANY UNDUE PUBLICITY. WELL, IN THE POST-ABRAMOFF CLIMATE, THEY SAID IT MIGHT BEDIFFICULT TO ARRANGE A TRIP TOTURKMENISTAN BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, BUT WE CAN PROBABLY SWING IT. APCO TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S A LOOPHOLE IN THE LAWWHERE WE CAN USE A TURKMEN UNIVERSITY TO SPONSOR THE TRIP. YOU WOULDN'T SPONSOR IT DIRECTLY 'CAUSE THAT WOULD RAISEQUESTIONS, BUT WE'LL GET A TURKMEN UNIVERSITY TO FRONT FOR THE TRIP AND WE'LL BE ABLE TO SEND A DELEGATION OVER THERE.THEY DIDN'T SAY WE'LL BREAK THE LAW, BUT IT WAS CLEAR TO ME FROM TALKING TO THEM THAT THE LAW WAS SO WEAK AND IT WAS SO EASY FORTHEM TO EVADE THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW THAT THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH THIS SORT OF STUFF. SO THAT'S THE POINT. TIGHTEN THE LAW.

Moyers: BUT IF YOU'RE CONGRESSMAN SILVERSTEIN INSTEAD OF JOURNALIST SILVERSTEIN AND YOU THINK THAT YOU MAY BELEAVING CONGRESS VOLUNTARILY ORINVOLUNTARILY IN 2008, ARE YOU GOING TO STRENGTHEN THE LAW THAT WILL PUT A HANDCUFF ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN DO WHEN YOU LEAVE AS A LOBBYIST? WELL, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. AND I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO SAY, YES, THEY SHOULD... THEY'LL BE WILLING TO DO THIS. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, AFTER THE UPROAR OVER THE ABRAMOFF SCANDAL AND SOME OF THESE OTHER LOBBYING SCANDALS OFTHE PAST FEW YEARS, CONGRESS DID FEEL COMPELLED TO TAKE ACTION. I DON'T THINK CONGRESS ACTS UNLESS IT FEELS THAT IT'S JUSTTOO EMBARRASSING TO DO NOTHING. NOW AS IT TURNED OUT, THE WHOLE REFORM EFFORT DID SORT OF FIZZLE AWAY PRECISELY FOR THE REASONS YOU RAISED: BECAUSE CONGRESSDOESN'T WANT TO REGULATE ITSELF. THEY DON'T WANT TO LIMIT THEIR FINANCIAL OPTIONS. BUT IF PEOPLE GET MAD ENOUGH ANDIT'S TOO EMBARRASSING NOT TO TAKE ACTION, THEN I THINK YOU GET MOVEMENT. THEY DID PASS SOME REFORMS IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE ABRAMOFF SCANDAL. I DON'T THINK THEY WENT FAR ENOUGH.

Moyers: I HOPE A LOT OF PEOPLE READ YOUR STORY IN "HARPER'S" AND ONLINE AT PBS.ORG.KEN SILVERSTEIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.THANK YOU. IT IS NOT EASY BEING A MAINSTREAM AMERICAN MUSLIM THESE DAYS, THE SPECTER OFRADICALISM HANGS IN THE PUBLIC MIND AND EVEN THE MOST ASSIMILATED OF BELIEVERS, THOSE BORN HERE OR IMMIGRANTS WHO CLAIMAMERICA AS THEIR OWN FACE SKEPTISM WHEREVER THEY TURN. HERE IS OUR ACCOUNT OF HOW ONE INCREASINGLY PROMINENT FIGURE IN THE COMMUNITY COPES WITH THE SKEPTICISM AND THE SCRUTNY. HIS NAME IS ZAID SHAKIR. ON A RECENT SATURDAY AT A MOSQUEIN BROOKLYN, NEW YORK, HUNDREDS OF MUSLIMS GATHERED TO HEAR ONE OF THE RISING STARS IN THEIR FAITH. MANY PEOPLE ACT LIKE THIS IS THE WORST THAT THE MUSLIMS HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED. YOU KNOW, IN AMERICA IT'S LIKE: "I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!"TAKE WHAT? "PEOPLE LOOKING AT ME. YOU KNOW, THAT LOOK!" MAN, PEOPLES HOMES ARE BEING BLOWN UP AND YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT THAT LOOK? YOU WANT TO DE-FUSE THAT LOOK?JUST WAVE.

( LAUGHTER ) SERIOUSLY, JUST WAVE AND BLOW A KISS.

( LAUGHTER ) AND THEN START RUNNING TOWARDS THEM IN SLOW MOTION.

( LAUGHTER ) THAT LOOK WILL GO AWAY REALFAST.

( LAUGHTER )

Moyers: IMAM ZAID SHAKIR IS ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR MUSLIM TEACHERS IN AMERICA TODAY.WE ALL CAME FROM SOMEWHERE TO THIS ROOM, TODAY. PROBABLY FIVE YEARS AGO, A GOODPERCENTAGE OF US WOULDN'T BE AT A SIMILAR GATHERING, THIS TYPE OF GATHERING. WE ALL HAVE OUR HISTORIES. AND FOR MANY OF US, IT WAS A VERY INVOLVED SEARCH. NOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO BACK TO THAT CONFUSED STATE THAT ALLAH RESCUED YOU FROM? I DON'T THINK MANY WILL. REMEMBER WHERE YOU CAME FROM,AND REMEMBER WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO GO.

Moyers: I FIRST MET ZAID SHAKIR FIVE YEARS AGO, WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM SOON AFTERSEPTEMBER 11 WHEN AMERICA WAS SCRAMBLING TO LEARN ALL WE COULD ABOUT ISLAM. HIS HOME IS HERE IN CALIFORNIA. HE'S A SCHOLAR-IN-RESIDENCE AT THE ZAYTUNA INSTITUTE, A MUSLIM GRADUATE SCHOOL FOR STUDENTSFROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THE GRADUATE PROGRAM IS STILL IN ITS INFANCY, WITH A HANDFUL FULL-TIME SEMINARY STUDENTS, ANDGENERAL CLASSES ATTENDED BY SEVERAL HUNDRED. MOST IMAMS WORKING IN AMERICAARE FOREIGN BORN, ENLISTED BY AMERICAN MOSQUES TO TUTOR THE GROWING MUSLIM POPULATION IN THIS COUNTRY. FOR MOST OF THEM, AMERICA IS A WHOLLY NEW EXPERIENCE.BUT NOT IMAM SHAKIR. HE WAS BORN RICKY MITCHELL, RAISED BY A SINGLE MOM IN ABAPTIST FAMILY IN INNER-CITY HOUSING PROJECTS. ON THIS EXPEDITION TOWARD ISLAM,WERE YOU LOOKING BACK OVER YOUR SHOULDER AT THAT EXPERIENCE IN THE SEGREGATED PROJECT? NOT REALLY, MORE LOOKING AHEAD.IN A SENSE, LET ME REPHRASE THAT. I THINK NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, YES, BECAUSE A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS, THERE ARE SOCIALPROBLEMS THERE, I WAS SEEKING AN ANSWER FOR. SO THE BROKEN HOMES, THE ALCOHOLISM, THE DRUG ABUSE. SO ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL EXPERIENCES FOR ME DURING THATTIME, I WAS ACTUALLY AT A PARTY AT ANOTHER PROJECT. THIS PROJECT IS CALLED MOUNTPLEASANT, IT WAS IN NEW BRITAIN. IT WAS PROBABLY THE HARDEST ONE. AND, THERE WAS...

Moyers: THE ROUGHEST? THE ROUGHEST? THE ROUGHEST, THE ROUGHEST. AND I WAS LEAVING, AND THERE... IT WAS REALLY COLD. THIS WAS PRE-GLOBAL WARMING CONNECTICUT, SO IT WAS REAL COLD. AND A YOUNG, PROBABLY TEN-YEAR-OLD LITTLE PUERTO RICAN GIRL, SHE RAN OUT OF HER HOUSE SCREAMING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN THE COLD, "WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LOVE ME? WHY DOESN'T ANYONE LOVE ME?" AND THAT REALLY AFFECTED ME, AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO AVOID A CHILD REACHING THIS POINT AT TEN-YEARS-OLD. SO THAT REALLY, REALLY AFFECTEDME.

Moyers: YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK, "SCATTERED PICTURES," THAT YOU ONCE HELD A BITTER CONTEMPT FOR THE LAND OF YOUR BIRTH, FORAMERICA. ABSOLUTELY.

Moyers: WHY WAS THAT? JUST GROWING UP A SO-CALLED ETHNIC MINORITY IN AN AMERICA,SEEING HOW SYSTEMATICALLY PEOPLE ARE PLACED IN A CONTEXT THAT DOES NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR SUCCESS. THAT TENDS TO MAKE YOU BITTER. SEEING PEOPLE GUNNED DOWN BY THE POLICE AND THERE'S NOT EVEN ANINVESTIGATION INTO WHY THEY WERE SHOT.THAT MAKES PEOPLE BITTER. AND I THINK IT'S THE GRACE OF GOD TO BE ABLE TO TRANSCENDTHAT. AND I'M SURE SOME OF THAT, SOMEVESTIGES OF THAT ARE STILL IN ME. I MEAN, WE ARE A PRODUCT OF OUR PAST AND OUR HISTORIES.

Moyers: WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THAT BITTERNESS? I HAD TO LEARN TO COME TO GRIPS WITH IT AND CHANNEL IT IN CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS. I NEVER CHALLENGED IT IN DESTRUCTIVE WAYS. I DON'T HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD.

Moyers: YOU WERE RAISED BY YOUR MOTHER AND WHAT, SIX OTHER CHILDREN. SIX OTHER.

Moyers: TELL ME ABOUT YOUR MOTHER, BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT HER OFTEN IN YOUR BOOK. I THINK SHE WAS A VERY DEEP AND STRONG LADY.SHE WAS A EPILEPTIC, WHICH WE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME. SHE HID IT FROM US, AND ALL OFHER SEIZURES WERE NOCTURNAL, SO WE NEVER SAW IT. WE WOULD SEE THE EFFECTS OF IT IN THE MORNING, AND SHE WOULD JUST DISMISS IT."OH, I HAD A BAD NIGHT. I COULDN'T SLEEP, INSOMNIA." SO WE DIDN'T KNOW THIS BATTLESHE WAS WAGING. SHE SACRIFICED AND SHE FOCUSED ON US AND SHE WAS JUST WAS THEEPITOME OF THE STRONG BLACK MOTHER WHO GAVE HER ALL TO HER CHILDREN.

Moyers: HIS MOTHER WAS ALSO A WRITER, AND SHAKIR AND HIS SIX BROTHERS AND SISTERS HAVE JUST PUBLISHED HER MEMOIR. SHE WAS EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT. SHE PROBABLY UNDER OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD HAVE HAD ABRILLIANT COLLEGE CAREER, AND COULD HAVE BEEN ANY NUMBER OF THINGS IN THIS SOCIETY.SO THAT'S WHERE IT CAME FROM, THIS INTELLECT, A LOVE FOR READING, AND A VERY RICH AND WIDE LITERARY BASE.

Moyers: WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE WOULD THINK-- AND A HARD LIFE.

Moyers: AND A HARD LIFE. WHAT DO YOU THINK SHE WOULD THINK OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW? I THINK SHE WOULD VIEW IT FAVORABLY.

Moyers: AS A YOUNG MAN, SHAKIR TURNED AWAY FROM CHRISTIANITY AND TRIED ON VARIOUS WORLD-VIEWS AND THEOLOGIES. NOTHING STUCK. THEN IN 1975, AFTER HIS MOTHER'SDEATH, HE DROPPED OUT OF COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND JOINED THE AIR FORCE. THERE, IN UNIFORM, HE FOUND ISLAM. YOU MOVED OUT OF THE BAPTIST FRAME AND YOU TRIEDTRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION, YOU TRIED COMMUNISM, YOU TRIED A LOT OF THINGS, AND FINALLY SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT... THAT ATTRACTED YOU TO ISLAM. WHAT WAS IT? I THINK A LOT OF ELEMENTS IN VARIOUS SYSTEMS AND THEOLOGIES THAT I STUDIED BEFORE ISLAM ANDFOUND THEM LACKING FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, ISLAM ADDRESSED ALL OF THEM, ALL OF THOSE ISSUES AND BROUGHT THEM ALL TOGETHER. SO, IT HAD THE--

Moyers: HOW SO? HELP ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT WAS IT? SO I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. IT HAD THE SPIRITUALITY OFTRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION THROUGH WHAT WE CALL "VICAR" AND KORAN RECITATION-- THINGS THAT ARE VERY SOOTHING TO THE SOUL.BUT IT ALSO HAD A SOCIAL ACTIVISM COMPONENT THAT TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION DIDN'T HAVE. IT HAD THE SOCIAL ACTIVISM OF THE COMMUNISTS WITH GOD. SO A LOT OF THINGS THAT WERE ABSENT IN THOSE THINGS I STUDIED BEFORE ISLAM WERE PRESENT IN ISLAM, AND THEY WERE BROUGHT TOGETHER IN A VERY INTEGRATED WAY THAT LED ME TO BELIEVE PERSONALLY THAT THIS IS FROM GOD.

Moyers: SO THERE WASN'T A MOMENT AN "AH-HA!" MOMENT, YOU KNOW, PAUL ON HIS HORSE, KNOCKED OFF HIS HORSE BY A BLINDING LIGHT?NO, I WASN'T ON THE ROAD TO HARTFORD, NOT AT ALL. IT WAS DEFINITELY JUST EXPLORATION AND INQUIRY AND THAT LED TO A CERTAIN CONCLUSION.

Moyers: THE SCHOLARLY LIFE APPEALED TO HIM.HE GRADUATED WITH HONORS FROM AMERICAN UNIVERSITY, GOT A MASTERS IN POLITICAL SCIENCE FROM RUTGERS, AND WENT ON TOSTUDY AT SOME OF THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS ISLAMIC SCHOOLS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. HE NOW LIVES WITH HIS WIFE AND TEENAGE SON IN OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA, NEAR THE ZAYTUNAINSTITUTE. HE MET SALIAH WHEN BOTH WERE INTHE AIR FORCE. THEY STUDIED THE FAITH TOGETHER. AFTER MORNING PRAYERS AT 6:00A.M., SHAKIR DRIVES HIS SON SAYEED TO SCHOOL USING THE TIME TO REMIND HIM TO KEEP THE FAITH.

( CHANTING ) HE'S A MUSLIM AND HE WILLDESCRIBE HIMSELF AS HIS OWN MUSLIM. HE DOESN'T SMOKE, HE DOESN'T DRINK, HE DOESN'T EAT PORK, HE DOESN'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

Moyers: HE'S A REAL UN- AMERICAN, RIGHT? NO, I WOULD SAY, NOWADAYS, HE'S VERY AMERICAN.

Moyers: I'M JUST TEASING. YOU KNOW, WE'RE A CONSUMERIST CULTURE. HE'S A CONSUMER.

Moyers: HE'S A CONSUMER. HE'S A THOROUGH CONSUMER. WHO IS THIS? TYSON. TYSON?SOUND GOOD? YEAH. NIKE AND REEBOK HAVE A GOOD CUSTOMER IN SAYEED. HE CAN OPEN HIS OWN SNEAKER STORE. DO THE RIGHT THING. ALL RIGHT BUDDY-BUDDY BE STRONG. AND DON'T WEAR THAT SILLY HAT. I'M SERIOUS! DEFINITELY A LOT OF CHALLENGES RAISING A TEENAGER HERE IN THE WEST BECAUSE THERE ARE STRONGCULTURAL INFLUENCES THAT SOME OF THEM THAT I THINK MOST MUSLIMS WOULDN'T SEE AS BEING THE HEALTHIEST THINGS. SO YOU DO YOUR BEST, AND YOU CAN'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY. YOU CAN'T GET OBSESSED WITHPERFECTION. PERFECTION IS FOR GOD, AND IT'STHAT SIMPLE.

Moyers: WHICH IS STRONGER IN

AMERICA: CULTURE OR FAITH? I THINK AS THE AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY ITSELF BECOMEMORE INTEGRATED AND MORE MATURE, FAITH WILL PROBABLY TRUMP CULTURE. AND YOU HAVE A NEW CULTURE EMERGING. YOU HAVE AN AMERICAN MUSLIM CULTURE EMERGING, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN GET A UNIQUE UNDERSTANDING OF THE RELIGION THAT WOULD ALLOW THE AMERICAN MUSLIM TO TAKE HIS OR HER RIGHTFUL PLACE AMONGSTTHE VARIOUS MUSLIM COMMUNITIES OF THE WORLD.

Moyers: HOW DO YOU DEFINE THAT AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY? WHAT'S IT'S PROFILE? IT'S PROFILE IS AFRICAN AMERICANS, BUT INCREASINGLY LARGE NUMBERS OF LATINOAMERICANS AND EUROPEAN, CAUCASIAN AMERICANS, AND IMMIGRANTS PROBABLY THE LARGEST SEGMENT OF THE IMMIGRANTCOMMUNITY BEING SOUTH ASIANS. AND COLLECTIVELY I THINK YOU'LL SEE A COMMON AMERICAN ISLAMIC CULTURE EMERGE. IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.

Moyers: IN HIS TEACHINGS, SHAKIR HELPS HIS FELLOW MUSLIMS BRIDGE THE GAP BETWEEN THE TRADITIONS OF ISLAM AND THE REALITIES OF LIFE IN AMERICA. YOU CAN SEE THE CHALLENGE HE FACES MOST CLEARLY IN THEQUESTIONS HE GETS OVER THE ROLE OF WOMEN."CAN YOU PLEASE CLARIFY WHETHER ALLAH SAYS THAT WOMEN ARE COMMANDED TO STAY IN THEHOUSE, OR SHOULD I QUIT MY JOB?" I MEAN, LOOK AT THIS. WHO IS TEACHING THIS SISTERISLAM? PLEASE CLARIFY. IT IS A VERYCONTROVERSIAL ISSUE.

Moyers: IT'S A VERY CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE.POPULAR MAGAZINES AND BOOKS OFTEN REPORT ON THE HARSH TREATMENT INFLICTED ON WOMEN IN SOME MUSLIM COUNTRIES. DOES THE KORAN APPROVE MEN BEATING THEIR WIVES? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Moyers: WHAT ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE, "AND AS FOR THOSE WOMEN WHOSE ILL WILL YOU HAVEREASON TO FEAR, ADMONISH THEM, THEN LEAVE THEM ALONE IN BED, THEN BEAT THEM, AND IF THEREUPON THEY PAY YOU HEED, DO NOT SEEKTO HARM THEM, BEHOLD GOD IS INDEED, MOST HIGH, GREAT." I MEAN, THAT'S CLEARLY A RULEWRITTEN BY MEN FOR MEN BECAUSE IT DOES GIVE PERMISSION TO BEAT THEM. NO, THAT'S NOT PERMISSION. THERE, IF YOU TAKE THAT VERSE OUT OF ANY MEANINGFUL CONTEXT,ESPECIALLY OUT OF ANY EXEGETICAL CONTEXT, AND IT... A PERSON WHO WOULD DO THAT AS A MUSLIM AND USED THAT TO JUSTIFY BEATING HISWIFE, WE WILL BEAT HIS WIFE ANYWAY, BECAUSE HE IS A PATHOLOGICAL LUNATIC, MANIAC.

Moyers: BUT SOME MEN HAVE INTERPRETED IT DIFFERENTLY. AND WHAT I'M SAYING, THOSE MEN, THAT MINORITY OF MEN WHO WOULD INTERPRET IT DIFFERENTLY, THEY DON'T NEED THAT VERSE TO JUSTIFY BEATING THEIR WIVES. THAT VERSE ISN'T IN THE BIBLE, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF MEN WHO BEAT THEIR WIVES BECAUSE THEYHAVE CERTAIN PATHOLOGIES ANDDYSFUNCTIONS THAT WILL LEAD THEM TO DO THAT ANYWAY.

Moyers: THAT'S TRUE, BUT IT'S ONE THING TO DO IT WITH THE SANCTION OF-- WELL, IF ANYONE DOES IT, THEY HAVE NO SANCTION FROM GOD OR THE KORAN.

Moyers: WHILE SHAKIR BELIEVES THAT THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE THE INTERPRETATION OF ISLAM HAS BEEN DISTORTED, HE'S EQUALLYPREPARED TO DEFEND WHAT HE SAYS ARE SETTLED TRADITIONS. I WAS FRANKLY, SURPRISED, I MEAN, I KNOW YOU'VE SPENT SOMANY YEARS BECOMING A SCHOLAR OF THE FAITH, BUT I WAS SURPRISED THAT AS AMERICAN AS YOU ARE, YOU, YOURSELF CONCLUDE THATISLAMIC LAW DOES NOT PERMIT WOMEN TO LEAD PRAYER IN A MIXED CONGREGATION. THAT'S THE CONCLUSION THAT I UNDERSTAND. PRAYER LEADERSHIP, THAT IS PART OF RELIGIOUS RITUAL.AND SO THERE ARE CERTAIN RITUALS THAT HAVE CERTAIN FORMS THAT A MAJORITY OF SCHOLARS FEEL SHOULD BE CONDUCTED IN CERTAIN WAYS.

Moyers: IT SEEMS TO BE LOGICAL TO CONCLUDE, THAT FOR ISLAM TO BECOME A... A TRULYDYNAMIC RELIGION IN AMERICAN CULTURE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO JETTISON, IN TIME, THE TETHER TO THAT ANCIENT... THOSE ANCIENTTRADITIONS THAT GREW UP IN A VERY PATERNALISTIC SOCIETY 1,000 YEARS AGO. ISN'T THAT RIGHT? TO BECOME AN AMERICAN RELIGION, IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR SOCIETY,WITH ITS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ITS WOMEN'S MOVEMENT AND ITS DRIVE TOWARDEQUALITY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SAY, "WE HAVE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN DESTINY HERE," MORE CLOSELY TO AMERICAN DYNAMICS THAN TO1,000 YEARS AGO IN THE MIDDLE EAST. I THINK THE BIGGER CHALLENGE IS TO WORK ALL OF THAT OUT, AND MORE CLOSELY IN LINE WITH OURUNIVERSAL HUMAN VALUES AND BELIEFS. THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS THE TRUTH. WE ARE FREE TO PURSUE THE TRUTH. AND IF OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE TRUE IS ANTITHETICAL WITH A PARTICULAR SET OF VALUES OR PRINCIPLES, AT A PARTICULAR TIME AND PLACE, THEN THAT DOESN'T ALTER WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE TRUE. 100 YEARS AGO, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION,BECAUSE THE VALUES IN AMERICAN SOCIETY WOULDN'T BE CONDUCIVE TO US HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

Moyers: WELL, THE SUFFRAGETTES WERE MAKING THIS CASE. OKAY.

Moyers: THEY WERE. THAT'S, BUT THEY WERE... BUT WE PROBABLY--

Moyers: THEY WERE STILL HEMMED IN, THEY WERE TETHERED, THEY WERE BARRICADED FROM-- BUT MUSLIM WOMEN AREN'T HEMMED IN, HEMMED IN, TETHERED AND BARRICADED. HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, MUSLIM WOMEN ARE FUNCTIONING AT EVERY LEVEL IN THIS SOCIETY.

Moyers: I REALLY, I WANT TO SEND YOU E-MAILS.WE WILL GET TO THIS CONVERSATION. THE TEST ISN'T WHAT THE E- MAILS WE GET. I WOULD SAY YOU SHOULD GO OUT AND TALK TO SOME MUSLIM WOMEN, AND ASK THEM IF THEY FEEL HEMMED IN AND TETHERED BY THEIRUNDERSTANDING OF THEIR RELIGION.

Moyers: WE MET WITH SOME WOMEN AT THE ZAYTUNA INSTITUTE, AND THEY TOLD US THEY ARE FULLY AT HOME IN THE FAITH AND INAMERICA. I THINK BEING AN AMERICAN ANDBEING A MUSLIM GO HAND-IN-HAND, JUST LIKE BEING A PERSON OF ANY FAITH AND BEING AN AMERICAN. THAT'S WHAT THIS COUNTRY WASFOUNDED ON-- THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION. AND I THINK THAT'S WHY A LOT OF MUSLIMS CAME HERE. THAT'S WHY MY FAMILY CAME HERE. WITH MANY MUSLIM COUNTRIES, AND WITHIN DIFFERENT CULTURES, WOMEN ARE SUBJUGATED TO A CERTAIN STATUS AND THAT CERTAIN THINGS ARE FORCED UPON THEM IN A FEW COUNTRIES.BUT WE HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM IN THE U.S. IN OUR OWN BACKYARD THERE IS OPPRESSION OF WOMEN. I MEAN, THAT IS A GLOBAL PROBLEM.WOMEN ARE OPPRESSED. BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO TAKE A FEW STORIES AND SAY, "WELL, LOOK, THIS IS WHAT THE ENTIRE CULTURE IS LIKE. YOU KNOW, ALL THE MUSLIM WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY ARE TREATED LIKE THAT."BECAUSE THAT'S NOT TRUE. THERE ARE STEREOTYPES ON BOTH ENDS AND THERE ARE FEARS ON BOTH ENDS. AND THE FEARS AND STEREOTYPES ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. AS AN AMERICAN MUSLIM, I FEEL LIKE I'M AN AMBASSADOR BETWEEN THE WEST AND THE MUSLIM WORLD. YOU KNOW, I WALK INTO STORES, AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE... PEOPLELOOK AT ME. GOING TO A MALL, PEOPLEDEFINITELY TURN THEIR HEADS TO LOOK AT ME AND LOOK AND SEE, YOU KNOW, WHY IS SHE WEARING THAT? OR, YOU KNOW, I GET LOOKS OFQUESTION. I THINK WHAT WE HAVE TO REALLY TRY TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT EVERY CULTURE HAS PARAMETERS FOR MODESTY, YOU KNOW? I MEAN, WE HAVE A SENSE OF MODESTY IN THIS CULTURE AND THERE'S A DIFFERENT SENSE OFMODESTY PERHAPS IN FRANCE OR, YOU KNOW, OR INDIA OR EVERY DIFFERENT PLACE HAS A DIFFERENT SENSE OF PARAMETERS. BUT FOR ISLAM, WHAT IT DOES IS IT SETS GUIDELINES FOR WHAT THOSE PARAMETERS ARE. AND THAT'S REALLY A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO ME AS WELL, IN TERMS OF BEING VISIBLY MUSLIM IS TO SORT OF BREAK DOWN SOME OF THESE STEREOTYPES, EVEN IF IT'S ONE PERSON AT A TIME. WE'RE ALL VERY MUCH AMERICANS. YOU KNOW, WE VOTE, WE WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND GO TO WORK JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER AMERICAN. WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT HEALTHCARE IN AMERICA AND WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SAME THING THAN ANY OTHER AMERICAN ARE CONCERNED ABOUT, AND I DON'T THINK WE DO IT A LESS THAN ANY OTHER AMERICAN DOES.

Moyers: SHAKIR REMINDS HIS YOUNG STUDENTS THAT ISLAM IS A VAST AND FLEXIBLE FAITH--DIFFERENT SOCIETIES INTERPRET IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS. SO HIS CONSTANT REFRAIN TO THEM

IS: THINK FOR YOURSELF. SOME SOCIETIES ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE. FOR EXAMPLE, SAUDI SOCIETY IS VERY CONSERVATIVE, AND PROBABLYTOO MUCH SO BECAUSE WHAT IT DOES IT BREEDS A LOT OF INCONSISTENCIES AND HYPOCRISIES AND DYSFUNCTIONS IN PEOPLE. SO WE SHOULD REALLY BE COGNIZANT OF THOSE THINGS AND NOT IMPORT OTHER PEOPLE'S SOCIETAL DYSFUNCTIONS; WE HAVE ENOUGH OFOUR OWN. DON'T ABANDON YOUR COMMON SENSE. SERIOUSLY.

Moyers: WHAT DO YOU TELL THESE YOUNG PEOPLE? SHOW PEOPLE THE FULL RANGE OFISLAMIC VALUES. DON'T LIMIT YOURSELF TO THIS OR THAT MANIFESTATION OF ISLAM THAT MIGHT BE TRUNCATED AND PEOPLE WILL APPRECIATE THAT. POSITIVE ISLAMIC VALUES.

Moyers: HOW DO YOU TELL THEM TO SQUARE THOSE VALUES WITH WHAT THEY AND WE ALL SEE SO OFTEN IN THE LAST FEW YEARS OF THE IMAMCALLING FOR JIHAD, OR SUPPORTING THE SUICIDE BOMBERS. HOW DO YOU SQUARE THOSE TWO CONTRASTING PORTRAITS OF ISLAM WITH THEM? THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE RADICAL MEMBERS IN ANY COMMUNITY, AND YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE EXTREMISTS. AND YOU KNOW, FOR A LONG TIME THIS SORT OF RADICAL MESSAGE HAD IT'S APPEAL TO ME, MYSELF. BUT I--

Moyers: THE RADICAL MESSAGE FROM ISLAM?RIGHT. BUT I THINK THOUGH IT'S VERYIMPORTANT TO SEE TO WHAT EXTENT THAT IS REAL, AND TO WHAT EXTENT IT'S EXAGGERATED.SO THE RADICALS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE. A LOT OF THE RADICALS BEING CONDEMNED TODAY ARE THE SAME RADICALS THAT WERE BEING PRAISED IN THE 1980s, NOT ONLY PRAISED BUT LAVISHLY FINANCED BY OUR GOVERNMENT, BY THE C.I.A., BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

Moyers: BUT THEN THEY WERE BEHEADING... THE RUSSIANS.

Moyers: ...THE RUSSIANS IN AFGHANISTAN. YEAH.WELL, I THINK THAT AGAIN, THE POINT I'M MAKING, YOU HAVE THAT ELEMENT AND IT DOESN'T SPEAK FOR THE MAINSTREAM OF MUSLIMS. SO WHEN POLITICS CHANGES, THATELEMENT THEN IS TRANSFORMED FROM A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SERVING OUR INTERESTS, TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTITHETICAL TO OUR INTERESTS. AND THE MAINSTREAM IS ALWAYS THERE AND THEY'RE BEING BYPASSED.SO WE'RE JUST SAYING, INTERESTS WILL ALWAYS CHANGE.

Moyers: BUT, ZAID, THIS DOES SEEM TO--REPRESENT THE MAINSTREAM.

Moyers: BUT THIS DOES SEEM TO ME A QUALITATIVE DIFFERENCE IN EXTREMISM AND RADICALISM. JERRY FALWELL, PAT ROBERTSON,JAMES DOBSON, ALL THAT CROWD-- THEY REPRESENT A DIFFERENT STRAIN OF MY FAITH, BUT THEY'RE NOT CALLING FOR PEOPLE TO BEBEHEADED. THEY'RE NOT CALLING-- BUT THEY'RE CALLING FOR PEOPLE TO BE BOMBED INTO THESTONE AGE. SO WHAT'S... WHAT'S MORALLY MOREREPUGNANT? FIVE OR SIX PEOPLE BEINGBEHEADED IN SOME REMOTE CORNER OF THE WORLD OR MADELINE ALBRIGHT ADMITTING TO CHILDREN BEING STARVED AND DYING OFDISEASE BECAUSE WE BOMBED THEIR SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANT, AND THEY HAVE TO DRINK SEWAGE INFESTED WATER? WHAT'S MORE MORALLY REPUGNANT? I SAY WE HAVE TO REALLY LOOK AT THINGS FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND GETBEYOND THE SENSATIONALISM OF IT ALL. THIS IS WHAT I'M SAYING. WHEN IT'S IN OUR INTEREST TO HAVE THIS RADICAL FRINGE DESTABILIZE THE SOVIET UNION, IT'S FINE. WHEN IT'S IN OUR INTEREST TO HAVE THIS RADICAL FRINGEREPRESENT THE WHOLE OF ISLAM, AND THEN PRESENT THEM AS THE MOST MORALLY REPUGNANT FORCE ON THE EARTH, I THINK WE HAVE TO GET BEYOND THE HEADLINES, GETBEYOND THE SENSATIONALISM AND LOOK AT THESE AS HUMAN PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED COLLECTIVELY, BECAUSE A LOT OFPEOPLE ARE DYING. AND IF YOU DO A BODY COUNT, WE'RE KILLING A LOT MORE OF THEM THE THEY'RE KILLING OF US.

Moyers: BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY, "THERE, YOU SEE, IS WHAT WE MEAN. YOU CAN NEVER GET A MODERATE MUSLIM..." TO DO WHAT? TO CONDEMN--

Moyers: TO CONDEMN THE RADICAL. ALL RIGHT. I HOPE YOU... I HOPE YOU AIR THIS SEGMENT. I CONDEMN ALL OF THE LUNATICS THAT ARE KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE, BE THEY IN PIZZA HOUSES IN TEL AVIV, BE THEY INNOCENTMUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS OR OTHER BEING SLAUGHTERED SENSELESSLY IN IRAQ, AS STRONGLY AS I CONDEMN PEOPLE GETTING IN THE PLANES FLYING HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD TO BOMB INNOCENT PEOPLE INTOOBLIVION FOR NO CRIME THAT THOSE PEOPLE HAVE COMMITTED. I CONDEMN ALL OF IT.

Moyers: THOUGH HE MOSTLY STEERS HIMSELF AWAY FROM POLITICS IN HIS TALKS THESE DAYS, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO ESCAPE CONTROVERSY ALTOGETHER. LAST YEAR, THE "NEW YORK TIMES" WROTE A FAVORABLE PROFILE OF HIS LEADERSHIP IN THE SEARCH FORMODERATION. THE ARTICLE ENDED WITH SHAKIRINDICATING HE HOPED AMERICA WOULD BECOME A MUSLIM SOCIETY, "NOT BY VIOLENT MEANS, BUT BY PERSUASION." THE HEAD OF THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE SAID SHAKIR'S VIEWS WERE"UN-AMERICAN" AND HOPED HE WAS AN "ABBERATION." AN ARTICLE IN THE "WASHINGTON TIMES" IMPLIED SHAKIR WAS ARADICAL MASQUERADING IN MODERATE'S CLOTHES. YOU KICKED UP A TEMPEST WITH THAT REMARK. I MEAN, SOME PEOPLE SAY YOU WEREARGUING FOR AMERICA TO BECOME ATHEOCRACY RULED BY ISLAM. I WASN'T... I WASN'T ARGUING FOR ANYTHING. I WAS SIMPLY MAKING A STATEMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF A VERY LONG INTERVIEW THAT AS A MUSLIM I'D LIKE TO SEE EVERYONE BE A MUSLIM. AND I WOULD HOPE CHRISTIANS WOULD LIKE TO SEE EVERYONE BE ACHRISTIAN.

Moyers: WELL, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO-- BUT, I RESPECT... I RESPECT THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE TO BE WHATEVER THEY WANT TO BE AND TODISAGREE WITH THAT AND TO WANT PEOPLE TO BE WHATEVER THEY'D LIKE TO BE.

Moyers: SO YOU WEREN'T CALLING FOR A THEOCRACY? I WAS NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT. AND I WOULD SAY FURTHER I'VE NEVER CHALLENGED THE PLURALISTIC BASIS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY.

Moyers: SHAKIR TELLS HIS AUDIENCES THAT THEY WILL OFTEN BE CALLED ON TO DEFEND THEIRFAITH. IN TERMS OF MANIFESTING ISLAM AND LETTING PEOPLE SEE ITS BEAUTY IN THIS SOCIETY. AT A TIME WHEN WE HAVE ALL THESEPEOPLE MUDDYING IT UP. SO WE HAVE THIS BEAUTIFUL STREAM AND ITS CRYSTAL CLEAR WATER AND WE'RE LOOKING AT AND WE'REENTHRALLED. AND THEN SOMEONE RUNS OVER WITH A STICK AND STIRS UP ALL THE MUD ON THE BOTTOM AND IT'S LIKE UGH! GIVES YOU THE CREEPS. "I WOULDN'T DRINK THAT IF YOU PAID ME!" AND SO WHEN PEOPLE COME WITH STICKS AND MUDDY IT UP, YOU HAVE TO DO A LOT OF WORK TO CLEAR IT OUT.

Moyers: YOU SEEM TO BE CAUGHT RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. PEOPLE AFRAID OF ISLAM THINK YOUHAVE AN AGENDA OF... FOR TURNING AMERICA INTO A MUSLIM COUNTRY, AND THE RADICALS IN YOUR OWN FAITH, WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVESTHE PIOUS, THINK YOU ARE BETRAYING YOUR FAITH BY MODERATION. HAVE YOU MADE PEACE WITH THAT CONFLICT? WELL, I THINK THAT A PERSON HAS TO PURSUE THE TRUTH, AS HE OR SHE UNDERSTANDS IT. AND THEN LET THE PIECE FALL WHERE THEY MAY. IF A PERSON TRIES TO ADJUST THEIR VALUES OR PRINCIPLES OR THEIR POSITIONS BASED ON WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY POSITIONS THAT ARE YOUR OWN, BECAUSE YOU'RECONSTANTLY TRYING TO WALK THIS TIGHTROPE OR BALANCE BETWEEN WHAT PLEASES THIS PERSON OR THAT PERSON. AND WHERE... WHERE WILL YOU END UP? AND THEN, WHAT IS THEPOSSIBILITY OF CREATING AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE CAN BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT THINGS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY? IF I SAY YES, YOU KNOW, THE RADICALS ARE RIGHT.

( SPEAKING IN ARABIC ) THEN HOW ARE MUSLIMS GOING TO BE CHALLENGED TO LOOK DEEPER AT THE REALITIES OF THIS WORLD THAT RHETORIC AND SLOGANIZING AREN'T GOING TO DO TO ANYTHING CHANGE? CONVERSELY, IF IN THIS COUNTRY WE SAY "YES, MUSLIMS ARE BAD, WE'RE THE WORST THING SINCE THE BUBONIC PLAGUE AND IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL, YOU'RE GOING TO CATCH US AND YOU'RE ALL GOING TO BEFINISHED," THEN HOW DO WE CREATE THE CLIMATE THAT ALLOWS AMERICANS TO DEEPLY REFLECT ON THE REALITIES OF A DEFENSEBUDGET IN EXCESS OF $500 BILLION? AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF ALL THAT FOR OUR FOREIGN POLICY? HOW ARE WE GOING TO CREATE SOME... A SPACE WHERE WE BEGIN, CAN BEING TO LOOK AT THOSE ISSUES MORE OBJECTIVELY, IFEVERYONE EITHER CAPITULATES TO THIS SIDE OR THAT SIDE?

Moyers: EVERYTHING YOU SAY SUGGESTS THAT YOU DO NOT FEEL YOUR FAITH IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH AMERICAN DEMOCRACY. I WOULDN'T BE HERE.

Moyers: HOW SO? IF I FELT THAT MY FAITH, ANDI'M A MUSLIM, A PRACTICING MUSLIM, IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, WHY WOULD I STAY HERE? BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY, I'D BE SAYING, "I CAN NOT PRACTICE MY FAITH HERE." THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION. THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

Moyers: YOU CAN SEE MORE FROM THE MUSLIM WOMEN YOU'VE JUST MET. CHECK OUT OUR WEB-EXCLUSIVE VIDEO AND JOIN ME ON THE BLOG ATPBS.ORG. THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK. THAT'S IT FOR THIS WEEK.