african american history

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/behindtheveil  

Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor November 8, 1993 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South Tarboro (N.C.) I n t e r v i e w e r : Paul Ortiz I D : btvnc03037 I n t e r v i e w N u m b e r : 3 4 4

SUGGESTED CITATION

Interview with Jennie Douglass Taylor (btvnc03037), interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro (N.C.), November 8, 1993, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995)  

COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture

at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library

The materials in this collection are made available for use in research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated access policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use guidelines.

Jenny Taylor interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Tarboro, NC JT: It may be if you asked me questions. Oh, I can give you

the information that you want. Maybe better than if I just talk.

PO: OK JT: Cause I can talk like most women, Ya know, I may not be on

to subjects. PO: So, Mrs. Taylor, you were born in Charlotte? JT: In, Charlotte, I was born in Charlotte, NC uh. My father,

at the time, was professor of mathematics at what was then Biddle University - a Presbyterian college established by the Presbyterian Board out of Pittsburgh. It was called the Presbyterian Church North. Uh, and uh, I went to the public schools there until my father sent me down to Atlanta University in high school. I think the last two years of high school I went to Atlanta University and completed and then on through college. But Atlanta University was one of the schools established by the American Missionary Association, and the purpose of the establishment of these schools or the purpose of the Association was to provide education for the freed slaves and their families and children. So, uh, I finished Atlanta University College in 1929, but I finished high school then went on to college.

PO: Now, before you went to college, um what was Charlotte like? JT: Well, Charlotte, at that time, was really the largest city

we had in NC. It was rather progressive. I lived right on the border of SC, but it was segregated; and we went to the segregated schools. Uh, I went to several schools because they determined which school you would go to, and the schools that my brother went to were down in what we called Biddleville, and it was sort of a one or two-room school with just maybe two teachers. It was typical of that type of education at the time when the teacher had all of the grades that ran from one through to seven or eight. She had all the grades, and she'd teach this group a little while then the older children had to help take care of the younger children. But the teachers were dedicated and wanted to help the children get a good education and so

they worked very hard. They didn't think about how much time they were putting in. But I went to, the first school I went to was over in Greenville, we called it Greenfield. But, I had to go across the campus on Biddle University, up a road, down a railroad track along the ? side of that and then finally to the school, but it was a new school - they just built that school. It had about six rooms. I remember that, and then I had to pass what you would call - what would you call it now where the trash pile - where they dumped all the refuge from the town there and then it was burning all the time. I can just smell it now. But I took something called whooping cough. Came down with that and once you got whooping cough, you lost the year because it just lingered so long and it was dangerous, and it was highly contagious and so the child had to stay home. So I lost that year. So the next year, they both said we had to go to Myers Street School. Now, Myers Street School was about three miles from where I lived, and I had to walk that distance. But my mother always saw to it that there was some older girl to accompany me so I went on over to Myers Street, and this school had been a white school, but they were giving it over to the negroes. But, as I see the school now, it had started as a smaller thing and had been constantly added to. No real plan to the school. And uh, I did my first grade there. Now, I did first, second and third, I can remember that. I'm not sure about where I went to the fourth and fifth and things like that. But it was such a distance to walk and things were so tight, I naturally, even though finally they got street cars and it would cost me only a nickel to ride over there, it was hard to get a nickel. So, we had to walk and uh, I remember riding on the back of the buggy. Another girl in the first grades' father had a buggy. He did cement work. So she lived above me, and she would come by in this buggy, but the father and the man working with him would be sitting on the seat and we had to stand on the back of it and I don't remember any top on it. But we would just hold on to the seat in front, and there they would go, this horse pulling the thing. But I remember that because it was a big help to get that three miles over there. And uh, we had a........ cause I remember in the seventh grade, we did a lot of memorizing of poetry and speeches of former presidents and then they made a big thing out of it - some of them related to black uh, famous blacks like Frederick Douglas and people of that nature. And somehow or another all along, they were always training me to speak and uh. Then we

would have contests and uh then not only would we have that type of orations, but we would have to do long poems. And I was in a contest uh I remember that now, and uh, I came out second but my mother always felt I should have been first. But they gave it to a boy, they gave it to an old boy cause he was a boy and I was a girl. But I enjoyed that, I liked that and it had been very helpful to me because so much of my work has been in front of the public and having to do that type of thing. So there was a lot of extra work the teachers did.

PO: Now you mentioned Charlotte was a segregated town. What

was it like growing up in Charlotte? What was the black community like?

JT: Well, I guess I lived on a college campus born very near

the campus. My father owned a house. Then the university gave all of the professors homes to live in. They didn't give it to them, but this was rather than to give more money for salary, they gave them this home. So I was living in the university house on a university campus so you see, we were really segregated ourselves; but it was of a different class from what I call Biddleville. See, the college was Biddleville, and down below it, the college was the Biddle, but down below it was Biddleville. That's where I think the poorer people than we were and less educated ya know. They had not had the opportunities that we had.

PO: So, would it be fair to say you had a separate community? JT: Yes. And uh, but as I recall, you didn't have what you

have now. Kind of places where they are killing each other and carrying on. People were just poor, and most of them worked for whites and I'd see mothers passing my house going down below me just down the other side is what they called Seabersville, and uh. It was named for the Seabers. They were Germans. I remember there were three brothers and uh, they were all merchants. But, those were what we would call at that time the poor crackers. Like the poor blacks down. But you see, we're sitting in the middle of this thing. We're the university folk. We had more privileges I think, than they had. Uh, but now way across town, I went to this Myers Street School. That's where you had a different element of blacks, and they had one street there where they called Second Street. And that's where

blacks used to hang out. I was told don't ever walk on Second Street coming home from school. I must go First Street and then a certain way. My father didn't want me to come into contact with the folks on Second Street. You did find some black businesses there and the theater and on the corner uh, I can see the library, the first ? library. I guess that was one of the few we had in the South facing the other street though, it wasn't right on Second Street. But, uh, that's where you got a lot of ruckus ya know. Just that little area, and yet, all over this part of Charlotte was called Brooklyn I believe. And there were nice people, nice families living say over there just that little area, that little portion of Second Street was so bad. Then they sent me over to another part of town - it was in First Ward. That was the new school they had built. They built it down at a holler, and there was a branch running through there, and I remember the mosquitos when we first went in the fall of the year. The mosquitos were terrible. Um Um Um Because I guess there was a lot of stagnant water say around. But now, in elementary school - in going to Myers Street School, just about four blocks from me was the white school - elementary school - brick school. But I had to pass that to go beyond that those three miles to get to the black school.

PO: How do you feel about that? JT: I never could understand that. I would ask my mother why I

had to go so far when there's students. I would see the children out there playing and uh, she would try to explain it, but it was very painful, you see, for her and uh. The only time I've ever been called niger in my life was right in that area where the Seabersville. I had gone with my father and the other children to see a parade, the circus, I guess Barnum and Bailey circus was in town. And we went uptown, and I got lost in the crowd because more people would go to that. And when I looked around, I couldn't find my father or anybody. And when I didn't have any money to get on the streetcar, my sense of direction told me to go to the square and turn that way and keep going. So I did and see, I had a long ways to walk as a little girl. And when I got into Seabersville, I could see this children playing there. And all I was doing was - I was scared to death to start off with - and then they started calling me niger. That did upset me, and I think I shed a few tears. But I walked on and went on - I knew where I

was then and I got home and my mother was at home. She didn't go. She was sitting at the machine sewing and I told her what had happened - so she tried to comfort me and let me know that they didn't know what they were talking about - that there was not a niger - that no such thing as that ya know and so forth. And uh, I was a nice little girl. But that's the only time I've ever been called niger in my life.

PO: And when you walked by the school ... usually... was there

... (unclear)? JT: There was a big fence around the school - big fence around

the school. And the children, the little white children were on the inside of the fence, and I don't remember them saying anything to them, at least they didn't say anything to me - whether they said anything to the other children or not, I don't know.

PO: What was your family like? Were you living .... JT: Well, with five children I had a brother and two sisters,

had two brothers but the two younger children were sort of spread far apart. Three of us came a year, nine months apart then about five years elapsed then another one, then about five more years elapsed then another one. But uh, we were a good family. We loved each other and wanted to take care of each other and my mother - my father had bought up some property. At that time, there wasn't any much place for a black man to invest even though ... stock market - with the little bit of money he had - he wouldn't have trusted it there. But, they would, they could buy property. It seemed at though, I know my father's real estate agent encouraged him to buy property and in some cases, the real estate agent, if it was auctioned, he would go and buy it for my father because he was afraid that maybe they would not buy it - or sell it to my daddy. So he was fighting, and he would go ahead and he would buy it. but of course, when he settled, he put my father's name and everything on it. So that way, he bought up say uh right much property. But what was it now. And that was to be for our education for his children's education and that was its purpose. And all of those men, those professors at Johnson C. Smith Univ. - all those older men - that is the way they invested their money. See, the board gave them a house to live in and my father was making $75 dollars a

month. We were fairing so much better than other people - $75 a month for year round - 12 months - and most school teachers when they taught a little - they taught maybe about - at that time they were teaching not more than five or six months. So were fairing much better.

PO: Do you remember your grandparents? JT: I never saw my father's people. But I saw my mother's

father. My mother's mother died in child birth and so she was dead before I was born. But my mother's father was living. I've got this picture.

PO: So, your father was a barber. JT: My grandfather was a barber. His name was George Wayne

McLain. And the story goes where he is concerned uh in Camden his he had a friend I've heard it two ways. But, he had a friend that was a physician in New Jersey. And he was a doctor - George Wayne McLain. But he came down to visit this Colonel somebody - he was a Colonel from the Civil War. Uh, and when he came to visit them, the uh the colonel was trying to entertain him, and they had as you know, they had slaves that some would what they called house terminology they termed house niggers. And then some would work in fields. Well, I don't have the any of those pictures. they got taken away. But his mother as I understand it was the daughter of the owner. You see, the mother was the house slaves. And so she had this child uh well she had a child - a girl and so when the doctor came down, and to entertain the doctor, uh, they gave him this girl to sleep with. as I said, it was a reunion where I had to do this. they didn't have the movie houses and the TV and the this and the that for entertainment - so to entertain him, the owner gave to the doctor this girl - but this girl was really his daughter as I understand. And so grandpa came out of that union. And there must be something to it too because now he lived over this way - his house is facing that way - and they went over to this other street, which was Littleton Street, and he later after grandpa married, he gave this property with a ditch running through there - and from that ditch he gave all that property to grandpa. And he still say lived over - he faced that way - and then grandpa had a man working him they called Uncle Billy. and it seemed as though this owner just sort of included grandpa's family in - they was

always doing things for him. And this is the this was the first family reunion we had. And you can look there - you can see - so grandpas dead a long time ago before that.

PO: did you remember - did he tell any stories? JT: Well, uh I don't remember his telling any stories. Well to

tell you the truth about grandpa - grandpa was more white than he was colored. and he associated with the white men in Camden. And when they went off fishing, they would go off on fishing trips and so forth. And uh, so it wasn't that kind of relationship. Really grandpa - was more white than he was colored.

PO: Did that ever - I mean - how did that work with your

parents - what was the relationship? JT: Well, he was in - grandpa was in Camden, SC. My father was

in Charlotte. But I remember Grandpa was always concerned about his children and uh he sent he sent us a goat. How on earth that goat got there - it seems to me I can see it coming in on a buggy. But he was concerned about the health of the children. And he would milk the goat - then I had a little brother - he was constantly sending us something from Camden of that nature. Anybody that came from Camden was coming to Charlotte - would send some vegetables or something. But I don't know him as far as race is concerned. And we had uncle George and Uncle Jimmy Uncle Johnny - and those were the three brothers. I've got their picture somewhere.

PO so, did your parents - when your grandfather was sending

vegetables - how was that perceived by your parents? JT: When he would send that? PO: Yea JT: Well, we were happy to get it - we appreciated it. And I

know my mother would go down at intervals to visit - to go back to Camden to visit - to spend some time with him. And then they would send us down there. I remember my brother and I going down there. Uh - especially if there was any fellows in Biddle at the end of the year - they would take this little train - Southern Railroad - and they would send us by them - and they would - the other sisters and all

would take care of us. That is to help relieve my mother so she wouldn't have as much to do. They were very caring of each other.

PO: Now, how about your grandfather's wife? JT: Well, the first wife died. Now the first wife, this is the

story I heard. Uh, grandpa used to pass the place where he saw these two pretty little girls uh in the back yard of this particular place. They were slaves. But say , Grandpa said if he ever made enough money, he was gonna buy this girl And he did. So that was his first wife. he bought one of them. And uh, I can't think of the names now. i don't have that, I should have that. Uh, and so that's the one that died in child birth.

PO: He bought her out of slavery? JT: Yes, He bought her out of slavery. PO: So his second wife was from Orangeburg? JT: Was from Orangeburg. But it was sort of an interesting

family. And now, momma doesn't have anything on there, does she? But this is when she is a young girl young woman, and uh, my father and mother met at SC State College. Momma uh was teaching uh, let's see - early childhood education we would call it what, Kindergarten now. Now see, this is way back there. And uh, she went to New York. Ever heard of New York Shatakwa? The way I see it, they sort of uh - more like a workshop we would have. But they would have this every summer. She had finished Browning Home. That was the private school financed run by ? Methodist Church - white - they established it there. And so she would go up there - New York, and learn took courses and studied this - and so when the SC legislature gave the blacks a school - a college, my father and my mother were on the faculty. Uh, trying to think uh old man Tom Miller - if you go to SC, you will want to get some info on Thomas Miller. My father always spoke of him as old man Tom Miller. That's why I say that. But, he was the first president of SC STATe. Now he was during the period of Reconstruction, old man Tom miller was in the legislature. You know about that period. You read about that period. And uh, so then when the whites were trying to take things back, they were sort of paying the blacks

off you know, and so they asked Old Man Tom Miller what did he want? And he said he wanted a college for the negroes. so they gave it to him. And this is Orangeburg State, I guess - University now. They all - that's in Orangeburg, SC. and uh, my father and mother were on their first faculty. And then

PO: What do you know about ..... JT: Well, momma and pappa married in 1903 - January 1904. So

that must have been in the very early part of the century or the last part of the other century.

PO: I was curious about some other parts of your childhood.

What were your playmates like? JT: Most of my playmates were other professors' children. And

uh, but we did play some of the village children. As I look back at it now, our parents were very steady - very careful about our associations you see. but uh, we had a good group of children because the - there wasn't such thing as birth control and all of the professors had a whole lot of children - so we had plenty of kids on the campus to play with and some of the children from the village uh - but we made those friends in school. There was plenty to play with. Good wholesome relationships. and we went to the football games on the campus, the baseball games, basketball hadn't come in then. But uh, then my father used to play with us - ... on the campus would play with us - they'd play ball and so forth. Father's don't have time now, I guess - but they would play with us.

PO: Who made the decisions in the family? JT: Well, my father - he was definitely the head of the house.

But now, I heard him say this, if he bought a piece of property - I heard him say, I would never buy a piece of property without taking my wife with me. It's not that she knows anything about business, but she has a woman's intuition -and if she said Dad, I wouldn't buy that, he said, I never touched it. Can you beat that? She has a woman's intuition. And that directed him to leave that alone.

PO: So, who made the budgeting decisions?

JT: Well they worked together on that. I think they worked

together on that because my mother did not work to start off with. She did not work until I think I got to about the eighth grade and then we had these two little - one little boy and one little girl. And she went out into the rural area to teach. And it wasn't so that you could get in a car this morning and go out there like they do now. But she had to go out and live - and housing conditions were very poor, especially in the county - and I've often thought about what a sacrifice she made. Papa had sort of overloaded himself with property and needed to pay for it - so she went to help him pay for this property. And uh, I can remember that, and then she gave me the little, no she gave me the girl to be my child and the little boy was to be my sister's child. We were to take care of them. they had a woman who came during the day who did the cleaning and the cooking, but now when I got home from school, I was supposed to take care of my little sister. See to it that she was fed, bathed. So, uh, we did very well. But that was - in that day, everybody had to work together.

PO: What kind of values did your parents bring you up with and

did you - what were you raised with? JT: Well, you did not tell a lie. That was - oh, that was just

one of the worst things in the world that you could do. I can't think of just what this was now about some insurance I took out. And my father thought I had told a lie to the insurance agent. It turned out that I hadn't, but oh, you just didn't do that. You tell the truth. And if - of course they used to whip us every time - and you had to be in house - if you went out to play - you had to be in before the lights came on. They were very strict. I don't know if you know anything about the Presbyterian Church or not. Oh, it's very strict. They just lay the law down, do this, ya know, do that. And you don't steal. you don't lie. Oh, where values were concerned, they really taught us that, so much so now until I can't stand for anybody to lie to me. Just to tell me that your going to do a certain thing and don't do it, that really vexes me. And I think very little of that person. You know, they don't live up to what they said they were going to do because that's the way I came up. If you commit yourself, you do that or you die trying. Not only did I get that from my parents, but I went to Atlanta Univ. - that was the same thing. In

Atlanta University the faculty were composed of New England whites who had come down from the American Missionary Assoc. to help the salves and the children of the slaves. So, very strict. Oh, the moral were very strict. Um Um Um

PO: Were there any modifications or changes that you made? JT: No, I think I stuck to that. And my daughter told me just

recently something that she had encountered - She's making her children stick to the same thing.

PO: Now, you were going to Atlanta University - what was

Atlanta University like? JT: Atlanta University was one of the most prominent black

colleges. Atlanta University - no that would - I'm thinking about American Missionary Association Schools. but, we were considered to be the elite of the black colleges. Now, Dubois, you've heard of W.E. Dubois, taught at Atlanta University. He was not there when I was there, but that's the caliber of person. And so many of the professors we had while I was there came from the New England schools. What is that school that Dr. Adams came from? But, I know, one year, we had somebody there from - one fellow from Yale, one from Syracuse Univ., one from Harvard. We called him the four horsemen. Wow, they was tough fellows. but they had just finished college. They didn't have master's degrees yet. But uh, they did pile the work on us. But it was high class. They gave us the best.

PO: What was it like to make the transition from Charlotte to

Atlanta University? Were you apprehensive about the change?

JT: I don't think so. I don't remember that. Oh, I remember

going down there - I think they put me on a train in Charlotte and I had to travel at night, and I'd get to Atlanta the next morning about 5:00 or 6:00. Now, the conductor took me out of the black coach and put me in the coach back of that and in that coach, as I recall, there were some foreigners. I don't remember what nationality they were. But why - for what reason he took me out of the black coach and put me back there, I don't know. Now that 's way back yonder. But because I was fair in color or something of that nature, he wouldn't even let me stand.

He took me back there with these foreigners. And then, uh, what got me about it was I didn't know what they were saying. You see, they were speaking a different language. But fortunately, since it was at night, I soon fell asleep. When I awakened, it was time to get off in Atlanta. But I adjusted very well. It didn't bother me a bit. Because I make friends easily and so I soon had folks that I was having a good time with.

PO: Now did you spend, I don't know much about life at Atlanta

University, was most of your time on campus., etc? JT: But, uh, most of our time was spent on campus. And I do

remember uh, they wanted us to see the condition of our people - this is the way I figured it out. Sunday mornings, we would go walking - but you had to be chaperoned. And when we went to town, we had to be chaperoned - you know, in groups of ten. but, in walking around Atlanta, - you've been to Atlanta, you know where Fair Street is,

PO: I've been down by.... JT: You've been on the other side. Well, near our campus, see

I'm talking about the old Atlanta University? What's there now is the new Atlanta University. Do you know where Morris Brown College is?

PO: Yea. JT: All right, that was - the buildings that are there now -

all of those buildings were not there when I was there - but that was the old Atlanta University campus.

PO: Now, at Morris Brown back in those days, was the men's

college. JT: No, I think Morris Brown's always been co-ed. PO: Co-ed, OK. JT: Morehouse was male. Spelman was female. We were co-ed.

Clark was co-ed. And we had a whole lot of colleges there. they brought them all - put them all together. But uh, I enjoyed - we had a beautiful campus, and we had good teachers - good library and they kept us busy and uh we had

different types of organizations on campus. The YWCA at that time, was a good strong, moral building organization and I served my students there. I served two years as president. And uh, they used to send me off to represent them in different places, ya know and uh then we would go - the YWCA would have its national convention in Talaedca . Did you ever hear of Howard Thurmond and Sue Bailey Thurmond?

PO: NO JT: He married Sue Bailey. Sue Bailey was the representative

of the national YWCA for the colleges - the black colleges and uh these secretaries I believe they called them secretaries - Benny Mayes was one at one time. But they would come to the colleges and they would work with the YWCA, the YMCA. Offered a lot of inspiration. I'm sorry they're not as strong as they once were. We're losing a whole lot there because I don't have - very few do we have - do you see what's happening with YM and YWCA's?

PO: Well, I know actually in Washington they are pretty active. JT: Pretty active. We've got some over in Rocky Mount. But

uh, we need some good character building organizations for this side.

PO: That's really what the YWCA was - builds character. I'm

curious, now you started talking about your professors who would take you out on these walks on Sundays.

JT: Oh, the walk, yea uh huh. Yea PO: And what was that? What was the purpose? JT: Well, we were getting off the campus and getting a little

exercise, but as I look back at it now, I think they wanted us to see the condition of people and just to say to us - you have a job to do. Cause they didn't take us into the nice parts of town because the negroes have been progressing in Atlanta and they've made money and they've built beautiful homes. But they didn't do that. They took us down in the dives - back over there in Fair Street down as so forth and so on. You have no idea what it is now because they have put housing projects and so forth in there now, but I have figured it out they're saying to us -

they're charging us to do something . about this. PO: Now, when you were going to Atlanta University, ... ever

come back? JT: No, I never saw him. -never saw him. PO: But you were mentioning that you and a lot of the

university - they taught you, basically from what I understand is the ..... black people went to college to become leaders.

JT: Yea. To lift ... It was an obligation you had. and uh, It

was so instilled in you until you want to do it. Ya know. I got this little prayer group around here now and I've tried to give them something uplifting even though most of them are retired and many of them have not had the education and so forth. But I tell them they can still learn - there's still much to learn. You keep on learning as long as we are here on this earth. And uh, I try to inspire them to inspire your children and your grandchildren - to see to it that they go to school and stay in school. But all that came from Atlanta University and of course born into .. my father was a professor. That's all I know. I don't know anything about loitering. That's a sin. That's a terrible sin to waste your time, ya know. I guess children don't know anything about that now. They've got to look at television. My daughters have a time with their children because they want to look at television. And she wants to select the things that they see. She's got a lot of me in her. She's done well for it, but now I had a little period with her that uh, I guess that's normal with children. They want to go their way. But she was talented, and when the North Carolina School of the Arts opened, she was one of the first students there. And you don't see too many black children in this type of dance - classical. You see them in the other types. But she went there, to classical.

PO: What time frame was that? JT: I was teaching at North Carolina Central, and I went there

in the late 50's, so that's the early 60's, must have been. PO: Now, when she made that decision, was that something you

agreed with?

JT: Well, from a little thing, she was always dancing. She had

learned on television, and she had seen it so she was just like a little butterfly dancing around. Well, I had taught dance. I studied dance at Harvard University, but I didn't keep it up. But, when I saw her wanting to do this type of dance, I wanted to encourage her. But I could not find anybody around here that did that. A girl in Rocky Mount did organize some kind of little class, but it was not that type of dance. So, when I was in Durham, and they were opening the School of the Dance in Winston Salem, I got busy trying to get her ready to go. There weren't but about five black children accepted, and she was one of them.

PO: So when you left Atlanta University, where was your first

job? Where did you go? JT: I think I went to um Alabama. No I didn't. I didn't go to

Alabama. I went to a little place called Hastings, Florida. I went because I couldn't get a job in NC. Uh, they didn't have many high schools for blacks in NC. I was put there to teach in the high schools. And my sister, where's that little place in NC, but she took sick with appendicitis, so my father sent me on her job to save her job. then when she got well enough to go on her job, her I am sitting up there with no job. But I did get this message from Hastings, Florida. They didn't open as early as the others - its' called a potato city. They raise white potatoes, mostly and sweet potatoes. A potato city. So I went on down there and stayed the remainder of that year. And I taught in the high school.

PO: Now..... JT: It must have been in the fall of 29'. I came out in 29' -

fall of 29; and I stayed until school closed in June. PO: What were your experiences teaching? JT: Well, uh, they had a pretty nice building. The children

wanted to learn, they were all poor people - everybody down there as I can see were poor. I didn't call myself poor in that respect. Ya know, cause I had come from a different class of people. But uh, they were ambitious, they wanted to learn, and I found a lot of talent - a lot of talent.

They could sing, whether they had had any music lessons or not, they could play - just natural talent. And uh, they were beginning to play basketball then - I guess even before then because there was a girl teaching with me and her - she had a brother - was that her brother - yes - well she was our basketball coach and the olympics when they were having them in Germany, her brother was one of the fellows in track, I guess - went to Germany. so they were conscious about things of that nature. I enjoyed my year down there. And I could go out and pick the grapefruit off the tree, the oranges, ya know. And if you went to visit one of the families, they'd take a whole big branch of just all these oranges on it -and I'd take over ham or pork.

PO: So they were mainly agricultural workers. JT: Yea. But you see, that's just um seasonal work, just

seasonal work and I did not like the relationship of whites and blacks there. The blacks are definitely across this branch. I don't remember much about the whites, but one bad experience I remember how or why I went downtown, I don't know. It was during the day, and the principal had sent this boy downtown to get the mail or to get something and somebody said to me that so and so was in jail. That was one of our students. I said well, where is it. So this person pointed out, I don't know whether it was a black person or a white person telling me this , I don't remember that, but I went there and I could not see the boy and there was a glass up at the top of this thing, but it was too high and that must have been an awful type of thing that they had. And what they had gotten him about was he was driving the principals's car - the principal had sent him to do an errand, and they were, they made up something - just mean. But I have never forgotten that poor boy and how he was in that awful whole there. Terrible. But yet they time came to pick potatoes, everybody was picking up potatoes - little money, didn't make much. um um

PO: So from Hastings, Florida, you went back to NC - back to

Charlotte? JT: No, Well I'd go home in the summer. Where did I go after

Hastings, Florida? Hastings, I was with Florida Educational System. I believe I went to Charleston, SC to Avery Institute. That was under the American Missionary Association. Now, Charleston is high class. You've got

your different sections, ya know. But Charleston is different from any other place in the world. You ever been to Charleston?

PO: Yea. JT: And I enjoyed my experiences in Charleston. I think I must

have been there about two or three years. PO: Now you were teaching at the Avery Institute? What types

of subjects were you teaching? JT: I was teaching the 7th grade, and my friend who came from

AU was teaching the 6th grade. So, we set up a sort of what would you call it a system where she would teach certain subjects and I would teach certain subjects. So for her 6th grade, I taught Geography, my 7th grade I taught German - I can't think of the terminology - and she liked math better than I did , so she took my math class.

PO: So you were team teaching? JT: No, that's not team teaching. It's another term. It won't

come to me. You're not teaching the same grade. You're working in the little section here - but you are teaching certain subjects to both of the grades or the three grades or what not. So, uh, yea that was in Charleston that I did that. And I had - I'd had a boy's basketball team there. Little boys would play some basketball, and I used to take them traveling.

PO: So you were coaching? JT: um um - One fellow on that team has been one of the

officers with North Carolina Mutual. Clement I think was on my team.

PO: So the children at Avery Institute, were they , is it fair

to say they were from a different social class than children - ....

JT: They had to pay tuition. We had public schools then, but

to come to Avery, you had to pay tuition. Not everybody could pay tuition. But yet, there were some there who were poor as they could - but the parents, they wanted the best for their children. So they, somehow or another, they

would get that tuition. Very proud people - Charleston. Very proud - high class. I enjoyed my stay there. And we lived right on the campus - 54 Montague Street. I can remember that beautiful old colonial home. Uh, and the very basement was where there had been slave quarters - then up on the first floor was a gorgeous dining room, living room - a lot of what would you call that - but it was hand carved - around the walls. And then, the third floor were our bedrooms and bath then they even had a fourth floor bedroom up there.

PO: Where did you get your information from in those days? JT: What do you mean by that? PO: News JT: Oh, we had newspapers - yea, the Charleston, what was it? -

the Charleston Paper - most of us would take a newspaper - we would always have one at the school in the library - but then we had something else that we don't have now. We had some black newspapers. One was the Norfolk Journal and Guide. Uh, I think the Carolina Times - is that still going out of Raleigh? And the Carolinian out of Durham - uh, in Charlotte, we had the Afro-American newspaper - it was published at Johnson C. Smith. Then over town, Mr. somebody published a paper, but then we called them black newspapers or negro newspapers. And you got a lot of news there. Plus, they cared a lot about blacks and individuals that would inspire other blacks. But we had radios - we didn't have TV then, but we had radio. The radio, I remember we got that before we left and went down to University.

PO: Do you read also, the Crisis? JT: Yes, magazines like the Crisis and ? hadn't come into begin

then. Let's see, the Crisis and what else was that that we used to have? You think of any other black magazines?

PO: There were many - Journal and Guide JT: Of course the Journal and Guide was one we - We had to see

that. PO: The Defender - out of Chicago

JT: Oh yes. The Chicago Defender. Now the Chicago Defender -

what's the man's name? Mr. What - um um um ho ho ho - I don't - Abbott? I believe it was Abbott. I don't know who was working with him. Uh

PO: I just read about him - but it was... JT: Abbott, I believe it was. Anyway, Mr. Abbott married by

girlfriends' aunt. uh Was that Aunt Ethel - who was that? um um um - It was the family from Athens, Georgia and he married one of those - they were all nice and they all looked like whites. And uh, when I was at A.U., one time in this room I had there on the second floor, there was a room to my left and in that room were two girls and they were nieces of Mr. Abbott's. One was Gwendolyn Sain Stack - that came to me. I don't know what the other girl's name was but she was big and fat. The other one was slender. Very poor looking - but I think he was sending them to Atlanta University. And uh, they were very quiet. They didn't mingle with us much. They got their lessons and graduated. Oh, Gwendolyn Sain Stack. I can't think of the other one. But that was a very popular newspaper. I guess its gone out of business now.

PO: What - how about entertainers at that period of time? Were

there people that ...? JT: Now I heard Marion Anderson and Paul - I've seen Paul

Robeson - what's the other one's name. The other black uh singer. But in Atlanta, Dr. Adams our faculty member, Dr. Adams was our president. They wanted us to have the benefits of all of the good things, even though things were segregated. And Dr. Adams would take us himself. He would be the chaperon. So I heard Marion Anderson when I was a college student in Atlanta the first time. Uh, I don't remember what Paul Roberson - how he came there. It was in Atlanta when I saw him, but there's still another one. Who's the other one? Golden Hayes, Golden Hayes. And the things we talked about was - we're in this building and we're up in the gallery and all the white folks are sitting down here. Yet, these are black entertainers ya know.

PO: Golden Hayes was singing? JT: Yes, I heard Golden Hayes. I heard Marion Anderson. And

Paul Robeson, I don't remember just on what occasion that was. What about the poet?

PO: um, Langston Hughes JT: Langston Hughes. I had the privilege of his being my

escort one summer. I was on the faculty at Atlanta University. He was the visiting professor, and when I got to Atlanta, they were having this big thing down on Auburn Avenue - a roof party. Some club was giving. And they had already - my friends had arranged - for him to be my escort. So that was something.

PO: It was JT: But now I look back at it now - but they're not gonna know

that I thought it was so fine. It's more significant now than it was then.

PO: Did you talk much with him? JT: He had very little to say. He had very little to say. PO: Most of it was written down on paper, I guess. Yea, I'm a

great admirer of Langston Hughes' works. JT: Good poet. PO: Now you - when we talked on the phone, you mentioned that

you were on one of the first integrated committees in the State of North Carolina. Could you tell me a little bit about that?

JT: Uh, Oh I told you, I guess I told you I was with the North

Carolina School Help Coordinating Service. It was not a committee - it was a staff of blacks and whites. Uh, and we had there - at first I was the only health educator. Or did we have two health educators? We had nurses, both black and white. Directors - Dr. Hughes was the black and who was the other fellow? He had a PhD in nutrition - and people didn't know much about nutrition then. Nurses - oh physical educators. They did not have a black physical educator. Charlie Spencer was the white and then I can see this girl now. She was the woman uh but I was the health educator - Dr. Hughes, Ms. Corbett was the nurse, and Lydia Lydia Johnson? was the nutritionist and at that time, we

were confined to the black school. But the whites could come over and work with us. But uh, now all that information is at the State Board of Health. I'm sure. I hope they haven't thrown it away. Because it was a pilot project. Improving the community through the schools. And we had the privilege of um let's say inventing any kind of program that we so desired to experiment with. I remember one of the things I did in Goldsboro- I found so many children there with tonsillitis, adenoids and tonsils. They taught to screen the children - so in screening the children - we can find certain things and then we send the child on to the doctor or nurse and so forth. But once we found the children with these tonsils and adenoids and ... the parents couldn't do anything about making corrections. So, I made up a - I set out and wrote a proposal for an insurance - a school insurance. I guess I'm the first one that did it. And uh, we arranged it so that children - the parents paid so much money, we raised money and we got this pool of money - then we worked with the doctors and got some corrections made. I took the plan to the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company. Asa Spaulding - what was that term now? What was he - what kind of business person was he? What was his title? Asa Spaulding had been to the one of the big schools in this field. Um um um - But he was their specialists. So Mr. CC Spaulding told me it would have to go through Mr. Asa Spaulding. They would have to see about it. Anyway, when they wrote me was - they could not do it - well Asa, said they could not do it because it would not give any benefits to the company. It would help the children, but there would be no monies coming in to the company. So, I wasn't able to get that through, but yet, it wasn't too long after that when an insurance company over in High Point started insuring all of the athletes. The schools could buy insurance from them. I don't know just how far that went. How much - how many more people they took in. But I did that, I remember. and I'm so sorry that the Mutual didn't go along with me and then even though as I look back at it now, I shouldn't have stopped at the mutual. I should have gone to one of the white insurance companies. They would have found a way to make some money out of it. I believe.

PO: This is quite a new innovation on your part - this school

insurance because it didn't exist. JT: It didn't exist.

PO: What other types of activities did you try to encourage on

the schools? JT: Well, we had our programs pretty well outlined. Uh, it was

given to us ya know. I'm trying to think now. Now when I did that, I was with this North Carolina School and Coordinating Service. I did some other things there I just can't think about them now.

PO: [unclear] JT: Rockefeller Foundation. See, we went all over - we had

certain counties - I can't say we went all over the state - there were certain counties selected where it was heavily populated by blacks and uh we taught the teachers - the teachers had come every day - they didn't like that. But uh we would go into counties there - each one of us on the staff had certain lectures to make. And then we taught the teachers how to screen the children. And nutrition was something. We had two nutritionists. The head man was a nutritionist and then we had this woman and she came from Hickory, I believe. But she was just in home economics but she was interested in nutrition so she kept studying and so forth. One time in Durham when we had our summer workshop there, we sat up and both at Chapel Hill, UNC and at North Carolina Central, an experiment. We took so many children - we examined them. And then we saw what conditions they were in. so then we put them into two different groups and we fed one group certain things and didn't feed the other as nutritional a diet as the other. And it proved that nutrition was a key to much of the illness in the development of the children.

PO: And the development in schools. They couldn't really learn

if they ... JT: Weren't well nourished PO: So that was one of the things you were trying? JT: Trying to prove. PO: What came out of that? What was the outcome? JT: Well, we , I think we got better lunch rooms or got lunch

rooms and then we we tried to get foods within the child's community that were very nutritional made up of a lot of different recipes so they could use them. We even made what kind of ice cream was that we made - um um um - but it was good. Very nourishing. uh uh uh Can't think now what it was. But it's something that the children had within their own environment - and they were not - the parents did not know really how to use it because they had a lot of things there but the child would tell ya I don't like that. I don't like that - and it was the very thing that he needs. ya see - children were very poorly nourished - very poorly nourished. Some of them had the food but did not eat it - so that was one of my big things, working with improvement of the nutrition of the child. And getting the child's corrections - Then we had the State dentists in North Carolina. They had a whole slew of dentists - white and black - that went around and corrected the children's teeth.

PO: That was going on before you started this work? JT: It - I think it was going on before we started. I don't

know who financed that. But we would pull them in to help us.

PO: Who financed the better lunch rooms? JT: Now I really don't know. I remember uh - you remember when

you had free commodities? uh - seems to me I was in this program and I had walked in to some of these schools - 1 and 2-room schools - and the teacher had free commodities and she got a pot on the stove - she was making them some soup or something - I ... given to her - and but I guess it really got started more in the towns uh and just how they were financed, I don't know. I don't remember now.

PO: Cause when I stayed at N.C. State ... JT: Well, I don't know. I just really - I'm lost where that is

concerned. But that was very important because the children began to get at least one meal a day - a decent meal a day.

PO: How about other issues involving schools. How about teachers' salaries?

JT: Very poor. Very poor. When I went to Charleston, I got

$55 a month and room and board and the American Missionary Association paid my railroad fair there and back but they paid me for 10 months - and the teachers here in North Carolina were getting less than that. They thought I had gotten a fabulous salary. But then when I came to North Carolina, where did I go first? I believe I went to Lincoln Academy but I'm still with the AMA. but my sister was working and my mother was working in the State system and they were getting something like $50 a month and no room and board. There was one period here in North Carolina where the people were paid - what did they call it - anyway they gave them a piece of paper - what was that term? Similar to that - and uh, sometimes your grocery stores or your other stores would let you buy things with it, ya know. They didn't call it ? - It was something else.

PO: [unclear] JT: It was equal to that. PO: Did you, now all this time, were you involved with ... JT: Most of us joined the NAACP - I can't say involved with it.

I never ever worked too much with the NAACP. Haven't worked with it - I have always been a member. I don't know whether I haven't been where there was a good chapter or what - but I've usually been involved in some kind of community work.

PO: Do you remember the Scottsboro case? JT: Yes. Um where was I when that happened? um um um - These

boys were in this uh box car. Wasn't that it? And there was a white girl in the car. And I remember that - I don't remember the details now but then the boys were arrested um um um - and I - they were sentenced I believe. Do you - have you read about it lately?

PO: I just read about it ...... JT: Yes. PO: They uh,- the woman actually came out and said that she had

.....

JT: Yes. Yes. and that's in Alabama - some place in Alabama. But I remember going to Alabama to teach and that was always on my mind - but I don't ever remember going to this little town of Scottsboro. But these boys were just trying to get out of town and get somewhere to make some money and get a job. And I don't know what she was doing on there. But she did accuse them wrongly.

PO: Now there's a lot of involvement..... JT: Now you've got to give the NAACP a lot of credit. Give

them a lot of credit. Uh, - Walter White - isn't he one of the founders of the NAACP?

PO: He was president of ..... JT: It seems to me Walter White and Dubois knew each other at

Atlanta University. Now Walter White - this is what I remember reading - (tape ended here)

------------------------------------ Beginning of Tape 2 - JT: And Walter White's sister was secretary to the School of

Social Work at Atlanta University. I think when I first started going down there teaching I met her then. I guess he was dead by that time though.

PO: Did you have chance to meet any other .... JT: Any what? PO: Any other prominent people in the NAACP? JT: Uh, let's see if you can remember who was there. I have

been privileged there because so much of my life has been associated with the University. See - as a child growing up - now Paul Lawrence Dunbar - ever heard of him? Now I heard him as a child because at Johnson C. Smith University which was built when I was a child - he came every year and recited poetry. See - cause he gave it to the -.... every year. Um, all those people would come to the various colleges where I was and even at Avery Institute, they would bring the celebrities. I can't think of anybody else. It looks as though we have let this thing go so much now until we almost don't remember. but now they don't say

as much about Paul Lawrence Dunbar as they should. When my father and mother - when they cleaned out the house, my father had a book of Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poem, and that book was about as thick as this. And I took the things - I was teaching at North Carolina Central when I cleaned that house out - and I took some of the things I couldn't get rid of or did not want to get rid of - I took them with me then and put them in the basement but I didn't lock them up. So I haven't seen the book since. It was . a fact of the house (can't make it out ) - I lost that.

PO: So, in the 50's, when did you actually start teaching ...? JT: Uh, I did - say I did two stits there. Um um um - I guess

I went to North Carolina Central about 19 - was that about 1945? yea. I married from North Carolina Central - The State sent me there to help establish the graduate school and the - a department of health education in the undergraduate school. And Dr. Lucy Malgen and I from Chapel Hill worked together. So, I set up the the department for undergraduates - that was my big thing. Oh, and then Dr. Shepherd sent me out to get the first graduate class. And I I selected those people from people who had been with us at our workshops. We had a workshop every summer uh - Chapel Hill had one and North Carolina Central had one. North Carolina College of Negroes at that time. So uh, the girls that had shown - the students that had shown a real interest in helping uh education - I had kept in touch with them, and I had their records, so then I had to contact these people and see if they were interested in a scholarship - we got scholarships for them. And I don't know if there was still the Rockefeller Foundation or not. Plus, we brought people from Mississippi - I say some of the Southern states, and they came for our workshops so that they could learn what we were doing and go back to their state and help the people - folk.

PO: And this is all out of North Carolina Central? JT: It was really - it was uh it was not North Carolina Central

doing it. This is the State Board of Health and the State Board of Education in this joint venture North Carolina School Health Coordinating Service. They were the ones working together and they were getting the money say from the Foundation. Now what I heard - was it this or the other theory - the Rosenwald Foundation - was that it? Dr.

Hughes started working with the State Board of Health when VD became such a problem - and the State - no other Board of Health in the South had ever had a black doctor on it. but the company the Foundation was giving the money definitely said they had to attach a black position to their staff.