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Interview with Leola Davis Williams June 28, 1994 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South Albany (Ga.) Interviewer: Charles Houston ID: btvct01008 Interview N umber: 58

SUGGESTED CITATION

Interview with Leola Davis Williams (btvct01008), interviewed by Charles Houston, Albany (Ga.), June 28, 1994, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995)

COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture

at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library

The materials in this collection are made available for use in research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated access policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use guidelines.

Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South

Interview

with LEOLA DAVIS WILLIAMS

(DOB 12/10/19)

Albany, Georgia June 28, 1994

Charles H. Houston, Jr. Interviewer

Houston: Could we start by having you state your name and your

date of birth, and where you were born, please?

Williams: My name is Leola Davis Williams and I was born in

Baker County.

Houston: And when were you born?

Williams: When?

Houston: The twelfth, tenth, 1919.

Williams: Okay. So December 10, 1919.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: I forgot to mention that I'll be taking notes as you

Williams -

talk. I mean, in addition to the recording, I'll be taking

notes. And I'll be taking notes to help keep me focused on what

you're talking about. Because it helps me learn, as well.

Okay? So I hope that's not distracting. Could you talk a

little bit about your parents? You were born in Baker County.

Were your parents from Baker County?

Williams: M-hm. My mother. We all was born in Baker County.

We never have left Baker County.

Houston: Your father too?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So as you grew up, you had lots of relatives

around, both on your mother and your father's side.

Williams: Yeah. There was fourteen of us.

Houston: Fourteen children? Your parents had fourteen

children?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And which number were you?

Williams -

Williams: I was ... wait. I believe I was the fifth one.

Houston: You were the fifth one?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So as you were growing up, you got to do a lot of

things for the younger kids in the household.

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: So what did your parents do? I mean, where in Baker

County were they living when you were born? Were you living in

a town or in the countryside?

Williams: No. I been in the country all the while.

Houston: Okay. And what did your dad do in the countryside?

Williams: Farm.

Houston: Okay. And did he own his own farm?

Williams: No. Half-sharecropped.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. And you said he half-sharecropped. So that

means he farmed for half of the crop?

Williams: He got half and the company, Ichaway -- he was farming

for Ichaway, and they got half.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: Whatever.

Houston: Okay. So were you living on Ichaway?

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: You were living on Ichaway Plantation at the time?

Williams: M-hm. That's all I remember we lived until later

years.

Houston: Okay. So you were born there and you lived there

until much later. I mean, you were much older when you moved

away.

Williams: M-hm.

Williams -

Houston: Were there many other people living nearby?

Williams: Not really. Where we lived, we called it the Old

George House, the Old Big George House. And peoples was living

maybe miles away but nobody just didn't live right around.

Houston: Okay. But your family actually lived in something

called the Old Big George House?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. Was that a special house in some way?

Williams: That was just, I guess, the name of what they called

it. It wasn't no just special, it wasn't no really just real

good house, you know. Just old big house. Room on each side

and a big hall down there.

Houston: So it had one room on each side?

Williams: Oh, more than one room.

Houston: Okay. But rooms on each side and a middle hallway.

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Do you remember how many rooms?

Williams: It was about four rooms.

Houston: So two on each side, two rooms on each side and a

middle hallway.

Williams: ... kitchen.

Houston: So would you say there were like three bedrooms and a

kitchen and then a middle hallway?

Williams: Yeah, something like that.

Houston: Okay. And what kinds of crops did your dad raise?

Williams: Oh, cotton, corn, peanuts, velvet beans, cane, sweet

potatoes, hogs, cows.

Houston: Okay. Were all of these things cash crops or were

some of these things things that you raised for yourself, that

your dad raised for the family?

Williams -

Williams: Something like, well the corn and cotton and peanuts,

they would be ... all that was half. But the hogs and the cow,

well, he just kept two or three milk cows, you know. Sweet

potatoes and cane, that was his.

Houston: And the cane?

Williams: M-hm. So it made us have, you know, our own meat,

syrup and sweet potatoes, the biggest of what we ate.

Houston: Okay. And anything else that you needed, you bought

from the store?

Williams: M-hm. Well, something like meal or corn, well, see we

would share corn and shuck it, shuck and shed it and take it to

the mill. It was a mill ground. And they didn't mostly have

nothing to buy but something like flour, grits and coffee and

rice, stuff like that.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: Because he raised his meat.

Houston: And where did you buy the things, the things like

flour, grits and coffee and so on?

Williams -

Williams: Newton. Up in Newton.

Houston: So now did you buy the things at a plantation store or

in the town store?

Williams: In the town store.

Houston: Okay. And so you're actually now thinking back to

like the 1920s. This is back in say the 1920s, when you were a

little girl, say around ten years old?

Williams: Mmm, I probably was a little older than that.

Houston: Or this is all of your girlhood.

Williams: See, I was born 1919.

Houston: How old were you when you left your parents? When

your parents left Ichaway?

Williams: Well, I was done married. I done married.

Houston: So you actually grew up at Ichaway. You never left.

Williams -

Williams: No.

Houston: Okay. Until you got married.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And at what age was that? Or what year was

that?

Williams: I married, I think, when I was about 18.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: I still halfway lived on Ichaway because the man I

married, he was on Ichaway too.

Houston: Okay. So you got married about 1937, age 18. You

were born in 1919.

Williams: '37. Because my oldest child was born in '38.

Houston: Okay. Now you said there were not too many neighbors

around. How close were your nearest neighbors, would you say?

I mean, could you see their farms from where you lived?

Williams -

Williams: No, because we had everything all around and we had to

walk to school. But you couldn't see no neighbors until you go

visit them, you know.

Houston: Okay. How many acres would you say your dad farmed?

Williams: Oh, Lord. I don't know but he had big, big farms. I

can remember when he was running about a seven horse farm, you

know a seven horse farm.

Houston: Okay. And did he do that all by himself?

Williams: Uh-uh [no]. The children, well, when they growed up,

the boys, and my oldest sister, they plowed.

Houston: And how many boys were there?

Williams: It was six boys.

Houston: Okay. And one girl. So six boys and one girl plowed.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And your dad plowed. Did your mom?

Williams -

Williams: I never ... Well, he plowed a little but he'd get them

started and he would leave.

Houston: And when he left, where would he go?

Williams: [laughing] That's what we didn't know. He'd just go

and you know, I don't reckon it would be far because he was

walking.

Houston: Okay. Did he ever ... I mean he would just go and you

wouldn't know where he was but he'd come back when it was time

to stop working.

Williams: He'd come back for dinner, check the plows and things.

Houston: Did your dad hunt at all?

Williams: He hunted at night sometimes.

Houston: Okay. And what kind of hunting did he do? Do you

know?

Williams: Like possum hunting, and coon.

Houston: So he would have hunted with a shotgun?

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And with dogs?

Williams: M-hm. Well, no, he didn't have no dogs.

Houston: Okay. And if he had a seven horse farm, that means

you had ... I mean each of your brothers and your older sister

who plowed would have had a mule or a horse to pull the plow.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And were those kept on your farm as well? I mean you

had a barn on your farm?

Williams: M-hm. A big old barn that he would keep them in.

Houston: Okay. And that's where you kept all the equipment.

Williams: M-hm. And I can remember Ichaway had some big old --

we called them iron gray mules, you know, and my daddy kept them

butterball fat. He them. I said he give them more than

he did us.

Williams -

Houston: He took really good care of those mules, huh?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: How did he do that? How did he keep them so

butterball fat?

Williams: Well, like feed them with hay, like, you know, when

the peanuts -- when you pick the peanuts, you pick the peanuts

and bale the hay. Hay, peanuts and corn.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: Then when it come time to gather that stuff, see we

all had to work. Like I said them velvet beans, he'd plant them

velvet beans and corn. Mostly they would choke that corn down

and oooh, I hated to pick velvet beans. Them things would sting

you, just eat you. But I seen him haul loads and loads and

loads.

Houston: So you say the velvet beans, the beans and the corn

were planted together in the same field

Williams: M-hm.

Williams -

Houston: And that the bean stalks would wrap around the corn

stalks and would choke the corn down

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: so the corn wouldn't get very big?

Williams: It would get big. It'll get big. We pull that corn,

pull the corn, and then most of November and December, that's

when we had to pick the velvet beans.

Houston: So did you pick the corn at a different time? The

corn and the beans were in the same field, right?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And you said you picked the beans in November and

December?

Williams: M-hm. And January, something like that, 'til we got

through.

Houston: Okay. So you'd actually pick them when it was pretty

cold.

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And when did you pick the corn?

Williams: We'd pull the corn something like September, October,

something like that.

Houston: Okay. So you actually pulled the corn

Williams: first.

Houston: a long time before you pulled the beans.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And all the kids would work at harvest time.

Williams: Yes.

Houston: Now did your dad ever get in extra help or was it just

the family?

Williams: No. We had to do it.

Houston: Okay. What about other household duties? I mean,

Williams -

there were six boys and one girl working in the field. What

other work was there to be done around the farm? I mean, you

didn't work in the field. Well, except during harvest time. I

mean you worked in the field at harvest time. But you didn't

plow.

Williams: We worked all through while they were plowing. See,

we would be on the end like picking out the peanuts, picking the

sticks out of the peanuts, and handing the

Houston: Okay.

Williams: and handing the corn, filling up the corn dropper with

corn. And filling up the dropper with . We all were

working now, but I just never did try to learn how to plow.

Houston: Okay. So in other words, it wasn't just at harvest

time, you worked in the field -- the other children worked in

the field all the time.

Williams: Most all the time.

Houston: Whether it was weeds

Williams: M-hm. Pulling cotton. We'd go to school until about,

Williams -

from two to three days out of the week. And we had to work.

Houston: What was the school season? When did school begin?

Williams: Well, like January until maybe May and then like

maybe September until December. We went about, I would say, it

would be about maybe ... wait now. I know we started in January

and went before Christmas.

Houston: So you went before Christmas?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: But you also were working in the field a lot before

Christmas. So when you say you went to school two or three days

a week, was that before Christmas that you went to school in the

fall?

Williams: Well, both times. You know, school ... When school

was going on, farming and everything was kind of going on too

but he would let us go to school from two to three days out of

the week and the other days we had to work.

Houston: Okay. But what about in the middle of the winter, say

January to May? Were you still working on the farm during those

Williams -

times?

Williams: Pulling up corn stalks. Pulling up cotton stalks.

And piling them and burning them. Cleaning up and getting ready

for farming.

Houston: Okay. So you really worked in the field year round

and year round you only were allowed ... Your dad allowed you to

go to school only two to three days a week.

Williams: That's right.

Houston: Okay. Now, what about the other kids? I mean, did

they work as hard or was it kind of up to each family?

Williams: If they was big enough to work, they worked.

Houston: Okay. So all the kids went to school only about two

or three days a week.

Williams: M-hm. Now the younger ones, they got a chance to go a

little bit more than we did.

Houston: Okay. How much younger? At what ages are you

thinking about no? When you say the younger ones went to

Williams -

school more, how much more did they go to school and up until

... from what age to what age?

Williams: Well, I would say the two youngest ones, they did

graduate. We didn't get near that far.

Houston: Oh. Okay. And how far did the school go?

Williams: How far did the school go?

Houston: Yeah, how many grades?

Williams: Well, along in that time, tenth, you would, you know,

graduate.

Houston: Okay. And the two youngest actually finished the

tenth grade.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: This was just a country school. We called it the

Green Grove School.

Williams -

Houston: And was that on the plantation?

Williams: No, not really.

Houston: Was it in the town?

Williams: Uh-uh [no]. Just out in the country.

Houston: Okay. And do you know who paid for it? It wasn't

built by the plantation. Was it built by the county?

Williams: No. This was built by the county I guess. All I can

remember, right up here, and just at the church right up there,

you all turn. The school's there. Right over there in that

corner. But we had to walk from the Old George place to the

school. And that was about two miles or more.

Houston: Okay. Can you describe the school for me? I mean,

physically, what did it look like? What do you remember about

how it looked? Both outside and inside.

Williams: You know, it was really some old house like and they

taught in it. It had about one building. One big room. But

then the grades, like first grade was over here on this side,

and the second and third, something like that. It was about

Williams -

three teachers.

Houston: Okay. But they were altogether in this one school,

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: in this one room, there were like ten different

grades?

Williams: Well, no. My youngest sister now, they wound up going

to school in Newton. But along when we were going, that's what

it was. An old house.

Houston: Okay, so when your youngest sisters went to school

through the tenth grade, they actually went to a different ...

They went to a different school.

Williams: M-hm. They had got a better school along in that

time.

Houston: So do you remember how many grades there were at the

Green Grove School? How far you could go in the Green Grove

School? Could you go through, was it through grade seven?

Williams: You could go through eighth.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. So in this one room then, with groups of

students in different places in the room, there were probably

eight grades.

Williams: Grouped off.

Houston: Grouped off. Okay.

Williams: Everybody teaching and know they had to kind of ...

Like this group would be looking over there, but them teachers

would make you look direct, you know. Everything's going on.

Houston: Right.

Williams: But the group over here and a group over there and a

group, it just ... you know, but you had to look at your teacher

and listen as to what she was saying. It was rough, though.

But that's the way we had to do it.

Houston: So how many students would you say were there?

Williams: It should have maybe about forty or fifty or sixty.

Something like that.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. And were the students all from Ichaway or were

they from ...?

Williams: Oh, no, different.

Houston: How far away would you say they came from? Not the

whole county but from other plantations as well?

Williams: No other plantations, just from where ever, you know,

they was living around there in the country.

Houston: Okay. So, from Ichaway and the countryside and

elsewhere in the countryside.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Now when you say it was "rough" what do you mean?

Williams: Well, you know, well, it was just walking -- rainy

days, if we went, we had to walk, and it'd be cold. And we had

an old wooden heater. That's how we heated, put the heat in

there. And we had to go out and get wood and stuff, which my

daddy would haul some wood sometimes. And it would rain in the

school house.

Williams -

Houston: Oh, so the roof leaked.

Williams: M-hm. And we had, you know, the outdoor toilets. The

girls had one and the boys had one.

Houston: And what do you remember about your teachers? Do you

remember anything about your teachers? I mean, like where they

were from, who they were?

Williams: Well, they was from Newton.

Houston: From the town. So they weren't farming people.

Williams: One of my teachers living now, Leola Phipps.

Houston: Is that right? What's her name? Leola?

Williams: Leola Dudley Phipps.

Man: [inaudible]

Williams: They all was some kind of relatives like. She's about

the only one living. The others been dead.

Houston: But all three of them lived in the town, you said in

Williams -

Newton.

Williams: M-hm. Well, now one lived in Elmodel, back here in

Elmodel. Miss Kunny.

Houston: How do you spell Elmodel?

Williams: E-l-m-o-d-e-l. Wait now. Elmodel. E-l-m-o-d-e-l,

Elmodel, Georgia.

Houston: And you said, Miss Connie

Williams: She was from Elmodel.

Houston: Okay. And was Elmodel a farming community?

Williams: M-hm. It was a little old, well, we ... It was a

store there, a grocery store, and that was our little town.

What we thought, you know.

Houston: So it was the closest town to where you lived?

Williams: Closer than Newton.

Houston: Okay. And were the teachers married? They weren't

Williams -

married to farmers then? Who were the husbands of the teachers?

Williams: Well, Leola Phipps, Paul Phipps was her husband.

Houston: Okay. And what did he do?

Williams: He was a carpenter, worked to build houses and things.

But Miss Kunny, she weren't married. She didn't have any

husband. Miss Singletary, she weren't married.

Houston: So Carl Phipps was a carpenter?

Williams: M-hm. Paul.

Houston: Paul. Okay. And Miss Singletary

Williams: She wasn't married.

Houston: And what was the other woman's name, Miss Connie?

Williams: Kunny. Either Singletary or Miss Kunny, they weren't

married.

Houston: Okay. Now, since they weren't married, do you know

whether they had come from farming families? Or had they also

Williams -

grown up in the town? Do you know what their parents had done

by any chance? Do you know about their families at all?

Williams: Let's see, Miss Kunny -- I don't know whether they was

farming or not.

Houston: Okay. Well, they were all people who had grown up in

the community. They were all local people.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Tell me about how things were in the family. I mean,

what kind of responsibility did older kids have for younger

kids? I mean, you were one of the older children. There were

fourteen children and you were the fifth one.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So as an older child, did you have any responsibility

for the younger ones or were your parents kind of the ones who

sort of took care of all the kids, and took care of everything

and did all the disciplining? Did the older kids kind of act

like parents toward the younger kids?

Williams: When our mother and dad was gone, the older ones, you

Williams -

know, had to see after.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: They'd try to whoop us and all.

Houston: Now where would your parents go? You said when they

were gone. Would they sometimes go away, like to visit

relatives or something?

Williams: He would. He'd be gone. My mother would be ... when

she'd leave out the field, she would go and be cooking dinner

and all.

Houston: Okay. So in other words, out in the field when your

dad would leave and your mother would leave the field to go cook

dinner, the older kids would be in charge?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. Could you maybe just tell me what a typical day

was like? I mean, from the time you got up in the morning say.

I mean, when would the family get up? When would you go ....

and just tell me what a typical kind of day would be.

Williams -

Williams: Oh, the dawn of day.

Houston: Yeah. So tell me about a typical day because I'm a

city person. I don't know what life was like on the farm.

Stuff that you would think I should know, I probably don't know.

Williams: About sunrise or something like that, we'd be up.

Houston: Okay. So you'd get up and eat breakfast right away?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Your mother would have breakfast ready?

Williams: M-hm. She'd have breakfast ready and we'd go on to

the field. Now them boys, I've seen them get out there in

frost. There'd be a white frost out there in the field.

Houston: So the boys would go out first?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And I'm just curious, what would you have for

breakfast?

Williams -

Williams: Sometimes grits and sometimes syrup and biscuits and

ham meat, something like that.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: I just like common food. We had plenty of that

because my daddy raised hogs and he killed them and we had a

smoke house of meat.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And these big barrels of syrup.

Houston: Where'd he get the syrup from?

Williams: Raised the cane.

Houston: Oh, okay. It was cane syrup. Of course, of course.

Williams: He had a mill, you grind the cane. And he made his

own syrup. And like sweet potatoes. I've known him to have

about six or seven banks of sweet potatoes. Now something like

that, we had plenty of that to eat.

Houston: Okay. So you'd head out into the fields at the first

Williams -

light, at dawn, sometimes with a white frost on the ground.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And then so then what?

Williams: Knock off at twelve.

Houston: But what would you do in the morning? I mean, you

know, they'd go out in the fields, so they'd get the mules. I

mean, just a typical day. Like in the morning, what type of

work would you do in the morning?

Williams: Well, when they catch the mules and go to the field,

well, when they start ... well, we would carry breakfast. When

she got through with breakfast, we'd carry the breakfast to

those who are out there in the field.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And they would stop and eat. We'd carry water. And

then we had to start doing our thing, like picking out peanuts

and pouring and drop in things. And we'd be out there

doing different things until time to knock off at twelve for

dinner.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. And who took care of the animals? Did the

plowers do that? The boys and your oldest sister?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And your dad? They all cared for the animals?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And you had a family garden too?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: In which you grew vegetables and stuff like that. And

who took care of that?

Williams: Well, just all of us.

Houston: Okay. And you said whenever your parents were away,

the older kids would try to beat you if somebody misbehaved,

right?

Williams: Yes.

Williams -

Houston: What would they beat you for?

Williams: Just try to make you, you know, do things, and maybe

do what they should be doing. They'll try to make you do it,

you know.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And I'd be knowing they supposed to do and I guess I

was a little stubborn. [laughs]

Houston: Right. So you'd get in fights with them, huh?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Now what time would your mom knock off to go in the

house to cook supper?

Williams: For dinner?

Houston: U-huh [yes].

Williams: She'd knock off about eleven.

Houston: In the morning?

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. Tell me please about neighborhood kids. I mean

kids who lived nearby and playmates. I mean, did you play with

kids on nearby farms? Did you have time for recreation? Did

you play games?

Williams: Never until on Sundays, Sunday evenings. Maybe

Saturday but Saturday we always had to do our homework, like

clean yards and mop and iron. And Sunday, when we went to

Sunday school, then that's when we would play and visit.

Houston: So during the week, like Monday through Friday, it was

farm work only. And then the house work was done on Saturday.

And who did the house work? I mean, I assume there were all

kinds of things to be done around the house. [phone rings.] Do

you want me to stop that? I'll stop this for a minute.

Williams: I hope I'm talking plain enough for you.

Houston: Oh, no. Absolutely. It's crystal clear. And it's

very, very interesting. We were talking about Sunday and the

fact that that was the only day you could play. That Saturday

you had home work to do and you also had house work like mopping

Williams -

and ironing.

Williams: M-hm. Cleaning the yard.

Houston: Cleaning the yard. And I was wondering how those

household chores were divided. I mean who did what when you

were doing house work?

Williams: Well, now mostly my job was ironing. I had to iron

for everybody.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And most I would start on Friday evening, around about

three.

Houston: Okay. So you would iron from Friday evening

Williams: and Saturday morning until I finished.

Houston: Okay. And was that it for you then? That was your

job.

Williams: Yes, that was mostly mine.

Williams -

Houston: Then you were free after that to do homework.

Williams: Right. And supper. I would have to cook supper. But

that ironing -- my daddy loved his starch, ironed overalls. And

like the jumper go with it. And I would starch them and iron

all that for him and the boys.

Houston: You mean you starched and ironed theirs too?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: When you say "jumper", you mean the overalls that

button over the shoulder.

Williams: M-hm. I mean, the jumper went with the overalls. It

was a coat like but it all was there.

Houston: Okay. But it went over the overalls. And so what

would the other kids do in terms of house work? Was there a

difference between the kind of work that the boys did and the

girls did?

Williams: Well the boys, they would always, you know, like go in

the woods and get wood and get it there.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. For the stove?

Williams: Stove and our fire place.

Houston: Okay. Okay.

Williams: They would have to haul wood, you know, out of the

woods in the wagon. Take the mules and haul the wood.

Houston: Right. And so all the work inside the house was done

by women? Did the boys do any chores inside the house?

Williams: Not too much. When they got their work done, then

they could shoot marbles and play and do whatever they wanted to

do.

Houston: Okay. Tell me about the work that the women did in

the house, I mean aside from the ironing. So you said they

scrubbed and they mopped. Somebody else do sewing, for example?

Williams: Well, my mother, she, you know, she would patch like.

Like the boys wear out their knees in overalls.

Houston: Okay.

Williams -

Williams: She would patch.

Houston: Who did the wash?

Williams: Us, the girls.

Houston: Okay. And was there one day when you did that, did

the washing? Was there a particular day in the week when you

did the washing?

Williams: On Friday.

Houston: Okay. And you did that outside, I guess.

Williams: M-hm. On rub boards in tin tubs.

Houston: Okay. Did you build a fire under the water to get it

hot?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. Then you'd scrub on wash boards. Tell me about

Sunday, if you would please. What was Sunday like? I mean the

typical Sunday from the time you got up.

Williams -

Williams: We had to get up, go in the Sunday school, going to

church. Sunday school. And then when we got back from Sunday

school, that would be our little pleasure to play and visit.

Houston: So you went to Sunday school and church?

Williams: Well, you know, sometimes just Sunday school. And

then we didn't have church until once a month. We'd go to

Sunday school, then come back home and visit and play.

Houston: Okay. But you went to Sunday school every Sunday.

Williams: Every Sunday.

Houston: And church once a month. Where did you go to church

or Sunday school? Did you go to Sunday school and church in the

same place?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And where was that?

Williams: Back then, this same church you can barely see it, but

back in then it was way back there in the woods.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. And what's it called?

Williams: Hm?

Houston: What's the name of it?

Williams: Green Grove.

Houston: Green Grove, right. Okay. Same as the school.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So was Green Grove School in the same building

as the church? Was it the same building? A different building.

Williams: Different.

Houston: Okay. So it was Green Grove Baptist Church?

Williams: Methodist.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: Because see the church sits way back in the woods but

the school was up here at the corner where this church is now.

Williams -

But this church, where it is now, it weren't there then.

Houston: Okay. Who taught Sunday school?

Williams: A man by the name of Mr. Calvin Wright.

Houston: And was he a farmer?

Williams: I think he worked at wagers.

Houston: He worked at wagers?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: What was wagers?

Williams: That was something like working by the day, getting

paid by the day.

Houston: Oh, okay. But he worked in the countryside?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: He worked on Ichaway?

Williams -

Williams: No, not on Ichaway. On some of the Halls place.

Man: Those were Black, right. Halls was Black.

Williams: No, some of the Halls was White. But them that he

worked for, they was White.

Houston: So he worked for a White family named Hall?

Williams: M-hm. What was their name? John Bryant Hall.

Houston: John Bryant?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And again, I guess, the children who attended

Sunday school and the people who attended church were like the

people who went to the regular school. That is they were from

Ichaway as well as folks who lived out in the county.

Williams: All from around.

Houston: So they were basically the same children you went to

school with, is that right?

Williams -

Williams: Right.

Houston: So after church, would you stay around the church and

play with them there around the church?

Williams: No we would

Houston: go home?

Williams: We would go home with some of the children or either

they would go home with us. We didn't stay and play at the

church.

Houston: Okay. And when you'd go home with them or when they'd

come home with you, what would you do? What kinds of things

would you play?

Williams: Like play ball and play running. Some kind of ring

play.

Houston: Okay. What about toys? Did you guys have toys when

you were little?

Williams: Not too many.

Williams -

Houston: Say homemade toys, any kind of toys? Would you just

kind of make things up?

Williams: We didn't have too many toys. We had like for

Christmas, you know, they would buy a few toys.

Houston: So what kinds of things would you get for Christmas?

Williams: Something like a doll. And the boys would get

something like a train or a truck or something like that.

Houston: But everybody would get something different?

Williams: M-hm. Most of the girls got dolls.

Houston: Okay. And boys would get things like trucks.

Williams: Trucks and wagons and like a harp, you know, just

something like that.

Houston: You know, speaking of a harp or music, did anybody in

the family make music?

Williams: You know, not no real good music, but they'd blow the

harp, you know. Just blow in and be acting with it.

Williams -

Houston: But nobody really played like a harmonica or a mouth

harp or anything like that?

Williams: No.

Houston: Okay. And you had lots of cousins and people living

nearby because your family was from Baker County. Did you see

them very often? Your relatives?

Williams: Just like I said, kind of on weekends. That's the

onliest time we had time to visit or play.

Houston: Okay. Did any of your relatives go to Green Grove

Church?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So what relatives went to Green Grove Church?

Williams: Well, we had two different sets of Washingtons. But

we had all was kin. And they went. My cousins, they went to

school, Sunday school and to Green Grove Church.

Houston: Okay. So your maiden name is Davis. [End of Tape 1,

Williams -

Side A]

[Begin Tape 1, Side B]

Houston: So, you would play on Sunday afternoons when there

wasn't church and I guess your playmates or relatives would

leave before dark?

Williams: M-hm. And sometimes we would have, you know, church

at night. We'd play 'til time to go back to church.

Houston: Okay. What was the occasion for church at night? How

often did that happen?

Williams: Once a month when the church would be in the daytime

beside. I'm talking about beside Sunday School. Then we'd go

to church that Sunday then go back that Sunday evening.

Houston: Oh, okay. So you had church once a month but you

always had it in the daytime and in the evening.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And what would you do? Would there be a

difference between what you did in the daytime and what you did

in the evening?

Williams -

Williams: No difference. Same kind of service.

Houston: As you got older, I mean as kids get older, they

start, you know, girls start getting interested in boys and boys

start getting interested in girls. But it sounds like you were

so busy working that the only time that boys and girls would

have an opportunity -- I mean this is like after they're, I

don't know, 12, 13, 14 years old in there somewhere. You know,

little boys start getting interested in little girls and so on.

But it sounds like the only time they would have to meet would

be at school. They would see each other at school. But that's

only two or three days a week.

Williams: At school. Off like on Sunday.

Houston: Sunday evening? You mean Sunday afternoon or Sunday

evening?

Williams: Sunday, well, it wouldn't be night, you know. Sunday

evening. You know, like if the girls took the boys

would go out. That's when it would be. But the boys would be

going like on Saturday night. You know.

Houston: Where would they go?

Williams -

Williams: They had a certain time to be back.

Houston: Well, where would the boys go on Saturday night?

Williams: Going to see their little girls.

Houston: Well, but how did that work? I mean, they could go to

somebody's house and visit little girls on Saturday night? So

when you were a little girl, did boys come and visit you on

Saturday night?

Williams: Sometimes. But most on Sunday evening.

Houston: Okay. So would boys then go ... would they do other

things on Saturday night? Could boys just kind of go out and do

what they wanted to do on Saturday nights?

Williams: Yeah. But, you know, they couldn't stay out like they

stay out now. They had to be back at least no later than eleven

o'clock. They had to be home.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And we had to be home before sundown.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. When boys did come over to visit, whether it

was Saturday night or Sunday, what did you do? I mean, you

know, if a boy came over to see you on a Saturday night or a

Sunday, what would he do when he came to your house? I mean,

could you go for a walk? Would you sit on the porch?

Williams: No. We'd sit and talk awhile inside.

Houston: Inside rather than out.

Williams: Or we could sit on the porch, you know, if it was ...

Houston: Okay. Would they come over for dinner on Sunday?

Would they ever stay for dinner?

Williams: [no]

Houston: Okay.

Williams: They didn't come that early. Kind of like three and

four o'clock, something like that.

Houston: So what time did you eat dinner?

Williams -

Williams: We'd eat dinner when we'd get back from church. And

that would be around about one or two o'clock.

Houston: And then late at night, say around six, you'd eat

again? No? Okay.

Williams: You know, if there were leftovers, you could eat that.

Houston: Okay. Now, you said your dad farmed for half shares.

And that you shopped in town. So did your dad buy things in

town at the store on credit? I'm wondering now about settling

up and about whether there were ever problems settling up, you

know, at harvest time.

Williams: Well, not as I know of because, you know, he never did

really let us know nothing about his business or nothing, you

know. When he'd go to get his settlement, all he would do come

back and say what he got or what he didn't get and it'd be

borrowing money on the next year of crop.

Houston: Who would he borrow that money from? The landowner of

Ichaway? Or from the merchant?

Williams: Ichaway, the landowner.

Williams -

Houston: But he never told you how much profit he made or did

he tell you?

Williams: I don't remember him telling nothing. Might have told

my momma. He didn't tell us. Because my daddy was kind of like

a courting man.

Houston: Like a what? Like a courting man?

Williams: [laughs] He kept back, I just imagine, a lot. But

all we knowed to do is work.

Houston: Okay. Okay. Do you know if he borrowed money from

the store? I mean, did he ever have to buy things on credit

from the store, you know, like clothes and stuff like that?

Williams: I don't think he did. Like clothes he would buy from

some of them Howell store down there. Because you know he never

did ... We didn't never go to town. He'd mostly go and do what

to be done.

Houston: So your dad would go to town when? Like on Saturdays?

Williams: On Saturdays.

Williams -

Houston: But he didn't take the family?

Williams: Uh-uh. [no]

Houston: Not your mother either?

Williams: Sometimes she would go. Most times, if she wanted to

stay home and patch and get the clothes ready for the next week,

she would do that.

Houston: Okay. Now were all of the people who lived on

Ichaway, I mean, all the people that you saw on Ichaway, other

Black farming families? Or were there, you know, like Whites

living there too?

Williams: It was Black and White.

Houston: Okay. And what were the Whites doing?

Williams: They would work the same way -- sharecropping.

Houston: So there were White sharecroppers there too.

Williams: M-hm.

Williams -

Houston: Were there a lot of Whites there? I mean, how many

Williams: I believe it was more Blacks than it was White.

Houston: Okay. And did you see the little White kids? Did you

see them?

Williams: No. We didn't live nowhere near them.

Houston: Okay. So were the White farmers and the Black farmers

living in different parts of the plantation?

Williams: Yeah, because none of the Whites ... We always lived

kind of off, kinda like, from everybody.

Houston: Okay. I guess because you had such a big farm. I

mean, you had a big family so you had a seven horse farm.

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: And so everybody ...

Williams: That reached out, you know, a long ways.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. Well, do you know were there any Black families

living near White families on Ichaway? I mean, were there

situations where Black families and White families lived next to

each other, that you know of?

Williams: Not as I remember.

Houston: So, and Black kids and White kids didn't play

together?

Williams: Oh no.

Houston: What about the landowner? Did you ever see the

landowner around the farm? Did he ever come around to see how

things were going?

Williams: Well, he had like a overseer, the rider, but the big

man. You know, he lived in Atlanta, and had a overseer that see

everything down at the ....

Houston: And he was White?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay.

Williams -

Williams: And he'd always ride the farms, you know. And

whatever Daddy said he needed some more fertilizer or something

like that, you know, he could go get it.

Houston: And what was he like?

Williams: What was he like? The overseer?

Houston: Yeah. I mean, you know ... What kind of relationship

did your daddy have with him?

Williams: Oh, they had a good relation. Because my daddy would

his eyeball out for him.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And make them good crops. Like if he make sixteen

loads of corn, then he'd keep eight and give him eight.

Houston: Now, so if he made sixteen loads of corn, your dad

would keep eight and he'd give eight, not to the overseer, but

to the landowner -- or to the overseer?

Williams: To the overseer because he would be seen. They had a

Williams -

barn down there. All they had to do ... My daddy'd carry the

corn and unload it, you know, and come back. They'd know where

everything was.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: If he made like twenty tons of peanuts, that went the

same way.

Houston: Okay. And the overseer had a big barn where he kept

everything.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So all these goods flowed into the overseer's barn

from the various Black farms on the plantation. Okay. Were

there every any problems on the plantation? Every any

disagreements that you recall? Any fights? Any violence?

Anything like that, ever any trouble?

Williams: Not as I'm, you know, because along then ... I reckon

the White folks just told the Blacks what to do and at that

time, they did it.

Houston: So you don't know of any instance where a Black didn't

Williams -

do what he was told to do, or she was told to do?

Williams: No.

Houston: Okay. No instances where somebody crossed the line,

as they say, and did something they weren't, you know, that

Whites didn't like?

Williams: No, not as I remember.

Houston: Okay. What would happen if a Black farmer got sick?

Let's say, he had an accident, say, you know, he broke his leg

or fell off a roof, or just got sick and couldn't farm. What

would happen?

Williams: Well, I hadn't known it to happen but I guess if it

would happen, just like if it would have happened to my daddy,

well see, the boys would have carried for our momma.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: But I never known it to happen.

Houston: Okay. Who were the leaders of the community? I mean,

what would you say were the boundaries of your community? I

Williams -

mean, how far ... the community included all the farming

families on Ichaway? Did you know all of the Black farming

families on Ichaway?

Williams: No. I didn't know them all.

Houston: How many families would you say you knew, or your

family knew? People at church, all those people who went to the

church you went to? Green Grove.

Williams: No. Some of them, it was another church they called

Nachaway. Most Ichaway peoples went to the church at Nachaway.

It's a Methodist church.

Houston: So would it be safe to say that all of the Black

farmers at Ichaway were Methodists, whether they went to Green

Grove or whether they went to Nachaway Church?

Williams: I wouldn't say all of them was Methodists.

Houston: Okay. So there was Baptists?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. But you did say that Green Grove was a

Williams -

Methodist church?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. Who would you say were the leaders of your

community? I mean, who were the Black leaders that, you know,

farmers would look to? Were there ever ... Do you ever remember

like a -- I don't know -- Who would you say the leaders of the

community were? Like the minister?

Williams: The leaders?

Houston: Yeah. Was the minister ... Did Black farmers ever

turn to other Blacks for advice? For example, if somebody died,

how would they get buried? I mean, when people died, they were

buried at the church? At the church graveyard?

Williams: Yes, you know, if they belonged to that church.

Houston: Okay. And if they belonged to another church, they

would be buried at their own church graveyard.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And was there like a burial fund that people paid

Williams -

into?

Williams: No. At that time, wherever the church was, if it was

on Ichaway, then they just, you know, bury for nothing because

they ... gave them that.

Houston: Okay. Now, how old were you when you got married?

Williams: I should have been something like 17 or 18, something

like that.

Houston: And how did you meet your husband?

Williams: Well, he was on Ichaway.

Houston: Okay. So he was a neighbor, his family was a

neighbor.

Williams: Well, he lived a good ways from us, a long ways, but,

you know, he would come there.

Houston: So, how'd you meet him?

Williams: I can't remember when I first met him. I don't know

whether we was at church or it might have been to a ball game or

Williams -

somewhere. I don't know.

Houston: At a ball game?

Williams: Could have been.

Houston: Tell me about the ball games. I mean, how often would

there be ball games and from how far away would people come?

What kind of ball game?

Williams: It would be Ichaway ball game and they would play most

every Sunday. Some Saturdays they would practice but they'd

play on Sunday. Different teams and what not.

Houston: So they practiced on Saturday, played on Sunday

afternoon?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And this is baseball?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And they played at a field on the plantation?

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Was there like a community facility or this was just a

field where they just played?

Williams: A field.

Houston: Just on a field, okay. And this was a regular thing

that happened?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And would they play teams from other plantations? Or

would they just make up teams on the plantation?

Williams: Teams from other

Houston: From other plantations?

Williams: From other places, you know. Didn't have to be a

plantation, just like a team from Albany or a team from Leery or

Bainbridge, just, you know. And that same ball game there

today.

Houston: So on Sunday then, these teams from other places would

Williams -

come in and would people from other places come in to see their

teams play? Would people come in from Albany and from

Bainbridge and Leery?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And they'd come in by what? Like horse and wagon?

Williams: Well, oh, back then you mean?

Houston: Well, I mean any time.

Williams: Well, mostly they'd walk. Well, they weren't playing

like ... like I'm saying, like teams then. They would just, you

know, play. But it mostly was in walking.

Houston: Within walking distance?

Williams: Yes.

Houston: So when you were a little girl, say, before you got

married, people didn't come from as far away as Albany or

Bainbridge?

Williams: No, no.

Williams -

Houston: That was much later.

Williams: M-hm. That was later.

Houston: Okay. So I mean, you got to meet some new people at

these ball games. I mean, you would see new people that you

didn't ordinarily see at these ball games.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Were there other functions like that? I mean, like

county fairs or were there, you know, was there ever a county

fair? Did you ever go to county fairs?

Williams: County fairs?

Houston: You know, like Baker County. Did Baker County ever

have a fair where they'd have live stock and stuff like that?

Houston: So really, it was the ball game were you'd kind of

meet new people. You may have met your husband at a ball game.

Williams: May have. I don't ... Maybe.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. Okay. And you met him and you got married

about age 17 or 18. And where did you live?

Williams: Well, I lived still on Ichaway with his mother and

daddy until we moved out.

Houston: And how long was that?

Williams: Maybe we stayed there around two years.

Houston: And when you moved out, where'd you go?

Williams: We moved ... It was off Ichaway then. Above Edmonds

there, with Charlie Burke.

Houston: To Charlie Burke's plantation?

Williams: His farm.

Houston: Okay. Is it B-u-r-t?

Williams: B-u-r-k-e.

Houston: Okay. So your husband started working for shares on

Charlie Burke's ...

Williams -

Williams: No. He just worked by the day.

Houston: Okay. And Charlie Burke provided a house?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Let's see, this would have been late 1930s.

Williams: Something like that.

Houston: Yeah, if you married at 17 or 18 and you lived with

his parents two years, then that would have been around 19 ...

and you were born in 1919, that would have been around 1939.

Now, during this time, you know, this was in the 1930s, were you

aware of Black farmers losing their farms? Not being able to

make crops because ... Were there problems with farmers not

being able to make crops and staying on plantations or staying

on farms?

Williams: Well, now, my husband had a problem of staying on

farms. He was just somebody, you know, if they mad, he would

leave. He would just quit work and go. And I had to be

following him until I just got tired of that. We'd move about

every year. And I just got fed up with that. I wanted to get

Williams -

somewhere and stay.

Houston: What kinds of things did he get angry about?

Williams: Like money and if it rained, he wouldn't ... you know,

mostly if it rained and you couldn't plow, they always had

something else for you to do like cutting bushes and all like

that. And he didn't like all that. And he'd just leave.

Houston: So he would leave before the

Williams: Before we gather and all like that.

Houston: He'd just pick up and move. I mean, he'd get angry

and leave immediately.

Williams: M-hm. And go to some of his folks; they'd find

somewhere else to stay.

Houston: I mean, when he moved, would you stay always in the

same county?

Williams: Yeah. It would be in the same county.

Houston: And he did that a lot, huh?

Williams -

Williams: Mostly.

Houston: Did he get like a bad reputation among people? Were

people reluctant to hire him because he had a reputation?

Williams: He could get a job. He used to get a job but he just

would leave it if there was something about it he didn't like.

Houston: Okay. And did you ever settle down or were you always

moving around?

Williams: Moving around 'til I got tired and just quit him.

Houston: You quit him?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Did you have any children?

Williams: Oh yeah. We had six children.

Houston: And when did you finally quit him?

Williams: In the forties, I believe, sometime in the forties.

Williams -

Houston: Do you remember whether it was early or late forties?

Williams: It could have been '47.

Houston: So after the war?

Williams: After the war?

Houston: Yeah, after World War II. World War II was over in

'45, around there some time. Where were you living at the time

you quit your husband?

Williams: We was living right up -- when you all came down 200,

we was living right up there on 200. Miss Fannie Hall was

running that. I left and went to Camilla to my uncle and stayed

about a year and a half. And when I came back, then I was on my

own.

Houston: So you lived with what? Your mother's brother?

Williams: My daddy's brother.

Houston: You took your six kids there, to Camilla?

Williams -

Williams: No, I didn't take but two. I left the others with my

momma.

Houston: So you took the two youngest?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And you said you stayed with your uncle for

about a year.

Williams: Maybe a year and a half, something like that.

Houston: So you stayed twelve to eighteen months. And when you

returned, you said you were on your own. How did you support

yourself?

Williams: I got me a house and went to farming with Harrison

Hawkin.

Houston: Who's that? He was a friend?

Williams: Well, I knowed him for a year. And my oldest son, he

plowed. We farmed with him.

Houston: So you shared a farm with Harrison Hawkins or he had a

Williams -

farm nearby? Did you have your own farm?

Williams: No. No. We just worked. My son just, you know,

plowed every day and when time to gather, we all hoed. Just

getting paid by the day, you know.

Houston: Okay. So when you say it was your own farm, you

weren't farming for shares. But your son was simply working on

the land. And you had a place to live but you were really

working by the day.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And I'm not clear who Harrison Hawkins was.

Williams: You know, he was a landowner. He had land.

Houston: Oh, okay. So you were on Harrison Hawkins' farm?

Williams: M-hm. And I guess I stayed there about two years.

And then I moved on the Miller farm.

Houston: Okay. Which is also nearby.

Williams: It joined. The land joined.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. And the same arrangement? I mean, you were

working for Miller by the day.

Williams: M-hm. Well, we didn't work by the day there. We

shared with the Millers like sharecrop.

Houston: So you were on one-half share with the Millers. And I

assume that was better than working by the day?

Williams: It was.

Houston: You made more?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So it was your oldest son then who was doing

the plowing?

Williams: M-hm. Well, then the other one had growed up. I had

about two sons plowing.

Houston: Okay. So you had two sons plowing.

Man: Miller was White or Black?

Williams -

Williams: Black.

Houston: Oh, is that right? Harrison Miller was

Williams: Black.

Houston: Okay. What was Miller's first name?

Williams: Miller? Julius. Julius Miller.

Houston: Julius. Were there many Black landowners around?

Williams: M-hm. All these Hawkins.

Houston: Hawkins was Black too?

Williams: M-hm. They got their little land and everything.

Houston: So how many Black families would you say in the area

owned their own land?

Williams: Ooooh, I would say ... well really, all ... But we

don't know around in here now. But all this section around in

here is Black and they got their land. They got all this

Williams -

Hawkins Town.

Houston: So the name of this area is Hawkins Town?

Williams: I'm at the beginning and owned ...

Houston: So a lot of the people who were at Green Grove

Methodist Church were landowners? They owned their own farms?

Williams: Well, I wouldn't say member of Green Grove because

they most of them were Thankful, the Baptist church on 91. All

of Hawkins.

Houston: What's the name of the church?

Williams: Thankful. Thankful Baptist Church.

Houston: Thankful? T-h-a-n-k-

Williams: f-u-l.

Houston: Okay. Thankfull Baptist Church. So when your husband

was getting angry and walking off farms, I just assumed those

were White farms that he was walking off of.

Williams -

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Did he not work for Black landowners, your husband?

Williams: Well, he might have but me and him weren't together

then.

Houston: Okay. But when you and he were together, he only

worked for White landowners?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So how long did you work Julius Miller?

Williams: Oh, a long time. I moved to the Millers in '50 and I

worked there 'til about in the seventies. 'Cause he passed

sometime in that time and then ... Well, when I moved from the

Millers, I moved right here.

Houston: Okay. And when was that?

Williams: When what?

Houston: I'm sorry. When you moved here.

Williams -

Williams: Oh, in '72.

Houston: Now during this time, from the 1950s until you moved

here, you were sharecropping on the Millers' farm.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: You said you had six kids altogether and in 1950 you

had two sons who were doing the plowing. How many sons do you

have altogether?

Williams: Well, I have in all seven sons and three daughters.

Houston: Seven sons.

Williams: I have ten children in all.

Houston: Okay. So you had four more children after you moved

here?

Williams: No. Around to the Millers.

Houston: I'm sorry. That's what I meant. I meant around to

the Millers, in 1950.

Williams -

Williams: M-hm. That's when my son, Judge Williams, was born in

'50.

Houston: Okay. So Judge Henry Williams was born. Were there

people, I mean, during the forties, were there people leaving

this area? Were there fewer farmers? Some people from this

area had gone off, I presume, during the war. Say in the early

forties, were there people going away to the war?

Williams: Well, some.

Houston: Okay. And during the fifties, after you moved to the

Millers' farm, was there NAACP activity in this area? Do you

remember any NAACP activities during the forties, either during

the war or ....

Williams: Well, I can remember it was but mostly it was kind of

what you would say, kind of

Man: [inaudible]

Williams: M-hm. I remember, oh, I liked to recall this old

man's name. His used to get the newspaper.

Houston: The Crisis.

Williams -

Williams: But he would walk to Albany for news. Walk to Albany

and pick up this paper. The NAACP was going on then but they

was handling it through, you know, trying not to let the Whites

know about it. I can't call his name.

Houston: And would people then, I mean, once the old man got

the newspaper, would people read it and kind of talk about what

was in it but do it quietly so the White folks ....

Williams: Do it quietly, secretly like. Because he didn't want

them to even know he was going to Albany to pick it up. You

know, he would leave walking. He wouldn't ask nobody to take

him. He would leave walking.

Houston: Do you know where he would pick it up?

Williams: Not really. I didn't know what, you know, parts of

Albany he would pick it up at.

Houston: Okay. Did you ever people talking about this? This

was when, now? This was in the forties?

Williams: In the fifties like. That's when I remember it.

Williams -

Houston: So is that the first time

Williams: Nate Washington! That's what he was named. Mr. Nate

Washington. He was kind of old.

Houston: Was he a relative?

Williams: No.

Houston: He wasn't one of the three, two Washington families

that were related?

Williams: Un-uh [no]. Different Washington.

Houston: Okay. So is the first recollection you have of the

NAACP from the time that you were living on the Miller farm? Do

you remember hearing about the NAACP before that?

Williams: Well, just a little sneaky bit was kind of coming in,

long in then.

Houston: Before you moved onto the Millers.

Williams: But they weren't talking it. You know, just kind of

secretly like.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. So what kind of things would they talk about?

Do you remember? When it was real secretive, do you remember

what people talked about?

Williams: Well, really, they wouldn't talk it in front of us.

There just was certain peoples that would, you know, I would say

like, well, kind of like landowners. Kind of like I would say

Old Man Nate Washington. Old Man Julius Miller. And Mr. Josh

Williams. And who else? Carl Broadway and T. Kunny. Like

them. They would just, you know, get together and talk. But

when it really broke out, that's when ... The White got hold to

it somehow or another. I don't know how but that's when they

went to bombing Mr. Josh Williams' house, and Carl Broadway.

Houston: And when did that happen?

Williams: That was some time in '50. Somewhere in '50. No,

that was probably in the sixties. The last of the fifties or

the sixties, one.

Houston: When Whites found out that Blacks were joining the

NAACP, they started bombing. They bombed Josh Williams'?

Williams: Josh Williams' house. And Carl Broadway's house.

Williams -

What did they do to T. Kunny?

Houston: Carl who?

Williams: Carl Broadway.

Houston: Broadway?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And T. Kunny?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: C-u-n-n

Williams: K-u-n-n-y. They did something to him.

Houston: So this was late 1950s?

Williams: Maybe sixties. In '60.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: I would say that's when the NAACP did start, kind of

Williams -

getting out, you know.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And then that's when they went to doing that damage.

Houston: Okay. So before that, it had been really secretive.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: I mean people ... But it was mainly the people who

owned their own farms who were involved in it, mainly the

landowners.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Was it that people who didn't own their own farms were

not invited to join?

Williams: Well, they could have joined but, you know, they

didn't talk as much because I guess they didn't want it to get

out. But somehow or another, it got out. Then finally it got

open. And that's when all this ... got involved in it.

Houston: Okay. But you said that people who farmed for shares

Williams -

or who worked for wages on farms could have joined but that they

didn't join. Is that right?

Williams: I believe they could have.

Houston: But why didn't they, do you know? Do you have any

idea why they didn't join?

Williams: Well, you know, like some peoples talk, you know,

ain't got no secrets. Just talk, talk. And I guess they was

trying, I guess, keep it from them. I don't know.

Houston: So you think the landowners may not have wanted too

many people to join?

Williams: Well, I never, you know, I didn't ... I don't know

whether they did or not but that was just along in the time I

heard about it, you know.

Houston: Okay. So you heard about it about the time it was

breaking out and this was in the late fifties.

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: Okay.

Williams -

Man: And the way you said about talk, that meant they didn't

want to talk to people that wasn't reliable, you know. A man

with the responsibility of hundreds acres of land, two, three

hundred acres of land, has so much to lose while the man that is

not a landowner, well he could have hardly anything because he

had nothing to lose.

Williams: Maybe that's the way it was. It was some kind of way

like that.

Houston: Right.

Williams: Because they just didn't want ... I mean they wouldn't

talk with Dick, Tom and Harry, you know what I'm trying to say.

Houston: Right. Right. But for the most part, Reverend

Wellesley, I mean, it sounds like the majority of the NAACP

activists, the people who were active in the organization, the

members, were landowners and yeah, maybe it was that they were

afraid that the non-landowners would not keep the secret so

well. Or, you know, maybe it was that the non-landowners were

afraid because they were, after all, dependent for their homes

on the White landowners.

Williams -

Man: Yes.

Houston: I mean, they were more vulnerable. The landowners

were a bit more independent. They could afford to take a few

more chances because nobody could put them out of their house.

Williams: Yeah, that's one thing. That's number one.

Houston: Perhaps. Yeah. I'm just wondering whether anybody

talked about it and whether you actually heard anything.

Whether there was any indication of why non-landowners didn't

join so much. We can speculate about it but I was just

wondering whether anybody said anything about it.

Williams: Well, you near about covered that part because I

believe that would have been it because if, you know, if the

non-landowners would really participate and the White knowed it

and you was living their land, you would have to move if they

found out you was participating.

Houston: They'd put you out, right. Now what about bombings?

You said that when word got out, either in the late fifties or

early sixties, that some of the landowners were active in the

NAACP, that ... [End of Tape 1, Side B]

Williams -

[Begin Tape 2, Side A]

Houston: ... I mean, who was doing the bombing?

Williams: Well, see, that's what you really wouldn't know

because they wouldn't do. They'd get out ... [tape goes blank

for a bit] ... for it.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: They'd be knowing about what they going to do. You

know, I just imagine they be done discussed it that day. And

then when night come, that's when they do their dirt.

Houston: Okay. What could Blacks do to protect themselves? I

mean what did they do? What strategies could Blacks take to

protect themselves from reprisals? I mean, if someone was

active in the NAACP, what could he do to protect himself if word

was out that he was active? I mean, you know, did Blacks arm

themselves? Did they leave? Did they call over neighbors to

help them? I mean, what could they do?

Williams: Well, arm themselves. All I knew was lately after

then, that's when Jose Miller got killed. And then that's when

all of us got involved then. What year? I don't know what year

was that now.

Williams -

Houston: Tell me about the circumstances surrounding Jose?

Williams: Josie, Jose Miller.

Houston: Josie Miller. Yeah. Just tell me about the

circumstances. What happened? Why was he killed and who killed

him? Just tell me about the circumstances.

Williams: Well, I guess Grace could tell you more than I could.

Houston: Grace?

Williams: U-huh [yes]. This is his wife. But I know he was ...

M.C. Gray, he had some of his cows. Well, the cows just broke

out and got in the field and he never did get the cows. And

Josie just raised the cows, just fed them along with his, and

everything. And he kept the cows so long until the cows had

calves and I think he wound up with about maybe four or five

calves. And in the winter, you know, if you don't just really

feed cows, they'll get poor. And Josie took care of the cows

and fed them and kept them just so, like he did his. Then when

he got ready, he come and wanted the cows. And then Josie

thought by he had took care of them, maybe he should give him

one, at least give him a cow. And from that, I think they got

Williams -

in an argument or something. But anyway, he shot him.

Man: He wanted to pick out the best bred cow, you know, the

finest cow.

Houston: Josie did.

Man: The White man.

Williams: The White man.

Man: Picked the best bred cows because he wanted to pick the

best looking cows.

Williams: And I think that was Josie's.

Man: The White man wanted the best looking cows. He, Mr.

Miller, knew that was his cow. But the White man wanted to

claim that cow for his cow.

Houston: Okay. So the issue was that Grace claimed Miller's

cow as his own, or cows as his own. In other words, he had four

or five cows and some calves but he wanted to take not the ones

that were actually his but the nicest ones he could find. And

those happened to be Miller's cows.

Williams -

Man: That's right.

Williams: And that was ... Who'd I say killed Josie?

Houston: Grace.

Williams: Un-uh [no]. That's his wife. She didn't kill him.

Man: M.C. Gray.

Houston: Oh, M.C. Grace!

Williams: M.C. Gray.

Houston: M.C. Gray.

Williams: And Cal Hall. Them was the two men together. M.C.

Gray and Cal Hall.

Houston: Cal?

Williams: M-hm. Hall. Now between the two, I know one had to

do it.

Williams -

Houston: Okay. Shot Miller.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And, Reverend, do you know when this was?

Williams: Can you recall what year?

Man: I know it was ... I heard his daughter said she had it

marked but by the time she ... was she coming out of school?

But you go interview Mrs. ...

Houston: Yeah, I'm going to try to interview Mrs. Sherrod. She

is Miller's daughter.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: But I'm just trying to get an idea of when this was

for the purpose of this interview. This was around 1960?

Williams: I believe it was in '60.

Houston: So it was after the sit-ins.

Williams: I don't know whether it was '65 or '66.

Williams -

Houston: So it was late.

Williams: But that's when we got involved in our marching, I

believe.

Houston: Now where did that happen? Did that happen here in

Baker County?

Williams: M-hm. About a mile around that way.

Houston: Now this Josie Miller was related to Julius Miller,

the landowner?

Williams: She was an in-law.

Man: Josie is

Williams: Walter Miller.

Man: Walter Miller's wife. And that's Mrs. Sherrod's aunt.

Houston: But I thought the man who owned the cows, the man who

was killed, was Josie Miller.

Williams -

Williams: The man who was killed?

Houston: Yeah, the Miller who was killed.

Williams: That was Hosey Miller was killed.

Houston: Hosey. Okay. Sorry. Hosey Miller was killed. Okay.

You say and that was about a mile from here?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And you said people started marching in protest?

Williams: Yeah, well, by that time, Sherrod and them had set up

a time and a group and they came down and us met to Grace.

Houston: I'm sorry. Sherrod set up the time and place?

Williams: U-huh [yes].

Houston: And what happened?

Williams: And we, you know, talked about it and he talked with

us and told us, you know, he let us know that we couldn't be ...

we had to be non-violent, right?

Williams -

Man: Right.

Williams: And it was a good time, quite a while, before I could

say I'd be non-violent. I said, because anybody hit me, they

getting it back. He said, "No, no. You can't do that." So

finally we got together and started marching. I think that was

in '66. '65 we started. But '66 and '67, that's sure enough

when we did it.

Houston: So in other words, it was the murder that kind of

sparked things off.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: There was nothing going on here in terms of civil

rights in Baker County before the murder.

Williams: That's what really started it, as it's said, let the

cat out of the water.

Man: It started openly. You all didn't try to hide it no

longer.

Williams: Un-uh [no].

Williams -

Houston: And how long was there ... I mean, describe for me the

process by which people, you know, got angry, and what happened?

I mean, Sherrod came out and he set up a time and place. So

where ... Is that what happened? Sherrod came out and called a

meeting, contacted people and told them there was going to be a

meeting?

Williams: Well, he came, yeah. I don't know where. I guess

Sherrod had heard about this, you reckon?

Man: M-hm. And the voter registration was a part of the effort

from that point. Registering people to vote.

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: So part of the protest of the murder became voter

registration?

Man: After that.

Houston: Yes. Part of the reaction to the murder.

Man: That's right.

Williams -

Houston: One of the things was to demonstrate publicly by

marching, is that right?

Man: M-hm.

Houston: And the other was voter registration.

Man: That's right.

Houston: Okay, now, where did you march to and where did you

march from? And how soon after the killing did the marching

begin?

Williams: Right after the killing. It didn't take long to set

it up because everybody was so upset.

Houston: So when you say right after, how much after? How

long?

Williams: I don't really like to know how long but it didn't

take no two or three weeks. We soon got together.

Houston: So it was a matter of days. And how did that happen?

Who said "we should do something"? How did it happen? Did

somebody say, you know, "we have to do something"? And who was

Williams -

that? What was it they said needed to be done? How did you

make the decision to start marching?

Williams: Well after Sherrod talked with us, because we didn't

know nothing, you know, but he talked with us and he let us, you

know, did our own judging whether or not we wanted to do it.

And so we was ready to do whatever. So we just met, had

meetings and met and began, set a date to start marching.

Houston: So where did you have the meetings?

Williams: Well, after we quit meeting to Gray's house, we met at

the church.

Houston: I'm sorry. Tell me about the meetings at Gray's

house. I don't know about Gray's house.

Williams: Well, that's where we set it up at.

Houston: So you had the first meeting at Gray's house?

Williams: M-hm. Maybe the second, two or three.

Houston: Okay. Now what is Gray's house?

Williams -

Man: That's the man's house that was killed. Grace's house.

Houston: I thought his name was Miller.

Williams: Hosey. But that's his wife.

Man: Grace's last name is Miller.

Houston: Oh, I'm sorry. At Gray's house. Was it Gray or

Grace?

Man: Grace Miller.

Houston: Okay, wait a minute. I'm confused now. Jose is the

person who was killed.

Williams: That was Hose's house.

Houston: And what was Jose's last name?

Williams: What? Jose's wife's name? Grace.

Man: Grace Miller.

Houston: What was Jose's last name, Hosey's last name?

Williams -

Man: Miller.

Houston: Miller. But the first meeting was at Gray's house?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And he was the person who tried to take the cows.

Man: He was her husband. It was between her husband that got

killed. The cow thing was between the White man and Miss Grace

Miller's husband.

Houston: Okay. So the first meeting was at Grace Miller's

house?

Man: That's right. The man that got killed's house.

Houston: Okay. And who called that meeting? I mean, how did

that meeting come about? Did somebody call it? Or did

everybody just go over there to give condolences?

Williams: Well, like I said, Sherrod -- he talked with us and he

had some of his friends and things. And he just knowed just how

to set it up and get started. And he wanted to know how many of

Williams -

us or was us willing to do it. And we was willing. So that's

how really we got started.

Houston: Okay. And so after the second meeting or so, the

first or second meeting, the meetings then moved to a different

location?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And what was that location?

Williams: Well, from there, we would meet at St. Mathis Church

on 37th and Pleasant Grove Church, both of them Baptist.

Houston: And St. Mathis was a Black church?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And how many people came to these meetings?

Williams: Oh, it would be a good bit of them.

Houston: All Black?

Williams: M-hm.

Williams -

100

Houston: So how many would you say? A hundred?

Williams: It might not would be a hundred but it would be a lot

of them.

Houston: Fifty?

Williams: Well, something like that. Between forty and fifty.

And every Sunday night, or every time we'd meet, you know, it

would become more and more and more.

Houston: Okay. And you decided that you were going to ... what

did you decide at these meetings?

Williams: We just decided to march.

Houston: Okay. And where did you decide to march?

Williams: From where we go from Pleasant Grove downtown.

Houston: Downtown where?

Williams: Downtown Newton.

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101

Houston: But where in downtown? Like to the courthouse?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So the courthouse was the destination?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And then would you just turn around and march back to

Pleasant Grove?

Williams: Back to church and we'd do that about twice a day, in

the morning and then in the evening, until they started locking

us up.

Houston: And how long did that take?

Williams: It didn't take about a week.

Houston: Before they started locking you up?

Williams: M-hm. Well, see, they wanted us to stop and we didn't

stop. They allowed you a chance to go back and don't come back.

Or either if you keep marching, you would be locked up. So

they kept on until they got a bunch of us locked up.

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102

Houston: So, did you march only on Sundays or was this every

day of the week that you were marching?

Williams: During the week.

Houston: Every day during the week?

Williams: Well, yeah. We had it as a daily thing.

Houston: And how many people would you say were in the marches?

Williams: Oh, Lord. I can remember one time it was about eighty

or ninety peoples.

Houston: And what about news coverage? You know, was there

news coverage? Were there reporters there?

Williams: Reporters?

Houston: Yeah.

Man: Cameramen.

Houston: TV people, newspaper people.

Williams -

103

Williams: I don't think so, was it?

Man: It probably was.

Houston: But you don't remember any media people?

Williams: Did they allow them in there? Or they couldn't ho

it?

Man: They couldn't ho it, come in. See, if you were in the

street, they have a right to the streets too.

Houston: I'm sorry. There were other people in the streets

when you were marching?

Man: I meant if the newsmen wanted to come and they was in the

streets, when they come in the streets, you probably could keep

them out of a special meeting or something, but you can't keep

the news media out of the street.

Houston: So when you were marching, did you meet any resistance

or opposition? I know the authorities said that they didn't

want you there. But I mean, were there hecklers? Did people

come and call you names?

Williams -

104

Williams: M-hm. Yeah, they would do all that.

Houston: So were there lots of hecklers?

William: Hm?

Houston: Were there many hecklers? Were there a lot of people

out saying negative things about the marchers?

Williams: Yeah, it would be a lot of them standing saying things

but see, we'd just be marching and singing. So we just didn't

pay them too much attention. But finally they started locking

up all them refused to turn around, you know. They would lock

them up.

Houston: And then what happened? I mean, how long would you

stay in jail?

Williams: They stayed in jail about ... See, they was a week in

jail before I went in. Because I stayed in about maybe a week

and three or four days, me and Josie. But anyway, before we got

in jail, that's when they named ... They thought they was

scaring us out. That's when they named, you know, that Bloody

Saturday. They said, "if any nigger be caught downtown, they

Williams -

105

are going to be killed. That's going to be a bloody Saturday."

They had up a sign saying, "Today is a bloody day." They

thought they would back us out but we went to St. Matthew and we

prayed and we sang and then we went on down there. But they had

peoples with axe handles, ball bats, and walking sticks.

Houston: Now these were not policemen?

Williams: Un-uh [no]. No, the police weren't in it but they

knowed about it.

Houston: Sure.

Williams: Peoples from Leary and all them old mean crackers what

didn't mind doing something nasty. They was there. And this

IGA store, Avery, he's dead now but he furnished the axe handles

and the ball bats and all that kind of stuff. He furnished it

to them and that's when they started hitting and hitting in the

line and that's when Sherrod told everybody turn around, go

back, go back. Said everybody go to the car. But a lot of them

got hit and bloody. They had to carry some to the doctor. That

was that bad time.

Houston: And so this was after many people had been jailed. I

mean you were in jail during this bad time?

Williams -

106

Williams: No, this was just before we went

Houston: to jail?

Williams: M-hm. Wait now. Bloody Saturday. Well, it might

have been ... That was before we went to jail. Or after, one.

Well, how did we went to ... Oh, that Bloody Saturday, that was

before we went to jail. Because after then, that next week,

that's when they locked up then so many.

Houston: So Bloody Saturday was before anyone went to jail?

Williams: I won't say anyone, because some was already ...

Houston: But before you went to jail?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So who went to jail first?

Williams: Oh Lord. I don't know.

Houston: Were the first people to go to jail the people who

were considered to be the leaders? How were the first people

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107

who went to jail chosen? Were they chosen just because they

happened to be marching the first day of arrests?

Williams: The peoples who went to jail were those who wouldn't

turn around and go back.

Houston: So some did turn around?

Williams: I believe my son was in that first lock up too. I

believe he was.

Houston: Henry?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So he was just a little boy.

Williams: He wasn't a little boy.

Houston: Well, he couldn't have been any more than about

fourteen or fifteen. He was born in 1950, right?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And this was around '64, '65, '66, in there somewhere,

Williams -

108

right?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So he was fifteen years old.

Williams: But anyway, he was in that group.

Houston: And how long did that first group stay in jail?

Williams: I think they stayed in about two weeks, or going on

three weeks.

Houston: And what was it like in jail?

Williams: It was rough.

Houston: Well, what do you mean?

Williams: Well, we didn't have nowhere to just lay down and

sleep. We had to sit up. The jail was full of teenagers and

all. So we grown people, they put us in the little calibou,

they called it. So wasn't no bed. It was one mattress in

there. Weren't no bed, just a mattress standing up by the wall.

And we chomped it out. And we just had to sit up, just sit up

Williams -

109

against the wall, and do what little sleeping we did do. But

these mens come to get us out but we wouldn't get out. We

wouldn't go out. But what they did, what the law wanted to do,

to get all the local peoples out and let, like Sherrod and all

of them, you know, stay in so they could dog them around. But

we wouldn't come out. We just stayed right there. These mens

would come like Orange Hawkins, Harrison Hawkins, and Walter

Singletary, Julius Williams, all them would come to bond us out

but we wouldn't go out.

Houston: Now, so the people who came to get you out were Black

people.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: But the purpose of getting you out was to keep the

out-of-towners in jail

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: so that the Whites could harass them.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So, were the Blacks who came to get you out working

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110

for the Whites?

Williams: Un-uh [no]. They were on their own.

Man: The citizens that was in, they was judging from if they had

suffered to the point that they wanted, they would come out.

They wasn't nothing like working for the interests of the

Whites.

Houston: They may not have been working for the Whites, but

what they wanted to do was to get the local people out of jail

and not get the out-of-towners out of jail? In other words, you

mentioned Orange Hawkins and Harrison Hawkins and I guess some

other names. And those were local landowners, is that right?

Williams: M-hm. Local landowners.

Houston: And those local Black landowners wanted to bail out of

jail local Blacks, is that right?

Williams: Well, they would have got all out but see, ... Now

how'd that went? Anyway, after they saw what we wanted -- we

didn't want to leave the out-of-town peoples in there. And we

said when we come out, everybody was going to be able to come

out.

Williams -

111

Houston: Right.

Williams: So that's when CB then stepped in and came down.

Houston: And what did CB do?

Williams: CB was our attorney. Well, he come and the first day-

- I don't know what happened but they wouldn't let us out. But

the next day, he come back and they let us out and we had a

little court or something. But everybody come out; wasn't

nobody left in there. We wasn't going to come out until

everybody come out.

Houston: So on the second day, everybody was released.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: On the second day that CB King came down.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Then what happened? Did you continue to demonstrate?

Williams: No, I think we ... after court and everything, then

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112

they began -- some of the White folks, they began, you know,

agreeing to do this and do that. And agreed to do some of the

things that we wanted did.

Houston: What were your demands?

Williams: Well, jobs and what not and put Blacks in some of

these offices where all the Whites is and everything. And after

they decided to do some of that. Because we didn't have no

Black in the Post Office. We didn't have no Black in the bank.

And no Black in the stores. None of them.

Houston: And what about voter registration? Was that part of

the demand?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: To allow Blacks to register to vote?

Williams: Yeah.

Houston: That was part of the demands of the demonstrators?

Williams: Well, we really had gotten them to register them

before then. But, you know, they first didn't want to register

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113

them but we just ... Well, we called in some peoples from

somewhere. They got that straightened out. So we could

Houston: So, in other words, Blacks were able to go downtown to

the courthouse and register to vote?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: This was part of the negotiations.

Williams: Yeah, that was all in it because they used to wood if

you couldn't read, then they wouldn't register you. If you

couldn't read or write. And they would have you reading

paragraphs.

Houston: Right. Were there any other demands? Were there any

demands about a trial for the people accused of murdering Hosey

Miller?

Williams: Were there other demands?

Houston: Yeah, when you were marching. You started marching

because Hosey Miller had been murdered.

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114

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So was the purpose of the march to demand the trial

and conviction of Miller's killers? Was that part of the

demand? Or did it just become a general civil rights protest?

Williams: Well, maybe. Anyway, all that was combined in it.

Houston: Okay. Was there ever a trial?

Williams: About the killer?

Houston: Uh-huh [yes].

Williams: They had a trial or something but the way that wound

up, I really didn't know how it wound up. Because they locked

them up in Camilla and we really didn't know where they was

locked up. Some said they just was over there, staying with

some of their people or something. We really didn't know

whether they was in jail or what.

Houston: Okay. So in other words, after CB King came down the

second day and got everybody out of jail, a series of

negotiations began with some of the local White leaders in order

to integrate the Post Office, the bank, some of the office

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buildings, some of the stores and to get Blacks registered to

vote down at the courthouse. Is that right?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And who actually did the negotiations for the Black

community? Who was it who met with Whites in order to work out

these arrangements? Who were the Blacks who actually

represented the local Black community?

Williams: Some of the landowners like some of the names you got

there, Julius Williams and Carl Broadway and T. Kunny, they

would meet with them. They'd get some information, you know,

from Charles Sherrod, and they would meet with them.

Houston: Okay. Well, it sounds as though things didn't change

very much at all until this murder and then all of a sudden,

they changed very rapidly. I mean, listening to what you said,

it sounds like things pretty much were pretty quiet and then

this murder happened and suddenly people were very outraged

about it. And were willing to stand up and to do something

about it even though it was dangerous.

Williams: Yeah, we were. That's when the action really, really

took on. Some peoples, you know, you couldn't get to do

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anything. But some after this happened, they was willing and

ready. And then some, we never could get.

Houston: Now who were the ones who were unwilling to do

anything?

Williams: Well, most of those who live on the White peoples'

place, you couldn't get them to do anything because the Boss Man

had told them if they participate, they would have to hunt them

somewhere to go. So really, they had them kind of scared to

participate.

Houston: And did their refusal to participate anger those who

were participating? Did the Blacks who were willing to march

feel angry with the Blacks who were unwilling to march?

Williams: Well, we thought a little hard of them but then we

could understand too. But, you know, if they didn't have no

where else to stay, we, you know, kind of understood. But see,

I'd have been crazy enough to just try it out and see. They

could have found somewhere to stay, I believe, but they just,

you know ...

Houston: They were just afraid to lose their livelihood.

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117

Williams: And some of them were scared to register if they was

on the White man's place. We had a problem with that too.

Houston: Were there many outsiders involved in this?

Williams: Pretty good. Pretty good.

Houston: And who were they, for the most part? I mean, when

you say "pretty good", how many outsiders would you say came in?

Williams: Well, I really don't just really know the number of

outsiders but it was Black and White. You know, Sherrod, he

knowed them and all. He had worked with them.

Houston: So were they mostly SNCC people?

Williams: That's what they were. Well, that's what they called

them -- SNCC. [laughs]

Houston: Were there any SCLC people?

Williams: Any what now?

Houston: Southern Christian Leadership Conference people,

people from Atlanta?

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118

Williams: I think so. Some of them. Mixed up, you know.

Sherrod knowed about them.

Houston: Okay. And so, after that, that was really the

beginning of the movement here. This was in the middle to late

sixties, I guess.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Well, I suppose the only other thing I want to ask is

whether earlier, you know, back in the fifties, you know, when

you were working on Julius Miller's farm, you know, do you

recall when the Supreme Court decided that it was illegal to

discriminate on the basis of race in education? Do you recall

the crisis in Little Rock about school desegregation? Do you

recall those things at all back in the fifties?

Williams: Some of them because two of my children, two of

Grace's children. Anyway, it should have been about maybe ten

or twelve, you know, we put them in the White school and they

didn't want to go, you know. We put them in there. They caught

it tough and rough but we made them stay on in there. They'd

come back and tell you how they treated them. But we'd go up

there during the day. From there, they've been all going.

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119

After they had it tough that school term, then the next school

term, some more went so finally we just got it agoing.

Houston: And when was that?

Williams: That was along in that time.

Man: In the fifties.

Williams: M-hm. Something like that. Let me see now. The

Movement started in '65 and '66. So that was along in that

time, they integrated.

Houston: '65, '66?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: Integrated the schools.

Man: That's right. In the sixties.

Houston: Let's see if there's anything else I want to ask you.

When you were living on the Miller's farm, I mean, was it

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generally considered to be better to share crop for a Black

farmer than for a White farmer? Or did it matter? If you were

farming for shares, did it matter whether you were on a Black

farm? Whether the landowner was Black or the landowner was

White? Were you less likely to be cheated if the landowner was

Black? Or could it happen no matter who the landowner was?

Williams: Well, it could happen, you know, no matter who the

landowner was. But no doubt, you wouldn't know, you know. But

after I got grown, I ain't never worked with nothing but Blacks.

I didn't farm with no Whites.

Houston: And when you were working for Blacks, did you ever

have any problems settling up? I mean, did you ever feel, you

know, that they were taking more than they should?

Williams: Well, not really. Or maybe I didn't know, you know.

Because if they said, "This caused this and that" all I had to

... you know, just accept it. But I had more confidence in, you

know, what they were ... But although I believe Black took as

well as White but then I just really didn't know that.

Houston: Okay. And the reason you didn't know is because they

never showed you the books. They just kept all the records and

they never showed you ...

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121

Williams: Well, they would go, you know, down the line with some

things, which if they had it wrote down so all you could do is

agree. You know, agree with it.

Man: But I did notice when you started with the Millers, you

came from the Millers to this place. How did that happen?

Williams: How did it happen?

Man: M-hm. From the sharecropping to this house. How did you

get this house?

Williams: Well, through by my children.

Man: Then no sharecropping money went in this house?

Williams: Un-uh [no]. Because see, when they was getting this

up, you know, I really didn't let them know anything after the

house was built and everything, you know. Some of them said

that if they'd have known it, they would have gave me some land

over there on the Miller's. But see, well I didn't know it and

I didn't believe they would do it. So I was doing this, you

know. They didn't know. So my daughter, she wrote to all my

children, what all, and she had them to send. They got up about

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$750.00 and we bought this land from Hall, Burgie Hall -- Walter

Hall up there. We bought this acre of land from them. And then

when they knowed anything, the house was, you know, coming up.

So through by my children, this is how I'm here. And through

FHA, you know. But like I said, when they told me that, they

still could have did it if they wanted to help me. But they

didn't. So.

Houston: So, in a sense, working for Blacks was marginally

better because you had greater confidence that they wouldn't

take advantage of you to the same extent perhaps that Whites

might take advantage of you. But you still felt that it was

possible, since they were landowners, that they could take

advantage.

Williams: Yeah. They could have. But I felt more, you know,

confident with the Blacks because the Blacks weren't going to

tell me. Well, if they could, it wouldn't . They wasn't

going to tell me I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that, or

participate in this and that. Because I would have did it.

Houston: Right. Now, when you were working for the Blacks on

the land, did you have to keep your kids out of school to work

on the farm? Or were your kids able to go to school?

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Williams: Well ... [End of Tape 2, Side A]

[Begin Tape 2, Side B]

Houston: ... to work on the farm.

Williams: M-hm. But I never did plan to do my children ...

Houston: No, you didn't do your children like that.

Williams: Now my children, what I would have them to do when

they got in from school, get out of their clothes and eat and go

on to the fields, you know.

Houston: Okay. You know, I can't think of anything else really

to ask you. I think we've covered this pretty well. Is there

anything that you'd like to add, I mean, considering what we've

been talking about? You know, about life under segregation? I

suppose one thing that I should ask that I haven't asked is, you

know, before 1960, or I guess actually before 1965, you know,

what were the most visible signs of Jim Crow? What were the

most visible signs of segregation for you in your community? I

mean, how were you made most aware of the status of Black people

in Baker County? I mean, when you went into town, what were

some of the ways in which you knew there were two societies -- a

Black society and a White society? It's not a trick question.

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124

I mean, I assume there were signs for White Only in places or

for Blacks. Were there things like that?

Williams: Oh yeah. That was at the courthouse. You know, like

the water things. But all they would have White Only. And if

we drank water out of there, you know, they would try to stop

us. We'd have to drink from ... it was a thing out and had a

spigot and the water would run kind of all the time.

Man: Water fountain.

Williams: M-hm. But it wasn't like -- it was just out in front

of the courthouse, a big old brick and we had to drink

water from there. But their fountain was right in the

courthouse and they could drink cool water, you know.

Man: It was just ordinary water, steady running.

Williams: M-hm. M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So it wasn't cooled.

Williams: No!

Houston: What other kinds of symbols of segregation were there,

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other than the water foundation?

Williams: You know, we couldn't use the restrooms in the

courthouse.

Houston: So if you had to use the restroom, where could you go?

Williams: You'd go down there on the river or somewhere if you

just had to use it while you was in town.

Houston: So there were no restrooms in town for Blacks?

Williams: Not along in that time, you know, but there is now.

Houston: No, I know. But I mean back in the forties and

fifties, there were no restrooms in town. What about Black

businesses? Were there any Black businesses in town?

Williams: Un-uh [no]. The only Black business we had is right

up here and to the Halls. WM was running his store then and

we'd do a lot of shopping from him.

Houston: So the only Black business was Halls?

Williams: M-hm.

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126

Houston: And what was the business?

Williams: Well, he had a grocery store and, you know, lax gas.

Houston: Halls Grocery Store and Gasoline?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And it was -- you said -- lax gas?

Williams: Hm?

Houston: I'm sorry.

Williams: Gas station.

Houston: And Hall owned that too?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And what was Hall's first name?

Williams: W.M. Hall, Jr. Well, that's Walter Hall.

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127

Houston: Okay. And that was really the only Black business?

No other Black businesses?

Williams: No. Well, not in Newton.

Houston: Was there a movie theatre here?

Williams: Hm?

Houston: Was there a movie theatre in Newton?

Williams: Un-uh [no].

Houston: So Blacks couldn't go to the movies?

Williams: Well, I guess in Ogden or Camilla they could. I

really don't know where. Were there any movies along in there?

I don't know.

Man: There was movies in Albany. In those days, we had movies

and we could go because we could go upstairs.

Williams: In Albany?

Man: In Albany.

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Williams: Wasn't nothing like that down here.

Houston: Okay. Well, you know, unless there's something else

you'd like to add to this period, I can't think of anything else

to ask you. I do have the biography form which I'll have to run

out to the car and get because I'd like to get your help to fill

that out.

Williams: Okay.

Houston: Okay?

Williams: But I can say and I must say that we have really come

from a long ways. Really, really have. Through God and by

God's help. We made it.

Houston: So you've seen a lot of change.

Williams: Everything ain't just right but it's much better.

Houston: What do you think is the most pressing problem today

that we face? When you say everything's not just right, what do

you consider to be the biggest problem that needs to be

remedied?

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129

Williams: Well, some people you still can't get them to register

to vote. And some peoples, if they register, they won't vote.

You know, it's still little problems. And mostly among our

peoples. But what can you do about it?

Houston: Right.

Williams: If we all was on one accord, we could get things did.

And I mean and it wouldn't be no problem. But you just can't

get some people to see it yet. And I guess it'll always be like

that.

Houston: Well, you know, I mean the civil rights movements made

its gains without everybody pulling. I mean, there were some

people who were afraid to participate.

Williams: I imagine so.

Houston: And then there were other people who were more

courageous and were willing to take chances and take risks.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So do you think things are getting better or do you

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think they seem to be getting worse?

Williams: Well, I tell you, sometimes it makes you think that

we're going on our way back where were.

Houston: What makes you think that?

Williams: Because sometimes you just can't get peoples to, you

know, do nothing. It discourages you sometime but then again,

you look on the other hand, well, you have to go on and use what

you have. Peoples is something else. I guess that's just ...

Man: When you say "peoples" what do you mean?

Williams: You know, like you can't get peoples to, you know ...

Man: Do you mean Blacks?

Williams: Yeah. See, I just be feeling like by now we all ought

to almost be together. Maybe we all will never be but most

peoples now, they done seen what happened. And seen what's

happening now. And they ought to be more interested now than

they were back then.

Houston: Do you feel there's less industry now that there was

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back then?

Williams: I almost believe it is.

Houston: And why do you think that's true? I mean, do you have

any sense of why that might be?

Williams: Because some, you know, ... maybe I can't explain

myself.

Houston: That's okay. You're doing real well.

Man: Sister Williams, do you think this is the Black man's

fault? Do you think we as Black people, that's our fault why

we're not advancing or getting together? Or do you just think

the young generation don't care?

Houston: Could we just get you to identify your voice, because

this is going to be transcribed and people listening to it won't

know who you are. So maybe you could just tell them.

Man: I thought you had cut that. You still have got that on?

Houston: No, no. It's still running.

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132

Man: I'm Charles Hawk. Sister Williams and Brother Houston,

I've just been listening on this. I'm presently Director of the

Metropolitan General Information Service in Albany and also

Executive Member of the NAACP there. Chairperson of the

Education and Human Rights Committee. Central we could

work together and closer together. I believe that but I wanted

to hear what you had to say about your reason to think we're

not. I've got some ideas but I think it's still the White man's

fault but . I think that we haven't put a lot

of the educational process on this to get people to vote, tell

them how important it is to have their own elected officials.

See, if we ever got that, then we would almost be forced --

maybe that's the wrong term but if we ever got enough elected

Black officials, then we'd be forced into things that make

people do better. And that is the White power structure.

Economics and everything else would somehow come into being. It

may take a long time, when they talk about business and all of

this. But it wasn't nothing ...

Houston: I'm just going to go get the biography form. I'll be

right back.

Williams: So you think it's us?

Man: It's us for the most part when you talk about voting.

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Williams: M-hm.

Man: Don't care. Don't think it's going to make a difference.

See, a lot of Blacks think it's going to make a difference.

They'll tell you, "What has it done for you?" You did all this

in the sixties, but where you are now you still don't have this,

you don't have that, you know, better off. We get it all the

time with this negativeness that takes place from the young

Blacks. I don't know where you ... In the schools, they say

it. You get them in different discussions, they'll say, "well,

why should I vote? It ain't going to make no difference no way.

Because it hasn't gotten you anything." That's the young

generation that says that you went all through this thirty years

ago but what has it gotten you? Well, I don't care nothing

about all of that. It's not going to make any difference. We

just have to keep striving forward, to teach these people that

it will make a difference to have them go to the polls and vote

for who they think may be the better person. And by this, in

numbers, they will be able to get someone in office that would

represent them, whether it's Black or White, but it'd be

somebody of their choice. Do you agree with that?

Williams: Well, I guess maybe you're right. But you can talk

and you can talk to them and then talk. But it seems to me that

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they just don't care nothing for registering no more. And like

what it is, they're going to do what they're want to do anyway.

So, you know. But you can tell them, well, "Your vote might

make the different" but they don't believe that. So I don't

know what it's going to take. Just say a prayer, I guess.

Prayer talk.

Houston: Mrs. Williams, I've got a form here. It'll take us a

little while to fill it out. It's kind of a family biography

form and I need to ask you some questions about yourself and

your family. Your last name is Williams with an "s", right?

Williams: Yes.

Houston: And that's Leola Davis. Birthdate: 12-10-1919. And

what's your address, please?

Williams: Route 2, Box

Houston: Okay. Route 2. There's not a street address, not a

number?

Williams: Un-uh [no].

Houston: Route 2.

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135

Williams: Box 1250, Newton.

Houston: And the zipcode?

Williams: 31770.

Houston: Okay. And your principle occupation has been farming?

Housewife, farming, homemaker.

Williams: Well, now, what about ... Would I say farming if I'd

done some more work since farming?

Houston: Well, actually, I'm mainly interested in what you were

doing during this period, not so much since.

Williams: Oh, well, farming then.

Houston: Okay. And homemaking because actually, your sons were

... The lease, the contract was in your name but your sons were

doing a lot of the farming. I mean you were also homemaking,

right?

Williams: M-hm.

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136

Houston: And I'm sure I've got your telephone number. Let me

just ask you again.

Williams: 734-

Houston: That's 912, right?

Williams: Yeah. 912/734-5191.

Houston: And your maiden name is Davis?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. And do you use your maiden name or do you go

just by Leola Williams?

Williams: Some of my mail be Leola Davis Williams and some of it

just Leola Williams.

Houston: Which one do you prefer?

Williams: Leola D. Williams.

Houston: Okay. And you were born in Baker County.

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137

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: But not in the City of Newton. Would you say Ichaway,

Baker County?

Williams: Just really Baker County, in the country.

Houston: Okay. And you are divorced or widowed? Divorced.

Williams: Widowed. Wait now. I ain't divorced. That's

widowed, right?

Houston: Yeah, widowed is your spouse is dead.

Williams: Un-uh. [no] He ain't dead.

Houston: Oh, so you're divorced.

Williams: Well, I ain't got no divorce.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: What would you call it? [laughs]

Houston: Well, I don't know. I guess I'd say you were divorced

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138

or yeah, separated. But there's no category here for separated.

And you're not married. I'm going to say "divorced" because

there's no category for separated. It's a permanent separation.

I mean, you've been separated for forty years.

Williams: Ooh, a long time.

Houston: Yeah. So I'll say divorced. I'll write in "separated

forty years." How's that?

Williams: That's fine.

Houston: And what's your spouse's first name? First, middle

and last name? Your former husband?

Williams: Robert Lee Williams.

Houston: Okay. And when was he born? If you don't know the

month and day, the year or the approximate year.

Williams: He's two years older than me.

Houston: So he was born in 1917. And he's still living?

Williams: M-hm.

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139

Houston: And was he also born in Baker County?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And his occupation was farmer.

Williams: Yeah. Mostly.

Houston: And your mother's first, middle and last name?

Williams: Lizzie Taylor Davis.

Houston: And her maiden name was Taylor?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And when was she born?

Williams: I might would have to get the Bible there out.

Houston: Do you know how old she was when you were born?

Williams: No, but I knew she was 88 when she passed.

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140

Houston: And when did she pass? Do you know what year she

died?

Williams: I know the month was in March. I don't know what

year.

Man: Think about things that happened during the time that she

died. You're talking about her mother.

Houston: Right.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: She was born in Baker County though, right?

Williams: Uh-huh [yes]. I thought it was in this Bible.

Houston: Well, you know, if you can't find it, what we can do

is we can move on. And it may come back to you later or if you

don't remember it, we can leave it blank. And maybe you'll come

across it and I can call you or I can get it from you later.

Man: Did your mother die before the fifties?

Williams: Un-uh [no].

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141

Man: Was it before you built this house?

Williams: Since I was here.

Man: Since you built this house.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And you came here in '72.

Man: That'll give you some idea. Maybe it was in the mid-

seventies.

Williams: I'm not sure.

Houston: Well, now, you were the fifth child. You were born in

1919. So assuming your mother was at least 25 when you were

born, that means your mother would have been born in about 1894

and ....

Man: Well, it could have been '97. I was thinking about it

awhile ago. Since she was born in 1919 and her marriage was

taken place ...

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142

Williams: I think this is it. She was born March 28, 1896.

Houston: So you found it in here. So she was born March 28,

1896.

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And if she was 88 when she died, she died in '84.

Right? If she was born in '96 and lived to be 88, she died in

'84. What was your father's full name, first, middle and last?

Williams: Will Davis.

Houston: Will Davis?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: He didn't have a middle name?

Williams: Un-uh [no].

Houston: And what about his date of birth? Do you have it

there?

Williams: I can hardly make it out. Maybe that's 1891, the 25th

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143

of July.

Houston: Yeah. 1891, 25 July. So July is the seventh month.

Seven, twenty-five, 1891. And how old was he when he died?

Williams: I believe he was 94.

Houston: 94. So that means he died in '85. He died the year

after your mother. He outlived your mother by one year.

Williams: Something like that. I know that it's close.

Houston: So I'll put 1895. And father's place of birth? Baker

County?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. You're going to need that Bible yet because I'm

going to ask you all about your brothers and sisters. And

father's occupation was a farmer.

Williams: You have to have all that?

Houston: Well, I'm afraid so. Is it handy? Let's start with

their names. I know there are a lot of them. They're fourteen

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144

of you, right? I don't think I have fourteen lines. I'll have

to write real small.

Williams: But you know what? I'm number four.

Houston: Oh, is that right? Well, that's okay. So you're one

of the big kids. Yeah, fourteen children. So I'll have to

write really small. I've got nine lines here.

Williams: It was thirteen.

Houston: Thirteen children. Okay.

Williams: I guess what made me say fourteen, I always remember

her saying the first one died. She was the mother of fourteen.

Houston: Okay. So can we start with I guess maybe only the

names of the living children. However you want to do that. But

what I'm going to need all together are their names, their birth

and death dates and their place of birth. I mean, I guess they

were all born in Baker County so that part'll be easy.

Williams: I might not know the dates there. I don't believe

that's ...

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145

Man: Sister, I was interested in what you just said about the

first one died. In childbirth? Did it live a month?

Williams: I believe I heared her say she losed it ... you know

like you used to replant corn? And I think she losed it that

way.

Houston: Oh you mean, she was working and then she lost the

child?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. I can just copy the names out of there if

they're there.

Williams: What you want, the children?

Houston: Yeah, in the order of birth. So where do they start?

Williams: You mean my sisters?

Houston: Yeah, your sisters and brothers.

Williams: Did you say you want all or those who are living?

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146

Houston: Well, I'll take all of them if you have them all.

Williams: Well, you can start right there. Lesley Lee Hudson,

or Davis.

Houston: Lesley Lee Hudson Davis?

Williams: Davis Hudson.

Houston: She was born January 26, 1914. And then Robert Lee

Davis and he was born 3-17-1915. And then Eligh [pronounced

Elijah] Davis, born 2-1-17. And then you.

Williams: M-hm. So that made the fourth one of me.

Houston: Right. And that's 12-10-1919. And then Henry Lee

Davis, born 3-16-1922. And is that J.C. Davis?

Williams: J.B.

Houston: J.B. Davis. He was born 8-25-24. And then Lottie Mae

Davis, born 4-13-25. Your mom was busy, having those babies

real close together. And then Mae Ollie Davis.

Williams: Who do you have?

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147

Houston: I've got Lottie Mae. And then Mae Ollie. Mae Ollie

Davis, born April 11, 1926. And then Will Davis, Jr., 7-12-33.

And then Oline Davis, born 9-28-36. And then Virginia Davis,

born

Williams: I let you made a mistake because Virginia is mine.

But her name just was wrote in there.

Houston: Oh, so she's your child?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay. So I'll just cross her out and put her down

because that's the next question. Is she the first of your

children?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And how many of those will there be? These are all

yours? Lizzie?

Williams: Un-uh. [no] These are the balance of my mother's.

Just leave Virginia out and Lizzie will come after Oline.

Williams -

148

Houston: Okay. Lizzie O. Davis and she was born 12-29-39. So

there's a big gap. There's a three year gap. And then L.D.

Davis, born 4-5-40.

Williams: See, that's it.

Houston: Okay, now we're going to need your kids too. Now are

they all here? Now, Virginia is your child, right?

Williams: M-hm.

Man: Can I ask a question? Did he make one mistake or two

mistakes? The one that was born in 1933, who was that?

Houston: Will Davis, Jr. was born in 1933.

Man: Okay.

Houston: This is twelve. Virginia would have been thirteen but

Williams: Yeah, but she's mine.

Houston: Okay. So there were twelve kids.

Williams: Well, thirteen with the one.

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149

Houston: Well, but I've got twelve names without Virginia's.

Williams: And what else did you ....

Houston: Well, you know, if you have them, I'd like their death

dates if any of your brothers and sisters have died. But if you

don't know that, I can move on to the place of birth, where they

were born. Were they all born here in Baker County?

Williams: All born in Baker County. But I don't have the death

dates. Not many dead.

Houston: That's okay. So maybe we could move on to your

children. How many children did you have altogether?

Williams: Ten. You've got Virginia.

Houston: No, I didn't write her down yet. Was she the first

born?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So, Virginia. Now what's Virginia's last name? Is it

Virginia Davis?

Williams -

150

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: So her last name's Davis. And what's her birthdate?

Williams: Was it in there?

Houston: Yeah. It was January 5, '37. Were these children all

born in Baker County too?

Williams: M-hm. We ain't never left Baker County but they did

after they got grown.

Houston: Makes my job easy. So James then?

Williams: James Robert Williams, or James R.

Houston: And he was born April 18, 1939. And Lessie Mae,

Lessie Willie?

Williams: Lessie Williams.

Houston: Oh, Williams, okay. Born 16 May, 1940. And J.C.

Williams.

Williams -

151

Williams: I never could have thought of all this.

Houston: Born 6-11-1942. And Shirley Williams, born July 14,

1944. And Benjamin Williams, born 5-12-46. Roosevelt Williams,

born 11-18-48. I know we're getting close to Henry. Eugene H.

Williams, born 25 July 1950. And Herman. So your son's name is

Herman. I thought it was Henry.

Williams: That's another one.

Houston: Oh.

Williams: Herman and a Henry.

Houston: Herman Williams, born 2-2-52. And Eddie B. Williams,

born 3-19-54. Where's Henry?

Williams: Henry? You've got him there. Eugene.

Houston: Oh, Eugene H.

Williams: He's really named Henry Eugene.

Houston: But it's Eugene H. there.

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152

Williams: Yeah, that's the way they got it.

Houston: Okay. And all your children are living?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: And I know you have at least one grandchild because I

met her. How many grandchildren do you have altogether?

Williams: Really it ought to be, might be reaching the fifties.

I have been saying I was going to sit down and count them all

one day. But it's on up there. I know it's in the forties.

Houston: Should I put down forty to fifty? Between forty to

fifty?

Williams: M-hm.

Houston: Okay.

Williams: And maybe about nine greatgrand.

Houston: Well, we don't have to list greatgrands.

Williams: Good.

Williams -

153

Houston: Spare you that part. Now, this next one should be

really easy. Because it says I have to list all the places

you've ever lived and when you lived there. So I'll just put

down Baker County.

Williams: Baker County.

Houston: And that'll be 1919 to present. From the time you

were born to now.

Williams: I'm still here.

Houston: Now, you attended the Green Grove School?

Williams: Yes.

Houston: And that's in Newton? Baker County.

Williams: Well, yeah. Newton.

Houston: And you went there from grade 1 to grade 7, right?

Williams: I went to sixth grade.

Williams -

154

Houston: Okay, so grade 1 to grade 6. You were born in 1919.

You probably started there about what? Age 7, age 6?

Williams: School? Probably 5.

Houston: So you would have started there in 1924. And you went

there until what? Age 15, 16?

Williams: 16, something like that.

Houston: And you would have been 16 in 1935. And you went

through grade 6, you said?

Williams: I was promoted to 6. I didn't go through grade 6.

But I say, thank God. I went back in my what -- forties or

something -- and got my GED.

Houston: Oh, did you?

Williams: M-hm. I have my diploma over yonder.

Houston: Okay. And what year did you earn that?

Williams -

155

Williams: I believe that -- is that '87? Do you see it there?

Couldn't have been '87. Was it? Do you see the GED diploma?

[End of Tape 2, Side B] [End of Interview.]

Transcribed by Victoria Haas

of TapeScripts+ Maywood, Illinois