emotionally focused paper

Susan Johnson Okay. Hi. Ummm. I'm Sue Johnson, and this is a clinical demonstration of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. Okay, and we have a wonderful brave couple, who um, who are um, Patty and Josh who are working with a local EFT therapist, ah, Keith Edwards, who has brought them in this morning and they agreed to come even at 8 o'clock on a Saturday, to come and work with someone they never met before. Um. So they have read, Hold Me Tight and they've also worked with Keith um, previously before they got married, they've been married a year and so, they have worked in EFT before. So, they have a little bit, they know a little bit about what to expect. Usually, when I do live sessions, I do an hour-and-a-quarter, so this is going to be a little short. But hopefully, what you're going to see is some of the basic elements of EFT as we kind of work through them. What I’m -- in EFT, what we do, the therapist reflects process a lot, the therapist um, looks out and tracks interactions between the couple, finds patterns in the relationship. The therapist works with the emotional signals the couple send each other and maybe helps to uh, expand those emotional signals, which sometimes get sort of constricted and distorted when we get scared and get into negative patterns. And then the therapist helps to shape uh, particular kinds of interactions. So, hopefully, you're going to see me doing all those things. Um. What we're going to do up on the stage is basically, forget that you're here, okay. And we're just going to do a session. So, ummm, these guys have been married for a year and they've just decided to come back and do some more work on their relationship, right? Okay. And so, um, Patty has been married before and she has three children living in the house. So, we were just talking with you about how, it must be a little strange to come into that and kind of be the dad but not be the dad, right? Okay. And you guys met at your church, and you're still very involved in the church.

03:30 Josh Right.

Susan Johnson Yes, okay. And um, Patty you said, it was okay to share that you had some very difficult times earlier in your life. You had a very unhappy marriage, right? And you had some trauma in your background. You had a -- when you were young, you were raped and that was very difficult for you, okay. And some of those echoes still seem to stay with you, yeah, it's hard to recover from those things, right?

03:55 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson And all right, and Josh you haven't been married before and you're -- and you were -- you met your wife through um, her um-- your mom?

04:05 Josh My mom.

Susan Johnson Your mom? Okay, which is sort of an interesting introduction, okay.

04:10 Josh Yeah. It is.

Susan Johnson Yeah. Okay. So, we're just going to start and do session, okay. And then we're just gonna umm, let these folks just sort of tune into us, yeah? All right. All right, and I am, as I said to you, um, sometimes when you say something really important I just write it down, okay. And that's my way of really staying on track with you. So, when I write things down, that's what I'm going-I'm gonna be doing. The other thing is, when I talk to you, I already said this outside, but I'm going to say it again. I'm parachuting into your relationship here, okay. And I really --um, very honored that you would trust me enough to do that. And um, basically, if I say something that isn't quite right, that is off, that doesn't quite fit for you, I want you to correct me, okay. I want you to just say, no Sue, it's not quite like that, it's more like this, right, that sort of helps me, alright? Okay. So --

05:15 Josh Here we go.

Susan Johnson Here we go, yeah. Um. So, maybe you could help me a little bit. We've talked a little tiny bit, when we met in the foyer, okay. And I've talked to Keith, your therapist a little bit, but, maybe you can help me by just um, telling me in your own words, where you see your relationship now or how you would really like your relationship to change? I'd like to hear from both of you. Um, Patty, would you like to start with that?

05:45 Patty Sure, I'll start.

05:50 Susan Johnson Okay.

Patty Umm. When we started dating, I was still working through the process, of the pain of the divorce. And um, it felt like the healing was well on its way and happening. My- To my surprise, after we got married it all opened up again.

06:10 Susan Johnson Of course, yes.

06:15 Patty So, what I thought, I was done with, I found out I'm not. So, and that's why we went back to Keith again was because, I realized, I'm not done dealing with the pain and as Keith and I talked, what we discovered was that it wasn't just the pain of the divorce, there was a snowball effect from years. And so, um, I-I want this to work, I want it to be good, but my pain keeps me from connecting like I want to.

06:50 Susan Johnson Hmmm.

Patty So...

06:55 Susan Johnson And you've already been able to really understand that-that it's you feel very vulnerable, right?

07:00 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson And in a way that would -- that's natural, isn't it? That you come into a new relationship and it feels wonderful --

07:05 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson -- and then suddenly you realize, oh my goodness--

07:10 Patty I've done it again.

Susan Johnson I've done it again. Oh my goodness, I'm vulnerable, oh my goodness, I could be so hurt here.

07:15 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson I'm opening up, I'm trusting this man, I'm putting myself in his hands. So, it's incredibly natural that suddenly, there is some part of you says, wait a minute, wait a minute and it reminds you of all the hurt that you've had.

07:30 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson And somehow you feel very vulnerable, yeah?

07:35 Patty An-and my response to that is to go into hiding.

07:40 Susan Johnson Oh 'cause I was going to say to you, what do you do with that, yes --

Patty I go into hiding-

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)You go into hiding-

Patty , which is very hard for him, because he's wanting to connect and it's too frightening for me to connect, because of what you said it -- it leaves me so vulnerable. And --

08:00 Susan Johnson Can you --

Patty -- obviously, I know that's not a way to have a good marriage either. I'm going to have to connect, if I want a good marriage. So --

08:05 Susan Johnson Yeah, but it's scary, and you're --

Patty (crosstalk)Yes.

Susan Johnson -- already able to say to me very clearly, you are already able to go in and sort of grasp that experience and say to me, it's frightening, yeah --

08:15 Patty (crosstalk)Yes.

Susan Johnson -- it's frightening here. And when you get scared and frightened, you -- what does it look like, when you go into hiding? Can you help me what does that look like?

08:25 Patty Um. It looks like a very thick wall, that can't be penetrated. And I didn't realize how thick the wall was until a friend of mine said that she had noticed, since I'd got married, that there had been a wall and I thought well, this is leaking into other areas of my life, it's not just my marriage. I'm putting up walls, so that my friends can't get in either.

08:50 Susan Johnson Which is incredibly natural thing for you to do, yeah?

08:55 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson Suddenly you feel at risk, you're scared and so, you know, what you've learnt to do in your life is one way of dealing with that, maybe the very best way of dealing with that that might have saved your life --

09:05 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson -- in another context, right?

Patty Right.

Susan Johnson Perhaps the only thing you could have done huh--

09:10 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson -- and it did save your life, perhaps in the past, is to shut down, yeah. But when you shut down, you shut Josh out and you don't want to do that, yeah?

09:20 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson Yeah, I hear you. What does it look like when you shut down? I mean, do you just not talk or do you leave the room or do you turn away or?

09:30 Patty All of the above.

Susan Johnson Okay.

09:35 Patty Um. A lot of times I just -- I have to go into another room. I have gone into the bathroom and locked the door just so I could be alone and um and uh...tried to work up some bravery to come back out, I guess. Um. I definitely stopped talking. I wouldn't call it the silent treatment because I'm punishing him. It's just -- it's just a turning inward. Um..

10:10 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)It's just you--

Patty It's almost like, I guess, the best verbal picture I can make of it is, um, a large building imploding on itself.

10:20 Susan Johnson You just turn in, this is too difficult, this is too hard, yeah?

10:25 Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson Some part of you says, this is too scary, I'm too vulnerable here, I have to go and hide away and lock the door.

10:35 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson And are there -- is this just something that's happening all the time now or is this something that start at a particular moment or happened at particular times in your relationship? I mean, does this happen mostly when you guys start to get into an argument or does it happen when suddenly you find yourself wanting um, Josh's comfort? What -- when -- do you know when it happens or is it just all over the place?

11:00 Patty Um. Probably, mostly it happens when we get into an argument or a disagreement and um, it happens for me um, physically as well, um, intimacy is very hard for me. And I find that that's a place of huge vulnerability for me.

11:20 Susan Johnson So when you -- so you help me, it-this particularly comes out for you, it's kind of always waiting in the background.

11:30 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson But it particularly comes out for you if there's some sort of disagreement.

Patty Yes.

11:35 Susan Johnson But also it comes out for you, if suddenly there's a chance to be close --

11:40 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson -- to Josh. And some part of you really wants that but what also comes up is that your fear comes up as well.

11:45 Patty Yes. That's was one of the things that we've talked about is that when he walks up behind me and hugs me, it's very frightening to me, to-to-to be -- to be held like that, it causes an internal reaction of wanting to run.

12:05 Susan Johnson Mhmm. I hear you. Right. How are you feeling as you're talking about this with me, this is hard to talk about, yeah?

12:15 Patty It's very emotional for me, yeah. But I'm okay.

12:20 Susan Johnson It takes a lot of courage to sit and talk to-to me about this, yeah.

12:25 Patty I don't know, not as much as you think, maybe. I've had lots of --um, I have a lot of trust in Dr. Edwards, so, it has...

12:40 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)It sort of --

Patty He's helped me feel safe.

Susan Johnson That's wonderful.

Patty (crosstalk)So-

Susan Johnson Okay.

12:45 Patty So, it's-it's not as hard as it maybe would have been years ago.

Susan Johnson Ah-huh. You've learned that it's okay to go into this --

12:50 Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson -- and talk about it and that helps.

Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson What's it like for you to hear your lady talking about this, Josh?

12:55 Josh I feel, I-I wanna help. That's exactly what I wanted to do. Um, just to somehow help her with this-this situations, these burdens that she feels, how she -- I kind of want to come alongside her, and, you know, give her a place to lean on, a um, place to just kind of feel safe.

13:25 Susan Johnson You don't want her to face that fear alone. You want her to come in and-and you want to be able to be there for her, right?

13:35 Josh Uh-huh.

Susan Johnson You want to take care of her in that?

Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson Yeah. But it must also be very difficult for you when you reach for her and you want to care for her and take care of her to feel her pushing away, that must be very difficult for you.

13:50 Josh Yeah. It is, it's-it's -- it really hits me down um, very deep, um, 'cause one of the big things that I want her to feel when she is around me is, is safe and that I'm here for her that I'm here for the integrity of the relationship. Um. As a sensitivity, to things that happened when she was previously married, so that's the reason why I feel a lot of times why I'm here for her, is for that and when she pushes away, it's -- what have I done, how I'm not doing this right, and it kind of turns into a cycle of -- not so much self imploding but --um

14:35 Susan Johnson Somehow -- I want to slow you down a bit, okay? Okay.

14:40 Josh You can do that.

14:45 Susan Johnson Okay, so. So, you guys are starting to get close or something happens where you go up and you give -- you come and give her a hug, right, and something is triggered in you or you could maybe have an argument or something's triggered in you and you can feel, right, that Patty withdraws from you and shuts you out, and she might physically go do that, she might go and do that and actually lock herself in another room, right? Okay. And for you, your -- then sort of left, she's sort of moved away from you, shut you out and the first place you go is, oh my goodness, what I should have -- I haven't done it right, I didn't do it right, I should -- what you help me here, I sh-should be able to help her, uh if what -- if I was the best, best husband in the whole world, I would know how to help -- I want to help her with this pain, oh my goodness and-and I've done something wrong, is that what -- is that the first place you go.

15:40 Josh Yeah, usually the first place I go is what did I say wrong, I start kind of looking at what I have done and-and fortunately I look at instead of looking at it as this is a place where I just need to be supportive of her when she -- if she needs to go and I just, I look at myself and think, what have I done wrong, it would have been better if maybe I hadn't said anything, maybe I shouldn't have gone over an-and touched her.

16:10 Susan Johnson Right.

Josh (crosstalk)And I kind of --

Susan Johnson So you start thinking about all the things that somehow that you might have done to trigger this hurt, right?

16:15 Josh Yeah.

16:20 Susan Johnson Right. That's so hard, yeah?

Josh It is.

Susan Johnson Right, and even when your lady says, actually I brought this hurt with me, this hurt was just kind of waiting for me, it's almost like part of me, it's trying to warn me here not to be hurt again the way I was in the past. Even though, you can hear her saying that somehow in these situations, you start to feel responsible and you say, I've -- somehow I've done something wrong, right?

16:45 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson And then, okay, that's hard place to be.

Josh Yeah, it is.

Susan Johnson Because, suddenly you are by yourself.

16:50 Josh Yeah.

Susan Johnson You've lost your partner for a moment, this is big sort of gap between you, right. Something went dreadfully wrong and now you're sort of almost criticizing yourself and saying I should be able to fix this.

17:00 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Yeah.

Josh Very true. I-I look at it as something that I should be -- I should be able to fix this. And that's one of the things that I've-I've been slowly learning over this last year, and is that there are things that I can't walk in and say, this is how we are going to do it, it's going to be fixed this way that I have to let her work through it and I'm there to help, support her and-and if she needs anything to help her in that way, um, but thats--

17:30 Susan Johnson Can you hear him when he says that?

17:35 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson What happens to you when he says that?

Patty Umm.

Susan Johnson Do you believe him?

17:40 Patty I do believe him. I feel kind of sorry for him. Because I don't, I, because I don't feel like -- I know how to change that and he is responding to all the mess I'm carrying with me and um, makes me feel kind of bad for him. I can kind of step away from it and look at it from the outside and go, that poor guy.

18:05 Susan Johnson Right. But you've still got this fear inside of you and you can't -- that-that takes you over to, right?

18:10 Patty And that's the hard part about it, is that it's almost like being two different people because --

18:15 Susan Johnson You want to be close. And you --

18:20 Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson Yeah. I hear you. I just want to stay here for a minute. So when you are here saying to yourself, oh my goodness, my goodness, I should be able to fix this, you know. Come on, Josh. Get it together. What did you do wrong, fix it, fix it, fix it.

18:30 Josh Right.

Susan Johnson And she's gone, okay you help me, then what happens do you just end up feeling oh, I'm not the husband I should be. I'm terrible. Usually when we feel that, we just stay distant. We just sort of go away and hide which would mean that both of you were hiding out.

18:50 Josh Well. I-

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)But then What do you usually do?

Josh A lot of times I'll go in and-and try to pursue her.

18:55 Susan Johnson Ah. Okay.

Josh If I know she's gone off into the room, after I have kind of gone through that period of what have I done, I'll go into the room and-and try to draw some of it out, try to find out what's going on, why she is sad.

19:10 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)So how and what'd you do there? How'd you do that? Do you say, hey --

Josh I'm usually knocking on the door.

19:15 Susan Johnson Are you?

Josh Yeah. I usually knock on the door and ask her, you know, what's going on? Are you okay? Can I get you anything? I'm very service-oriented. Um. So I'm usually looking at her and trying to say can I get you something? Could you use a cup of tea? Do you like you know anything --

19:35 Susan Johnson But, well, han-hang-hang on a second though. You're trying to -- you-you realize on some level that she is hurting and she's scared and you are trying to take care of her but it must be also very difficult for you that suddenly she's gone and you're feeling like, you somehow should have -- you've done something wrong, that must be very difficult for you. For you, what do you do with your feelings then? Right. I mean you go in and say are you all right, which you're saying, I am care orientated. That's amazing you can do that, but you- okay, that you can move into empathy, right. I mean I'm not sure I'll be able to do that, okay. If I had just got married and my partner, when I start to get close or when we have a little fight, my partner suddenly disappears on me. That's amazing that you can stay empathic and say are you all right in there? Right?

20:30 Josh Uh-huh.

Susan Johnson But that's very difficult for you.

20:35 Josh It is. I-I kind of stuff.

Susan Johnson You stuff.

20:40 Josh Yeah. I take those feelings and just kind of stuff them away and put them in a box and kind of forget that they're there.

20:45 Susan Johnson Ah. Okay. And then what happens to them.

20:50 Josh They just stay there and --

Susan Johnson They do.

Josh -- after a while, occasionally they kinda burst out. I think burst out is a good way to say that.

21:00 Susan Johnson Eeh. Oh you help me what does burst out look like? What is that? You get angry?

21:05 Josh Um, I do. Um. And it's --and unfortunately it's little things. That's when it finally just kind of blows out. I stuff all the big stuff and then something small will happen, and I get very angry and frustrated and-and then I kind of disconnect and go sit in the garage.

21:25 Patty The man cave.

Susan Johnson So you're in the bathroom, and you're in the garage. Yeah, well, you know. Okay. But wi- the you get angry, there is something -- you go- you have two reactions. It's like, first of all, you know on some level that she is in pain, right?

21:45 Josh Yeah.

Susan Johnson And some part of you cares and says oh, are you all right? Are you all right? And then some part of you says, I should be able to fix this. I need to fix this, right. But there is another part of you that gets hurt and angry that you are being shut off.

21:55 Josh Yes.

22:00 Susan Johnson Because, that's sort of, you help me if I got the right word, that's rejection, yeah on some level.

22:05 Josh Yes. It makes me feel very alone.

Susan Johnson Right.

22:10 Josh Disconnected.

Susan Johnson Okay. And then you get angry. And when you get angry, what happens? I mean when he's calling through the door, what I am hearing is, you can't quite let him in?

22:20 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson Right. You hear him at some level but you-you can't quite let him in, right?

22:25 Patty Right.

Susan Johnson But when he gets angry, what happens?

Patty My response to the anger um, when he gets anger-angry, is to um, attack back. Um. Part of my history is, I grew up a, um, an alcoholic abusive home and uh, my father was the alcoholic and I learned very, very young to appease him and my sister and my mom were the ones that unfortunately suffered most of his abuse because they coward, they were afraid. So I learned very young that the way to not to be abused, is to stand up and not to show your fear and so when that happens, it --

23:05 Susan Johnson Escalates into --

23:10 Patty Escalates into this, you know, cat in the corner thing. I feel cornered and then it can get very, very ugly.

23:20 Susan Johnson Okay.

Patty Because at that point, it turns into attack for me because it's-it's another way to push back.

23:25 Susan Johnson Okay. So then you get angry. Yeah, I-I want you to notice what I'm during here right, it's what you do with Keith, which is I am plotting this emotional drama, the steps in this emotional drama here and-and so then you get angry and when he gets angry suddenly, there is some part of you that says right, he is threatening, right.

23:50 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson It's another man coming for me, I will show him. And you get really mad back and then you guys get into a fight right, and then what happens, I want to know. Can you come back from this? Can you get into a fight and then what happens?

24:05 Josh And then there is just quiet, disconnect her.

Susan Johnson Okay.

Patty Until he starts and then he usually goes back into after a while.

24:15 Susan Johnson Trying to reach for you.

Patty Yes and-

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)I got it.

Patty - can I get you something? Can I --

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Ah..

Patty and-and when I say a while, I mean that can be a day, two days, three days-

24:20 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Oooh, okay.

Patty (crosstalk)It-It can be not just a few minutes. It is-

24:25 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Three days is a long time to stay disconnected, guys.

Patty It's a very long time and in that time, I start feeling very laden inside, just dead because I know that I need the connection and I know I want the connection but at those points, I feel completely unequipped to reconnect.

24:45 Susan Johnson You feel really stuck.

Patty Very stuck.

24:50 Susan Johnson Right. Because the fear is so big, it's really blocking you from taking these risks.

24:55 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson Yeah. And laden is a good word. I guess, it's sort of heavy, you can't move, you can't move, it's like lead, yeah. Alright.

25:05 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson All right, okay. And then, you come back. You knock on the door again. Do you -- are you all right, where are you? Where are you? Are you in there, is that what you do?

25:10 Josh Yes. I've-I've-I've stood out that door for quite a while one day just kind of knocking on the door and-and trying to talk to her, and try to coax her out um, because a lot of times, the way I try to reconnect is by doing that but if she's not ready for it --

25:30 Susan Johnson You are trying to tell her I am safe, it's okay.

25:35 Josh Right.

Susan Johnson You're trying to tell her, look, you know, I'm here. I wanna be here for you. I wanna to be a safe place for you. I wanna to learn how to be your husband that you can feel safe with. I'm reaching. That takes a lot of courage to do that, yeah?

25:45 Josh Yeah. It would probably sound better if I said it that way too. Instead of why don't you just come out and we'll figure this out.

26:00 Susan Johnson Yeah. Okay. But you still come back, that's what, I mean, you are dealing with your feelings, you know, you're just married. Right?

26:05 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson I mean, um, you're learning how to trust each other still. And things go wrong and you get stuck in this, right and you go into this awful place where you say I should be able to fix it maybe, I'm just somehow not good at this or, that's a very insecure place to be.

26:25 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson You get angry and this -- all this takes over and then you guys get stuck in fighting in distance but you still come back, and you still come back from that and you knock on the door and you reach for her. Yeah?

26:35 Josh I try to. And I know that it's hard for her to-to reconnect after feeling unsafe and-and so a lot of times, I'll just kind of -- after a little while, I'll say, I know that this is something that I can't fix. After we have gone through, unfortunately, this whole cycle over and over again and I have said, okay, I'm going to do other stuff around the house and I'll try to connect later but-

27:10 Patty Having the kids there too, makes it a completely different dynamic. Um, they go with their dad every other weekend, and so wha-a lot of times what I noticed, a pattern was happening, is that we can -- because I'm very sensitive to not doing this dance in front of the kids-

27:25 Josh Yea.

Patty because they've already had it hard enough and-

27:30 Susan Johnson Right. So you don't have a lot of space to work this stuff out.

27:35 Patty And so when they have gone for the weekend, all the sudden-

Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Oooh!

Patty I've got plenty of space.

27:40 Josh (crosstalk)Yea.

Patty And so, the weekends that we have alone that should be really nice time alone end up being not such nice times because I-I suddenly have the room to to really feel what I'm feeling and I don't have to you know--

27:55 Susan Johnson What happens to you when you're hear, when we were talking like this and you really -- do you really -- you really get the feeling that Josh really wants to be there for you.

28:05 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson Can you let that in? Right here right now, does that feel -- can you let that in and let that comfort you in a little bit?

28:15 Patty I can a little bit. It's a very little bit.

28:20 Susan Johnson Okay.

Patty I think what happens for me, a lot of times when we are talking, uh, last week when we met with Dr. Edwards is, when we were talking I was able to um, kind of get in touch with some empathy for Josh which doesn't happen very often for me. He's the empathetic one of the two of us.

28:40 Susan Johnson Well, it's hard to be empathic when this huge fear comes for you, yeah? And your whole body goes into what can I do here, you know, to survive. It's very hard to look out over that fear and actually see your partner and see that your partner is hurting, right.

29:00 Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson So I think it's pretty good that you could do that. Anyhow, I'm sorry I interrupted you.

29:05 Patty Well, I was just- I was just going to say that I can -- I feel that. I can feel it a little bit here and uh, last week when we were having our session, uh, and its just this amazing. I can feel my heart opening. The problem is, that's the safe confines of that room. And then we leave, and all the sudden the doors slam shut again, it slam shut again and that's um, very frustrating to me because while I was sitting there, I was um, beginning to feel connected again because it was, it felt like a safe place.

29:45 Susan Johnson Hmm.

Patty And so that's kind of frustrating to me that we walk out of the room all the sudden, I shut down again.

29:50 Susan Johnson Mmhmm.

Patty Obviously, we can't stay there all the time.

29:55 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)I. Well, well, I think it's -- that's the way it goes, right. You take a little tiny risks. But I think you're telling this man something really important actually. You're saying to him, you help me, okay. You are saying to him even though I've suddenly hit this wall of fear. Hmm?

30:10 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson -- in our relationship, and I'm realizing I have got to go through that in order to connect with you. Um, you know part of me really does want to be with you and that's very alive, right. Its just struggling through this wall of fear.

30:25 Patty (crosstalk)Yes.

Susan Johnson And I do see you and the fact that you'll come into therapy with me and the fact that you're the way you are in therapy which is, you reach for me and you're open and I do believe in your caring, helps me for a moment. It helps me open my heart, right.

30:40 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson That's what you're telling him. Yeah?

30:45 Patty Very much so. In fact I'm sure for him, it feels like in those moments when he is trying to do those little things. Can I get you some tea? Can I, you know-- the little things.

30:55 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)You hear the caring.

Patty I do hear it. He doesn't see that I hear it because I can't show him that. But it does affect me, in a positive way. I just --

31:05 Susan Johnson So what you telling him is I see you, I see you reaching for me and in some part of my heart, it touches me.

31:15 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson Your-your being here with me touches me. It's just that I am so afraid. That's what you're telling him?

31:20 Patty Exactly.

Susan Johnson Can you tell him that right now? I'd like you to tell him that directly.

31:25 Patty When you're doing those things, I, I do feel it. I'm just too afraid to show you that I feel you reaching for me. And my heart is responding to it a little bit, as much as it can and I don't want you to stop doing those things. I need you to keep doing that.

31:45 Susan Johnson I need you to keep helping me step out. I need you, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you hear her?

31:55 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson What happens to you when you hear her say this?

32:00 Josh I feel that I'm-I've got some worth that I can-I can help her. That she wants my help is great. She wants to let me in.

32:15 Susan Johnson Aha. That's really, really important for you. Isn't it?

32:20 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson 'Cause if I was on the other side of that door, knocking, right -- if I was on the other side of that door, I mean I'd be reaching but there'd be part of me that was really hurting from being shut out and getting angry and hurting, right.

32:35 Josh Yea.

Susan Johnson So you do really need to know that when you are starting there knocking, dealing with all your own feelings, that some it is reaching her, yea. And that helps you feel that you have worth. That's an interesting word, Josh, worth. Hmmm. Can you help me, is that kind of like what are the places you go then, when you're standing outside the door knocking you go into my goodness, if she can just shut me out what, I'm-I'm not important to her. She doesn't need me. I don't, I don't have worth. Is that one of the places you go?

33:15 Josh Yeah. It-It makes me feel very, um discounted like there is -- she doesn't really need me around. She can take her off herself. I mean, she's, you know, already been married once and was doing a fine job as a single mom after that and then I came in. And-

33:35 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)Mmhmm.

Josh There is certain things that I bring to the table and-and one of them was to be there to...

33:45 Susan Johnson That's the one of the most amazing thing, that's most incredible gift. Isn't it? That's really something that you can do, yeah. And lots and lots and lots, lots of people don't know how to do that, right. And you can do it even when you're scared, and being your partners turning away from you and then some part of you getting angry, right and some -- but you're going into, oh my goodness, maybe she doesn't need me you can still come out and stand up and be there in the dance with her, yeah.

34:20 Josh Yes.

Susan Johnson That's pretty amazing. Isn't it?

Josh Yea.

Susan Johnson Huh. That's pretty amazing that you can do that. But what you're saying is, yeah, it's important to hear this 'cause then I have -- I know I do matter to you. Right? I know I am having an impact on you. I do matter. You do see me, right.

34:40 Josh (crosstalk)Right. I'm not invisible, I'm there.

34:45 Susan Johnson I'm not invisible, right. So what you're telling her is, it really matters you tell me this because sometimes I get worried that I'm invisible and you don't need me at all. And I'm just kind of I'm not really important in your life, I'm just kind of on the edge. You could do fine without me. So this really matters to me, right.

35:05 Josh It does.

Susan Johnson Can you tell her how it feels when she says those things directly?

35:10 Josh It matters a lot, that-that I know that I'm there for you that-that you know that, that I want to be there especially to hear it. It's nice, um, it helps me feel like I got some sort of worth, some sort of value.

35:35 [sil.]

35:45 Susan Johnson Mhmm....What's happening?

Josh It's just- it's nice to look at her and feel connected.

35:50 Susan Johnson Yes, right.

Patty We may have to live on this stage.

35:55 Josh Yeah.

36:00 Susan Johnson Well, in that case, we need lots of tea.

Josh Yes, yes, we do.

36:05 Susan Johnson 'Cause, I can't be up here without tea. But um, I mean I just met you but I'm sort of blown away by how -- and obviously you have done some incredible work with Keith, okay. Uhh. But I mean you are in a difficult situation. I don't think this is so unusual actually. I think what this is what happens to people. People fall in love and all these wonderful things are happening and they can sort of put all their fears of depending on someone else on the-on the- on the shelf. And then suddenly there is a sudden moment where we suddenly realize oh my goodness, this person has such an impact on me, I can get so hurt here. I'm so vulnerable and that vulnerability kicks in and we -- often we don't have many ways of dealing with it. Yeah, we really don't and usually we go back to the way that we learned from long ago. And it's tricky we can get struck in it but you guys, I mean you are, you know, able to talk about this, to hear each other, to own your feelings, to work on this. I mean I hope you see that you are really dealing with this in an amazing way. You do see that, don't you?

37:30 Patty I see that he deals with it in an amazing way. I still see that I'm a mess.

37:35 Susan Johnson You're a mess.

37:40 Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson Really?

Patty Yeah.

37:45 Susan Johnson Well I guess I see you struggling with a huge amount of fear.

37:50 Patty Yeah. It would be really nice to not carry that fear with me. It's been a lot of years of carrying fear with me, really all my life.

38:00 Susan Johnson Ah. Right.

Patty All that I can -- all of my life that I can remember, there's been a fear of um-- a fear of -- uh

38:15 Susan Johnson (crosstalk)When you need...

Patty -- the men that I'm in relationship with, starting with my father.

38:20 Susan Johnson So it's so hard to trust right?

Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson And you are aware, that this is all coming up now. Maybe it's coming of exactly because here you have a man who really wants to be with you and wants to take care of you. Here you have a man who is leaning down and inviting you to come to the dance, right.

38:40 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson He really is inviting you.

Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson And this is what you longed for all your life.

38:45 Patty And that makes it somehow much more scary.

Susan Johnson Yes, of course. Of course.

38:55 Patty Because I know how to deal with the men who don't invite and the men who cause pain. That I know how to deal with. Well, I don't enjoy it but I'm used to it. This is completely new.

39:05 Susan Johnson Yes. I hear you, right because Josh is standing there and inviting you to a whole different kind of dance that you've ever had before, right.

39:15 Patty Yes. Yeah.

Susan Johnson And some part of you says, are you joking? You got to be joking.

39:25 Patty That's almost what I said when he proposed I think. Almost.

39:30 Susan Johnson Uh-huh. So you help me, when you are not in -- what you said, in therapy I start to feel safe just for a moment, now I can put this fear aside. But you help me, are there ever times at home you can see the dance you're caught in, okay and that's amazing that you can do that. All right. Lots of couples can't do that. They have to do a lot of work before they can do that. So you can see the dance you are caught in. You can tell me the steps. And I feel like both of you are able to stand back and say, we are caught in it, right. So it's not like you get totally stuck in that cycle. Are there ever times at home when you can actually turn and actually talk to Josh about this fear, about the fear that comes for you. Have you ever been able to do that without Keith?

40:20 Patty I think so. There been a couple of times um, that we have that I have been able to um, sit and try to explain what it's feeling like to me. Sometimes it takes several go arounds before I feel like he is hearing me because inevitably it gets very emotional again and then it starts into and you know, another argument. So we have to go our separate ways and it's taken two, three sometimes four times. But um, yes, at the end of all of that, it's come to the place where I feel like I have effectively communicated and-and that he has heard me. And that's...

41:05 Susan Johnson That must be...

Patty That's an amazingly satisfying feeling to, to feel like I've been finally heard and-and understood where the craziness is coming from.

41:20 Susan Johnson It's not crazy.

Patty It feels crazy.

Susan Johnson No. Uh, no Patty, it's not crazy, okay. There's nothing crazy about suddenly finding a man who actually offers you what you've always longed for which is closeness and suddenly as you walk towards it, part of you that's been hurt in the past says, wait a minute, are you sure? You could get so hurt, don't you remember? Don't you remember how scared and small you felt and you stopped, that's not crazy.

41:55 Patty And that voice is very, very loud.

42:00 Susan Johnson Is it?

Patty Very loud.

Susan Johnson What does that voice say?

42:05 Patty It says this is dangerous.

42:10 Susan Johnson This is dangerous.

42:15 Patty It's foolish to trust.

42:20 Susan Johnson Don't trust. Only fools trust.

Patty Yes.

42:25 Susan Johnson And if you trust?

42:30 Patty You'll get hurt.

Susan Johnson You'll get...

Patty That's the -- it feels -- that voice in my head says, that's the inevitable end.

42:35 Susan Johnson There's nothing you can do about it. That's gonna happen. That's just what's gonna happen.

42:45 Patty That's what it feels like, yes.

Susan Johnson It's inevitable.

Patty Yeah.

Susan Johnson You do this... Yeah?

42:50 Patty And it will end in a very painful way.

Susan Johnson You bound to get hurt. There is no other way. There is no other way that it could happen, it could end. eh?

43:00 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson Because that is what's happened.

Patty Yes. And yet there is that little tiny voice that says no there is still hope. It could still but-but there are times that I feel like, man, is that just a fairy tale. I mean -- and I-I know because I have friends who have good, happy, satisfying marry-marriages that it can't just be a fairy tale. But in those moments it feels like maybe for me that's just a fairy tale. Maybe for my personal experience that's only a fairy tale. That can't happen for me.

43:35 Susan Johnson Some part of you says, is not for me. This couldn't possibly be happening for me.

Patty Right. Right. (crosstalk)

43:40 Susan Johnson Even though, forgive me, Josh does look rather like a fairy prince to me actually.

43:50 Patty He's pretty handsome.

Susan Johnson He is, isn't he? He is very handsome, yes. But there is some part of you, that's trying to protect you, right.

44:00 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson There is some part of you that's trying to protect you and says, don't, don't, don't. Are you joking? You must not let yourself hope, think of all the things. You said, you'd never let yourself get hurt like this before. Are you -- again are you crazy. This is going to happen again. It's dangerous, dangerous, don't, right. Just keep him at a distance, protect yourself, right.

44:20 Patty And I-I think, you are using the word hope is really key because often I feel like it's hopeless that is not something that I can have and-and not because of who he is but because of my own brokenness. That's where the hopelessness comes from is my brokenness and my inability to-to connect and make this happen.

44:45 Susan Johnson Ah. Mhm. So there is another piece of this besides the fear and that said, this is going to happen. It's like saying well, I was in all these dreadful situations and so I am wounded and broken.

45:05 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson So, how could a fairy prince really come and reach for me and want me because I'm the broken princess.

45:15 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson The love is for all the other princesses, who were never hurt and all right. How could he want to reach for me, I'm not a beautiful enough princess. I'm not a-I'm a hurt princess. How could you really wanna be with me, right.

45:30 Patty Very much still. That's well said. That's exactly the way it feels.

45:35 Susan Johnson Mhmm.. So what you're saying to Josh actually is funny because Josh goes into this place where he says or maybe I'm not clever enough, I can't heal you. Maybe I can't fix you, maybe I'm -- you don't need me. And actually what I'm hearing you says is, actually Josh it is not really like that. It's the -- you are offering me something so precious and you're so amazingly different and you are so magical compared to all the other people I've seen. I hardly know how to trust it and I can't really believe that you would want to come and be with me in all my hurt and all my fear. That's what you are telling him.

46:20 Patty That's exactly it.

46:25 Susan Johnson Right. Right.

46:30 Patty And he hasn't quite been able to convince me that...

46:35 Susan Johnson Oh, he will.

Patty That he is willing to and that he can. I mean I see that he's willing to but it doesn't -- hasn't quite convinced me. And I think it's because that just seems too much to hope for.

46:50 Susan Johnson You are telling him, I'm having a hard time trusting because actually you are too much to hope for not because you can't fix it or you are not important. It's because I can hardly believe you too good to be true you too-and that you would want me with all my brokenness.

47:05 Patty Yes.

Susan Johnson This is so hard for me to imagine, yeah.

47:10 Patty And with my three children who I -- uh, his mom is actually one of my best friends.

47:15 Susan Johnson Right.

Patty So that worked out well for me. My mother-in-law was my friend but I remember telling her that.(crosstalk)

47:20 Susan Johnson (crosstalk) I want-Hang on-No I want you to slow down a minute. Can you help her with that feeling right now. She's telling you Josh ain't I just too broken for you to, you would really want to struggle to come and be with me, aren't I, maybe I'm just too broken. I'm scared that I'm just not the beautiful princess enough for, yeah, you to keep fighting to be with me. What happens to you when she says that?

47:50 Josh It-It makes me want to tell her that-that it- you are who I want to be with. I don't wanna be with anybody else.

48:05 Susan Johnson You are my princess. Huh?

Josh That's right.

Susan Johnson Whether you are broken or not, you're my princess.

48:10 Josh That's right. And like we talked about just last week and in previous conversations that, it-whatever needs to be done for this marriage to work, I want to do that. I want to work with you and I wanna be there for you because you're very important to me. I love you very much. And I-I see that you are scared and-and you are hurt. But I want to be there, for you to lean on and carry you through it, if you need that.

48:50 Susan Johnson Now, I'm just going to be there, right. I'm just going to be there till you open the door, all right.

48:55 Josh That's where I will be.

49:00 Susan Johnson Can you hear him? Can you hear him? Can-Can you hear him? I don't know how loud the roar of the fear is right now. Can you hear over the roar?

49:10 Patty I can hear him faintly over the roar.

49:15 Susan Johnson Right. Mhmm. Right. The roar is going to get less, okay. You are going to keep working on it with Keith. The roar is going to get less, okay. You just need to take little steps. Right because you know that's the way it works with fear. Yes, we just take little steps and he is going to be there for you and you guys are going to learn how to do this and learn how to create this safe haven place for each other. You can do that. It's not a fairy tale. It's not a fairy tale, you can do it. Guys you're going do-do just fine, alright. Umm. We need to stop. I want to tell you, I feel very honored that you let me in the way you have. Thank you so much for doing that.

50:05 Patty Thank you.

50:10 Josh Thank you.

Susan Johnson I appreciate you. K.

50:15 [sil.]

50:25 Susan Johnson Hey Josh, did very well.

50:35 [sil.]

50:40 Susan Johnson Okay. So we don't have very much time. But um, that um, I hope that you saw a little bit of what an EFT therapist does with tracking a dance of interactions and staying with emotions and working with them and expanding them, right, so that they become more specific and more real and then really helping people turn and have very specific kinds of interactions with each other to create a more secure bond. Thank you for coming everybody.

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