The New Strong-Willed Child

TRANSCRIPTS

Listen: Living with the Strong Willed Child I

Welcome to family

talk with your host, psychologist and author

Dr. James Dobson. I'm Luann crane here with Ryan Dobson who is

super excited about our topic today because we're going to come back to some classic content

of yours dad, in how to raise kids who are just naturally

difficult to deal with? Not mine and not

tutors. I don't know. What do you mean

you're the model? Well, that's right. We're going to discuss

the content of a book that I wrote in 1978 at dealing

with children. It's called the

strong-willed child. And it's sold more

than 4 million copies. Yeah. I don't want

to interrupt. I just want you to

state once and for all everybody

listening now, was I really the model

for strong and child. The truth of matter

was your sister? I'd milk or eight

everybody could now it's asking me that I even said in the book that that the NEH was

strong-willed child in your snaky yes. You wouldn't just

take us on, right? You too smart for that. You would see what you

could get away with. How is it that

our roles have reversed as we've

gotten older? That now I'm the

headstrong one and today's the

compliant on there's still the germ of

Vermont there somewhere. The book has been virtually rewritten and is now called the new

strong-willed child. But the concepts

are the same. And when I first put those ideas on

paper, frankly, many professionals in the child development

community did not perceive the behavior of children the way I've

described it there. It was common in those

days to see children as being what's

call tabula rasa, a blank soya. They were born neutral. They were born without a temperament, without

a personality. They came into the

world and then the environment

stamped its influence on that individual and then determine the person he or she would eventually be. That's why it's

called determinism. It was wrong then and

it is dead wrong now. And I knew it, I saw it, and that's what

I wrote about, that there are

characteristics that a child is born with. You can't linked

them to environment. It's not a result of a negative or

positive influences. It just is. And frankly, I think it was foolish of us to think otherwise. I mean, if every grain of sand at the beach is

unique and different, and every snowflake looks different. Now

all different. How silly to think that God stamps out human beings as complex as they are and make some all alike until the environment

comes along. In fact, I've been

watching a lot of science videos

and DVDs lightly. And it's fascinating. Do you know that the nuclear physicist and they astrophysicists and other very learned

people are now saying the human brain is the most complex thing

in the universe. And so the notion that somehow they're sort

of rubber stamped, it is just I'm fortunate, and that's what I was

taught in school and I rejected it because it's not what we read

in scripture. Well, Dad, that was,

as we can tell, a revolutionary

idea in its time. And I think in a way, you've taken a lot of pressure off of

parents because what they were teaching

you then what you thought was

wrong and now we know for certain is wrong, is that it's all

up to the parents. However, your child acts

as 100% your doing. And you said then and now that's

not the case. Some kids are born with that little band that says I'm going to fight. Yeah, I can't,

I'm gonna fight. Yeah. As a matter of fact, the University

of Minnesota has done twin studies for many, many years where they have identical twins who were

separated at birth. So they have exactly

the same genetics, but they have very different environmental

influences. What the researchers found is that there's about an 80% overlap

between the two. There just a lot

of studies that have been done that

shows office, right. And at first, I

wasn't the only one, but it just didn't seem

to make sense to me. Well, doctor, all

that background really perfectly explains why today's topic hit such a court with

moms, especially. You invited several of them into the studio

a while ago. And Ryan, we are going to hear from

them, introduce him. Well, three of the

moms were from Colorado Springs

at the time and they include

Deborah Marat, who was a retired

school teacher and the mother of four. Kristen Walker, who still teaches

high schoolers, and is also the

mother of four. And she had along with

her daughter Liz, who was 17 years old at the time of

this recording. And also in the studio

was Joy Solomon. She really was

the reason for this Family Talk program coming into existence. Here now is our host, as he really explains more about how this panel

came together. And I want to start

by telling you how this program

came about. I was in Alabama several months ago

with Shirley and we were having

lunch kind of is and on an outdoor

porch as I recall, and happen to be sitting

across from Joy and Davey and didn't know them began to

get acquainted. And how did that

conversation start, joy, I think you I think it started when we first met. It was so funny when

you said Hi, I'm Jim. Like we wouldn't recognize that voice immediately. Overwhelming. And I

said, well, I'm Joy, but I'm surprised

you don't remember ME because you lived

with us for a while. And you said I did

and I said Yes, for about three years

when we were really working with that strong well-child and he said, Oh, you have one of

those. And I said yes. And you ask how old he was. And I said, well, it's

a she and she is now 19 and doing very well. But you had your

sharing dark days. Now, joy, the reason that I wanted

you to be here today with kind of

built a program around what you said to me

that there is a year, kind of a

quintessential mother of a strong Wiltshire. You experienced those

frustrations that I was trying to talk

about a few minutes ago. And the guilt and the self condemnation and self-doubt all him that

was there for you. From very, very early was? Yes. How soon after

your daughter was born Did you know that she was going

to take you on? I think probably when you bring them home

from the hospital. There there's that that

clue that comes on. Our son was only

nine months old when I was ready to

have another baby because I was an

exceptional mom. He slept eight hours a

night at 12 weeks old. He woke up in his bed and played until you

went to get him? Oh, I knew that was a sure. You got your name. Has a mother. And I said, oh, I'm ready

for another one. And I think unwittingly we sort of day or God, because number one, I was never going to have

a picky eater. And number two, I would not tolerate a thumb soccer. While Jason, we have to buy stock in Oscar Meyer because he lived off

of hotdogs and below, No, he was the

piggy a stator. And then I would not have had a thumb soccer and Dana would have given up her parents before she

gave up her thumb. And I was a wonderful mom, so all of my kids were

going to be great. I think it was in Varney isn't for cowards

that I talked about. The fact that

nature kind of does a number on parents that give

you an easy first. And you congratulate

yourself on what a great

parents you are. And bam, here comes

this little tiger said smoking a cigar and

she slept through the night at maybe

15 months old. And at 18 months old, You could tell her No. And she would fall

on the floor and throw her fifth

roll around and we would sit and watch

her for awhile because we weren't going to given where we are

going to be strong. And she would stand

up and she would have that beautiful angelic face and she would

say, I'm sorry. And she would come

over layer head on my lap and then

she would bite me. And that was the first clue because it was

a manipulation. She made sure that you weren't worried

about what she was going to do

and she was very, very tough. Very tough. She knows that you're here to do. Yes, she does. And she has given

permission. She did tell a story because it does have

a happy ending. And in fact, that's

one of the things we want to say to parents

who are out there. Just don't panic,

hang in there. But you still have to know how to cope with it. The amount of intelligence

and a strong will. And when you take a keen intelligence and

a strong will. And especially

for us at age 16, when the Spirit

turns defiant, we're in a world of hurt. Now. Joia, I'm anxious to get to the others of you, but I really

want you to help folks understand this who have never seen a

strong well-child. I know some families was six or seven or eight kids and not a one of them

has this temperament. And you need to help people understand just

what it's like. This is not just

disobeying occasionally. I mean, every

child does this. This is not even just

toddler tantrums. This is a war of wills from the very

early moments of life. Yeah. I remember I

key time for us was. She was five

years old and she was a physically

strong child. And there was an

episode where she had been out throwing

rocks that cars. And I called her in

and I said Dana, why were you throwing

rocks at cars? And she said,

well, I did warn them as they went

down the street. I told him if they came by and they didn't

belong on my straight, that I'd have to

throw a rock at their car Somali through a hole that didn't

belong on our street. And I said we live

on a cold sack. Where were they going? And she had that look that she would give

you when you just really weren't

understanding what she was saying that she said that's

not my fault. So it was

understandable to her. We're on a cul-de-sac. So it wasn't her fault that someone had built

the streak that way. I took her hand to

spank her and she said, You're not going

to spank me. I'm going to wait until

my dad, he gets home. Where you've met David. He has a large man. Her concept for

that was the longer you put off

those spanking, the longer time she had to work at

Purdue finance. Why she should

be right in what she was doing and did

not deserve a spiking. And I said, no, I'm

going to spank you now. And she said,

no, you're not you will not spank me. And I said Yes, I will. And that day, I think was a terrifying day because I physically could

not control her. She threw every ounce of strength and strong

will into fighting me. And it was a battle that probably lasted an

hour and a half, and this child was

five years old, how did it end? It ended with ME putting her out

in the garage. And she was walking

around screaming. And she rang the

doorbell and she said I'll take

my spanking now. Because if ever you

let them weigh on the smallest

battles, it's lost. And I spanked her. And a good friend of ours, a pastor in Columbus. I went to see him and

I said I met my width. Yeah. I don't physically know how to control

this child. And he said every night when you put her to bed, I want you and Davey

to go in and I want you to lay hands on her

while she's asleep. And what you're

going to pray for the Holy Spirit to conquer the strong will while not destroying

her spirit, because that's what

makes her who Dana is. And we did that

every night. We would go in and we would pray over her and

lay hands on her. And it was probably

about six months later. She got up one

morning and she said, You know, I'm bad sometimes. And

I said I know. And she said, I don't

mean the things I say, I'm not gonna do

that anymore. And probably for the

next five years, ten years, somewhere

around in that range. While it wasn't gone, she was able to control it. And then she hit

adolescence. You were not a pushover

where you made your determined to

discipline myself. It's not a matter

of a mom who's out of control and letting it get get away

with murder. Way we're to

the point where I remember one

night we were at a restaurant and I

innocently said, does anyone need to

go to the bathroom? And they both started

screaming at the top of their lungs because

going to the bathroom, minuss spanking

because thank God. Now I just meant to

go to the bathroom. I didn't mean you

you've been bad. Dana sigh, every spank, every bathroom in Columbus, Georgia, causeway would

go in for US banking. Go in for US

banking because she was just that define

strong-willed spirit. I have one more

story I want you to tell them, I'll

get to the others. Your son decided to

runaway from he did. I want to this is what we heard at the luncheon

that we had in Alabama. And I would do we called it lovingly the doctor

Dobson spill, where I would say, Oh,

Mother loves you so much and and you have

to be my big boy. And you go through that

and you go through that every time

he would say I'm going to run

away from home. Well, one night it just struck me. Okay.

This is it. So he was in his little

pajamas and he said, if you make me go too bad, I'm gonna run

away from home. So I said, Well,

we'll see you later, buddy, you know,

have a nice trip. So he rang the

doorbell and he said to me tonight

and I say, well, I do, I am I'm

really tired of this. It's time for you to go. But let me pack your bag. You'll need pajamas

and things. And he said, well, I might need to

think about this. And I said,

Well, you've got about three minutes while

I go pack your bag. Has said it's

important to me that you stay here

and bear a son. But this is your decision. Either you run away or I never hear this again. You decide to live here, and I don't hear

that again. So I went and got

the suitcase. I don't think I put

anything in it. And I went back and opened the door

and he said, well, I've been thinking about it and I guess I'm

going to stay. And I said but never say that to me again

to you understand. He said, Yes, Mayo. And from then on,

he would say, if you make me do that, I'm not going to be

your best friend, then I'd say,

well, that's sad. But what works for

one has to work for the other because I

was the stay at home, mom and Diana was

going through her. I'm going to run

away from home and go to run

away from home. So one night I had

had it and I said, well, I'll see you later. And it's funny the pictures that stay in your mind. She had on a strawberry

short cake robe and strawberry short

cake slippers and her little blonde hair. And it went sat down and looked at

me and he said, she's been out there

about five minutes. Do you think maybe she should have rang the

doorbell and I said No. She's got that

defiant spirit. We're going to give

her about ten minutes. So I went to

the front door. There was nobody there. And only by the grace

of God did we live on that cold a sack

because there was a street lamp and

she was down at the street lamp

with her thumb out. She was hitching

around helpless, you know, she was probably

six at this point. She's gonna

catch it, right. He was catching a ride and a notary or whatsoever

row in the road, the slippers

needed nothing. Now, you told me I

could runaway spot. What am I supposed

to be used to you? I want to hear some

tell us your story. Well, in hindsight, I think we knew

shortly after birth, ten days old, she went into the hospital

spinal meningitis. Is okay. And as they

were trying to get a spinal tap fluid instead of compliant Li going into a fetal position

as they held her down, she would Archer

back ten days old and ended up going through. Ten or 12 spinal taps

before they could get untainted spinal

fluid to to culture to see

if she really had spinal meningitis. And in fact, it was so bad they ended

up going through a brain to get to the base of her or her

spine to do that. And then at 18 months, we were visiting some

friends and for dinner. And my two older kids were there and they had cut glass candy dishes at each end of their couch. They didn't have

any children yet. They could do that. And I told my two

oldest children, these are glass,

they'll break, don't touch them, don't play rough around here. I didn't even mention

them to lists. I thought I'll

deal with that when the time comes. And when she finally

saw him after dinner, we went

through that. No, you're not going

to touch that? No, we're not going

to touch that. And one finger and

everything else. And my friend after the battle was

over, she said, do you realize you

spanked or hand nine times to get her

to understand? Now she understood. She understood

for that moment. No question about the fact that you

are saying no, don't do this.

She understood. But she was simply saying, I think I can outlast

you. Oh, yes. And in my mind, probably the

epitome war that we thought she was

probably five. And I had been

homeschooling the kids, my husband's Air Force and so we were

living in Alabama at the time and we're

home school and the kids and

she decided she wasn't getting enough

attention one day. And so I pull

her up on my lap and while she was sitting on my lap and I was

still trying to teach, you started kicking me

with one of her legs? Well, I I put

her leg between my legs so she

couldn't kick me anymore. Well,

that didn't work. So she started kicking

me with the other once I put both

legs between her, then she started pinching

your scratching. We ended up on the floor. She was spread

eagle on a floor. I was holding her down

so that she could not hurt me or try to

do damage to me. And she's screaming,

let go of me, let go of me. And I'm saying we're here until you calm day on. And she quit crying. And I'd start to pray and she'd immediately start screaming in dough

to pray for me. So we'd start again. And this was a good 45-minute battle listener. You remember that? I remember several

times where I would just argue

and seriously, I would end up on the

floor with mother on top of me saying,

who's going to win? Who's going to

want you to go on? Go on and go on for

hours, even some. Do you remember how you felt during those battles? Determine to wind you? Just I didn't want to well, I'm stronger than mom. It was just the

whole idea of being rebellious and doing

what I wanted to do. Deborah, let's hear

just a little bit. We've only got about

three or four minutes left and we'll start

with you next time. Tell us about your

strong-willed jive. Well, I kind of have to strong little children. I thought that I had won my first daughter

when she was born, she had a little bit of what lives went through. We did the you can't

you can't do this. And then I would have to go through a

little bit of the sitting on her and

making sure she obeyed. And I had one child at the time for 2.5 years. I had one child. She was my focus and I could do

all the things right. I could say, no, we're going to

do it this way. She would rip wallpaper

off the wall. She would do all these

things that I thought were just awful lot

turned out she was sick, she was asthmatic, and

she didn't feel well. When she didn't feel

well, she was cranky, so it made it

totally different. Child out of her when we took her to the

doctor and found out that there was a good

reason why she was just frustrated

and she was upset. So truly, I don't believe that she was a

strong Will child, two children later, I

had another child that definitely was a

struggling bonsai. She was a strong

Littlechild before she was born. She was part of a twin set. She has a twin brother and my only prayer

had been you were talking about how

God is funny. Sometimes. My only prayer had been if I'm

going to have a boy, girl twin SAT, which I kind of felt that

I would have. I want the boy to be

the football player and the girl to be the nice, sweet little

cheerleader. And in reality

it's my daughter. It's being recruited by the football team

at this point. Then my son is a

wonderful child. Whites tender poetry. I'll be the best

pediatrician in the whole world. So I had kind of a

flip-flop there too. When you say you knew

it before birth, the, I think in the film series I said long before birth the kinsmen scratch and initials on the walls. Is that the kind of thing the night before

they were born, I was scheduled

for C-sections. I don't dilate. So I had scheduled

c-sections for all of my deliveries and I was playing games

with some friends next door and I had this eruption

like a volcano or an earthquake

and my stomach, and I know that it's

probably not possible, but I swear she's

switch places with him like he was supposed to be the lower child, come out first and she just watch this horrible thing. I woke up in the

morning thinking that my watered broke and in reality I was kinda lane in a pool of blood. Child was going to come

out of that cervix, whether it dilated or not. And I was raised to

the hospital and I went into emergency

surgery at that point, but she was going to

come out no matter what she had to face. So talk about being born, smoking a cigar,

yelling orders at the nursing staff complaining about

the temperature. She was there and early

on then oh, yeah. In the first year

even I would say no from the day

we brought her home. Her dad has a personality very similar to her. He's kind of known as

Attila the Hun at work. And so she

favorite her dad. And I had twins. I

had two children. I had a five-year-old,

a three-year-old, and then I had

these two babies. No grandparents

lived close by. They would come

and visit and help us, but I was busy. I was a very busy

young mother and yes, she would scream and scream and scream

and I thought, well, she's sick,

she has problems. She's got colic

or whatever. Deadwood walk in

the room to talk about a baby flirting

and cooling, you know, that

sweet little thing. That's all she

wanted was dead so that you can

raise this child outweighs the other three because she's

stronger wheel that I am by ally. So how difficult was that for you emotionally? It was very

difficult because I I was a mother at heart. I'd always wanted

to be a mom. I had good

relationships with. I said I'd worked

through all those difficulties with

my first child, my second child, her name means gracious gift of God. She's precious.

She does what she can to help

me to serve. She's just a

wonderful child and then I get this child that's like my relatives, my in-laws, everybody called or

the kitten half. It's like, well, there's Debbie and the twins, but it's like 3.5

kids like this. This child is worth at

least 1.5 children. Well, as you could tell, there was quite

a chemistry in the studio as

Dr. adopts and wrapped up that first

part of this family talk series with moms of strong-willed

children, Luann, those moms shared so candidly and some of

their stories are funny, but there is a serious side to this issue as

well, and it's tough. Raising a

strong-willed child. We've only delve a little bit

into that today. We will tackle it again tomorrow when we

hear Part two of this conversation

and we really hope our listeners

will join us for that. And the book from your dad entitled The New

strong-willed child, really has changed lives, brought hope to

struggling moms and dads. Anyone who would

like a copy of this book can

find it again. The new strong

Littlechild at Family Talk.org or ask

about it when you call our number 87773268, Twenty-five, we

know you can find this book

other places, but when you request

it from Family Talk, you help us continue our work to

strengthen families. Again, connect

with us at Family Talk.org or ask

about it when you call our number again,

877 732682587773268. Twenty-five, thanks

for listening and join us tomorrow as we continue

this discussion on strong-willed children

will see you then. Family talk with

Dr. James Dobson. We're family comes first. Just where do you suppose my strong

well came from? That Ryan was not strong well-child.

He was sneaky. Sure. Dad, how do you help your kids

make their fate? Ok. You ought to be

asking the question, is this true or is this just what

I was taught, mom, how do you make

your house a home? It's a sad commentary on today's families that there so many children that are deprived of love. It's practical advice to help strengthen your family right here on family talk with Dr. James Dobson.

Listen: Living with the Strong Willed Child II

Welcome to family

talk with your host, psychologist and author and my dad, Dr. James Dobson. I'm Ryan Dobson here with my co-host, lewin Craig. Always a pleasure to be here with you gentlemen. Dr. we're continuing

a program today that can only

be called class. It is a classic glue and what we shared with

our listeners last time and what we're

going to hear again today just could not

be manufactured, couldn't be made up. And it goes back to a luncheon that

Shirley and I had with some friends

and Alabama and we were talking

with the mother about her

strong-willed child and it was so much

fun talking to her. I later invited her to

come and be a guest on a program along with two other mothers and

one of the daughters. And it was a fun, insightful interaction

between us. And we began listening to that recording that

interaction last time. And we're going to continue hearing that conversation today and we will

conclude next time. Dr. we're talking

to so many parents right now who are right in the thick of this battle raising

a strong well-child. We know this because we recently heard

from one and we connected with a

young woman named Kara on our family

talk Facebook page. And here's what she said in her own words about how your book on this topic has really been

helping her. My husband, my family read Docker dot astrolabes, how we look back and I think we're ready,

we needed about you. They look back and

realize that we could tell he was drawn well

from that moment, actually probably

were not pregnant, but the moment you

were born in the heat, you put up there a lot, the fact couple years. And what lie at

the dinner table. He prayed that God would

make mommy a baby, though thou a mommy

wouldn't be able to tell him what

to do anymore. So greed, the strong

law of trial, because it, it, it, it above everything else and there's a lot

of tips and stuff, but it was it

really encouraging to know that Ezra wasn't born a

blank slate and I created the monster. I, they say he has become that God has a

plan for neutron. Well, the problem

with that, and that's our family

talk Facebook fan Kara, who's been raising her strong-willed

child with the help of your book

dad, a young mom, a new generation

coming in contact with your book that you

wrote decades ago, and it's been

completely redone. And she mentioned exactly what you said yesterday, that this is

something inherent. This is born into

the nature of a child and no parent

made them that way. I loved the way Akira ended that comment with the little giggles there. As you referred to her, child is a monster. I know she didn't

really mean that. You can feel that way

for a period of time. But what she said is true, not all behavior is caused. And despite the

laughter that I shared with the moms in the studio several

years ago. And there were some

tears as well. These mothers

explained what it's been like

raising a very, very tough, strong,

well-child. Each one of them had won. And it can be incredibly difficult and the easy

to blame yourself, that becomes a trap

you must avoid. But as we'll hear these ladies say

again and again, they wouldn't

change anything. Those children are who

God made them to be. So for those in our listening audience who have a strong well-child, don't get discouraged

by some of the things you hear

our panel member say, because there is, hope, there is and we can't

wait to get to it. So let's briefly introduce our guests again before

we hear from them. Joy Solomon has

been married for 36 years now. She has four

grown children. And we'll hear more about her

strong-willed child, Dana and just a moment. And also Kristen

Walker is a teacher. She too has been

married for 36 years, has four grown children, including her

daughter, Liz, who was a part

of this panel. And finally, Debora

merit was with us. She's quickly approaching her 40th wedding

anniversary, and she and her husband are enjoying their five

grandchildren. Well, why don't we

pick it up where we left off last time here now is Dr. James Dobson on this family talk broadcast. What do you say to

those who claim that children are born

as a blank slate, that they're all

the same at birth. And then the environment

comes along and stamps in different

temperaments. You have match or let's see how

many do we have? Well, we got ten kids represented among

the three of you. Every one of

them is unique. Every one of them is

different, right? Everyone? They, they are born with a personality. I truly believe that. And there is a

continuum from one extreme to the other regarding this

issue of the will, all away from

sweetness and light, that mean they just

loved the place. And that's really part of their nature is to

get that sense of satisfaction of

pleasing you all the way over to

the other side where the greatest thrill is to precipitate

a fight, right? That's right. I

believe firmly that a strong well-child

loved conflict. Just love the battle. And I don't love

the battle. It was a very difficult

experience for me because I'm

not trying to. I did a research project many years ago

on this subject. And many of the things that

we're talking about here were represented

in that study. But one of the things

that that that jumped out at me is where you have a compliant, loving mother who

would not have drain taking on her

parents in this way. And then you've

got this kid that just gets the greatest

fun out of fighting. As you said, you got

tears in here, I do it. Let me tell you a

story that's funny. We did this thing and

I don't know whether it came from adopts

and book or whatever, where we would

count to three, we would give the

children This is what we would

like you to do. You have to the count

of three to do it. And then we have

this little wooden spoon that we

would, you know, kind of swat them on there, which was hard for me. I'm not a banker, so it was really hard

for me to do that. This was a

situation where I'd taken Elizabeth and

I put her in her in her high chair and she was going

to be eating. I was giving a Cheerios and fun

things to eat. And I was working,

doing a fundraiser for some organization and I was just trying

to keep her busy. Well, at some point during the time

she says Mother, I want to eat

now 123 and me, I see scale and

you divide by 2.5. I had her dinner

ready for her and and that door. And he's and I said

John, it works. I said by by 2.5, I had done everything

that he said, yeah, that's what we need

is a compliant mother and a strong well-child. Joy. You saw that there's

a minute ago, yes. Do you ever cry

over this issue when your daughter

was Yeah. I cried a lot when

she was young, a quiet a lot more during

the teenage years. Those words,

dark, dark days. But especially as

a young child, because I am the second

born of a set of identical twins

and my twin sister as the dominant twin

error entire life. So I tell people that

we were growing up. She would say Run. I said how fast? She said jump. I

said how high. And I assumed

that my children would have more of my personality and

people that know me now because I am more outgoing and

very gregarious. They say, Oh, it's just like you and she isn't. I was so shy as a child and to please

my parents was my greatest role in

life to make them proud of me and and

to please them. I remember we went to a party once Davey

and I were married. And it ended up

where things that should not have

been exposed to me, even at that age was brought out and I panicked. He got out and I

said They could have arrested me and

call my parents. And David said,

we're married. They're not calling

your parents, but they would so

even at that age, to place my parents and then to have

this child, that the defiant spirit

was her goal in life, but a tremendous

heart, like you said. She had such a heart for the underdog and

such a love. What you say to them, they can turn back on

you in a heartbeat. Because we had we had

a phrase in the house that I refused to negotiate with a

four-year-old. I would say that

to her constantly. She would say, If you

don't do this not good. I refused to negotiate

with a four-year-old. This is the final answer. And one day at preschool, there was a young

boy that they were mainstreaming who

was handicapped. And Dana immediately

befriended this child more than anyone else in the class. She was drawn

to that child. And this other one

was, another boy was making fun

of this child. And she said, I'm only

going to warn you wants don't make

fun of him again, or I'm going to have

to beat you up. Well, he came back and

made fundable them again and Dinah said this was your last warning. Only give two warnings. Don't make fun

of him again. Well, he came back and before she was

through with him, she had drunk him up one side of the playground

and down the other. She had torn his shirt, she had torn

his shorts with him screening for

Dana to let him go. And the teachers

finally got a hold of her and said, Dana, did you not hear him asking you

to let him go? And she said, I gave

him two warnings. I refused to negotiate

with a four-year-old, came right back to me. So you see the same we will that's

expressed with a parent, is often expressed

with peers, which can be an advantage. Because these

youngsters are tough enough to do what

they want to do. Whether there's peer

pressure or not. Liz, your list

than doll is, tell me what's going

through your mind. This is actually

really fun for me just hearing other stories about kids who have had

to deal with this. And it's really

interesting to hear what parents have to say

about kids like me. And I've never thought about what parents have

had to go through. This. This gets

really personal, but that's why

we're all here. Do you ever see

your mom cry in a moment of

conflict like that? Hardly ever. She's

very not acquire. She's very stoic,

I think is what I what she's

very solid. I think she does

that for me because did you ever know you or hurting or up

setting or badly? I think deep down I did. But because she

never showed that to me in any way and

because she was, you know, I'm

going away and I was like, okay, fine. You know, and so let's

go at it, Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Kristen, you're not acquire Not

a whole lot. Not most anytime. Can you understand why the two ladies

here? Oh, yeah. Do you feel that

way? You just didn't express it this way? I was going to say

I didn't express it in tears necessarily. I probably we talked

about this earlier. We think that even

though none of us were

strong-willed before we had strong-willed

children, we have become

strong-willed and cope with in order

to cope with that. And I think I'm I'm pretty I've always wanted to

please people. I still do, but

I was bound and determined that

my children were not going to defeat

me in anything. And that that came really true with

Liz and we fought those battles and but

I felt like there were days and weeks and periods that that's all I did. My entire days were consumed with

disciplining her and trying to get her to follow the rules the

way we had laid them out and the other

children were not behaving

quite that way? Oh, no. No, not at all. You'd tell my oldest and my youngest not to do something and

they'd look up with you there with their

big blue eyes. They take umami, I'm sorry, and they'd never

do it again. At lizard say, let's go. This is something

that it's in the, in the genetic makeup

of not giving Dana. Great. How are you going to say Liz has

the mother's career, so I hope you have a

child just like you. And I hope all of yours and I have told

Dana that I hope neither she never

experiences because that will give me the strong-willed

grandchild would. So I'm looking at easier. Yeah. It is

interesting again that some parents have

40, 50, all stone. Well, you guys each had essentially one that was

really tough, right? Well, I I think that I have several

that are strong. Well, plus I have one that trained another one

to be as strong. Explain how she shout her brother to she

was strong enough to jump out of bed and then she would collect whatever was in the room and

put it in his crib. So he would step up on stuffed animals

or whatever was to jump out of bed and

then the two of them would be running loose

all over the house. I mean, literally, this This sounds

ridiculous, but we would find

them in the kitchen and the sink playing

with knives, opening the refrigerator, throwing things around. I got to the point where

the only way I could survive and know that

they could survive. Because literally

obedience was not my goal when they were when they were to keep survival, keeping him alive

was all I could do. I slept outside their door with a pillow and

a blank has you because they would

have to cross over me before they would

leave the room. Yes, I'm happy

you can protect the only way I

could protect them. And I prayed for them, you know, joy. I prayed. We laid hands on

them. We said, oh Lord, spanking

didn't work. I slept outside their tour in

Britain for them. So they didn't kill them when they were little. And that sounds extreme. Deborah, have you ever found yourself in

moments like that, what you face in

your hands saying, I am a total failure

as a mom idea? Because I wish I

could say that I was like these ladies and

just toe the line. I had four children, I had twins and I with tire just couldn't

find it and I couldn't find it in what I did when they were a little older and

The Lord is good. I trust the power prayer. I trust salvation. When my kids became

saved and they were baptized by their own choice, they all changed. They all became new

people in Christ in their

personalities change. And that happened

at about 14 or 15 for each one of them. And truly the largest ton, an incredible work, but I can't take any

responsibility for. I wish I had been stricter. I wish I'd been firmer, but I did what I could do. And the Lord put me

with four children, three of whom were very

difficult at times. Seen Debra, every one of us has inadequate

as apparent, we all have to

depend on the Lord. And it hit me as a PhD in child development when my daughter was three, that she would eventually make her own

choices in life and I could not absolutely guarantee where

she was gone because I saw

that there was something inside that I would not eventually at least would not control. And we come to

the point where even in our

greatest strength, we have to say, Lord, you've got

to help me here. That's what parenting

is all about. Jointed. You depend on the Lord that way, boy. Did I ever I remember

there were days when out of our phrase when David got home at

the end of the day, he wouldn't say

how was your day. He would say how

many spanking Did she get today? And he went even ask about our son because he knew. So it was a battle all day long, all day long. From the time she woke up until the time

she went to bad. And there are times

that you would sit and she would

be such an angel. She would be so caring

and loving and go. Okay. Okay. We're

making progress. We're making progress. And then 30 seconds later, one thing would trigger that strong will and she would be off and running. And there were

times, especially for stay at home moms, you feel like you

are such a failure. Feel like this is

a career I chose. It's like if I had started a small business and just watch invested all my money and watched it go wander. Here I am looking at this child that God

has entrusted to me, and I can't even

control Chris, and that was our

biggest thing. We're finding

consequences big enough to deter her will. And I mean, we had to go to the elders are

our church at 1. Because this cylinder

embarrassing most ads about time

she gets back. She would steal, she would take whatever

she wanted me to say. Liz, why are you taking that should say,

cuz I want it. And which was amazing

to me that a four or five-year-old could articulate the bottom line. I mean, because that

was the bottom line. I wanted it. I took it. She'd steal money from

the church or from the offering plate to buy a Coke from the

coke machine. Or she stole some of the decorations

out of the bathroom, just a little

cinnamon stick, but she wanted it,

therefore, she took it. And it got to the point

where we told her, you know, this

is bad enough. We spanked all we could do. We had to take her back and to Scripture and my husband sat down with her and said, this is what

Scripture says. You've got to obey

the authorities. And if you don't, we've got go to a

higher authority. And he went to the elders of our church

and asked a couple of them that had

children if they would be willing to sit

down with lists. And at that time, she was probably in kindergarten,

maybe first grade. And these two godly man sat down with her and

made her accountable, made her memorize

Scripture. But it got to the point

where she needed to know that there were higher we couldn't do it. And so we went to

the elders and list that had an impact

on you in extremely. What do you remember

about that? Just being embarrassed. I remember just

being thoroughly embarrassed and and having to be responsible for

what I did to someone else and having to fess up to that

responsibility. And I'm just until

probably second grade, I would I would take

things from my teachers. I would get into their desk if they

had food in there, take their food and I stole my kindergarten teachers earrings or something. And eventually my parents, you know, I was thinking

who cares I can get by parents, i'll

be disciplined. Who cares? And the discipline

didn't bother me. It was when they

said, okay, you have to go

to your teacher, you have to go to the

elders and you have to apologize for doing that. And that's why I

was like, oh, no, and it was embarrassing and humbling and I realized

what I had done. The discipline was not something deterred you

and any avoids me. Now I bet you just figured out a way to

get around her. Well, it was more like especially middle

school was like, well, I'll get disciplined

so that I can try to break

that discipline. And it's a

challenge for me. If I got granite

from the phone, I try to get on the

phone and computer. I tried again to

computer shows is something else to

be defined about. You have to figure

out where the kid is. You gotta get behind

the eyes. A child dies. You heard me say that

I get behind the eyes, the child see it the way the child sees and then you know how to respond

until you do that. You don't understand that? Liz, my my mother, knew that I was messing

around at school. I was just

discipline problem at school when I was

in the ninth grade. People have heard

this story before, but my mother figured

out how to get to me. She tell me you'll behave any way you

want to at school. And I'm not gonna

do anything about it unless they call me. But if they ever call me, i'm going to

school with you. And I'm sitting beside you and you'll be standing in the Hall of your France. I'm I'll be right

there and you will not be able to shake

me for a whole day. Men that shaped me

up in a big hurry. How do you go about it? I went to school,

that's what I did. I I've been a teacher

for ten years. I went to school

with my children. And I think part

of the reason I did it so that

I could watch them and I could be part of their lives in a

huge, huge way. My child got even with

me for doing that. This is, this is kind

of an interesting story because I can't believe that they would do this

kind of thing that Christina, I was so guilty, felt so guilty about going to school and going back to work because I was a real firm really

run at home mom, but I thought Really

I'm at school with them all day long. It's kinda like having

mom at all the time. She told all of the

parents that were very, very much at home mothers that because her

mother worked, she wasn't a good mom

and she she didn't have the time to make her

lunches for her. So somehow she manipulated getting a hot

lunch every day out of every nice woman

in the entire school. And I had everybody

watching me walk up and down the hall

like what right do you have to be here? And I thought,

wait a minute. And finally the teacher

called me in and said, we have a

little problem. Christina never

has lunch and so everybody feel cipher and they regarded

their lunches. I looked at her

and I looked at the teacher and I said, I will handle this. And I went to this child

and I said, honey, I pack six lunches

every night at 1030. Said where's your

lunch? She says mommy. She says, I learned that if I told them I

didn't have lunch, somebody would

provide me with a really nice hot lunch and I didn't have

to eat peanut butter and jelly anymore. She got even with

me for that matter, a vulnerability on the part of the parent becomes a very powerful weapon in the hands of the child. It's like a it's like

a military situation. You probe the line

for weaknesses. And if the parent

recoils in pain, when the child

says I hate you or go tells the neighbors

your abusing them, or who knows what

Deborah like, go what you experienced, then they've they've won the ultimate victory. Yeah, it is just

the way it is in some situations

and you just have to put an arm

around those parents. If you know, somebody

gone through this, don't you dare accuse them of being a bad parent. Pray for them, and

offer some advice and maybe by our folks, at least acknowledge those of you in the

listening audience, at least acknowledge that in this atmosphere that we live in today

where there are abused children

out there. The most terrifying

thing that can be said about a good parent is that they have abuse

their children. And in some kids are smart enough to

figure that out and to manipulate and to discipline a list

a couple of times. The military is very

careful about that. And as every parent knows, the commissary or

the grocery store is the place for a child

to stretch your check your limits and I

had to take her out of the commissary to discipline her,

wants to spank her. And boy, the looks I got were just like accusing me. And I knew if I

spanked are there, I would have

been a cue list. But so yeah, we

have to be ran. The world's changed even since there's some

people that feel any physical punishment is child abuse, it's not. But that's the way

our culture is go she would if she was

in trouble in the car and she knew

what was ahead of her, she would put both

hands on the window and she would scream at

people as they drove by, especially at red lights. Save me O say you

are getting no, no, where we're

not kidding. I'm thinking if a police pulls up there, they're

pulling me over. I'm going to have to

show them that this really is my

child. Save me. Oh goodness Ryan,

every parent of a strong well-child

right now is nodding their heads. They can completely

identify with the ladies we've

been listening to on this family

talk broadcast. That was Joy Solomon closing out our

time together. Deborah merit,

Kristen Walker, and Christina,

daughter Liz. We're also with us

that day and Liz's now married and has

two young children, hopefully, neither of which

are strong-willed. Hopefully. Her

husband Mike, who is also her high

school sweetheart, was actually diagnosed with cancer not too long ago. And we asked all of our listeners to be

in prayer for him. I hope there'll be prayers

going up even now, Ryan all over the

country for this family. For those of you who

are in the midst of raising a strong-willed

child yourself, like you heard these

moms describe today. We do have copies of Dr. James stops

and classic book, The New strong-willed child available here

at Family Talk. Request, those at Family Talk.org or when you

call us 8777326825. And maybe you just

need somebody to talk to someone to pray with you about

the struggles of raising your

own children. We are here for you

24 hours a day. Again, our number

is 87773268254. If you prefer to

connect with us online, please e-mail us at

Family Talk.org. Thanks so much

for listening and make sure to be with us tomorrow for the

final part of this conversation

right here on family talk with

Dr. James Dobson.

Listen: Living with the Strong Willed Child III

Welcome to family

talk with your host, psychologist and author

Dr. James Dobson. I'm Luann crane here with Ryan Dobson, lawyer. For the past

two days, we've been revisiting some of my dad's classic

parenting advice dealing with strong Will

children from his book, The New

strong-willed child. And as a way of

doing this, Ryan, we actually heard

the first two parts of a conversation

your dad had with three moms who were raising very strong

women children. And I gotta tell

you, I mean, I did enjoy some of

the humor and some of these crazy stories

that they shared. But this is serious stuff. It at anyone who

has a strong well-child will

tell you that. We've been talking

about some of the principles and

your dad's book, things like shaping our child's will without

breaking their spirit. That is so key in

raising children. They really is in

these ladies are speaking from

experience in all of our listeners can

learn from what they've seen and what they've gone through with their

own children. And that's one

of the best ways to learn about

these things. Well, let's get

to it quickly. Let me introduce our

guests. In studio. We're Deborah merit,

kristen Walker, and her daughter

lives along with joy Solomon, Doctor Dobbs, and

met these ladies, had a lunch one day and was just compelled

to bring them into the studio because he knew how much moms and dads everywhere would

really resonate with what they

had to say here. Now on this family

talk broadcast, my dad begins by

addressing one of our guests about her own strong-willed daughter. Joy. Lets go back

to your story. We began talking about the details of Dana's

or early childhood. You said that

after a period of time you began

praying for her, you and your

husband, David, laying hands on her at night when she was

asleep and praying that the Lord

would helped bring that will under subjection

and into control. And eventually

that happened. And you said for about

four or five years, she was able to control. It still has the will,

but able to control. Then she went into adolescence and

it got worse. And it was what we refer to as the

dark period. It was she was very

unhappy with herself. She was not happy with her personal

appearance. She was heavy child. She had very, very, very curly hair, which no one else in

our family has. And she was very

intelligent. So combined with

my personality, unhappy with my looks, unhappy with my

intelligence, she decided she was

going to change that and got into a group of acquaintances that said, well, your parents are still trying to

control you. Your parents don't really want you to be happy. Your parents want to

live your life for you. They don't want

you to leave home and found a young man, a boyfriend, who told her everything she

wanted to hear. You're wonderful, but your parents

don't understand you. And because she was so

needy and that area. She was totally addicted to that

relationship. And I think when

your child is addicted to a

relationship, yeah. Nobody's helping, you know, I would call these centers and counseling centers

and they would say, Well, just tell her

she can't see him. But there's really nothing we can do about that. And it was as

destructive or relationship as she could've been

involved along. Did it go on 2.5 years. And during that time,

what were you doing? Crying. Every day. School didn't matter. Sorry. Sorry. She lost her relationship with her family and with God. School didn't matter. Soccer didn't matter, which had been a tremendous

part of her life. The only thing

that she could see in her future was

that young man. And she totally

built her life, her future life around her total existence

depended on him. Were youth fasting

and praying during that that do

you ever try faster? We tried everything.

We tried fasting, we tried praying. We we were doing

the counseling. I was working with a

Christian outlet store and people would come in and wonderful people. And they would say, How

are you doing today? And I would say funneling, thanks, how're are you? And one of the problems

we had with Dana was lying constantly

about everything. And I was so convicted

in that moment. I thought I lie every day, every time I tell

somebody that we're doing wonderfully,

thanks. I'm lying. And I turned around and I looked at that

person and I said, I'm sorry, I'm not

trying to burden you, but I need to tell

you I'm not okay. I'm losing much joy. I'm losing much. Enlisted and need

your prayers. If you could just cover my child in my family with

your prayers. We had more people right. Turn named and we spelled

her name unusually. And they would say,

How do you spell band? And they would write

her name down. And these are people than I will probably never meet again on earth who were out there

praying for. And they said, I will

lift your child up. And I would estimate hundreds and

hundreds of people. And every time someone would ask me that question, how are you doing today? I'd say better, but

we're struggling. Let me tell you what

we're going through. I have a dear friend who was struggling with

similar situations. And when it was,

she came in one day and she said, well, maybe you shouldn't

share the hat because that might

embarrass Dana. And I said you

don't understand. I'm losing my child. I am I am so

frightened that something tragic

could happen before we turn her around. Before God gets a hold of her heart and we could

lose her forever. I didn't want to embarrass where that wasn't my goal, but I wanted to save her. There are so many

parents out there. I have been through this, are right there

at this time. Her crying with us today because they're experiencing

the same thing. Good, solid Christian

parents that would give their lives in a heartbeat for those kids. And they've done

everything they noted do and they can't fix it. They

can't fix it. But the Lord

still hears and answers prayer and joy. He was hearing

all that time. All of them. Every

one of them. The people that carried my child the Mercy Seat. I can never thank

them enough. There are no words because the relationship

we have with that child lamb is so much better than I ever imagined when

she was a child. That's why we're here

because there is hope. As a matter of

fact, the day that we met Joi you you took a little

piece paper out of your your purse. I don't think you knew you were going to

share that with no, I had no idea and just happened to have

it with you and you read it to me? Well, I didn't just happen. I'd take it

everywhere I go. I keep this with me

in a such a reminder. Okay. Dana is now in college who just

finished her first year. This was mid-year. This was their first

year away from ONE, Yes. And she wrote this

note? She did. Dear Mom, hey, there, this is going to

be a weird ladder. I've been doing a lot

of lifelong thinking. Mom, Sometimes I wonder

where I would be and what life would

be like if I hadn't come back

from the dark side, you know, I never thought that I would

consider my mother to be my best friend. But you are there are still some things that are

more Rachel subjects, which is another of

her good friends. But I would never

tried this closeness of gained with you for

anything in the world. You and dad used to say

that if I would just wait until it was time

for me to move out, he would be behind me 100%. Now I understand. I know that you and I were growing even when

I was at home, but I don't think

that I ever truly appreciated

you until layer, at least not as much as you deserve to be appreciated. I miss you every day. I mean, I thought that when I went to school that I would never want to

go home or even call. But I don't like

to go through the day without

talking to you. You know, I hope

that one day I will be a successful

IS Daddy. I want to be as keen

and respected in my field as he

is and he is. But you above all, had the hardest

profession of all. You had to raise me. Mama, I hope that

you understand what a gift God gave you. He gave you the will and the power to raise me. You showed me the

kinds of things that no college or

professional school could ever teach me. I can only pray that

one day God will make me the kind of mother you have banned and will always be to me. I just wanted to

take a minute to say thank you. And Allah upkeep

your baby girl. That's worth a

million bucks. Would you ever believe that you would get

a letter like that? And now, when you are in the never either

the band at 1. And you know, site and

sends his all Guards, his old daemons to

sit on your shoulder. And I would just

keep lifting up. The Bible quote

that you just used. Train up a child

in the way that he should go and

when he is old, he will not depart from it. And the little

daemon will go. Yeah, but Moses was

a 120 when he died. You don't have that

much time and you do just lie to you,

do just question. You know, that maybe she will come back to the world because of how you've

raised her in the, in the later years. But you wonder if you're

ever going to have that opportunity to have the relationship

with your child that maybe you have

with your mother? My mother was one

of my best friends and I thought I

was going to lose all those years.

Never would have it. Liz, Do you sense a

mother's heart here? Yes. That's what

you've heard today. Can you imagine

the depth of pain? Do you want to be

a mother someday? Absolutely. Yeah.

And can you imagine bringing a child

into the world as dedicated to that

baby as you will be, and then have this kind of conflict take place. I'm sure it'll

happen. I know your mom's going to be

the first one I run two is going to be

mom, would you do me? Would you do, you know. But I mean, seriously, every mother

that's going to be is almost becomes

her mother. And I do want to say

one thing just about these strong-willed

children is that they're raised so long with their families. And God has this amazing, amazing way of just saying, I want you and I want you to be

strong-willed for me. And I think probably at about the same time is when we had been

strong-willed for so long. And then God just

grabbed us and said, you know what, I want you and I want

you to love me. And instead of being

strong-willed for being rebellious and

for disobedience, be strong-willed for me. And I say remember that actually happened

and how those thoughts Absolutely. It was it was ok. Why? It was like I went out with a bunch of my friends and I was being stupid. And I come home and

then I just sat down and I just felt the

presence of God. And it was, I looked at myself

and I was like, my life has been pointless. I've spent all my life being strong-willed and wanting to win a battle. And then God

just grabbed me, like leave it behind. Chris In your

Bryan for Liz or to the eye limb

a lot like joy. We had family. We her grandparents

had been faithful, prayers, Rich and

I pray for her. And everybody we know we have not hidden from her the fact that she has been a strong well-child. And so it is not necessarily an

uncommon topic of conversation

among people that, that we have

dealt with this. And so yes, we've had a lot of people

praying as well. And, and I am really blessed in the fact

that I have seen what God can do and

still have time with my daughter to build the relationship that

every parent wants. So I do cry. Whatever you are praying to,

I'm sure yet. And we had a

similar experience last summer because they

had just gone crazy. I think she had a

relationship with somebody that I didn't

even know about. It wasn't probably

as deep as we're Dana went,

but it was wrong. And she was

hurting from that. And she was talking

to her sister, and she came

home and she was rebellious and angry

with me and we I listened to her

scream at me until about two o'clock in the morning for no reason. And all of a sudden it was like the Holy Spirit came over her and she started repeating

things that I would have said to her

If I had been talking. And she says Mom, she says, I will fight a battle all the way because I want to when she says don't ever be scared to put

boundaries in my way, she says, I need rules, I need boundaries and I respect everything

you've done to put those in my way. His anatomy. And she

said something out. She says, I know

who I am in God. And I know that I will

make right choices. She says, I've

had a bad year. I'm going to change

this next year. And she has she's a different

person this year. But she says you have

trained me well. You have given me

the stability of a Christian school in a church and a

Christian family. She says, I will

choose wisely. I want to live my life because you've

modeled for me, which I'm telling you

there is hope here. That's the reason I wanted to do this program. We're not here to be mown. The struggles of parenting. We're here to talk

about getting hold of that relationship with the Lord and and calling

on him to help you in the difficult

times I want to ask you all are

very key question. You know, the

scripture says that children are blessing

from the Lord. Do you still feel that way? Even in those

situations where there is a struggle? Was it worth it? You know, you've invested years and years

in the skids. Tell me if it is

still a blessing. Your children

are a treasure. I told my children

when they were young. I don't think I ever said you're a gift from God, specifically,

over and over. But my phrase was, he are a treasure. And for a while, Dana forgot that or

I don't think she believed and I think in her heart she

was hurting too. She was hurting and

she didn't believe it. And now I think she

is to the point where she understands she truly is a treasure to us. The strong willed

that she hands. The part of that

that is good. I think it will take

her foreign live. She wants to be

an attorney. I think it'll be a list because she'll

argue with a rock. You're not really a wrong. What made you think

you're a rot your compressed air and

you're not a rock. She would argue, as

long as the day is long and the Lord is going to use it and

I believe he will. I believe he

certainly will. And yes, there are times that I wish we had not experienced what

we experienced. But would I ask for

everything to go away now because I will never

take for granted. That my children are

going to be obedient, that my children

are going to do the things that

I want them to do, that my children are just automatically going to want the relationship with me and the fact that

we have them now. I am so blessed. How about the other two worth every minute,

every battle, every ounce of energy

that I put into it, I would never never

trade anything. Deborah, when I

named my children, one of their names

means house of God. One means great

woman of God and to mean precious

gift of God. So I did tell them

that they were gifts. I didn't know if I could have children and they were all tremendous miracles

and blessings. Absolutely, absolutely every

minute is worth it. Even the conflicts. Because I know that God is sufficient and

I know he's able, and I know he's going

to use them mightily. You know, anybody

can raise an easy good it's duct. So there are some that are tougher

than others. And you need to

have that attitude. The Lord gave me this

child for a purpose. I'm to mold and shape

this youngster and prepare him or her for a life of

service to him. I'm not going to let Satan and have that will. And I'm up to the task. I'm going to make it with what the Lord's help. I'm going to make it you're fighting to save the

child, right Lady? Absolutely. That's

what you are doing. You are not going to let Satan have that good. And it is cowardly to give up your hang in there and you do

what's right. Even when the youngster

looks at you, you've stayed up half the night when

they're sick. You've done

everything he could to clothe and care

for this kid. He or she luxury in

the eye and says, I hate you, I hate you.

Get out of my life. It's the temptation to be cowardly and a moment like that, this is great, but you gotta

keep your courage and not yielded to the temptation to give it back in

the same measure, we were at home

one day out on the deck and we were

just sitting there. And she said, Dana said, Why did you never

give up NSSet? Because you're a tray. Sure. God gave to us. We would never, I can't imagine that things could have gotten a lot worse, but they could

still go downhill. And I said I could never

have given up on me. And she said a lot

of people would. And I said, Not if they believed in the

power of God and the power of

prayer because I wasn't sure how soon

it was going to be, but I've always believed that you would come back. Hope and faith to measure what

kept many strong YS is your faith. How do parents make it who don't have

I don't know, and I don't know

how parents make it without supportive

husbands, wives. Davey said before

we came in, he said, if you have

a strong Will child, it takes a

strong-willed mother and a strong-willed

father to survive, does and I feel it. Badly for those

single mothers out trying to handle

this on their own. But cause that

the deeper voice in the presence of a man is just made for those kind

of situations. What Dana shared a story, not while she was just

home for two weeks between spring and summer semester and she

said, you know, I remember one night

it was really, really bad and there was a big fight

and she said, you know, I was

just used to you crying because you

do it all the time. I am a crier. I am a very emotional

person and she said, I may daddy cry. That got to her

father's tiers. We're we're still Deborah. What advice do you have for the mother who's out there feeling what you were feeling when

your kids are small? Well, I think

what I'm going to do is quote your book. I think it's page 24 of the strong

Littlechild. You said, pick your

battles when decisively. Take two aspirin and

call me in the morning. Well, I think they all them but don't call me. I think it I think I lived on your broadcasts when my children were little. I used to wash my floors and pick up the food

that had been thrown on the floor while

they were eating and I would sob through

the broadcasts, but it helped me because I knew there were other

people struggling. I knew that God was

in control and I knew there were people out there that understood. Now I go to people

like Christa and because we share

an office together and we talk about our

struggle daughters and we pray for you

very regularly. And we watch

you and we love you and we nurture

you together. I still have people regularly that I meet on the street who

will come up to me. I don't know

them from Adam. And that'll hugged me

and some cry and say, You've got me through the toughest

part of my life. But that's what

we're here for. Had a reporter here

yesterday talking about this ministry

and she said, I don't know that

she's a Christian. I didn't have

any indication that what she was. But she said to me,

Why don't you do this? You've said that you care about all those

people out there. Why we invited

hundreds of thousands of people every month to bring their

troubles here. Why do you put

yourself through this? And I said, this is the essence of my

Christian faith. Jesus says, in as much as you do it under

the least of these, my brother's, she'd

do it under me. And when you put an arm around a mom

out there who's depressed and,

and discouraged, hopeless to express

this kind of, of expectation for the future and

this kind of hope. It gives me a great

deal of satisfaction. And as I talked, she got big tears

in her eyes. And Deborah, I'm pleased that

you were touched by this ministry at a time when you needed it. Adolescences tough. Anyway, you slice it. But their answers, and of course the

Lord, is there. Anything else you all

want to share lives? Any last thing

you want to say? I just want to type a that strongly children grow up and they mature

and they learn. And, and God does do

that for them, I think. And, and even on our

being strong-willed, we are, we are in God's eyes and

you know what? You don't make a great mom. You are, you're going

to make a great, I can just see it very bright and

very dedicated. And the fact that

you've landed on your feet this early

is a very good sire. And I trust that you have a good year in school

next year and get on into in the college

and write your mom and e-mail will make her

cry, not acquire habits. You get maker guy. Thank you, ladies

for being with us. It's been wonderful to have a chance to talk to you

for these three days. Thank you for sharing

from your heart in joy, you brought a

Bible with you that's been your main state have and the others

that have yet to see. Well, I'll come

back and see us when you've got grandkids that

are strong-willed. We'll talk about

it some more. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. And we hear that list actually is a wonderful mom to her

to little children. Just as Doctor Dobbs

and had predicted. Ryan, I hope listeners have found this

three-day series on raising strong-willed

children to be extremely practical

for their families. And our thanks, go out

to Kristen Walker, Joy Solomon, and

Deborah merit. And we have so enjoyed their stories and all the things

they've shared. And we trust that it's

provided some help and hope for

struggling parents. While I have no doubt

that it has Ryan, if you would like

to receive a CD of this three-day

series or even a copy of Doctorate opsins

bestselling book, The New

strong-willed child. You can find that at Family Talk.org or ask about it when you give us a call, 87773268 to five, and we appreciate you

requesting that book from us instead of going

somewhere else for it. Your donations will help us continue to bring

practical advice to help your family in that

number one last time, 8777326825. Thanks so much

for listening. Be sure to join us tomorrow for a brand new edition of family talk with Dr. James Dobson, will

see you then.

Listen: Bullying: How to See Your Way through the Storm

Welcome to another

edition of Dr. James Dobson

Family Talk. I'm Ryan Dobson and my dad is out of

the office today, so we're going to be hearing a recorded message from our pediatrician

in residence, DR. MEG maker, who was also a part of

our broadcast team. And here with me today. And the topic at

hand, doctor maker is a heated one for sure. So let's dive

right into it. It is a heated problem. Ryan and our schools

all across the country. That's why I decided to sit down with three

guests while I was in Michigan to gain some

more perspective and insight into how to stop this growing epidemic. Well, I don't wanna give away what

you're gonna be discussing because

we'll hear more about it in

just a moment. So let's jump

right in now is we hear from Dr. Meg maker with her guests here on this family talk

broad guest. We have a wonderful

show today so you cannot

turn that dial. We're gonna be

talking about a very important

subject here. We're going to be

talking about bullying, but we're not going

to be talking about just the problem

of bullying. We're gonna be

talking about a solution that one high school counselor

in Traverse City, Michigan found

and it's working. So if you're a

parent or a student, or a principle or a

high school counselor, you cannot miss this

show. In studio. I have three

wonderful guests. I have Robin Flannery, who is a single mom

to three great kids. Most importantly,

mom to Jeremy, who is in studio

with us to Robin, is a single mom who

very sadly was widowed seven years ago and is currently raising

her kids, 171412. I have to the

other side of me, Jeremy Flannery, who

is 17 years old. He's a junior at Saint

Francis High School and a very articulate

young man. And he's going to be

talking to us today about what it feels like to go through grade school and junior high and high

school being bullied. And my final guest is

Mrs. Beth May Day, who is a high

school counselor here at Trevor

City, Michigan. And she came up with a very creative and

successful solution to bullying and her school. Welcome everybody.

Thank you. Haven't, uh, thank

you for coming. Robin, let's

start with you. Seven years ago, your life took a

dramatic turn. Can you tell us about what happened in your

life seven years ago? Yes. I count actually a little bit before that will go eight years ago, DRY was homeschooling

my three children and just moved into a

home that we had built. And my husband was

diagnosed with cancer, very short-lived,

very sudden. He was diagnosed in January and less than nine months later,

he passed away. And how would you wear your children at that time? He died two days before Jeremy's tenth birthday and the girls were

75 at the time. Wow. And Jeremy is the oldest of

three children. You're the only

son? Yes. And you have two younger sisters? Yeah. Yep. So do you remember that time

pretty clearly? Yeah. Yeah. I remember my mom coming into

the bedroom I was sleeping in in It was sort of Sonic is a time for

school already, I think in so I knew something was

up because she had brought AJ and SHA-1 because they were in

my parents bedroom. And then a little

while later we found out that

he had passed. And I would like to tell our listeners they

can't seen studio, but you have a very special jacket with you

here, don't you? What is the jacket

draped over your tear? My dad's flight jacket. My dad was a Navy

helicopter pilots. And so and wear the jacket to school and elsewhere. It's fabulous. Robin. After Aaron passed, life got harder for you. Life got harder not

just as a single mom, but now you're

grieving widow and you have three

grieving children. And school was pretty tough, particularly

for Jeremy. Can you tell us what

the following years were like for Jeremy

and school and for you as a mom

watching him go through school? Yes, I can. The term

heartbreaking comes to mind and I will try to get through this without without tears. Is that yeah, it's just us. When Jeremy went

back to school, gets laid off a VM, his dad had just died, so they were pretty good with them

at that point. But it didn't take long

for it to to resume. So in fifth grade, kids just started

getting nasty again. And so not only were they verbally

attacking him, but went from

verbal to physical. Mm, at this point, there is a lot

more attention in the media

about bullying. And we had a new

principal who, for lack of a better term, thought she

cornered the market on how to handle

the bullying issue. Hm, so here they're focusing, focusing

on bullying. But what it looks like, what does a

bully look like? What does the

victim look like? But then there were

no consequences. And so the victim is

told to report it, which, Okay, that's great. They report it. They

become the tattletale. They might come

the bigger victim, you're still no

consequences. So is it escalated as his mom I kept

going and Jeremy went in and nothing was done to the point

where it got physical. I told Jeremy he

had permission to defend himself and then you can't start a fight, but if somebody's

picking on you, you do have a right

to defend yourself. So I gave him

permission to at least push kids down and then go get the help he needed. Man, when I went into the school and

informed them of that, I was told he was not

allowed to do that and that that the kids

that were bowing him were troubled

and that there was nothing they

could do about it. And Jeremy, this is fifth, sixth grade, you

remember being bullied in the

fifth, sixth grade. You remember what life

was like at school? Yes. New kids were coming in to the school

fifth grade and they were

pretty mean and some people that

were my friends started bullying as well. So you would have friends, a Bollywood come along, start picking on you, and then your friends would jump on board

with the bully? Yes. And I think

that happens pretty frequently,

don't you? Yeah. Was there ever

a time when you did push somebody back and say, Hey, leave me alone? Yes. A few times. I don't remember

much of it, but I do remember I

did defend myself, which was after my

mom said, Okay, if you're being

attacked physically, you have a right to

defend yourself. Now Robin, the bullying went on year after year, and this must have

been heartbreaking. As a mom, you've

lost your husband, you're raising

your children, your only son who dearly loved his dad doesn't have his

dad anymore. And now school is not

a safe place to be. Take us into high school because things really

came to a head. Sophomore year didn't

day? Yes, they did. By eighth grade, we found a new school system, transition them in and it worked well for

about half a year. So we get through

middle school, he goes up to

the high school and Jeremy blesses

heart didn't necessarily open up with me about everything

that was going on because I am a

single parent and carrying a load

for three kids. He didn't want to

worry me anymore. That's the kinda

guy Jeremy is. I mean, he's extraordinary. Jeremy, you told me at 1, you had a lunch experience. You went again

lunch from what saw tell us about

that. What happened? Yeah. During

the latter part of sophomore year that I was part of the

robotics team. And so this was

the one time that most of the team had lunch at the same time I

did because it's based on Yoram there

at our teacher. And so I decide, oh, finally a group of kids for me to sit with. But every time I'd be at the checkout for my food, see somebody move my stuff from the chair that I had it at and move it

to a different table. And then one day a family confronted him and said, sorry Jamie, there's

no more chairs. And there's plenty of open tables where

you could easily have grabbed a chair and asked people

to the slider, will that fit them in? A known lead safe until like launch was about over. A kid said sorry that he's being

mean and stuff. But once they end up waiting was

occurring, Jeremy, we all know what it

feels like to have people be mean and to feel really crummy

about life. What is it like one year? A lunch room and somebody moves your stuff

to another table. What does that make

you feel like? Like I'm like I'm trash, like the unwanted

piece of the banana. Yeah. Like yeah. Yeah. So would you ever go to any other students, friends

at school? Did you have any

if close friends you could go to

and say, you know, people are just

so mean to me, I can't take this anymore. There was some people that I thought

were friends, but everything that was going on in the

lunchroom made me realize they weren't really my friends because then nobody

nobody at school. Yeah, Robin, that's just must have been

heartbreaking for you. And I want to say things came to a head

this past spring. Jeremy didn't want

to go to school. He wanted to be

homeschooled for his junior year

in high school. How sad is that?

So this summer, you said something

needs to happen. Tell us what life was

like this past summer between his sophomore and junior in high school, we did a family reunion and Jeremy has a lot

of cousins his age. I saw a kid coming alive with a peer group that

I hadn't seen before. And after we left

that reunion, he literally was begging me to consider moving

closer to family, which wasn't

that easy to do. And at that point,

even though I have three children, I had to look at Jeremy Not only being the oldest, but the one who was in the most

critical need. I was at that point

that I was about to do anything that I

needed to do, move them across, kind

of move them across. Contrary, we literally I called my sister

one day and I said, are coming in a

couple of days, we need to come

check this out and Jeremy wanted to go, his cousins went to a

school in Connecticut. We arrived and it was

pretty clear that that wasn't our answer.

Jeremy agreed. Once we got there, we all agreed as a family that just probably wasn't

the best decision. And that was the

heartbreak is when I started talking to him before we made the

trip to Connecticut, I asked him if he was

looking forward to school and he

said yes and no. Why don't I asked why the now he said it's hard to go to a school where

everybody hates you. And literally, as

a mom, you know, we're all moms

here, you know, the heartbreak to hear

your child say that. So now we're returning and I'm we're looking

for answers. And I started just telling

them look at it as a job that you're

punching a time clock and you only have

two more years, which would have

given them the tools. But how sad you're in high school is

supposed to be the prime. And this was the worst

part of his life, was going to school. And how do you get

him through that? And I work with

somebody who suggested St. Francis High School here in Traverse, which don't know why that just never crossed

my radar before. You think you're on

your path doing a certain because

God loves secrets. He says, how

men praying and I will show you

great secrets. And did he ever did? He did, he did. And I will sing

the praises of bath and the staff and the students of

the school because, you know the whole

bowling issue, the way it's addressed is you're not going

to stop a bully just with consequences. If somebody wants to bully, they're gonna do it. And you're not going

to stop a bully just by explaining what it is and giving

them a choice. The only way you

are going to stop bullying is to have their peer groups

step up and say, put the power in

those other kids? Yeah. Beth made a Yeah. You are the

school counselor at St. Francis high school. What did you think when robin Flannery marched into the halls of St.

Francis and said, OK, enough enough

for my child, I need a new place to be. Tell us what that

was like for you. Well, it was a

interesting conversation because Robin comes in and is very emotional and anxious,

this going to work. And she just put her

heart out there. And she said, I'm just

scared for my son. But who really blew me away was jeremy, Sorry Robin. That's OK though. And I tend to

be could focus. So I, me, Jeremy and

I instantly thought, let us thinking, cool kid, I like this kid. And I did think, I think Jeremy can make

us a better school. And so my heart went out to both of

them and, you know, and I suggested

they go home and pray about it and see if Saint Francis high schools where

they need to be. And then Robin called

and said, yes, I think St. Francis

is where we want to send me want us and Jeremy. And at that point, did you believe there was something that you could do? I mean, because you'd

seen bullying before. So what was your approach? What did you do?

Well, first of all, Dr. making, you know, we are a faith

filled school. Yes. And so from

kindergarten to grade 12, we're encouraging, fostering teaching that relationship with

Jesus Christ. And. We all know when you have a heart

for Jesus Christ, compassion does

come easier. Yes. Service is

more frequent. Yes. So we know that in our kids

isn't every child. And so am I asked Robin to bring

Jeremy a day later, Gray and I went gotta schedule and I went to each of his classes. And I started

with Scripture. I started with

Matthew twenty five, thirty five and thirty six. I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty. You gave me

something to drink. I was a stranger and

you welcomed me. And let that set a little bit for

my students. And then I kinda talked about Jeremy a

little bit and I said we're getting

this great kid who has had it

really tough. And he's been picked

upon and he's been school has not

been enjoyable for him. And we talked a little bit. I asked the kid, they said, when does bullying happen? Does it happen

if I'm a teacher collectively, the

classes would say no, I know it's done

in private, it's done in the bathroom, it's done in the cafeteria, it's done in the

locker rooms, is done in the hallways. So the adults aren't

going to be around. And sometimes I

think everyone looks at the teachers

and say fix it, fix it, fix it. The teachers aren't the

ones seeing exactly. And so I asked

the kids as well, who who's going to

fix the problem? And the students

collectively in each class, I went to seven different

classes that will be have to Moraine. They're the ones that

have to do it yet. So I said, we know we're going to

get him tomorrow. He's come into our

school tomorrow. Who in this class

is going to make sure that this is a good experience

for Jeremy. And within two minutes, the entire class had

their hands raised. They just committed to, you know, he's one of us. We're going to

watch out for him. But what I did see was

that when there was a class of 20 kids

raising their hands, that gave them power, encourage to know they're holding each other

accountable. But gave them cards to say, yes, we're going

to do that. Teenagers love a

good challenge, I don't thing. And we sell them so short. And unfortunately,

I think one of the reasons

that we have not gotten control bullying as we bullies all the power. And we say to kids

individually, a student may not stand up. But when you say

Will you and will you become a force? Absolutely. And you give a teenager cause and

they're all about it. And I think you also

gave them power. I mean, you

didn't say, Okay, you can go beat

somebody up, right? You came very close, right? I do like defending

those that maybe can't defend

themselves actually. And I do think that's what Jesus would want us to do. What do you think

he'd say, you know, don't don't mess with

my I don't mess up my little sheep. It'll

mess with my children. And, and that's what I was asking my students

to do to have that heart of

compassion and and empower them to

to welcome him. And I believe they

have right, Jeremy? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Robin, you tell me a story and we just need

to share this with our listeners after

Jeremy lost it, dad, you were very worried about him not being able to experience the

moments in life that sons usually get to experience

with their dead. Some key things

like, you know, how to shave, how to ask a girl out,

how to tie a tie? The neck tie the neck. Necktie story. Yes.

But I'm ties story. And this is huge.

Neckties will always be a visual for me. I'll back it up in eighth grade and

I will probably get teary here because it always makes me cry. Jeremy was part of the band and had

to do a concert. And although I had asked a few people for help on teaching Jeremy how to tie a neck tie. We didn't have any takers. And so I had to go and buy him a neck tie, which

I was dreading. And I went to Coles and had to buy

him a clip Thai. And I remember

standing in the store crying because it

wasn't about the tie, was not having a

dad to teach him. And I actually had a

couple people say, look it up on YouTube. And in Watson

about learning it, it was the

emotional impact. And I remember

Jeremy looking at me going, it's okay, mom. But I knew it wasn't I knew he was

already a target. Yeah. And kids can be mean even when it

comes to necktie. So let's fast forward

to Saint Francis. And Jeremy is now part

of the football team. And he comes out and

tells me I'm part of the team and I have to wear a uniform and I'm thinking, what is the uniform?

It's a necktie. But there was something different about

at this time. I knew I've had the whole

administration at St. Francis come up to me and asked me about Jeremy, I've had the

principle come up and say your son will

be taken care of. And I felt that

he went and asked Mr. shuttle if

he would help him with a necktie,

not a clip on. None of them are on the

bottom in real time. So one once I knew that he had somebody who was

going to help them, I could go out

and buy the tie and then I ended up coming home with

four because they were all pretty cool. Oh, sorry. Jeremy. I really like

that purple tie. Yeah. Good verbal day. I did pretty good. So he went into the school and not only did he have the

principle helping them, he had one of his teachers come up to help them. So he's walking

out proudly, but that neck

tie on and what that did for me as a mom. It's invaluable

when people want to know how they can

impact lives. It's as simple

as the neck tie. At this point, knowing

that we've got help, knowing that people

genuinely care, we decided to take on

the YouTube video. So we were side-by-side trying to figure out how to time Jeremy can

tie is on tonight. You know, I think that what's so cool

about the story? Well, there are many

things that are just so remarkable

about the story. Is God's provision. God is the Father and God wanted Jeremy to know

how to tide necktie. When is when his dad and he couldn't be

here because your dad's up in heaven

with God isn't II. But that you had support on somebody

different levels. Beth, what have you

seen around school? Have you seen any changes in the junior class

at Saint Francis? I think

collectively, we are a better school because

Jeremy's there. I think it it opens our

eyes and we all get comfortable and

our routines and our cliques

in our groups. And it opened our eyes to be uncomfortable

with bullying, to be uncomfortable

when somebody is picked on,

neglected, demeaned. But it's always

a lesson that we need to keep hearing. It's something we need

to keep practicing. And I wanted to

point out to, you know, Jeremy is the

tip of the iceberg. You know, Jeremy is

the representation of tens, if not hundreds of

thousands of students across the country who are experiencing

anything from being shoved and

pushed and physically. Abused at school to a

lot of verbal abuse, which is Robin said

can be even more devastating because

every day, every day, every day they're

hammered and they feel as though they're nothing and they're alone and they

don't have a friend. Beth, I want you to talk to the high school

teachers out there. I want you to talk

to the principles of school counselors. What do they need to do to get bullying under control in their schools? Well, first of all, it's a benefit when you

know your students. Yeah. So, so getting to know your students well, so they do feel comfortable to talk with you so you can find a mentor or a peer or help them get

into a peer group. But we do have to

empower the quiet kids. Yeah. Power, small kids, the large kids,

the noisy kids, the shy kids to say, Everyone is important

and everybody has value and everybody

has worth. And we're not going to put up with somebody

being mean. Typically a bully is

one or two kids exam, not a school, one or

Turkey, you know, that's that's

I think one of the dangers that

we're in right now is that we

focus on the bully. We talk about the

Billy as Robin said, me go, oh, well

what can we do? They're having a hard

life. Well, too bad. It's not an excuse to go and be mean to other kids. So why is it that

the nice kids don't stand up for

other kids? It's hard. It's hard if you're

by yourself, it's hard if you're alone and to have the

courage to do that. And so if the

numbers are there, the group is

there, they hold each other accountable. Our kids made a commitment. Now he's a member of

our St. Francis family. We are happy he's here. We're going to make sure he's happy he's here. And collectively

as a group, they said we will

not let this happen. So they also hold each

other accountable too, to make sure he's safe. Yeah. And so you're really using positive

peer pressure? Absolutely. You see

you see heart changes, heart change, and

that's what's, And that's what's cool. So that's when I say

He makes us better. It's because he has opened our hearts in our eyes to two other kids

who maybe hurting. Just to be, to be aware

of our own actions. Is this, are these actions hurtful or helpful, or they loving or

are they cruel? And so it's an eye

opener for everybody. So it's a blessing

that he's there. Jeremy, if there are any kids out

there listening, who are experienced being bullied at

school, you know, eighth-grade, seventh

grade, freshman, what would you

want to tell them? You'll always have

somebody the tone, even if you're in my situation where

your dad dies and you can't go to

him and you don't want to worry. Your mom. Go to or anyway. And Robin, what would

you want to say to the mothers out

there who are struggling and

worrying about their sons or daughters

being bullied. Don't back down,

don't back down. And, you know,

what Beth and the whole

administration and the whole school has done doesn't just have to happen in a Catholic

school yeah. Or faith-based school. It can happen anywhere. You have to be

that advocate for your child because

ultimately, who else is going to do it? If you are that

voice for them, it takes the pressure off that child to have to be the voice and

don't let it go because your

child's welfare is, is really at risk. And the reality is,

the majority of kids, the majority of teachers, majority of

principles out there, Christian or not, want

better for our kids. But we have, we have really become

wimps and we go, well what can we do

nothing we can do it. There's a whole

lot we can do. And I just really

want to thank each and every

one of you for being here today

and welcome. You. Just use fabulous

Beth kudos to you. And Robin Flannery. Thank you so much for being here and thanks

for having me. What an uplifting way to in this family talk

broadcast with guests Robin and Jeremy Flannery and Beth made a highlight what Robert had to say Dr. maker, don't back down. And to parents

if you've got kids in grade school

or high school, even college, who are struggling

with bullying, please get in

contact with us. I mean, right away, we can get you connected with a counseling referral in your area immediately. Or if you just

need someone to pray with or provide you with adequate direction on how to handle

that situation? We're here for you?

Yes, that's right. We want to be here

for you and you can find it online at Dr. James Dobson.org or when you call us at 877 7326825, again, that numbers

8777326825. Thanks so much for joining us today for this topic. We hope you'll

return next time for an inquisitive

discussion on roles in the home and

what that looks like. That's next time on Dr. James Dobson Family Talk.

Listen: Raising Kids Right I

Thanks for stopping by for another edition of Dr. James Dobson Family Talk. I'm Ryan Dobson

here with our host, psychologist and

bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson and dad to kick off

today's broadcast, we have a very

exciting announcement. It is exciting, ryan, Even though I've mentioned at a time or two and for the benefit of those who were not listening

at that time, let me say, shame on you. Dr. Meg maker,

a pediatrician, has joined our team

here at Family Talk. And she is in private practice in

Northern Michigan with her husband who is a fellow pediatrician

and an internist. And Dr. beaker is

going to be commuting when needed from

Northern Michigan here to Colorado Springs, which is quite a price for her to pay physically. But she cares about

this ministry. And I am delighted

to have or have great respect for her and admiration for the

things she's done. Not only being

a pediatrician, but she is the author of many books on parenting, including my favorite strong father's

strong daughters, and a number of other

books which I'm sure we'll talk about

from time to time. So let me say it again. May say it again. I want to make sure

everybody understands. Dr. MEG maker is now our physician

in resonance and a member of our

broadcast team here at Family Talk and God brought her to us,

so absolutely. And you can just feel

the excitement among our staff and we know

dr. Makers coming in. She is such a light to the office and now she can be a light to our

listeners as well. And we're going to

start that right away with today's program

by listening to a message from Dr. Mika about raising kids. Our world today is a fast-paced, self

obsessed one. Can seem impossible to

raise godly children. So Dr. makers

here to provide some encouragement and

advice for parents. Well, I know our

listeners are really going to enjoy

hearing Dr. maker. I was there when she

gave this presentation. I think you were too. I was RIAA and tasks

that we were out in California and we brought a group together. And Dr. maker is a good

speaker and she is also very knowledgeable about her subject matter, both medicine and

child rearing. She's the mother

of four children. Just adder first

grandchild recently. But you know, there's

so many blogs and books that you read on raising children are really not

very good care, frankly, they have

bad advice in many Him or not based on the principles

in God's Word. In some have bad medical

information in it too. You can trust what

Dr. maker has to say. And she's going

to share that and show you that today with the recorded

presentation that she made just a

few months ago. Well, let's

welcome Dr. maker to our team by

listening into this wonderful

message from her on Dr. James Dobson,

Family Talk. Many years ago as

a pediatrician, I worked with a very wise, older pediatrician and I was young and fresh

out of the gate and anxious to do the

very best I could for kids in my practice. And he looked at me

and he sort of looked a little bit like Marcus

Welby and he said, Let me tell you something. If you want to do

anything good for kids, you want to make

an impact that substantial on their lives. Get to their parents. If you take care

of parents, you don't have to

worry about the kids. And I thought, well, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you. But I have all this fresh training in the

front of my head, so I'll tuck that in

the back somewhere. And sure enough,

over the years, I learned in the

practicing pediatrics that nothing could be more true that if you can really incurred an

undergird parents, you don't have to

worry about the kids. And that goes to their

emotional health, their psychological health, their spiritual health, and even their

physical health. So a lot of the

work that I do, I do teach a lot of abstinence to teens

and I go around the country and I

talked to scores of hundreds of teenagers about sex and big auditoriums. And it's a lot of fun,

believe it or not, it's a lot of fun. And we giggle and laugh. And it's kind of funny if I go to a venue like that and then I'm

going to talk to all the kids that day. Tons of kids come

out and they ask all sorts of questions

because our kids, you know, bombarded with so many sexual messages. And then you'll plan an

event for the evening where all the parents

of those kids are come. How many parents

to think show up? Not very many. Because sex and parents and their kids is not

something that is a good connection because parents are little bit queasy about talking to their kids about

things like sex. But that's the most

important work I do really is not go into the kids and

encouraging them, but encouraging

their parents. So what I'd like to talk to you today a little bit is just touchdown on where parents in our culture are. And some of the shifts

that I've seen, I've been doing

this about 24 years now and I kind of consider myself

a professional listener, if you will. Because if you listen very carefully to kids

and their parents, you'll learn so much about what's wrong

in their lives and usually what's wrong or the most simple,

simple sayings. And when I was preparing for today thinking about well written a lot of books on how to discipline

your kids, sugars spank or should

you do timeouts? You know, how early should they be and when do you have this talk and how do you teach kids

your virtues? And I was, I was a, something a little

bit of frustration because I can tell parents how to do that and encouraged parents

how to do that. But if they do that, but they're not starting at the right spot in their parenting.

It doesn't work. So I found myself as I was getting

ready to thinking about what I was going

to talk about today is having to back up and back up and

back up and say, wait a minute,

as a group of people whose hearts are drawn to helping

the family. And the next 304050

years, God willing. We need to back up a

little bit too and say maybe what's

going wrong with parents in

America is not that they don't have

the desire to raise good kids because

certainly they do. Never before have

we had parents so interested and doing a great job for the kids. But the problem is many

of those parents are starting from

the wrong place. And where is that place that they're

starting from? And where does that,

where should it be? Well, scripture

tells us right off the bat Proverbs 910 says, fear of the Lord. Fear of the Lord is the

beginning of wisdom and knowledge of

the holy one. Understanding

fear of the Lord is the beginning of

being a wise parent. So maybe parents or lacking wisdom today and

our culture because they don't have

appropriate fear of the Lord. Could that be? And then we go on

to Proverbs 17, The fear of the Lord is the beginning

of knowledge. So if we want to bring

a wisdom and knowledge and understanding

to parents across America and

across the world. We must get them to the place

where they start. Where they start with

fear of the Lord. What's gone wrong

in our culture? What's the shift

that's happened over the past 40 or 50

years. I've seen it. I've seen it and I've only 55 when a very short span of my career

in pediatrics, I've seen an enormous shift and that shift

has been this. And ladies and

gentlemen, I'm not talking just about

secular parents. I do a lot of my speaking

to secular parents, but to Christian

parents as well. We have come to a place in our parenting where we fear children more

than we fear the Lord. We fear children more

than we fear the Lord. Good, solid, loving, christian parents

fear their children more than

they fear the Lord. How did this happen? Well, we know how it

happened because very insidiously and slowly over the past 30 years, Satan has come in

and he's used the nicest of our friends to just sort of make a

few little changes in their parenting

under the guise of being wonderful parents. And focusing more

and more and more myopically away from

God on to our children. And we've come to a place

where literally and figuratively we fear

our kids, our families, if you will, moms and dads are orbiting

around their kids, and God is orbiting around all of us

in our family. And this is a very

important paradigm to understand the shift

that's taken place. Because if you

go out and you ask any garden variety, wonderful Christian

parent what his or her job is

as a good parent, they will respond by saying something like this. My job as a godly Dad is to provide a lot

of opportunities for my child's great

to make sure that my child has a healthy

self-esteem, right. This is the one I

love to make sure that no matter what is going on in my

child's life, doesn't matter

what they do. As long as my child is happy, then life is good. And by the way, my job moms are

great at this. My number one job as

a mom is to make sure that my child is

happy all the time. Well, who in the

world invented that? That's a killer for us? My mother's job I never believed was

to make me happy. And she would tell me

that that's not my job. You're bored. Go

figure out what to do. You gotta college

applications to do. Go figure out

how to write it. You want to go to medical

school, Terrific. Be behind you. A 100%. Go do the work you need

to do to get there. But we shifted in one generation to

feeling that it is our job to make sure our kids have

opportunities, healthy self-esteem there, that and they're happy all the time and that

they are successful. And then you superimpose Christianity on it and you really have a mess. Because not only do

we want successful, strong kids who can stand up against the world, we want kids who

are going to go to youth group Wednesday

nights church on Sundays and

Sunday evenings? No, all of their scriptures and be super prayers. So if we're going to

add that to the mix, we have an enormous

amount of work to do. And ladies and gentlemen, every parent

out there knows the work load we feel is far too much

for any parent. And that's why we have the golden

opportunity. Parents have never been so exhausted as

they are today. That's why I wrote

a book called ten habits of

happy Mother's. Because I went around

and I interviewed many, many high profile moms trying to do a lot

of these things. Just what I've talked about to raise super children. And they can't do

it and they're frustrated and life

is falling apart. And they know they're not living right life well, but they don't

know where to go. Why? Because

they need to go back to the right

starting place. What's behind all of this? If we just sort

of drill down a little bit, we can say, well, yes, it's really

all about our kids, but let's dig a

little bit deeper. I wrote a book on

fathers and daughters. It was an incredible

eye opener to me into the

hearts of dads. I learned more

about dads after I wrote the book than

before I wrote the book because

I heard from so many and my job my goal was to allow dads to see who they were from behind their daughter's eyes. Because if I believe

that dads could understand what their daughters want and need, not what the world

says you should be. And if they got that just for about ten minutes, their lives would

never be the same. And I believe

to some degree, that was fairly successful. But here's where you're you're Christian dad who believes he needs to do all these things

for his children. He's focusing on

his children. Here's why it feels like it's working for dad. Because if I do all

these things for my kids and I pay for college and I pay for their

graduate school. And I get him off

to these things. And they loved the Lord. Then I'm a really good dad and I can feel good

about my life. My life is worth living. But if I don't

and my kid runs away and he's homeless or he doesn't want

anything to do with me. Or if I really

mess up my kid, then I'm a failure. Because the deepest cry in my heart aside from

loving God and my lord. Which whether we know

it and we we don't, that's the deepest

cry of her. Second deepest cry

aside from having a great marriage is to love our kids

really well. And that's why

we need to chase our kids so desperately and make them everything. Because if it doesn't work, could we find out

somehow that we really failed

as dads Harris, the child at the

center of world. And you can see

that mom and dad are very close

to the child. Mom is pouring into the child data's

pouring into the child. And when they're

doing that, all of their energy

goes towards the child. What comes back?

I don't know. Sometimes it thank you. Sometimes not

noticed that God is sort of orbiting on the outside when their focus, as well as on their child. Where, where is

their focus on God, and where is

the interaction between mom and dad. One of the greatest

fallacies I hear all the time from parents who are divorced is this. We have an

amicable divorce. Were getting

along very well. We co-parent very well. And I live very close to Mom and I

think we're doing a good job helping her self-esteem state good. But what I say to

them and this is hard to hear is that in addition to the

child drawing identity from

both mom and dad, child draws identity

from the Union, not just security, but identity from the

marriage union. In this paradigm, there

may be a marriage, but there is no identity drawn from that union. You amp that up a

little bit and this is what happens once

it gets rolling. The more energy Mom and Dad Poor into the child, the child starts to

realize, Wow, Wow. Mom and dad packed

every but everybody up, the whole family up

this weekend and we all traveled up to the

while we go to the UP. Nobody should ever

have to go to the UP. I'm sorry. But we go to the UP ON hockey

tournaments for me. And everybody does this and they're spending

money for me. So I must be really

important, right? So the child

starts to think about himself and

improve himself. And mom and dad clap and the mom and dad put more and more in there. And then what happens

to God and they outside God and His

mercy and His grace, because he is who he is, says, well, I'm going

to love you anyway. He pours is love into them, but they're not

paying any attention. So what happens to Islam? It's nowhere to be found. And they are orbiting in their own little child, Mom and Dad severe

and it's not working. Mothers have a particularly difficult job in this paradigm, and this is what typical

mothers will say. Mothers had become extraordinarily

competitive. Even Christian mothers were competitive wheat

because we believe that some other mother

has her child memorize more

scripture praise more does more devotional. We're all in

there together, but our culture has

taught mothers that we are our child's

every thing. Data's nothing, we

are everything. So mothers have

learn because of the feminist movement

and the focus on women and the focussed on daughters and so

on and so forth. That we, our

child's everything and it begins in utero, but really amps up when you have your first child, talk to any mother

who is feeding a two month old and she is not breastfeeding

the child, liquid gold, then she feels like a really

bad mall, right? And now Time

Magazine says, okay, well, you don't have to breastfeed them

to those seven. That is a little bit

weird, but at least make it last

till she's four. I have colleagues,

very smart colleagues, advocate mom

breastfeeding children for at least a year

and a half of life. In the first year of life, dad must lead the bedroom because it belongs only to the child and the mom because breastfeeding

goes 24-7, whether she has

other kids or not, whether she has a job outside the home or not, whether she has a life or not, it doesn't matter. It's child and the baby. And but you see

what we're doing? I am my child's everything where he's got fit

into that paradigm. He doesn't and that moms as the child grows on. And I read a long list to a lot of mothers

and they just start to giggle and

laugh at first is dead silence because it's a little uncomfortable

when I read the list. But contemporary

mothers feel that their child needs

them more than dad. Throughout the lifespan. They need to

breastfeed her child till at least these to find out what he's allergic

to and make sure he never comes in

contact with it. Read about every

immunization before her doctor gives the immunization to the

child less that Dr. harm her child or

make a mistake, make sure that

our child isn't the fast reading group in its early on elementary

school as possible. Always bake from scratch

by organic food. And if a child falls

behind in school, find a good tutor and make sure he gets tutored at least three

times per week. That is your job as a parent to find

their hidden talent, develop them, and

create your star child. All parents in some

degree or another with this child-centered

parenting paradigm have jumped aboard what I call the crazy train. And the funny thing is, all parents are on it to one degree

or another. And some of you are

shaking your heads, particularly moms, because, you know, you get

up in the morning, you're running like

a crazy person. You end the day exhausted. You lay your head on

the pillow and think, oh, I just forgot

to do that. I forgot to do that.

I didn't do that. I'll try again tomorrow

and the list comes out the next day and

you're riding this. Crazy train and

it's picking up steam and you're

rocking back and forth. It's a little

bit comfortable. And lo and behold, you look around at all of your friends are on the

crazy train with you. And the funny thing is, there is a parallel

train and you look over to your right and

all of your friends, kids and your son

and daughter are on that train to and they're going to

some unknown place very, very fast. And you're going to some

unknown place very, very fast and nobody really knows what

you're going. But you know one

thing you want off because life

is out of control. But here's the catch. You're just a

little chicken to get off first. So you want the guy

next to you to try it. And if he's the

one who said you, NORC, our families

out of control. You can only play

one sport PR for your junior year

in high school. And I think you're

going to go to the college that God

wants you to. You're gonna

come home after school the other

two seasons. Well, we don't want to try that with

our kid first. We want our

friends to try it first and have that

kid does okay, and gets into the

right college. Then maybe we'll

decide we're going to drag our foot over this

side of the train. But you see, we're

all kind of stuck on this because this is

what that leads to. Well, that's not

what God says. Here's why God created a very different

paradigm for us, didn't in a very

different paradigm. God created for us that God centered

paradigm where he and he alone is at the center because

fearing the Lord, fearing the Lord, fearing the Lord first

with mom and then with that is where all Great Life

for family start. Man, there's so much good stuff and that message and we had to stop and abruptly because there

is another program. I just hate that we can't play it all in one day. But next time, I promise we're going to pick

up right where we left off with

the crazy train. I love that mental picture. There is no BD and

Dr. maker is there. Yeah. Right. Have you ever been on the

crazy dry me? I they got maybe

a couple to the early years

of our marriage. I lived on it and I really ever now and then

take a trip on yeah. I think what we

all do, well, this is such

practical stuff and I think our listeners

are really enjoying what

she had to say. This presentation

was actually made a small group of

family taught friends. There was an

invitation only group. And the parents who came seemed very pleased

by what they heard. What freedom there is, as Dr. maker said, in letting go of our need to be perfect parents who raise successful, athletic, brilliant

children. And instead focusing

on making the Lord the center of our lives and the center of our

children's lives. And I'm telling

you moms and dads, if you do that, it will transform

your family. It will. I mean, it was so

affirming for me as well, Laura and I try

to be extremely intentional about

the number of activities we put

Lincoln and Lucien. We just don't want

to be the kind of family that's always gone. We want to be

the family that sits around the

dinner table together and knows what

our kids are doing. And even if that

means the kids can't be in soccer

and belay Anna, Juana, and Little League. It's worth it to ignore

the pressure of that. Go, go, go, go,

go all the time. It's ok to slow

down and spend some time together and spend some time with God, Ryan, Don't you

know that surely. And I want super kids

for grandchildren. They are I mean, you've got to put them and every no way we're going to live through their

accomplishments. Dalton, I know that you see that all the time. Well, it's a big mistake. You don't have to do it

and it takes a lot of pressure off you as parents to not try to

do it all day. I have your kids do it all. It's unnecessary. And it'll take a

lot of pressure off you to slow down. Its what I like about homeschooling that

opportunity to be with the kids more. You don't send them off to somebody else for

eight hours a day. Instead, you have

the time to sit down and talk and think and have devotions

together. And It's a wonderful

way of life. It is. And if you'd like to

build a strong family, this message is a

great place to start, to hear it again

or access any of our other

countless marriage and parenting resources. Go online to Doctor

James Dobson.org. There you'll also

find Dr. Makers books including strong father,

strong daughters, and ten habits of happy Mother's well

online signup for my dad's newsletter

every month you can read his personal

thoughts on the issues surrounding your family and every family in America. Before we close and

related to that, Ryan, I need to tell our listeners

that we do need a little help financially. Family Talk came through pretty tough summer and we really haven't landed

on our feet yet. So if our listeners would consider if he can making a generous

gift to family talk, we would certainly

appreciate. We will. You can donate online

that Dr. James Dobson.org on our

Facebook page, our Family Talk app, or by calling

us 8777326825. Thanks for tuning

in and join us again next time

for more of Dr. Meg maker as she

helps us get off that crazy train right here on Dr. James

Dobson Family Talk.

Listen: Raising Kids Right II

Thanks for stopping by

for another edition of Dr. James Dobson

Family Talk. I'm Ryan Dobson here

with your host, psychologist and

bestselling author, Dr. James Dobson. To add, people

had been raising children since

the dawn of time, since Cain and Abel. You'd think we'd have

it figured out by now in the formula for

the perfect child. But I can't help

but notice, you've never written a book called three easy steps

to a flawless kid. Wouldn't it be nice if we could do that, Ryan, I'd sell a billion

book that we can't do that because children are so

different than, for that matter, the

parents are flawed too, so we do the best we can. And then we turn to

reliable sources, including trues

in the Scripture that can direct this

on many, many issues. It's really interesting to me that some of

the Bible was written 4 thousand

years ago and it's still

applicable today. So that's one source

you can count on. Well, it's important to

remember because there's so much bad

information out there. We have to make sure

that we don't start to believe it and try to implement that

bad information. So if you read something

about parenting or marriage and it just doesn't seem quite right. You have got to find

someone you trust also who has

the credentials to backup their advice. Well, Dr. maker is

one such source. She's been

practicing medicine for more than 20 years. Her husband is

also a physician. He's a pediatrician

and an internist. And they have a joint private practice

in Traverse City, Michigan that's in

Northern Michigan. And she will be

flying here to Colorado Springs

doing broadcast and participate

in other ways. The makers had been married for 31 years and they have four grown children and now a grand time Hm, Doctor maker is

also written six books on parenting. One of them that are

Lester's may want to check out is ten habits

of happy Mother's. She came here during

the summer to do abroad guest on that subject and I enjoyed it. And as we announced

yesterday, we're so pleased

because Dr. maker has joined us at Family Talk as

our physician and resonance and also a member of the broadcast team. So her voice is soon to become very

familiar to horizons. This particular message was given at a gathering of some friends of ours

in sunny California. Dr. maker did a fantastic job of

dispelling some of the modern myths of parenting while drawing our focus

back to God. So let's listen in to

this wonderful message from Dr. Meg maker on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson

family talk. If you look at how kids develop

their identity, it fundamentally

happens two ways. The first way is that kids read their parents. They read their parents,

you know, this. If you're a dad and you walk and at the end

of the day from home and you have a year-old, the

five-year-old, you're home and that child immediately

looks at you and that child needs to

figure out within about 15 seconds a

couple of things. Not because he's

interested in you, because it's

interested in him because all kids are

about themselves, whether they're

five or 15 or 20 and usually

hopefully around 25, they start to shed

that perspective. But that child

reads her father or his father because she needs to find out

very quickly. Just as my dad

in a good mood, just my dad See me. This my dad like

what I'm wearing. It's that happy. Oh, bad mood. Okay.

I'm going to leave. But we'll try

this again later. Why? Because you are the stability for

that child's world. And your child reads

you all the time. You see this is

very important. The child isn't

doesn't wanna know. Dad. Can you give

me this her dad, are you going to

cook dinner, Dad, we're gonna do the

child needs to know a couple things all throughout his life would all throughout her life. And that is do you like

what you see, Dan? Do you like what you

see? I'm right here. I'm right here. Getting ready to

go off to college. Do you like me yet? Dad? Mi worth

you loving me? Do you love me,

Dad? What do you believe about me, Dad? Do you believe I'm smart? Do you believe I'm stupid? Do you think I'm capable? Do you think I'm

a bad athlete? You see kids see

right through all of this running

around and chasing them after their sports. They don't feel like

you believe they're a great athlete because

you're standing on the sidelines clapping. They feel look

creepy to tell you the truth because

they feel that. And I've had kids

say this to me. The only way by dad

pays attention to anything I am doing is if I'm on a

soccer field. So very many times

I tell parents, please don't go to all your kid's soccer games because they feel like

they're going to get any attention from you. They need to

perform and now they're stuck on

the soccer field. But that's not where kids want to live

their lives. Their lives are lived, their identity is shaped. Living life next to you in your kitchen and your family room

and their bedroom. Why? Because

they need to see your face and see

your body language to reach you, to figure out who

they are to you. You see, you know, that the great, great irony for

all of you dads, you need to know

this is while you, every single dad with

a daughter wants to raise his daughter

self-esteem. And many dads because

they think problem, my daughter has a low

self-esteem solution. I need to figure

out how to do that. Maybe I buyers something, maybe I sign or more piano, maybe I've whatever it is. Well, in a daughters mind, research says the

number one way to boost a girls self-esteem is by receiving physical

affection from her dad. Why? Because of

this paradigm, daughter is

reading her dad. Daughter is

getting clues from her dad that she's seen. Data is huge in her eyes. He stooped down,

he hugs her. Life is great

in a moment and now she can go off and do what she

needs to do. Just like that. Her life has changed

and a hug in a minute. It is that simple because

that's God's plan. Because when we

fear God, first, we put them ahead, then we're spending

enough time with our children. We're taking what

we know of God, we're turning to

our children and they're reading it in us. And we're literally

transferring Jesus to our

children that way. The second way kids develop identity formation is by imitating their parents. You know, I've had

parents say to me sometimes it's

difficult going to Scripture and trying to figure out how to parent. I just wish that there was a gospel on how to

discipline a child. I just wish that God would addressed

breast-feeding or whether we should eat this way or whether we

should eat that way or whether we should do timeouts or

whether we should spank or why did he

leave out the details. But, you know, all of scripture as a parenting

text, isn't it? It's written by

God, our Father, to us, his children. And it says,

behave like me. With the gospels are all about, behaved like me. And then teach

your children to behave like you. It's as simple as that. The second way kids develop identity formation is by imitating Mom and Dad. Now if you're living in a God centered paradigm,

that can happen. Mom and Dad fear God. They focus on God. They pour into God. And then as they parents their kids and give

back to their children, everything they

give back is filtered through their fear of God, their faith. It doesn't come back empty. God then gives love

back to the children. He gives love back

to the parents. And everything

is beautifully contained in this

cushion of God, if you will. It all works. You've got this interaction between mom and God, dat and dot, Mom and Dad, God to mom and dad and God to the child. You see? And in this schematic, a child can look at mom and dad and see God and

your other schematic. They look at mom and dad. And what do they

see? Mom and dad jumping around the kid. It doesn't work. You know, this, it doesn't work. Part of who you are is it is an imitation of what you saw in

your mom and dad. What you learned about yourself from mom in

your mom and dad, and what you saw them do and for good or for ill, you reproduce

that, didn't you? You became and part

here mom and dad. So that means

if you want to teach your

children virtues, or we want to

teach parents how to teach their

kids virtues. First, it must begin

with the fear of God. Then parents must

imitate Christ. And then they must reflect that to their children. So their children can imitate that back to them. I've seen this work

over and over again. And one of the most

important virtues I think that

children can have, and I wrote this in

my father and father daughter book, is humility. I think humility

is the only way we can teach kids how to genuinely love other kids. And humility isn't always what we think it is. It's actually not

thinking less of oneself, but thinking

more of others. So that kids learn to level the playing field so that they are not

superior to others. It's one of the

bad things in the child-centered

paradigm we teach our kids is that

they are above others. Christ never wants us to teach that to our kids. But we teach our kids

things like humility. By living in front of them. Many years ago, our

daughter was about six. And I don't want to say

that we're you know, my husband, I

practice together. We have four kids. We had a big old suburban.

They did this. I don't want to

say that we were living on the crazy train, but we kind of work

and we were very, very busy one night

and I decided for dinner that we're

going to have Chinese food because I

was too tired to cook. So I being just a

little bit bossy, call up an ordered

the Chinese food that I wanted and that

everybody wanted. And I asked my husband

to go pick it up. And he said sure. And so I said right

before he left. Now, my favorite food

or the egg rolls. I don't really care

about anything else. I want the egg rolls. I was tired and

hadn't eaten all day, so make sure

whatever you do, you don't forget my

egg rolls, okay? Okay. Okay. And our

six-year-old daughter decided to trod along with her dad and

off they went to the Chinese restaurant

to pick up the food. They were gone quite a while and they came back. And I took out all the little white

containers and I open them up and I dumped

him in the pans. I was going to

heated up cuz I like hot Chinese food. And there's

something missing in the order. And it

was my egg rolls. Well, I was hungry

and I was tired and I was annoyed because he didn't do what I

wanted him to do. He forgot the egg rolls. So I really started to get a little snarky

and I parked. I said, where are

the egg rolls? This is not OK. And being a very gracious

and kind man, he didn't bark back. I think he did something like walk out the room. Sir, I do ignore me. I probably

would have to. And I was really I

was really angry and irritated

and frustrated and I don't know

what I was saying, but I was saying something

clearly agitated, mellow six-year-old

who'd gone with her dad came over

to me and kind of pulled me on the side

as I was stirring something very quickly over the stove, which is mom. Mom don't don't

be mad. Said why? She said because when

we're driving home, we went by Bryant Park and dad saw guy

rummaging through a trash can and it

was really cold. So dad pulled

the truck into the parking lot

and he took all of the Chinese food

over the man and he opened it all

up and he said, what would you like? Well, guess what he took. He didn't take

it all. I took my egg rolls. Good for AM. And we came home and I

was feeling about that high because I sort of

snapped at my husband, didn't say anything and hit and his Gracious manner. He didn't say

anything back to me. Years went by and

and our kids grew up and that particular

daughter graduated from college. And and when she

was out of college, she came to us

one day and said, you know, mom and dad, I think that God would like me to go abroad and teach because they learn to serve the poor

throughout the years. Because he took them on Medical Mission trips year after year after year. And they came to

have a real heart for a lot of the

poor in inches. And we said

where it's good, where South America think. Okay. Okay. I

thought in my mind I can do South

America, right? And weeks went by and no opportunity arose and no opportunity arose. And she got an

invitation to go teach in Indonesia. And she came to us and she started

talking to us. And she's about

24 years old, 25 years old, very

strong and independent. And she said, You know, I really feel that this is where I'm supposed

to be going. God, I prayed about this a long time, Mom and Dad, and I think that maybe God wants me to go to solo, isn't Indonesia,

which is all Muslim. So my husband was

nodding his head pretty commonly hears not the

worry or in the Pfam. And he said, well,

you know, okay. And I jumped and I said, well, I don't think so. God, and I need to

have a little chat here, right? It doesn't tell you to go somewhere without

talking to me first. Right? You see how fast we jump out of the gods

centered paradigm, right? And it becomes all about, that's what moms do, is we jump away

very fast and we make it about us and our kids and we'll

figure it out. And then maybe if

it's working right, we'll ask God's opinion. She went to Indonesia for a year and a half

and when she came home, I was a wreck

the whole time. I'd love to say it wasn't, but I kind of was

I still worry even though I love Christ,

I just worry. And she came home and after a year

and a half, she told us she didn't tell us while she was

there at that two miles away from the school, she was teaching

and was one of the was the one of the terrorist

training camps. And they are all

anti-American. And so she learn

when she was out and about if

anybody came up, talk to her to speak in an Australian

accent because many people thought she

was from Australia. And I said to her, aside from the

fact that I'm sure glad you

didn't tell us that a month

into it because I would have been out there and dragged you home. But I said, I want to

ask you some honey. If you can boil your

experience down to one thing that you learned while

you're over there, what would it be? A show? That's easy, mom. She said I learned that

God is enough. I learned that

God is enough. Now, did my daughter go to Indonesia because

her dad gave away egg rolls to a homeless man in a parking lot one

night. I don't know. But I'll tell you it

it sure brought her closer to serving her Lord. In the next generation

of children, we have an enormous

challenge ahead of us. I don't know

that family talk has ever faced the kind of obstacles that

may be it will face like it's going to have in the next year. But the work at Family Talk is more important. Than ever before

in our history, ladies and gentlemen,

for children, because we need to

gently and firmly and gently and firmly bring

our parents back. In order to bring

them forward, we need to take them

back to a place where First it is God. First it is the

fear of God. And then everything

will be added to that. First we have a fake

like Abraham had. Boy, oh boy. You want to be humbled

really quickly. Just read about Abraham and how we woke up in the

morning and God said, Abraham, today's a day. You're gone and

attract today. And I'll be wet mount

Moriah with Isaac. And it doesn't say that Isaac gave him much

trouble, does it? Probably because with a God centered

family paradigm, Isaac trusted his dad

as Sons want to do, and he went

along with them. And when the

moment came for Abraham to bind his son and put them on the altar. A really fairly

grotesque scene, if you will, as a

parent, I will tell you. I I don't know that I have that

kind of faith. I would love to I would love to have

that kind of faith, but just being

perfectly honest. But in God's mercy, when Abraham turned

Isaac over to the God, he feared God's mercy. Open the heavens. And the cry came. Abraham. Abraham, No, no, no, no, no, it's okay. Take him down Abraham. Was that Jesus crying

out from Heaven? I don't know. Maybe

some of you do. But we know that, that Rij, that story really

wasn't about parenting Abraham's parenting and Abraham's fear of his lord. And what he did

with Isaac and helping parents to get back to that kind of faith. It was really about

our father, wasn't it? Our Father, whom we

are told to fear. Hu hundreds of years later, took his son

and put them on the wood alter

and on the top of Calvary because

he is who? He is. After he put

him on the cross. The air was silent because for him as the bad, no voices. That's our God. Fearing. God is

where every family. We've been listening

to Dr. Meg maker on this family

talk broadcast. What a nice event, dad. And following this

presentation, you came up to

interview her. I did. Before I tell

our listeners about that doctor makers

available to speak. And as you heard, she is good and test let us know and we

will pass that along. Now, after she spoke. I came out of the audience and came up on the platform and talked with

their little bit in Canada, he

interviewed her. Yeah. We don't have

time to hear all that. All that was recorded. But in the first program, Dr. maker spoke about

the crazy drink that we're all riding

were just breathless. And I think we started this program making

reference to that. Afterward, I asked

Dr. maker to tell us how to get off the crazy drain and

this was her reply. How in the world get

off the crazy train? One of my greatest

concern about family life today is the pace

at which we run. And everything

you're trying to do. As a committed Christian

parents can be undermined by

simply getting on the crazy train. I am convinced that those parents that

come home worn-out, exhausted and they're too tired to notice what's

going on around them. And, and I, I am telling you this conclusion

that I've drawn, that if you are too I'm involved and too exhausted

to pay attention, the culture will take

your kids to hill. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's organized

for that purpose. That is the driving force of the culture, you know, first of all,

with the idea of the crazy train and how to encourage

parents to get off. Parents do what they

do because they really believe they're

serving the kids well, by chasing after them, by getting him an

organizations, by letting him do this, by giving them

iPads by they literally behind our

kids chasing them. And I think that if

we teach parents, that's really not what

your kids want or need from you and give them a different

perspective. They will start to be able to give some

of that stuff up. For instance, when, when we talk about

the need to simplify, everybody wants to simplify more than your kids need time on the

soccer field, or more time in school, or more time with

their friends. They need more

face-to-face time with you because you are

it for your kids, particularly this

identity formation and reading parents faces. If you don't have enough time with

your parents, when they're not exhausted, how is a child

going to figure out who they are

to their parent? So I encourage parents to take little baby steps. I encouraged him say, each child should have one sport per semester, one extra curricular

activity, and just start to cut one thing out and

another thing, and I start with

that first. The other big, huge problem is going

to be electronics because this is

very divisive for families, is

electronic gadgetry. Because kids can sit

in a room with mom and dad and

everybody's just texting and looking

at their thing. So I talk about starting with one or two

nights a week. We have electronic

free time. And I believe that if

first we love our Lord, that He will show us

day to day ways when we can spend more face-to-face time with our kids. And once you

begin to do that, it feels so good. The wanted. Wow, what

a phenomenal message. I am thrilled we

got to share that with you over the past

couple of broadcasts. And this message

from Dr. Meg maker gets to the very

heart of family talk. We want to help

families tackle the problems they face

in everyday life. And that's why we do

the work to bring a message like

this one which was originally just for

a small audience on the air for

everyone to hear. If you'd like to learn

more from Dr. maker, be sure to look up her blog called The Wisdom

of a paediatrician, the heart of a mother. You can find that

on our website, Dr. James Dobson.org. Doctor make

irregularly provides advice on how to

raise your children, to have healthy bodies

and godly mines. And for countless

messages on raising kids, check out our

online archives for more broadcasts. There you'll find

other resources about marriage parenting, including information

on Dr. makers books, strong father's

strong daughters and boys should be boys. God bless, thanks for listening and we'll

see you next time for another edition of Dr. James Dobson

Family Talk.