roll, Professor of Counselor Education, Fairfield University Part I The Initial Stage
00:00:00PEG CARROLL We're gonna be here for a long time, maybe six hours, not straight. Ah, you signed a release which has given many people permission, you've given people permission to look at this tape. However, it's going to be edited, and what I'd like to say, and then I, you decide how you feel about this is this, that I'd like to ask you, ah, when you leave or when you're chatting with anyone outside, and you go home and talk to your loved ones, that you not talk to them about what you, what anyone else said in the group. How you felt, what you experienced is perfectly okay, but I'd like you, to ask you not ever to talk with anyone about what anyone else said.
00:02:20 I think that I would feel freer to, uhm, it's gonna be more comfortable to know that it's just here.
00:02:30 Confidentiality is, is real and I agree with that, and, and this is being taped, I decide to get involved, I think, in a group and that would be okay.
00:02:45MARYANNE I think I've, I have wanted that it was being taped with all the lights. No, it, it's, that may be a bit more inhibiting.
00:02:55PEG CARROLL I'd like to hear from each of you on this.
00:02:55JEAN Well, I, I'm (inaudible ).
00:03:02PEG CARROLL Who're you talking with?
00:03:02JEAN To Maryanne and Jenny both are. I, I'm not sure how I feel about the tape but I, ah, the confidentiality thing is, is, makes me feel comfortable because I know I don't know anyone really, except you and Jimmy(ph) and I probably won't see anybody again. So I wanna be just here for as long as we are and it helps to know that everyone is committed to being just here. And that nobody is, you know, pocketing anything and taking it with them somehow. I don't know. It's, it's hard to find the right words but I'm pretty comfortable.
00:03:35PEG CARROLL I'm not sure what, what you mean, Jean, ah, and when you said, ah, "putting something in the pocket and taking it with them." Can you tell me about that?
00:03:45JEAN Well, if the things that I experience here are finished somehow, I'll, ah, the one way to finish them is to talk about them some place else. So if we've decided and we'll only talk, I mean we'll only be with each other here and that's it, then this is my only chance. Hah. You know what I mean? I can't wait to figure out what's really happened. I, I really, I'll be more inclined to do it here because I know everybody else is feeling the same way.
00:04:15ART Do you think that if something is not finished here that, as you said, you might be able to carry it on elsewhere? Or is it. (crosstalk)
00:04:20PEG CARROLL All right. Can I stop you just for a minute?
00:04:25ART Certainly.
00:04:25PEG CARROLL Sure. You're talking to Jean. You're asking Jean a question.
00:04:25ART Uh hum.
00:04:25PEG CARROLL But I think the question has more to do with you... (crosstalk)
00:04:30ART Okay.
00:04:30DR. PEG CARROLL ...than Jean. Can you talk about yourself and talk to Jean in relation to that?
00:04:35ART Well, if I were ah, having something that. (crosstalk)
00:04:35PEG CARROLL But Art, no, you are right here right now.
00:04:40ART Okay, I'm here.
00:04:40PEG CARROLL Right. (crosstalk)
00:04:40ART Well, that's why... (crosstalk)
00:04:40PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:04:40ART ...so I can butt in. Ah, (crosstalk)
00:04:40 Okay.
00:04:40ART if I find myself having, ah, something that's unresolved, uhm, I don't know at this point, ah, whether I would do anything with it outside or not. But I feel comfortable that if it's not resolved, at least I give what I could here.
00:05:00BRENDA You know, maybe I misunderstood but I, I feel, Jean, ah, that it's all right after the group if we wanna discuss. (crosstalk)
00:05:10PEG CARROLL Can you, say, talk to yourself, talk to yourself?
00:05:15BRENDA It's all right for me to talk with someone else about what I felt after the group, but it's not all right to speak with someone else about it.
00:05:20JEAN I, I myself.
00:05:20BRENDA So I, I guess what I'm saying is if I want to discuss what happened to me today later, I can do that, although I can't discuss with somebody else that. That's why... (crosstalk)
00:05:35 Right.
00:05:35BRENDA ...I thought that made(ph) sense.
00:05:35 Yeah.
00:05:35ART I'd go, I'd go on with that.
00:05:35PEG CARROLL I'm glad you clarified that, Brenda, because I heard different things. I heard two different issues going on. And we have not heard from everyone in, in the group. Ah, I'd like to, I'd like to hear everyone respond. Who would you like to hear from, anyone?
00:05:55DENUDA I would like to, ah, I agree with that. I'm glad you brought up the subject of, of, of videotaping because, ah, I felt very uncomfortable. At this point, ah, it seemed to me it would be more easy for me to, to be in this group, uhm, although when I'm looking, this is, is hot.
00:06:15PEG CARROLL And you're saying, Jenny, you eased my feelings a bit? Is that what you're telling... (crosstalk)
00:06:20DENUDA Yes.
00:06:20DR. PEG CARROLL ...Jenny?
00:06:20JENNY Yes. Uhm, ah, I feel better that, ah, somebody else is feeling the same way I do. It would seem, ah, might be more easy that I'm not different.
00:06:35PEG CARROLL Is Jenny the only one that you are, you are feeling a camaraderie with in the group, or is there anyone else you're identifying with too?
00:06:40DENUDA Uhm, Some of those people I, I still don't know, you know, you know. I agree with Brenda that, ah, if I, if I don't finish what is going on with me here, ah, I think I can talk with, ah, with somebody about my own feelings, you know, the, whatever I want to finish. I'm hoping to find something, you know.
00:07:10PEG CARROLL Have you heard from everyone in this group?
00:07:15DENUDA No, I didn't hear from Lucy and, ah.
00:07:15LUCY Uhm, I don't know. I guess confidentiality wasn't even an issue for me. Ah. (crosstalk)
00:07:20PEG CARROLL It wasn't there, isn't it?
00:07:25LUCY It wasn't until you brought it up.
00:07:25PEG CARROLL Okay. (crosstalk)
00:07:30LUCY Uhm, (crosstalk)
00:07:30PEG CARROLL Good.
00:07:30LUCY because I, I just feel it with any other groups.
00:07:30PEG CARROLL And that's still an idea.
00:07:35LUCY All right. And I'll tell why. Every time I'm with you, I know that anything that is said is, is kept in confidence. And. (crosstalk)
00:07:40PEG CARROLL But you don't know these other people. I'm not speaking for me when I say this... (crosstalk)
00:07:45LUCY Right. (crosstalk)
00:07:45PEG CARROLL ...is gonna be confidential. I'm asking for contract from everyone.
00:07:45LUCY Uh hmm. I, I don't feel uncomfortable with that. I'm a member of AA and whenever I go to an AA meeting, I open my mouth and I say what's on my mind and I trust.
00:07:55PEG CARROLL Okay. So you had a, you've had a lot of very good experience in this, haven't you? (crosstalk)
00:08:00LUCY With trusting, yes.
00:08:00PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:08:00RON I feel something a little different thing right now. We discussed in the beginning the confidentiality of our group and, and looking at it, this is a finite number of people. I mean I'm looking around, I see the number of people. There's maybe 20 of us. I feel comfortable with the confidentiality here with these people. I don't know what's gonna happen when this is shown, when there's an infinite number of people I have no control. I don't have any control here either but the control is where I'm not knowing when it's being shown, or to whom it's being shown. Right now, I'm, I feel comfortable with everyone here when they, you all tell me, yes, they will not discuss anything. But what happens when that film is shown and somebody looks on the film and said, "Hey, I know Ron," or I know Lucy or Jenny. I, I don't know. I feel a little uncomfortable, but not that it bothers me enough to not want to be here. Well. (crosstalk)
00:08:50PEG CARROLL Anyone you want to talk to here that could help you with that, that you heard earlier?
00:08:55RON Or maybe Jenny does. We signed the contract and you were apprehensive. I, I dunno, I'm just wondering. Will other people who they see this on signing a contract, I don't think and how do you feel about that. I mean do you feel the same way I do, that maybe those other people are the ones that we can't trust?
00:09:15 Ah, I haven't thought about trusting them. Uhm, I guess I'm, I would be concerned a little bit about how I'm perceived and, and that troubles me a little bit.
00:09:30PEG CARROLL Well, where are we with all of this. Can we move on or where are we?
00:09:35BRENDA When, when Ron and Jenny just talked about wanting to look good, and I said to myself, "Jenny looks (inaudible )." But I guess I want to look good too. I don't want to look bad doing this. And, and I guess that's why maybe I have to work that through so that I can really be myself in a group because I feel like that too.
00:10:00PEG CARROLL How would you work that through?
00:10:00BRENDA By doing what we're doing right now, I, I feel like I'm, even if I probably looked comfortable coming in here, I have some anxiety too. And I guess as we're talking more on this, I'm feeling less anxious.
00:10:15PEG CARROLL Anyone here not heard enough from any one member in relation to, I use the term "contract" in terms of the confidentiality issue. Anyone here would like to here more from any one member?
00:10:35[sil.]
00:10:35RON Well, I, I don't know. I'm gonna empathize and feel with Brenda with what she said. I'm feeling, (crosstalk)
00:10:45PEG CARROLL Can you talk to Brenda?
00:10:45RON Brenda, I feel more comfortable that, ah, you are saying that you're feeling more comfortable that we talk about it. But when I'm looking, I'm looking at Jenny, Brenda, Lucy, and (inaudible ) and I see four people here, so maybe I'd like to ask with these four people. It would be Art, Arthur. (crosstalk)
00:10:55PEG CARROLL Could you select one? Point there?
00:11:00RON Oh, I pointed him. You tell me, do you feel this comfortable as we're beginning to feel?
00:11:00ART I, ah, I feel comfortable because I'm going through it. I don't think the, ah, the tension that I had coming in with was anything that I was seriously, ah, worried about. Ah, (crosstalk)
00:11:15PEG CARROLL Well, where are you right at this minute... (crosstalk)
00:11:15ART I'm feeling... (crosstalk)
00:11:20PEG CARROLL ...right now?
00:11:20ART ...okay. I, I think there's a little bit of tension inside of me... (crosstalk)
00:11:20PEG CARROLL Talk to him.
00:11:20ART ...as to, ah, what could happen, what's going to happen.
00:11:25PEG CARROLL Where are you?
00:11:30RON I agree. I agree with all of that. I think how I feel, Art, is the tension that I had coming in is now turning itself around to more excitement for, for the group to get going and to, and get the process in motion, and it, it's starting to feel very good.
00:11:45PEG CARROLL And When you use that word "excitement," let's check with the group where everyone is right now in relation to that. Can you give a one word, adjective, as to where you are. I'm gonna start with you, Ron. You said "I'm excited." You're feeling excited?
00:12:00RON I'm feeling excited.
00:12:00PEG CARROLL Okay. Can we get one word from each of you? Just spontaneously, where are you right now?
00:12:05DENUDA I feel deep(ph). I feel I'm now at peace, at peace, uh hmm, and I don't have, I want to say that I'm very (inaudible ).
00:12:17PEG CARROLL One word.
00:12:17DENUDA Oh, okay.
00:12:17PEG CARROLL What was the word?
00:12:20DENUDA Release.
00:12:20PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:12:20MARYANNE Safe.
00:12:25PEG CARROLL Can you look at someone and, ah, someone will say it too. (crosstalk)
00:12:25MARYANNE Safe. I feel safe.
00:12:30 Relaxed.
00:12:30PEG CARROLL Would you talk to someone, not to me? (crosstalk)
00:12:35 Relaxed.
00:12:35 I feel more comfortable. Comfortable.
00:12:40[sil.]
00:12:40ART Stabilized. I like it.
00:12:45JEAN For me, I think I feel intensive.
00:12:50JENNY I feel a little enthusiastic.
00:12:55ART Hmm.
00:12:55PEG CARROLL Finally, we have a sense of where the group is. Ah, there's a matter of issue too. Uhm, you're here and they are out there?
00:13:10JEAN Well, as I, that I thought, I, I was told that this could be the arrangement before I came but I was a little surprised by your concern about the tape, and where it was going, and how you would look because in order of priority, my worries are, first, what am I doing here? And secondly, there's other people here. And it, it didn't, even to my mind what is gonna happen to this out there some place because it, it just, it didn't, there's no anxiety for that. It's just too far away. I, I have no concept with what that, what everybody's gonna do with it or pull it apart or how they are seeing you. And I'm never seen that either. You know, I'm more concerned right here with how I'm perceiving what I'm, what I'm exchanging. So I guess that surprised me a little. You sound like you're very comfortable here and you're concerned about that other part.
00:14:05PEG CARROLL When you say you're surprised, Jean, I'm not sure what you mean. You find it hard to accept where Ron is right now, or what, what is it that, that, ah, you're dealing with?
00:14:15JEAN Well, I wonder if, uhm. (crosstalk)
00:14:20PEG CARROLL You're saying something about yourself?
00:14:20JEAN Yeah, you know. Where, where are my priorities? Where's, and my anxiety lining up in the right direction because we seemed to be exactly in reverse order.
00:14:25PEG CARROLL Well, is there anyone you're connecting with here in the group, that you. (crosstalk)
00:14:30JEAN Uhm, Lucy, when she said she was comfortable.
00:14:30PEG CARROLL She's right here.
00:14:30LUCY Uhm, the first thing you said, you know. When I looked around with the people at the beginning, I looked, felt this could be okay. So when you said you were comfortable, I believed you right away. Just, just the sense that it could be okay to be here.
00:14:50PEG CARROLL And then when she sent a, a, or chemistry over to you, can you describe that?
00:14:55JEAN It was very peaceful. It was, it, it just validated a little what I felt, except when you said right away, you weren't too happy with that and his word out there. I'm thinking, huh, it didn't make sense.
00:15:10MARYANNE I agree with you, Jean, and that's why I said I hadn't really thought the videotaping that much. Uhm, and I would say that I, the reason I feel, one of the reasons I feel safe is I tend to give you pay, it's just a lot of, ah, authority in that I felt that because you'd selected the people that would be in the group, that is, and is outside of all of these people and most of the people I have met through you I trust. So I, and, and that's really how I came in here... (crosstalk)
00:15:45 Uh hmm.
00:15:45MARYANNE ...that's where I end up, and I don't know if I'm giving you too much authority.
00:15:50PEG CARROLL I think you are.
00:15:55MARYANNE Yeah.
00:15:55PEG CARROLL But as you said you're not comfortable with that. You're not comfortable. (crosstalk)
00:16:00MARYANNE And she started having so many positive experiences because I've met people. I. (crosstalk)
00:16:00PEG CARROLL Wait a minute. Now you're getting out there. (crosstalk)
00:16:05MARYANNE All right.
00:16:05PEG CARROLL Stay right here. (crosstalk)
00:16:05MARYANNE Okay.
00:16:05PEG CARROLL We are right here.
00:16:05MARYANNE Okay.
00:16:05PEG CARROLL Where you are.
00:16:05MARYANNE Uhm, presently.
00:16:10PEG CARROLL What was the word you used earlier in terms of yourself? I forgot.
00:16:15MARYANNE Safe.
00:16:15PEG CARROLL You felt safe and you're talking about feeling you still feel unsafe.
00:16:15MARYANNE Uh hmm.
00:16:20PEG CARROLL I guess what I want to say, I like the people here to make you feel safe more than my helping you to feel safe. I'm glad that I can help you there, but I would like you to feel safe among this group, all of us.
00:16:30MARYANNE Well, I know some people in the group. It's really only Jean and Art and Ron, but I don't know them all.
00:16:40PEG CARROLL Well, well, as I said. You're here and, and they're out there. Ah, have I heard from all of you in relation to that?
00:16:45BRENDA I expected that because I have seen, uhm, I'll talked to you, remember, when, because we have seen the fish bowl technique. So I expected there would be people on the outside. I mean, if, if, that's what you're asking is how I feel about that? I, I don't, I think it's, it's all right that there are people out there taking notes.
00:17:10PEG CARROLL And something that has not been mentioned that I feel I should mention is that out there, they're also part of the contract.
00:17:15ART I have a basic tendency to trust, ah, anyone right at, at the beginning. And I knew that there was gonna be a group outside of us and it didn't bothered me at all.
00:17:25PEG CARROLL So you're, you're not concerned?
00:17:30ART No.
00:17:30PEG CARROLL Okay. All right. I'm gonna talk to them and (inaudible ) excuse me, I have to go away. Now, tell me out here what am I doing? What's going on, what am I doing? Debbie.
00:17:45DEBBIE Trying to establish the issue of confidentiality, how important that is in a very persistent manner in everyone to buying (inaudible )
00:17:52PEG CARROLL Okay. Now, even though I am concerned about the confidentiality, I'm doing something else to the group. So I'm working in the group right now. What is it that you that I'm doing, Evelyn?
00:18:00EVELYN Well, one of the things I see is that you're making sure that everyone starts focusing on each other, instead of just you and yourself. (crosstalk)
00:18:05PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:18:05EVELYN You're saying even if they're not making comments, non-verbally they are making comments by just looking to you, and you're saying look at the person... (crosstalk)
00:18:10PEG CARROLL Okay. (crosstalk)
00:18:15EVELYN ...speak to the person... (crosstalk)
00:18:15PEG CARROLL Okay. (crosstalk)
00:18:15EVELYN ...and look directly now.
00:18:15PEG CARROLL Any? Eileen?
00:18:15EILEEN I think you're, you're trying to link also by having people identify with each other so they can feel that... (crosstalk)
00:18:20PEG CARROLL Uh hmm.
00:18:20EILEEN ...commonality and bonding is beginning to take place.
00:18:25PEG CARROLL Good. Anything else do you want to respond to? Yes, Pat. (crosstalk)
00:18:25PAT You, you attempted to universalize people's concerns.
00:18:30PEG CARROLL Right. Okay. Very good terms, all of those terms. This stage is called, some authors call it "milling around."
00:18:35 Uh hmm.
00:18:35PEG CARROLL It's probably familiar to you. Others say it's the initial stage. Now, in the initial stage, there is a lot of, it's norm setting. Now, what are some of the norms that I'm setting? Oh we, and we haven't, haven't heard from, Jim?
00:18:50JIM I think the, the, the issue of trust, (inaudible )sort of the, the normal and you can trust entirely on slight because of the situation. It's a multiple... (crosstalk)
00:19:00DR. PEG CARROLL It's a multiple problem.
00:19:00JIM ...problem, yeah.
00:19:00PEG CARROLL Okay. All right. Helen?
00:19:05HELEN You are also asking people not to ask questions.
00:19:05PEG CARROLL All right. (crosstalk)
00:19:05 Uh hum.
00:19:05PEG CARROLL What might be the reasons for asking people not to ask questions, Pat?
00:19:10PAT Well, you have people own what they're feeling here right now.
00:19:15PEG CARROLL Own, own, right. That's right. What other, what then else am I doing in terms of norms?
00:19:20KAREN I think you're trying... (crosstalk)
00:19:20PEG CARROLL Karen? (crosstalk)
00:19:20KAREN ...to get people to stop intellectualizing and start bringing things in from outside the group... (crosstalk)
00:19:25PEG CARROLL Okay. (crosstalk)
00:19:25KAREN ...to talk about what's going... (crosstalk)
00:19:25PEG CARROLL Okay. (crosstalk)
00:19:25KAREN ...on right now.
00:19:25PEG CARROLL Okay. Okay. When we say "talk about what's going on right now," what is that process called? Ingrid, do you remember?
00:19:30INGRID That you stay... (crosstalk)
00:19:35PEG CARROLL Yeah. Right, you got it.
00:19:35INGRID ...right here in the now.
00:19:35PEG CARROLL Right. The "here and now process" that is very important. Now, there's a two-tiered process. A lot of what I'm doing, it comes from Young, although there are a few things that I would get into later that, that are not, uhm, not things that Young might be concerned about in running a group. And one of it has to do with authority which Maryanne brought up, and we'll see this demonstrated in a little while. Ah, this is an interaction approach here in terms of the group must interact. And when you said, I mean, you're, I'm asking people to look at each other and talk with each other, (crosstalk)
00:20:05 Uh hmm.
00:20:05PEG CARROLL that's part of the norm setting. Also, it does bring them into the here and now. That's the one tier. There's another tier that has to do with the process, that's interpreting the process with this group is, are they able to do that yet? Or am I able to do that with the group yet? That would be my question. Do you understand what I'm saying, interpreting the process? Okay, you know.
00:20:25PAT Well, I think everybody is asking the question who am I in the group?
00:20:30DR. PEG CARROLL Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:20:30PAT I don't think they're ready to talk about the group as having its identity yet. (crosstalk)
00:20:30PEG CARROLL Good. Good. How long do you think this takes for the group? This initial stage?
00:20:35INGRID It would vary with the people.
00:20:35PEG CARROLL All right. Vary. Yeah?
00:20:40KAREN And also the size of the group.
00:20:40 Uh hmm.
00:20:40PEG CARROLL The size, right.
00:20:45KAREN I think that it will take a lot of longer if you have twice as many people you have... (crosstalk)
00:20:45PEG CARROLL Right.
00:20:45KAREN ...and it will vary with each person.
00:20:45PEG CARROLL Is this a good sized group, Helen?
00:20:50HELEN It seems like a good sized group. Nobody gets lost.
00:20:55PEG CARROLL Right, nobody gets lost. Okay. Now, ah, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna move in again. Be prepared to, if you want to ask, I had said to you respond to the process but if you want to say it later why didn't you do this with someone, so rather than doing this, that's a perfectly okay question to ask. I had said not to discuss persons as such but I mean describing their behavior and interpreting what they're doing. But you can ask why I'm doing what I'm doing. Those would be good questions. All right. Now, you've learned something. You heard people outside talking. So where are you in relation to what you're in?
00:21:30LUCY It was just broken down for me, ah. (crosstalk)
00:21:40PEG CARROLL Why don't... (crosstalk)
00:21:40LUCY Jean.
00:21:40PEG CARROLL ...you select someone to talk to?
00:21:45LUCY Jean. Uhm, maybe there's a chance that I can go inside of, of what we've all been talking about, so they just broke it down to the trust issue and keeping it in the here and now just to refresh my memory, and that is somewhat.
00:21:55PEG CARROLL What would you like to do now?
00:21:55LUCY Move away. (crosstalk)
00:22:00PEG CARROLL You wanna back out?
00:22:00LUCY I want to back out a little. I feel too close.
00:22:05JEAN Yeah. But I think it's probably because of one thing I heard from Peg at the very end, which was she just told me, we'll it's not a group yet. It's still individuals and I felt, I was starting to feel kind of like a group and she just, words on that and so I'm, I'm retreating, you know.
00:22:20PEG CARROLL So what I have to say has a lot of power, huh?
00:22:25 Uh hmm.
00:22:25PEG CARROLL Uh hmm. You want to talk to Jean?
00:22:30MARYANNE Well, that's what, yes, Jean.
00:22:30 You could.
00:22:30MARYANNE Uhm, I think I brought that up before, yes, that, that, what Peg has to say has a lot of power because she said that it's not a group yet and I really felt it too, although it's moving into that. And I'm, I guess I want to move on.
00:22:55 Uh-huh.
00:22:55JEAN Yeah. I don't think I, I'm not sure it's power. I assume that you know more about this process than I do, so that's the way I heard it. I didn't, I don't think I heard you tell me it's not a group yet, you know. I'm just assuming that my view might be mine. I haven't checked it with everybody, that's why I'm glad you just brought up. I was happy to hear you say you're feeling that you are not going back.
00:23:25LUCY Physically.
00:23:30JEAN Yeah. No, I mean, ah, I trust to come in here but I don't bring with me a, a, a sense that I know everything about what's going on here. That will be the last thing I bring. So it's, it has some givens but I did feel that it was a little tighter and that jarred me. So once you, for me that Peg has the, that power is the right word.
00:24:00PEG CARROLL You're saying, "Peg, you're pretty important, you're pretty important," and Maryanne you're, you're saying the same thing, "Peg you're pretty important."
00:24:05MARYANNE Yes, but I really want to move back because my legs are uncomfortable.
00:24:10BRENDA I, I and Maryanne feel pretty much like you feel about how important Peg is. I don't know how you would have trust and when, when Peg said that about, well, to the outside people, well, you'll, you'll, you said something, well you'll see how will I deal with the learning. That's what stuck in my mind. I say I wonder when she's going to do that, and now I feel like Peg is doing that. And, uhm, I very much feel that Peg is the authority.
00:24:45PEG CARROLL And can you tell me that?
00:24:50BRENDA Yeah. I feel that you are the authority and that you really know about this... (crosstalk)
00:24:55PEG CARROLL Yeah.
00:24:55BRENDA ...and I think that it's all right for me to trust you with that.
00:24:55PEG CARROLL I guess that I'm uncomfortable with that but I'm glad you could say it to me because I want you to say, I want you to be who you are. And when you tell me that I'm an authority and you tell me that I have a lot of power, what you're both really saying, as in Jean a little bit, "You're more important to me than the members."
00:25:15MARYANNE All right. I'm gonna have to give you, ah, the power right now. That's why I moved back because I was really, thought I was gonna crash into your knee. And, ah, but I think, and I know I'm not, I'm not supposed to have that out of hand. (inaudible ) (crosstalk)
00:25:31PEG CARROLL You wanna stay right here. Oh.
00:25:31MARYANNE I would like us to move on. I really feel like I trust you and the other people, even though some of you that I, I don't know well, and I don't need Peg to protect me.
00:25:45PEG CARROLL Can you tell me that?
00:25:45MARYANNE Peg, I don't need you to protect me. But then... (crosstalk)
00:25:45PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:25:45MARYANNE that still goes back to it, that I trust you're judgment, and you selected the people. I have to be honest.
00:25:55JENNY I don't feel that way. (crosstalk)
00:25:55MARYANNE Uh hmm.
00:26:00JENNY Ah, ah, it isn't that just that I don't trust her but, uhm, ah, I have to trust people in the group. I'm not, I'm not there yet. I don't trust anybody yet. Uhm. (crosstalk)
00:26:15PEG CARROLL Who do you feel comfortable with? Could you talk to anyone you feel particularly comfortable with yet?
00:26:20JENNY Sure ah, it's hard to say that, I guess, who I feel comfortable with because I heard from you, Lucy. I thought you really risked a, a lot in your first statement when you said you belong to AA, and I thought I'm not sure that in a group where I did know anybody, that I would've been willing to trust enough. Uhm, and so I guess that what I see in you is a lot of strength as a person, and I like that. And I thought, wow, this is a really strong person and I'm going, uhm, going to be comfortable with, you know. And maybe we'd be able to do some work, you know. I, I like to have, ah, good points with everybody but I'm not, I'm not really totally trusting yet. But I, I feel good where I am and I feel that I'm, you know, when we move on with it that I will really trust more. I mean I'm comfortable with anybody here.
00:27:20[sil.]
00:27:20PEG CARROLL Who are you gonna talk to, Denuda?
00:27:25DENUDA I'm not sure we'll be back in... (crosstalk)
00:27:25PEG CARROLL Oh, try "I am not sure." (crosstalk)
00:27:30DENUDA ...uhm. (crosstalk)
00:27:30PEG CARROLL It depends on what you're gonna say.
00:27:30DENUDA Uhm, I think that we're going to when you said that this is not a group yet... (crosstalk)
00:27:35PEG CARROLL Hmm.
00:27:35DENUDA ...because I felt like we, you the one who established the rules in this group. You were the one who had said it's okay for us to be here. You were the one who said that. (crosstalk)
00:27:45PEG CARROLL Can you change it to "I was the one?"
00:27:50DENUDA I, I was comfortable with all of this, yes, (crosstalk)
00:27:50PEG CARROLL And I was the one who said what?
00:27:50DENUDA oh yes. And then you just stand up for a while and kind of summarize with other people the rules of this group and then you said there's no group yet. And I felt like, you know, I felt that I am part of this group because I said that I trust. Uhm, and I said that it's okay for me to be here and then to be taped and to be listening. And it was okay. And I rather appreciate everything you have to say and contributing Brenda, and Jean, and Lucy, and Jenny, and Art, and Maryanne, and I feel comfortable now that I can say it because it is very difficult to make this decision, to do it.
00:28:35PEG CARROLL Good. I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said you resented that. Now I get the sense that you wanna really be in there.
00:28:40DENUDA Yes. I want to move.
00:28:40PEG CARROLL You wanna move.
00:28:40DENUDA Uh hmm.
00:28:45RON Denuda, I, I think I agree with that statement because just trying. (crosstalk)
00:28:50PEG CARROLL You want to talk to me or Denuda?
00:28:50RON Well, I want to talk to Denuda that I agree with you, but the feelings that I have are almost the same as with Peg... (crosstalk)
00:28:55PEG CARROLL Uh hmm.
00:28:55RON ...when everyone is saying "you have the power" and you're saying I don't. (crosstalk)
00:29:00PEG CARROLL Uh hmm.
00:29:00RON I feel you do, and then here's to the point where I may have resented that you said this is not a group. I, in essence, gave you that power... (crosstalk)
00:29:10PEG CARROLL Sure.(crosstalk)
00:29:10RON ...and I, I, I don't know if I want that.
00:29:10PEG CARROLL All right. You want to take it away?
00:29:15RON I don't want to take it away. I, I. (crosstalk)
00:29:15PEG CARROLL Why not?
00:29:15RON Well, maybe away from you.
00:29:20PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:29:20RON I'd rather that you. (crosstalk)
00:29:20PEG CARROLL Glad you could tell me that. Good.
00:29:20BRENDA I'm glad that Ron said that because. (crosstalk)
00:29:25PEG CARROLL Ron is right here.(crosstalk)
00:29:25BRENDA I'm glad you said that, Ron because when, when Peg said to me that you want me to protect her, I, you know what, I have a problem with that. Uhm. (crosstalk)
00:29:35PEG CARROLL You, you couldn't tell me that, huh?
00:29:40BRENDA I'll tell you that.
00:29:40PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:29:40BRENDA I'll tell you that I did. I had trouble with you saying that you, that I want you to protect me.
00:29:45PEG CARROLL But it was hard to say it then. It's easier now.
00:29:50BRENDA Yes, it's probably easier because I heard from other people and I just feel even more relaxed... (crosstalk)
00:29:55PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:29:55BRENDA ...than I did before.(crosstalk)
00:29:55PEG CARROLL Uh hmm.
00:29:55BRENDA Because I'd really feel that it's okay for me to trust you with that. I, I feel it's okay for Peg to have some, some of that power in order to, to be the leader of this group. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing for me. I, I'm just wondering what Denuda... (crosstalk)
00:30:15DENUDA I think, (crosstalk)
00:30:15BRENDA ...can say.
00:30:15DENUDA ah, I think you're comfortable, ah, with the statement you are making. Ah, (crosstalk)
00:30:20BRENDA I'm comfortable, you mean?
00:30:20DENUDA comfortable, although, uhm, I think, ah, I, I see the group and I trust Peg and I trust you. Ah, I trust you Brenda and I don't know, I don't know what you're asking me for.
00:30:45BRENDA I guess. (crosstalk)
00:30:45PEG CARROLL Okay let's stop. may IU ask you, what's happening? (inaudible )
00:30:50 I mean our struggles with authority issues.
00:30:50PEG CARROLL Okay. What does that mean, power struggles, authority issues? Anyone? Jim?
00:30:55JIM What is the leader's role. (crosstalk)
00:30:55PEG CARROLL What is the leader's role. Good. All right. What is, what is it that the leader was doing in here? I'm, I'm saying what am I doing here?
00:31:05JIM Okay, you said, I think you're drawing the issues there.
00:31:05PEG CARROLL Uh hmm.
00:31:10DENUDA Uh hmm.
00:31:10PEG CARROLL Drawing the issue. I mean what's the issue? I mean you said something. What's the issue, Pat?
00:31:15PAT We can get beyond of being a client to being good participants to the tape in order to put the group again.
00:31:20PEG CARROLL Okay. And you said this on earlier. Debbie?
00:31:20DEBBIE You want them to become more aware of each other... (crosstalk)
00:31:25PEG CARROLL All right.
00:31:25DEBBIE ...and move away from there a little bit.
00:31:25PEG CARROLL A little bit?
00:31:25DEBBIE No, a lot.
00:31:25PEG CARROLL Okay. Who in the group, now, well I don't want to ask that yet. Ah, if it's important for you to watch and see who's doing what? All right. Who's doing what in the group? What is it that, that, that, ah, must be resolved here. This is another theoretical issue in terms of dealing a group or one that is very important to me. It may not be important to all leaders but for me to have, to have long term goals. But for me to reach those long term goals, I also have other goals. Certain things that I want to create to happen so the group can move on. What is it that I'm creating him? A thought? Yeah, put your hand this way a little bit when you do. All right, we don't know, whether this we will know. Ingrid, yeah?
00:32:10INGRID Group cohesiveness.(crosstalk)
00:32:10PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:32:10INGRID It's when, when Denuda challenged you, and that forced other people to decide. In doing, relationship would have found.
00:32:15PEG CARROLL Okay. But, that's fine. However, group cohesiveness is something a little different than the challenge is right... (crosstalk)
00:32:25INGRID Uh-huh.
00:32:25PEG CARROLL ...when there the challenge was made, what am I doing that let's the group.
00:32:30EVELYN I see modeling... (crosstalk)
00:32:30PEG CARROLL Evelyn.
00:32:30EVELYN ...going on.
00:32:30PEG CARROLL All right. Okay.
00:32:30EVELYN And the modeling that I'm hearing is that you're saying, first of all, thanking her. Thank you for saying you're resentful.
00:32:40PEG CARROLL Good.
00:32:40EVELYN So it's perfectly okay to be resentful and said that you, ah, just broaden your whole horizon, what feelings are... (crosstalk)
00:32:45PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:32:45EVELYN ...permitted for this group. But I, at the same time, you're saying you people are, I feel this and you're saying to Brenda, uhm, you know, I feel you attempted about filling it up because you're giving her, kind of, ah, pointed comments to extend your feelings of, first, can I stay here and second, it's, it's more than superficial. (crosstalk)
00:33:00PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:33:05EVELYN And that's so that's a little piece of the modeling. And finally you're saying, don't keep looking at me. Don't give me the power, look to yourselves. You are real people. You're throwing back all that power. Each of you have as much power as I am, I feel like your saying. And every time they keep going back to you, you keep saying, "No, no, no, you don't have to come back to me. I don't want it to be mutual, uhm, safe giver. Make yourself safe. Give it to each other."
00:33:25PEG CARROLL Okay. All right. Now, as a leader, the group, can the group at this point yet move on? Yes or no. You don't know yet? All right, let me change that. Certain things must me resolved before, even the group says let's be a group, is it ready to be a group? Any thoughts? Anita.
00:33:50ANITA If you're talking about they becoming a group, (crosstalk)
00:33:55PEG CARROLL All right.
00:33:55ANITA they have to work through first.
00:33:55PEG CARROLL All right. What is it they have to work through from my perspective right now? You mentioned it, I think it was Betty. What is it they have to work through, Betty? The very, very first.
00:34:05BETTY The authority.
00:34:05PEG CARROLL The authority. All right. Now, what, do you know what I mean by that, the authority issues? Helen.
00:34:10HELEN Well, it seemed like the two things that have been going on is their issue of trust and authority, and I think during the, during the first part everybody was talking about how to trust. (crosstalk)
00:34:20PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:34:20HELEN There were, and how much they trusted you. And then started challenging you and, and playing around the issue of whether they probably trust or they don't want you to have all the power. And so I am talking about that.
00:34:35PEG CARROLL When a group such as this group and many people have said, I trust, I trust I trust each other. I trust people. That's a danger signal. That's a term that begins with R. What is it? Resistance. All right. When you hear them, I trust everything. Do you think that people by their nature trust everybody and everything? No. No, they don't. So let's look at the authority issue. Do you think that each person in this group has resolved this? As a leader if you were sitting here and you said, this is our goal, I've got to get this out in the open. Do you feel that everyone has resolved this? You don't, all right. Who here do you think has resolved it the most? Anyone?
00:35:20 Denuda.
00:35:20PEG CARROLL Denuda. Okay. Now, let's go back.
00:35:25BRENDA Jean, when, when you spoke before I missed it because I was concentrating with Denuda. But stuff with me I really wanted to move on and say because I felt like, we just met and you must understand something else happened with me.
00:35:40JEAN Well, I feel like I want to, I want to know. I, I have a sense of you. I want to know more of you and really welcome you in. And I'm, I'm aware that I'm trusting people differently and this whole issue is, ah, it feels like it's in the way. So when you said I like to resolve this too, I thought it was the only thing I could think of, you know that.
00:36:05PEG CARROLL So, there is something in the way here.
00:36:05JEAN There is definitely something... (crosstalk)
00:36:05PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:36:05JEAN ...in the way.
00:36:10PEG CARROLL You got your hand on it?
00:36:10JEAN Well, it's, uhm, I feel that you're neutral. I really feel that. So when you said something about the group not being a group, I did get it and it affected me. But the clues from this people have much more.
00:36:25PEG CARROLL But where are your feeling is because I am concerned about you.
00:36:25JEAN Okay. So I was very tentative and then... (crosstalk)
00:36:30PEG CARROLL Where are you now? Let's not go back. Let's stay right here. Where are you right now?
00:36:35JEAN ...I'm not, I don't feel so trusted in here.
00:36:35PEG CARROLL You're not trusted?
00:36:35JEAN No, because... (crosstalk)
00:36:35PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:36:35JEAN ...I don't know anybody else with my sense of, of what's important. There's something more important to me than the words you say.
00:36:45PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:36:45JEAN It's the feelings that I get from the people here.
00:36:45PEG CARROLL Good. (crosstalk)
00:36:50JEAN And, (crosstalk)
00:36:50PEG CARROLL And then (inaudible )
00:36:52JEAN and I wanna hear more from them. And those feelings were the only one so far and some from Denuda that appeal to me and Jenny. I heard from Jenny too that I felt very comfortable and very safe. And, (crosstalk)
00:37:00PEG CARROLL Very real.
00:37:00JEAN and very real. And I can feel I'll go with that. If I had a choice between Peg's words and the feelings from these people, I'd go, I knew if someone here said that, I was right there. It was very clear on where, (inaudible ) you know. It validates my feelings because this feeling place to me. So Brenda, I, I, and I sense there's something here and especially if you are sensing something (inaudible )
00:37:26PEG CARROLL You're not feeling Maryanne's presence. You're not feeling Brenda's. (crosstalk)
00:37:30JEAN Well, I feel, I'm feeling yours slowly and as more things happen in here. So I was happy you said that because I want to, and I'm not sure what's happening about it. I don't feel you're real sometimes.
00:37:45MARYANNE Hmm, interesting. Uhm, (crosstalk)
00:37:45PEG CARROLL What's happening? You said interesting.
00:37:45MARYANNE I don't know. I don't know what's happening because all of a sudden I was feeling very tired now, and that's not like that you would, but I'm, I'm really feeling tired and you threaten me tremendously.
00:38:00JEAN Well, I, I like to hear from you.(crosstalk)
00:38:00MARYANNE Yes.
00:38:00JEAN You're, you're much more important to me.
00:38:05MARYANNE Yeah.
00:38:05JEAN It's, that's, I think that's what's... (crosstalk)
00:38:05MARYANNE Yeah.
00:38:05JEAN ...upsetting me.
00:38:05MARYANNE Yeah.
00:38:05JEAN Our feelings here and yours too. You know, I, I have good vibes sometimes. I'd like to hear from you. (crosstalk)
00:38:15MARYANNE Yeah.
00:38:15JEAN I'd like to hear how you feel. I'd like to, uhm, join you. This thing is, uhm, (crosstalk)
00:38:20MARYANNE Uh hmm.
00:38:20JEAN it's in your way and it's in my way of knowing this somehow, so.
00:38:25MARYANNE I didn't realize you're the only one that I feel threatened by and I feel you're very cognitive. I don't know what's going on I think, but I, I want to withdraw. And it's not gonna, I don't think it's that I don't trust everyone. I think I'm afraid of my own feelings. I think I'm very vulnerable.
00:38:40BRENDA When you said that to Maryanne, when you said, is it Maryanne, I want to almost jump in. I know when you talk about feeling, ah, or by just being vulnerable, it just, it just really hit me very hard.
00:38:55PEG CARROLL Let's see if anyone else has her feelings?
00:39:00RON I, I agree when Brenda at one point. Maryanne, when you were talking to Jean, I wanted to jump in. My feeling is that you were, you were judging. (crosstalk)
00:39:10PEG CARROLL Oh, wait a minute. Okay, hold it. Ah, you're not gonna do it, I'd rather that you did not describe Jean's behavior but that you talk about yourself only.
00:39:20RON I, maybe I, what I'm trying to say is I felt hurt that you would single out certain people of who to trust was and then somebody who you didn't trust.
00:39:40PEG CARROLL Are you talking about yourself?
00:39:40RON Well, I wasn't included in the list.
00:39:45PEG CARROLL Yeah. Okay. We left you out.
00:39:45RON Yeah, you left me out.
00:39:45PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:39:45RON But when Jean what you told Maryanne, it does, it added more ammunition more to my feelings and they, they came up more to the surface much more rapidly than they probably would have.
00:39:55PEG CARROLL Where are you in relation to Jean right now?
00:40:05RON I guess instead of if you don't want to trust me and I'm questioning should I trust you?
00:40:15JEAN I'm not really happy about that. Uhm, I don't, I don't feel with you right now as I'm feeling with Maryanne and... (crosstalk)
00:40:35PEG CARROLL You're not connecting in the same way really, is what you're saying, but you are feeling it with Maryanne.
00:40:35JEAN it felt something and she showed it, and I got it.
00:40:40PEG CARROLL You were touched.
00:40:45JEAN Yeah.
00:40:45MARYANNE I guess it, ah, surprised me when you said that, what I heard you saying was you're not real, that (inaudible ) was real. And I heard you say something before, Art, that my tendency is to trust people right away.
00:41:05ART Uh-huh.
00:41:05MARYANNE And my tendency is to do that and I can get hurt a lot. Sometimes I feel I'm too open immediately and that, that makes me vulnerable, you know, and sometimes, first, I don't, I don't think I give a good impression exactly on me. So when you were saying that, it just kind of I guess reaffirmed that with me.
00:41:30JEAN That's not what I meant. I am sorry that it came across like that. I'm really sorry. If anything, my need was to feel you there and, and, we, you know, you're right, we somehow caught and this issue is, you know, is trying my patience. (crosstalk)
00:41:50MARYANNE Yeah.
00:41:50JEAN Well, where have you been all these years, I mean you, and, you know, and I don't know these yet and, you know, that time is going by. So that was not what, when I said I didn't feel so real to me. That's not the sense that I meant it.
00:42:00MARYANNE But it helped me to know that I was being real. You know, I'm impatient like you. I can feel that.
00:42:10PEG CARROLL What I'd like to find out now is where you are? Where is the group right now? I'm not sure. Would you tell, would you state who you are connecting with the members of this group? Anyone begin, who you're connecting with?
00:42:25ART I'm connecting with Jean and Maryanne. I really didn't want you to go away from the group and I began to get a feeling that it's the group beginning to leave me. And, and I didn't want that to happen.
00:42:40PEG CARROLL Anyone else want to say who you're connecting?
00:42:45DENUDA Art, I can relate with you.
00:42:45PEG CARROLL Oh, there, hold a minute. Without, I just want you to say who you're connecting with without describing, and that we can come back to that... (crosstalk)
00:42:55DENUDA I think... (crosstalk)
00:42:55PEG CARROLL ...who to connect. (crosstalk)
00:42:55DENUDA ...I could with Maryanne.
00:42:55PEG CARROLL Can we hear from all of you?
00:43:00LUCY I connect with Maryanne too. When you picked up your chair and physical moved out of the circle, something inside of me went oops. And something inside of me wanted to do the same but I could feel you pulling away. And when you mentioned the word vulnerable, that touched me. And I could see, it's visible, it's touching you too. (crosstalk)
00:43:20PEG CARROLL Well, I think... (crosstalk)
00:43:20LUCY That was my impression.
00:43:20PEG CARROLL ...I don't remember what you thought but I like those to come out of the discussion like I said.
00:43:25DENUDA There was a moment when, ah, I think I resolved the issue with what is okay in this group and what has never came in this group by what happened between Jean and Maryanne. I was a part of the discussion and, or expressing your feelings and I'm very glad, Maryanne, that you moved in back to the group and then you told Jean how you felt, because there was a moment when I felt like, Oh to say where I am sometimes to somebody else maybe won't be okay. I could hurt somebody... (crosstalk)
00:44:05MARYANNE Yeah.
00:44:05DENUDA ...you know. So when you returned to the group, I already, I feel comfortable right now with this. It seems okay to be both ways.
00:44:15PEG CARROLL Both ways how?
00:44:15DENUDA I mean, to be yourself no matter where you are right now.
00:44:20PEG CARROLL Oh, no matter where I am?
00:44:20DENUDA I.
00:44:20PEG CARROLL Yeah, okay. Where are the rest of you connecting?
00:44:25BRENDA I do with Denuda right now, a lot, because of what you just said knowing that I'm also like that. Almost like I want to open right now. I mean. (crosstalk)
00:44:40PEG CARROLL Denuda has helped you?
00:44:40BRENDA Yeah.
00:44:40JEAN I'm, I'm connecting with almost everybody but what I haven't resolved with Ron yet.
00:44:45RON Okay.
00:44:50PEG CARROLL Go ahead.
00:44:50JEAN Well, uhm, I didn't hear some more opinions from you when we started that I have with that. It's not unusual. I mean, I'm used to that. But I don't, I'm not hearing what you want from me on a feeling level. I'm hearing that you have to be included. You want me to include you when I, whatever it was I did at that particular moment. And I, uhm, I don't know how to respond to that. Every word you said, well you left me out. And I, that happens to be one of the things I have a lot of trouble with. So that didn't make me more like reaching out, whereas what Maryanne did, didn't make me feel more like reaching out.
00:45:45MARYANNE I feel totally in different way about you now. I feel like there's something that, that was, there was a barrier that's gone, you know.
00:45:55JEAN Definitely.
00:45:55MARYANNE So I'm glad that you said what you think. So it was being in front of that or, you know, they got me back in the group. So I thank you for it.
00:46:05JEAN Thank you.
00:46:05PEG CARROLL Well, can we stop here for a minute? This is what I, you may have some questions but you may have some observations. I guess what I'd like you to talk about is what's happening? What are you seeing? Eileen
00:46:20EILEEN They're working on the solution on conflicting, potential conflicting. Well, helping people to confront each other about their feelings, about each other.
00:46:30PEG CARROLL Well, you said about resolution of conflict. Now, I don't really think you mean I don't want people. I want people to resolve all their conflicts. That's not what you mean, do you?
00:46:40EILEEN No. What I, what I mean is you want to bring forward their issues with each other.
00:46:45PEG CARROLL All right. Okay.
00:46:45EILEEN But not that they need to resolve them but get them on the table... (crosstalk)
00:46:45PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:46:45EILEEN ...and get that out, and let it be a normal. But if you say... (crosstalk)
00:46:50PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:46:50EILEEN ...you can in fact confront.
00:46:50PEG CARROLL Okay. What else do you see? Anybody?
00:46:55 Uhm, I have a question here.
00:46:55PEG CARROLL Sure, hmm.
00:47:00 Can we ask some questions?
00:47:00PEG CARROLL Yeah
00:47:00 Why did you ask Ron don't describe Jean's behavior at this time. What is your point in there?
00:47:05PEG CARROLL Okay. All right. That, maybe, someone on the outside could answer it. What, you're gonna say, Jim.
00:47:10JIM It's setting a norm for feedback... (crosstalk)
00:47:15PEG CARROLL All right. Okay.
00:47:15JIM ...and that when you get feedback, your reaction is not the same as the other person.
00:47:20PEG CARROLL Good. We have two things that was said. One is labeling which is something that we want to avoid. The leader wants to avoid any labeling whatsoever. And also, it's setting the norm for the behavior. Now, the norms that you set as leader are very deliberate. Deliberate, deliberate, deliberate until you are sure the group knows the norms. Now, there are, in terms of the norm, norm setting. They're not discreet, which things, you cannot predict how things are gonna happen. What often happens with a group is they start getting mad all the time, You gave one thing we can do in the beginning, now you're telling us how do we have to behave all the way through. That's what I'm saying to you in terms of the norm is set. The question, Evelyn's question about why did you not let the behavior be described is a very definite norm. There's another one. Who asked earlier about questions? Earlier, way back, you said you're not letting questions being asked. What's the norm for that, Helen? What's your thought on it?
00:48:15HELEN Well, its' not asking question because of what Pat said earlier on owning your feeling that's been described and listening to, to the labeling.
00:48:25PEG CARROLL Right. And it's very important to point out to the members your question is related to you. Now, when you say that to someone, what happens to the person? Anyone who wants to respond to that? What happens to the group member when I say that?
00:48:40 They go inside and think about themselves.
00:48:45PEG CARROLL They go back to themselves, which removes it from. Now, let's look at the same thing in terms of, yeah, Helen?
00:48:50 It goes through a, it takes the person who's been questioned off the spot.
00:48:55PEG CARROLL Okay. Good. It takes them off the hook. Which then gives a norm back to the group. You are not going to be questioned. Now, let's get back to, yeah, Evelyn?
00:49:05EVELYN I want to just say something I think that was lovely that you did. You were fair... (crosstalk)
00:49:05PEG CARROLL I was fair. (crosstalk)
00:49:10EVELYN ...when you said, well, Lucy, I gave, sometime Lucy got a chance to talk and you said wait a minute but can you give others, give you the chance.
00:49:15PEG CARROLL Okay.
00:49:15EVELYN Therefore, I will be fair to each of you. I'm not playing safe with this.
00:49:20PEG CARROLL All right.
00:49:20EVELYN I think the issue of fairness is vital to the group and it's a norm itself, yes.
00:49:20PEG CARROLL That's another norm. That's right. You see, as you're leading, you're thinking I am modeling, I'm gonna let them know what I'm going to do all the time. Now, in the beginning, the leaders are very active. The leader has to, in fact, the leader probably should be saying more words than the members because you're setting the stage. You're setting the stage. Later on, when this group starts moving along, they'll be less setting the stage.
00:49:45PEG CARROLL Sure.
00:49:50 When you did the who's connected to who... (crosstalk)
00:49:50PEG CARROLL Yeah.
00:49:50 and sort of shows you the impact.
00:49:55PEG CARROLL Sure.
00:49:55 I'm not sure what do you make of that?
00:50:00PEG CARROLL Perception? Good question. Because this what often happens. When you let two people go on too long, you'll lose a group. And I was beginning to worry about the group itself. And the important thing is, two things. The group is in here and now but if you only stay in the here and now, the group will really leave here and go wow, was that a good experience? But the learning takes place sooner than the interpretation of the process. This is what Young talks about, calling, reflecting the self reflected loop he talks about when you start reflecting back. But if you've reflect too soon, you'll lose the here and now. So, you have to teach the group to be in the here and now. The self reflected loop is impossible yet because I'm still setting the stage and the group must be, must be a, it's interactional, I would say. But is it a social micro cause of itself yet? Not yet. No. Any other questions or comments? Yeah.
00:50:55EILEEN About physically having people being very close together so they're almost touching knees. I'm not sure when Maryanne said I don't like touching our knee or whatever, I need to move back. Is that because in fact they're too physically close and that's threatening? That's how part of how I interpret it that it was too much to ask them... (crosstalk)
00:51:20PEG CARROLL Uh-huh.
00:51:20EILEEN ...to get that close so soon? Is that what you think.
00:51:20PEG CARROLL Right. Well, a lot of things occurred in that. That is my need as a leader. Not every leader, some leaders would give a lot of space. I find it very difficult to operate unless its' close so it's only my own need. The other part is that Maryanne was saying you're very important Peg. You're proper but boy, did she do it. The only one. As Lucy said, she disobeyed the rules. You moved back, I didn't. But I wanted to do it. And Maryanne says, you know, that's why I moved back, the heck with you I'm gonna do it anyway. Because she was uncomfortable. But if the whole group started doing that, I'm not sure what I would do. But I would like it to happen because then there's a real dealing with the authority in the group. The authority issue in itself that has, has to be dealt with. Did I answer your answer question, all right?
00:52:00EILEEN Yes.
00:52:00EVELYN Do you want my comment?
00:52:05PEG CARROLL Anything. Sure.
00:52:05EVELYN Okay. One of the things I observed is you did not take the bait. Remember people used to work impatient and there's a clear message like let's do something else, let's move on. There was just no way you're really gonna kick that out and say okay let's keep going. You have those issues to resolve in a group of people you want to solidify. And I think, you know, you say I don't wanna be premature. So, even though everybody's tantalizing with these little words, you know, people (inaudible )
00:52:31PEG CARROLL That has to do with goals, you see. You have to have goals but your goals are processed goals. Now, you have a few little people goals too. You look at the people and say I can count on that one. This person is resistant. I can intimidate this person. I mean, you know, it's how I might use human loss to people purposely, because I know that I can risk that with each group. So, I'm deciding about people but that is something that changes with every group you work with. The process doesn't change. You're, you're, not that every group works. Believe me, they don't. That's something that that's very important for you to know that many times, and I've had many, that just absolutely failed. No matter how much experience you have, that doesn't mean that its' all gonna work. But in terms of your experienced, what is important for you to do is to have some theoretical notion about where you're moving along. In the long run, I'm looking for certain things that you incurred. But there's one thing that I'm looking for about all else, and it's really an existential notion. For me, it's enough. And it's for people to be authentic. That's the only thing that I'm looking for. Now, the (inaudible ) say that groups have, He writes about groups that have very very goals, and that is to change some kind of behavior that they have here in the group. With some people have talked about, they've said this is a problem for me. A few people said that. And then to make personalitychange, that I'm happy enough that if the person has a sense of authenticity and then feels then that they can move on, in transfer that outside, that's enough. I think its' very important when you're running a group that you not have goals that are so high. I learned to have fewer and fewer and fewer expectations. I don't mean goals. My expectations are very low. And, but you see, authenticity is really not a low expectations. That's a big expectation. Have you seen anyone out, yeah, Gail?
00:54:25GAIL When you're talking about authenticity, I, it appears that you must be walking some kind of a tight rope because a lot of times you immediately reinforce some behavior that you see. But I don't think we can assume that you don't reinforce behavior that you're not thinking at the top in it. I have a sense that they were several times that I wanna say I think this person is talking words that they think they should be saying, they've had some experience saying those kinds of things and I think that's what the group wanted, wants to hear.
00:55:00PEG CARROLL Wants to hear.
00:55:00GAIL Other times, I get a sense that it's authentic. How do you move the group toward authenticity?
00:55:05PEG CARROLL With a ladder. Yeah. If a person does not understand that he or she is intellectualizing, I'm gonna hammer and hammer and hammer them to death. And finally, that you see, I do a lot of the work for the group in the beginning, and then the group works itself. And how I resolve that? If you bag to anyone too long, you'll lose them. So sometimes you have to let something go. And eventually, the group members are not ready to say hey stop talking, you're in a hit. You're in a hit. Any questions or comments you wanna make about the process at this point? Okay. Lets' take a break. Oh wait a minute. Ingrid last question here. Okay.
00:55:45INGRID While I was listening to this whole a lot of questions, I was thinking in my head that, uhm, how interesting was that at the beginning people have said, Oh I'm trusting and trusting and it was like I knew that many of these people have had experience in groups before and felt they trust the group process. But then when you push the issue with them individually, that there's been a lot of distrust as well. And I was thinking that you are forcing them to shift. They say it's generally global trusted you to really checking one another out. (crosstalk)
00:56:10PEG CARROLL Right.
00:56:10INGRID And then they're finding the hand, I'm not also trusting this one or that one. It's been that's where the work is happening. I always thought at one point I would have, my feeling would have been to move on and then I realize that had, had you moved on based on their trust at you, they would have never really had the foundation to move on.
00:56:30PEG CARROLL Correct. I am really, that's important. And really what the long term goal is when this group is through, that they will walk away and not remember anything I said or did to help them but they will remember each other. You see, that's the long term goal. When ever, as I said earlier, whenever your group say I'm very trusting, I said it was a danger signal. What did I, remember what I said it was? What's the word?
00:57:00 Resistance.
00:57:00PEG CARROLL Resistance from the group. Which is normal natural resistance but all, what I'm doing, Oh it is a nice safe friendly group. Those who scare me to death. They really like to have a rabble rouser. You want something who can (inaudible ) was gonna screw things up all the time. Nice people do not make interesting groups. And at that point, we'll stop and have a break. Okay?
00:57:20Coming Next in Part II: The group re-assessing goals the group in transition The group in flight Cameras Elaine Schiavone Becky Schumacher Production Assistant Patrick Murphy, Ph. D. Director/Content Expert Rona Weinstein Observers/Reactors Ingrid Boedecker Deborah D. Brown James Dipisia, Ph. D. Anita Hiranandani Evelyn Kurtzberg, Ph. D. Eileen Matthay, Ph. D. Gail Morris Patrick Murphy, Ph. D. Helen Sgouros Producer Marguerite R. Carroll, Ed. D. Produced by the Association for Specialists in Group Work in Cooperation with the Fairfield University Media Center, Fairfield, Connecticut
00:57:20END TRANSCRIPT
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