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TranscriptIntegrativePsychotherapyforaCollegeStudentCopingWithFamilyConflict.docxIntegrative Psychotherapy for a College Student Coping With Family Conflict
1: Opening the Session
Welcome back, Desiree. DESIREE: Hello. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Well, here we
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[00:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSare again. I'm, um – I'm always curious when I meet someone for the second time what your thoughts and feelings were about the very first time we met.
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[00:15] DESIREEUm, over all, I'd say we got off to a good start. Good foundation of understanding. Um -- JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[00:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSI'm pleased you felt that. Um, I felt that on my side as well. Which is always a good indicator. I – and then we just got to know each other. We have an ambitious, uh, therapy agenda. DESIREE: Yes.
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[00:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSOne of those things on our agenda, uh, if I recall correctly, uh, sort of your homework, was that you were going to reflect on your preferences. That is, how you could tailor or individualize therapy, um, to you. You know, if my years of experience have taught me anything it's that, uh, self aware clients like you, pretty much know how you can best be served. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, could you tell me a little bit about, um, how good therapy will work for you.
1 minute 20 seconds DESIREE
[01:20] DESIREEI think that it'll give me the – the tool I need to better understand and better handle stressful situations. And dealing with obstacles that come up in my life. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: Whether it be daily or something that's very unexpected. Things like that.
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[01:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd so you'd prefer that I be fairly active up front in those things. DESIREE:
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[01:50] DESIREEYes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. I know you said last time you're comfortable --
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[01:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSin fact you'd like to try things between sessions. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yup. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: All right. So I should be active, um, I should be following your agenda and – and we seem to have one we both share. And things important to you. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, what would be the worst thing or two as a psychotherapist I could do. DESIREE: Um, I would
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[02:20] DESIREEsay, maybe be not like help to look at things in other ways. Or maybe even be judgmental. I don't -- JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[02:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSSo the first one if I'm hearing that right is somewhat passive. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Just sitting back and not giving you new tools or -- DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- or new perspectives. DESIREE: Right.
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[02:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd the second one is to sit in judgment. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That's a nasty feeling. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. Well I pledge to try to avoid those two. I hope on your end you'll pledge, uh, to speak up if you think I may have inadvertently done either of those. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Fair enough. DESIREE: Fair enough.
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[03:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd that really is the difference in – in a significant way between psychotherapy and say more conventional medical treatment. Here we're co-creating, uh, the direction. And you can help guide me at times. DESIREE:
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[03:30] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, if we ever feel we're not quite aligned that we can have an open discussion about that.
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[03:35] DESIREERight. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. So,
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[03:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSwe – we decided on individual therapy. Once a week. It felt like the connection was strong enough, uh, to continue. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I should be active, offering you tools, new perspectives, avoiding judgment and passivity. DESIREE: Right.
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[03:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSAll right. I'm pretty sure I can do that. DESIREE: Okay. Good.
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[04:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSSo let's jump in. Um, I know we had lots to talk about last week. DESIREE:
2: Exploring the Presenting Problem
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[04:05] DESIREEIndeed. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Would you, um – what do you feel like working on today. DESIREE: Well, in the last week or so, um, like I had told you before about my mom. She – she and my brother actually are kind of, once again targeting me in a way by saying, I don't contribute to my home life at all.
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[04:40] DESIREEAnd, I disagree entirely because growing up I always had chores to do. Responsibilities always to take care of. And sometimes it feels like even though I have two siblings and we all live in the same house, we're being raised differently.
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[05:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm-hmm. DESIREE: Because my younger brother and my younger sister do not have
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[05:10] DESIREEthe same amount of responsibility. And so for them to come at me this week and say, you're not contributing or you don't do anything. I was just astonished. Because I am in college. I have two jobs. And I do what I can when I have time. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And that targeting accusation not only
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[05:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSastonishes you, but I can – can see in your eyes, uh, that one really pummels you, doesn't it. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So distonishes you, sort of as a thought. But in – inside it's really quite painful that -- DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- would say that. And how are you handling that? DESIREE: Um,
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[06:05] DESIREEobviously it upsets me. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm.
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[06:10] JOHN C. NORCROSSThere's a tissue. DESIREE: Because, it just seemed that
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[06:15] DESIREEI had an entirely different outlook on all of it. As far as housework and taking care of things that I needed to take care of. Um -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: And it felt like nothing
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[06:35] JOHN C. NORCROSScould be further from the – your experience. DESIREE: Right.
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[06:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSYou have the burden of being the oldest child, between two parents. Working two jobs while trying to keep your grades going. DESIREE: Correct. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And on top of that they expect more of you and then they have, uh, the -- the nerve to – to say you're not pulling your weight. DESIREE: Right. It just didn't make sense.
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[07:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSIt doesn't make sense the way you think about it. And yet from what you told me last week, sadly, it – it seems like the continuation of a pattern in which they're singling you out.
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[07:15] DESIREERight. I just don't feel that I deserve it.
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[07:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm-hmm. DESIREE: Because my brother and I are only
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[07:30] DESIREEfour years apart. And he – when I was his age I was doing a lot more than he is now. And for him to come say that, just really bothered me.
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[07:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnother word for that may be, angry. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Did you have that experience. DESIREE:
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[07:55] DESIREEUm-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. And was that largely inside of you or did you
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[08:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSexpress it assertively to your brother or mother? DESIREE: Um,
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[08:05] DESIREEwell like, ex – expression of how I'm feeling is not the easiest thing in my family. So for the most part I did keep it in. JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[08:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSI see. Swallow it, for a lack of a better word. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. You – you mentioned when we first met that usually when you would express it, even if somewhat calmly, there's not much of a receptive ear. DESIREE: No. JOHN C. NORCROSS: It feels quite invalidating and telling you that's not true. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: You don't get it. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So that's that caught between, uh, rock and a hard place, again. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: There's a part of you that would like to have healthy assertion and say let's sit down and really talk about this. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: But you know that doesn't work.
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[08:50] DESIREENope. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And now you're learning though, if you swallow the anger, the resentment and the hurt,
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[08:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSyou end up taking it out on yourself. DESIREE: Um-hum. Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. Now you think about yourself and relate to others. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Is that pretty much how it goes?
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[09:05] DESIREEUm-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: It's quite a dilemma. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I mean, it has worked well,
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[09:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSDesiree. That is, when you felt strong in saying I feel fairly confident in myself, and at least I'll assert myself. So that I know I'm speaking up for myself, even if they don't believe me. What happens then? DESIREE: Um,
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[09:35] DESIREEwhen that kind of thing happens they'll either make a mockery of it or just not even pay any attention to what I have to say. And then -- JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[09:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSSo either they'll mock you on the one hand or ignore you on the other. DESIREE: Right.
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[10:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSThat repeated dozens of times.
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[10:05] DESIREEUm-hmm. Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So now my mind
3: Coping Strategies
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[10:10] JOHN C. NORCROSSimmediately goes to, um, the tools, the new perspectives you're looking for.
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[10:15] DESIREEYeah. How do I -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: How do
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[10:20] JOHN C. NORCROSSyou respond in an impossible situation? DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I think we need a wise man on top of the mountain for this.
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[10:30] DESIREEYeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Well, you're
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[10:35] JOHN C. NORCROSS– your capacity to view this, I – I think really does suggest several ways forward. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, are you fairly convinced, um, that you know this is how your family's going to be. DESIREE: Yes. And
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[10:55] DESIREEI know that it's not going to change. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I'm glad
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[11:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSto hear that. In fact, uh, the first rule of psychotherapy as told me by my first supervisors, uh, was a fascinating discussion. Um, he said so what's the first rule of psychotherapy. We're all shouting answers like be empathic, be nice., DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Caring. Um, he said, no you're all wrong. The first rule of psychotherapy is we don't change other people. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, and that immediately flashed into my mind as you're talking. That you at least intellectually get this I can't change my father, I can't change my mother. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I need to be teaching myself. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And if I can do that, uh, effectively, I'll feel better. Indirectly they may respond to how I'm different. But ultimately, you'll be helping yourself.
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[11:50] DESIREERight. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So one tool as you call it, would be acceptance. DESIREE: Okay.
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[11:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSYou're in a – a maddening situation. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Okay. Another tool that immediately came to mind and that you anticipated, was assertion. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, that is asserting so you can express, um, this maddening conflict. Um, for example saying, just as you said to me, I'm working two jobs. I'm going to college. I have the burden of being the oldest. I think I'm more than pulling my weight. And when I compare what I've done uh, at your age, I – I think I'm doing quite a lot. DESIREE: Right.
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[12:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd again, going back to the first law of psychotherapy. That may not change their behavior. But it might make you feel a little less caught and more confident.
12 minutes 50 seconds DESIREE
[12:50] DESIREERight. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Do you think that might be the case? DESIREE: Um, in a way. Because I do feel good about myself. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: That I can handle the responsibility of it all. But, there's just never any kind of reinforcement that that -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. DESIREE: -- that I'm doing well.
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[13:20] JOHN C. NORCROSSThere's not that, boy you really are taking on a lot.
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[13:25] DESIREEUm-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Maybe you should back off. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: You've come to understand intellectually
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[13:30] JOHN C. NORCROSSthat's not forthcoming from these folks. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That may be forthcoming from me another friend. And eventually quite frequently from yourself. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: All right. So, I – I hope we'll find moments, as timing is everything on these, uh, matters, that you'll find moments to say that. Accepting there may not be validation. There may not be support your assertion. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: But that you know you're doing it for yourself. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right.
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[14:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSWell, and that leads to something else that – that popped up. Are there other people uh, supporting you in this? DESIREE: Um,
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[14:15] DESIREEmy friends. Since we – we all kind of grew up in a good area where like, there's a good schools, it's a good neighborhood. And a lot of my other friends their parents tend to do maybe not a lot for them but more than my parents offer to do or are capable of. And when they see that I'm doing different things on my own -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: -- like, paying for car insurance. I – I didn't have a car unless I could pay for car insurance, and gas and maintenance. Where a few friends of mine got nice new shiny cars. Didn't pay the insurance, didn't pay for the gas. And so, for them to see me do it all on my own, they – they do appreciate it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: They acknowledge that. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[15:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd – and that's that warm, uh, fuzzy feeling that other people -- DESIREE:
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[15:30] DESIREEYeah it's a good feeling. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- see how you're working. And are there times that
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[15:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSyou – you will go get that from your friends? DESIREE:
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[15:40] DESIREEUm, I don't seek it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: But when it's acknowledged than that's when I feel good about it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And then that's a
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[15:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSpowerful warm fuzzy. DESIREE: Um-hmm.
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[15:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSSo we have, um, I – I'm thinking about I – I love your metaphor. Maybe it's an analogy, I always get those confused. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Of the tool box. So we have acceptance that my parents and my brothers are this way. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: We have the assertion when you find a time. Knowing that it's for you to give voice to yourself.
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[16:20] DESIREEYeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: We have, uh, receiving and perhaps I would even
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[16:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSencourage just a little bit more speaking to friends about how you feel trapped this way. Not in the poor me. But in the you know, friends support each other. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: They recognize, um, all these life difficulties. And – and the other one that comes to mind is – is for a lack of a better term, self talk. Um, how you're processing and soothing yourself during there difficult times. So,
4: Positive Self-Talk
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[16:57] JOHN C. NORCROSSwell, perhaps we'll just, sort of do a quick, um, like a role play or exercise.
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[17:05] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So I'll be your brother. Uh, who along with your mother told you,
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[17:10] JOHN C. NORCROSSyou know, you're not pulling your weight around here. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: You're dumping it all on us. And we're tired of it. You need to do more. What are the immediate thoughts and feelings that come over you? DESIREE: Immediately I think to myself,
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[17:25] DESIREEwhat more could you want me to do. If I'm already so independent and then I do my part. And then, I – it does anger me -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: -- because when I was my brother's age I was doing more than he is now. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And it's a double standard again. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. Feeling, yes.
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[17:55] DESIREESo, immediately I am offended --
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[18:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm-hmm. DESIREE: -- in a way. And thinking what else could you possibly want me to do.
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[18:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSRight. So I'm listening to you and I'm, uh, quite gratified that you're sort of fighting back inside your mind. Just not letting people push you around that way. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, at the same time, I'm – I'm wondering are you soothing yourself. DESIREE: No. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Have you tried that before? DESIREE: Um,
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[18:35] DESIREEI do, like, in a way tell myself. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: You're doing – you're doing a good job. You're doing what you're supposed to be doing. You stay out of trouble. Things like that. But I don't know if that's necessarily soothing myself. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes.
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[18:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSBy the moisture in your eyes I'm guessing it's not quite a – a feeling like I'm okay when that occurs. DESIREE: Right.
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[19:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd – and that is, I suppose, what I'm responding to Desiree, I'm – I'm hoping besides having an intellectual debate that you can take a deep breath and – and we find ways of supporting yourself, soothing yourself. I know what – what words I would like to reach out with you and say, something like, uh, you are cherished, you are doing a lot. And as the oldest and the most responsible in this family, um, I – I hope someone recognizes that.
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[19:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd now I'm hoping we can find the words and the way that you can tell yourself that when these things occur. DESIREE: Yeah.
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[19:55] DESIREEThat would be helpful. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So how about if we practice. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: What – what
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[20:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSwords would you like to hear yourself say. When they're picking on you or targeting you or undervaluing you as a person.
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[20:10] DESIREEI don't know. Maybe -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: It seems – seems so new
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[20:20] JOHN C. NORCROSSand novel. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And hard to kind of -- DESIREE: I don't know.
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[20:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSWell being so – being such a new experience, I suppose it makes sense. We both would wonder.
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[20:35] DESIREEYeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS:
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[20:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSBut you do think that would be helpful. DESIREE: Yes. Very helpful.
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[20:45] DESIREE[sil.]
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[20:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSWell, let's imagine for a moment that a good friend or I or – or someone, uh, were there when they're making these accusations. And you feel kind of sliced open and raw. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: What – what do you imagine if there were a good enough parent or one of your cherished friends were there. What – what would you like to hear. What do you think would touch you at that moment? [sil.]
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[21:20] DESIREEMaybe -- [sil.]
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[21:30] DESIREEI think I would get more from it if somebody told them that they were in a sense wrong.
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[21:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSI see. DESIREE: And not -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: They would stick up for you and say stop bullying her. DESIREE: Right.
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[21:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSI see. I imagine that would be wonderful. They'd be your assertive voice -- DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- in this matter. All right. So I'll be that person and say, get a life here, mom and brother. Don't you see how much she's doing and struggling. And that she's absorbed so much of the responsibility. And in some ways the pain from your parents' divorce. DESIREE: Right.
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[22:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSThat would feel good. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Someone sticking up for you and – and the way sadly you haven't experienced your parents is doing that for you. DESIREE: Right.
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[22:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSAll right. And that harks back to that second tool of assertion. Not only could you do it for yourself, but someone else could help you with it. I'm also wondering though if that soothes you.
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[22:40] DESIREEIt makes me feel better. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Okay. DESIREE: And I don't know if it's like generally made me feel better or just at that moment. I don't – I don't know.
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[22:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd I'm -- I'm pausing for a moment and my mind's going through different, uh, ways of expressing this. I'm hoping in such impossible situations that you and other people will advocate for you. Will have someone to say, look at the reality. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Look at how this is really going. I think that'd be very effective tool. Then my mind is also going to the other side but, wait – wait a minute. That's very useful.
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[23:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSBut we're forgetting Desiree. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: She can be saying something to herself. And that's new and that's difficult because, you're parents or other people haven't given you this skill or tool. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So in addition to a cherished friend, an advocate saying that's not right. That's bullying. That's picking on people. :Let's see if we can come up with a word in addition to all that, um, that you can say to yourself. Not just an intellectual debate, but – but something for yourself. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Like, I am valuable. I am a hard worker. I'm not going to let them get to me. Do any of these fit your experience? DESIREE:
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[24:30] DESIREEYeah. I – I've thought like that before. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. Is it helpful. DESIREE: Because that's kind of what keeps me going, I guess you could say. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: Because, when I tell myself that's not true, I know what is true, then, it helps me kind of, put it in the back of my head and not dwell on it.
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[25:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSI see. So, it helps you weather the immediate storm and move forward -- DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- in your life. DESIREE: Right.
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[25:05] JOHN C. NORCROSSIs that it? DESIREE: Yeah. Because it's just their opinion.
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[25:10] JOHN C. NORCROSSYes. DESIREE: And I know what's true. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And I don't need to define myself by their experiences. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. So what's, um – what are a few short self-soothing statements that we could try out this week. DESIREE: Um -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: Beginning with an I. I -- I know what's true. DESIREE: That would work. I know what's true.
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[25:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSBut I'm hoping you come forward -- DESIREE: I know -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- with some of these words that'll touch you. DESIREE: Right.
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[25:50] DESIREEI know I'm a hard worker. I know like, that being able to hand – handle the responsibility that I have will make me a better person. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm.
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[26:15] DESIREEUm -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: When I
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[26:20] JOHN C. NORCROSS– I throw out the – the phrase I'm a good person. Um, I – I just saw just a slight little flinch. Is that something you'd be uncomfortable saying. DESIREE: To myself? JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. DESIREE: I don't think so. JOHN C. NORCROSS: No?> DESIREE: Because I
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[26:35] DESIREEthink I am – I'm not a bad person. So I do think I'm a good person. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Have you heard from people or in different ways
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[26:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSthat you shouldn't say that to yourself? DESIREE: That I shouldn't say I'm a bad person. JOHN C. NORCROSS: No. That – a – that was poorly phrased on my part. Let me try it again. With the statement, I'm a good person. Have you been taught in so many ways that you should not say that about yourself. DESIREE:
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[27:05] DESIREENo. I wasn't – I was never taught to never say that about myself. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Were you taught to say it to yourself?
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[27:15] DESIREEI think if anything I taught myself to say that. I don't – because I don't know where I got it from. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I see. And maybe that was just that little
27 minutes 25 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[27:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSflinch I saw, uh, or maybe I just misread it, right. Um, but when you think, I'm a good person you – you don't recall being taught that by your parents or other people. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Rather that's a skill you've been developing on your own despite these hardships. Despite a rash of other voices saying, you're not doing enough. And – and indirectly saying maybe you're not so good.
27 minutes 55 seconds DESIREE
[27:55] DESIREERight. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I see.
28 minutes 0 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[28:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSSo, I – I'm hoping this fourth tool or – or skill is something like that. Uh, yes, I'm a hard worker. Yes, I know the reality. But something that goes to the – the core, the self of Desiree. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: When you say, how can I deal with these situations, I – I'm thinking that that core needs to be not just what they're accusing me of today. Because you say different day -- DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- it's going to be something else. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Move your shoes from the front. Even though everyone else's shoes are at the front door. DESIREE: Right.
28 minutes 40 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[28:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSOr on another day how come you didn't clean the dishes. So, if it's simply some hard worker or I did clean the dishes. That'll respond to the moment. But – but if you're following me on this, it doesn't speak to you as a person. DESIREE: So how would you do that? JOHN C. NORCROSS: That's – that's the core that we find a couple phrases that speak about you, rather than just the moment. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And I know this is novel because as you say, you've, sort of, done this, um, on your own, right. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: It's just learning by experience. So it would be something like despite this hardship I'm a good person. Uh, I am valuable.
29 minutes 25 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[29:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm, they have their opinions but I'm fairly confident in what I do.
29 minutes 30 seconds DESIREE
[29:30] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: But now you go me saying
29 minutes 35 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[29:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSit. DESIREE: I like the last statement you said. About -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: So how about if we agree this week -- DESIREE: -- your opinion. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- uh, I'll throw some ideas.
29 minutes 45 seconds DESIREE
[29:45] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: But between this session and next session you'll try out different
29 minutes 50 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[29:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSwords, uh, and phrases. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Because I don't know what – what will touch you the same way, right. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That's just the wonderful diversity. I – I don't know. Some people say I'm a good person feels too strong and self-helpish. Um, and I interrupted you there. The let – you like the last one. DESIREE: Um-hmm. About their
30 minutes 15 seconds DESIREE
[30:15] DESIREEopinion and reality. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Gotcha. This is their opinion.
30 minutes 20 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[30:20] JOHN C. NORCROSSThis is my experience. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. You like that one. DESIREE: Um-hmm.
30 minutes 25 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[30:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSCould we massage the – this is my experience that leaves you just maybe with a small self congratulatory esteem building way. That's their view, this is my experience, and I'm – anything come to mind. [sil.]
30 minutes 50 seconds DESIREE
[30:50] DESIREENo. Not at the moment. JOHN C. NORCROSS: All right.
30 minutes 55 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[30:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSDo you understand about what I'm trying to – to get to. Like I am good, I am cherished. DESIREE: Yeah, I do. Looking for -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: I'm reliable. Right. It says something about what you've been through over the years, Desiree that we – we're struggling to put these things into words. DESIREE: Right.
31 minutes 15 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[31:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd that's to be expected in therapy, right. These are new ways of behaving and related to yourself. I – I'm sure over time we'll find something.
31 minutes 25 seconds DESIREE
[31:25] DESIREEI hope so. JOHN C. NORCROSS:
31 minutes 30 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[31:30] JOHN C. NORCROSSHow confident are you? DESIREE: In what? JOHN C. NORCROSS: That you'll find ways of, um, feeling, um, better about yourself and the self-talk, um, will boaster you through these difficult times. DESIREE: Um,
31 minutes 50 seconds DESIREE
[31:50] DESIREEI think I struggle with that kind of thing because I think it's a struggle of, like, believing it. Or just saying it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I see. DESIREE: You know what I mean. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And – and the feeling that I just don't want to give myself false
32 minutes 15 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[32:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSwords. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Or – right. DESIREE: I want to actually believe it.
32 minutes 20 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[32:20] JOHN C. NORCROSSRight. So when you say it you – you really want to say I believe that totally. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And right now -- DESIREE: If I were to -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: —50-50. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I see. Well I appreciate, um, you guiding us that way. I certainly don't want you feeding yourself, uh, false statements.
32 minutes 45 seconds DESIREE
[32:45] DESIREEYeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: But I suspect we'll discover over time, um,
32 minutes 50 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[32:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSyou do believe this. And it's partly my job to help you get you there. To, uh, help you develop this skill or the tool that through life experiences you sort of missed. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Well, as we wrap up for today,
5: Homework Setting and Closing the Session
33 minutes 7 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[33:07] JOHN C. NORCROSSum, let's think about the tools. So which – which ones do you think you're leaving with. DESIREE: Um,
33 minutes 20 seconds DESIREE
[33:20] DESIREEI guess like you said, like, self assertion.
33 minutes 25 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[33:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm-hmm. DESIREE: How
33 minutes 30 seconds DESIREE
[33:30] DESIREEwhen dealing with situations like I told you, like, last week with my family. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. DESIREE: That I should be like firm in my opinion of what I really think about it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: And kind of, let myself know that they don't look at things necessarily in the most, like, truest genuine way. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um-hmm. DESIREE: And it's only their opinion.
34 minutes 15 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[34:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSThat's a fine summary. Um, so we also had the acceptance you're working on. Um, the first rule that I have to change myself since I can't directly change them. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Then there's the – as you say, self assert myself when I think there's the moment. Knowing that that may not always change their behavior or beliefs. But at least I'm giving voice to myself. DESIREE: Right.
34 minutes 45 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[34:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm, then the third that – that we talked about was receiving some support and validation from other people. I certainly respect that you don't want to go out constantly asking for it. But maybe be more open to it. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Because you strike me as quite a good listener to your friends. And I – is that right. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes. But maybe not always taking equally as much time to talk about yourself. DESIREE: Right.
35 minutes 15 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[35:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSI'll note to bring that up again. And then this fourth is your self-talk. When you're in these impossible situations that, you'll remind yourself, this is my reality. I am – I am going to get clear and solid about it. And recognize that's their experiences that come from their biases. DESIREE: Right.
35 minutes 40 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[35:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSAnd the self-talk initially will be more about my competence in a particular behavior. And then we can work in subsequent sessions to find something that's more, for a lack of a better word, gushy about you. DESIREE: Okay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Because I do want to respect that, um, you – your point about not just feeding yourself a bunch of pabulum to make -- DESIREE: Yeah. I want -- JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- myself feel better. DESIREE: -- believe it. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. So, all these other things, accepting you can't always change them, being assertive, getting help from friends, and starting with the self-talk about, like, a half a step. Saying okay, I'll address it more about the behavior. Because I feel good about myself and my behavior.
36 minutes 25 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[36:25] JOHN C. NORCROSSThen maybe -- DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: -- John and I can get to that other stuff. Yes. DESIREE: That's a good direction
36 minutes 35 seconds DESIREE
[36:35] DESIREEto go in. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I think so. Now, between, um, now and next time,
36 minutes 40 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[36:40] JOHN C. NORCROSSwhat do you think you might – so there's four things to work on.
36 minutes 45 seconds DESIREE
[36:45] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, and three of them
36 minutes 50 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[36:50] JOHN C. NORCROSSthe thought about acceptance and self-assertion and your self-talk we kind of went into detail. So they – they seem pretty clear to me what you would try differently this week. DESIREE: Um, I think
37 minutes 5 seconds DESIREE
[37:05] DESIREElike how you asked before think of a word --
37 minutes 10 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[37:10] JOHN C. NORCROSSUm-hmm. DESIREE: -- that would kind of
37 minutes 15 seconds DESIREE
[37:15] DESIREE– that I could, like, feel to the core. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Yes.
37 minutes 20 seconds DESIREE
[37:20] DESIREEI think if another situation comes up and I respond to it and I think about it, maybe it'll be easier for me to think of a word.
37 minutes 35 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[37:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSWell, that's a creative way of doing it. DESIREE: So,
37 minutes 40 seconds DESIREE
[37:40] DESIREEor write down some statements that I could use to tell myself so that when I need them, I remember them. And I can use them. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That would be very effective. So just
37 minutes 55 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[37:55] JOHN C. NORCROSSwriting down possibilities that occur to you. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That may be affective. DESIREE: Right.
38 minutes 0 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[38:00] JOHN C. NORCROSSWonderful. DESIREE: And applying them. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. If I suggest one more thing is that too long of a list? DESIREE: No. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And maybe when you're listening to your friends and supporting them, maybe talking a little more about your own and be willing to take in some of that support and concern from them. DESIREE: Yeah. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Um, my concern um, or my reasoning behind this is – is in our first meeting when you talked about your father, who compulsively lie and your mother with her up and down inconsistent moods. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: It -- it would seem to follow that you're rather hesitant in reaching out to other people. Not only your parents, right. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: I mean, you just learned the rest of the world isn't stable and always so supportive. DESIREE: Um-hmm. JOHN C. NORCROSS: So, I'm – I'm figuring maybe you're doing a little of that with other people. DESIREE: Yeah. I am hesitant. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Right. So if we could just add with a trusted friend, maybe five to 10 percent more this week.
39 minutes 10 seconds DESIREE
[39:10] DESIREEOkay. JOHN C. NORCROSS: You'll find that not everyone is like your parents.
39 minutes 15 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[39:15] JOHN C. NORCROSSThere are people out there who, much like my experience of you, is that you're obviously capable and hardworking. DESIREE: Right. JOHN C. NORCROSS: And in addition to what you're telling yourself it – it's just a wonderful feeling to know that other people know you that way.
39 minutes 30 seconds DESIREE
[39:30] DESIREERight. JOHN C. NORCROSS: All right. DESIREE: I agree. JOHN C. NORCROSS:
39 minutes 35 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[39:35] JOHN C. NORCROSSGot a lot done today. DESIREE: Yes. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Did I violate any of the preferences?
39 minutes 40 seconds DESIREE
[39:40] DESIREENo. JOHN C. NORCROSS: That we talked about. Okay. Same time
39 minutes 45 seconds JOHN C. NORCROSS
[39:45] JOHN C. NORCROSSnext week. DESIREE: Sounds good. JOHN C. NORCROSS: Great. [sil.]
