DB Psyc 620

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Anxiety and Depression (Session 3 of 6)

1: Opening the Session

Welcome back. JOSH: Hey. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. Good to see you. JOSH: Yeah, good to see you too. It feels like it was just

5 seconds JOSH

[00:05] JOSHyesterday. AMY WENZEL: It was, a week ago exactly. Exactly. You know I was taking a look at your

10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[00:10] AMY WENZELquestionnaires here and again it looks like your mood's been pretty good over the past week. Is that right? JOSH: Yeah, it's been pretty consistent. AMY WENZEL: Okay. On the depression scale your score was just one point higher than last week. But still, down from when I first met you. JOSH: Yeah, certainly. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. Anxiety, the exact same rating that you gave it last week. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. How would you explain the now persistent change in drop in your score? JOSH: I think it's

35 seconds JOSH

[00:35] JOSHthe beginning of the semester all the exams were coming at me. And now some of the exams are behind me. So I think that's like, it helps a little bit to get some feedback that's positive. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: On the exams. AMY WENZEL: Terrific. I wanna hear more about that definitely. JOSH: Yeah. So it's been good. AMY WENZEL: Can you attribute

50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[00:50] AMY WENZELany of that to anything we're doing in here? JOSH: Yeah, I mean just recognizing

55 seconds JOSH

[00:55] JOSHsome of the bad habits, I guess I have when automatic thoughts and everything. AMY WENZEL: Okay.

1 minute 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[01:00] AMY WENZELOkay. So what did you end up taking away from our last visit last week? JOSH: Um,

1 minute 5 seconds JOSH

[01:05] JOSHjust in more of the positive things that I've done versus the negative things that I've done. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I started like, I guess, just stacking myself up higher on just realizing my accomplishments. So writing things down definitely helps. But even just like thinking in my head, I write them down after the fact. So just having them, I don't know, on like a bookshelf in my mind, I guess. AMY WENZEL: A kind of bookshelf in your mind. That's terrific. JOSH: Usually I just start to worry about the next thing but I think a lot of the identifying, I don't know just the way like you slowed things down in my head, just thinking too quickly about how wrong things could go. AMY WENZEL: Sure. JOSH: Um, so I've just been like slowing things, like my reactions down in my head. So even when I'm at work, I even told my girlfriend, cause she has anxiety too, I said, "You just need to stop and realize that you need to go home from work and this just won't be a problem after that." AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: So. AMY WENZEL: Okay.

2 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[02:05] AMY WENZELSo what we're doing in here is making an impact. JOSH: Yeah, definitely. AMY WENZEL: That's terrific. And I know you sent me via email the homework where you were identifying the automatic thoughts and associating them with the thinking traps. There's a second part of your homework too. Do you remember that? JOSH: The success log. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have an opportunity to do that? JOSH: Yeah, it's in the email. I sent it to you. AMY WENZEL: Is it? Oh, I didn't see, oh I apologize. JOSH: It was underneath the table. AMY WENZEL: Oh goodness. And I was printing out this first page and I was so excited it could fit on one page. So. JOSH: It's okay. It was, I have

2 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[02:35] JOSHa success log. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So we could definitely, I'd love to talk about the automatic thoughts, talk

2 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[02:40] AMY WENZELabout the success log, how that's effected your view of yourself as being a success versus failure. What else do you wanna accomplish in here today? JOSH: I mean, I think just

2 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[02:50] JOSHtalking about those are good. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: But yeah I did do the success log. So I remember them pretty freshly too. So that shouldn't be a problem. AMY WENZEL: Well

2: Reviewing the success log

3 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[03:00] AMY WENZELtell me a little bit about the success log. What did you put on there? JOSH: Um, well last week

3 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[03:05] JOSHwhen I was here, I got like a bad, undesirable grade on an exam in an accounting class. And I was anxious about going to that class that day. AMY WENZEL: So that was the class that we were

3 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[03:15] AMY WENZELtalking about the last time, the 7:30 class. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: And you were struggling with whether or not you were going to go but leave partway through or stay the whole time. What happened? JOSH: I definitely left early. AMY WENZEL: You left early? JOSH: Because Will left early too. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: Um,

3 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[03:30] JOSHbut I'm glad I went to the class cause I didn't really wanna go to the class but when I did go, the professor said, "Yeah, I'm gonna get all the students to retake the exam online." AMY WENZEL:

3 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[03:40] AMY WENZELReally? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I got 21 out of 22

3 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[03:45] JOSHon the accounting. AMY WENZEL: Oh terrific. JOSH: So yeah. So my grade definitely got boosted. AMY WENZEL:

3 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[03:50] AMY WENZELAnd you put that on the success log. Can I just ask you one thing? You were avoiding the class and you, one of the automatic thoughts that we were working with last week was that you were pretty sure that you failed the exam and that you were probably gonna squeak by in the class but it was gonna be pretty uncomfortable. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: And we actually even talked about the fact that sometimes when everybody in the class does poorly, professors oftentimes reconsider a little bit. So what is this experience and how can you learn from this for the future? JOSH: Just not to be worried about going to the class

4 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[04:20] JOSHafter the exam. And even the university I went to before this, it was like if you asked me, "Josh, when's the next time you're gonna skip class?" It would be the next class after the exam. I never showed up to the class after the exam. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I guess I thought it was kind of cool saying it, when I was a sophomore in college. But I guess I was just avoiding the inevitable. AMY WENZEL:

4 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[04:45] AMY WENZELUm hmm. So this time you went to class even though you didn't want to. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: And you got some good news, that everybody could retake the exam. JOSH: Yeah and I improved my grade a lot

4 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[04:55] JOSHover the weekend. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Good. JOSH: So that felt good. But then I even faced a lot of anxiety retaking the exam. So it was on my success list that I did it. AMY WENZEL: Terrific, terrific. What

5 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[05:10] AMY WENZELelse was on your success log? JOSH: Um, do you know I'm trying to think

5 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[05:15] JOSHcause I just was thinking about that big one. Uh I've had some successes in work about not leaving early. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I had to open up, there's usually somebody at my office who's like the main, it's a small office, she's like the main stay-man. If she's not there, we all kind of fall apart. But I ran the office without her for an entire day. So. AMY WENZEL:

5 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[05:35] AMY WENZELOh terrific. JOSH: I mean that was good. AMY WENZEL: What did that do to your idea that you're a failure? JOSH:

5 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[05:40] JOSHUm I don't know, just that I could do it by myself if I really wanted to. But it's not so much being a failure or a success. It was just like handling all the employees. Cause I mean I know what I'm doing in my job. But I'm too young to be telling, at least I feel too young to be telling people who are like 50 years old how to paint and clean apartments and stuff. So when the older lady's not there, and I can tell her what to do too. She's really good about it. But when she's not there it's kinda hard to drive her authority from the age. So I guess that's kinda like a business problem more or less than a psychological too I suppose. AMY WENZEL: Oh absolutely. I mean it sounds like there are dynamics there at work which we

6 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[06:25] AMY WENZELtalked about the first time that we met. And you're the youngest person who works there. You're also the only family member, right? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay, so you had this task where you needed to step in and really run things and you did it. Solved the problem, you did it effectively. Great, great. JOSH:

6 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[06:40] JOSHAnd I haven't been letting my dad does the painting in the building, like all the apartments cause he used to be a painter. And he pisses everybody off. So I'm always dealing with that. But I haven't been letting it effect my mood lately. I've just been kind of reflecting it. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. So it sounds like on your success log

7 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[07:00] AMY WENZELyou're putting some academic successes with doing well on exams, with going to class rather than avoiding, there's the fact that you stepped up at work and that you ran things for a day. And then in general it just kind of sounds like you've been quite successful in managing your mood, not allowing things to bother you as much as they used to. JOSH:

7 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[07:20] JOSHYeah, definitely. AMY WENZEL: Great. Great. So the overall effect

7 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[07:25] AMY WENZELfor you of keeping the success log was what? JOSH: Um, just being aware,

7 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[07:30] JOSHlike an awareness. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: It kinda stops complacency when you know that you can do better. AMY WENZEL: Great, okay, okay. Now remember I told you last

7 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[07:40] AMY WENZELtime I had a client I worked with who accumulated 130 items on his success log? Um, I would love to see you continue to do this over more than just a week's period of time. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: So you can start to accumulate your 130. So you have just such an array of evidence that's irrefutable that you'll be able to see when you're feeling badly about yourself or when you're feeling down or unsure that you'll be able to solve problems or succeed. What do you think? JOSH:

8 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[08:05] JOSHI think that's a good idea. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I like the idea of a success log. AMY WENZEL: Good. JOSH: It kinda goes in with making lists to stay organized. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay, okay. Now last week you expressed some concerns

8 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[08:15] AMY WENZELabout writing things down although earlier today you actually said that writing things down helps. JOSH:

8 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[08:20] JOSHYeah. I guess I write things out of my head and transfer it to paper later. AMY WENZEL: Okay.

8 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[08:25] AMY WENZELThe bookshelf. JOSH: Yeah, the mental lists I suppose. AMY WENZEL: Uh huh. Okay. JOSH:

8 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[08:30] JOSHBut no I've been working more too. It's been busy at work cause it's been the middle of the end of the month and the beginning of the month. Everybody's moving. So it's easier to keep a list at work. AMY WENZEL: Okay so writing some things down,

8 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[08:45] AMY WENZELat least eventually when you transfer them from your mental bookshelf hasn't been as much of a burden as you might have thought. JOSH: No,

8 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[08:50] JOSHno. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. JOSH: No it hasn't been hard to keep the list private either. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I don't want my girlfriend or family to be looking at my list. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. So

9 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[09:00] AMY WENZELthey don't have access to your Evernote. JOSH: No. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. So you'll continue on with the success log. JOSH: Yeah.

9 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[09:05] JOSHDefinitely. AMY WENZEL: Great. And when you send it next time I'll make sure I scroll down in the email to be able to...

9 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[09:10] AMY WENZELI'll be sure to check it out after this visit. JOSH: Okay. AMY WENZEL: So,

3: Reviewing automatic thinking traps

9 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[09:15] AMY WENZELbut the other part I do have here, so you were working on identifying automatic thoughts and then detecting whether or not you were falling into a thinking trap. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. Do you remember the purpose to doing that? JOSH: To prevent falling into the thinking traps? AMY WENZEL: Yeah, yeah to recognize that and it puts the breaks on your thinking so it gives you the first clue that you might need to step back and evaluate a bit. So it sounds like you had four different things that happened in the past week that were associated with anxiety. Is that right? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: So, the first one was procrastinating taking an online quiz. So it's the same... 21 out of... JOSH:

9 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[09:50] JOSHSame class, different quiz. AMY WENZEL: Same class different quiz. JOSH: The exam was the one that was to be retaken online and the quiz just always happens. AMY WENZEL: Okay. And is this the same

10 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[10:00] AMY WENZELclass where we had talked I think last time about you just not even taking a quiz even though... JOSH:

10 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[10:05] JOSHYeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay, it's the same class. JOSH: It's the same one that's tonight. So it's the class I struggle with the most. AMY WENZEL: The class you struggle with

10 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[10:10] AMY WENZELthe most. Okay. An accounting class? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: It's not even auditing, it's a dry

10 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[10:15] JOSHaccounting class. It's the fine print. AMY WENZEL: The fine print. Okay. It sounds

10 minutes 20 seconds AMY WENZEL

[10:20] AMY WENZELreally brutal. JOSH: Yeah. The professor has an accent that I told you about. AMY WENZEL: Right, right, so the material isn't compelling and then unfortunately you're not clicking with the professor. JOSH: No. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. So I'm looking here, so you wrote down for the thought, "I just didn't wanna do it." JOSH: No, I just didn't wanna do that. AMY WENZEL: You know, and when we talked about this before, I think we had to identify some thoughts that underlie that idea that I just don't wanna do it. JOSH: Yeah, it's the fear of the failure. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So you think that's another thought I should write down underneath? "I'm gonna fail." Okay. Okay. JOSH:

10 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[10:55] JOSHBut I mean I also wrote down how just sometimes just logging onto blackboard causes me anxiety. And blackboard's our system where you just take all the online quizzes. AMY WENZEL:

11 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[11:05] AMY WENZELI actually know that. JOSH: Okay. I mean I know they call it a hundred different names out there

11 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[11:10] JOSHin the industry. But I'm just worried some day I'm gonna log on and there'll be a message pop up saying, "You've been rejected from this course," for some reason. You're out of control, it's just out of your control. AMY WENZEL: So it sounds like there's also another automatic thought there

11 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[11:25] AMY WENZELlike, "I'm gonna get bad news." JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Or even catastrophic news. JOSH: I,

11 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[11:30] JOSHI don't know, this is like my sixth year in college and I'm graduating this semester but I've had so many setbacks I'm just, every time I get like really close it's like, AMY WENZEL: Have

11 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[11:40] AMY WENZELyou gotten those types of messages before? That there's some sort of catastrophe? JOSH: Well I was supposed to graduate last semester. AMY WENZEL: And what happened? JOSH:

11 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[11:45] JOSHUm I just didn't have one of the courses that I was supposed to have. And then when I was told I had to take another semester, I just took all accounting courses. AMY WENZEL:

11 minutes 55 seconds AMY WENZEL

[11:55] AMY WENZELOkay, okay. JOSH: So now I have enough but. AMY WENZEL: And did you find out about that by logging on the computer and having a message pop up? JOSH: It was an email. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So you have had one experience like that where it was hoisted on you. Okay. JOSH: And then I mean like I've

12 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[12:10] JOSHfailed a course at ISU. And it felt like it was the end of the world even though it wasn't. AMY WENZEL:

12 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[12:15] AMY WENZELOkay, okay. So there's a couple things that happened that I guess helps to make sense why you would have the orientation when you log onto blackboard and you're expecting to get these messages. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: You wrote down here as a thinking trap, all or nothing thinking, which I do think applies to the, "Boy, I just don't wanna do it." JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: What about the "I'm gonna fail and I'm gonna get bad news?" Do you think you're falling into a trap there? JOSH: Yeah, just magnification,

12 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[12:40] JOSHright. AMY WENZEL: Yeah absolutely magnification. I think you might be jumping to a conclusion as well. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Right. JOSH: Yeah, definitely. AMY WENZEL: Which I think you definitely were doing last week when you

12 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[12:50] AMY WENZELwere pretty sure that you failed and that it was gonna put you in a really uncomfortable position in the class. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: When you got to retake the exam and did terrifically. JOSH: Yeah, I mean she's still gonna average it with

13 minutes 0 seconds JOSH

[13:00] JOSHthe other score but definitely not bad now. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay.

13 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[13:05] AMY WENZELSo it was recoverable, as Will said. JOSH: Recoverable. AMY WENZEL: Recoverable. Okay. And then so you were doing some tax homework, so this is a different class. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. And your automatic thought is "I did it incorrectly." JOSH: Yeah, taxes are complicated. AMY WENZEL: I can imagine. JOSH: And I have my first exam in that class tomorrow. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: But one of my things in my success log

13 minutes 25 seconds JOSH

[13:25] JOSHis I actually went to the optional class on Tuesday. The only reason I drive 45 minutes to go to school is to go to the class that isn't optional. So we made it optional. I was sure that I wasn't gonna go. But then I went and I'm glad I did. So now I'm more prepared for the exam tomorrow. AMY WENZEL: That's terrific. How did you, what made you go? JOSH: Um, I didn't wanna be at home. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I texted Will and he says, "Yeah, I'm going to it." He said it can't hurt. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I hadn't missed that class, not once. And I know that once I miss a class it's harder to go to it again. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And we're gonna miss it tomorrow for the exam cause we're all taking it like in a computer lab or something. AMY WENZEL: Okay.

14 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[14:05] AMY WENZELBut there's a reason you're gonna miss it, because you have the exam. Okay. JOSH: For the exam. AMY WENZEL: You know I am just kind of curious. What are you gonna do when you're not taking a class with Will? JOSH: Ha ha ha. I don't know. It's just

14 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[14:15] JOSHnice, even when it's not with Will, you always find a classmate or two in a class to stay in touch with and everything. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I have other people that I talk to in my classes that I've been in groups with before. There's a small circle in the accounting. AMY WENZEL: It always

14 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[14:30] AMY WENZELhelps to have friends or comrades, whether it's in a class or even in the real world with a job who can kinda walk by your side when you're doing the hard things. I think my wish would be that along with utilizing that sort of social support, you can also figure out something that you can say to yourself that will help you focus on the positive consequences of approaching some of these things and overcoming some of the avoidance when you don't wanna do the things. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Remember last week we had talked about the opportunity to learn how to build up that tolerance of uncertainty or the intolerance of discomfort? JOSH: Yeah. And I think I'm getting better at it. AMY WENZEL: Right.

15 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[15:10] AMY WENZELThere's no question you're getting better at it. JOSH: Yeah. I had to go to the graduation

15 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[15:15] JOSHpreparation commencement thing. And I think that was, I was anxious to go to that. AMY WENZEL: Right, right, right. Well that's interesting. So you were worried that

15 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[15:25] AMY WENZELyou had the tax homework incorrectly, you had anxiety. And then you also said on here, your last item is you went to the graduation commencement preparation. And you were also basically worried that something bad was gonna happen. So there's a pattern there with both of them. JOSH: Definitely. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. JOSH: I'm just

15 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[15:40] JOSHready for the bad news, like one more year in school, Joshua. AMY WENZEL: So I wonder if the jumping to conclusions,

15 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[15:45] AMY WENZELif that underlies all of this. JOSH: Perhaps. I just worry a lot about

15 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[15:50] JOSHbeing done. AMY WENZEL: Sure. You're ready to be done. JOSH: I can't wait to get out of academia. AMY WENZEL: You're ready to be done. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Yeah. So

16 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[16:00] AMY WENZELyou had written down magnification, which I definitely think is relevant. You also wrote down with the going to the graduating commencement preparation, disqualifying the positive. What were you disqualifying? JOSH: That I was graduating college, I guess. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. You're forgetting about all the credits that you had accumulated. JOSH: Yeah, I mean I told my

16 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[16:20] JOSHwork, cause I had to leave early from work, I was like, "I gotta go to this thing." And I guess I hadn't really told some people that I'm graduating this semester. So they're all excited and they're like, "Oh, congratulations." AMY WENZEL:

16 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[16:30] AMY WENZELWhy were you not telling them? JOSH: Just in case. AMY WENZEL: Right, I was wondering. JOSH: I mentioned it to people but I mean just like just it's gonna happen. AMY WENZEL: Okay. And the, did you, you actually did go to the graduation commencement? JOSH: Yeah, I got my cap and gown and everything. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Can anybody take that cap and gown away from you? JOSH: No. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: No, they can't. AMY WENZEL: So you have a lot of evidence now that it's happening. JOSH: Yeah.

16 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[16:55] JOSHYeah, definitely. AMY WENZEL: Okay, that's terrific. Congratulations. JOSH: Thank you. AMY WENZEL: And then the other

17 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[17:00] AMY WENZELthing on here. Oh I wanted to talk about this one. So you were transferring some money to your girlfriend's account. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: And the automatic thought you wrote down was, "Money," in capital letters. What does that mean? JOSH: I just hate doing

17 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[17:10] JOSHthings with money. I don't know. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. JOSH: It was like a two week process where I had to verify the account with her bank and my bank to be able to transfer some money we bought with her PayPal account instead of my PayPal account. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. JOSH: For some reason I just kept on avoiding doing it. I had the money, the money's already gone in my mind. But, I don't know. I probably have a thing with money. AMY WENZEL: Well you mentioned some automatic thoughts last week that

17 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[17:35] AMY WENZELwere associated with money. Do you remember what those were? JOSH: No, I just think it's like a stereotypical

17 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[17:40] JOSHthing of somebody my age that works part-time being worried about money a lot. So I always kind of attribute it to that. But it's definitely a big stresser in my life. AMY WENZEL: Well you know I'm glad that you

17 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[17:50] AMY WENZELbrought this up because on the one hand absolutely struggles with money are normal and there's certainly nothing out of the ordinary, especially if you work a part-time job. And you're facing a big transition in your life. On the other hand, though, you keep telling me how stressed you are. So I actually do wonder if there might be some of these thinking traps at work. JOSH: Yeah, definitely. Being out of money, I mean we talked about that last week. AMY WENZEL: Exactly. JOSH: But. AMY WENZEL: The concept that I recall working with last week was that a thought such as, "I'm gonna need the money for something." Or, "something's gonna come up and I'm not going to have the money." Is that right? JOSH: Yeah, definitely. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So is that probably what was going on here? JOSH: Certainly. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I'm just witness to a lot of bad financial situations

18 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[18:30] JOSHin people that, I don't know. And I'm an accounting major so. AMY WENZEL:

18 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[18:35] AMY WENZELRight, so you're sensitized to it. JOSH: I gotta do all the math in my head without thinking about it, how

18 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[18:40] JOSHmuch somebody makes and everything. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I'm always qualifying people on income and credit every day. So I feel like my income and credit better be pretty good. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. JOSH: That kinda happens. AMY WENZEL:

18 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[18:50] AMY WENZELSo you're kinda primed to be thinking about this and to be noticing little things. JOSH:

18 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[18:55] JOSHYeah. And I judge people who have car payments that they can't afford em. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. JOSH: Really quickly. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. JOSH: A lot of car payments out there. AMY WENZEL: Sure, sure. So you judge other people but you're also

19 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[19:05] AMY WENZELstressed out would suggest that you also have some thoughts about yourself. JOSH: Yeah, yeah. I'm always judging

19 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[19:10] JOSHmyself. AMY WENZEL: Okay. And judging yourself in what way? What do you say? JOSH: I try to be as frugal as possible. And it's just not wasting, I don't know. I see a lot of people just kind of ruin their lives in their first five years of having credit. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. JOSH: So I've been exposed to that my entire life. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. JOSH: Always raised to be very frugal. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. JOSH: Um, which I don't know how a middle class family like my parents did that. Cause we certainly didn't have nothing. But I don't know. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Well it sounds to me like, in many ways you're making

19 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[19:40] AMY WENZELsome very good decisions with money. And it's in fact decisions that many other people don't make and hence they have bad credit scores or get in debt. JOSH: Like maybe everybody else should be as worried as I am about the credit system. AMY WENZEL: Well, you know, I would encourage us to go for balance. You know, you're making good decisions, you're setting yourself up for the future, but you're also stressing yourself out a little bit. JOSH:

20 minutes 0 seconds JOSH

[20:00] JOSHYeah. AMY WENZEL: Where would the middle ground be? JOSH: I don't know. Cause sometimes it prevents me from doing things. AMY WENZEL: Right. JOSH: And that costs me money down the road. AMY WENZEL: Okay. What's an example? JOSH: Um, like I've had to take out a third party student loan before 'cause I didn't have my FAFSA stuff done. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And that costs you money down the road. AMY WENZEL: You're right. You're

20 minutes 20 seconds AMY WENZEL

[20:20] AMY WENZELright. JOSH: With interest and everything else from not taking the free money from the government. AMY WENZEL: Right. So there is an example of what we're working on; the main goal is to overcome avoidance. And so that was an instance where your avoidance had a real consequence. JOSH: Definitely. Yep. Didn't get it done in time,

20 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[20:35] JOSHpaying for it now. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, yeah. So this is terrific

20 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[20:40] AMY WENZELwork. I guess if we were to draw a conclusion from this, what would it be? JOSH:

20 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[20:45] JOSHUm, not to jump to conclusions. AMY WENZEL: Right. JOSH: I don't know, you learn more about teaching. I was just telling my girlfriend earlier, like some of the stuff that we were working on. AMY WENZEL: Uh huh. JOSH: About the slowing down of thoughts. And she freaks out about stuff sometimes too. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. So it sounds like

21 minutes 5 seconds AMY WENZEL

[21:05] AMY WENZELyou're actually talking about this to her, I guess consolidates this for you. You're putting your own words onto it so you're describing the theory and the strategies and what not and it just kinda makes it gel for you all the more. JOSH: Oh, yeah. Definitely. AMY WENZEL: Well I have something else for you.

4: Evaluation questions

21 minutes 20 seconds AMY WENZEL

[21:20] AMY WENZELCan I share that with you? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: This is actually one of my favorite things that I share with people. JOSH:

21 minutes 25 seconds JOSH

[21:25] JOSHOkay. AMY WENZEL: This is, I call these evaluation questions.

21 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[21:30] AMY WENZELAnd these are just questions that you can begin to ask yourself once you notice that you're falling into a thinking trap to start to get that distance and perspective and balance. You don't have to ask yourself all of these questions. These are just a sampling of some of our more common questions that we ask. But the goal here is really to start critically examining these automatic thoughts once you recognize that a trap might be at work. And then taking a step back and really honestly answering these questions. JOSH: Okay. AMY WENZEL: So if you could imagine the capital letter L. So we've been traveling down the vertical part of the L where we've been identifying the thoughts and identifying the thinking trap, if your thinking is a bit inaccurate or unhelpful, we wanna turn the corner. And this is like the 90 degree angle where the vertical meets the horizontal. So this really shows you how to start thinking in a different direction. So I'm already seeing you glance over those questions. What are some questions that you are seeing as potentially helpful for you to get that distance and balance? JOSH: Uh,

22 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[22:30] JOSHlike the worst, best case scenario questions and most realistic outcome. AMY WENZEL:

22 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[22:35] AMY WENZELYeah, I really like those questions for people who jump to conclusions and the reason is when you go through and you honestly answer what's the very worst, but what's the best and what's the most realistic, I would say in my experience about 95 percent of the time, the best outcome and the most realistic are really really similar. And the most realistic is much further away from the worst case scenario. JOSH: I guess it depends on your imagination. AMY WENZEL: Ha ha. Depends on your imagination. There's another set of questions in the same area of those and that's like; well if the worst were to happen, how would I cope?

23 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[23:10] AMY WENZELAnd I think that we actually got to that a little bit last week with money. Where you were saying, "Okay, if I, if something came up and I know I didn't have the money, I could work extra, I could go to my family, I don't wanna do that. I don't like doing it. But it is an option that's kind of in the background, right? So when you ask yourself, "Okay, how would I cope?" It might not be, it might not feel great but it doesn't have to be catastrophic. Is that right? JOSH:

23 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[23:35] JOSHYeah. Um, I think you're completely right. I don't know, sometimes I worry when I start, "What's the worst thing hat could happen?" If the worst thing that could happen isn't that bad, sometimes I'm just prone to just let the worst thing happen. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. Because

23 minutes 55 seconds AMY WENZEL

[23:55] AMY WENZELthen you give yourself permission to avoid, right? JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: That's really insightful actually. So that brings me to another point here. Sometimes it's good to ask a number of these questions together. And so you could ask yourself about the best, the worst, the most realistic. And then if you start to ask yourself or you start to feel yourself moving towards that avoidance, you could ask yourself, "Okay, what would be he consequences of avoidance?" In fact I don't even have a question on there that specifically reads what are the consequences of avoidance but it's another one of those evaluation questions in the same spirit. And you might, how would you answer that question?

24 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[24:30] AMY WENZELWhat would be the consequence of avoidance then for you? JOSH: I mean sometimes it's like when I answer that question

24 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[24:35] JOSHto myself it's like the couch springer, it gets you off your butt to go like "Oh, can't have that happen." AMY WENZEL: Right, right. JOSH: You fail this course, you gotta be home a little bit longer. AMY WENZEL: I think you're kind of doing that now with school. I mean you've

24 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[24:50] AMY WENZELdescribed this semester as being do or die time for you. JOSH: Definitely. AMY WENZEL: The couch spring has sprung, right? JOSH: It keeps springing. AMY WENZEL: It keeps springing. Okay. Okay. You know, another question I really like on there is the evidence question. So asking yourself "What evidence really supports this idea?" "What evidence is inconsistent with this idea?" So you're looking at the full pool of information or evidence that surrounds the way that you're viewing a situation. And you have to take into account all of it in order to be more balanced. And I wonder if the evidence question would have been a real nice one for the graduation commencement preparation, where you were disqualifying the positive. JOSH: Certainly. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, so the evidence that you were disqualifying was what? JOSH:

25 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[25:35] JOSHUm, I don't know, just that they invited me to go to the graduation commencement preparation. AMY WENZEL: Sure. JOSH: Just that I was even told about it.

5: Positive reinforcement and first-generation college student

25 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[25:45] JOSHBut I mean also like the worst case scenario that I often think to myself if I didn't graduate is that I am so on the line that it could only ever take me until the rest of the summer to finish school. AMY WENZEL: What

26 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[26:00] AMY WENZELdo you mean on the line? JOSH: Like

26 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[26:05] JOSHI mean the requirements that I need to graduate college, I am so, I am not that far away that whatever, if for instance the worst thing happened, I failed a class, I would be able to make up for it within a month after. AMY WENZEL: This is great, Josh. JOSH: By like June or July I'd be done with it. AMY WENZEL: This is the first time I'm hearing you say that because last time,

26 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[26:30] AMY WENZELcertainly the first time I met you, but also last time, you have presented in this all or nothing manner that "I have to graduate this semester or everything's over." And it looks like you are gonna graduate. It looks like you've done a terrific job. But there's a backup, I mean, that you would just graduate a month, month and a half later, if you had to take a class in the summer session. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Right? JOSH: Definitely. AMY WENZEL: When you acknowledge that, how does that make you feel? JOSH: It makes me feel better but

26 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[26:55] JOSHI gotta not be complacent about it. AMY WENZEL: Right, and so there's your balance. And I think, again,

27 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[27:00] AMY WENZELI'm glad that you brought up the fact that it's easy to give yourself permission to avoid if you start viewing the worst case scenario as not so bad. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: So the combination of asking questions so as not to catastrophize but then pairing it with what are the consequences then of avoiding. It sounds like the consequences are that you stay stuck in the same pattern. JOSH:

27 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[27:20] JOSHYeah, it's hard to catch yourself when you start, I don't know, just saying things like, "What's the worst thing that could happen? Oh, that's not so bad." AMY WENZEL: Right.

27 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[27:30] AMY WENZELRight. Since we began our work together, I'm wondering, how successful would you view yourself in overcoming avoidance? If you were to give it a percentage? Zero percent? 50? 100? JOSH: I guess 60 percent. AMY WENZEL: 60 percent. That's terrific. JOSH:

27 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[27:45] JOSHI probably started a bit lower than that. AMY WENZEL: Right. Well that's my sense, that's why

27 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[27:50] AMY WENZELI was asking that question. So when we first met, the very first time, what percentage would you have been at? JOSH: 40. AMY WENZEL: 40. JOSH: 40 or 20 percent. I'm thinking three out of five is where I'm at now. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. So we have added another 20 percent towards your treatment goal of overcoming avoidance. Okay. Um, we certainly have these questions, these things that you could ask yourself in order to view these situations in a balanced way. What else is it gonna take for us to then push it past that 60 percent? JOSH:

28 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[28:20] JOSHUm, a hyena to just follow me around and make sure I get everything done, I suppose. AMY WENZEL: Uh huh. JOSH: I don't know. Just practice. I've always believed in practice. AMY WENZEL: Well and you're doing a lot of practicing, you're being really consistent here with the homework. JOSH: Yeah. Sometimes you gotta wonder if that's what college is for. But I can't imagine everybody has anxiety problems, I don't know. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. So are you actually viewing college as sort

28 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[28:45] AMY WENZELof like giving you some life lessons? JOSH: Oh certainly. AMY WENZEL: Practicing. JOSH: Yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I see that a lot cause

28 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[28:50] JOSHI'm the only one in my family that went to college. So sometimes I see people really struggle with things that aren't that complicated. AMY WENZEL: Oh. I didn't realize nobody in your family went to college. I mean, I wonder if that's again one

29 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[29:00] AMY WENZELof these background types of experiences that feeds into how we should understand your academic anxiety. JOSH: Yeah, nobody knew, nobody understood why I had to apply to graduate

29 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[29:10] JOSHcollege. They just thought that once you were done, you were done. AMY WENZEL: Once you're done, you are done. Okay. JOSH: That's the end of it. AMY WENZEL: Do you carry as lot of pressure because... JOSH: Yeah. Yeah, my brother, he didn't go to college and he's like, he has a small business, I guess. And I have a little sister so. AMY WENZEL: Oh you do? JOSH: I feel like whoever does the best is, she'll either go to college or she won't. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm.

29 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[29:35] AMY WENZELDo you believe that by completing college then you're gonna assume some sort of role in the family that? JOSH: I assume by completing

29 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[29:45] JOSHcollege and getting a job, I'll assume some sort of role in the family. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. JOSH: It's not just enough to go to school anymore. AMY WENZEL: Right. JOSH: You have to get a job afterwards. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: So, kinda where I'm at with that. AMY WENZEL: Well what's interesting to me about this conversation is that

30 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[30:00] AMY WENZELyou don't have any role models really in terms of to follow in terms of just going along that path of applying to and being at, completing college. JOSH: Yeah.

30 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[30:10] JOSHSomething I say a lot is my kids won't struggle as much with college as I did. AMY WENZEL: Yep.

30 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[30:15] AMY WENZELSo these life lessons that you're getting, you're gonna be able to impart a lot (inaudible ) on there. JOSH: What wisdom can I gain? AMY WENZEL: Yeah. What wisdom can you gain. How can you achieve personal growth or grow as a person. JOSH: Yeah, that's like the

30 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[30:30] JOSHMalcolm Gladwell, David and Goliath book. AMY WENZEL: Yep. Yep. JOSH: Desirable difficulties. I think I'm growing as a person. AMY WENZEL: You absolutely are. JOSH: But, I've had a lot handed to me too. So. AMY WENZEL: Well don't disqualify the positive there because just in the short time that I've known you,

30 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[30:45] AMY WENZELyou're doing some great work here. JOSH: Thanks. AMY WENZEL: So in fact I'm gonna flip over this page. JOSH:

6: Discussing future life transitions

30 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[30:50] JOSHTo the paperwork. AMY WENZEL: Yes, to the paperwork that you don't do on paper, that you do on Evernote.

30 minutes 55 seconds AMY WENZEL

[30:55] AMY WENZELDo you notice what I've added there? JOSH: Yeah, the evaluation questions. AMY WENZEL: The evaluation questions. So could you write down one or more of these questions that you can start to ask yourself and start to answer in order to get that distance and perspective? JOSH: Yeah, I can definitely do that. AMY WENZEL: Alright. JOSH: We'll add it to the Evernote. AMY WENZEL: You'll add to the Evernote. That's terrific. Now one thing I was not seeing on your homework, were any of those sort of socially anxious type of situations, like last time we talked about some nervousness around your girlfriend's father and her father's girlfriend. JOSH: Yeah, I didn't see them this weekend. AMY WENZEL: You didn't see them this weekend. JOSH:

31 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[31:30] JOSHNo, they were doing something else. I barely saw her this weekend. So I mean. AMY WENZEL: So you've been busy. JOSH: Yeah. I don't really have too many social situations. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I can be an awkward person sometimes. AMY WENZEL:

31 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[31:40] AMY WENZELRight right. JOSH: Even though I'm fine at work, I see a lot of people at work, I could talk to somebody

31 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[31:45] JOSHoff the street, take him in, show him around. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, yeah. JOSH: But I can't operate in groups sometimes. I don't know. AMY WENZEL: Well and I'm also wondering if there's some anxiety around

31 minutes 55 seconds AMY WENZEL

[31:55] AMY WENZELyour girlfriend, not necessarily with your girlfriend, but in situations where somehow then she could conclude that you're not as desirable as she might have thought. Am I right about that? JOSH: Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH:

32 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[32:05] JOSHThat's every guy's head I think. They just wanna maintain status quo in the relationship. AMY WENZEL:

32 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[32:10] AMY WENZELSure. JOSH: Make sure you're still desirable. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. Does anxiety or stress associated with that concern, is that something we should work on together? JOSH: No,

32 minutes 20 seconds JOSH

[32:20] JOSHI think a lot of that's gonna be over after I get a job. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. JOSH: I have to prove to her father that I can support myself. AMY WENZEL: What makes you think you have to

32 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[32:30] AMY WENZELprove that to him? JOSH: He won't let me buy beer while we're out. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: "Not

32 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[32:35] JOSHuntil you have a job." AMY WENZEL: Oh really? So he actually says that to you. JOSH: Oh yeah. AMY WENZEL: So that's another one of those, I was

32 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[32:40] AMY WENZELwondering if there was evidence that... but you have evidence. JOSH: Yeah. And I gave him my

32 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[32:45] JOSHword when his daughter graduated that I was gonna graduate this last December. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And then I didn't. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: But I'm probably gonna get a better job out of it, from going to school. I got a lot more accounting classes under my belt and I'm close to getting a CPA so. AMY WENZEL:

33 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[33:00] AMY WENZELSo there's another side of the coin. It ended up not being so bad that you didn't graduate in December. JOSH: Yeah.

33 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[33:05] JOSHI had to work a lot to make that sound good and get everything I needed done. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I had to picture that one. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So really it sounds like he definitely

33 minutes 15 seconds AMY WENZEL

[33:15] AMY WENZELgives you the verbal indication that you have something to prove and you're doing it. Okay. JOSH: I don't blame him. It's his daughter so it's reasonable. So. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. Okay. JOSH: Do what you can do. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: But I'm always out there kind of to prove it to him that

33 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[33:30] JOSHI don't know, that he'd let me. Eventually I'll probably ask him to marry her unless we break up. So... AMY WENZEL: You're serious. JOSH: Yeah, we've been dating for three years. If we don't plan on getting married, we would probably just break up. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: Wouldn't be really a reason to date. But that's kinda like a Christian vision I've always had. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: Growing up. AMY WENZEL: So this transition that you're

33 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[33:50] AMY WENZELfacing with graduating and getting a job, there might also be a marriage proposal in there. JOSH: Yeah, yeah. Shopping for condos

34 minutes 0 seconds JOSH

[34:00] JOSHand... AMY WENZEL: Oh the shopping for condos. You're right, you're right. JOSH: Yeah, I was supposed to see one on Saturday but it sold. It was too good of a deal for Chicago. AMY WENZEL: Do you anticipate any stress or anxiety associated with the transition

34 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[34:10] AMY WENZELjust because everything's gonna be so new for you? JOSH: No, I can't wait to

34 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[34:15] JOSHmove out of my house. So there's more to look forward to than the fear. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I've lived down in Bloomington Normal where I went to university independently for a long time. AMY WENZEL: Right, and I was thinking about that experience. So part of that experience wasn't the most

34 minutes 30 seconds AMY WENZEL

[34:30] AMY WENZELpositive for you. So again with that question, what wisdom can you gain from the Bloomington Normal experience that you can apply to this transition? JOSH: I think as long as

34 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[34:40] JOSHI start a career, and can really get myself into it, that I'll be fine. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: And I think I wasn't able to get myself quite into my education. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: At Bloomington Normal. AMY WENZEL:

34 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[34:50] AMY WENZELAnd how are you gonna do that? Get really into your career? JOSH: Um you know like when they say you first start a job,

34 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[34:55] JOSHyou kinda cut your teeth and for like a couple of years and just, I just kinda do that. AMY WENZEL:

35 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[35:00] AMY WENZELWork hard. JOSH: It's an entry level position, yeah. And I don't have a problem working

35 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[35:05] JOSHhard when I'm getting paid. But it's real hard pain to work hard at school. AMY WENZEL:

35 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[35:10] AMY WENZELRight, so at school at times there can be some avoidance and procrastination. But it sounds like you view work as being different enough that the avoidance and procrastination won't be as much of an issue there? JOSH: Yeah, I'm very efficient. And I try to be really effective at work. So I mean,

35 minutes 25 seconds JOSH

[35:25] JOSHI am all over work. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. JOSH: So our occupancy is way up. AMY WENZEL: Well what can you learn then from work to apply to these other situations where

35 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[35:35] AMY WENZELyou procrastinate? JOSH: It's just night and day for me; work and education.

35 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[35:40] JOSHI can't wait to start a different job so I can put the same amount of work into my work into that. But I don't know, I guess it's the work has more immediate reward. And so sometimes it's easier just to do that and to be recognized for it whereas an education, it's more like deferring the gratification. AMY WENZEL: Okay. So you're a person who needs immediate rewards. JOSH: I try not to be but if I'm being honest with myself, definitely. AMY WENZEL: You know yourself. You know yourself. And

36 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[36:10] AMY WENZELthe career, you were saying you were gonna pursue a type of tax job. Is that right? JOSH: Yeah,

36 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[36:15] JOSHauditing or tax auditing. AMY WENZEL: Tax auditing. Oh boy. You and I might be enemies at one point here. JOSH: Ha ha. No. AMY WENZEL: So tax auditing. And do you have something lined up? JOSH: Nope, not at all. AMY WENZEL:

36 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[36:25] AMY WENZELOkay, okay. JOSH: I have been working at the place I'm working now, I have moved over to the

36 minutes 30 seconds JOSH

[36:30] JOSHaccounting area, over there kind of working with the books. AMY WENZEL: Terrific. JOSH: I don't agree with how things are done so it's kinda hard to make any changes. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: But I think it'll be good. I don't think it'll be really hard for me to get an entry level job with my education. AMY WENZEL: Good for you. JOSH: But it'll probably be hard. I think I'll get a job, it's probably the job I want. AMY WENZEL: Yeah but you

36 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[36:50] AMY WENZELknow what you're doing right now is you're so being so balanced about this. So you're not catastrophizing about the possibility of not getting a job, you have enough confidence in yourself that you know one's gonna come your way. You actually, now that you're moving into the accounting area in the place where you work, now you're actually getting some experience, I think. JOSH: Yeah, a little bit. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. JOSH: But I still have a lot

37 minutes 10 seconds JOSH

[37:10] JOSHof anxiety about filling out my resume. I have a resume, I have a lot of anxiety about updating it. And I have a lot of anxiety about applying for jobs. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: Even though I think I'm qualified to get one. AMY WENZEL: Okay. You know I'm writing this down. Anxiety about resume,

37 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[37:25] AMY WENZELand anxiety about applying for jobs. Um, you know I don't think we're gonna have enough time here today to, cause those are big areas. But what do you think about putting this in our agenda for when I come back in town? JOSH: Uh,

37 minutes 40 seconds JOSH

[37:40] JOSHthat's fine. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Because this is really the first time you've mentioned anxiety about it. In fact,

37 minutes 45 seconds AMY WENZEL

[37:45] AMY WENZELlike I was saying, I think you're actually being confident and balanced. JOSH: I mean,

37 minutes 50 seconds JOSH

[37:50] JOSHI can go to a job fair and talk to people. AMY WENZEL: Right. JOSH: I just don't wanna write my resume. AMY WENZEL: Okay.

37 minutes 55 seconds AMY WENZEL

[37:55] AMY WENZELOkay. JOSH: I don't know what that means. AMY WENZEL: You know, I guess just because you write a resume you don't automatically get a job. Vthat's not immediate gratification there. JOSH: Yeah, I suppose. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. But I wonder if we could talk some about the automatic thoughts that come up when you're sitting down to do the resume or when you're applying for jobs. And we could take a look at how they relate to our model here but also see what types of traps you're falling into and whether there are some things that we can start to do to help you critically evaluate and take a step back from those. JOSH: Okay, that'll be good. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, yeah. So I'll definitely, I'm gonna write a note here for next time. So it'll be two weeks before I come back here. JOSH: Good. AMY WENZEL: Good. JOSH: Spring

38 minutes 35 seconds JOSH

[38:35] JOSHbreak is next week and I had to ask about that cause I wasn't quite sure. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Okay. Doing anything nice

38 minutes 40 seconds AMY WENZEL

[38:40] AMY WENZELfor spring break? JOSH: I'm thinking about dipping down to ISU for a while. They're

38 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[38:45] JOSHhaving spring break right now. Probably be having some fun. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, good for you. Good for you. Good. Take some time off,

38 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[38:50] AMY WENZELrelax, enjoy the break. Anything coming up here then in the next couple of weeks where you can see yourself avoiding or procrastinating? JOSH: Just school. AMY WENZEL: Just school. JOSH: Historically, February is always, not February, I guess

39 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[39:05] JOSHMarch, I guess this time right now in the semester is usually where I start to lose track. AMY WENZEL: So kind of after the first round of midterms. JOSH: I'll go to one class and hold on to the other one. So I just gotta really keep my focus wide on all these courses. AMY WENZEL:

39 minutes 20 seconds AMY WENZEL

[39:20] AMY WENZELOkay. Okay. JOSH: And that's just a previous habit

39 minutes 25 seconds JOSH

[39:25] JOSHthat I've acknowledged to myself that I have. AMY WENZEL: Right, right. So what's gonna be different this time? JOSH: I'm seeing a psychologist every Wednesday. AMY WENZEL:

39 minutes 35 seconds AMY WENZEL

[39:35] AMY WENZELAlright, alright. JOSH: I don't know. The financial office asked me that too. AMY WENZEL: Okay. JOSH: I don't know. I'm doing better. All my classes are going well. I haven't really

39 minutes 45 seconds JOSH

[39:45] JOSHmissed any classes yet. I missed one lately but besides that I've at least showed up for the beginning of it. I've left early a couple times but. AMY WENZEL: Right right. JOSH: Some people just do that during the night time classes. AMY WENZEL: Sure. It sounds to me that

40 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[40:00] AMY WENZELyou are more in tune with this pattern of avoidance. It sounds like it is something that you wanna overcome. Luckily it doesn't seem to affect you in the work realm and that's what you're heading into with your work and your career. JOSH: It can't affect me yet. So I'm anxious about that. AMY WENZEL: Well well I think we have three more visits together. And this was really the primary issue that brought you in here. So I do wonder if maybe we can do what I call coping ahead or really thinking ahead to use this time as a springboard to just jump into this next phase in your life in a way that's proactive and positive and that really is associated with good habits that have been established. What do you think of that? JOSH: I like how you said the springboard. AMY WENZEL: Yeah, I'm writing down springboard right here. JOSH: Sounds nice. AMY WENZEL: Okay. Yeah so we'll do some of what I call coping ahead. JOSH: Yeah that sounds like something I could use. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. So

7: Closing the session

40 minutes 50 seconds AMY WENZEL

[40:50] AMY WENZELwhat did you learn in here today? JOSH: Um, I think we just

40 minutes 55 seconds JOSH

[40:55] JOSHverified some of the avoidance things that I have and I'm gonna work on the questions. AMY WENZEL:

41 minutes 0 seconds AMY WENZEL

[41:00] AMY WENZELRight, right. JOSH: So I can kind of see where it's going,

41 minutes 5 seconds JOSH

[41:05] JOSHyou know. We're gonna add more columns every week and hopefully we'll get there. So. AMY WENZEL: Eventually there's

41 minutes 10 seconds AMY WENZEL

[41:10] AMY WENZELan end to the columns. JOSH: Yeah? So I mean just keep on going at

41 minutes 15 seconds JOSH

[41:15] JOSHit. AMY WENZEL: Um hmm. Good. Good. And so for homework you're gonna do what? JOSH: Probably just keep on doing what I'm doing and add the column to the log. I got the success list. AMY WENZEL:

41 minutes 25 seconds AMY WENZEL

[41:25] AMY WENZELRight, exactly. Those two things. JOSH: So we'll talk more about that next week I guess. AMY WENZEL: Okay, okay. Well I hope you have a terrific time on spring break. And be sure to not neglect classes for the rest of the week. And then when you get back I will look forward to seeing you in two weeks. JOSH: Okay, that's great. AMY WENZEL: