db psyc 620

Couples Forgiveness Therapy for Marital Conflict

1: Opening the Session

0 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[00:00] ROBERT ENRIGHTHello, Sabrina and Joe. Thank you so much for coming in today. Could you just tell me briefly why you have come? SABRINA: Our fighting has

11 seconds SABRINA

[00:11] SABRINAescalated to the point where there is no regard or respect for each other or children. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Joe? How do you see it? JOE: Coming here

21 seconds JOE

[00:21] JOEbetter to get a understanding of where she stands, we could co-parent without argument. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

31 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[00:31] ROBERT ENRIGHTYou are dealing with issues of injustice, which often times tumble into wounds in the heart. Forgiveness therapy does deal with the wounded heart, and ways to heal from that? So before we actually go into that area, which is difficult, I would like you to just think about each of you, a loving relationship, a loving encounter really that you have had with one person in your life. So we can start with the heart that's more filled with the loving response, as we move into the wounded area. I want you to keep that feeling of love in you as we move. So Sabrina would you like to start with? SABRINA: My best girlfriend

1 minute 21 seconds SABRINA

[01:21] SABRINAI guess. She is at me through a lot of everything in my life, and right now she is really being a good support and that fills me. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. So she is loving unconditionally basically, and you know what that

1 minute 41 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[01:41] ROBERT ENRIGHTfeels like. SABRINA: Yeah, no judgment, no harsh words or no throwing anything, you know,

1 minute 46 seconds SABRINA

[01:46] SABRINAit's just love. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. And Joe how about you?

1 minute 51 seconds JOE

[01:51] JOEJust one. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Just one? JOE: Particular moment. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Yeah, with one particular person.

1 minute 56 seconds JOE

[01:56] JOEActually I had to say would be Sabrina, when had our first child, Joseph, when he came out healthy. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Oh, okay. Very good. Well, let's

2 minutes 6 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[02:06] ROBERT ENRIGHTtry to keep that loving sense as we now move into the issue of the wounded heart, because that's where forgiveness enters. Could you tell me as we begin, what wounds each of you brings to our conversation today? As you look within, what is wounded in there? Sabrina would you like to start with that?

2 minutes 36 seconds SABRINA

[02:36] SABRINAI come from a single parent home; my mother was bipolar. And I had to step-up and do a lot of grown up things at a very early age. I don't believe or I can't remember a time when anyone is stood up for me. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. SABRINA: So I have to stand up for myself and a lot times that hurts. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Yes.

3 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[03:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. Do you have anger, towards your mother? SABRINA: I think

3 minutes 16 seconds SABRINA

[03:16] SABRINAthe anger is more towards me with her. I know that she is ill, so I can't really -- it hurts but I don't think I am angry with her, I know that she is ill. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. What do you think

3 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[03:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTyou might have brought into the marriage, that was a wounded heart, or not marriage, excuse me, when your relationship, when you started to say, yes to Joe, what wounds did you bring into that relationship?

3 minutes 56 seconds SABRINA

[03:56] SABRINAThe lack of a father. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. SABRINA: I definitely think that, they came with me and the lack of support that I haven't had in my life. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. I think that's an important insight.

4 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[04:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTJoe, how about you? JOE: I would say the lack of appreciation

4 minutes 26 seconds JOE

[04:26] JOEfor the things I do, kind of kill my pride. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. And how about from

4 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[04:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTyour more distant past? JOE: I grew up in a single family home like she did,

4 minutes 41 seconds JOE

[04:41] JOEbut reversed, where I didn't have a mother; father wasn't around really; working, so basically on my own. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. JOE: And first chance I got to lift and went to the military soon. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

4 minutes 56 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[04:56] ROBERT ENRIGHTI first want us to see that what is happening with both of you is not an isolation, but what you both brought in was a pattern of woundedness that it's continued with each other, where there has been unfairness toward both of you from very young, being abandoned because of illness or being abandoned physically is unfair to a child. And you have brought that in. And so now there has been some unfairness between the two of you and that's what forgiveness therapy does. It deals with the unfairness, and it deals with the effects of the unfairness that we are going to talk about in a moment. Before we talk about how your woundedness entered into your relationship, and you wounded each other. When I use the word forgiveness, what does that mean to you? Joe, why don't we start with you this time? JOE: Basically letting the past be the past,

6 minutes 6 seconds JOE

[06:06] JOEeither move on, forgive and move on, or you don't forgive it all. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

6 minutes 11 seconds JOE

[06:11] JOEI mean, you take it for what it is and just keep going. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay,

6 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[06:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTSabrina? SABRINA: For me forgiveness

6 minutes 21 seconds SABRINA

[06:21] SABRINAit takes both parties involved and to truly be able to forgive someone, I don't believe in moving past things, because we carry the past with us, continuously. It's about working together and coming to an agreement to work through it together and not leaving the other person to bear the pain that you have cause them alone. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. Then let me share a third view to

6 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[06:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTadd to what you have said, because what you've said is definitely part of forgiveness. I think there is a little more to within that. Here is what I mean. When you forgive you are actually offering in terms of something good, you are offering a goodness toward those who you think have not been good to you. You are actually offering mercy toward those who have not been good to you. We don't talk much about this idea of mercy in our society, we talk about this happened to me, I want fairness and that's all. But mercy says, I am going to go beyond what is fair to another person, even if I think they don't deserve it. So with centered in not fairness, but going beyond fairness to giving more abundantly to a person. It doesn't mean excusing, so it doesn't mean when you forgive you are saying, what happened to me is all right.

8 minutes 1 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[08:01] ROBERT ENRIGHTYou are not forgetting in terms of saying well I am going to develop an amnesia, so I can go back and keep getting hurt. When you forgive, you always bring justice along side, because both are what we call moreover true. So when you forgive, which is again having mercy on those who aren't necessarily good to you from your view point, you ask fairness of the person. And with forgiveness you may or may not reconcile. Alright, it doesn't mean when you forgive, you automatically reconcile, with some people you do reconcile, with other people you don't. So I just want to leave that out there in terms of what is added, because when you move on, you do move on with the other person in mind, with their well-being in mind. Even if you can't live together, you move on with the others well-being in mind. I'm wondering what you think about that before we start what we are calling forgiveness therapy.

9 minutes 6 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[09:06] ROBERT ENRIGHTDoes that definition or that explanation added to yours make sense? SABRINA: It makes perfectly

9 minutes 16 seconds SABRINA

[09:16] SABRINAgood sense. I have recently started with mindfulness and practicing kindness to most people. So it makes good sense, it's just hard, it's really hard. ROBERT ENRIGHT: It is hard, you are right.

9 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[09:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd that's what makes I think forgiveness perhaps the most heroic moral virtue on the planet, because it's easy to be kind to someone who is kind to you. It's not so easy to be kind to those who are not kind to you. But that's what forgiveness asks of you. It asks you to strive and work hard overtime to be kind to those who haven't been kind to you. So do you have anything Joe to add to this discussion of what it is, I want to make sure we understand, what it is before we move forward. JOE: No.

2: Exploring Wounds

10 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[10:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. Let's then begin, what we are calling forgiveness therapy. The first point is to understand the wounds that you were talked about from childhood and now -- that you have now, that have resulted from what you both think are the unfairnesses, the other carries into the difficulties. What wounds Joe have developed in you, since you've been having difficulty in the relationship?

10 minutes 56 seconds JOE

[10:56] JOEProbably trust, no appreciation, you know just hatred and anger towards me. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

11 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[11:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTThat's very wounded, and that isn't the injustice itself, I want you to see that that follows from the injustice, so that wounds can multiply because of unfairness, so that we live with a complication of wounds as we go forward. Sabrina how about you? SABRINA: What was the injustice?

11 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[11:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTWell, what are the wounds that you now have developed in your own heart because of the injustices you have experienced?

11 minutes 46 seconds SABRINA

[11:46] SABRINAI feel abused; expectations that unreciprocated expectations and just really beat down, I feel beat down. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. And again that's one of the results

12 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[12:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTof the interactions you have had. And you both coming to this wounded, from the past and with that toward each other. But I want you to just get in touch a little bit with loving encounter you have had with the birth of your first child, and with your unconditional love with your friend. Let's just take a moment to recapture that because I want you to realize that you are more than the wounds you carry inside of you. You are someone who is capable of giving love and receiving love, it's not all about pain. I just wanted this quiet for a minute, and have you get a sense of that love in your heart, that is just as real as the angers and disappointments and lack of trust. Just let that sink in a little bit.

13 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[13:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd as we do, now let's go to what we call a decision phase of forgiveness. The decision phase is this. Forgiveness is your choice. I am not here to persuade you to forgive one and other, that's entirely your call. If you don't, there are ways to work to be civil with one and other without forgiveness is my point. But I want to make sure that this is your choice to open the forgiveness door. And quite frankly, when I talk to people about the forgiveness journey, where you uncover some of your wounds like we just did, we start this decision phase, that's the scariest part of forgiveness therapy, because that's new.

14 minutes 1 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[14:01] ROBERT ENRIGHTWe're walking through a door you might not have walked through with one and other ever before. And so the possibility of change and how you think about one and other, how you deal with one and other, can be a little overwhelming, it can be scary. But I want to make sure that you understand where you would be going here. So let me reiterate from our discussion about forgiveness; you will be trying to stand and get things done and work things, so that you are not wounded all the time, you will be moving on, so that you can move on well. And you will be working toward trying, if you are ready to cultivate kindness in your heart, toward the other, even if you think they don't deserve it. And I'm wondering if you really want to go through that door with me.

15 minutes 1 seconds JOE

[15:01] JOEYeah. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. You would like to go through

15 minutes 6 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[15:06] ROBERT ENRIGHTthe door. Let's then move into this room of forgiveness therapy. You have just actually gone through a difficult decision, which is to making your choice to try and be kind to each other, you are not going to become doormats, you may or may not reconcile that's entirely up to you, and you are not going to be forgetting, you are not going to excuse the unfairness, we are going to label that as such. But now we are going to be entering what we call the work phase of forgiveness. When you said it's hard, that takes efforts, Sabrina you are absolutely right. What we are going to be doing here is I am going to give you a sense of the work. And the hope that you will carry that with you beyond our one session, so that it will become a part of you. So what I would like you to do now is to start thinking about one and other in ways that go beyond the hurt. Because I want you to tell a story to yourself personally about who the other is, that goes beyond the hurt. And here is the way we are going to start.

16 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[16:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTJoe would you please talk with Sabrina about the wounds in your heart that you know she brought into the relationship with you, that you now know from what we heard today and from your past, tell her the wounds you know she has brought into you and her. JOE: The wounds

16 minutes 46 seconds JOE

[16:46] JOEthat she brought in? ROBERT ENRIGHT: That she brought in before you two got into trouble, that's right.

16 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[16:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTFrom her childhood on what do you about Sabrina's wounded heart. JOE: I think she brought a lot of anger in, a lot

17 minutes 1 seconds JOE

[17:01] JOEof trust issues in, a lot of basically not being able to rely on anybody in her life. So it's hard for her to even look at somebody and to rely on them.

17 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[17:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. And do you see how the bipolar mother, who was profoundly wounded put her wounds into Sabrina's heart?

17 minutes 31 seconds JOE

[17:31] JOEYeah, I could see. I mean her mother is definitely a difficult person. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. So when I hear your

17 minutes 41 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[17:41] ROBERT ENRIGHTstory, what I am hearing you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, that Sabrina was a victim of circumstances that she didn't create. That she didn't deserve and she brought difficulty and with a very wounded heart into that relationship with you. Is that correct? JOE: Yeah. ROBERT ENRIGHT: It is, okay. So when you look at Sabrina, you see a wounded person not just someone who is making life difficult.

18 minutes 16 seconds JOE

[18:16] JOEI won't say all that, I mean people -- all people have past. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Yes. JOE: And somewhat decisions that you make might be from the past and might not be, you know, you make your own decisions here now, not because of what happened in the past. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Sure.

18 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[18:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd do you think any of the decisions today were influenced by the wound that she brought in. JOE: They could be, yes. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. I'd like you at least think about that, because it expands your story, as to who Sabrina is. So with that in mind Sabrina would you tell, Joe not tell me, but tell Joe, the woundedness that you see in his heart, that he brought into the relationship with you. SABRINA: Your relationship

19 minutes 11 seconds SABRINA

[19:11] SABRINAwith your mother, I think that you have carried it so long that you expect every women to leave you, and so instead of allowing someone to leave, you stand on them to stay and you are willing to even break them to stay.

19 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[19:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd what are the wounds that he had from that encounter with his father? SABRINA: With his mother? ROBERT ENRIGHT: With his mother, yes and father really. SABRINA: Well, I think

19 minutes 51 seconds SABRINA

[19:51] SABRINAhis father is an awesome man to have put himself in a position and rise two children by himself. So I don't anything bad to say or regarding that, but as far as his mother, he doesn't know how to love a women, and he doesn't know how to treat a women, because he didn't have that example. And I think that the wound is that she just picked up and left, moved across the street with the boyfriend. And who is now her husband, so he found abandoned. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. Abandonment is

20 minutes 26 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[20:26] ROBERT ENRIGHTa huge wound. What about the father though, here is the father who was also abandoned. And the father had to raise two children by himself that he didn't want to do. What kind of wounds do you think, that Joe's father could have had himself? SABRINA: The hurt of losing

20 minutes 51 seconds SABRINA

[20:51] SABRINAhis wife, and the fear of having to do it alone. But I think it's more you know the hurt of her just picking up and leaving and then leaving the kids. ROBERT ENRIGHT: So now

21 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[21:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTwe have Joe, who has the wound of abandonment from his mother, and a father who is probably bewildered by it all, trying to raise two children. Did your father, Joe inflect any wounds on you? can you think? Not at all. Okay, so he was -- he had his wounds, but he carried them. JOE: Yeah. ROBERT ENRIGHT: How did you think he carried them, what did he do to carry them, so they weren't inflicted on you. JOE: He

21 minutes 46 seconds JOE

[21:46] JOEnever really expressed his emotions, when I came to dad. He probably didn't want to show us his hurt. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. JOE: No wonder it probably hurt us more. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Was he able

22 minutes 1 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[22:01] ROBERT ENRIGHTto reach out and give you love that where you felt loved? JOE: Yes. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. You do have an example there in your father, then you basically said the same things, Sabrina, okay. Now if we think about both of you coming in through this relationship together, I agree with you that how we deal with our present. Does it necessarily have anything to do with the past on some occasions? But I wonder sometimes we can be so hurt by what happened, that it spills over and has to have an influence and someway on how you two interact

3: Agreeing to Forgive

22 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[22:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTas a couple. Let me ask you Joe when you look at Sabrina, and what you say has happened, what's your anger level?

23 minutes 6 seconds JOE

[23:06] JOERight now, I don't have any anger towards her, no more.

23 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[23:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. No, anger at all. Okay. So, do you feel like you've forgiven her.

23 minutes 16 seconds JOE

[23:16] JOENo. ROBERT ENRIGHT: You have not. JOE: No. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. Can you tell me, do you have inside

23 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[23:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTas to why there is no forgiveness? JOE: Because there's still

23 minutes 26 seconds JOE

[23:26] JOEthings happening. You know, you got to stop doing what you're doing in order to be forgiven. SABRINA: Then stop. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Sabrina.

23 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[23:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTYeah, what were you're going to say? [sil.]

23 minutes 46 seconds SABRINA

[23:46] SABRINATalk is cheap. People say, they're going to do a million and one things, and they say them, and then they do something entirely different. So, actions and words to me, I go by action and you can't keep shooting a horse once it's dead. You know, if you've broken something, you know pick up the mess, don't just leave it there, don't step on it, make it worse, don't track it through the house. So, when you say stop, when I say then stop, you know I don't feel like I should have to be stocked, I don't feel like I should have my previous hurts thrown in my face.

24 minutes 41 seconds SABRINA

[24:41] SABRINAAnd so my forgiveness level right now with him is negative 500. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

24 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[24:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTWhat if I told you, that my opinion is, that forgiveness has absolutely nothing to do with how the others acting right now or you can offer forgiveness, even if they're not living up to your expectation. Here is what I mean by that. Both of you right now and you're welcome to this view of forgiveness, but I have a different view, is conditional. By that I mean, you won't budge until the other shapes up, so to speak.

25 minutes 31 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[25:31] ROBERT ENRIGHTWhere you are seeing that the other is still wounding you, and you say I can't forgive because I'm still being wounded. Here's my question, if you keep forgiveness as being conditional on the other's behavior, you could be trapped in the woundedness for the rest of your life. And I wonder if that's being fair to yourself, Joe, and being fair to yourself, Sabrina. What if I gave you a different view of forgiveness and so that it can be completely and utterly unconditional, where you can begin offering mercy to one another right now, no matter what the other is going to do as soon as we're done with the session.

26 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[26:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTReconciling, you might hold Sabrina throughout the high standard. Reconciling may be holding Joe through a high standard. Remember at the beginning, we talked about the difference between forgiving and reconciling. Reconciling is saying, I trust you, we're going to come together in some way in mutual trust. Forgiveness says, I'm going to choose today to offer you kindness, no matter what you have done or what you will do, without there being any expectation on the other's part.

27 minutes 1 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[27:01] ROBERT ENRIGHTWould you think that was inappropriate and unreasonable or possibly were thinking about. SABRINA: I think it's -- I think it's a great idea.

27 minutes 11 seconds JOE

[27:11] JOEI mean, many things we're thinking about, but some of that hasn't happened, how do you forgive someone for something that hasn't happened? ROBERT ENRIGHT: Now what you mean Joe by that hasn't happened? JOE: Well, you said, even no matter what happens, you're forgiven, I mean it's kind of hard to do.

27 minutes 26 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[27:26] ROBERT ENRIGHTWell, what I'm saying is forgiving Sabrina right now even though she hasn't apologized, ask further change behavior. Can you forgive her now by saying I choose to have mercy on her, and by that I mean have kindness towards her no matter what she does. JOE: Yeah. ROBERT ENRIGHT: You think that's possible.

27 minutes 46 seconds JOE

[27:46] JOEIt's possible. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. That's basically what forgiveness is. And you know why

27 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[27:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTI think forgiveness isn't what you were saying five minutes ago, you trap yourself in unforgiveness. And it's possible you could be trapped in unforgiveness for the rest of your life, and the wounds you carrying in your heart now, it's not anger for you Joe, but it is frustration and it's -- you know feeling sad and confused, that could be yours for the rest of your life. And it's possible. Sabrina, the anger you have and that you have shown, it's justified, both of you're feeling so justified because of how you been treated, but you don't have to stay there. Forgiveness is a -- it starts with a decision to be kind to the other, no matter what the other has done or will do to me in the future, where you don't hold out a measurement, a yardstick to offer it. It's freely given, almost lavishly given if you wish and the one who is set free is you. Is it worth, is it worth even going there? SABRINA: For me, it is. JOE: Yes.

29 minutes 6 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[29:06] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. Because you know what could happen if you can be set free in here from being bottled up and the impassive emotions, you could reach the goal that you want which is to be civil and kind to one another, and even giving to one another, but it's going to take practice. And the first practice is to see that you're dealing with both of you. All right. You're dealing with a delicate person, you're dealing with a wounded person, alright. A wounded person from childhood, all right, and into the relationship.

29 minutes 46 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[29:46] ROBERT ENRIGHTSabrina is delicate, her heart can break. Joe is delicate, believe it or not, all right, his heart can break. And I just want you to think about that for a moment, that you're dealing with a person whose heart can break. And how you deal with that person can determine whether their heart will break even more or less. And what forgiveness does is this, it says, we have a history of wounding each other, but I choose to bear the pain of what happened, so I don't throw any more pain, the other person's way anymore. I wonder what you think about that, is that outrageous, is that something you'd like to consider, what do you think?

30 minutes 46 seconds JOE

[30:46] JOEI'd like that. SABRINA: I never wanted to hurt Joe. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay.

30 minutes 51 seconds SABRINA

[30:51] SABRINAFight or flight, I tried to fly, and he wouldn't let me, so I fought. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. SABRINA: I never intend in when hurting him and that's what I had left after, you know telling someone, look you hurt me and for them to pay at no regard. And however I'll make this change or I'll do this and then two minutes later, they're physically intimidating you, I never meant to hurt him, that was, I didn't go into the relationship with, oh yeah, I'm going to jack him up. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Right, okay. I think that's really honorable,

31 minutes 31 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[31:31] ROBERT ENRIGHTand I'm wondering if then given all of that history including fight or flight, you would be able to stand in the pain that you have, and Joe, I want you to see Sabrina's pain right now, and Sabrina, I do want you to see Joe's pain right now and say I am going to try and commit to doing no harm to Joe anymore. I want to protect myself, alright, I'm going to do what I can to protect myself, but I'm going to commit here to do no harm.

32 minutes 6 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[32:06] ROBERT ENRIGHTDo you think you'd able to do that?

32 minutes 11 seconds SABRINA

[32:11] SABRINAI'll honestly try not to hurt you anymore.

32 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[32:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTJoe, how about you? Do you think you could say form this point on, whether you go your separate ways or not, that you would make a commitment with us today, to do your best, to do no harm to Sabrina and bear the pain of what has happened. JOE: I can. ROBERT ENRIGHT: You can. Would you say it to Sabrina? JOE: I will.

32 minutes 36 seconds SABRINA

[32:36] SABRINAI don't know what I will means? JOE: I will not hurt you

32 minutes 41 seconds JOE

[32:41] JOEto my best, and not cause you anymore pain. ROBERT ENRIGHT: You have just given

32 minutes 46 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[32:46] ROBERT ENRIGHTeach other a great gift, because you know what you could have given each other from this point on, for the rest of your lives, continued pain, continued sorrow and continued hurt. By every time you meet each other, whether it's Walgreens or wherever, you could even with a slight sneer, alright or an unkind word, add more wounds to the other person's heart. And what you have just done is profound. And I simply want you to recognize that. Because you were basically given a gift to each other, if you continue to do the work. And here so I think you can continue to do the work. When you meet each other on Tuesdays and Thursdays and every other weekend, I'd like you to engage in this homework assignment, okay. I'd like you Sabrina, before you meet Joe, just think about this. Joe has a story of woundedness, that has gone on since childhood and that together you both have contributed to the wounds. And I wonder if you're meeting the wounded person and I want to do everything I can not to add to those wounds.

34 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[34:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTCould you say that to yourselves before you meet him? SABRINA: Definitely. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Joe, how about you? Could you as a homework think about before you meet Sabrina, thinking that she is a very wounded person with a fragile heart, that she brings that woundedness from childhood and from the encounters you have had and your relationship, so that you will not wound her when you meet on Tuesdays, Thursdays and every other Saturday. JOE: Yes.

34 minutes 46 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[34:46] ROBERT ENRIGHTOkay. That's the beginning of forgiveness. And I just simply want you to think about your own heart right now. I want you to center on your own heart when I tell you story of each of you. Sabrina, think about your heart, Joe, think about your heart. You both have brought considerable wounds into the marriage, more than many, alright. And that has mingled with your relationship which has led to more wounds.

4: Changing Pattern of Woundedness

35 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[35:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd it's difficult to change your pattern of woundedness. Because wounded people tend to pass on their wounds; wounded people tend to pass on their wounds. And in your heart when you see the woundedness of the other, what is the level of frustration, anger, difficulty in your heart that you have toward the other, is that a little less than when we set out together, is it the same, is it more, where's your heart? Tell me about your heart toward the other?

36 minutes 1 seconds JOE

[36:01] JOEI don't have any anger towards her. I think a lot of -- lot of what she thinks is anger is probably more of what she says to me, kind of pisses me off, and I react out of this at the moment. ROBERT ENRIGHT: And you know that reaction

36 minutes 26 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[36:26] ROBERT ENRIGHTcauses pain. JOE: Yes. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. I'm wondering in terms of your father, I'd just like to go back to your father for a moment. Did your father in any way control the children growing up or he expected and that was it, I'm just wondering if any of that was learned from your father. JOE: Controls for what?

36 minutes 51 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[36:51] ROBERT ENRIGHTMaking sure you guys told the line and didn't mess up, and if you did, he let you have that. JOE: Oh, yeah. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. I'm wondering though, if that was part of the woundedness he had from his wife abandoning him, I wonder if at times your father was so controlling that he pass that to you and Sabrina is feeling it now.

37 minutes 11 seconds JOE

[37:11] JOEHe wasn't a controlling person. Nothing like that. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. Was he sometimes engaging

37 minutes 21 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[37:21] ROBERT ENRIGHTand controlling behavior where you learned it and it became too much for Sabrina.

37 minutes 26 seconds JOE

[37:26] JOEI'm not sure. ROBERT ENRIGHT: I just think it's something that for us to

37 minutes 31 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[37:31] ROBERT ENRIGHTthink about. And I'm not saying own that as a story, but I'm sensing it that there're wounds from both the mother and the father and the pattern with Sabrina may have been learned from your father in which case the idea of having to bear the pain, so there's no more sense of Sabrina even being controlled a little bit, happens so that her heart isn't wounded. I'm not saying it's the case. I'm asking you to consider courageously expanding your story if it's true.

38 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[38:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd if that's the case, maybe you can help Joe with that. And of course you can help Sabrina with trust, because borderline often times there's a situation of not trusting, and you know, you inherited from your mother, a sense of not trusting. SABRINA: No, I don't. ROBERT ENRIGHT: And so fight or flight, it would be the way to go, because you have learned it well and flight would be what you have learned. SABRINA: But if you're trying to get away, and they will leave, what you're

38 minutes 41 seconds SABRINA

[38:41] SABRINAsupposed to do? ROBERT ENRIGHT: Right, right. But, right now, here's another

38 minutes 46 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[38:46] ROBERT ENRIGHTwhat you're supposed to do. Ask for justice as you forgive, that's a suggestion for you. In other words ask for fairness, so that you're not feeling intimidated. Ask for fairness, because you have a wound of a lack of trust.

39 minutes 6 seconds SABRINA

[39:06] SABRINAI've asked that doctor, right. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. And now in terms of bearing pain,

39 minutes 11 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[39:11] ROBERT ENRIGHTboth of you might have to bear this. If Sabrina is feeling intimidated because of any sense of control, and if you're sensing her flight because of her woundedness from the lack of trust, both of you in forgiving, but you have to say, I will not inflict that pain which is the idea of do no harm, and I will stand in the pain of our history together. You have a history of pain with one another? And what I'd like you to think about now is what you will do with that history? What you're going to do the next time you are together? When you are planning, remember you're going to tell yourself a larger story of the other of woundedness, and now I'd like you to think about your own weaknesses that you can bring in to that time you're together at Walgreens or wherever you're going to be. You not only bring in woundedness from the other, you bring in your own woundedness that you can inflict if you're not careful. So, I would like you to add your story. Joe, I'd like you to see the woundedness that Sabrina brings in and say what weakness do I bring and will I bring to this encounter. Sabrina, I'd like you to see a wounded heart in Joe and ask what kind of weaknesses am I going to bring into this when he and I meet.

40 minutes 41 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[40:41] ROBERT ENRIGHTAnd try to bear the pain of not letting the weakness, inflict more pain. And I'd like you to practice seeing the wounded heart in the other, which might soften you to be civil, which might soften you to be kind. Because you know I particularly would like you to be kind and caring and loving toward one another, the children. Your mom gave you a certain legacy, not trusting, you mom and maybe your dad, I'm just asking you to think about it, gave you a legacy of abandonment.

41 minutes 26 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[41:26] ROBERT ENRIGHTWhat are you now going to give your children? SABRINA:

41 minutes 31 seconds SABRINA

[41:31] SABRINAI just want my kids to be happy. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Right, right. SABRINA: That's all. ROBERT ENRIGHT: And

41 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[41:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTthey're going to happy in part by how you two decide to deal with each other by bearing the pain and seeing the wounded heart in the other. You see, because every time you slip and don't bear the pain and bring the weaknesses from your childhood into your relationship even if it's to exchange the children at Walmart, you're inflicting a little bit of wounds on them, and little bit more wounds. Do you see how you are standing up and bearing the pain for one another and working on kindness because you see the deep wounds in the other, could help save the children.

42 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[42:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTDo you see that? Okay. So, I'd like you to give a gift to one another, which is to work on this kindness, so that you give this gift to the children, so that they can see civility, they can see kindness and they can even see love, alright. And the love is caring about the other, not conditionally, but unconditionally, no matter what your history has been. And they'll see that, they will pick up on that and you'll leave them a legacy of love. Because if you don't think about that you could leave a legacy that both your moms left to you. And I wonder what you think about that. SABRINA: That shows you don't deserve it

43 minutes 6 seconds SABRINA

[43:06] SABRINAat all. I know everyone might get to feel like my mom has made me feel my entire life. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Exactly,

43 minutes 16 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[43:16] ROBERT ENRIGHTexactly. Joe, what do you think? JOE: I think,

43 minutes 21 seconds JOE

[43:21] JOEI don't want the kids to go through either of us have been through or emotionally been through. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Then let's think about forgiveness as an

5: Closing the Session

43 minutes 31 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[43:31] ROBERT ENRIGHTunconditional, heroic response of kindness and goodness and even love toward one another and when you do that I want you to ask yourself this final question, who am I Joe, not me, who am I Joe, as a person who can now stand up and bear the pain, you know for love to Sabrina through my pain. Sabrina I want you to ask this question, who am I Sabrina, who can now stand up offer unconditional forgiveness to Joe in the form of kindness and respect and even love. So, that I'm deliberately giving love to my children, to our children through my pain, who are you as a person when you do that?

44 minutes 21 seconds SABRINA

[44:21] SABRINAA good mom. ROBERT ENRIGHT: A really

44 minutes 26 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[44:26] ROBERT ENRIGHTgood mom. Yeah, I think you're a really good person to do that. Joe, who are you?

44 minutes 31 seconds JOE

[44:31] JOEA good father, good person. ROBERT ENRIGHT: You're a good father and a good person, and I

44 minutes 36 seconds ROBERT ENRIGHT

[44:36] ROBERT ENRIGHTwant you to remember that fuller story, and it's not a fantasy, it's the truth of who you are and who the other is, the next time you prepare to meet together to not just exchange the children for the day, but to build them up in love. Would you consider doing that for me and for yourselves and for each other and the children. JOE: Yes. SABRINA: Definitely. ROBERT ENRIGHT: Okay. I would like you to continue doing that as homework every single time you're going to meet together and I would like you to email me with how it's going, because this doesn't have to be one session only. I care about you and I'd like to know how it's going. Okay. Thanks for coming in today. JOE: Thank you. SABRINA: Thank you,

45 minutes 26 seconds SABRINA

[45:26] SABRINADoctor Enright. [sil.]