PHI2603-Disc3

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 1 of 20

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Watch the video of the original Hippocratic Oath. How many normative

principles are you able to identify from that original oath that are still

practiced today? Which principle do you think remains the most

controversial? Which principle do you think has changed the most? Which

seems to be the principle that you think should reflect the ONE essential

principle of the physician’s ethos? Why?

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 2 of 20

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Renee Burgess (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/130153)

Monday

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First and foremost I had to find this in an English speaking voice

because although the captions were there my brain just couldn't process

it at all. Once I was able to do that I found many normative principles but

there were two that stood out to me and that was when it discussed the

whole "do no harm" and the mention of abortion.

While the principles of do no harm and privacy are still in practice I think

we can all agree that abortion has drastically changed, then changed

again, and somewhat changed back. There is now a whole community of

medical professionals finding themselves conflicted.  

The principle of not telling the patients business in any capacity and

keeping it private has and will always be the most important and

essential principle. This initiates the trust between the patient and the

medical professionals. Unfortunately from personal experience this can

be a good and bad thing. Good because it's nice to know that you can

speak to your provider in confidence. Bad because there have been

cases where revealing some medical information could have saved a life

or prevented certain diseases from being transmitted. 

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 3 of 20

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Monday

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Hi Renee i completely agree the system is very flawed when it comes

to womans health, i appreciate the take on the privacy issue.

Sometimes its a complete blessing to know that your medical

professional is bound to keep your medical information private but

when it comes to things like STD's im sure it weighs on the doctors

minds knowing they couldnt tell someones partner theyre at risk for

anything. 

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Monday

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Hey Renee,

It was kind neat following along with the narrator. Just listening to the

Greek narrator without knowing what he was saying, the words he was

using plus adding the music to it, sounded soothing to my ears and

light on my heart. Reminded me of the commercial, "Calgon take me

away." LOL! But I went back to view the video in close caption for the

oath to be translate in English. After listening to the oath, I was

shocked to hear all of the, "I will." According to this oath, surely the

medical field have lost their way! The contract of this oath has been

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 4 of 20

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broken. 

Meanwhile the medical field have totally changed in America when it

comes to abortion. The laws in the United States of America have

made abortion controversial. It has found ways to make it easier for

women to have this type of service. Whether it is a pill, surgery, or

some type of drinkable liquid to terminate the pregnancy. I know

today in the city I live in; Catholic hospitals will not perform

abortions.

I also know from personal experience; my daughter was sick and

needed the provider office to send over a prescription. The pharmacy

wouldn't even tell me if they had received the prescription for my

child until my daughter had to muster up the strength to provide

permission/authorization. It was kind of frustrating, not good at the

time and I do understand the precautions of the pharmacy as well as

the provider office. 

Likewise providers no longer go into homes to visit the sick. I know a

couple of insurance corporations are trying to partner with some

health providers to be able to help maintain good health and prevent

illness. They are striving to for world class customer service.

 

 

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Tuesday

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 5 of 20

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Its interesting Mary, that as much as the abortion-rights principle

seemed to have gained complete recognition, this is no longer

the case either Federally, or in half the states of the USA now....

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Tuesday

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Professor I think I see your point about the abortion rights-

principle. Especially since the Supreme Court overturned the

decision of Roe vs Wade. I stand corrected of the point I

made, "the medical field have totally changed in America

when it comes to abortion" Plus after re-reading what I wrote

stand to reason, the entire medical field did not change due

to abortion being legal or illegal in some states.

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Tuesday

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Good point Renee....HIPPA expresses some of the most universal

principles of patient autonomy and privacy in medical ethics.

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 6 of 20

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Monday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 7 of 20

Personally i think the most controversial principle from the original

Hippocratic oath is " I will keep them from harm and injustice." This

principal directly contradicts " I will not give any woman an abortive

procedure." As of recently womans healthcare has been questioned in a

court of law and many woman are struggling to find doctors willing to

actually help them and the issues they suffer from become worse until

the woman is incredibly sick and even sometimes dies.

Many women are fighting the recent abortion bans and legal reforms as

woman who were pregnant and miscarried were denied an abortion and

became septic and almost died because the medical professionals in

their area were unable to preform any procedure to help them. However

this is not a recent issue, woman have been told they're being "dramatic"

when asking medical professionals for help. I have a friend who had an

incredibly difficult time losing weight and was very overweight, she also

had very painful and irregular cycles. From the age 13 until the age 16

she was told by doctors to just lose weight and exercise more and her

problems would go away. No matter how hard she worked or how little

she ate her problems never went away, it wasnt until she went to a 4th

doctor that she was given a proper evaluation and it would found out that

through blood work and a transvaginal ultrasound that she had PCOS and

Hashimoto's. which if left untreated could have landed her in serious

medical issues in the future. 

In conclusion, many doctors do not follow this principal when it comes to

womans health but specifically reproductive health. Morally i find it wrong

to refuse a woman proper care due to her being pregnant or the

possibility of a pregnancy. Woman are often denied hysterectomies and

other similar procedures if they dont have three or more children or

unless their husband signs off on the procedure, but men are often

granted vasectomies without any issue upon request. I feel this is

causing harm and injustice, completely in opposition to the principal. 

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 8 of 20

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Tuesday

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Excellent point and good examples of how women's health issues

seem to remain a serious ethical quandary and a systemic problem

in the heathcare system. I suppose the attention being focused and

heightened awareness of the problem indicates that its a situation

that will change for the better with time....?

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Tuesday

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Wednesday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 9 of 20

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one can only hope that it will change and the change will be

positive in terms of giving women full autonomy when it comes

to medical decisions.

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Thursday

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Yes, I suppose that women have this autonomy

technically-legally, but the problems concern still

unaddressed attitudes and systemic issues.....

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Tuesday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 10 of 20

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Hi Gianna,

I'm glad you included vasectomy in our discussion. I mean, when it

comes to abortion laws, there is a lot of issues, tensions,

conversations, etc. regarding women having abortions but not on

men having vasectomies!  Geesh! (I'm not yelling at you) It is the

men that carries the sperms and women carries the eggs. It seems to

reason; the law should include both parties when it is referring to an

abortion. It's like the law goes after the woman as if she made the

fetus by herself.  I'm just thinking out loud. 

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Wednesday

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thank you for the reply mary i fully understand the yelling lol! it’s

extremely frustrating as a woman to receive proper health care

without spending hundreds if not thousands getting third , fourth

and even fifth opinions until you find a doctor that will listen to

your concerns and take you seriously. it seems like most doctors

just look at us as vessels for bearing children , it’s very sad.

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Renee Burgess (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/130153)

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 11 of 20

Tuesday

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I like how you mentioned the fact that medical professionals have

called women "dramatic". I have first hand experience of this and it's

disheartening that even years later this is happening. Just like your

friend had to keep fighting for this diagnosis I had to fight to get my

doctor to finally after a year get me to a specialist and turns out I had

fibroids and uterine cysts. 

I also like how you mentioned hysterectomy vs. vasectomy. I never

even thought about it from that viewpoint. 

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Wednesday

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Wednesday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 12 of 20

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hi renee i also have endometriosis and some other issues which

went undiagnosed until i was in my late teens because i was told i

was just being dramatic and that everyone gets bad periods

sometimes and i need to stop being a “wimp” (an actual medical

professional called me a wimp, like what is this the 3rd grade!?)

 and handle my problems like an adult. My fiancé has been

considering getting a vasectomy as we don’t want children and i’ve

been denied by 2 OBGYB’s for a tubal ligation or a fully

hysterectomy, which is honestly what i’d prefer , and his doctor

didn’t ask him any questions just told him to schedule the appt

and he will preform the procedure anytime ! it’s ridiculous that it’s

that easy for them but so hard for us. 

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Tuesday

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I believe one of the normative principles that is still practiced today is:

"to apply the dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick. There are

numerous of programs that have been created for our society and to

improve the nation's health. Many corporations are involved into

promoting being healthier in America. They have partnered with some

providers to determine what is the best solutions, such as obesity. For

example, First Lady Michelle Obama created an initiative in 2010, "Let's

Move!" It was dedicated to helping kids and families lead healthier lives.

To me, the most controversial principle is abortion. It raises all type of

emotions amongst women of all colors, race, and creed within our nation.

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 13 of 20

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Especially in Florida. Governor DeSantis signed a bill, Heartbeat

Protection Act (SB 300). After 6 weeks of pregnancy, it will be illegal to

have an abortion in the state of Florida unless the women are victims of

rape, incest and human trafficking, or whose baby has a devastating

diagnosis of a fatal fetal abnormality.  Of course, this bill was signed into

law for Florida was some time shortly after Roe vs Wade (1973 law) was

overturned in 2022 which guaranteed a constitutional right to abortion.

Furthermore, the abortive remedy has changed dramatically over the

years. Our modern society offer different ways of abortion. For instance,

the U.S. Food Drug Administration allowed retail pharmacies to offer two

different abortion pills. One is mifepristone and the other is called Plan B

(morning-after pill).

References

https://www.cdc.gov (https://www.cdc.gov)

https://www.hks.harvard.edu (https://www.hks.harvard.edu)

https://www.flgov.com (https://www.flgov.com)

Abortion Pill v. Plan B: What Is the Difference? - The New York

Times (nytimes.com)

(https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/27/us/abortion-pill-plan-b.html)

 

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Wednesday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 14 of 20

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Good summary of this ethical dilemma Mary.....so what are your

thoughts on abortion and the contemporary debate?

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Wednesday

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Honestly Professor, I don't agree with the abortion law that was

overturned one bit! The law sounds like a catch-22! I can see that

it is a loophole for women who may be promiscuous and and

prefer having unprotected sex, yet on the other hand it burns me

up to see women are not given a choice to make their own

decisions when it comes to their bodies. Also I also know from

personal experience about the HIPPA law; my daughter was sick

and needed the provider office to send over a prescription.  I was

trying to pick up the medication (it was not over-the-counter

drugs), but the pharmacy wouldn't even tell me if they had

received the prescription for my child until my daughter had to

muster up the strength to provide permission/authorization. 

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Thursday

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 15 of 20

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that makes sense to me Mary...and yeah HIPPA confidentiality

is so absolute that I recall, when I was an Investigator for

DCF, a special statute had to be written for Investigators to

access medical histories and documents, since even Law

Enforcement wasn't allowed access to them without a court

order

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Gianna Jackmore (She/Her) (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/58603)

Wednesday

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hi mary , great post ! i love that you included first lady Michelle Obama

let’s move campaign. i remember her changes with school lunches got

alot of backlash from students and even to this day people still

complain about the new “nasty” lunch. Hopefully the supreme court

will fix their mistake and return the right of abortion to woman soon

but if it’s like anything from the past it’s gonna take time and blood

sweat and tears. 

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Mary Harris (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/111354)

Wednesday

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 16 of 20

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Hey Gianna,

Hopefully the superintendent, the board of education, or

whomever makes the decisions for the children when it comes to

breakfast and lunch will change it for the better. If it was left up

to me; I would hire kid chefs, but I chuckled to myself when I

read your response regarding the the "let's move campaign"

because I thought it was a great idea, but my grandchildren (the

oldest one and the youngest one) complained about the lunches

being nasty, my youngest one out of three grandchildren rather

take lunch than eat the school lunch, the oldest one doesn't eat

the lunch at all, but my granddaughter (acts like she been here

before) likes eating the breakfast and the lunch because she says

she wants to eat healthy. Imagine that coming out of 7 year old

mouth, LOL! 

I'm for life, but for the Supreme Court to reverse their decision

again regarding the abortion law will take a million women to

march to Washington, D.C. and set the course of action on every

media platform because I believe this law affects women in more

ways than one! We need to be heard again...it's more than just

breaking the glass ceiling when it comes to employment ethics. I

hope I'm making sense. :-) 

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Heather Tazumi (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/126985)

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 17 of 20

Thursday

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One of the normative principles that I was able to identify was

nonmaleficence. In the original Hippocratic Oath physicians swear to

“abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm or injustice”. It’s

understandable why the Oath includes this normative principle since no

one would want or trust a physician who’s known for intentionally harming

their patients. However, this principle goes too far in the original Oath.

The original Oath has physicians swear to not perform abortions or

physician-assisted suicides. 

Since others have brought up abortions, I’ll focus more on physician-

assisted suicide. There’s no denying that suicide in general is seen as

taking a life – which is why it’s considered immoral. People forget that

individuals who decide to go through physician-assisted suicide are

making this choice as a last resort. Without obtaining the help needed

after multiple attempts, these individuals start believing death is better

than their prolonged suffering – and sometimes it is. Today, physicians

are sworn to protect, listen, respect, and provide the best quality care

possible, acknowledging what their patients want and are comfortable

with. If a physician forces a patient to continue treatment with no sign of

improvement, that patient would be suffering longer for no reason at all.

If the original nonmaleficence principle was still practiced today, would a

physician be breaching the autonomy principle for not performing a

physician-assisted suicide at their patient’s request? There’s a difference

between “doing no harm” and “putting someone out of their misery”.

After comparing the original and modern version of the Hippocratic Oath,

it appears that the nonmaleficence principle has changed. Personally, I

thought the original version portrayed physicians as a higher being than

6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 18 of 20

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thought the original version portrayed physicians as a higher being than

their patients. The modern version portrays physicians as human, more

understanding, and more humble. The modern version recognizes that

physicians are not miracle workers and will sometimes have to accept

death as a treatment.

I think the principle that should reflect a physician’s ethos is

confidentiality. Privacy continues to dissipate as technology evolves. It

keeps track of what we search for then shows us advertisements for it. It

tracks our location. Hackers can steal whatever information they can get

their hands on. Technology has aided in taking away so much privacy that

people have become paranoid that someone is listening to or watching

them through their phone or tablet. It’s common for people to share

private information (medical history or certain preferences) with their

physicians that they don’t share with others. If that information was

somehow made public, the physician wouldn’t be able to lie and say

someone else shared it. Sure, maybe the physician can say they got

hacked, but that brings up the question on how seriously they take cyber

security.

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Yesterday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 19 of 20

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Good summary and that a great ethical distinction you make between

doing no harm, and putting someone out of their misery. Many

medical professionals feel as though this may be the case but it isn't

a healthcare professional's place to literally kill their patients (or allow

them to die), while others claim that doing this is just an extension of

the same compassionate care involved in keeping them alive and

healthy....what do you think?

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Richard Grego (https://canvas.fscj.edu/courses/72848/users/1367)

Yesterday

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6/24/23, 2:30 AM Page 20 of 20