Psychotherapy With group

00:05 IRVIN YALOM: This is the same group about 00:10 four meetings later. 00:15 JULIUS: Good to see everybody. 00:17 TONY: Good to be back. 00:18 BONNIE: Good to see you. 00:20 STUART: You look well, Julius. 00:22 BONNIE: You do. 00:24 JULIUS: Yeah? 00:25 Well, I'm feeling not too badly. 00:30 Have you been--it's interesting, Stuart, that you 00:35 commented about that. 00:36 I appreciate that. 00:43 STUART: I think that we all think about you quite a bit. 00:52 And your situation. 00:55 JULIUS: How do you feel about that? 01:02 STUART: A little nervous. 01:05 It's difficult. 01:07 And I believe we said several weeks ago that we were going 01:11 to try to talk about that a little bit more directly. 01:15 And I don't know that we have. 01:17 PAM: I think I have seen a lot of different words around 01:22 Julius' illness, situation. 01:25 Everybody seems to--how do you feel about that, Julius? 01:31 JULIUS: I'm not sure about your question, Pam. 01:33 What are you asking me? 01:35 PAM: Julius has cancer and that is devastating. 01:39 And somehow we tend to use different words. 01:43 You just used "situation." I have heard other people say 01:48 "illness." I want to check in with people. 01:59 TONY: I'm fine with whatever we say as 02:00 long as it's not confusing. 02:05 JULIUS: You have been feeling confused? 02:08 TONY: Just sometimes I don't understand what everybody is 02:11 talking about. 02:14 I don't know how to put it. 02:18 Always on the spot. 02:18 I don't want to talk about it right now. 02:29 JULIUS: You say you don't want to talk about "it" right now. 02:35 What's the "it?" 02:40 TONY: Sometimes, especially recently with Philip, he uses 02:45 a lot of terminology that is difficult for me to 02:49 understand. 02:50 It's just hard to put my head around things sometimes. 02:59 I just feel dumb sometimes. 03:03 But you guys know that. 03:06 REBECCA: No. 03:07 PAM: Tony, sometimes you say the most straight from the 03:11 hip, pivotal thing to people. 03:15 TONY: That's good to know. 03:17 REBECCA: And I think it is hard for all of us to wrap our 03:19 minds around somebody who has cancer. 03:25 TONY: Yeah, I think I was just saying that whatever the word 03:28 is, like melanoma, malignant, things like that were just 03:31 kind of always--it took me awhile to kind of get 03:37 my head around it. 03:39 JULIUS: Well it has taken me a bit of time to 03:42 get around it, too. 03:43 TONY: I bet. 03:44 JULIUS: And I--I'm glad in some ways, Stuart, that you 03:53 led the meeting off with asking me about that because, 03:59 as we have been talking this last while, for you to go to 04:02 feelings is not an easy thing. 04:06 What is it like for you to tell me that you are 04:10 concerned about me? 04:14 STUART: Well, I am. 04:16 I'm definitely concerned. 04:17 I know we all are. 04:19 And this group is certainly a place where we can come to 04:28 talk to one another and I worry about that being upset. 04:36 And I also know that you are responsible for bringing us 04:40 here together. 04:41 So I have a lot of gratitude. 04:48 JULIUS: Concern. 04:48 Gratitude. 04:50 Feels good for me to hear. 04:52 Obviously I want to know that what I do is of value. 04:57 TONY: Helps me out a lot. 04:58 Well, you know, all of you help me out a lot. 05:02 But like I said a few sessions ago, just, I don't know, 05:08 without this group I wouldn't have a touchstone to be able 05:10 to kind of vent or have just a place to kind of 05:18 depressurize, you know? 05:20 This is good. 05:26 It's simple. 05:30 JULIUS: Simple? 05:32 TONY: It is just easy here. 05:34 Not easy. 05:34 What the fuck am I trying to say? 05:45 I feel like I get to come here and work on just letting out 05:54 things that are pent up or hearing other 05:58 people let it out. 05:59 And for me that is like, I don't know, it adds something 06:03 because it's like I am learning from all of you how 06:07 to do that better. 06:09 Sometimes I feel pent up. 06:15 JULIUS: How has Tony been doing? 06:19 STUART: Well, if you remember early on in our time together, 06:23 Tony seemed to be getting in fights a lot. 06:27 That hasn't happened for awhile, so that's good. 06:34 REBECCA: We have also been confronting people about their 06:36 own shit, which has been really good. 06:39 Like Philip a couple of weeks ago who wasn't, who isn't 06:44 responding a lot directly, and you confronted him on that, 06:48 and I think that was really important. 06:51 TONY: Speaking of which, she just said he 06:54 didn't and then he isn't. 06:55 How does that make you feel, Philip? 07:04 PHILIP: I am wondering if you are accurately 07:07 interpreting my actions. 07:11 I don't pretend to behave in a manner that is normal for 07:17 everyone else. 07:19 This is part of what makes me an individual and 07:23 unique human being. 07:24 It is part of what makes me myself. 07:29 So please, I would suggest you to listen to my words and this 07:37 should accurately reflect my position in the group and my 07:45 place and the contributions that I am making. 07:47 That I don't engage your eyes is not that my eyes aren't 07:51 engaged, they are just engaged inwardly. 07:55 TONY: Inwardly. 07:55 Because I just ask because she is saying that you aren't 08:05 being engaging, and sometimes you aren't. 08:07 I mean you shoot your philosophy to us often enough 08:12 and it's helpful. 08:13 But you just seem really cold sometimes, you know? 08:20 And I think that affects all of us here. 08:24 PHILIP: You find that coldness discomfiting? 08:28 TONY: I--yeah. 08:29 REBECCA: I'm personally, to be candid, wondering how in the 08:33 hell you picked up girls in bars. 08:39 Right? 08:42 I'm not trying to take a jab. 08:44 I'm just--who are you, compared to--? 08:49 PHILIP: Well, first of all I am not that same gentleman. 08:55 The person that I became thanks to the great works of 09:00 the philosophers that are my guide, was the one who I was 09:06 allowed to develop this disattachment which I am 09:14 finding that you are misunderstanding. 09:18 It is a way--Throwing your feelings out upon the ground 09:24 for all to judge and look at is only one way. 09:30 I have a different way of being in the world. 09:34 And I feel it is, I think strongly, it has been of great 09:41 benefit to myself. 09:43 TONY: How does that look? 09:45 PHILIP: How does what look? 09:48 TONY: The way you are being of great benefit to yourself? 09:51 It just sounds like--I don't know, I almost feel a little 09:55 bit judged at the way that we come to this group and we do 09:58 express ourselves and you saying that 10:00 there are other ways. 10:01 Of course you have a different way. 10:02 STUART: But it does seem that Philip has offered many 10:06 contributions that have been helpful to some of us. 10:11 Whether you feel warmly about him as a person or not, 10:15 whether I do, seems off the point a little bit. 10:20 TONY: Fair enough. 10:21 PAM: Yeah, but putting in philosophical interjections 10:23 about things is not risk-taking at 10:28 all for this person. 10:29 This person has spent his entire life detaching from the 10:32 world and, and has stated here--and this is what I don't 10:37 understand, Julius--has stated here that his whole point of 10:40 life is to not make contact with people. 10:43 And yet he is in this group. 10:47 I don't understand that, and I continue not to understand it. 10:52 I think it's fine to have philosophical statements, 10:56 improve us and give us thoughts about how we might 11:01 change, but what is that really doing? 11:04 PHILIP: What you criticize is exactly what I have 11:07 to offer the world. 11:08 If I may connect the dots for you. 11:13 I am here as a student. 11:16 What I am here a student of is to do Julius's job as a 11:24 therapist, as a counselor, to advise others. 11:27 My method does not happen to be of the same ilk. 11:31 It is not the same method. 11:33 That is how I am unique. 11:36 That is what I have to offer the world--an objective, 11:39 philosophical approach. 11:41 It is not different and differences often are 11:44 threatening to people and I understand that and I am 11:47 prepared for the consequences. 11:50 But I stand by my differences because I stand by this point 11:55 of view as being the right one for me and for many others, as 11:59 others in the group, Pam, have said it has helped them. 12:10 JULIUS: How are people feeling? 12:15 BONNIE: I have a question to ask Philip, and I am curious 12:20 about that your eyes are turned inward. 12:24 And I wonder how you feel about what you see inside of 12:28 you, because as we all felt you were such a help to us and 12:35 then with the revelation of how you treated Pam, I wonder 12:40 what you feel about yourself? 12:42 Would you look yourself in the eyes? 12:45 TONY: Any guilt? 12:50 PHILIP: Many years ago I tore myself from the attachments of 12:54 public opinion. 12:55 BONNIE: What about your own opinion of yourself? 12:58 PHILIP: My own opinion is based upon my intellectual 13:01 analyses, my personal faculties, and I would not be 13:08 here--If I believed I was behaving erroneously I would 13:13 behave differently. 13:14 So obviously I feel that this is a very helpful way for me 13:20 to behave and I have the belief that I have something 13:24 to offer to others. 13:25 JULIUS: Philip, I think you may be missing something here. 13:29 People are not asking you--I think Bonnie is asking a 13:33 question about how you make sense of your behavior toward 13:41 Pam 15 years ago. 13:47 Am I right, Bonnie? 13:47 Is that what you were asking about? 13:49 PHILIP: It's no secret. 13:53 I have addressed that I was a sexual addict 15 years ago. 14:01 It is not something that I am proud of. 14:08 Indeed, as you have noticed, I have worked very hard to 14:14 develop how I am today, which is in a direct response to 14:18 that addiction. 14:20 And I am a little bit confused in some ways with the 14:28 vehemence of Pam's reaction, since she went quite willingly 14:37 into a social interaction with myself in which we interacted 14:45 and went our separate ways. 14:51 PAM: We interacted and went our separate ways? 14:54 PHILIP: We did. 14:55 Am I in error? 14:56 PAM: He just called the fact that he fucked me and 15:00 devirginized me a "social interaction." I 15:03 mean how cold is that? 15:06 PHILIP: Do you prefer the term "fuck" to "interaction"? 15:10 Are yours more--how is "fuck" better than "interaction?" 15:14 PAM: You are talking about manipulating a girl of 18 who 15:18 was not only just vulnerable to men but 15:22 vulnerable to her teacher. 15:24 PHILIP: Behavior which I have since fixed. 15:26 PAM: And you manipulated that status and you took me and you 15:30 had sex with me. 15:32 And you not only had sex with me-- 15:35 PHILIP: You had sex with me, too. 15:37 PAM: But you dropped me. 15:39 REBECCA: I'm feeling very uncomfortable. 15:40 TONY: Yeah, me too. 15:42 JULIUS: Track that. 15:42 What is the discomfort about? 15:49 Follow those feelings, Rebecca, Tony. 15:51 TONY: The last thing Philip said is you almost sound like 15:54 you are not taking responsibility for being in 15:57 that interaction with him then. 15:59 You are saying he fucked you. 16:01 I mean, everything that you said is about it being done to 16:06 you, as if you had no will of your own. 16:07 PAM: well, it's very alluring when you are 18 years old and 16:11 your older teacher comes at you and says the right things 16:16 and does the right things, and all of a sudden you are 16:18 dropped with having to deal with him in your class and 16:21 your whole class future. 16:23 The repercussions of that event tragically laid out for 16:29 me for years. 16:32 So, yeah, I want him to take some responsibility for this. 16:36 And, yeah, I feel that this is not--I can take only so much 16:42 responsibility. 16:42 And what I am so angry about is that this man is not taking 16:46 any responsibility and shows no remorse for his actions. 16:51 Look at him! 16:52 PHILIP: Am I not taking responsibility? 16:55 BONNIE: Can you apologize to her? 17:03 JULIUS: What do you think about that? 17:04 Don't respond to yes or no, Philip. 17:07 What do you think about that as an idea? 17:14 PHILIP: The idea of apologizing. 17:23 Well. 17:29 I suppose I--I continue to go back to the situation. 17:43 And I look at it, and, yes, there were certain power 17:49 imbalances, as Pam keeps referring to. 17:52 I was indeed the instructor of her class. 18:00 And yet we had a mutually satisfactory-- 18:03 JULIUS: You are answering something different than the 18:06 question that has been posed to you. 18:08 PHILIP: Yes, how do I--Could you say it again, please? 18:15 STUART: Julius asked you how you felt about the idea of 18:27 apologizing. 18:27 JULIUS: Thanks, Stuart. 18:34 PHILIP: It's not a question to me and my 18:37 outlook of how I feel. 18:41 The question is one--in my viewpoint of the world which I 18:48 understand you don't accept--it is an intellectual 18:52 consideration for me and I see that you don't appreciate 18:57 that, but that is how I am different. 19:02 JULIUS: Philip-- 19:02 TONY: You are avoiding the question. 19:05 JULIUS: Yes. 19:06 I guess I am feeling even more, Tony, I appreciate 19:14 Stuart, you Tony, you kind of pushing Philip. 19:17 And I think you are kind of pushing my work forward, the 19:21 work that I feel needs to be done. 19:22 And I've got to tell you, I recognize in pushing this 19:26 forward, I guess I am more and more aware of the passage of 19:32 time and your not making, Philip, the best use of time. 19:39 And time, because of what I am aware of, is becoming more and 19:46 more precious. 19:49 And I don't want to burden you with that but I feel I am not 19:55 really being honest if I don't speak my mind about that. 20:00 And the way I kind of look at this, Philip, is that you 20:02 spent the first half of your life addicted to sex, and the 20:08 second half of your life addicted to not 20:11 being addicted to people. 20:15 And I'm wondering if there is any way for you to kind of 20:18 create some more working space for you. 20:21 And that is why I am harping on the issue of an 20:23 apology--not because an apology is going to make this 20:29 all pretty and nice, but to create some more 20:32 working space for you. 20:36 Do you know what I mean? 20:37 Something between these two polarities. 20:41 PHILIP: If you could elaborate, actually, on 20:42 working space would be helpful. 20:48 JULIUS: Can anybody help me out? 20:51 STUART: Well, it seems like you're saying that Philip is a 20:55 little bit trapped between his behavior in the past and his 21:01 current--what's the word you continue to use, Philip? 21:05 Detachment? 21:06 Disattachment, yes? 21:07 PHILIP: That acceptable. 21:10 STUART: From people which doesn't leave him--doesn't 21:14 leave you a lot of room to make choices in how you are 21:19 going to interact with people. 21:20 Is that--? 21:22 JULIUS: That's perfect. 21:23 It is kind of like you swapped on compulsion for another. 21:27 Where is your free will? 21:30 Where is your choice? 21:33 TONY: Are you looking for growth, if you are asking for 21:35 working space? 21:36 Do you want to grow into anything more? 21:40 PHILIP: I think I do understand what you are saying 21:45 right now, and I just feel like--I think I am not being 21:55 listened to or something, because all that is in my head 21:58 is what I have said many times before. 22:01 My growth--and I feel that I have made strides. 22:06 If you had seen me before, and one person has, I am a 22:11 different person. 22:13 And my strivings and my growth--how can I see it as 22:19 any other way but this that I have obtained with the help of 22:25 the great philosophers, Schopenhauer, Kant, Nietzsche, 22:27 etc, Plato-- 22:32 I'm looking for growth. 22:33 Indeed, I'm looking for growth. 22:34 How can you say that I am not looking for growth? 22:37 I am pursuing that growth at the expense of everything else 22:41 in my life every single day. 22:42 I go home and I read Schopenhauer and I read Kant. 22:47 And what I am trying to do is obtain a 22:50 higher level of my intellect. 22:53 I would like to-- 22:56 REBECCA: You are growing in one way, Philip. 22:58 Growing intellectually and reading more books is not 23:01 "growth." 23:03 PHILIP: I disagree. 23:06 REBECCA: You can disagree all you want but everything you 23:07 are saying right now is bullshit. 23:09 I'm sorry, but all she is asking for is an apology and 23:11 an answer to a question. 23:12 If you listen, she just wants to know--we all want to 23:16 know--if you are going to just think about giving an apology 23:19 and you go into this diatribe. 23:21 You've said some really amazing things but right now 23:24 all you are doing is avoiding the question. 23:27 TONY: And just a point of process. 23:29 I don't think Pam--were you asking for an apology or was 23:32 that Bonnie? 23:32 STUART: That was Julius. 23:33 That wasn't Pam. 23:33 TONY: Okay. 23:33 GILLL: I think Pam was pointing out that he never had 23:40 apologized. 23:43 PHILIP: I am able to apologize. 23:47 If that is what is necessary, I will apologize. 23:52 JULIUS: Can you appreciate what it means for Pam to know 23:58 that you understand the impact of what happened? 24:05 Am I right, Pam, that that is important for you? 24:09 PAM: If I felt like he meant it. 24:11 I just--I don't think he has changed. 24:15 I look at this person and I see the same person that I 24:19 knew when I was 18. 24:23 Manipulative--I think he's manipulating the group. 24:27 Impressing people with the things that he says, talking 24:30 about a philosopher that is 24:35 counterproductive to the group. 24:39 So I don't know what that apology would mean to me. 24:42 BONNIE: I understand your feelings, Pam, but I'm sorry, 24:45 I wouldn't really want to apologize to somebody who just 24:48 said that to me. 24:52 JULIUS: Say more, Bonnie. 24:53 BONNIE: I just think that, I feel like--Like Gill a couple 25:00 of sessions ago, we had to be able to hear him and you have 25:06 to be able to lay the groundwork in order for 25:09 somebody to be able to say something they 25:13 have never said before. 25:14 And you have to be willing to try even if you are scared. 25:25 JULIUS: That is a really important 25:27 statement for you to make. 25:29 BONNIE: You have helped me to make that statement. 25:32 JULIUS: I'm not going to take credit for it away from you. 25:38 That would be cheapening what you have just done. 25:40 I think you are really pushing your envelope. 25:48 I think it's an important point. 25:50 It is an important point because of your feedback to 25:54 Pam, and it is important because you are out here. 26:00 And I am so glad you didn't end by saying "I'm sorry" or 26:04 "I'm not sure about what I am saying." 26:08 BONNIE: I'm trying not to say it. 26:15 JULIUS: Gill, what do you think? 26:16 Do you think Bonnie is on to something about Pam? 26:20 GILL: I would have to agree. 26:21 I think Pam is still sort of the Supreme Court justice, 26:27 still maybe only judging. 26:35 STUART: I would just like to throw out, Pam, you said a 26:48 minute ago that you didn't see any change in Philip from the 26:52 man you knew 15 years ago. 26:55 And it seems clear that, as Julius just said, maybe all he 27:01 has done is trade addictions, but that is certainly a 27:06 change, isn't it? 27:08 PAM: That doesn't count as a change to me, not for what it 27:11 would mean to me. 27:12 Not what it would mean to other women. 27:15 How many women? 27:16 There was a list of women that he kept, that Molly, my very 27:22 good friend, found. 27:23 A list of all the women and all the positions. 27:27 I'm sorry, but that is really screwed up. 27:31 REBECCA: But Pam, do you expect him to call every one 27:33 of those women and apologize to each and every one? 27:36 PAM: No, and I don't expect him to be in the same therapy 27:40 group as them, either. 27:46 BONNIE: That's true. 27:49 PHILIP: You accuse me of trading addictions for another 27:53 addiction and that they are both the same. 27:55 You say you would have objected as strongly had I 27:59 read Schopenhauer to you. 28:05 PAM: I don't disagree that Schopenhauer 28:07 is a wonderful writer. 28:09 He is a wonderful philosophical writer. 28:11 But in terms of adopting your whole life to being just like 28:18 him, that is counterproductive in my opinion. 28:22 TONY: Pam, what do you want him to change into? 28:27 You know, what would it look like for him to change? 28:36 What would he look like? 28:37 What would the qualities be? 28:43 PAM: I don't know where I can begin. 28:53 He would look at people, for one thing. 28:56 He'd own up to what he had done. 28:59 He'd feel remorse. 29:02 He'd start saying the word "I feel." I could go on all day. 29:12 PHILIP: I come back to fashion, and that many of the 29:17 things that you cannot stand, that repulse you about me, I 29:23 see as fashion. 29:26 ten years ago everybody said "I think" and nobody said "I 29:29 feel." What is that: progress or fashion? 29:34 JULIUS: Philip, how are you feeling right now? 29:36 I'm going to ask you to put aside Schopenhauer because I 29:43 am aware that both you, and you, Pam, have experienced a 29:49 great deal of distress and are experiencing a great deal of 29:53 distress right now. 29:54 It's a lot easier for us, Pam, to see it with you. 29:59 But I've got to believe that it is no less evident 30:03 somewhere inside of you, Philip. 30:06 And I want us to--I know it is not easy for you to keep 30:11 coming here every week and face this barrage. 30:18 But you have to recognize that you are doing some things here 30:21 that are really inflaming the situation. 30:27 Now we can't change you, but we can give you feedback, and 30:33 hopefully you will take that under advisement, your 30:35 personal counsel to use your phrase, and see what you want 30:40 to do with it. 30:46 You don't even need to respond right now. 30:48 It might, in fact, be even more productive if you just 30:52 thought about it for a moment. 30:55 I am aware also that we have been giving this a lot of time 30:59 and there is other stuff that we may need to look at today. 31:02 I'm also conscious of the fact, Stuart, that you 31:06 commented about the group's concern about my cancer. 31:15 And I want to make sure that if that is on somebody's mind 31:19 that we can speak to that, too. 31:21 TONY: It's always on our mind, I would think. 31:26 BONNIE: Yeah. 31:30 TONY: We've got a lot out of this process. 31:35 I would even say we care about you. 31:37 At least I care about you. 31:39 And I think about it. 31:43 It makes me think about my own mortality a lot, too. 31:48 PAM: Julius, you know how I feel. 31:51 You're the best. 31:54 REBECCA: Of course we all think about it. 31:59 We're here every week. 32:01 TONY: It's kind of like an elephant in the room. 32:04 JULIUS: It's kind of like a what? 32:05 TONY: An elephant in the room. 32:06 Not that you are an elephant. 32:10 JULIUS: You mean it is so prominent but we're not 32:12 speaking about it. 32:15 Well, I'll tell you how I would like 32:19 us to speak to this. 32:21 And that is that I think what happens here is precious. 32:27 And I would like us to make the best 32:30 use of our time together. 32:37 I don't want this group to end, but it's going to end. 32:42 We have a number of sessions left. 32:47 I think I am going to be able to fulfill my commitment. 32:52 But when this group ends, I want us to have as few regrets 32:56 as possible about what we did together. 33:02 It is not usual for me to speak like this, so I need to 33:11 check that out with you and see how you are 33:14 experiencing me. 33:15 But I think it is the best way I know of dealing what I'm 33:19 dealing with. 33:23 So when this group ends, I would like for you guys to 33:29 have as few regrets as possible 33:31 about what we've done. 33:32 And I've got to confess Philip, maybe that is part of 33:35 what is driving me with you. 33:37 But in some ways, only because you have been so stuck, and I 33:44 see other people making real movement. 33:51 PHILIP: Julius, if I may. 33:52 JULIUS: I appreciate you calling me Julius. 33:57 That's not usual. 34:01 PHILIP: I want to ask a question about the process 34:10 that I am here to be studying. 34:15 We all have been revealing parts of ourselves, and there 34:22 is a mutual give and take. 34:23 And as a future person in your shoes, I can't help but 34:30 comment that I feel that you have not commented yourself 34:39 upon--I can't tell if you are being forthcoming or not about 34:45 your cancer. 34:46 You spoke about the group's concern. 34:49 I did not hear you commenting upon your 34:51 own personal concern. 34:54 Julius, how am I supposed to behave in the future as a 35:02 therapist, is where my mind is headed. 35:06 PAM: I feel that this is a personal attack. 35:08 This is really unfair. 35:11 You as the therapist shouldn't have to reveal anything 35:14 anymore or any less than you are. 35:17 TONY: I disagree. 35:18 REBECCA: I do, too. 35:22 TONY: Not that I feel you are being disingenuous. 35:24 But how do you feel? 35:32 Is it a concern? 35:33 JULIUS: Of course it is a concern. 35:34 PAM: He's in a really difficult decision. 35:37 REBECCA: Well maybe it would help him, too. 35:42 JULIUS: I don't want to avoid the question, but do you know 35:44 what just struck me, Pam, is that you are always quick to 35:51 look out for me. 35:52 I feel that you don't give some of the other men in the 35:56 room a break, but that you are always looking out for me. 36:00 There is a part of me, obviously, that likes that, 36:03 but another part of me that says we've got to make sense 36:06 of why that is. 36:11 STUART: I feel that way. 36:14 TONY: Yeah. 36:18 PAM: Julius, I just--You are a great guy. 36:24 Every man should be as great as Julius. 36:30 I don't know how to respond to that. 36:32 I don't think that that's my problem. 36:35 You know, I'm just seeing it as it is. 36:39 You know? 36:41 GILL: So the rest of us aren't valid? 36:44 PAM: I didn't say that. 36:45 If I didn't think you were valid at all I 36:48 wouldn't say anything. 36:55 JULIUS: Gill, if that look had words, what would you say when 37:02 you just turned to Pam? 37:04 GILL: The look she gave me or the look I gave her? 37:06 JULIUS: Both. 37:08 GILL: I think the look she gave me said, "No, you are not 37:12 valid." She was even silent along with it. 37:16 I'm still scared of her. 37:22 PAM: See, that's not my problem. 37:26 Why should that be my problem? 37:28 If Gill hides something from us for weeks and weeks, he 37:32 gives us this whole other story about Rose and we really 37:37 empathized with him. 37:38 I feel cheated. 37:39 I feel like I don't know who this person is. 37:42 I think it is great that you've finally come and out 37:45 said what you needed to say. 37:46 I think it is great. 37:48 TONY: Do you think it is valid? 37:50 PAM: Of course. 37:51 I think it is valid. 37:54 JULIUS: So Gill, that is one half of the equation. 37:56 What's the other half of the equation? 38:01 Pam has responded. 38:02 But I want to know what you were feeling when you looked 38:04 over at Pam. 38:08 GILL: Like I said, just scared. 38:13 Like she doesn't think I'm anything, and then when she 38:17 gives me that look I think, "Hey, maybe I'm not." 38:20 JULIUS: And when Pam says, "Julius, you are the best," 38:24 what is that like for you? 38:26 GILL: Makes me feel a little less of a person. 38:30 Not that--I think you are great, too. 38:34 But maybe we could acknowledge that the rest of the men in 38:39 this room are in some way men, at least. 38:43 PAM: Have I not acknowledged that the men are men? 38:46 It's just--it's frustrating. 38:49 GILL: Or insects. 38:50 JULIUS: I need to check something out with you because 38:52 I am very concerned right now. 38:54 Am I doing something that makes you need 38:59 to tell me I'm great? 39:08 BONNIE: Sometimes. 39:09 Julius, I feel like I want you to share with us, and then 39:13 sometimes I don't want to know anything about you, because 39:18 you are our leader. 39:20 And if you can't do it, I can't do it. 39:27 REBECCA: I want to know more about you. 39:29 I want you to share. 39:31 Because I don't want you to be imperfect. 39:35 Because he has problems just like we do. 39:38 TONY: That's tough to live up to. 39:40 JULIUS: You don't want me to be imperfect. 39:42 REBECCA: I don't want you to be perfect. 39:45 You don't have to be perfect. 39:46 You are great, but maybe you're not the best, you know? 39:53 JULIUS: I feel that I am sharing a lot with you guys 39:56 every session. 39:59 It is different. 40:01 It is not historical information. 40:04 I feel I am sharing something with you right now when I ask 40:07 the question, "Am I doing something that causes you to 40:10 tell me that I am great?" Because I've got to tell you, 40:14 it makes me feel uncomfortable. 40:16 It makes me concerned that I am not being seen in a fully 40:21 three-dimensional way. 40:26 REBECCA: I feel like that a lot. 40:27 PHILIP: Julius, I feel that the question that I posed to 40:32 you earlier, I'm coming back to. 40:38 Could it be your avoidance of sharing like the rest of the 40:46 group shares in the same manner that the rest of the 40:48 group is strongly encouraged and sometimes badgered into 40:51 sharing--is your lack of sharing, is that perhaps the 41:01 thing that causes some members of the 41:05 group to call you great? 41:11 And should there be this difference between the role of 41:14 the counselor and the role of the group 41:17 members in group therapy? 41:19 Is there a difference? 41:22 TONY: Really quickly before you answer, I just love that 41:27 you said "I feel" at the beginning of that statement. 41:33 PHILIP: Did I? 41:34 JULIUS: It snuck out, huh? 41:37 It's great Tony, that you caught that. 41:40 I'm not going to evade your question. 41:43 PHILIP: For the second time. 41:47 JULIUS: But you see, Tony, you're able to do something 41:53 with Philip that I think Pam can't right now, and that is 42:00 see him as more than just two dimensions. 42:04 And that is why I am concerned, also, about me 42:06 being called "great." Because if I'm two dimensions on that 42:11 side, it is not real. 42:14 It is not human. 42:16 And I want to be human here. 42:21 That doesn't mean that I am going to tell you everything 42:24 about me, but I am going to tell you what I feel right 42:27 here with you guys about being here with you. 42:33 And I am concerned that if I'm great, and Gill feels like he 42:37 is chopped liver, then that is not good for him, nor 42:42 me, nor you, Pam. 42:46 It's kind of like you categorize people. 42:50 And saying that, you have been terribly, terribly hurt and 42:54 injured by Philip, and your anger in 42:58 many ways is justified. 43:00 I don't want you to misunderstand me about that 43:02 for one second. 43:04 But your anger is something that I think is a very 43:08 powerful force in your life. 43:10 And I've been shielded from it. 43:29 PAM: It's just I can't see every man the same way. 43:33 I mean, I can't give compassion--I just don't feel 43:42 able to give compassion to Philip. 43:46 And you know, it's fine. 43:48 I can see, Gill, where you're coming from and maybe how you 43:51 kept it from us. 43:56 And that's just where you are at. 44:02 That's, I guess, where you are coming from. 44:07 But I can't just equally forgive everybody. 44:13 We haven't even heard--I haven't even heard an apology 44:18 from Philip. 44:19 TONY: Is that what you want? 44:21 PAM: It would be good for a start. 44:25 REBECCA: Well we left off with Philip saying he 44:27 would think about it. 44:27 So maybe he has thought about it. 44:29 TONY: And saying he was capable of an apology. 44:39 PHILIP: What I stated was that if an apology was necessary I 44:43 am perfectly capable of offering one. 44:47 And I shall. 44:48 REBECCA: That seems necessary. 44:50 PHILIP: I apologize. 44:56 REBECCA: For what? 45:04 JULIUS: You've got a chance, here, Philip. 45:07 TONY: Come on man, take a risk. 45:21 PHILIP: I--I am struggling at this moment because I don't 45:33 see the world in quite the same way but I will try to 45:36 interpret my differences into language you can understand. 45:44 I am able to observe that I have caused you pain. 45:51 And I do apologize for that. 45:58 You accused me of having no remorse. 46:01 To me, I have shown quite strong remorse. 46:06 Indeed, I have spent the past 10 years, the past decade and 46:14 more, in correcting the very behavior which you say I have 46:18 no remorse for. 46:19 A daily dose of correction. 46:24 If that is not remorse, I don't know what is. 46:29 That I don't profess myself in the same manner as you do does 46:35 not mean that I show no remorse. 46:40 To me the most effective way is by correcting my actions, 46:43 and that I have done. 46:47 REBECCA: That's really good. 46:51 JULIUS: That is a powerful statement. 46:59 You look like there is a fair bit of feeling still there. 47:05 PHILIP: I--I am not accustomed to this 47:19 and--I'm out of my element. 47:33 JULIUS: You may be out of your element, but it feels a lot 47:36 more real and accessible than when you are in your element. 47:42 PHILIP: Real and accessible, maybe. 47:44 But, Julius, I am not sure I am a big fan of 47:49 these--feelings. 47:57 I chose the course-- 48:00 JULIUS: I'm going to jump in Philip, because I don't want 48:02 you to subtract from what you've just added. 48:05 I want you just to kind of savor that. 48:08 I'm also aware of the passage of time. 48:12 And you said something, Rebecca, that I think we 48:15 shouldn't miss. 48:17 It seemed the idea of being two-dimensional, 48:21 three-dimensional, kind of really captured you. 48:25 You said something. 48:29 Let's pursue that. 48:30 I just need to check with you, Philip. 48:32 Are we okay parking this with you here right now? 48:35 Can we move on to Rebecca? 48:37 PHILIP: Yes, absolutely. 48:42 JULIUS: You sound, Rebecca, like someone who knows what it 48:43 is like to be not three-dimensional. 48:45 REBECCA: Well, Bonnie and a number of other people in the 48:57 group have brought up quite a bit how I preen and how I 49:02 flirt quite a bit. 49:04 And how that's--well, that's all I am, because I think I am 49:14 so beautiful and so popular and how wonderful that is. 49:21 Well the reason I came into therapy with Julius was at the 49:24 age of 30 people stopped looking at me and stopped 49:28 commenting on my outside beauty. 49:36 And you have really ridden my ass about that quite a bit. 49:40 And well the funny thing is that I don't think in this 49:45 group that I don't think anyone has brought up anything 49:50 other than the way I look, or the way you think that I think 49:54 that I look, or the way that people look at me and the 49:58 things I do to try to get men's attention because that's 50:01 all I want. 50:02 TONY: I don't know if that's true. 50:04 It seems like we focus on that, but that we're asking 50:11 often enough what's the inner life. 50:16 And I think we're trying to coax that out. 50:19 Am I mistaken? 50:21 That's what I sense when we are asking more of you. 50:29 More than what--god, I always get tongue-tied. 50:35 JULIUS: You are moving in a good direction, Tony. 50:38 Stick with it. 50:39 TONY: Okay, okay. 50:39 Yeah, it seems like we are asking you to look at more 50:52 than your looks. 50:53 You know? 50:55 We're bringing that up. 50:58 REBECCA: Well I think you need something to look at, because 50:59 they're going too. 51:00 So I would like some direction in some point, in some way, of 51:05 something I can look to--because I don't really 51:09 want to look at anything in the mirror anymore. 51:12 PHILIP: I think, Rebecca, the group has been trying to tell 51:14 you to look within. 51:15 That there is something there that is of value and that, 51:20 indeed, I have stated perhaps too often, that that can be 51:27 the foundation for the rest of your life. 51:29 JULIUS: What do you see when you look inside, Rebecca? 51:36 REBECCA: There is really nothing there. 51:40 JULIUS: What do you see when you look in the mirror? 51:45 REBECCA: Nothing anymore. 51:50 JULIUS: Nothing inside? 51:52 REBECCA: Or outside. 51:52 JULIUS: What would you like to see inside? 52:04 What do you wish was there? 52:13 REBECCA: Someone who could have girlfriends, and who was 52:20 a really good mom to her kids. 52:23 And who pursued things that she liked and didn't think 52:31 other people wanted her to do a lot. 52:35 TONY: What are those? 52:38 REBECCA: Racquetball, of all things. 52:43 JULIUS: Racquetball? 52:44 REBECCA: Mm-hmm. 52:48 I was never any good at it, though. 52:55 JULIUS: Being a good mom, being a good friend--those are 53:01 things that you would like? 53:02 REBECCA: Very much so. 53:03 JULIUS: What is it like to hear that? 53:10 TONY: It sounds like a blanket statement. 53:12 It sounds like you may have--isn't there any instance 53:16 of that at all, of being a good mother or 53:20 being a good friend? 53:22 REBECCA: I don't have any girlfriends. 53:23 STUART: I don't think she said she never does those things, 53:28 but merely that's a goal that she would like 53:31 to have more of. 53:34 JULIUS: Thanks, Stuart. 53:37 BONNIE: It is very profound for me to hear that and see, 53:44 Rebecca, you get upset. 53:46 I feel like beautiful people and popular people can sustain 53:54 themselves. 53:55 And I feel the same way that you do, and I guess that I 54:00 don't understand that. 54:04 REBECCA: Why? 54:05 BONNIE: I always thought that we were just so different. 54:13 JULIUS: And you recognize that there is more 54:15 that you have alike. 54:16 What is that like, Bonnie? 54:19 BONNIE: It gives me confidence. 54:22 JULIUS: Confidence? 54:23 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 54:26 JULIUS: So your work right now, Rebecca, is at least 54:29 being helpful to Bonnie. 54:36 REBECCA: That's good. 54:39 JULIUS: What just happened? 54:43 I'm afraid I can't see, Rebecca, your face. 54:48 All I can see is the rest of your body language. 54:53 What is happening? 55:01 BONNIE: I guess I don't feel so alone. 55:04 I don't have to feel so jealous. 55:14 TONY: I would be so bold as to say it looked like friendship. 55:19 You know? 55:25 JULIUS: You know, Tony, you have your own way with words. 55:30 BONNIE: Thanks Tony. 55:32 REBECCA: Thank you, Tony. 55:36 JULIUS: I said earlier that--Stuart, I hope I haven't 55:43 evaded your question completely about my cancer. 55:49 And we're out of time right now for today's meeting. 55:54 But what I will say, what I do want to say before we stop, is 55:59 that I feel very much alive right now working with you all 56:07 in the way that you've been working today. 56:09 And we'll see what next week brings. 56:12 IRVIN YALOM: We are going to go on for discussion, but 56:29 before we start I would like to spend just a few minutes 56:31 have each of the participants introduce themselves to you so 56:36 we see who they are. 56:37 Maybe you could say something about either your next 56:41 performance, your next play, or your last play. 56:43 But real quickly, let's run through that. 56:46 ALEX ASCHINGER: All right. 56:47 My name is Alex Aschinger and I perform Friday and Saturday 56:50 nights at the San Francisco Comedy College, 56:53 which is over on Mason. 57:01 DEBORAH ELIEZER: Hi, my name is Deborah Eliezer. 57:03 I'm a member of FoolsFURY Theater Company and I also 57:07 produce a performing arts summer camp for kids called 57:08 Swivel Arts, www.swivelarts.com. 57:09 I'm a voice-over and an actor and a dancer and I will have 57:15 Ben tell you about our next show. 57:18 The first weekend in March is "Apartment" at CounterPULSE 57:22 here in the city for those locals, so you can look that 57:25 up on our website. 57:26 Thank you very much. 57:28 BRIAN LIVINGSTON: My name is Brian Livingston. 57:33 I'm also a member of the FoolsFURY Theater Company, and 57:36 I'm about to work on a project with them in 57:38 about a month or so. 57:40 And thanks a lot for having us. 57:48 ANGELA BUSH: Hi, I'm Angela Bush. 57:49 I'm the company manager of FoolsFURY Theater and we have 57:54 some shows coming up which Ben is going to tell you about and 57:56 also I am going to be in the "Vagina 58:00 Monologues" which [Laylee] 58:02 is directing and it is going to be at the Castro Street 58:05 Theater March 9 on a Thursday. 58:08 So please come, that would be wonderful. 58:10 And thank you so much. 58:16 LAYLEE: I'm Laylee and I'm a member of the improve troupe 58:19 that performs at the San Francisco Comedy College. 58:22 I'm part of FoolsFURY which will be having a show in 58:26 May--look for it. it is called " The Devil On All Sides." It 58:29 is about the Serb/Croatian War. 58:30 It is fabulous. 58:31 I'm directing the "Vagina Monologues V-Day 2006." It is 58:35 at the Castro Theatre, Ticketweb.com. 58:38 Thank you so much. 58:45 MICHAEL SOMMERS: I'm Michael Somers. 58:46 I will also be appearing in the "The Devil On All Sides." 58:51 You can go out to see that theater or you can sit on your 58:56 butts at home and watch the premiere episode of "The 58:59 Evidence" starring Martin Landau and Orlando Jones, and 59:02 I have a nice little co-starring role there. 59:04 But what I really want you to come to the show, "The Devil 59:08 On All Sides," but also the show that is my creation 59:12 called, "Uncle Buzzy's Hometown Theater Show." I'm 59:18 Uncle Buzzy and you get my wife's free homemade cookies 59:21 instead of a ticket at the door. 59:23 BEN YALOM: And they're really good. 59:24 MICHAEL SOMMERS: I do the world's greatest chicken 59:25 impression, too. 59:26 So if that doesn't get you there, what will? 59:30 Take a flyer for me or go to UncleBuzzy.org. 59:38 BEN YALOM: I'm Ben Yalom. 59:43 You may have recognized the slight resemblance. 59:45 My father...I'm also the artistic director of FoolsFURY 59:57 Theater, hence all of these people here. 01:00:00 We are a local avant-garde ensemble. 01:00:05 We do performances and training and camps all year 01:00:08 long in the San Francisco area. 01:00:10 We do a lot of dance work and theater work and using things 01:00:14 like masks and all sorts of physical things in addition to 01:00:18 wonderful texts. 01:00:19 We have an upcoming show not this coming weekend but the 01:00:22 following weekend called "Apartment," 01:00:24 three nights only. 01:00:25 It is a company-devised piece starring Deborah Eliezer at 01:00:30 the Counter Pulse. 01:00:31 And then our big show coming up for the late spring is 01:00:35 called "The Devil On All Sides." It will be at 01:00:37 Traveling Jewish Theater where we are a resident company. 01:00:41 It's a wonderful American premiere of a contemporary 01:00:45 French play by an amazing playwright who will be in town 01:00:48 for the opening. 01:00:49 We are very happy to be performing it, and just a 01:00:52 little nervous about spending the next two months full-time 01:00:56 working on it and finding out what kind of wonderful 01:00:59 creative things we are going to have. 01:01:00 So please, check it out. 01:01:01 The Web site is FoolsFURY, like Angry Clowns. 01:01:04 FoolsFURY.org. 01:01:06 And if you are in town, please come see us. 01:01:19 IRVIN YALOM: Okay, let me just give a free association about 01:01:23 the meeting, and then turn it open to you all. 01:01:26 First of all one of my thoughts when I first started 01:01:31 thinking about Arthur Schopenhauer and group therapy 01:01:34 is I wanted to get him in a therapy group and I wanted to 01:01:38 do a historical novel, but it was impossible. 01:01:41 I mean, he died 30 or 40 years before our field began. 01:01:47 I tried thinking of inventing a character, an ex-Jesuit, I 01:01:51 thought, who was well-schooled in philosophy as Jesuits are. 01:01:55 I wasted about six months on that. 01:01:58 And finally gave in--I could not write a historical novel 01:02:02 about Schopenhauer because he was the most isolated man I 01:02:05 have ever encountered in history. 01:02:08 So then I gave it up, wrote another book, and came back to 01:02:11 it and thought, "Well, I want to have Schopenhauer the 01:02:14 person in the book, but I will have someone that is his 01:02:17 clone," and that would be Philip. 01:02:21 And you could go through, as I did in the book, you can get a 01:02:24 whole list of--a misanthrope's manifesto. 01:02:30 So many things about Schopenhauer would make you 01:02:34 think he is the last person in the world to be in the group. 01:02:37 He would say, "Distrust is the mother of safety." "Do not 01:02:44 tell a friend what your enemy ought not to know." "Regard 01:02:48 all personal affairs as secrets and remain complete 01:02:51 strangers, even to our close friends." "We must never show 01:02:57 hatred or anger except in our actions." "It is only the 01:03:00 cold-blooded animals that are poisonous." "From the tree of 01:03:06 silence hangs the fruits of peace." 01:03:09 On and on like this. 01:03:11 So then I thought, well put him in a therapy group, that 01:03:16 is the worst person in the world you can imagine in a 01:03:19 therapy group. 01:03:19 On the other hand, what a kick. 01:03:23 If you could help Arthur Schopenhauer in a therapy 01:03:25 group, you could help anyone. 01:03:29 So that was part of my motivation. 01:03:31 Is there a way we can work in this group to actually change 01:03:34 this person? 01:03:35 Now, this group today for the first forty minutes or so was 01:03:39 at an impasse. 01:03:40 Philip was sticking to his guns and 01:03:44 the group was working. 01:03:45 Often in my novel, I have the group regarding him as a 01:03:49 strange life form. 01:03:50 They circle him, he says something, they don't know 01:03:52 what to make of it, they're chewing on 01:03:54 his words for a while. 01:03:55 But we went through a lot of that today, and finally the 01:03:58 group, in a very different way than the novel, began to find 01:04:02 a way to begin to crack through that. 01:04:04 It was just the beginnings of it today. 01:04:07 And in the novel I went through it 01:04:09 in a number of ways. 01:04:10 One of the ways I went through it was through Pam, through a 01:04:14 number of members of the group revealing things about 01:04:17 themselves, real major, what they thought of as misdeeds, 01:04:22 sins, indiscretions, sexual indiscretions. 01:04:25 Rebecca did it. 01:04:27 She talked about a very brief--forgive me for saying 01:04:30 this, Rebecca--but for a very brief fling as a prostitute 01:04:34 one or two evenings. 01:04:37 And others did a similar thing. 01:04:43 And even Julius talked about his sexual indiscretions. 01:04:49 After his wife died he accepted some of the comfort 01:04:53 of some of the relatives and friends of his wife's, and was 01:04:56 sexually involved with them. 01:04:58 And who else? 01:05:01 Let's see. 01:05:03 Stuart talked about a major indiscretion when he was at a 01:05:07 convention and feels that he might have taken advantage of 01:05:10 someone who was perhaps rather disturbed, and he has never 01:05:13 forgiven himself for that. 01:05:15 So a lot of these indiscretions came out. 01:05:18 And then the point was that Pam forgave them all. 01:05:23 She forgave, eventually, Gill for not telling about the 01:05:28 alcoholism; and she forgave Seymour, and forgave Stuart. 01:05:33 She forgave everyone. 01:05:34 Then the pressure got even greater leverage on her. 01:05:36 Why is it that she couldn't forgive? 01:05:39 That was the beginning of the crack between the two of them. 01:05:43 She started quoting everything involved with Schopenhauer, 01:05:45 and then she let it slip that she majored in Schopenhauer. 01:05:49 And then suddenly Philip could say, "You majored in 01:05:55 Schopenhauer? 01:05:56 Well, that means maybe I wasn't such a bad teacher 01:06:00 after all." And she would have to say, "Well I never said you 01:06:03 were a bad teacher. 01:06:04 In fact, you were probably the best teacher I ever had." And 01:06:07 then the cracks began to come and the impasse 01:06:11 began to break down. 01:06:12 And so it was happening in this group as well, in an 01:06:16 entirely different way. 01:06:19 And then you notice how the leader of the group here just 01:06:25 kept storing things. 01:06:27 There was work to be done in the impasse. 01:06:28 He also had to assess when that work was enough for this 01:06:31 group because you need other work to be done, too. 01:06:34 He heard something that one person said, he heard 01:06:36 something, for example with Rebecca, and he stored it, and 01:06:40 he came back to it when he thought the time was right. 01:06:43 We sometimes think of a theme building, and maybe a time of 01:06:47 theme satiation. 01:06:48 Some therapists have trouble at that point, 01:06:50 letting go of the theme. 01:06:52 You drag on and on, and it becomes lifeless. 01:06:54 So you have to kind of find a way to think, decide when 01:06:58 there is maybe some theme satiation, and see if you can 01:07:00 break in because there are other things waiting to be 01:07:02 done in the group. 01:07:03 And Gill, for one of them was something that 01:07:06 he came back to. 01:07:08 And he came back to Stuart, too. 01:07:10 And then they went into a final 01:07:12 investigation of Rebecca. 01:07:16 When I was a resident, there was an essay that came 01:07:19 out--it's long out of print, I'm sure--by a man named 01:07:22 Saperstein, called "The Beautiful Empty Woman." And it 01:07:25 was just a lovely essay about the problems of the beautiful 01:07:30 empty woman--the woman who is so beautiful that everything 01:07:33 comes to her just because of her flesh or the 01:07:37 way that she looks. 01:07:38 And she never really has to do anything, and consequently 01:07:41 often never has a sense of internal worth, internal 01:07:44 values, internal skills. 01:07:45 And that, in a sense, was what was happening for Rebecca. 01:07:49 So right at the end of the group that was 01:07:50 beginning to open up. 01:07:51 And I had the strong sense that this group was just 01:07:55 mounting in power until we suddenly have to break. 01:07:59 I would have to see the next meeting of this group and the 01:08:01 next meeting of this group. 01:08:02 It was just building up so nicely. 01:08:06 And the inquiries about his health, each time he would say 01:08:11 I'm not going to dodge that, I'm going to go back to it, 01:08:14 I'm going to talk to that. 01:08:17 Time ran out today but we know he will do it at the next 01:08:19 meeting because he can't, I think, say, "There are things 01:08:26 I'm not going to talk about in this group." 01:08:29 Philip was pressing him a little hard about, "this is 01:08:33 supposed to be"--in the novel Philip says, "Well, you are 01:08:36 working on a kind of a Buber "I-thou" encounter except 01:08:40 there is no I in there. 01:08:41 You are letting everyone else reveal themselves. 01:08:43 There was a whole period of time with a lot of 01:08:46 self-revelation. 01:08:46 Why aren't you revealing?" 01:08:48 And then Tony caught the question. 01:08:52 How come you are asking that now? 01:08:55 After all, here you were, this great 01:08:57 philosopher in the group. 01:08:58 Pam came into the group and showed the group you were 01:09:01 living in the sewers for a long period of time, so maybe 01:09:03 you need to knock Julius off his perch as well. 01:09:06 And that was part of the reason why he kept prodding 01:09:10 Julius to reveal. 01:09:11 So that is what I was seeing and feeling about the group. 01:09:16 What questions do you have about this that you'd like to 01:09:19 talk about, or comments or questions to any of the people 01:09:23 that are in the group? 01:09:25 AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: Are you suggesting, with a topic as 01:09:29 crucial as the impending death of the therapist, that it 01:09:33 would not be talked about thoroughly? 01:09:37 IRVIN YALOM: Oh yes. 01:09:38 I am not suggesting that. 01:09:40 It needs to be talked about thoroughly, and it would 01:09:42 stymie the group if it's not. 01:09:44 And it can never be talked about thoroughly enough. 01:09:47 The problem, of course, in the group--and with the limit of 01:09:51 time, we weren't showing that as much here--the problem is 01:09:54 that nothing else can get talked about, because 01:09:57 everything else feels trivial in comparison. 01:10:01 It is hard to talk about other things. 01:10:03 And of course, that has an important positive side, 01:10:07 because you start thinking of, if things really start to get 01:10:10 so trivial or problems start to feel trivial in the face of 01:10:15 death, well, maybe that is because things are trivial in 01:10:19 the face of death. 01:10:19 Maybe we ought to reprioritize what seems important and what 01:10:23 seems trivial to us. 01:10:24 And that's how so many people have talked about how it is 01:10:30 not going into a bleak blackness to think about 01:10:35 death, but in fact thinking about death, incorporating it, 01:10:37 is a way of revitalizing your life. 01:10:42 MOLYN LESZCZ: I will comment also, because I think it's a 01:10:45 very good question. 01:10:48 What I felt in the group was that I wanted to kind of keep 01:10:52 it up in the air without consuming the group with it. 01:10:56 And when Pam talked about how great Julius was, and others 01:11:04 said how great Julius was, I felt this was--I asked the 01:11:08 question, "Am I doing something to elicit these 01:11:11 expressions of my greatness?" And part of what I am thinking 01:11:15 about is, "Are they responding to my narcissistic 01:11:18 vulnerability by buoying me at a time when they might be 01:11:22 concerned about my decline?" 01:11:24 The question, however, didn't get answered in the way I 01:11:27 thought it might have. 01:11:29 But we went in another really productive area, I felt, which 01:11:32 was, if I am two-dimensional to the positive, and others 01:11:38 are two-dimensional to the negative, then we have some 01:11:40 scope to work here to kind of flesh this out. 01:11:44 And we were really we were able to capitalize on that 01:11:47 with Rebecca and Bonnie in the last few 01:11:51 minutes of the meeting. 01:11:53 If it stayed as an elephant in the room that wasn't being 01:11:55 talked about, I think the therapist--Julius, 01:11:59 myself--would have had to go into it in a 01:12:01 more frontal approach. 01:12:03 But I felt we were kind of milking the best benefit of it 01:12:06 without preoccupying the group with it. 01:12:09 IRVIN YALOM: And I thought such a beautiful response to 01:12:12 "You're so great," for him to immediately turn to exploring 01:12:17 that and "What am I doing to pull that greatness from you?" 01:12:20 is a wonderful example of the use of 01:12:23 the self of the therapist. 01:12:25 Yes? 01:12:27 AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: I saw a contrast between the two 01:12:31 sessions, a very strong contrast. 01:12:34 The first was exciting, had emotional depth, seemed to 01:12:38 have direction, its own flow. 01:12:40 And the second act, if you will, kind of lacked 01:12:45 direction, didn't have vibrancy. 01:12:49 Was kind of flat. 01:12:50 And I've been asking myself, what is the difference here? 01:12:55 My thought is, and I would welcome others, too, is that 01:13:00 the question was proposed to Julius of what is going on 01:13:04 inside of him about this cancer. 01:13:08 And masterfully, if I may put it that way--I'm saying that 01:13:12 in a way a little sarcastically--Julius avoided 01:13:15 that question. 01:13:16 And I think the group took direction from that. 01:13:20 The therapist is a model, and as the therapist kind of 01:13:23 avoided that I think others avoided some of their internal 01:13:27 feelings in great contrast to the first session. 01:13:31 Any thoughts on any--did others see these differences 01:13:35 between the two, and what might account for them? 01:13:40 BEN YALOM: Can I speak to that? 01:13:42 I think maybe just one element. 01:13:44 I don't know about the way that things transpired with 01:13:47 Julius in that conversation. 01:13:49 I get the sense that we managed to talk around that 01:13:52 for a while, but gleaned some things from it. 01:13:54 But one thing we talked about backstage if you will, was I 01:14:00 felt, and perhaps incorrectly so, but I felt like in that 01:14:04 first group we brought in an enormous amount of really good 01:14:08 dramatic material from the book. 01:14:10 We skimmed out the major issues for most of the book. 01:14:15 IRVIN YALOM: Some of the major issues. 01:14:16 BEN YALOM: Some. 01:14:17 Yes, sorry. 01:14:20 Some of the major issues. 01:14:21 And I perhaps incorrectly felt that we might have been doing 01:14:26 a disservice here in terms of really looking at the therapy 01:14:30 techniques because we as actors and artists are very 01:14:34 attuned to what are the big dramatic hits that we are 01:14:36 going to get. 01:14:36 And so I was sort of making an effort to refocus us a little 01:14:39 bit as we spoke backstage into what might have been a little 01:14:43 more useful process-wise. 01:14:45 So it may not have played off as quite as good theater but I 01:14:48 hope it had at least as good teaching value. 01:14:51 MOLYN LESZCZ: A comment about the transparency. 01:14:54 I felt I tried to strike a balance between being 01:14:58 transparent about what I felt in the here and now. 01:15:01 I didn't go into great depth about my own sense of what I 01:15:05 imagine it would feel like to be knowing that I had a 01:15:09 malignancy. 01:15:11 But in terms of therapist transparency, we always have 01:15:15 to weight what are the benefits, what are the risks, 01:15:19 in whose interest is this? 01:15:21 And as a therapist I think I would have recognized that 01:15:25 part of the pull would have been to use this wonderful 01:15:27 group to support me, and I felt that I didn't want to do 01:15:33 that to excess. 01:15:35 I felt the way this group could support me would be by 01:15:38 working in a way that would reduce regrets when we hit an 01:15:42 inevitable limit. 01:15:45 So in another session I think there may have been more of a 01:15:51 direct response to the point that you are raising. 01:15:53 I felt we are always walking a tightrope in the issue of 01:15:57 transparency. 01:15:58 And part of what I guess I want to speak to is that kind 01:16:02 of reflective process the therapist has to be engaged in 01:16:06 order to maximize benefits and minimize hazards. 01:16:12 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: I had the unique experience of 01:16:15 co-leading a psychotherapy group with my first late 01:16:19 husband who died of a malignant melanoma. 01:16:22 And I have two comments. 01:16:26 One is that it was a remarkable experience, as you 01:16:29 can imagine, and that the group was very protective as 01:16:33 long as we needed the group to be protective, which is what I 01:16:37 observed, perhaps from my own experience, 01:16:39 that is what I observed. 01:16:40 But the second is that when we no longer needed to be as 01:16:46 protective of ourselves and the group because we were 01:16:49 farther along in that process ourselves, they didn't want to 01:16:54 talk about it. 01:16:55 They wanted to feel a connection. 01:16:59 IRVIN YALOM: How long did the group go on and what happened 01:17:02 to the group? 01:17:03 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: It was a couples 01:17:04 group, and it continued. 01:17:08 I still lead couples groups and all of the couples were at 01:17:11 the memorial service at the University of Pennsylvania. 01:17:14 IRVIN YALOM: So he led the group with you pretty fairly 01:17:17 close to time of death? 01:17:19 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Until it was no longer appropriate for 01:17:21 him to do that, yeah. 01:17:22 IRVIN YALOM: Did he have any questions about 01:17:24 being in the group? 01:17:25 How did he make the decision to go ahead and work? 01:17:30 AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: Much the same way you did. 01:17:33 IRVIN YALOM: I'm really interested in hearing that. 01:17:35 Thanks for that so much. 01:17:38 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: I was really moved by both sessions, 01:17:47 but particularly the last one, and found myself choked up and 01:17:51 really involved. 01:17:54 And that's unusual for me to be so impressed. 01:17:59 It made me feel that the actors should become really 01:18:05 good group members and that Molyn should become an actor. 01:18:17 And then for Irv to write something and to see it 01:18:21 actually come to life must be just the greatest joy that a 01:18:27 writer can have. 01:18:28 IRVIN YALOM: Great pleasure. 01:18:29 AUDIENCE MEMBER 4: I mean to literally be able to create 01:18:32 life with your pen. 01:18:36 There were a couple of rubs for me, just from my own 01:18:42 practice or orientation. 01:18:44 First let me say that the part that really impressed me in 01:18:48 terms of Molyn's therapeutic skill was using what went on 01:18:53 with Pam in terms of being two-dimensional, and then 01:18:56 using it with himself, and then using it with Philip. 01:18:59 That was just such a beautiful piece of work. 01:19:02 And where there were the rubs in both sessions, I just 01:19:06 flinched a little bit, was not acknowledging 01:19:10 opposites and duality. 01:19:13 Like with Pam when she was furious at the beginning, she 01:19:17 wasn't helped or it wasn't articulated that you can feel 01:19:21 both things. 01:19:23 You can be forgiving and you can feel angry. 01:19:26 And with Bonnie I wanted to say to her, "What if you felt 01:19:31 the opposite of a nothing? 01:19:33 What would that be like for you and to try on the 01:19:36 opposite?" 01:19:39 IRVIN YALOM: Good, thank you. 01:19:40 MOLYN LESZCZ: Good comments. 01:19:42 AUDIENCE MEMBER 5: I just want to commend Molyn 01:19:44 and Irv and the group. 01:19:46 I thought it was terrific. 01:19:47 I think you guys could take this on the road. 01:19:49 I think it could stand as a show. 01:19:53 It was wonderful. 01:19:55 The one thing missing from its quite accurate depiction of a 01:20:00 therapy group were silences, which I certainly understand 01:20:05 given this context, but I wonder, Irv or Molyn, if you 01:20:09 had any thoughts in general about 01:20:12 therapists handling silence. 01:20:13 Certainly in a group like this, many of the silences, 01:20:17 should they occur, would have been thoughts of death, the 01:20:20 therapist's death. 01:20:21 But any thoughts? 01:20:24 IRVIN YALOM: I'm not a great fan of silences. 01:20:25 I'm a little bit too impatient. 01:20:27 And I don't want them going on for long time. 01:20:30 But when an unusual silence emerges I will try to dig into 01:20:33 the silence. 01:20:33 I will try to ask members if we could explore exactly what 01:20:38 they were thinking. 01:20:39 Sometimes even a go-around. 01:20:40 "Could we all go-around very quickly and off the top of 01:20:42 your head tell me what is passing through your mind in 01:20:44 those two minutes?" That often can 01:20:46 generate a ton of material. 01:20:48 So I don't like when silences go on for five 01:20:51 minutes in a group. 01:20:52 MOLYN LESZCZ: I felt Philip needed some silence, 01:20:55 though--when I interjected and said "Don't respond; just sit 01:21:00 with this." Silence, of course, can mean a 01:21:02 whole host of things. 01:21:05 AUDIENCE MEMBER 6: I was wondering if you could give 01:21:07 some more guidance on how you have that sense of when theme 01:21:11 saturation occurs. 01:21:13 My sense, for example, in that moment you were just talking 01:21:16 about when you switched over to Rebecca with the 01:21:18 two-dimensional, was that there was 01:21:21 still a lot of juice. 01:21:22 I was wondering about Pam--what was she sitting with 01:21:24 hearing that? 01:21:27 I certainly could be very guilty of 01:21:29 riding things too long. 01:21:30 I tend to think of sort of the Gestalt cycle of wanting to 01:21:33 work it through enough that they can come down and take 01:21:36 some sense out of it. 01:21:39 And you jumped around much more, both in the first and 01:21:42 second, in a way which I was wondering if you were 01:21:44 consciously balancing the group--I couldn't really take 01:21:48 from it, but it worked. 01:21:49 Can you help me understand what you were doing and how 01:21:51 you made those choices? 01:21:52 MOLYN LESZCZ: There is the concept of choice point 01:21:55 analysis, and that in a group--in any group let alone 01:22:01 this group where everything is so compressed--you are always 01:22:05 making decisions about the cost-benefit of 01:22:09 whatever you do. 01:22:10 And you can't milk something completely with one or two 01:22:16 interactions at the expense of others in the group. 01:22:19 So Irv, you have written about something before, that the 01:22:21 group therapist is almost like a shepherd in a sense, 01:22:24 facilitating and making sure that no one gets 01:22:27 left too far behind. 01:22:29 And you have to give something to get something, and 01:22:33 fortunately we don't have to do everything in one meeting. 01:22:38 I will look for other cues. 01:22:40 A lack of emotional intensity, disinterest, body language of 01:22:47 people in the group, that they are disengaged. 01:22:50 Or if a group is really engaged I will probably run 01:22:54 with it further--I will run with it further for sure. 01:22:57 But I am also thinking, if we are doing this, what are we 01:23:00 not doing by doing this? 01:23:02 That goes back to Elaine's comment about the 01:23:04 duality--that there is always a tremendous amount 01:23:07 that is going on. 01:23:09 IRVIN YALOM: And theme satiation--you can recognize 01:23:12 it by there are fewer and fewer people participating in 01:23:16 it as well, and people have dropped off as well. 01:23:20 But it is an error, I think, to let it go on too long. 01:23:25 AUDIENCE MEMBER 7: Like the lady who spoke before I had a 01:23:28 patient in my group who was dying. 01:23:32 Actually he died two months ago. 01:23:34 And he came up until the three weeks before 01:23:38 he died in the group. 01:23:40 And my question is this--because I haven't read 01:23:44 the book so I don't know how that happens in the book. 01:23:46 If you are a therapist and you know that you are dying, and 01:23:50 your group knows that you are dying, what are you going to 01:23:53 do with this group? 01:23:54 Do you find somebody to keep this group going after you die 01:23:58 or do you let the group die with you? 01:24:00 That is my question. 01:24:04 IRVIN YALOM: Both possibilities are open. 01:24:06 This was a long-term group that worked with him. 01:24:08 And you see what happened here the group--he set a time 01:24:15 limit. "We have another year; it is a long enough period of 01:24:18 time. "Other people will bring someone else in--bring a 01:24:21 younger person in over the last couple of months and have 01:24:24 the group go on. 01:24:25 If it is a group that's built for a long time that is 01:24:28 extremely powerful, it feels to me like a pity to me to end 01:24:33 this thing which has become such a great, wonderful 01:24:37 vehicle to just carry people to a safer place. 01:24:41 So if I had my druthers, I would like the 01:24:43 group not to end. 01:24:55 VICTOR YALOM: I think that was a great job. 01:24:56 It really demonstrated many of the 01:24:58 principles of group therapy. 01:25:01 I should add that the actors were part of FoolsFURY Theater 01:25:04 which is a theater company run by Ben Yalom, my 01:25:08 brother, your son. 01:25:09 IRVIN YALOM: Well cast. 01:25:11 VICTOR YALOM: And a couple questions come up for me. 01:25:15 One is the important issue of group selection. 01:25:19 Philip, the lead character here, clearly has what we 01:25:23 would call schizoid tendencies or more than tendencies, Isn't 01:25:28 there a real risk in putting someone like this in a 01:25:31 group--the risk that he could become a deviant member? 01:25:34 IRVIN YALOM: I think Julius was taking a risk with Philip. 01:25:37 But he had a special motivation for 01:25:39 putting him in the group. 01:25:40 He knew him well. 01:25:41 He felt that he could tolerate any discomfort from being in a 01:25:46 deviant position. 01:25:47 Moreover, he was going to be a therapist, and it was 01:25:50 dreadfully essential for him to have this group experience. 01:25:54 And as you have heard already, he is like Schopenhauer. 01:26:00 Schopenhauer would consider being in a therapy group as 01:26:04 his recipe for hell. 01:26:06 And so he wanted to change Philip very much, but he 01:26:12 sensed something in Philip that was perhaps going to be 01:26:15 able to yield a bit and interact with other people. 01:26:19 VICTOR YALOM: Obviously if he can make us of the group and 01:26:22 join the group, it can really address his core issues. 01:26:26 But the question is whether he is able to use the group in 01:26:29 that way and not be too disruptive. 01:26:31 IRVIN YALOM: As you see, Julius worked 01:26:33 very hard with Philip. 01:26:34 Very hard with him. 01:26:35 And there was a background of caring behind that, too. 01:26:39 They had known one another before. 01:26:41 VICTOR YALOM: Any other thoughts just in general on 01:26:43 group selection? 01:26:46 IRVIN YALOM: I think you want to select people who you think 01:26:48 can participate in the work of this group. 01:26:52 If they can't quite engage in the group process and are not 01:26:57 ready to do that, then put them in another group that 01:26:59 works at a slightly different pace in that group. 01:27:03 The other people in that group were obviously all 01:27:06 well suited for this. 01:27:08 And also the length of time--some people have been in 01:27:10 this group for two or three years already. 01:27:15 VICTOR YALOM: Another thing is conflict. 01:27:17 There is a lot of conflict in these groups, and that is 01:27:19 something that members are often scared of when thinking 01:27:23 about group, when you are encouraging 01:27:25 them to be in a group. 01:27:26 Therapists are also often wary about conflict in the groups, 01:27:30 but in fact it can be very helpful and 01:27:33 can energize a group. 01:27:34 IRVIN YALOM: Sometimes it's useful if a therapist can deal 01:27:37 with conflict when it comes their way. 01:27:40 If patients in a group are angry at a therapist or feel 01:27:45 he made an error in such a way, it is better for the 01:27:48 therapist to do some modeling about how to handle this. 01:27:51 And if you have co-leaders in the group, that is a great 01:27:53 time for co-leaders to be helpful for one another. 01:27:59 Members in a conflict, or a pair that is in conflict, can 01:28:07 profit enormously, for once staying with the conflict 01:28:11 rather than breaking the relationship and running 01:28:13 off--being able to stay in there, work things out. 01:28:16 Oftentimes those people come to treasure each other's 01:28:19 contributions at the end of therapy. 01:28:21 That is the person they select as having 01:28:23 helped them the most. 01:28:24 VICTOR YALOM: Right. 01:28:24 And for other members--say, other members that are averse 01:28:28 to conflict--they may be sitting just in the room or 01:28:31 between the members, and that would be an example. 01:28:34 Then you could work with them. 01:28:35 What was it like for them to be sitting there 01:28:38 experiencing conflict? 01:28:39 IRVIN YALOM: Right. 01:28:40 And some people try to make it even easier for them by doing 01:28:43 some role playing for a brief period of time. 01:28:45 It is all another way of conditioning them to be able 01:28:50 to do this in slightly less painful ways. 01:28:52 It's really taking a great risk if you have a group of 01:28:56 your classmates or a group of people that you work with all 01:28:59 the time, and being in conflict with them, that is 01:29:01 much riskier than doing that in a stranger group. 01:29:05 MALE VOICE: Another big theme here in the book has to do 01:29:08 with therapist disclosure for both of these groups. 01:29:11 The disclosure, of course, that Molyn had a fatal illness 01:29:15 and how that impacted the group and group members' 01:29:21 attempts to elicit information about that from him. 01:29:24 IRVIN YALOM: Yes, therapists are participant-observers. 01:29:30 They are observers of the group but they are also 01:29:33 participating in that group. 01:29:34 I feel like doing a lot of groups early in my career made 01:29:39 me much more comfortable with self-disclosure. 01:29:41 I couldn't be in a group with everybody in the group calling 01:29:44 each other by their first name, calling me Dr. Yalom. 01:29:47 I had to be a part of the group more, go by first name, 01:29:51 very willing to talk about here and now feelings I might 01:29:54 have towards anyone else in the group. 01:29:57 Molyn did that at one occasion. 01:30:00 What he did was to say, "I have a dilemma." He is saying, 01:30:04 in effect, "I have a dilemma.01:30:05 On the one hand I want to continue with Philip, but on01:30:08 the other hand I don't want to leave you out or you out." So01:30:11 that is a kind of disclosure, what is going on in his own 01:30:15 internal processes. 01:30:16 So I am very much in favor of certain types of therapist 01:30:21 disclosure, which is not necessarily disclosing about 01:30:23 one's outside life in a way that is not going to be useful 01:30:27 to the group. 01:30:27 So I try to disclose in the here-and-now very 01:30:30 fully in the group. 01:30:32 VICTOR YALOM: Right. 01:30:33 And although many members did ask him about his feelings 01:30:36 about his illness, he didn't get into too much of that in 01:30:39 these groups, but he did kind of give a promissory note that 01:30:43 he would come back to that. 01:30:44 IRVIN YALOM: Yes, he did. 01:30:45 And there would be meetings where he would bring it up. 01:30:47 He made it very clear that he is aware that an unspoken, an 01:30:53 un-discussed issue as big as his illness is going to be 01:30:57 like an elephant in the room. 01:30:58 There is a cardinal rule in that when something really big 01:31:03 doesn't get talked about, then nothing else gets 01:31:05 talked about either. 01:31:06 So he is going to bring it back. 01:31:08 He is going to even start meetings in the future by 01:31:11 talking about his illness, hold little back from them. 01:31:14 VICTOR YALOM: Well, thank you very much for taking the time 01:31:16 to be here today and discussing this. 01:31:17 IRVIN YALOM: You're welcome. 01:31:18 I'm pleased to be a part of this because I think this is 01:31:20 going to be a really good group therapy teaching tool. 01:31:23 VICTOR YALOM: And very different from anything else. 01:32:06 IRVIN YALOM: Unique.