Group Therapy Applicationasteele12
Sweeney, T, & Myers, J. Microtraining Associates (1990). Facing our future: Group procedures with older people
Video Resources on Counseling Older Persons
UNKNOWN (inaudible ) You've got less than five? (laughs)
00:05 UNKNOWN No, I got eight. (laughs) I got seven. I got an eight.
UNKNOWN There you go.
00:10 GROUP PROCEDURES
UNKNOWN Now, I have opt very first quality vegetables.
00:15 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And I don't use any chemicals. I have a nice garden.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And everybody knows I raise them myself.
00:20 UNKNOWN Hmm.
A Supplement to the CURRICULUM MODULES and RESOURCES GUIDE
UNKNOWN Five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
00:30 Sara So, I just have a happy, I've had a happy life and I am happy, 'coz I tried to serve the Lord and that I, I'm just gonna try to grow old gracefully.
00:40 Dr. Tom Sweeney COUNSELOR/EDUCATOR
Tom Sweeney Of all the counseling procedures which might be presented as relevant for work with older persons, certainly group procedures must be high in the list. There are many reasons for saying this but let's hear a few of them as outlined by Dr. Jane Myers, director for three national projects on gerontological counseling including the one responsible for the development of the curriculum and video materials related to this program.
01:05 Jane Myers By doing group work with older persons, we can ah, help relieve some of the isolation that many of them experienced as they grow older. The loss of certain social roles, the withdrawal from being active in the community and, and the loss they experience in terms of friends going away or friends or family members dying and no longer being involved with them. Groups offer the opportunity to get to know other persons and to get to know them on, basically an intimate level to share experiences, to learn what their lives have been like, to have other people listen to your own experiences and one thing that commonly happens with older people is they get a chance to, to check out whether their experiences are, in fact, what other people are experiencing. One of the common questions many older people have, is, is what I'm experiencing normal? Is this what other people go through? And within a group, they learn that, yes, other people are experiencing this and this is how they're dealing with it, so they get some good role models for how to cope successfully. Or they learn that other people may not be experiencing that. What they find is a lot of support from other group members for the things that they need to do or would like to do. They get a lot of encouragement to maybe try out new lifestyles or new patterns. And it's basically a very positive growthful environment.
02:25 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Jane Myers It's an opportunity that many of today's older persons don't have for social interaction and for socialization.
02:30 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Tom Sweeney Dr. Myers has given us good reasons for becoming more familiar with group procedures, useful and group work with older persons. You might be wondering, however, how is it different to work with older person, say, in relation to young people? Also, what considerations are there to be made with respect to groups that have persons with impairments or other special needs? In this program, we will enumerate some of the similarities and differences in working with older persons including some of the special considerations which can be necessary to working successfully with this population. Finally, we'll illustrate some of these differences and considerations through excerpts from actual group sessions. Regarding similarities and differences in working with older persons, Dr. Ellie Waters, president of the Association for Adult Development in Aging, had this to say.
03:20 Dr. Elinor Waters CONTINUUM CENTER DIRECTOR
Elinor Waters For me, in terms of an approach to counseling I think the basic philosophical underpinnings, if you will, either what I wannna do, whether I'm working with somebody who's six, 60 or 90, is to help them take, maintain as much control of their life as possible.
03:40 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters And you may have to that somewhat differently when you're dealing with people of different ages. But the underlying philosophy is the same. (crosstalk)
03:45 Tom Sweeney The same.
Elinor Waters Yeah. I think in terms of, you know, our basic counseling skills of active listening, effective questioning, tender loving confrontation, they're appropriate at any age level. Ah, I think it's important to use the sense of humor than the age level.
04:05 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters That I think sometimes people think that working with older people is really grim.
04:10 Tom Sweeney (laughs)
Elinor Waters I have a ball doing it.
Tom Sweeney Yeah.
Elinor Waters And I think that older people who have survived, have survived in part because of this sense of humor. And their ability to put their life situation in perspective is often important. And I wanna tap in to that and encourage it and make it one of the coping skills that people continue to use. Uhm, in terms of the differences, the biggest one, ah, and I alluded to this earlier, is kind of tripe that older people have lived longer.
04:45 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters What I want that to mean is they've got more experiences, more coping styles, more skills, that they have already developed, that they can draw on in new experiences. And to help them see that track record of survivorship, of coping skills, whatever you wanna call it, that's the difference. Ah, I think another difference is that, you'll have more losses, that we experience losses at every period of our lives that by the time we get older, they're more of them... (crosstalk)
05:20 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters ...and they're cumulative.
05:25 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters And then I find very often in working with an older person, they will be bent out of shape over what seems a face value to be a pretty minor loss, and I'll say, what's going on, I'm losing it.
05:40 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters For what's happening is its cumulative.
Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters And I don't know whether you've, I thought about it recently. I went to a funeral and the funeral parlor where I've been to a number of funerals. And the person whose funeral I attending was not somebody I was terribly close to. But all of sudden it kinda washed over me. The recollections of all the funerals that I had been to in that particular place. So the sadness that I was experiencing was much more... (crosstalk)
06:05 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm. Much deeper. Right. (crosstalk)
Elinor Waters ...than for the person who was dying then. (crosstalk)
06:10 Tom Sweeney Sure. Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters And often, people who have lost a spouse early in life and had a bunch of kids, had to keep going.
06:15 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters You know, they had to take all those feelings and just push them right down. We have one of our peer counselors who says, beautifully, "You know, the first time I came to one of those programs somebody asked me how I felt. I hadn't had time to do any thinking about how I felt," and she goes on and recounts her life. So that's different. I think in working with older people, younger counselors may either get questions about how can somebody your age really understand. Or imagine those questions. It's been wonderful since I have my grey hair and nobody ask me that, not as much as, as they used to. (laughs) (crosstalk)
06:55 Tom Sweeney Used to.
Elinor Waters But it's important and what I say to younger counselors is, let it be talkable, aboutable, (crosstalk)
07:00 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
Elinor Waters you know. But, all of us have dealt with people who are different than we in some other way. No, I've never been 65. I've also never been male. I've never been gay. I've never been black. I've never been Hispanic. And I can relate to people across those demographic lines.
07:20 Tom Sweeney Dr. Waters discussed a number of important similarities and differences in working with older persons compared to younger persons. As she noted, there are more similarities than there are differences particularly when we think of what I'll call the younger-older persons. Those between 60 and 75 years. However, those persons 75 years of age and older are more likely to require the special considerations associated with age and health related impairments. Dr. Myers specifically address some of the considerations which might be necessary for this latter group.
07:50 Jane Myers One of the primary ones is the need for the counselor to attend to the physical setting. It's really important that older people have straight back chairs to sit in, for example, not the big gold throw pillows that we used to use. It's important that the lighting be good so that they can see each other clearly. That nobody is sitting in front of brightly lit window because it causes a lot of glare. Since many older persons have hearing problems, they need to be able not only to see clearly but to be positioned appropriately in the group so that their hearing does not become a limitation. The size of the group needs to be somewhat small as a result of the fact that there are, are a lot of older persons with physical impairments that, that need to be attended to. And the counselor needs to be sensitive to those. At the same time you'll find older people who will use their physical infirmities as an excuse for not coming to group sessions because they're, they're not feeling well. So counselors may have a need to, to set-up contracts to keep people participating in the group experience. In addition, to the physical setting, ah, you may find, as a counselor, some need to be selective in the people you put together in the group. Ah, there are, those older persons who are not assertive and won't talk much and those who will talk a lot. And sometimes you have to be prepared to just keep drawing someone back into the group. You need to look at the problems and experiences that people might have in coming to the groups sometimes. Selection criteria tells you, you might use within a younger group of persons for that type of problem.
09:25 Tom Sweeney Now, that you've had an opportunity to be introduced to group work with older persons, let's watch and listen to a few examples of this method taken from actual groups conducted in various parts of the country. The first illustration is taken from an educational program that involved lecture, class activity and small group interaction. This is an urban setting and you'll note that a diverse group of participants. A small group is led by peer counselors under the supervision of professional staff.
09:50 UNKNOWN You know that your doctor is typically very busy when you see him. And this has bothered me in the past. It often seems like he's not listening to you when you're telling him about your health. Now, you are in the examination room, telling the doctor how you've been and he had his hand on the doorknob and he's not facing, you, as if he's about to leave. This time you are determined to say something to him. What would you say?
10:25 UNKNOWN This is. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Okay. I knew you'd be ready. (laughs)
UNKNOWN This is what I did say. This is ah, my eye, eye doctor last month. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I, ah, I was sitting in there waiting for him after the girl put the eye drops in and then check my eyes and ah, he came in and I said, " Doctor ," and I said, "I've been coming to you for about a year and I don't think you even know what I look like, I want you to sit there and listen to me. I have to talk to you and I don't want you to move." And he, he get very upset. He smiled. He took my hand. He listened to what I said to him. He shook my hand and he left. (laughs)
10:55 UNKNOWN And he left?
11:00 UNKNOWN Uh-huh. I'm waiting for what we've talked about. I told him what I felt then he, he answered me and then he answered my questions and, and this is what I wanted.
11:10 UNKNOWN Did he apologize to you first, or?
UNKNOWN No, I don't think so. He just got a little a frustrated.
11:15 Tom Sweeney Our next illustration comes from a support group for women, led by Dr. Joe Wittmer, a counselor educator and chair of Counselor Education at the University of Florida. Dr. Wittmer has structured the group activity to foster a comfortable level of sharing while practicing listening and responding skills. In this session, participants are sharing the results of an exercise in which each is asked to complete a symbolic shield by drawing pictures in sections of the shield representing dimensions of their life. Each member is then given an opportunity to explain her drawings to the group.
11:50 Joe Wittmer First, you get to share. Which one you want us to share? So you get you, you're on the lead. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN I would like to share number one. No. Number two. Well, number two, which is what I divided into two different sections and that was when you, I think that in thinking about this, it was really hard to put down one moment or one thing when you were truly happy because there were, there were so many of them.
12:15 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And one time I can remember when the children were little. That we used to go for a few days to the beach. They come and (inaudible ) you know, sometimes over to Indian Rocks or (inaudible ) play and wind up, and I can remember the children , well, I have depicted in this top, in the top section over here. (crosstalk)
12:35 UNKNOWN How good. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN The two girls on the, on the ah, show work. (crosstalk)
12:40 Joe Wittmer Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And my son is out waving out there in the waves, and this... (crosstalk)
12:45 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...is me down here waving him back in 'coz... (crosstalk)
12:50 Joe Wittmer (laughs)
UNKNOWN ...he couldn't hear me always when I'm too far. And you won't see my husband in that picture because he slept in the motel, (crosstalk)
12:55 UNKNOWN (laughs)
UNKNOWN in the coon(ph). (laughs)
UNKNOWN In the, in the airconditioned. (laughs) (crosstalk)
13:00 Joe Wittmer Mom is here? Mother is out... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yeah. That's right.
Joe Wittmer ...with the kid but it's a happy time?
UNKNOWN It is a happy time.
13:05 Joe Wittmer Very happy time. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN A happy time. And I never eat or see a chilly dog without... (crosstalk)
13:10 UNKNOWN A chilly dog.
UNKNOWN ...packing it to beach. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN 'Coz this was our... (crosstalk)
Joe Wittner Reminder.
UNKNOWN ...a treat. Uh hmm.
Joe Wittmer A chilly dog, uh-huh?
13:15 UNKNOWN Did you, did you do, do you like chilly dogs? You know what I'm talking about if you do? (crosstalk)
Joe Wittmer Yes, yes.
UNKNOWN And then the second one is, later on, when all the children have grown up, and this is from the front porch of our mountain place, where we can look out and ah, the sun, that we see the sun setting behind the Blue Ridge and the tower on the left is ah, a mountain, it's our town mountain that has the Winston Salem TV and antenna... (crosstalk)
13:40 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...out there. And that was always happy 'coz we have, we have that place since 1976, so we had 11 years of... (crosstalk)
13:45 Joe Wittmer Uh hmm.
13:50 UNKNOWN ...really happy times were not even before we stopped working when, when I pay back four times a year, for a week at a times so. (crosstalk)
13:55 Joe Wittmer Both of them are away from home?
UNKNOWN Away from home, but then they we're happy. (crosstalk)
14:00 Joe Wittmer On vacation almost or a ah. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yes, right. But there were happy times at home, at home, too, but these were special. (crosstalk)
14:05 Joe Wittmer Did you have, you're saying you had difficulty with this when trying to decide which is the most happy time or. (crosstalk)
14:10 UNKNOWN Yeah. And even at, at home, just the times at home, too, 'coz there were, there was a lot of happy times.
14:15 Tom Sweeney Our next illustration comes from a support group of women, for which I was co-leader with two women counselors. We've met several times with an open-ended agenda under the title of personal growth. Some of these women had known each other as youngsters in school. This session focused on expectations for self and others in interpersonal relationships. The first excerpt focuses on a woman who feels very deeply, that she must meet other people's needs. We've been using early life recollections as a technique for understanding the current attitudes and behaviors of members. One of her earliest recollections helps us uncover this underlying theme to her relationships and opens the possibility of new alternatives for us to assist her in the future by reframing this thing.
15:00 Maggie I just had three sisters too and I was the youngest one of them and that we were all real close that we, my oldest sister was more like a mother to me then I felt bad when she passed away.
15:10 Tom Sweeney Uh-huh.
UNKNOWN What is it that you could remember about her when you were small, something that you did one day?
15:15 Maggie Oh, she gave me a whip in one day because my mother was sick and, and I wouldn't help her with the dishes, and she whipped me that time. That's only time.
15:25 Tom Sweeney How did you feel when that happened?
15:30 Maggie Well, I felt bad.
Tom Sweeney And when you say you felt bad, you felt bad because what?
15:35 Maggie Oh, because I didn't do what she said for me to do.
Tom Sweeney Oh. Okay. So, ah, it's important to you to do the things you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do them?
15:45 Maggie Yeah.
Tom Sweeney And that's probably been very important throughout your life and, and I imagine when you get into a situation, Maggie, where you haven't done what you're supposed to do, you must feel really bad about it.
15:55 Maggie Yeah.
Tom Sweeney You know, uhm. (crosstalk)
16:00 UNKNOWN Is it also true that when people need you, you can't turn them down?
Maggie Sure is. (laughs)
16:05 Tom Sweeney Yeah.
Dr. Tom Sweeney Now, you see this technique used with another member who readily acknowledges the accuracy of one of her life themes.
16:10 UNKNOWN One, one day they, I knew they were gonna go some place. They didn't tell me anything about it. And uhm, when they come out of the car, I was sitting in that seat, and grandma said, "What are you doing in there?" I said, "Well, I thought I climb in here in this Sudan," and she said, "How did you know we were going?" They've gone up to (inaudible ) to some of the royalties?
16:30 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I don't care about going to, going to the royalties but I want to be in that car. (laughs)
16:35 UNKNOWN The Sudan. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN I was there when they got to the car. I was there and already sitting in their seat. Grandma said, "Well, I guess she's gonna go with us."
16:40 Tom Sweeney (laughs) How did you feel about that?
16:45 UNKNOWN I loved it. And I was enjoying, (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN enjoying going in it, it's an open car, didn't have a top of(ph) works. (crosstalk)
16:50 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN It's open.
Tom Sweeney So it sounds like ah, you're a lady who always... (crosstalk)
16:55 UNKNOWN (coughs)
Tom Sweeney ...once you knew where you wanna go, there was no stopping you?
17:00 UNKNOWN That's right. And when I go any place, I go with a, in my mind I'm gonna have a good time.
17:05 Tom Sweeney Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN No matter what the consequences I'm gonna have a good time.
UNKNOWN And whose the usually the first one to show up sometime(ph)?
17:10 UNKNOWN (coughs)
UNKNOWN Now, you put me on the spy. Me, I'm always early.
17:15 Tom Sweeney Yeah.
UNKNOWN Do you know how I knew that you show up first in places even if I hadn't seen you here come in first, how would I know that?
17:25 UNKNOWN (coughs)
UNKNOWN What did you tell us in the early recollections about who that to the top of the stairs first?
17:30 UNKNOWN (laughs) Me.
17:35 UNKNOWN (laughs)
UNKNOWN And who got to the car first? So, what we'd like you to understand is that the things that you remember that, that have that importance to you when you were really young still have today. (crosstalk)
17:45 UNKNOWN That does work on you, doesn't it? I never saw that but I'm always, I never, will let anybody have to wait on me.
17:50 Tom Sweeney As we rejoin the group on another occasion, they've been discussing another member's difficulty and offering the receiving expressions of affection, this was true in the family as well where it was difficult to offer hugs or kisses to one another.
18:05 UNKNOWN Well, they know I'm always there for them, if they need anything they come to me for it. I need anything, I go to them, we talk a lot.
18:15 Tom Sweeney Do you tell them that you love them? (laughs)
18:20 UNKNOWN Not in so many words.
Tom Sweeney What would happen if you're dead?
18:25 UNKNOWN I don't know. Probably I'm dead. (laughs)
UNKNOWN Sometimes when people start to talk to people in a different way, if they preface or, or say a few words first like, "You know, I've never really talked like this before and this is really hard for me to say but it's a, ah, I feel it's important to say it." It's like a bridge over to that, that island that you've never been to... (crosstalk)
18:50 UNKNOWN Yes.
UNKNOWN ...before. And if you just say those few words, like this is really hard for me or you know, I want you to listen to what I have to say. Then you can get the other words out like, "I really love you but I don't tell you very often."
19:00 UNKNOWN Sometimes even in written word makes it one step up to being able to say it.
19:10 UNKNOWN Right.
UNKNOWN It's just like on Mother's Day when they get you all these flowers and stuff. And I feel embarrassed like that, I feel like, like I say (inaudible ). (laughs)
19:18 UNKNOWN What?
19:20 UNKNOWN And those guys, when they got me how wonderful I am and all that, I said, "When the girls, would they like." (laughs)
19:25 UNKNOWN Yes.
UNKNOWN No, you shouldn't do that. No, you shouldn't it. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Why you say that?
UNKNOWN I don't know, I think maybe to, to pass off that I'm embarrassed. (laughs)
19:30 UNKNOWN Oh, I love it. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Why would you be embarrassed? (crosstalk)
19:35 UNKNOWN Oh, that, that make, that make, (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN I don't know but I am. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN that make.
UNKNOWN Do you suppose that something like the person comes to visit and says, "Oh what a pretty house you have," and you say, "Oh this is so dirty" and, and it was called discounting the things that people say to you. So, it's really not her uhm, saying "You don't love me" or "I'm not good enough" but what it is is covering up, and have, any of you ever say that when people say, "Oh, what a pretty dress" and you say, "Oh, these rags."
20:00 UNKNOWN Oh, yes.
20:05 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN But it's a, it's more like a habit where something that they've been taught is, (crosstalk)
20:10 UNKNOWN Yeah.
UNKNOWN is, is probably what was done to them or their parents said, and that's what they've learned to say also and that what she's saying is, is covering up that feeling of being not quite comfortable.
20:20 Tom Sweeney One interesting side on this session was how it ended. There was a spontaneous outpouring of hugs by and for everyone including the television crew, and no one held back including the woman who had said earlier in the session that she just could not give or receive a hug even from her children . Naturally, rapport had been established in which taking was possible within the group. Early recollections as used in these illustrations might lead you to believe that there are simple projective technique from which to derive quick rapport and useful insights. While the latter tends to be true, like many other techniques demonstrated by experienced clinicians, they can seem deceptively simple. The appropriate use and full benefit of the techniques illustrated in this program, however, must be understood in a broader context and be practiced under the supervision of knowledgeable clinicians. Ethical practice can require nothing less. Let's take a look at some of the special considerations which can apply to the older or physically impaired persons that we mentioned earlier. In the following group, you will notice that some members have obvious impairments. By keeping the group small in size, using chairs appropriate to the comfort of those who have hip or leg difficulties and limiting the length of the sessions, you are able to facilitate the participation of some persons who might otherwise not join. There are many more examples of members not hearing well or being distracted by rooms that are too cool or too drafty. Safety is another consideration. Throw rugs or highly polished floors can be dangerous particularly in snowy or rainy weather. Accessibility for persons in wheelchairs, with walkers or other such devices as require a special consideration should be anticipated. Resensitivity to these matters will result in a much higher participation and retention rate of group members. Well, there's a lot more that you want to know about using group procedures with older persons. If you have an idea now that this is an excellent way to end their lives in a helpful way, you've got the main message. It's a natural part of their lives both formally and informally. We just have to utilize our knowledge and skills to help focus the outcomes on positive growth. Look for opportunities to do this in your supervised experiences, and you'll never regret it.
22:40 INFUSING GERONTOLOGICAL COUNSELING INTO COUNSELOR PREPARATION PROJECT DIRECTOR Jane E. Myers, Ph.D. UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA PRODUCER Thomas J. Sweeney, Ph.D. OHIO UNIVERSITY A PRODUCTION OF Ohio University Telecommunications Center POST PRODUCTION ASSISTANTS Dana Anderson Dianna L. Kersh Special Thanks To: Mr. Don Loftus AV MEDIA DIRECTOR OFFICE INSTRUCTIONAL RESOURCES UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, GAINESVILLE, FL CAMERA ASSISTANTS Robert Rankin Jana Raup George Preisinger MANAGER INSTRUCTIONAL TECHNOLOGY CENTER OAKLAND UNIVERSITY ROCHESTER, MICHIGAN Special Thanks To: ALACHUA COUNTY OLDER AMERICANS COUNCIL GAINESVILLE, FLORIDA ATHENS COUNTY SENIOR CENTER ATHENS, OHIO GAINESVILLE HOUSING AUTHORITY GAINESVILLE, FLORIDA THE VILLAGE NORTH FLORIDA RETIREMENT VILLAGE, INC GAINESVILLE, FLORIDA TROY COMMUNITY CENTER TROY, MICHIGAN WALTER P. REUTHER SENIOR CENTERS, INC. DETROIT, MICHIGAN THIS VIDEO PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED WITH SUPPORT IN PART BY GRANT # 90AT0331 FROM THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION ON AGING. Trigger Vignettes for Gerontological Training Part I.
UNKNOWN I got seven. I gotta eight. (laughs)
UNKNOWN There you go. (laughs)
UNKNOWN Ah, it's a card... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Get(ph) up.
UNKNOWN (inaudible ).
23:39 UNKNOWN Yeah. Well, I have of, very first quality vegetables... (crosstalk)
23:40 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN and I don't need any chemicals, I have a nice garden. (crosstalk)
23:45 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And everybody knows I raised them myself.
23:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
A. Normative Experiences of Aging B. Older Persons with Impairments
UNKNOWN Five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Pull, one.
24:00 Sara So, I just have a happy, I've had a happy life, and I am happy because I tried to serve the Lord and that I'm just, gonna try to grow old gracefully.
24:15 UNKNOWN This program has been designed to provide you, the viewer, with an opportunity to learn about some of the thoughts, feelings, and experiences of older persons, as they will share with us from a series of interviews. Without having to study demographics, or read a lot of textbooks, you can (inaudible ) what has become known as the "Graying of America." Our parents and grandparents are living longer than generations before them. We will be living longer than any generations before us. We want to help you to begin exploring some of the implications of this phenomenon through the following vignettes. As indicated in the instructor's guide, there are at least three ways by which to respond to them.
24:55 1. DISCUSSION
UNKNOWN First, by stopping the tape and discussing the feelings and implications of the comments shared by the speakers.
25:05 2. ROLEPLAYING
UNKNOWN Second, through re-enactment or roleplaying of the situations described. And then, processing these experiences after the activity.
25:15 3. SPONTANEOUS RESPONSE
UNKNOWN Third, stopping the tape at any point for the purpose of giving a helping response as though you were the listener and attempting to give an appropriate response to the speaker. Now, let's proceed to our first illustration.
25:30 A. Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 1: Fixed Income
Jane Myers Are you all on fixed incomes also?
25:40 Mary Uh-huh. You're very much right.
Jane Myers So, when the, the services that you pretty much have to have go up without you're having any say about it. (crosstalk)
25:45 Mary That's right. We just. (crosstalk)
25:50 UNKNOWN Whenever you, you would rent go blow up.
Mary That's true, and. (crosstalk)
25:55 UNKNOWN The medication that I take, most of them you have to go, ah, (crosstalk)
Mary Get rough.
UNKNOWN doctor's bills, and things that they have it.
26:00 Eleanor (inaudible ) goes up. The medicare gives us what is a 0.3 percent or just hardly anything... (crosstalk)
26:05 UNKNOWN Right.
Eleanor ...added to you. And as soon as that news hits worldwide growth rates go up, medication goes up, the doctor's bills go up, you know, and so (inaudible )... (crosstalk)
26:19 Mary (inaudible ). (crosstalk)
26:20 Eleanor ...with this, with just a little percentage of increase. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN (inaudible ) prove they aren't gonna work. (crosstalk).
26:22 Mary If you get two, if you get an increase of three dollars, it will cost you the average of 28 dollars a month for that increase that you believes that whatever you previously had.
26:35 Jane Myers How do you adjust to that? Do you develop budgets?
Eleanor Yeah, you just have to. (crosstalk)
Jane Myers You just live with that less? (laughs) (crosstalk)
26:40 Mary Or go with that more. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN More with that. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN More. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN That's exactly what you gonna less. (crosstalk)
26:45 Jane Myers That you have to be in a budget. You have a budget that, is it written or not?
UNKNOWN Oh, no, it's in my head. Uhm, I can go to the grocery store and not gonna take a certain amount of money, and I will always stop before I got it I was, before I got it spent. The line(ph) always know when to quit.
27:05 Jane Myers Because you're used to doing it?
27:10 UNKNOWN Uh-huh.
Jane Myers Do you, do you have a budget, Mary?
Mary Well, I'd, like she said, in my, in my head, I do because I didn't want my bills on and then what I can do and then I've have to come within my act(ph) or stay. It's hundred(ph) as much as possible, but that's paid because I've had car trouble, and I've lost a tooth from not being able to pay off the extra money to go when I should have go to the dentist because of all these other bills that I have to pay, you know.
27:45 Jane Myers And if something comes along. (crosstalk)
Mary If something comes along, you just ah, you're just in a loss.
27:50 Jane Myers But meanwhile, you've got your pinning(ph) classes; it's kind of a financial strain to do something with so much fun. (crosstalk)
27:55 Mary That is, that is really and, of course, they've asked for donations, you know, to help with their but(ph) so far, it has been to, that I know of. Hmm.
28:05 UNKNOWN I live a little not, like my activities in the billing and I don't ah, I supposed to get reimburse for some of it, but I don't never tell them all of it though. I put a lot of it on my own shoulder.
28:20 Mary Yeah.
UNKNOWN But the first thing that comes out is my money to my church.
Jane Myers Uh hmm.
28:25 UNKNOWN We thought that it will make a lot of play to it and I, I got to multiply what you have. So uhm, I sent a lot of money around the world, not a lot of money, but to me it is.
28:35 Jane Myers Uh hmm. That is the most that you can do?
28:40 UNKNOWN Uh-huh.
Jane Myers Get you a nice (inaudible )
28:43 UNKNOWN I make a lot of play (inaudible ) I'm not calling on the phone ah, will let, not before (inaudible ) that he have gone off that certain project. So I told that we're down for a certain amount of money, I get calls from ah, Billy Graham and ah, uhm, Charleston Heston(ph), and you, you name it and I get them.
29:00 Jane Myers Because they know you're really (inaudible ). (crosstalk)
29:07 UNKNOWN They know how much that (inaudible )
29:08 Jane Myers Now, how about you, Eleanor(ph), do you have to have a budget too?
29:10 Eleanor No, unlike with the other two, uhm, bills come first and then what's left, then I try to live on it.
29:20 Jane Myers Uh hmm. What would you. (crosstalk)
Mary Because you really have a group to plan or plan budget.
29:25 Jane Myers Uh hmm.
Mary You just mainly explore(ph) in your meds.
Eleanor Uh hmm. I've had so many doctors . They all through these plans through and I don't know. It takes a lot to prevail.
29:35 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
Jane Myers Most of you sound like medical bills are, are among the highest items that you have to pay out?
29:40 Eleanor Well, yeah, it has been their share.
29:45 Jane Myers It must been different to share?
Eleanor Well, I had this, uhm, what they call polymyalgia, which hit me last October. And I'm kind trouble with my heart because of the medications with (inaudible ) doctor for the heart, cardiologist and, and so I said I have a cardiologist, and ophthalmologist and uhm, rheumatologist. (laughs) I never had all of these things before. And it's really, it's not funny, but it's just, you know, it's just a necessity.
30:20 Jane Myers Uh hmm.
End of Vignette 1: Fixed Income A Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 2: Government Policies Hurt, Too!
UNKNOWN So the folks who didn't have much, anyway, were getting less.
30:35 UNKNOWN Were getting less.
UNKNOWN Yeah. True.
30:40 UNKNOWN So, how do you get by now?
UNKNOWN Well, I, ah, ah, I'm just is getting by. I'm just is. 'Coz you take my wife who's sick on medicine, been sick on medicine for overall 27 years. And right now, she under the doctor . She have to go to the lab once a month and have her blood drawn because she on a blood thinner. She had a blood clot in here, you see.
31:10 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And ah, Dr. Banks(ph) put on on the blood thinner. Well, all right. She have to go to the blood bank and have that blood drawn then they call about the banks and tell him how it is. Then uhm, she called Dr. Banks(ph) that afternoon and Dr. Banks(ph) told her how to take the medicine, right on. (crosstalk)
31:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And that medicine costs too, boy. It, (crosstalk)
31:35 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN it ain't cheap.
End of Vignette 2: Government Policies Hurt, Too! A. Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 3: Double Jeopardy: Single & Older
UNKNOWN And the person that lives alone is really falling to the cracks into a bottomless pit. The, ah, they, they really have it rough if they live alone.
31:55 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I managed to get by because I got through the depression in the war. And if anybody lived through the depression in the war, and has any smarts at all, they can manage their money.
32:05 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
32:10 UNKNOWN It isn't the money we need. We need moral support and lots of things, and we shouldn't be discriminated against. Now, if some, a man and a woman living together, they've got two pensions. And it's very easy to keep the house. It's the one-person household that's up against it.
32:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And I have lots of friends like that.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And many old people own their houses and there's always repairs.
32:35 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN But somebody else can sell their house and go into government housing and they haven't got a thing to worry about. And, if they're in government housing, many times they automatically, everybody in it gets ah, commodities. And those are hard to get. (crosstalk)
32:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And they should be available to more older people. It would help out those people that have big expenses for their home.
33:00 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
End of Vignette 3: Double Jeopardy: Single & Older A. Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 4: Growing Old - Gracefully?
Eleanor I always tell to myself, "When I get old, I won't be like that." You know, a person that I'm thinking about not now but at the time, I, I won't be like that. I'll grow old gracefully. I find myself doing the things, you're saying the things, you're acting the same way, you know. I didn't have. (crosstalk)
33:30 Mary Well, I have, I did too, because I used to, when my mother say. You would have told somebody, she was 50. And I thought, "Oh, half a century. Oh, my goodness." (laughs) And ah, when you reached that, she could be more than I could. And she was 82. And here I am, just 66. You know, and, ah, I looked at my younger, my daughter and I thought well, I did more than you do. There are times, but I really don't.
34:00 Jane Myers How do you grow old gracefully?
34:05 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
Mary I don't know. It's been a wonder. (crosstalk)
Eleanor That's kind of (inaudible ) and I don't know 'coz I'm not. And I'm telling you don't, a while ago. I feel feisty about things and crabby, and kind of upset and then I'm used to all these feelings like a present person.
34:20 End of Vignette 4: Growing Old - Gracefully? A. Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 5: Job Discrimination
Thelma Vriend People are reluctant to believe this. Younger people. Ah, I'm, I remember this research class where I was talking about the fact that ah, when you're older, it's harder to, to get your foot in the door, to get a job. That people just do not pick your resume out of the pile. And they were saying, "Oh, no this isn't true." You know, and then some of the women in the class, who were a bit older were saying, "Oh, no that's not true of you." And I said, "Oh, yes, that is true of me." Even after the class was over, some of them came up to me to say, "Ah, you, I hope you don't really believe that because you see, you have so much to give. And you are so alive. And so vital, you know." And I said, "Yes, I am all of those things. However, I do not get picked out of the, a pile of paper, because nobody knows that." They just see the, the age. They see the number. Or, if they do see me in person, they see the grey hair. And the rest is lost until you, you know, really get to know the person. Now, I don't feel that I'm at a disadvantage. Personally, I feel that I can do, and that I have a lot to give but society doesn't, generally does not believe this.
36:10 End of Vignette 5: Job Discrimination A. Normative Experiences of Aging Vignette 6: Life Gets Better!
UNKNOWN Did you retire from working because of injury then?
36:25 UNKNOWN Oh, no. I didn't retire from that. I just felt like I had made enough time with the city then, I retire.
36:35 UNKNOWN Okay.
UNKNOWN So, I went 36 years, and that's enough.
36:40 UNKNOWN Well, why, why did you start picking up the broom and doing some other work?
UNKNOWN Well, on the contrary, I was trying to keep myself together for this is (inaudible ) got them in here.
36:50 UNKNOWN Well, sir, are you figuring you're gonna be just the cane if you just sit down. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN That's right. I don't wanna see that. I got stiff, it might have been here.
36:55 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Well, that would make it s lots of folks. They don't get up to stir a rod. Then it get stirr the for them. That's all in the form. Head off to rally (inaudible ).
37:06 UNKNOWN Do you have any health problems?
37:10 UNKNOWN Oh, no. I got good health.
UNKNOWN So, you don't take any medicines or anything?
37:15 UNKNOWN I don't take my medicine in a long, long time.
UNKNOWN Well, tell me, how is life different from you, for you, now, say, compared when you were 50?
37:20 UNKNOWN Oh, life is better than it was when I was 50. (laughs) (crosstalk)
37:25 UNKNOWN Why do you say that?
37:30 UNKNOWN Well, I don't have to wake us all. And then, I get some money. Then, if I feel like going home sitting down, I can go sit down.
37:40 UNKNOWN So, you really have more freedom now.
UNKNOWN I got more freedom.
37:45 UNKNOWN You don't have to be out there, (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN nine to five or eight to five and... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN ...never on a... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN ...Monday to Friday and. (crosstalk)
37:50 UNKNOWN Nope.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Sure don't.
UNKNOWN So you work as much as you wanna work.
UNKNOWN I work as much as I wanna work. Just allowed 4 hours a day. And so, I've made that. Then go home and do something else, the rest and so. (crosstalk)
38:00 UNKNOWN You come in at noontime and leave the, that sounds like banker's hours.
38:05 UNKNOWN Yeah. I leave life for fly(ph). (laughs)
End of Vignette 6: Life Gets Better! B. Older Persons With Impairments B. Older Persons With Impairments Vignette 1: Unexpected Decline
Jane Myers Have you experienced any changes in your lifestyle since you've been taking these medicines?
38:30 Eleanor I get, yes, I can't do as much as I used to do. It's only that I get tired easier, and then I stop before I get finished with what I'd like to do. You know, I have these ideas of things I like to do but it doesn't always work in. And ah, I don't know. It seems that something's gone wrong that. That I'd hate to think that a lot of things seemed to have changed since I've been on that medication. But I do find that my memory has changed since I've been on that prednisone. I forget, I was forgetting before but now, it is really bad.
39:10 Jane Myers Anything in particular that you forget, how many times do you notice? Is that more than hours?
39:15 UNKNOWN No. Just everyday, more times about this. Well, little things and sometimes big things.
39:25 Jane Myers I know it's frustrating.
UNKNOWN Yes, yes, that's the word, frustrating.
39:30 Jane Myers Uh hmm, because it's different and it's a change and it's not something you asked for.
39:35 UNKNOWN That's right. I sure do. I didn't know it existed till I got it.
39:40 Jane Myers Do you do anything in particular to compensate for memory change? Do you write things down?
39:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
Jane Myers Do you keep a calendar?
UNKNOWN Uh-hmm. Yeah, a calendar. But my medication is a thing that I have to keep track of. And I have a note on a slip of paper on the table. And I write down when I take it. And I, you know, don't remember that I have taken it because I have the problem whether I've taken it or not. And I don't know, somehow, I could be quite careful with that.
40:10 UNKNOWN Because, otherwise, you might take it twice? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Then you really have to (inaudible ). (crosstalk)
40:14 UNKNOWN Or not take it at all.
40:15 End of Vignette 1: Unexpected Decline B. Older Persons With Impairments Vignette 2: Cataracts
UNKNOWN What a typical day, what's your typical day? (crosstalk)
40:25 UNKNOWN I will make about 150 or 200 a month, visits a month... (crosstalk)
40:30 UNKNOWN Uh-huh, uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...ah, contacts with the church. I usually go out on Wednesday. Every Wednesday is church day. It's my day to go to the hospitals. And, I go to North Region and to the (inaudible ) Regional and to Shands. I don't go to Shands every week, but when we know someone is there, I do. (crosstalk)
40:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. Do you drive yourself?
40:55 UNKNOWN Oh, yes, I drive.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Just yesterday, I was told I couldn't drive at night anymore, but ah, I could drive in the daytime.
41:00 UNKNOWN How do you feel about that?
UNKNOWN Oh, I was just, I was just devastated that I can't drive at night. But, there lots of people, they say they will pick me up tonight, someone is picking me up to go to the village for a dinner tonight. And Monday night, someone is picking me up.
41:15 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I can drive, you see, I could go down to church on Wednesday night. It's daylight but it's dark when we come back.
41:25 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And so I'm just beginning, I don't know how it's gonna work out. But I may have cataracts, and when I get back maybe I can see all right.
41:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN But I could still drive in the daytime. I drove to, to Lamberton for Christmas, 500 miles up and back... (crosstalk)
41:40 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...by myself... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...for Christmas. That is, it doesn't want. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Is this, is this, this doesn't ah, I would think you know, this is not the first time you've been told that you can't do something or you have to be limited? Or it is, (crosstalk)
41:50 UNKNOWN That's the first time.
UNKNOWN it is the first time? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN First time.
UNKNOWN And, that's. (crosstalk)
41:55 UNKNOWN You've always been able to come and go and do these things? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Oh, yes, and I still will be, yeah.
UNKNOWN I can, you could do a lot of this in the daytime, driving.
42:00 UNKNOWN (laughing) You never let that stop you?
UNKNOWN No, that's not gonna stop me, now. (crosstalk)
42:05 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN They just announced, the preacher's wife just, well they just heard it yesterday. (crosstalk)
42:10 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN So, I just said, last night, someone picked me up.
UNKNOWN But, I'm, I'm afraid, I don't want to take it away. And, if you should get caught, you see, driving at night, then they'd take your driver's license from you.
42:20 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
End of Vignette 2: Cataracts B. Older Persons With Impairments Vignette 3: Elder Abuse
UNKNOWN Why don't you come more often?
42:35 UNKNOWN Well, my granddaughter seems to (inaudible ) they'd bring and give me two days and the other day I'd have to pee. She don't believe me. She, she, she won't tell me or otherwise, she's known it, the crack, and was (inaudible ) house and back gradually.
42:52 UNKNOWN She bought crack with her, with her mother ? (crosstalk)
42:55 UNKNOWN Yeah, and they'd do.
UNKNOWN All right. So. (crosstalk)
43:00 UNKNOWN She leave, she leave the house going down if, if gonna take inflict on her behind the, she stared(ph) at me (inaudible ). (crosstalk)
43:10 UNKNOWN Oh, yeah. Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN (inaudible ) And I've been living in the apartment on my own. I got them good. I started moving with people with (inaudible ) sometimes (inaudible )I could be, I couldn't do help. Saying more than (inaudible )... (crosstalk)
43:31 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN get out one with cheese. She's got a shawl and then (inaudible ).
43:40 UNKNOWN So, you used to live by yourself in the apartment and now you're living with your niece ? (crosstalk)
43:45 UNKNOWN Niece , niece , yeah. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yes. And, how long you've been living with your niece ?
43:50 UNKNOWN That was, since just before Christmas.
UNKNOWN Just before Christmas. (crosstalk)
43:55 UNKNOWN That was, yeah.
UNKNOWN Okay. And then, she get money for helping to take care of you? In all your money?
44:00 UNKNOWN Yes, sir, as you know.
UNKNOWN And now, she uses it for crack though?
44:05 UNKNOWN Crack, I don't see it.
UNKNOWN You don't see it.
End of Vignette 3: Elder Abuse B. Older Persons With Impairments Vignette 4: Medical "Miss" Treatment
UNKNOWN We'll, Mary, you've just been living with pain in a short time. You didn't tell us before what happened to your ankle?
44:25 Mary Well, in February, it was raining when I was still out into the clubhouse where we have our RSVP which is about our interior work making a little (inaudible ) and cards and different things for, uhm, them to give to the nursing homes and different things. Well, anyway, I didn't see the pothole(ph) and I stepped in, and, and it twisted my ankle, and it broken the joint. Well, I went, finally, I called my doctor and ah, he was not there. So, being on Medicare, you've know, you just don't run to another doctor. So, I thought, well, maybe I've just sprained, so I've tried getting around for several days. And finally, I just ah, well, I might, when he had made an appointment because he'll be back on Friday. Well, it was normal. But anyway, my grandson brought the car. I've got a pair of crutches, and got to the doctor. They x-rayed it, they didn't find, they didn't find the break, so that made me hobbled around for more weeks with a broken ankle. And we tell them everyday, call him and saying, "Please." I know it's broken. I've said because every time I hold my foot down or lift my foot, I'm just about go into orbit. And finally, well, get back down later after a month. And uhm, talking to two more doctors they looked at it like this. And they just passed me all by, you know, just like I was something else, didn't, mild(ph) for the x-ray. So, I really got disgusted ah, and they told me if it still hurt, come on back and I said, "I don't know how much hurt I want, want to do." Well, the nurse told me that my doctor won't be back until, I guess, maybe on Thursday or Friday and to come on in because she might be home. And I told him I said, "I can hardly might get in here." And I said, "My, my foot is just as better or worse than it was when I first came here." And he said, "Well, we better x-ray it." So, he x-rayed it and found out that it was broken all the way through the joint. So, he sends me to a certain doctor, to Dr. Bloy(ph) who put the cast on it. I had a big cast for a while. So, I've been going back to him with it, and he said they had done a little haggling, and that ah, he might have to do some bone graft in it. So, I won't go back until the 21st, but I think it's gonna be okay.
47:15 Jane Myers Make sure I have this straight, you, you hurt your ankle and you went to the doctor and said you thought it was broken. (crosstalk)
47:20 Mary Uh hmm.
Jane Myers And they looked at it and didn't x-ray it?
Mary No, he x-rayed it, (crosstalk)
47:25 Jane Myers Okay.
Mary but then he said it didn't show in the first x-ray.
Jane Myers Oh, okay.
Jane Myers It was a month later before the breaks show?
47:30 Mary Before, before I convinced them it was broken, that they made their second x-ray and found it was broken.
47:35 Jane Myers Did they wrap it for you the first time?
47:40 Mary No.
UNKNOWN That's why I don't want doctors.
47:45 Mary No, as I've said, I had been doing everything that anybody would do for a sprain, you know, uhm, but told me to keep it elevated which I tried to do and I had obeyed, I have obeyed that. They told me to keep it elevated higher so it would heal or mend or whatever. And ah, if I felt ah, if it relieves some of the pains to put ice packs, and then do it in warm water which I did all that. And I borrowed a wheelchair and I borrowed crutches. (Laughs) And, and here I am just, you know, just every time I think, well, they won't have to spend any money and sending me all the trip to the moon 'coz I'm gonna make it without it, you know, the pain is so bad. I'm trying to convince them that, that it, that it had to be broken for it hurt so bad.
48:40 Jane Myers And how did you feel when they finally said it was broken?
48:45 Mary Well, I knew it was. I mean, I was, I was relieved that the stupid people, I don't mean it, you know.
48:50 Jane Myers Did they apologize to you?
48:55 Mary Well, not very much.
Jane Myers Ah, I would find that particularly frustrating to. (crosstalk)
49:00 Mary It is, very much so. But I tell you what, I think that before it's over, I hope to tell, you know, when I asked why, that when somebody trust to tell him that they hurting, I don't think it's just because they are only, got aids and pains. That there's gonna be something if they keep telling me over and over, they should go ahead and x-ray again.
49:25 Jane Myers Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
Mary It's not gonna cause them anything.
49:30 End of Vignette 4: Medical "Miss" Treatment B. Older Persons With Impairments Vignette 5: I'm Not Old!
UNKNOWN He said to me, "I feel sorry for you old people." And, I thought, I said, "Well, you don't need to feel sorry for us." I said, "Feel sorry for yourself." And I think that that is the attitude and it's, it's possible that it's the parents that causes them to have that attitude. Now, everybody doesn't have it.
50:05 Jane Myers Right.
UNKNOWN But, can you imagine anybody stand out to you and say, announced, "I feel sorry for you because you're old."
50:10 Jane Myers Well tell me, sounds like that made you a little angry, did that make you angry? (crosstalk)
50:15 UNKNOWN It did. It did. It did. It made me angry.
50:20 UNKNOWN (Laughs)
Jane Myers Yes. And you're still mad about it, aren't you?
UNKNOWN Yes, I am. Because I am not old.
50:25 UNKNOWN (Laughs)
Jane Myers Tell me what old is? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN My body is old, but my mind is not. And I, I don't consider myself an old person.
50:35 End of Vignette 5: I'm Not Old! Trigger Vignettes for Gerontological Training Part I. PROJECT DIRECTOR Jane E. Myers, Ph.D. University of North Carolina, Greensboro PRODUCER Thomas J. Sweeney, PH.D. Ohio University EDITOR Lisa D. Olken Ohio University A Production of Ohio University Telecommunications Center Trigger Vignettes for Gerontological Training Part II.
UNKNOWN Ah, of course, it's a little bit of what you got. You got less than five?
51:05 UNKNOWN Sorry, I got eight, seven. I got eight. (laughs)
51:10 UNKNOWN (Laughs)
UNKNOWN There you go. (crosstalk)
51:15 UNKNOWN What's that mean?
UNKNOWN I just called the (inaudible ). (crosstalk)
51:18 UNKNOWN There, there maybe what you have.
51:20 UNKNOWN Yeah, well I have of, very first quality vegetables. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And I don't use any chemicals. I have a nice garden. (crosstalk)
51:25 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And everybody knows I raise them myself.
C. Coping with Later Life Transitions D. Issues of Older Persons
UNKNOWN Five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, Pull. One, two. (crosstalk)
51:40 UNKNOWN So, I just have a happy, I've had a happy life and I am happy 'coz I try to serve the Lord. And I, I just gonna try to grow old gracefully.
51:55 UNKNOWN This program has been designed to provide you, the viewer, with an opportunity to learn about some of the thoughts, feelings and experiences of older persons as they will share with us from a series of interviews. Without having to study demographics or read a lot of textbooks, you can see around you what has become known as the graying(ph) of America. Our parents and grandparents are living longer than generations before them. We will be living longer than any generations before us. We want to help you to begin exploring some of the implications of this phenomenon, through the following vignettes. As indicated in the instructor's guide, there are at least three ways by which to respond to them.
52:35 1. DISCUSSION:
UNKNOWN First, by stopping the tape and discussing the feelings and implications of the comments shared by the speakers.
52:45 2. ROLEPLAYING:
UNKNOWN Second, through re-enactment or roleplaying of the situations described. And then processing these experiences after the activity.
52:55 3. SPONTANEOUS RESPONSE:
UNKNOWN Third, stopping the tape at any point for the purpose of giving a helping response as though you were the listener and attempting to give an appropriate response to the speaker. Now, let's proceed to our first illustration.
53:10 C. Coping With LaterLife Transitions Vignette 1: Smooth Moves
UNKNOWN If we could all just realize that this is a stage. For instance, the life and stages as we go along we called it start to school. But then we graduate from high school. And then the next is (inaudible ), then we get married and we go through this stage. Well, all these stages mean a lot at that time. But if as we move to another stage we could just forget that ah, the things that were of ah, so much importance and the previous stage may not be needed now at all. Just discard those things together, probably and move on to the next one.
53:55 UNKNOWN Let go and take advantage of where you're going.
UNKNOWN This is, this has been my philosophy. I didn't ah, leave home with a lot of feelings that attached to other things that I just couldn't get along without. Ah, I did, did bring some things with mementos and things like these ah, have no ah, real value. And if I were to lose them it wouldn't be that big deal after all. I don't need them anymore. So, well, I just, just let it, let it pass, that's that.
54:30 UNKNOWN But I've been trying to work with one woman who has moved in and she keep saying, "Well, I did all of these and I had all of these, and I left all of that and I sit for now just stop and think. Everybody, there's not a person in here who didn't go through exactly what you're going." But she's having a real hard time, but we are working with them.
54:50 UNKNOWN How long has she been here?
UNKNOWN About a month.
54:55 UNKNOWN Oh. She's got so, wants to go yet, doesn't she? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm, uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And we usually have, we try to work with those people who still are having a hard time. We have one who's been very ill, in the hospital. And she is having a terrific time coming back and adjusting, I don't know. I think it's a type of depression. (crosstalk)
55:15 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN But I'm not psychologically trying to do it. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN So, we need to care for her. Yes, we can't be, (crosstalk)
55:20 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN you can't do some of these things for these people. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN There's some attitude that varies with person's, one woman who came here was just anxious to get here. She knew that this would be the place where she should be. And she could hardly wait for the time. Ah, others resist it. Oh, I'm not that old yet. I'm not ready yet. Even though they are. They just can't make up their mind for this last step. This is the last phase but they, they don't accept it as the last.
55:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. So there, there's, so there's a denial of even getting old. (crosstalk)
55:55 UNKNOWN Oh, yes. Yes. Very much so.
UNKNOWN All right.
UNKNOWN That, that's a common ah, remark when you speak to them about coming here. "Oh, I'm not that old yet," you know. Even though they are.
56:05 UNKNOWN (laughs)
UNKNOWN Well, they look at age in a, in a different way. We looked at it, "Well, why not come here? Then we don't have to, whenever we wanna take a trip, we do not have to the, take care of the house because it's all really locked up." And we can get friends to pick up our mail out of the mailbox. (laughs)
56:20 UNKNOWN There are a lot of conveniences to help you. (crosstalk)
56:25 . UNKNOWN Oh, definitely. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yeah, there's a lot.
UNKNOWN Well. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN We're, we're a little bit behind the (inaudible ) have been kept for seven years. (laughs)
56:31 UNKNOWN Just a little bit behind that much.
56:35 UNKNOWN But you know, we had one man who is such a beautiful example of moving and adjusting and Ross Danbury(ph), (crosstalk)
56:40 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN he was piano professor at the university, in the music department for years and years. And his wife died and we have to encourage him to come and his son teaches in Ohio and they couldn't come. And he didn't wanna go up there, so we have to make up with his mind. And I was so afraid he wouldn't be happy. Do you know he's the one who did all of these watercolors. He plays the piano every night for dinner. He loves us and he never stops a minute. And I said, if we could just, if everybody could adjust like that. (crosstalk)
57:10 UNKNOWN Yeah.
UNKNOWN He rebelled before coming in. No, he didn't want to come in. He didn't want anybody to tell him what he had to do. The minute he walked in, he said, "This is what I'm gonna do and this my life."
57:20 End of Vignette 1: Smooth Moves C. Coping With LaterLife Transitions Vignette 2: Widowhood
UNKNOWN Well, I didn't have to change much until after my husband died. I want, I want a life (inaudible ).
57:42 UNKNOWN Uh-huh. Could you say more about that?
UNKNOWN (laughs) Well, you go, you go, you, you're all among the same ones that you've always been with, but if you haven't got a husband, they don't want you to eat dinner with them and... (crosstalk).
57:55 UNKNOWN No, that's true. You immediately.(crosstalk)
UNKNOWN ...and it's not just in one section. There are people that I've tried, I was surprised that it was all over. I thought it was just down where I came from.
58:00 UNKNOWN It doesn't seem to be true here, but. (crosstalk)
58:05 UNKNOWN It isn't here. It's altogether different here. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Altogether with. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Everybody you'd like to them. (crosstalk)
58:10 UNKNOWN Oh, no there's nothing here like that. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Well, no. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN There's not many husbands here.
58:15 UNKNOWN No. No, there aren't, there aren't many but they, they'd make no difference ah, the husbands... (crosstalk)
58:20 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...and wives, they are more up to sing, were the single people then, (crosstalk)
58:25 UNKNOWN Yeah. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN then they ah, the single men in here.
UNKNOWN What you're saying in case that in, in the communities, in your normal neighborhood communities. (crosstalk)
58:30 UNKNOWN And this was a big retirement community. Two thousand homes in it. And I went to a dinner, my husband have been dead about two weeks, and I went to, I went to New York ah, New Jersey, dinner. And we had sat at this table with this people and I said, "May I sit with you?" "Oh, no. This place is taken." I said, "Well, this has always been my place." "I'm sorry but somebody else has taken it over." So I went to three of them and then I say a little toss(ph) and then I said, "I paid for my dinner; I'm not going home." So it was then somebody took me in and, but that, that was the big shot. With somebody, a friend of mine, had this what happened. (crosstalk)
59:05 UNKNOWN Terrible. Terrible experience ah, for you. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yeah, but the. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN People you thought were your friends . (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Well, I saw in other people so I expected that. As soon as I lost my husband , I expected to be other than big parties, And, and I was invited to a large cocktail party coffee, some, something like that, but never ah, with couples again. And this just the way it is.
59:30 End of Vignette 2: Widowhood C. Coping With LaterLife Transitions Vignette 3: Never Too Old
UNKNOWN Well, my mother said that and I say the same, the way to keep, one way to keep young is a constant application of youth. (crosstalk)
59:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And that's the reason I like to have students in the house and... (crosstalk)
59:55 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...to know what they're doing. I said, teach me some Computer Science. If I don't know computer, you're not in. (laughs) So, I'm trying to learn a little. The young man that just comes since January is from Mainland China. And he's so thrilled because I have been to Mainland China, climbed the Great Wall. I was there in '83, 80, yeah, '83. And my sister and I went only to climb to the top of the Great Wall of China. So, I like to talk to him. He's in computer science now. So I said, now, right now, I'll teach you English, you teach me Computer sSience.
01:00:30 End of Vignette 3: Never Too Old C. Coping With LaterLife Transitions Vignette 4: Who Is That Old Woman?
UNKNOWN Mom was, uhm, my mother was a very, uhm, she was not a professional person. She was a homemaker. But she was a very active person in her church and in her community. And I remember her, you know, working with the children in the church and putting on all the plays for Easter and Christmas and by vacation by the school and this kind of thing. But being a very active person, a very involved person with life, ah, even she lived alone ah, for a long period of time, but was still interested in, she had, she had boyfriends, ah, talked to me about this kind of thing and was very involved with life. So that when she reached 80, uhm, shortly thereafter, she, uhm, started to deteriorate, in fact, became senile. And my feelings about that, we had to, she lived in another town, we had to go and get her, bring her here. The time it was during the year that I was in sales so I couldn't keep here. My older sister was working. We did have to place her in a convalescent home for a little over a year until my sister retired. But I'll never forget taking her to that home and I was always the pragmatic person who was hardhearted handling, didn't feel that this would bother me at all. And not being able to sleep that night and feeling so very troubled about leaving her there and about not being able to, to care for her. And I remember sitting on a sofa beside her and watching the way she was and the way she acted, and being very sad, crying. Uhm, because in fact, who, who I saw sitting on that sofa was not my mother . I saw myself.
01:02:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And, and I became very afraid. Uhm, my sister did, ah, take my, my mother and she lived with her for about three years. She died last year, about a year ago. But, during that time, it was always, uhm, not just watching her change from the vital person she had been tosomeone who, ah, I remember one day we were in the bathroom and we passed a mirror and I was helping her. She looked in the mirror and she said, "Who's that?" And I said, "Oh, mama . That's me and you." She said, "No, no, no. Who's the old lady?" And I said, " Mama , that's you." And she said, "No, it's not."
01:03:40 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I think that says something about the way we feel about ourselves and how we see ourselves as we grow old.
01:03:50 End of Vignette 4: Who Is That Old Woman? C. Coping With Later Life Transitions Vignette 5: Free To Fish
UNKNOWN What do you do for recreation for fall?
01:04:05 UNKNOWN Me? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN I go fishing, there is hunting and all about it.
01:04:10 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. You're still able to drive yourself around?
01:04:15 UNKNOWN Oh, yeah. I driving in the bay.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm. Yeah. Driving in the bay, driving a truck, driving a car. And. (crosstalk)
01:04:25 UNKNOWN And you, you worked for the city before?
UNKNOWN And, and what did you do when you worked for the city?
01:04:30 UNKNOWN I was a mechanic for the city.
UNKNOWN Okay. So you still do mechanical work on your own cars?
UNKNOWN On my own cars... (crosstalk)
01:04:35 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...at home. I run my own little business.
UNKNOWN You have your own business now?
01:04:40 UNKNOWN My own business, yeah, at home.
UNKNOWN So, you repair other people's cars.
01:04:45 UNKNOWN That's right.
UNKNOWN Hey, that's great.
UNKNOWN Well, I tell you. They, ah, they furnished me a great deal, they furnished over my license. Now, we're there. I don't have to pay for my license and nothing like that.
01:04:55 UNKNOWN You mean the people who ask you to do work?
UNKNOWN No, the city furnished them.
01:05:00 UNKNOWN The city furnished your license? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yeah, yeah. They have furnished my license. They do all that for me.
01:05:05 End of Vignette 5: Free to Fish C. Coping With LaterLife Transitions Vignette 6: She Won't Fall Off!
UNKNOWN We had a pony and I tell you, we, ah, rode the pony part of the time and it, ah, ran off from me. And I, I had a terrible time staying on it. I thought I got it stopped but it was really a scary thing.
01:05:30 UNKNOWN Yeah. So he took off with you and you couldn't control...(crosstalk)
01:05:35 UNKNOWN Right.
UNKNOWN ...and he just ran and you didn't fall off, though?
UNKNOWN No, I didn't fall off. But I finally got him stopped. I don't know how. I just kept pulling on the reins, you know, trying to stop.
01:05:40 UNKNOWN Yeah. How did you feel?
UNKNOWN Oh, I felt terrible. You know, you just thought you are going to fall all the time... (crosstalk)
01:05:45 UNKNOWN Yeah.
UNKNOWN ...going that fast.
01:05:50 UNKNOWN And, and when he stopped, how was it then? Do you remember that?
UNKNOWN I don't remember what, how.
01:05:55 UNKNOWN You just remember being scared while he was running. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Yeah, right.
UNKNOWN Okay. And? (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And we ah, had walked to school of three, just a one-room schoolhouse, eight classes. And I went to that teacher, I'll, I'll let you know, eight years, same teacher. (laughs)
01:06:10 UNKNOWN (laughs) Okay. Do you have any special recollections about that?
01:06:15 UNKNOWN Well, we, when we drink water, we brought the water in a great big bucket.
01:06:20 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN We all drink on the same dipper. We dipped the water up, drink on the same dipper, we put it back in that water. Anybody want a drink? Come along and drink it again. We had a drink out in that same bucket. (laughs)
01:06:30 UNKNOWN Yeah.
UNKNOWN We had an old potbelly stove in the middle of the schoolroom. That's ah, how we heated the schoolhouse.
01:06:40 UNKNOWN Were those good days for you?
01:06:45 UNKNOWN Oh, yes. Very much.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Ah, you won't see kids doing that nowadays.
01:06:50 UNKNOWN No, no, no. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN They can't even walk up to the store nowadays. They got to get in the car or on a bicycle. (laughs)
01:06:55 UNKNOWN (laughs) That's true. You know, there's, there's some real advantages to the lives that we've had as youngsters when we had to do things.
01:07:00 UNKNOWN Right.
UNKNOWN And now, as we're older, it's easier to do. We don't feel like. (crosstalk)
01:07:05 UNKNOWN There was eight of us. There was eight of us and I'm the youngest one.
UNKNOWN You won't believe me when I tell you I went to London(ph) school for six grades.
01:07:10 UNKNOWN Why won't I believe you?
01:07:15 UNKNOWN 'Coz she's younger then.
UNKNOWN Oh, I couldn't believe that. I was thinking back on the, on the pony run away with you and being scared.
01:07:25 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Can you think of any situations like that or, or situations that you, well, let, let me put it this way. I guess I have a hunch that you don't like to be, where something else is in control and you can't do anything about it. How do you feel about flying an airplanes?
01:07:40 UNKNOWN Oh, I like to fly.
UNKNOWN Do you? Okay.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And uhm. (crosstalk)
01:07:45 UNKNOWN I think it might be something else. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Okay. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN It might be that she expected it to be one way and it turned out much different.
01:07:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And it wasn't what she expected. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Right. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN It just threw her.
01:07:55 UNKNOWN Right.
UNKNOWN And it's kind of how things are now. 'Coz when you got married, you expected, the second time, you expected things to be in certain ways?
01:08:00 UNKNOWN Yeah.
01:08:05 UNKNOWN And they're not. And it's really unsettling for then(ph).
UNKNOWN Oh, yes. I see that. That's very good. Yes. Do you see that one? (crosstalk)
01:08:10 UNKNOWN I didn't hear what you all said.
01:08:15 UNKNOWN Okay, let me say it again. It's that, when you expected the, the pony to act a certain way and it didn't and it just threw you because it's not what you expected to be like, (crosstalk)
01:08:20 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN and it was really terrifying.
01:08:25 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN So, when you got married this last time, you expected life to go a certain way. (crosstalk)
01:08:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN And all these things happened that you didn't expect at all. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And you didn't like it at all. It's real unsettling for you.
01:08:35 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. Right.
UNKNOWN It's like being on that pony. Well, the good news is, you didn't fall off.
01:08:45 UNKNOWN Right. (laughs)
UNKNOWN Right? You made it. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Ah, same things gonna happen again, I think I'm not going to give up. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Well, you better hang on, by golly. Okay. (crosstalk)
01:08:50 UNKNOWN Just hang on. Keep it hanging on.
End of Vignette 6: She Won't Fall Off! D. Issues Of Older Persons Vignette 1: Lonely
UNKNOWN So, when you come down here coming to the center is a way to meet people and to get out again?
01:09:05 UNKNOWN Yes. The reason, ah, ah, that's different. At least, here you're living and you're just, just existing. (crosstalk)
01:09:15 UNKNOWN Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Up North, there's nothing to do... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...if you're in a small town.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
01:09:20 UNKNOWN Yeah, but people care.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm. What are some things that could be done for all the persons if we just work it on with doing them different?
01:09:25 UNKNOWN There should be activities for the weekend, something for nights. And also holiday time, those are the worst. The families are so busy if they have children, and they go on here and they've taken trips. The women all work today so they can't help it. Your daughter can't help you. Your daughter-in-law's gonna help their family. (crosstalk)
01:09:50 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN So, you don't have any family after you get 65 or 70 up times. (crosstalk)
01:09:55 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN A few in, people in the South are pretty good to the old people. But up North, ah, they're very busy. And if you, if you live in a rural area, you're stuck.
01:10:05 UNKNOWN Does it leave you feeling like you're in the way?
01:10:10 UNKNOWN Yes. They haven't got time for us.
End of Vignette 1: Lonely D. Issues Of Older Persons Vignette 2: Spiritual Strength
UNKNOWN I don't wanna be personal so if this is not appropriate... (crosstalk)
01:10:25 UNKNOWN That's all right.(crosstalk)
UNKNOWN ...you tell me this but, ah, one of the things I've noticed is, ah, the handbooks on prayer and, ah, you know, artifacts of spirituality and so forth. I assume that's an important part of your life because you refer to it. Can you say something about that in terms of maybe how it supports you, encourages you, or helps you in a way? (crosstalk)
01:10:45 UNKNOWN It does support me. Ah, oh, I do live without that support, all right. This is a non-denominational place and we have a man from the Baptist Church, he comes to see three of us from that church twice a week, once every two weeks. And he came in and brought me our old medal case, it had ah, little pamphlets(ph) and, ah, I, I called my host knowing this was non-denominational, he want us to put in the lounge by or the dining room, and I thought it was wonderful but uhm, when Mike came in and he reminded me and I said, "But Mike if you look at those, there was not one word about any of them involving a church, any church, and not one was published by a church group. Ah, so he said, "Well, I just don't believe you sort, you got used to them." Then he locked up his room, I haven't got rid of them except I gave 15 out to people in the dining room that I knew were Christian people and I knew that read that objectivity, and I said, "If you see anything in any of them, which showed that has show any church, any church belief, let me know." Not one of them.
01:12:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN They, they had titles such as loneliness, depression, and of course, going through the discussion, ah, they would use Bible verses and we had a man in this, I first see recently, again I didn't get to go because, uhm, of pain but he talked to all of loneliness, that was his topic, how do we handle loneliness and then of course, he used many, many Bible verses.
01:13:05 UNKNOWN Uh-hmm. You would like to have some other people who share that belief with you to deal with some of your loneliness maybe? To deal with some of the times that you don't feel good yourself, could that be?
01:13:15 UNKNOWN Culturing(ph) other people?
01:13:20 UNKNOWN Uh-hmm. Some other people who share your, your values, who share your spirituality. Would it be nice to have some people to talk to? (crosstalk)
01:13:25 UNKNOWN Well, many of us do discuss things after that, yeah. (crosstalk)
01:13:30 UNKNOWN Uh-hmm. No, I wanna know...(crosstalk)
01:13:35 UNKNOWN Ah, not in any organized way, yeah.
UNKNOWN ...I feel that when you were starting to talk about it, you felt badly that there's, there's something that's not really satisfied, I don't know what it is. Or there's a disappointment associated with that?
01:13:45 UNKNOWN I, I wouldn't say so now that I'm aware of.
01:13:50 End of Vignette 2: Spiritual Strength D. Issues Of Older Persons Vignette 3: Powerless
UNKNOWN You feel that... (crosstalk)
01:14:00 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN as you get older you become more powerless that you don't, you can't make a difference in the government? Is that one of the things you feel?
01:14:10 UNKNOWN Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the way I feel.
UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN Yeah, yeah. That's just the way I feel because just like I said, it hurts me so bad to think about how hard I have wait in my life and ain't got nothing to live on, it waste me.
01:14:25 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN But what was I knew I would... (crosstalk)
01:14:30 UNKNOWN Uh hmm.
UNKNOWN ...I didn't sat around.
End of Vignette 3: Powerless D. Issues Of Older Persons Vignette 4: Early Recollections: Still Feeling Guilty!
UNKNOWN It looked like you were thinking a lot about what the other people were saying and that maybe you had some similar experiences that some of them had. Were there any things that they said that sounded like things that had happened to you?
01:14:55 MAGGIE Oh yes.
UNKNOWN Can you think of one?
MAGGIE Well, I, I just had three sisters too and I was the youngest one of them and that we were all real close to me. My oldest sister was more like a mother to me then I felt bad when she passed away.
01:15:10 UNKNOWN How bad.
UNKNOWN What is it that you can remember about her when you were small, something that she did one day?
01:15:15 MAGGIE Uhm, she gave me a whip in one day because my mother was sick and, and I wouldn't help her with the dishes and she whipped me that time. That's the only time.
01:15:25 UNKNOWN How did you feel when it happened?
MAGGIE Well, I felt bad.
UNKNOWN And when you say you felt bad, you felt bad because what?
01:15:30 MAGGIE Oh, because I didn't do what she said for me to do.
01:15:35 UNKNOWN Oh, okay. So, ah, it's important to you to do the things you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do them?
01:15:40 MAGGIE Yeah.
UNKNOWN And that's probably been very important throughout your life. And, and I imagine when you get in a situation, Maggie, where you haven't done what you're supposed to do, you must feel really bad about it?
01:15:55 MAGGIE Yeah.
UNKNOWN And, uhm. (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN Is it also true that when people need you, you can't turn them down?
01:16:00 MAGGIE Sure is.
End of Vignette 4: Early Recollections: Still Feeling Guilty! D. Issues Of Older Persons Vignette 5: Dating: Kids Don't Like it!
UNKNOWN I was raised, uhm, you know, I was always raised as a woman who had to keep her place, and I didn't love the things that my mother didn't like, but (laughs) there's some things still sticks, sticks in my mind even after all these years.
01:16:30 UNKNOWN What are those things that stick in your mind?
UNKNOWN Well, I'm just like you don't ask a man to dance, if he wants you to dance with him, he'll come and ask you.
01:16:35 UNKNOWN Are there any things like, what will the neighbors think?
01:16:40 UNKNOWN Yeah.
UNKNOWN And what... (crosstalk)
UNKNOWN And what will my kids think. It's my main thing right now. (laughs)
01:16:45 UNKNOWN Hmm. What will they think?
01:16:50 UNKNOWN I don't know, I, that couple of dates that I did have, uhm,