HiST 201 Essay 2: What was History to the First Historians? Comparing Herodotus and Thucydides
fall003
HIST201class9.pdf
Today’s Topics (11/5)
The Outbreak of the Peloponnesian War
Discussion: Funeral Oration, Plague, and Pericles
From the Plague to the Peace of Nicias
Athenian Vandal
Herodotus on Salamis and back to Cyrus
Discussion: Herodotus and Thucydides
Essay 2 review: Where’s the evidence?
For Next Class (11/12):
READ: Selection from The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Rome Selection from Polybius The Histories books 1 and 3
Essay 2 due 11/14 by 5:00pm
Example of how to break up next week’s reading:
Tuesday 11/6 Vote!
Wednesday 11/7 Read Selection from Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Rome; Polybius The Histories 1.1-6, 3.1-9 (17 pages, 35-40 minutes)
Note: If you want us to read and comment on a draft of your essay, email it to us by 7:00pm on 11/7!
Thursday 11/8 Read Polybius The Histories 3.47-49, 78-87, 106-118 (23 pages, 40-50 minutes)
Monday 11/12 Review your reading guide before class so you’re ready for discussion (15 minutes)
Wednesday 11/14 Essay 2 due by 5:00pm!
6 0
0 B
C E
4 5
0 B
C E
5 0
0 B
C E
5 5
0 B
C E
4 0
0 B
C E
C L A S S I C A L P E R I O D c. 480 - 323 BCE
Persian Wars 490-479 BCE
(Spartan 300, etc.)
Parthenon built 447 - 431 BCE
Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta
431-404 BCE
Advent of Athenian democracy
507 BCE
Cyrus the Great King of Persian Empire
c. 559-531 BCE
Herodotus writes between c. 460 – 425 BCE
Thucydides writes c. 410-400 BCE
(or perhaps starting c. 431BCE) Croesus king of Lydia
c. 560-546 BCE
Cambyses King of Persian Emp.
c. 531-522 BCE
Darius I King of Persian Empire
c. 521-486 BCE
Xerxes I King of Persian Empire
c.485-465 BCE
Artaxerxes I King of Persian Empire
c. 464-424 BCE
Darius II King of Persian Empire
c. 423-405 BCE
L A T E A R C H A I C P E R I O D c. 600 - 480 BCE
Nabonidus king of Babylon c. 555-539 BCE
Unit 2: What was History to the First Historians? Timeline
Ionian revolt c. 499-494 BCE
Battle of Marathon 490 BCE
Battle of Salamis 480 BCE
Plague in Athens
430-429 BCE
Thucydides exiled from Athens
424/423 BCE
Peace of Nicias 422-416 BCE
Pericles’ funeral oration 431 BCE
Pisistratus tyrant of Athens
546-527 BCE
Hippias tyrant of Athens
527-510 BCE
Turmoil after death of Cambyses 522-521 BCE
Delian league founded 477 BCE
Themistokles Ostracized
474 BCE
Athens attacks Naxos
468 BCE
Kimon ostracized 461 BCE
Peace With Persians
c. 450 BCE
Delian league treasury moved to
Athens 454 BCE
Sicilian campaign 415-413 BCE
Athens loses Peloponnesian War
404 BCE
Athenians take Melos,
massacre citizens 416/415 BCE
Pericles dies 428/427 BCE
Gordion attacked between c. 550-
540 BCE
Sardis destroyed by Cyrus, 546 BCE
The Peloponnesian War: Long , Confusing, and Destructive
Sparta
Athens
Thucydides’ approach to recording speeches:
...I have found it difficult to remember the precise words used in the speeches which I listened to myself and my various informants (i.e., sources) have experienced the same difficulty; so my method has been, while keeping as closely as possible to the general sense of the words that were actually used, to make the speakers say, what, in my opinion, was called for in each situation.
Thucydides 1.22 (translation by Warner 1972)
The Peloponnesian War: Long , Confusing, and Destructive
Sparta
Athens
Athens
Plataea
Salamis
Thebes
In 431 BCE 300 Thebans infiltrated Plataea and were killed or captured There was confusion about the status of the Theban prisoners in Plataea
Early in the War Sparta would invade Athens every year and destroy the Athenians’ crops and the Athenians would use their fleet to raid the Peloponnese
Think too, about the great part that is played by the unpredictable in war…The longer a war lasts, the more things tend to depend on accidents.
Thucydides 1.78 (translation by Warner 1972)
The Mound of the Athenians at Marathon in Attica, c. 490-480 BCE
Excavations of a portion of the Demosion Sema (public cemetery for war dead), Athens
According to Thucydides’ account of Pericles’ funeral oration, what was Pericles’ opinion of the Athenian Democracy?
According to Thucydides’ account of Pericles’ funeral oration, what sort of people are the Athenians and how do they behave? Try to be as specific as you can.
Think about this passage:
Most people, in fact, will not take trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear.
Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 1.22 (Translated by Warner 1972)
If we were to judge from this passage, what would Thucydides think about how decisions are made by the Athenian democracy?
Pericles, from the Alcmeonid family (Cleisthenes’ family), elected general in Athens every year from 461-429 BCE
Review how the Athenians behaved during the plague of 430/429 BCE, according to Thucydides’ account. Be as specific as you can.
Then discuss whether or not they sound like the same sort of people that Thucydides has Pericles describe in his funeral oration.
Pericles, from the Alcmeonid family (Cleisthenes’ family), elected general in Athens every year from 461-429 BCE
Thucydides’ on Athenian reactions to misfortune in 430 BCE:
Now they began to blame Pericles for having persuaded them to go to war and to hold him responsible for all the misfortunes that had overtaken them…They were then in such a state of utter hopelessness, and all their angry feelings turned against Pericles.
Thucydides 2.59 (translation by Warner 1972)
Thucydides’ on Athenian reactions to misfortune in 430 BCE:
Now they began to blame Pericles for having persuaded them to go to war and to hold him responsible for all the misfortunes that had overtaken them…They were then in such a state of utter hopelessness, and all their angry feelings turned against Pericles.
Thucydides 2.59 (translation by Warner 1972)
Pericles’ reaction to their reaction, according to Thucydides:
I am the same as I was…it is you who have changed. You took my advice when you were still untouched by misfortune, and regretted your action when things went badly with you; it is because your own resolution is weak that my policy appears to you to be mistaken.
Thucydides 2.61 (translation after Warner 1972)
Discuss what Thucydides’ thinks of the Athenian Democracy and Pericles’ role in it, according to this passage:
…Pericles, because of his position, his intelligence, and his known integrity, could respect the liberty of the people and at the same time hold them in check. It was he who led them, rather than they who led him, and, since he never sought power from any wrong motive, he was under no necessity of flattering them: in fact he was so highly respected that he was able to speak angrily and contradict them. Certainly when he saw that they were going too far in a mood of over-confidence, he would bring back to them a sense of their dangers; and when they were discouraged for no good reason he would restore their confidence. So, in what was nominally a democracy, power was really in the hands of the first citizen.
Thucydides 2.65 (Translation by Warner 1972)
Thucydides’ reason for describing the plague:
I myself shall merely describe what it was like, and set down the symptoms, knowledge of which will enable it to be recognized, if it should ever break out again.
Thucydides 2.48 (translated by Warner 1972)
Thucydides’ reason for describing the plague:
I myself shall merely describe what it was like, and set down the symptoms, knowledge of which will enable it to be recognized, if it should ever break out again.
Thucydides 2.48 (translated by Warner 1972)
Discuss whether or not this is consistent with his general aim in writing history:
It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.
Thucydides 1.22 (translated by Warner 1972)
Think too, about the great part that is played by the unpredictable in war…The longer a war lasts, the more things tend to depend on accidents.
Thucydides 1.78 (translation by Warner 1972)
Athens
Sparta
Amphipolis
Thasos
Thucydides was in command of a small fleet at Thasos when the Spartans attacked Amphipolis in 424 BCE
Eion
Athens
Sparta
Amphipolis
Thasos
Thucydides was in command of a small fleet at Thasos when the Spartans attacked Amphipolis in 424 BCE; the Athenians exiled him for not arriving in time to save the city
Eion
Athens
Sparta
Argos
The Athenian general Nicias and Spartan king Pleistoanax negotiated a peace treaty in 421 BCE It was supposed to last for 50 years
Amphipolis
Alcibiades, raised in Pericles’ household, lived c. 451-404 BCE Elected general in Athens every year from (at least) 420 – 415 BCE
Athens
Sparta
Argos
In 420 BCE Alcibiades convinced the Athenians to make an alliance with Argos and fight the Spartans; in 418 BCE they were defeated by the Spartans at Mantinea
AthensSICILY
AEGEAN SEA
GREECE
ITALY
Syracuse Sparta
Egesta
In 415 BCE the citizens of Egesta on Sicily asked the Athenians for assistance in a local war
Thucydides’ summary of the Athenian decision to invade Sicily:
The Athenians resolved to sail again against Sicily...They were for the most part ignorant of the size of the island and of the numbers of its inhabitants, both Hellenic (Greek) and native, and they did not realize that they were taking on a war of almost the same magnitude as their war against the Peloponnesians.
Thucydides 6.1 (Translated by Warner 1972)
Is Thucydides’ description here of Athenian decision-making consistent with his view of “most people’s” intelligence and other passages where he describes the Athenian democracy?
AthensSICILY
AEGEAN SEA
GREECE
ITALY
Syracuse Sparta
Egesta
Nicias (the same one who brokered the peace of Nicias) opposed the plan to invade Sicily
Alcibiades was appointed co-commander of the Sicilian campaign along with Nicias and Lamachus in 415 BCE
Someone mutilated the Herms of Athens in 415 BCE just before the Sicilian expedition
A Herm
Someone mutilated the Herms of Athens in 415 BCE just before the Sicilian expedition There were rumors that Alcibiades was involved
A Herm
AthensSICILY
AEGEAN SEA
GREECE
ITALY
Syracuse Sparta
Egesta
Despite the suspicions Alcibiades was a co-commander of the Sicilian campaign, along with Nicias and Lamachus, but…
…when the Athenians summoned him back to stand trial, Alcibiades fled to Sparta
Think too, about the great part that is played by the unpredictable in war…The longer a war lasts, the more things tend to depend on accidents.
Thucydides 1.78 (translation by Warner 1972)
The Athenians under the command of Nicias laid siege to Syracuse on Sicily from 415-413 BCE
Review the end of the Athenian expedition to Sicily, especially how the retreating Athenians behaved when they reach the river Assinarus, according to Thucydides.
Compare this with Thucydides’ account of Athenian behavior during the plague of 430/429 BCE and discuss how Thucydides thinks most Athenians handle crises.
AthensSICILY
AEGEAN SEA
GREECE
ITALY
Syracuse Sparta
Egesta
The Sicilian expedition ended in disaster in 413 BCE
Review the portions we read in books 6 and 7 of Thucydides’ account of
the Athenian general Nicias’ involvement in the Sicilian invasion.
Then discuss how well Nicias fits with the typical Greek tragic plot arc:
A “Tragic hero” who is doing well and proud of something they have achieved, something they own, their family, etc.
The Tragic hero makes plans relating to whatever it is they are proud of
The Tragic hero is often warned that their plan will go badly
The Tragic hero remains confident and doesn’t notice or dismisses the warnings
The Tragic hero often realizes their mistake, but it’s too late, something horrible happens to them (or has already happened), usually involving their death or death/loss of whatever it is they are proud of. The gods are usually involved in their undoing.
In 412/411 BCE, the Persians agreed to supply the Spartans with ships and in return the Spartans let the Persians retake western Anatolia
Athens
Sparta
In the final years of the war, the Athenians tried desperately to keep their route to the Black Sea open
Athens
Sparta
Athens
Sparta
Athens fell in 404 BCE
6 0
0 B
C E
4 5
0 B
C E
5 0
0 B
C E
5 5
0 B
C E
4 0
0 B
C E
C L A S S I C A L P E R I O D c. 480 - 323 BCE
Persian Wars 490-479 BCE
(Spartan 300, etc.)
Parthenon built 447 - 431 BCE
Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta
431-404 BCE
Advent of Athenian democracy
507 BCE
Cyrus the Great King of Persian Empire
c. 559-531 BCE
Herodotus writes between c. 460 – 425 BCE
Thucydides writes c. 410-400 BCE
(or perhaps starting c. 431BCE) Croesus king of Lydia
c. 560-546 BCE
Cambyses King of Persian Emp.
c. 531-522 BCE
Darius I King of Persian Empire
c. 521-486 BCE
Xerxes I King of Persian Empire
c.485-465 BCE
Artaxerxes I King of Persian Empire
c. 464-424 BCE
Darius II King of Persian Empire
c. 423-405 BCE
L A T E A R C H A I C P E R I O D c. 600 - 480 BCE
Nabonidus king of Babylon c. 555-539 BCE
Unit 2: What was History to the First Historians? Timeline
Ionian revolt c. 499-494 BCE
Battle of Marathon 490 BCE
Battle of Salamis 480 BCE
Plague in Athens
430-429 BCE
Thucydides exiled from Athens
424/423 BCE
Peace of Nicias 422-416 BCE
Pericles’ funeral oration 431 BCE
Pisistratus tyrant of Athens
546-527 BCE
Hippias tyrant of Athens
527-510 BCE
Turmoil after death of Cambyses 522-521 BCE
Delian league founded 477 BCE
Themistokles Ostracized
474 BCE
Athens attacks Naxos
468 BCE
Kimon ostracized 461 BCE
Peace With Persians
c. 450 BCE
Delian league treasury moved to
Athens 454 BCE
Sicilian campaign 415-413 BCE
Athens loses Peloponnesian War
404 BCE
Athenians take Melos,
massacre citizens 416/415 BCE
Pericles dies 428/427 BCE
Gordion attacked between c. 550-
540 BCE
Sardis destroyed by Cyrus, 546 BCE
The Greeks defeated the Persians at sea at the battle of Salamis in 480 BCE
Athens
Plataea
Salamis
Aegina
According to Herodotus’ account the battle started:
When an Athenian named Ameinias rammed an enemy ship (according to the Athenians)
When a ship carrying statues of the legendary kings of Aegina called the Aeacidae (according to the Aeginetans)
When a phantom woman shouted: “Are you crazy? How far do you think you can retreat.” (“it is also said”)
Athens
Plataea
Salamis
Aegina
Sardis, Turkey, capital of king Croesus of Lydia
Fortifications, 7th- 6th century BCE
Gate
Wall
Herodotus was really interested in the story about what happened to Epizelus at Marathon
The Plain of Marathon in Attica
Review Herodotus account of the downfall of king Candaules and rise of Gyges as king of Lydia in book 1.7-13.
Compare that episode with Herodotus’ account of Xerxes and Masistes in book 9.108-113.
Can you think of any stories like these from Thucydides’ work?
Cyrus’ response to Artembares’ advice to move to a richer land, according to Herodotus:
Cyrus listened to this proposal, but was not impressed. Nevertheless, he told them to go ahead and do it – but if they did, he warned, they should be prepared to be ruled rather than rule, because soft countries usually produce soft men, and the same soil does not yield rich crops and great fighting men too. Thus did Cyrus refute the argument and the Persians withdrew from his presence acknowledging their error, and choosing to be masters over their own barren land rather than slaves toiling for others in wide, fertile fields.
Herodotus 9.122 (translation after Blanco 2013)
Sandanis’ advice to Croesus about fighting Cyrus and the Persians, according to Herodotus:
Your Majesty, you are getting ready to make war on the sort of men who wear cowhide pants and cowhide everything else. They don’t eat what they want but only what they have, and they live in very rugged country. They don’t drink wine, but water instead. They don’t even have figs to snack on, or any good thing of any kind. Now, if you win, what will you take away from them – they who have nothing? On the other hand, if you are defeated, think of the good things you will be throwing away.
Herodotus 1.71 (translation after Blanco 2013)
Amphora (wine jar), made in Athens showing king Croesus of Lydia on the pyre,
c. 480-450 BCE
Herodotus on how historical change tends to happen:
Many that were great in the past have become small, and many that used to be small have become great in my lifetime, so I will mention both alike because I know very well that human prosperity never remains in the same place.
Herodotus, Histories 1.5 (translated by Blanco 2013)
Question from the second essay assignment:
Assess how reliable or accurate Herodotus’ Histories are. Be sure to support your answer with relevant examples from passages of Herodotus that we have read and other sources of evidence that either corroborate or contradict what he writes in his Histories. Also be sure to consider whether or not he omits anything important.
Sardis Athens
GREECE
Babylon
PERSIA (aka ANSHAN)
MEDITERRANEAN SEA
AEGEAN SEA
According to Herdotous, Cyrus overthrew Astyages of Media sometime around 550 BCE, shortly before Cyrus overthrew Croesus of Lydia in 547 - 546 BCE
BLACK SEA
EGYPT
The Babylonian Chronicle of Nabonidus, entry for year 6 of Nabonidus (550-549 BCE) records that:
Ishtumegu (Astyages) called up his army and marched against Cyrus, king of Anshan (Persia), in order to meet him in battle. The army of Ishtumegu (Astyages) revolted against him and in fetters they delivered him to Cyrus.
Translation by Pritchett 1969
The Babylonian chronicle of Nabonidus, entry for year 9 of Nabonidus (547-546 BCE) records that:
…Cyrus, king of Persia, called up his army and crossed the Tigris below the town of Arbela…he marched against the land of (text is broken) and killed its king, took his possessions, put a garrison of his own there.
Translation by Pritchett 1969
Sword of a Lydian soldier Helmet of a Lydian soldier
Burned and collapsed houses
Collapsed fortifications with skeletons underneath
The Persian destruction level at the Lydian capital of Sardis, Turkey, mid 6th century BCE (probably 547 – 546 BCE)
Who attacked the Küçük Höyük fortress at Gordion in the mid 6th century BCE?
Question from the second essay assignment:
Assess how reliable or accurate Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War is. Be sure to support your answer with relevant examples from Thucydides that we have read, and pay particular attention to his comments on his own methods and his criticisms of other historians. Also be sure to consider whether or not he omits anything important.
Thucydides on the “prose chroniclers” (i.e., other historians):
[Thucydides’ evidence] is better evidence than…the prose chroniclers, who are less interested in telling the truth than in catching the attention of their public, whose authorities (sources) cannot be checked, and whose subject matter, owing to the passage of time, is mostly lost in the unreliable streams of mythology.
Thucydides 1.21 (translation by Warner 1972)
Discuss what Thucydides would think of the work of Herodotus and why. Try to figure out what specific features he would like or dislike.
How common are speeches in Thucydides’ work? Discuss the implications of this in light of the quote above.
Thucydides’ approach to recording speeches:
...I have found it difficult to remember the precise words used in the speeches which I listened to myself and my various informants (i.e., sources) have experienced the same difficulty; so my method has been, while keeping as closely as possible to the general sense of the words that were actually used, to make the speakers say, what, in my opinion, was called for in each situation.
Thucydides 1.22 (translation by Warner 1972)
Compare how Herodotus and Thucydides describe warfare. For instance, does war come across as more glorious in one author’s work than it does in the other’s?
Where is there relevant evidence for these questions? (e.g., in what passages, where in class notes, etc.)
What were Herodotus’ aims in writing his Histories? Discuss whether or not he tends to stick to these stated aims. Please use examples from the passages we have read to support your answer.
What were Thucydides’ aims in writing his History of the Peloponnesian War? Discuss whether or not he tends to stick to these stated aims. Please use examples from the passages we have read to support your answer.
Where is there relevant evidence for this question? (e.g., in what passages, where in class notes, etc.)
Compare what Herodotus and Thucydides emphasize as important factors in historical change. Then compare the pattern historical change tends to take in each historian’s work. Be sure to support your answer with relevant examples from the work of each historian.
Where is there relevant evidence for this question? (e.g., in what passages, where in class notes, etc.)
Assess how reliable or accurate Herodotus’ Histories are. Be sure to support your answer with relevant examples from passages of Herodotus that we have read and other sources of evidence that either corroborate or contradict what he writes in his Histories. Also be sure to consider whether or not he omits anything important.
Where is there relevant evidence for this question? (e.g., in what passages, where in class notes, etc.)
Assess how reliable or accurate Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War is. Be sure to support your answer with relevant examples from Thucydides that we have read, and pay particular attention to his comments on his own methods and his criticisms of other historians. Also be sure to consider whether or not he omits anything important.
Where is there relevant evidence for this question? (e.g., in what passages, where in class notes, etc.)
Compare Herodotus’ and Thucydides’ views of the Athenian democracy. Refer to specific examples from Herodotus’ Histories and Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War to support your answer.
Example of how to break up next week’s reading:
Tuesday 11/6 Vote!
Wednesday 11/7 Read Selection from Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Rome; Polybius The Histories 1.1-5, 3.1-9 (17 pages, 35-40 minutes)
Thursday 11/8 Read Polybius The Histories 3.47-49, 78-87, 106-118 (23 pages, 40-50 minutes)
Monday 11/12 Review your reading guide before class so you’re ready for discussion (15 minutes)
For Next Class (11/12):
READ: Selection from The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Rome
Selection from Polybius, The Histories books 1 and 3
Essay 2 due by 5:00pm on Wednesday 11/14!
VOTE!
