HiST 201 Essay 2: What was History to the First Historians? Comparing Herodotus and Thucydides

Today’s Topics (10/29)

Essay feedback

The Delian League and Athenian Imperialism

Pericles and the Parthenon

Discussion: Thucydides’ aims and historical change

Discussion: Thucydides and Athenian Democracy

Discussion: Thucydides and other historians

The Beginning of the Peloponnesian War

For Next Class (11/5):

READ: Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 2.34-65, 6.8-15, 7.84-87

Herodotus Histories 8.77-103, 9.107-122

Example of how to break up next week’s reading:

Tuesday 10/30 Read Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 2.34-55 (14 pages, 30 – 40 minutes)

Thursday 11/1 Read Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 2.56-65, 6.8-15, 7.84-87 (19 pages, 40 – 55 minutes)

Friday 11/2 Read Herodotus’ Histories 8.77-103, 9.107-122 (12 pages, 25 – 30 minutes)

Monday 11/5 Review your reading guide before class so you’re ready for discussion (15 minutes)

Thucydides, an Athenian, lived c. 460-400 BCE (not an ancient depiction)

Likely question on the second essay:

Compare Herodotus’ and Thucydides’ attitudes or opinions about the Athenian democracy. Use specific examples from Herodotus’ Histories and Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War to support your answer.

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C L A S S I C A L P E R I O D c. 480 - 323 BCE

Persian Wars 490-479 BCE

(Spartan 300, etc.)

Parthenon built 447 - 431 BCE

Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta

431-404 BCE

Advent of Athenian democracy

507 BCE

Cyrus the Great King of Persian Empire

c. 559-531 BCE

Herodotus writes between c. 460 – 425 BCE

Thucydides writes c. 410-400 BCE

Croesus king of Lydia c. 560-546 BCE

Cambyses King of Persian Emp.

c. 531-522 BCE

Darius I King of Persian Empire

c. 521-486 BCE

Xerxes I King of Persian Empire

c.485-465 BCE

Artaxerxes I King of Persian Empire

c. 464-424 BCE

Darius II King of Persian Empire

c. 423-405 BCE

L A T E A R C H A I C P E R I O D c. 600 - 480 BCE

Nabonidus king of Babylon c. 555-539 BCE

Unit 2: What was History to the First Historians? Timeline

Ionian revolt c. 499-494 BCE

Battle of Marathon 490 BCE

Battle of Salamis 480 BCE

Plague in Athens

430-429 BCE

Thucydides exiled from Athens

424/423 BCE

Peace of Nicias 422-416 BCE

Pericles’ funeral oration 431 BCE

Pisistratus tyrant of Athens

546-527 BCE

Hippias tyrant of Athens

527-510 BCE

Turmoil after death of Cambyses 522-521 BCE

Delian league founded 477 BCE

Themistokles Ostracized

474 BCE

Athens attacks Naxos

468 BCE

The Greeks defeated the Persians at sea at the battle of Salamis in 480 BCE, the Athenian general Themistocles was in command

Athens

Plataea

Salamis

Thucydides’ thoughts on Themistocles, who led the fleet at Salamis:

To sum him up in a few words, it may be said that through force of genius and by rapidity of action this man was supreme at doing precisely the right thing at precisely the right moment.

Thucydides 1.138 (Translation by Warner 1972)

In the 470s the Athenians voted to ostracize (exile) Themistocles, who led the fleet at Salamis

Themistocles ostrakon from the 470s BCE

Athens

Sparta

Argos

Corcyra

Magnesia

After his ostracism from Athens Themistocles moved to Argos, and a manhunt ensued until he appealed to the Persian king Artaxerxes in 465 BCE

Thucydides’ thoughts on Themistocles, who led the fleet at Salamis and was ostracized (exiled) by the Athenians in the 470s BCE:

To sum him up in a few words, it may be said that through force of genius and by rapidity of action this man was supreme at doing precisely the right thing at precisely the right moment.

Thucydides 1.138 (Translation by Warner 1972)

Themistocles ostrakon from the 470s BCE

In 479 BCE a coalition of Greek City states defeated the Persian army at Plataea and the Persians left Greece

Athens

Plataea

Salamis

Thebes

Athens

Sparta Delos

The Delian League was formed after the Persian Wars to expel the Persians from the Aegean

Athens

Sparta Delos

The Athenian general Kimon, son of Miltiades, led the Delian League to a string of victories between 476 – 462 BCE

Naxos

Athens

Sparta Delos

In 468, when the island of Naxos wanted to stop contributing to the league, the Athenians attacked them

Naxos

Athens

Sparta Delos

The Athenian general Kimon, son of Miltiades, led the Delian League to a string of victories between 476 – 462 BCE

Naxos

Kimon ostrakon from 461 BCE

The Athenians voted to ostracize Kimon in 461 BCE

Kimon ostrakon from 461 BCEThemistocles ostrakon from the 470s BCE

Pericles, from the Alcmeonid family (Cleisthenes’ family), elected general in Athens every year from 461-429 BCE

In the 450s the Athenians led the Delian League in campaigns further afield

In 454 BCE, they lost an army and fleet fighting the Persians in Egypt and moved the Delian League treasury to the Athenian acropolis

Peace was made with the Persians around 450 BCE

Athens

Sparta Delos

The Delian League was formed after the Persian Wars to expel the Persians from the Aegean

By 450 BCE the Delian League (shown in dark purple) was an Athenian Empire

By 450 BCE the Delian League (shown in dark purple) was an Athenian Empire

Athenians decided what the league would do without input of allied cities and compelled cities to remain in the alliance by force.

All settlements in Attica were within 35 miles from Athens and most settlements were within 15 miles… meaning it would be possible to travel to Athens from anywhere in Attica in one day or less

It would be impractical for citizens of Delian League cities to participate in the democratic government in Athens

The Greeks who fought at Plataea in 479 BCE swore to…

Stay friends with each other

Stay enemies with the Persians and any Greeks who helped them

Leave the sanctuaries destroyed by the Persians in ruins as a reminder of Persian “barbarity”

The Greeks who fought at Plataea in 479 BCE swore to…

Stay friends with each other (violated by Athens by 468 BCE)

Stay enemies with the Persians and any Greeks who helped them

Leave the sanctuaries destroyed by the Persians in ruins as a reminder of Persian “barbarity”

The Greeks who fought at Plataea in 479 BCE swore to…

Stay friends with each other (violated by Athens by 468 BCE)

Stay enemies with the Persians and any Greeks who helped them (violated by Athens in 450 BCE)

Leave the sanctuaries destroyed by the Persians in ruins as a reminder of Persian “barbarity”

The Periclean Building Program in Athens, c. 447-404 BCE

The Greeks who fought at Plataea swore to…

Stay friends with each other

Stay enemies with the Persians and any Greeks who helped them

Leave the sanctuaries destroyed by the Persians in ruins as a reminder of Persian “barbarity” (violated by Athens in 447 BCE)

The Parthenon, Built c. 447-432 BCE

The Parthenon had 92 sculpted panels called metopes, many more than most Greek temples

Metope

Parthenon metopes (panels), the battle of the Greeks (Lapiths) and centaurs

The Parthenon frieze

Horsemen on the Parthenon frieze (192 total)

Marshal and maidensHorsemen (192 total)

Elders Sacrificial animals

The Parthenon frieze depicts a big religious procession

Parthenon Frieze, East side: Folding peplos (robe) of Athena,

The main event of the Panathenaic procession

(the annual procession of all Athenians)

Parthenon frieze, East side: The gods watch the Panathenaic procession (annual procession of all Athenians)

Are the messages sent by the decoration of the Parthenon consistent with those of the Marathon mound?

Athens

Sparta

Delos

What might someone from a Delian League city state like Naxos think when they saw the Parthenon in Athens?

Naxos

What would Thucydides’ think of the decision to use Delian league funds to build the Parthenon?

Did Thucydides see the Parthenon as a sign of Athens’ true power?

This is Sparta.

Athens

Likely questions on the second essay:

What were Herodotus’ aims in writing his Histories? How well does he stay on topic with these stated aims? Please use examples from the passages we have read to support your answer.

What were Thucydides’ aims in writing his History of the Peloponnesian War? How well does he stay on topic with these stated aims? Please use examples from the passages we have read to support your answer.

Thucydides’ aims, in writing history in general:

It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.

Thucydides 1.22 (translated by Warner 1972)

Explain to each other what he’s saying here.

Thucydides’ aims, in writing history in general:

It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.

Thucydides 1.22 (translated by Warner 1972)

Thucydides’ aims, in writing history in general:

It will be enough for me, however, if these words of mine are judged useful by those who want to understand clearly the events which happened in the past and which (human nature being what it is) will, at some time or other and in much the same ways, be repeated in the future.

Thucydides 1.22 (translated by Warner 1972)

Thucydides’ aims, in writing about this topic in particular:

Thucydides the Athenian wrote the history of the war fought between Athens and Sparta, beginning the account at the very outbreak of the war, in the belief that it was going to be a great (i.e., major) war and more worth writing about than any of those which had taken place in the past.

Thucydides 1.1 (translated by Warner 1972)

The greatest war in the past was the Persian War; yet in this war the decision was reached quickly as a result of two naval battles and two battles on land. The Peloponnesian War, on the other hand, not only lasted for a long time, but throughout its course brought with it unprecedented suffering for Hellas.

Thucydides 1.23 (translated by Warner 1972)

Discuss these statements and decide if they are consistent with each other.

Discuss what Thucydides thinks are key factors in determining relations between different states and the outcome of wars.

Athens

Sparta Delos

The Delian League was formed after the Persian Wars to expel the Persians from the Aegean

Herodotus on how historical change tends to happen:

Many that were great in the past have become small, and many that used to be small have become great in my lifetime, so I will mention both alike because I know very well that human prosperity never remains in the same place.

Herodotus, Histories 1.5 (translated by Blanco 2013)

Attic vase showing king Croesus on the pyre, c. 480-450 BCE

The Greeks defeated the Persians at sea at the battle of Salamis in 480 BCE, the Athenian general Themistocles was in command

Athens

Plataea

Salamis

Themistokles interpreted the “walls of wood” referred to by the Oracle at Delphi as referring to the Athenian fleet

Athens

Plataea

Salamis

Discuss what Thucydides thinks are key factors in determining relations between different states and the outcome of wars.

Then talk about how this compares to Herodotus.

Think about this passage:

Most people, in fact, will not take trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear.

Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 1.22 (Translated by Warner 1972)

If we were to judge from this passage, what would Thucydides think about how decisions are made by the Athenian democracy?

Harmodius and Aristogeiton as “tyrant slayers” Roman copy of an Attic original, c. 479-470 BCE

In Athens, citizens were chosen by lot (i.e., at random) to be legislators

Kimon ostrakon from 461 BCEThemistocles ostrakon from the 470s BCE

In Athens, the whole assembly of citizens voted on legislation, elected generals and voted to ostracize (exile) citizens deemed too dangerously influential

In Athens, citizens were chosen by lot (i.e., at random) to be legislators

[Thucydides’ evidence] is better evidence than…the prose chroniclers, who are less interested in telling the truth than in catching the attention of their public, whose authorities (sources) cannot be checked, and whose subject matter, owing to the passage of time, is mostly lost in the unreliable streams of mythology.

Thucydides 1.21 (translation by Warner 1972)

[Thucydides’ evidence] is better evidence than…the prose chroniclers, who are less interested in telling the truth than in catching the attention of their public, whose authorities (sources) cannot be checked, and whose subject matter, owing to the passage of time, is mostly lost in the unreliable streams of mythology.

Thucydides 1.21 (translation by Warner 1972)

Discuss what Thucydides would think of the work of Herodotus and why. Try to figure out what specific features he would like or dislike.

Thucydides’ approach to recording speeches:

...I have found it difficult to remember the precise words used in the speeches which I listened to myself and my various informants (i.e., sources) have experienced the same difficulty; so my method has been, while keeping as closely as possible to the general sense of the words that were actually used, to make the speakers say, what, in my opinion, was called for in each situation.

Thucydides 1.22 (translation by Warner 1972)

Discuss the implications of this approach for his reliability as a historian.

The terms “Hellas” and “Hellenes” do not occur in the Iliad or Odyssey

This is Sparta.

Athens

For Next Class (11/5):

READ: Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War 2.34-65, 6.8-15, 7.84-87

Herodotus Histories 8.77-103, 9.107-122

Question 3 from Essay 1:

Why do scholars think the Trojan War would have been most likely to occur between 1350 and 1150 BCE? In other words, what archaeological and/or textual evidence suggests that this span of time could be the right general setting for such a war?

Troy VI (6), inhabited c. 1750-1250 BCE; destroyed by earthquake c. 1250 BCE

Fortifications uncovered by excavations in the 1930s

Possible earthquake damage

Troy VIIa (7a) destruction level Street filled with toppled wall stones and ashy debris

Troy VIIa (7a), c. 1250 -1180 BCE; Destroyed violently (e.g., burning, sling stones and arrowheads, unburied human remains) around 1180 BCE

AREA DUG AWAY BY SCHLIEMANN

(without making a plan)

Reconstruction of grave circles A and B at Mycenae (used from c. 1650 – 1450 BCE), as they appeared, c. 1500-1450 BCE

A

B

Daggers with inlaid decoration

Swords and pommels from grave circle A

Some of the many swords and daggers from grave circle A at Mycenae, c. 1550 – 1450 BCE

Mycenae: Fortifications expanded to include Grave Circle A and lion gate constructed, c. 1250-1200 BCE (two centuries or more after the last burials in grave circle A)

Plan of acropolis Mycenae

Plan of acropolis Mycenae

Plan of remains of palace at Mycenae, c. 14th -13th centuries BCE

Palace at Pylos, Greece, c. 1300-1200 BCE Megaron

Megaron during excavation

Palaces, writing, monumental art and architecture, and fancy luxury goods all stopped appearing in Greece around 1150 BCE