Psychotherapy With group

00:05 VICTOR YALOM: Hello, I'm Victor Yalom.00:06 I'm pleased to be here today with Dr. Irvin Yalom. 00:09 He's made outstanding contributions to the field of 00:12 group and existential psychotherapy. 00:14 He's also written many books, both fiction and nonfiction, 00:18 all revolving around psychotherapy themes. 00:21 He's also my father. 00:23 Good to be here. 00:25 IRVIN YALOM: Good to be here for me, too. 00:26 VICTOR YALOM: In a few minutes, we're about to see 00:28 two demonstration groups that were filmed at the American 00:31 Group Psychotherapy Association annual conference 00:33 here in San Francisco. 00:36 Prior to the groups, in your opening remarks, you set the 00:38 stage for them, so we don't need to do that here, but 00:41 suffice it to say that the groups are inspired by your 00:44 novel, The Schopenhauer Cure, which is really 00:47 set in group therapy. 00:49 And the groups are led by Molyn Leszcz, who is your 00:52 co-author of the fifth edition of your text, The Theory and 00:55 Practice of Group Psychotherapy. 00:57 Now, that's a big book, over 600 pages, so we can't do 01:01 justice to it here. 01:02 But I think it would be helpful if you could summarize 01:05 the core principles of your model of group psychotherapy. 01:09 IRVIN YALOM: Basically, I want to make the point--and I do in 01:12 there--that we're really talking about group therapies. 01:16 There are a tremendous number of different types of group 01:19 therapies--more, it seems, every year--and we do talk 01:22 about that in the text. 01:24 But, this type of group that we're going to be looking at 01:26 today, I feel, is the central model of group therapy. 01:32 And we can change it in many different ways to fit 01:34 different clinical situations, different clinical 01:37 populations, but primarily, it's an interpersonal group. 01:42 This is a group where we're making the assumption--and 01:45 it's an assumption I believe very much--that people come to 01:48 see us, for the most part, because they can't establish 01:52 and maintain nurturing, ongoing interpersonal 01:57 relationships. 01:58 VICTOR YALOM: Right. 01:58 And when you say people come to see "us," you're meaning 02:01 any therapist; not a group therapist, 02:03 an individual therapist. 02:04 IRVIN YALOM: Exactly. 02:04 Any therapist. 02:06 VICTOR YALOM: Even if they're depressed or anxious, it often 02:08 revolves around interpersonal themes, breakups-- 02:11 IRVIN YALOM: Exactly. 02:12 Interpersonal isolation causes depression, and then 02:17 depression makes that even worse. 02:20 In the group, we focus very much on trying to change 02:25 people's interpersonal relationships. 02:29 We try to do this quite directly by focusing on the 02:33 relationships between people in the group. 02:35 So this means--and this is what you're going to see in 02:37 these next two meetings--this means the group is focused 02:41 very much on relationships between one another. 02:44 VICTOR YALOM: This is what you call the here-and-now. 02:46 IRVIN YALOM: Exactly, the here-and-now. 02:48 These two groups stay very much in the here-and-now. 02:52 You won't hear people talking about the past very much, 02:55 although sometimes that's important for 02:57 some period of time. 02:58 But you don't hear people talking about 03:00 their outside lives. 03:01 The great majority of the talk in these groups is on the 03:04 relationships between the people. 03:06 VICTOR YALOM: Now, of course, when you do this, or you 03:08 explain it to people in preparation for a group, that 03:11 seems somewhat counterintuitive to people, 03:12 because they say, "Well, I'm not here to work on my 03:15 relationships with people in the group. 03:17 I'm here to make these changes in my life." 03:19 IRVIN YALOM: Right. 03:20 Some of them won't even know what you're talking about. 03:22 "I've got a problem with my boss. 03:24 What's talking about my relations with these people 03:27 I'll never see again?" 03:29 But we have to disabuse them of that, and educate them 03:33 about that. 03:34 We do that throughout the group, but especially in the 03:38 early preparatory meetings. 03:40 We tell them, in effect, that the group is a 03:46 kind of social microcosm. 03:48 And by that, we mean that the group is a 03:52 micro-representative of all kinds of outside issues that 03:57 you're going to encounter. 04:01 With that patient you just mentioned, if you're having 04:04 trouble with the boss, great chances are you're going to 04:08 have some issues going on with someone in the group who you 04:11 feel is very aggressive or authoritarian. 04:14 VICTOR YALOM: Or if you're a people-pleaser, and you take 04:18 care of other people but never get your own needs met, that's 04:21 going to get reenacted in the relationships in the group. 04:23 IRVIN YALOM: Absolutely. 04:24 And the job of the therapist is to begin to call attention 04:27 to that. "You know, I have a feeling you're doing here what 04:29 you're doing out there." 04:31 Or if a person is self-effacing or if a person 04:34 is grandiose or if a person is monopolistic or has no empathy 04:38 for others, all these traits will unfold in a group that's 04:44 not relatively structured, and will go on for 04:47 long periods of time. 04:48 VICTOR YALOM: Providing that the therapist does his or her 04:51 job, which is to focus the group on the 04:54 relationships in the group. 04:55 IRVIN YALOM: Right. 04:55 And that's the therapist's main job in this group: to 04:58 keep the group focused on the here-and-now. 05:00 VICTOR YALOM: And that's a hard skill to learn. 05:02 IRVIN YALOM: It is. 05:02 It is a complex group, and it takes a lot of learning. 05:07 And it's far more difficult to learn than you have a manual 05:10 that tells you what to do [at that meeting] and certain 05:12 kinds of homework. 05:13 You really have to deal with any kind of issues that are 05:15 presented by the group. 05:17 VICTOR YALOM: All right. 05:17 So, now, as we watch the first group, what should the viewer 05:20 be looking for to get the most out of it? 05:23 IRVIN YALOM: Well, look, for one thing, 05:24 what the leader does. 05:25 But, you know, these patients have already been trained. 05:28 They've been in the group for quite a while, some of them 05:30 for quite some time. 05:31 So look what's happening. 05:33 See if the group stays in the here-and-now. 05:36 Take a look at what happens with disclosure, when people 05:39 disclose themselves. 05:41 See how the therapist keeps the themes going in the group. 05:45 See how much the therapist discloses about himself. 05:49 Then there's an unusual situation in this group. 05:52 Take a look at what the presence of death--in that the 05:59 leader himself has a fatal disease--what that is 06:01 beginning to do to people. 06:03 VICTOR YALOM: Okay, so let's watch the group, and then you 06:05 and I will reconvene afterwards. 06:07 IRVIN YALOM: Glad to. 06:09 I'm really looking forward to this afternoon. 06:16 And I don't know how many times I've said that to 06:18 audiences without really meaning it. 06:23 This time, I really mean it. 06:24 I am very excited about this. 06:27 How rare is it? 06:29 In fact, it may be unique. 06:31 This is the first time in history anything like this has 06:33 been done, where a novelist gets to see his characters 06:38 come alive; not coming alive in a screenplay or movie, 06:42 which is more or less following the script of the 06:43 book, but the characters that are created in my novel are 06:48 just cut loose, like Pinocchio. 06:51 And they may follow some things in the book, but the 06:56 instructions are just to take off. 06:59 No one will lead them. 07:00 I told them all, "Don't worry. 07:02 Wherever you go or whatever track you do, Molyn will bring 07:05 you back, as a good group therapist will." 07:08 So, they're not going to follow the script of the book, 07:11 with this one exception. 07:13 The first meeting is going to start at a certain time in the 07:17 book, and I need to give you some backstory. 07:20 This is a backstory that, of course, Julius knows and all 07:24 the other group members know, except for one--Pam--who's 07:29 been away for a couple of months and she's just coming 07:32 back into this meeting today. 07:36 I have a lot of different reasons for writing this 07:39 novel, but I'm going to stick simply to what's relevant to 07:42 our presentation today. 07:44 But the major thing I want to say, I'm writing this novel as 07:48 a way of teaching something about group therapy. 07:50 And our major hope today is that the result of this is to 07:57 help you in your group therapy practice. 08:00 We want to help experienced group leaders feel more 08:05 supported by our saying and doing things that you all do 08:09 anyway in your groups, and we want to help beginning group 08:13 therapists to get some kind of guidelines for how to work 08:16 with an unusual group meeting. 08:21 The novel starts, then the part that relates to this 08:26 group starts with something that is very rare in a group 08:31 but it's not unknown--and I've known such things--a group 08:34 therapist getting a terrible, fatal illness. 08:39 And he has been given a bad prognosis. 08:47 It's malignant melanoma. 08:48 The doctor said, "We think you'll get one good year of 08:56 good-functioning life." 08:59 So, he is going to be able to function well for a year. 09:03 That was how I picked out his disease, incidentally. 09:06 I wanted somebody who could be in relatively good health for 09:11 a year, and be able to work for a year. 09:13 So I went through all the possible malignancies, the 09:17 various things that people could get, talked to all my 09:19 oncology friends, and malignant melanoma seemed to 09:22 be the right disease to give poor Julius. 09:29 Julius at that point went through in his mind what we 09:35 will see everyone go through, and each of us, having to cope 09:41 with the idea of his own non-being. 09:45 He goes through a series of personal investigations; he 09:52 goes through a great deal of panic; and then finally, the 09:55 panic subsides--and I won't go into this in depth--but with 10:00 some aid of some philosophical help, especially using one of 10:07 his own favorite philosophical writers--one of 10:12 mine too, of course. 10:16 He rereads some passages in Nietzsche, especially the 10:20 passage surrounding the idea of eternal return, a very 10:26 wacky kind of notion that Nietzsche developed. 10:29 He meant it seriously at first, but later recognized it 10:33 as a thought experiment; not a mere thought experiment, but a 10:38 thought experiment that could change your life if you really 10:41 listened to it. 10:42 And the thought experiment was to imagine a demon coming to 10:46 you one night, whispering into your ear that this life, as 10:49 you have lived it, will return to you exactly again and again 10:54 and again throughout all eternity, and that every event 10:57 that happened will once again return to you. 11:01 What would you feel? 11:03 Would you curse me, as a demon, or would you perhaps 11:08 bless me for bringing you the gladdest news in your life? 11:13 So, the object of that, if we think about that, I do think 11:16 this an important idea and concept in therapy. 11:20 I use it all the time. 11:21 The issue is, are you living your life in such a way that 11:25 you would want this exact same life to be repeated again and 11:27 again and again, throughout all eternity? 11:31 Or, would you gnash your teeth and curse the demon? 11:34 You never want to go through this life again. 11:37 If that's the case, then why? 11:40 And then we get into the concept, 11:42 in therapy, of regrets. 11:44 What are you doing in your life that's causing regrets? 11:50 Then we can be much more therapeutic by flashing 11:53 forward: what can we do so that one year from now, two 11:57 years from now, you won't have accumulated even more regrets? 12:02 That helped Julius a great deal. 12:04 And he thought about it, and he thought that he was living 12:07 his life right--that he was extremely proud of spending 12:16 his life having been a therapist. 12:18 It was an extraordinary delight for him to be able to 12:23 bring something to life in others, and he would go on 12:25 living this last life in exactly the same way he had 12:29 lived all his previous years. 12:31 So that was why he decided that he would work and lead 12:34 this group, which was a very 12:36 important part of his practice. 12:38 Those of you who are experienced group therapists 12:41 know how important a really well functioning, long-term 12:45 group can be. 12:46 And maybe some of you have experienced the same thing 12:49 that Julius did and I have, which is that a group often 12:53 creates a helpful aura about it. 12:56 It's like a bath you go into. 12:58 And it's not only that all the members in the group may get 13:01 better at once, but also the therapist is helped, too, by 13:06 being in this group. 13:08 So Julius was thinking that. 13:10 He was thinking how glad he was he had spent his life in 13:12 this fashion. 13:13 He was thinking, then, of the people he had helped, 13:16 wondering about contacting old patients that he'd seen 13:19 20, 30 years ago. 13:21 Then, suddenly, he got the notion of patients he had 13:23 failed with. 13:24 And he thought, "Well, some of these failures 13:29 aren't really failures. 13:30 Some of them are late bloomers." 13:31 We all know about the concept of patients who take something 13:35 that they learned in therapy and start using it years 13:37 later, when they're ready for our premature interpretation. 13:42 Julius had always dismissed failures as people who weren't 13:46 quite ready for his advanced brand of delivery. 13:50 But he started thinking about his failures. 13:53 And then, as he did--and he was looking in his chart 13:56 room--his eye fell upon a very thick chart, the chart of a 14:00 man named Philip--Philip, who is right here in this group. 14:06 And he thought, if ever there were a failure, that was it. 14:11 Philip had been somebody he'd seen 20 years before. 14:14 He was a sex addict. 14:16 He had worked two or three times a week with Philip for 14:19 at least three years, and hadn't budged him one inch. 14:24 He felt absolute failure. 14:26 Whatever happened to Philip? 14:27 He'd never heard of him after he stopped therapy. 14:30 And he began to get an impulsion to get 14:35 in touch with Philip. 14:37 The idea of seeing Philip again just sort of burrowed 14:40 into him, just like the melanoma, and he determined to 14:44 get in touch with Philip. 14:47 Maybe he had helped him after all. 14:49 Or maybe he still had another chance. 14:52 Maybe he's older now, and wiser and riper. 14:54 Maybe he had something still to give. 14:56 Maybe he could still redeem himself. 14:58 So he got in touch with Philip. 15:00 Saw him individually, in an individual session, only 15:05 Philip said, "Please come to my office. 15:06 I'm a counselor, too, now." 15:10 He had worked as a chemist. 15:13 And then Julius still learned that Philip had been helped 15:18 enormously--it changed his whole life. 15:20 How? 15:21 He said, "I decided that since our sessions--your sessions, 15:25 mine--were totally worthless, and very expensive"--and he 15:29 knew just how much money he had spent on this; Philip was 15:32 quite tight--he said he decided he was going to read 15:36 all the books of the Western canon of philosophy. 15:39 He was going to find something in the accumulated wisdom of 15:42 the last two thousand years that might be helpful to him. 15:46 And, while he was doing that, he had a little money saved up 15:49 and he decided he was going to switch fields and he was going 15:51 to become a philosopher. 15:52 So, he got his Ph.D. in philosophy. 15:54 And, while at Columbia getting his doctorate, he met the 15:58 perfect therapist for him, someone who had really cured 16:01 him of his addiction. 16:03 "Oh, who was that?" Julius was wondering. 16:05 He was very excited about that. "In New York? 16:08 What institute was he in?" 16:10 "His name was Arthur," Philip said. 16:14 "Arthur Schopenhauer was the man to whom I owe my life." 16:18 So, Philip became a counselor, a philosopher, and then 16:24 recently had turned to becoming a philosophical 16:27 counselor, a new kind of development in our field, 16:31 philosophers who set up shop and offer clinical philosophy 16:36 consultation. 16:42 Julius didn't quite much like what he had seen in 16:44 Philip--not only the idea that Philip confirmed that he had 16:46 been useless to him, but also, he didn't feel that Philip had 16:50 really changed very much--that he still was the same 16:53 aggressive, kind of schizoid, uncaring person 16:59 he had always been. 17:01 Imagine his surprise a short time later when Philip 17:04 contacted him and asked him whether or not he, Julius, 17:09 would be willing to supervise him. 17:10 He needed a certain number of supervisory hours to get his 17:14 license in counseling. 17:15 He didn't need it for practice, but it would help in 17:18 other ways, in malpractice unintelligible or so. 17:20 Julius was astonished at this. "Well, why would you call me 17:23 when you say I'm a total failure?" 17:25 "Well, that doesn't mean you're a bad therapist. 17:27 It means you just weren't good with me. 17:29 You used the wrong kind of therapy." 17:32 Julius thought about it and he said, "No way I'll supervise 17:35 you." 17:35 And thought to himself, You're about the worst candidate for 17:37 being a therapist I've ever seen. 17:40 You're a hater. 17:41 Therapy is a calling. 17:42 You've got to care for people. 17:44 He said, "No, I will never do that." 17:47 But then he began thinking about: if he didn't do it, 17:49 someone else would. 17:51 Maybe there was still a chance to redeem himself after all. 17:55 And he met with Philip at an individual session, and he 17:59 offered a very strange bargain to Philip. 18:03 And the bargain was "I agree that I will supervise you in 18:09 your work if, and only if, you will spend six months in my 18:15 therapy group." 18:17 The last thing in the world Philip wanted to do. 18:20 Philip was like Schopenhauer. 18:23 I built him, I constructed him, so that he was a 18:26 Schopenhauer clone. 18:28 And being together with other people, being close and being 18:32 intimate, would be Schopenhauer's and Philip's 18:34 personal view of hell. 18:36 But that was the only way he was going to get his license. 18:40 Philip agreed to come into this 18:42 strange group as a member. 18:44 And he had been there for about three meetings when this 18:47 particular meeting occurred. 18:49 What happened in those three meetings was that, much to 18:55 Julius' surprise, Philip ended up being somewhat--what should 19:01 I say?--popular in the group. 19:03 The group sort of valued his contributions, even though 19:05 they were uttered in a kind of disembodied, uncaring way. 19:10 But he uttered some wise things--wise things from 19:12 Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard and Kant--and the group was 19:17 impressed and felt helped by him. 19:19 He even gave advice. 19:21 He advised one of the members in the group, Gill, who will 19:26 raise his hand, to leave his wife. 19:28 "She's a sinking ship. 19:29 Get out of there and swim as fast as you can. 19:32 She's going to leave a big wave, but it'll suck you down. 19:35 Start swimming fast!" 19:36 The group liked that Philip was giving advice to them. 19:40 So, gradually, what was happening in the group was 19:42 there was a growing integration of Philip, 19:45 although not as a real member--he was kind of a 19:47 disembodied person--but as someone who had concepts and a 19:51 different way to do the therapy. 19:52 A growing competition, perhaps, in a young counselor 19:58 coming into the group in competition with an older, 20:03 established, experienced--but dying--therapist. 20:07 That's one of the motifs that's 20:09 happening in this group. 20:11 The other thing I need to tell you before we start the group 20:14 is that one of the members, Pam, who is--would you raise 20:18 your hand, Pam?--who has been an essential key member, kind 20:23 of the life of the group. 20:24 All group leaders know there's one particular person who they 20:28 don't like to see absent from a meeting. 20:30 It's sort of the life in that group is in that person. 20:33 She was well liked, and was a key part of that group. 20:37 Julius liked her very much. 20:39 But she had been become obsessed in a way that therapy 20:43 was of no help to her. 20:44 She got caught up with a lover and a husband. 20:51 She wanted to leave her husband but her lover wouldn't 20:55 leave his wife for her. 20:56 And she got so caught up with this, she finally took a 20:59 friend's advice and went away to India to a meditation 21:02 retreat for a couple of months, which didn't help too 21:05 much, either. 21:07 And after those two months, Pam returns to the group. 21:12 People have been eagerly waiting in the group. 21:13 So, Philip had already been meeting with the group for 21:15 about four weeks. 21:17 And then, they'd been getting some emails, and Julius 21:20 announced to the group the previous meeting, he'd just 21:23 gotten an email from Pam and she might well be coming back 21:27 to this meeting. 21:28 So, this meeting starts. 21:29 Pam has just walked into the room, has been greeting two or 21:34 three of the members that she first saw on 21:36 entering the room. 21:37 And now the group comes to life. 21:42 MOLYN LESZCZ: Just before we move into the group therapy 21:45 setting itself, a few other points. 21:50 What we hope to be able to demonstrate--Irv has spoken 21:53 about the existential theme and perspective. 21:56 We're also going to focus on the interpersonal perspective 22:00 as well, using the group as the microcosm in which each 22:05 individual person's view of himself influences the way 22:09 they relate. 22:10 The way they relate impacts on others in the room--in the 22:13 group, in their lives--and becomes a kind of 22:16 self-fulfilling prophecy, a way to maintain a very 22:19 familiar, albeit very unsatisfying, status quo. 22:24 Part of the task of a therapist is to try to create 22:28 a cohesive environment, a social microcosm, where people 22:32 are able to bring themselves as they genuinely are. 22:34 We don't want people on their best behavior. 22:37 We want them to be real. 22:39 We want to focus as much as possible on interpersonal 22:42 feedback--learning from one another, understanding how 22:46 each person recreates his own 22:48 environment in the room itself. 22:51 One of the things that we talked about earlier when we 22:55 met with the actors together--we have a wonderful 22:58 cast of characters, I must tell you--is that many 23:03 therapists, myself included, try to, before people come 23:08 into a group, have a kind of formulation, or a kind of 23:12 roadmap in my mind about each individual. 23:15 Then I look for ways in which we can access that in the 23:18 course of the group. 23:19 So I am going to take advantage of that methodology 23:23 to also flesh out a little bit about the characters beyond 23:27 what Irv has said. 23:29 This will also introduce you to the characters. 23:32 Just before I do that, I want to also comment that we're 23:36 going to hopefully illuminate issues to do with therapist 23:40 transparency, therapist disclosure, 23:44 counter-transference--its use, its hazards--recognizing this 23:50 is a bit more complicated than usual because Julius 23:54 recognizes that he is failing physically. 23:58 And, although cognitively intact, he knows he has a 24:01 limited amount of time left to work with this group. 24:03 But, as Irv commented, this is how he wants 24:06 to spend his life. 24:07 This is what revitalizes him. 24:10 The group knows about this. 24:12 Pam has learned about it through email before she comes 24:16 into the group. 24:18 We have heard about Philip--I'll start at this 24:21 end--schizoid, robotic, wanting to make himself 24:26 completely devoid of any emotion or feeling that links 24:30 him to people. 24:31 Attachment emphasizes vulnerability as a recipe for 24:36 his destruction. 24:39 There's a problem with his sexual addiction that he has 24:42 dealt with by just withdrawing completely from human 24:45 interaction and human feelings. 24:48 Bonnie. 24:50 Want to signal so people will know? 24:54 Bonnie is a woman who has always seen herself as the 25:02 frumpy, overweight girl; never part of the central circle; 25:12 always feeling that any time she was a friend to someone, 25:16 it was an imposition upon them. 25:17 Someone who prefers to stay on the margins of life. 25:21 Self-valuing, undercutting. 25:24 Has difficulties with her daughter, and is divorced. 25:32 Tony is a kind of archetype of a man's man. 25:39 Primal. 25:41 Driven. 25:42 As distant as Philip is from his primal instincts right 25:48 now, Tony is right in there, knee-deep. 25:51 There's a kind of an animal, jungle quality that some of 25:56 the women in the group quite like, and some of the men 26:00 might even envy a bit. 26:03 Tony sees himself as really in this kind of 26:08 two-dimensional way. 26:11 Pam, as Irv has commented, is just coming back. 26:14 A university professor. 26:17 Angry at men--angry in particular at men who 26:21 disappoint and exploit, and men who fail because of their 26:26 own lackings. 26:28 And her anger is a powerful and formidable force. 26:40 Gill is a man who Philip counseled about "Get 26:45 away from your wife. 26:47 She's a sinking ship." Gill does not really make a big 26:57 presentation of himself in the group. 26:59 He is more present by virtue of his absence. 27:04 Soft. 27:06 Kind of weak. 27:07 Feeble, in some regards. 27:09 Unwilling to hold his own emotions; unwilling really to 27:14 speak his own mind in any substantive way. 27:19 Rebecca is a woman who came into therapy because, at the 27:25 age of 30, she recognized that for the first time, people 27:30 were not stopping to eat when she would walk into a 27:33 restaurant. 27:34 She'd grown up all of her life feeling that her beauty was a 27:38 key that would open any door. 27:40 When she began to age and lose a sense of her unique beauty, 27:47 looked inside and didn't like what she saw. 27:51 Has a sense of herself as only being the outside. 27:59 Stuart is a pediatrician who's in therapy, as we know happens 28:04 sometimes, because his wife said to him, "If you don't get 28:08 into treatment, I'm leaving." 28:13 So, a decent man, but lacking emotional motivation, 28:18 emotional conviction. 28:20 There's a very telling scene in the book. 28:24 Stuart is identified in the group really as the group 28:27 historian and the group camera: not a real 28:30 participant, but someone who recalls the details without a 28:36 lot of emotion. 28:37 Had a dream about his daughter dying in quicksand, and he 28:41 couldn't rescue her because he was busy trying to get a 28:44 camera to try to record what was happening. 28:51 It is two-thirty now. 28:53 We are going to meet in this group. 28:55 In just a moment, we're going to start; and once we're in 28:58 role, we're in role for 55 minutes. 29:01 Then Irv will lead a discussion --Irv will actually 29:06 discuss and dissect what's gone on. 29:10 If any of you have had anxiety about having your work 29:15 analyzed or scrutinized in supervision, this is a way to 29:21 overcome any kind of apprehension 29:26 that you might have. 29:30 Then we're going to take a break. 29:32 Then we're going to reconvene at a session a few sessions 29:36 further down the road. 29:38 Then we will have ample time at the end of our afternoon 29:43 again for Irv's comments and critiques, and for your input 29:47 and perspective. 29:49 We want to make good use of that dialog at the end. 29:52 We're going to stop at 5:45 and ask you please to complete 29:57 evaluations or critical reviews. 30:02 I think we're ready to begin. 30:05 So, just to remind you, Pam has just returned to the 30:14 group, has hugged and made contact with all the old 30:18 members of the group, is just taking her seat now, 30:22 absolutely overwhelmed by seeing Philip in the group 30:31 that had been her haven and sanctuary. 30:41 PAM: You insect! 30:45 I'm floored! 30:47 I came back here from India and I can't believe this. 30:50 I thought, I was so happy to see everybody. 30:53 I was so happy to be coming back into the group, and now 30:56 what do I find? 30:57 You! 31:00 JULIUS: You know Philip? 31:03 PAM: We knew each other many years ago. 31:07 Fifteen years ago. 31:11 Can you elaborate on that, Philip? 31:15 PHILIP: Greetings, Pam. 31:19 Yes, 15 years ago, we indeed had an encounter. 31:25 I would like to posit, perhaps, that that was 15 31:31 years ago, after all. 31:33 And I've come a long way, and I hope that you have as well. 31:39 PAM: Oh, just stop right--this is ridiculous, Julius. 31:42 I can't believe this. 31:43 The man--15 years ago, he was my teacher assistant, which 31:48 basically means he was teaching my class. 31:50 I'm 18 years old. 31:51 I'm a virgin. 31:52 My best friend, Molly, falls in with this guy for three 31:57 weeks in this class. 31:59 So, he's not only our teacher, but then he has a relationship 32:03 with my best friend. 32:05 Then, he drops her after three weeks, during which time, he 32:09 deflowers me. 32:10 He has sex with me two times and drops me, too. 32:14 PHILIP: You've not heard me deny this, Pam, and I 32:16 will not deny this. 32:17 It is all true. 32:18 I will-- 32:19 PAM: Look at him sitting there! 32:21 I'm sorry, but you are the same as you were 15 years ago. 32:24 I don't know why this man is here. 32:26 I'm feeling really threatened. 32:29 PHILIP: You want me to take care of it? 32:31 I'm just kidding you. 32:32 I'm trying to quell the mood a little bit. 32:35 JULIUS: Look, Pam, I'm really sorry about this. 32:39 I know you came back already with a lot to deal with. 32:44 I want to say I'm delighted to have you back. 32:47 I'm stunned at this. 32:49 It hasn't happened to me ever before 32:51 in 40 years of practice. 32:53 And it's clear you and Philip have had this history. 33:01 I'm not sure how we should proceed. 33:03 But I do very much want you to stay. 33:07 PAM: I don't know if I'm going to be able to stay. 33:09 Julius, I heard about you and what you're going through. 33:13 I was very happy you called me on the phone and we 33:16 talked about it. 33:17 I was looking forward to coming back into the group. 33:19 I don't want to be dealing with this right now. 33:21 I want to be talking about you, and what's 33:24 going on with Julius. 33:27 And I'm just --I'm floored. 33:31 REBECCA: Pam, no one wants you to leave. 33:34 That's not what this is about whatsoever. 33:36 STUART: No one. 33:37 REBECCA: Philip has been here for three weeks. 33:39 You need to work this out, because Philip has had some 33:42 really interesting comments for the group. 33:44 STUART: He's been very helpful. 33:46 PAM: Very helpful? 33:47 STUART: Well, he's made some good suggestions. 33:51 PAM: Look at how he's sitting! 33:52 He can't even look at me! 33:54 I really find this hard to believe. 33:56 In fact, I find this to be something of a joke. 33:59 This is my haven. 34:00 This is where I come to feel safe. 34:03 And now, the man--do you know that I am no longer friends 34:08 with the person that --that whole incident broke up me and 34:11 my best friend. 34:13 We try to maintain an email relationship, but that's 34:17 nothing compared to what we were. 34:20 That man--you--broke me! 34:22 PHILIP: If I may-- 34:23 PAM: And broke up this relationship 34:26 with my best friend. 34:28 And you don't even care. 34:30 PHILIP: If I had a moment to comment upon some of these 34:36 observations you have thrown my way, I might remind you 34:41 that, of course, it was 15 years ago. 34:44 Of course, you were a consensual participant in our 34:48 action, as was your friend. 34:51 I am here as part of a contract that I have with 34:54 Julius, and which I intend to fulfill. 35:00 I apologize that my hateful reminder sitting here, that 35:07 you obviously despise this "insect," 35:10 as you stated earlier. 35:13 But this is not something that I am responsible for. 35:18 I exist. 35:20 Here I am. 35:22 And I have used this gaze to reflect inwardly, to look 35:32 honestly at my intellectual faculties to come up with my 35:36 view of the world. 35:38 PAM: You're just-- 35:38 PHILIP: I'm not affected by your hatred. 35:42 I'm only affected by my own perception of the world. 35:44 And this is where I gather strength, and this is where I 35:46 suggest you could also foster some strength as well. 35:56 JULIUS: I've got to ask you guys, how are you experiencing 36:01 what's happening so far? 36:03 BONNIE: I feel like I don't have any room to talk, because 36:06 my husband left me and I don't know anything about 36:10 relationships, obviously, but-- 36:14 REBECCA: Bonnie, this really isn't about you right now. 36:21 TONY: I'm a little distraught over something I just heard 36:25 you say just now, Philip, was about that you were here under 36:29 a contract with Julius. 36:31 And I was also hoping that you were here for us as well, to 36:34 be a participant with us and to be part of the group. 36:39 PHILIP: Being a part of the group is the essence of my 36:42 contract with Julius. 36:44 And therefore, I will learn and participate and, as you 36:49 put it, be there for you. 36:55 PAM: I don't even see how this person can be a part of the 36:59 group if his mandate is to act just like Schopenhauer, who 37:03 was absolutely about detaching and not personalizing. 37:08 Look what he just said. 37:09 He just called deflowering his student a social interaction. 37:16 He can't even call me by name. 37:18 How is this person going to help me by being here? 37:21 I don't see it. 37:22 I don't see how he's going to help any of us. 37:23 GILL: Well, I think already he has helped some of us. 37:27 I'm sorry that you've had this relationship with him that 37:31 makes you uncomfortable, but some of us need him here. 37:34 He gave me a lot of good advice. 37:36 He helped me to leave my wife, which 37:41 obviously didn't work out. 37:44 But it was good advice, and it was a good 37:48 step, and I just failed. 37:54 JULIUS: Look, Pam, this is awful. 37:57 I know how important this group has been for you. 38:00 I want to know how glad I was that you were coming back. 38:05 I had no idea about this. 38:07 I hope you know that. 38:09 PAM: Well, I appreciate you telling me that, because 38:12 walking in here, I just felt like I was being punched in 38:14 the stomach. 38:15 JULIUS: I'm sure. 38:16 BONNIE: I'm sorry, I just feel like, as important as this is, 38:20 it just pales in comparison to you, Julius. 38:23 I mean, we haven't even talked about it. 38:25 And I'm sorry that this situation came 38:27 up but it just ... 38:31 PAM: I wanted to talk about how you're 38:33 feeling, too, Julius. 38:34 I'm thrown, too. 38:36 REBECCA: We're all worried about you, Julius. 38:38 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 38:38 JULIUS: I appreciate that. 38:41 And I want to say a couple of things. 38:44 First, I'm glad, Bonnie, that you said what you did about me 38:49 just a moment ago. 38:51 I was kind of puzzled, Rebecca, by you, in essence, 38:57 silencing Bonnie, and I wondered what motivated that. 39:01 So, I'm glad that you didn't stay silenced. 39:05 And, talking about me, obviously 39:07 we're going to do that. 39:08 We have to do that. 39:09 But I don't know right now whether that's the priority. 39:13 No, that's okay. 39:15 That's okay. 39:16 I'm alert to it. 39:18 I know you have a lot of feelings about it. 39:21 But I think the first thing we need to do, to determine, is 39:24 whether we're going to be able to work together as a group, 39:29 whether you're going to be able to work through this. 39:34 There have been many times we have used these kinds of awful 39:39 events as opportunities. 39:47 What do you guys think? 39:49 PAM: Well, Julius, that's just the kind of thing that you'd 39:52 usually say. 39:53 And that's just the kind of thing that pisses me off. 39:56 But I'm not leaving my group. 39:58 REBECCA: No one's asking you to leave the group, Pam. 40:02 STUART: Yeah. 40:02 I think, in fact, there's been a lot of encouragement for you 40:05 to stay, and I believe that's what Julius is saying now; 40:09 that although this is a challenging 40:10 time, it might be useful-- 40:11 PAM: Stuart, can you say something about how you feel? 40:18 STUART: Well, there's a lot of tension among all of us here 40:23 in the group right now, and we're feeling what's happening 40:27 between you and Philip is clearly very difficult. 40:31 And I think we'd all like to know that the group is going 40:35 to hold together, and that you can stay and attempt to work 40:37 these things out. 40:39 TONY: Has anybody heard a feeling yet from Stuart? 40:41 REBECCA: No. 40:42 BONNIE: I have. 40:47 STUART: I feel--I feel that I would like you to stay. 40:54 JULIUS: That's a feeling. 40:56 That's a feeling. 40:58 BNNIE: I'm sorry, I would just like to point out that how can 41:03 he share a feeling if he's not within the group? 41:08 His chair is removed from the circle. 41:14 STUART: I'm sorry. 41:15 BONNIE: Thank you, Stuart. 41:19 TONY: Something that came up for me, Julius, if I may, is 41:21 that you were asking to not talk about this right now. 41:26 PAM: Yes. 41:27 TONY: How does that feel for the group? 41:29 Can we table this to another time, or is there some sort of 41:36 resolve that should happen now? 41:38 GILL: Well, it seems like Julius was asking whether 41:46 we're okay to continue. 41:48 And I think as long as we know that Pam's going to stay in 41:52 the group, I'd be okay with us moving on. 41:57 PHILIP: Tony, some clarification. 41:59 Are you speaking now of the situation with Julius or the 42:03 situation between Pam and myself? 42:06 TONY: I was talking about the situation between Pam and you. 42:12 PHILIP: I am completely able to continue. 42:20 I would like to make an observation. 42:25 A lot of concern has been put the way of your old and dearly 42:32 beloved member, Pam. 42:34 And I've not noticed one question about whether 42:39 Philip--myself--shall be staying in the group. 42:42 This is something that doesn't affect me, because I do not 42:48 take my personal worth from the views of 42:52 others, so that is all. 42:55 REBECCA: I, for one, would like you to stay, Philip. 42:58 I think you've been absolutely fabulous in this group, and 43:01 I've enjoyed you every second that you've been here since 43:04 you joined. 43:04 TONY: You would. 43:06 REBECCA: Hm? 43:07 TONY: I mean, since the first day he came in here, you were 43:11 preening and, you know, making flirtatious-- 43:17 REBECCA: Oh, that was flirtatious? 43:18 I'm sorry. 43:19 I didn't realize that when we actually spoke in groups to 43:21 members of the opposite sex that that was flirtation. 43:24 BONNIE: I think she's having trouble hearing you, Tony. 43:27 Every time we try to give you some sort of criticism or 43:31 feedback, you just get defensive. 43:33 And I agree; I think that since the moment that he came 43:37 in here, you've been un-taking and re-putting up your hair 43:41 and putting on your makeup and general preening for him. 43:45 REBECCA: Well, thank you, Bonnie, for that really 43:52 incredibly sensitive statement. 43:54 Thanks. 43:55 TONY: I've just been noticing that your behavior has been a 43:57 little different since Philip's been in the room, so 43:58 I can understand why you would want him to stay. 44:01 PAM: I'm just pretty disgusted by that, this thinking that 44:04 you'd even find him attractive. 44:06 REBECCA: Okay. 44:08 "Hi!" At what point did this become flirting? 44:11 At what point did I say, "Philip, I want 44:13 to fuck you?" Huh? 44:14 Did I say that? 44:16 No. 44:17 I said, "Philip, thank you for your comments. 44:19 I appreciate you being in the group, and I think a little 44:21 new blood in here has actually been a very good thing for all 44:23 of us." 44:26 BONNIE: I don't think that you're facing the reason that 44:28 you came into this group, which was because you don't 44:31 feel beautiful anymore, and that you're not getting the 44:35 attention that you desire. 44:37 I'm sorry. 44:38 I'm sorry. 44:38 I might not know what I'm talking about, but I think 44:42 that you need to face that, and that Philip's presence 44:45 here is good for all of us, including facing your own 44:50 issues with needing other people's attention and 44:54 approval to feel self-worthy. 44:56 PHILIP: If I might butt in here. 45:02 This self-worth is something that I think the great 45:06 philosophers of our time have something helpful to add, 45:10 which is if you find your self-worth from the eyes of 45:15 others--which I believe you are being accused of--this 45:20 will always go up and down and vary day to day and even 45:23 minute to minute. 45:25 But, if you instead take that self-worth inwardly, to the 45:31 rock foundation of your own self, this is something you 45:38 can supply yourself with, if not happiness, a cessation 45:43 from suffering. 45:47 REBECCA: Thank you, Philip. 45:48 PAM: Is anyone aware that he can't make eye contact with 45:51 anybody in the group? 45:54 Did anybody else notice that? 45:55 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 45:55 PAM: Does it make anybody else uncomfortable? 45:57 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 45:58 GILL: Well, Pam, maybe if you'd listen to what he was 46:00 saying instead of focus on where he's looking. 46:03 I think you're rolling your eyes every time he speaks, and 46:06 you're not listening to him. 46:08 PAM: Gill, I'm having a really hard time just by his being 46:11 here, okay? 46:12 And if you knew anything about Schopenhauer, you would know 46:16 that the man has no social skills at all. 46:20 I wanted to study him earlier on in my education, but no. 46:23 I started looking into how he lived his life, 46:27 his personal life. 46:28 Sure, he's a great writer, but come on. 46:31 The guy had no friends. 46:34 The guy was totally disconnected from everybody. 46:38 PHILIP: And thus, my point is established yet again. 46:40 One of the world's greatest philosophers, who made a 46:43 foundation of his work--and the wisdom that we shall 46:46 remember for centuries--founded upon a 46:50 foundation of looking inwardly and not to the bobbing cork of 46:55 outside up-and-down opinion, public opinion--the opinion of 46:59 others, the opinion that will always vary. 47:03 It goes with fashion. 47:05 It is fashionable, the opinion of others. 47:08 PAM: Julius, I'm at a loss. 47:10 TONY: And Philip, that's the most I've seen you almost 47:12 emotional about something in this group. 47:17 PHILIP: I do apologize. 47:18 PAM: I'm at a loss as to why you would think that his 47:25 addition into this group would be important and 47:31 functional to our group. 47:33 PHILIP: Perhaps a novel approach to 47:36 therapy itself is useful. 47:40 I posit the philosophical counselor as a new approach. 47:44 This delving into my feelings about this, my feelings about 47:49 that--perhaps we need to rise above that to a new and 47:53 different approach. 47:54 Perhaps this is why I'm popular. 47:57 BONNIE: I would have to say that I appreciate everything 48:00 that you've said to me. 48:01 But I feel like he's just discounting my feelings, which 48:05 is why I came in here. 48:09 TONY: I don't understand. 48:10 Philip? 48:11 BONNIE: Philip is discounting my feelings. 48:12 I feel like he's telling me that what I feel isn't 48:15 important and I should just not care about any of you, the 48:18 way that I feel like nobody cares about me. 48:21 PHILIP: A word of reassurance, Bonnie. 48:24 I discount my own feelings and the feelings of others, but I 48:30 do in no way discount you, Bonnie. 48:35 PAM: I've forgotten what we were really 48:40 talking about here. 48:43 REBECCA: I thought that we were talking about Julius. 48:46 STUART: We did say, in fact, that we were comfortable 48:48 tabling this conversation between Pam and Philip until 48:52 next week, and it seems as if we've come back to that 48:55 instead of talking about the larger issue. 48:58 TONY: The last question was whether, almost, Stuart, that 49:05 you were curious why Philip was brought into 49:07 the group by Julius? 49:10 STUART: Yes, I believe she said, "How would that help any 49:13 of us in our process?" 49:14 JULIUS: I'm going to jump in, because there is an 49:19 awful lot going on. 49:20 And, I have to say, as awful as we started, I have a 49:23 certain hopefulness that this is going to really be more 49:28 productive, Pam, than I think it feels for you right now. 49:33 Let's try to reflect on what's been happening so far, because 49:37 I think if we back up a little bit, I think, Tony, you were 49:41 right in your comment about Philip having a feeling. 49:44 In fact, if we go back a few minutes, Philip, you said that 49:50 no one has considered whether you would choose to stay in 49:54 this meeting. 49:55 And to me, that's the first thing that smells like a 50:00 feeling from you--that this is upsetting for you.. 50:04 This is hard for you. 50:06 That there's something going on with Pam's reaction that is 50:10 causing you to feel frustrated. 50:15 PHILIP: Let me examine that. 50:20 JULIUS: Stuart? 50:21 STUART: Yes? 50:21 JULIUS: Could you help him? 50:23 STUART: Well, he did ask whether anybody else - yes, he 50:28 noted that everyone had asked Pam about whether or not she 50:31 was going to be comfortable staying in the room, and it 50:33 seemed quite important for people to have that sense of 50:36 reassurance. 50:37 And Philip at that point noted that no one had asked whether 50:42 he were going to stay in the room. 50:44 And, as you say, it was the first time that he'd said 50:47 something that almost resembled a feeling, after 50:50 which Pam pointed out-- 50:51 JULIUS: Stuart. 50:52 STUART: --that he wasn't looking at anyone. 50:54 JULIUS: Stuart. 50:54 STUART: Yes? 50:55 JULIUS: When I asked you if you could help Philip right 50:59 now, what do you think I had in mind? 51:04 STUART: What he's feeling right now. 51:05 JULIUS: And are you able to access that? 51:08 STUART: I can try, yeah. 51:10 Well, Philip, it sounds as if you're having an emotional 51:15 response right now about the attention that the group is 51:20 paying to you. 51:21 How does that feel? 51:26 PHILIP: Thank you for the observation, Stuart. 51:31 Let me look into that. 51:32 And my first thought upon this is I believe I'm being 51:39 misunderstood. 51:39 It's not so much a feeling as I was pointing out merely an 51:44 inconsistency, and I wanted to know if this was how --I'm a 51:47 student of group therapy and therapy in general--is this 51:50 how I am to act in the future as a counselor or therapist? 51:55 This sort of inconsistency? 51:57 I didn't think that that was how one 52:03 was supposed to behave. 52:08 STUART: What inconsistency? 52:10 Can you put your finger on that? 52:12 PHILIP: Of course. 52:12 I shall repeat it one more time. 52:14 The inconsistency of Pam being asked to remain, repeatedly, 52:19 in the group, and the absence of that same 52:21 request towards my person. 52:24 STUART: It does seem we have a longstanding relationship with 52:28 Pam, and I think maybe that was the source of tension for 52:33 a lot of people here, was that she seemed uncomfortable in a 52:37 way that we're not used to seeing. 52:39 PHILIP: It is duly noted. 52:42 JULIUS: I'm going to jump in again, because there is a lot 52:47 going on here, and I think it would be useful if we could 52:51 reflect on that. 52:52 And I'm hoping --obviously, we're not going to resolve, 52:58 Pam, your obvious distress with Philip--what happened 15 53:05 years ago, 18 years ago--right at this moment. 53:09 But do we have a commitment from you, and from you, 53:14 Philip--because I think it's important for the group to 53:16 know this--that we're going to try to continue 53:19 to work with this? 53:20 Because I think it's very unsettling for the group if 53:24 people are concerned that one of you is going to drop out. 53:31 TONY: I mean, we're already concerned enough with you 53:34 dropping out. 53:36 JULIUS: Well, I haven't thought 53:38 about it in those terms. 53:41 TONY: Sorry to say it that way. 53:42 JULIUS: Yeah, but I'm sure that's a 53:44 source of real concern. 53:46 TONY: The whole group process is kind of tenuous. 53:50 GILL: Yeah. 53:52 JULIUS: You know, that's such an astute observation, Tony. 53:56 TONY: Thanks. 53:59 It just feels that everything we've been working on is ... 54:06 I don't know, it just doesn't ... it's not as easy anymore, 54:12 because ... 54:14 I don't even know how to put my finger on it. 54:16 It's like ... 54:20 I'm just worried, kind of like what Pam was saying, about 54:23 just this as almost a safe haven. 54:27 And how much longer ... 54:30 I don't know, I can't-- 54:32 STUART: You're concerned that it feels finite now? 54:34 TONY: Yeah. 54:35 I mean, a year. 54:36 And I love this group, and I need this therapy because I 54:42 really don't have anything like it in my life right now. 54:46 I mean, talking to you guys about me, and finding out more 54:49 about how I interact, is necessary for me to be able 54:55 to, I don't know, live a better life, I guess. 55:00 JULIUS: I have a comment and a question. 55:04 TONY: Uh-huh. 55:04 JULIUS: The comment is that I sense we have an agreement 55:10 that we're going to continue to try to work together, in 55:14 the face of this, and in the face of my illness. 55:20 Am I correct? 55:22 PAM: I'm not leaving my group. 55:23 JULIUS: Okay. 55:24 I'm really glad to hear that. 55:30 PHILIP: I shall remain as well. 55:32 JULIUS: I'm very glad also, Philip, to hear that. 55:38 TONY: I'll stay. 55:39 JULIUS: But Tony, you said something --I've got to tell 55:45 you guys, my head right now is filled with so 55:47 many different ideas. 55:49 And I'm aware that if I raise one, it means we're not going 55:54 to pursue another one right now. 55:55 But let me tell you what I'm thinking about. 55:59 I'm thinking, Tony, about what you value so much about this 56:04 group that you don't want to see it end. 56:07 I'd like us to flesh that out. 56:10 Bonnie, you're more in the group today than you've been 56:15 for a while. 56:16 And I'm not sure what's going on between you and Rebecca, 56:20 but, Rebecca, there's some tension there that would 56:24 really be productive for us to look at. 56:27 And, I mean, you were really outraged in response to that 56:35 feedback about preening. 56:40 And there's other stuff, too. 56:41 And I'm not oblivious to the fact--even though obviously 56:43 I'm not delighted at the prospect of talking about 56:46 it--about the impact on you of my being unwell. 56:52 But I can reassure you that right now, I'm fine. 56:57 And, in fact, I feel quite a lot of energy 57:00 being with you guys. 57:02 And I'm confident in my doctor's prognosis that I'm 57:06 going to be good for the next several months. 57:09 So we've got a chunk of time. 57:11 It's not an infinite amount of time, but it's a chunk of 57:15 time, and I want us to make the best use of it 57:20 TONY: And you've also said, you know, it's important for 57:22 us to kind of be here now, in the group, as opposed to --I 57:26 guess I was just thinking about the future and how --the 57:30 impermanence of it all. 57:32 PAM: Tony, I just really want to thank you for expressing 57:36 yourself, and putting yourself out there. 57:38 I think that's great. 57:39 And I have to say, you know, just being back from India, I 57:42 thought a lot about the group. 57:44 And I thought a lot about each of you. 57:50 And Gill, I actually didn't think about you. 57:57 I didn't think about you at all. 57:59 And I have to say, I didn't think about you because I 58:01 don't see you putting it out there in the group. 58:03 I don't have--who is Gill? 58:05 I don't really know who you are, And I needed to 58:09 say that, you know? 58:12 Other people, they're involved. 58:14 And Gill, when you talk about things, I don't see Gill. 58:21 JULIUS: That's really important feedback. 58:29 GILL: But I don't know what to say. 58:31 I think I've shared a lot with this group. 58:34 Over my marriage, and over the past year or two, I've laid 58:40 everything out there that I've come to say. 58:42 PAM: We know a lot about how Rose feels about you. 58:48 I don't know that I see you. 58:54 GILL: Well, in my dealings with Rose, I just let her do 59:05 whatever she wants. 59:06 I mean, the-- 59:08 PAM: And isn't that the problem, too? 59:10 REBECCA: You did go back to her after four hours. 59:17 GILL: Well, about that, I appreciate the support you 59:20 guys gave me. 59:20 And, of course, I appreciate you offering 59:24 me a place to stay. 59:25 STUART: That was Bonnie. 59:30 GILL: All of you, in the support in that. 59:33 STUART: Can I just--Pam, I think maybe there was one 59:36 thing that you missed while you were gone was Gill 59:40 actually brought a lot of information to the table about 59:43 his relationship with Rose and the problems they were having. 59:45 I just-- 59:47 PAM: Yeah, I got a little filled in from Julius. 59:49 STUART: He may be feeling a little attacked for-- 59:52 PAM: I was just making an observation about how each 59:57 person felt to me when I was gone, and I just 01:00:00 needed to say that. 01:00:01 GILL: I think maybe I shared more when you were gone. 01:00:05 Everyone else in this group I feel listens, and I feel 01:00:11 comfortable with. 01:00:12 But honestly, you've always been sort of the Supreme Court 01:00:19 justice to me, the judge, when I look at the group. 01:00:29 JULIUS: That sounds like it's really important. 01:00:31 Can you say more? 01:00:33 Are you okay with this, Pam? 01:00:35 I know you're just back now and-- 01:00:36 STUART: She did bring it up-- 01:00:37 PAM: I'm pretty tapped out in terms of --I mean, I needed to 01:00:40 make that comment, you know, about India. 01:00:42 But I don't need to deal with too much more. 01:00:46 I'm fine with --take it away, Julius. 01:00:49 REBECCA: You did bring it up. 01:00:51 STUART: Yeah. 01:00:57 JULIUS: I think we should respect the fact that you're 01:00:58 feeling tapped out, but your feedback to Gill about him not 01:01:04 having any kind of place in your internal world, where 01:01:08 everybody else in this room did, is 01:01:10 very important feedback. 01:01:14 We don't know, Gill, what your relationship 01:01:17 is like with Rose. 01:01:18 I have to say, I was very concerned at the way in which 01:01:21 the group kind of encouraged you to leave her, without us 01:01:27 really knowing fully what's going on on the other side. 01:01:35 So the question I want to ask you is what kind of place 01:01:39 would you like to have in Pam's internal world? 01:01:43 How would you like to be known? 01:01:47 GILL: I guess I would like to be known as, I think, just as 01:01:54 Gill, not as her judgment of me and what she puts on me 01:01:59 with what I've done. 01:02:01 When I talk about Rose, I talk about how she's 01:02:07 controlling of me. 01:02:08 She won't let me have what I want. 01:02:10 She won't give me a child. 01:02:14 And it seems to me that you seem to think 01:02:17 that's all my fault. 01:02:19 PAM: I just don't feel like you're really 01:02:21 coming to the table. 01:02:26 JULIUS: Any feedback for Gill? 01:02:29 Any help for Gill? 01:02:32 BONNIE: I'd like to tell Gill I feel the same way. 01:02:35 I feel that I know a lot about how people around you feel. 01:02:40 Even when you share stories from when you were younger, 01:02:43 you tell us about how people are feeling. 01:02:44 And if you could share anything right now that would 01:02:47 be about you, that would be--I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm 01:02:51 stuttering--that would be about you right now to let us 01:02:55 in, would be great. 01:02:58 JULIUS: Bonnie, you don't need to say "I'm sorry" every time 01:03:01 you have a comment to make. 01:03:05 Are you aware that you do that? 01:03:07 BONNIE: Yeah. 01:03:07 Yes. 01:03:10 I just feel like I'm wrong. 01:03:14 JULIUS: You just feel like what? 01:03:15 BONNIE: I'm wrong. 01:03:16 I don't know. 01:03:18 JULIUS: Could we flag that and come back to that in a moment? 01:03:21 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 01:03:21 JULIUS: Because I think that you're on to something really 01:03:24 important with Gill. 01:03:26 So, I'm going to ask you to push him. 01:03:29 Can you do that? 01:03:30 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 01:03:30 I think so. 01:03:36 So, Gill, in your relationship with Rose, you talk a lot 01:03:40 about how she's very controlling and she won't give 01:03:42 you a child and she's cold to you. 01:03:45 Is there any reason why you might think that she 01:03:47 would act that way? 01:03:51 GILL: I just still am having a hard time feeling that what's 01:03:55 going on in my life is all that important, Julius. 01:03:59 I can only imagine what you're going through, and here I am 01:04:02 complaining about a nagging wife. 01:04:05 I mean, in the end, so maybe I don't have a child. 01:04:08 Maybe I'm not supposed to have a child. 01:04:14 JULIUS: What would it be like--We don't have Rose here. 01:04:18 We only can imagine what Rose is like. 01:04:21 But let me ask you this question--Rebecca, Bonnie, 01:04:26 Pam--if you were married to Gill, based upon what you know 01:04:32 of Gill through this group, what would it be 01:04:35 like to be his wife? 01:04:40 How would that feel? 01:04:42 PAM: It would feel like I was outside knocking on a door. 01:04:45 And then, I would have to knock louder and knock harder 01:04:48 and do different things in order to get attention. 01:04:51 REBECCA: I was going to say something similar, actually. 01:04:54 I would feel like I was screaming at a wall, trying to 01:04:58 get through to you. 01:05:01 JULIUS: That's a lot of feedback, Gill. 01:05:03 There's a lot in there. 01:05:06 GILL: Yeah, I appreciate that. 01:05:12 JULIUS: So if you were to remove some of that wall, what 01:05:19 would come out? 01:05:21 What would get inside of Pam's internal world about you? 01:05:29 GILL: I think that I am a very caring person, and I think you 01:05:34 would see that. 01:05:34 And what I'm looking for is to give the best to somebody. 01:05:40 I feel that maybe you or maybe Rose are just not open to 01:05:46 receiving that. 01:05:47 BONNIE: But you're still talking about 01:05:48 other people, Gill. 01:05:51 REBECCA: You're deflecting. 01:05:56 GILL: Okay. 01:05:59 JULIUS: Something is breaking down. 01:06:01 You see yourself as a good, decent, caring man, and Pam 01:06:08 has no sense of you inside of her. 01:06:10 And Rebecca and Bonnie are saying the same thing. 01:06:14 They're knocking on a door. 01:06:16 No one's home. 01:06:17 No one's coming to the door. 01:06:18 They're withering on the vine. 01:06:23 GILL: So, something about myself that hasn't been--I've 01:06:32 been dealing with a problem with alcohol 01:06:35 for a long time now. 01:06:39 STUART: What? 01:06:41 BONNIE: What does dealing with a problem with alcohol exactly 01:06:46 mean, Gill? 01:06:47 REBECCA: He's an alcoholic. 01:06:47 BONNIE: That's not what it means. 01:06:49 He didn't say that. 01:06:51 GILL: I think she's right, Rebecca's right, though. 01:06:53 That's right. 01:06:59 TONY: How is that affecting your marriage? 01:07:02 GILL: Well, I would say it affects it a lot, because what 01:07:08 Rose and I had--a lot of what we do, when we meet with our 01:07:14 friends, what we do is we go to wine tastings. 01:07:16 PAM: Gill, when are you doing this? 01:07:18 How long have you been here? 01:07:19 How long have you been doing this? 01:07:21 You've been coming here for like weeks and months. 01:07:25 STUART: Three years, I think, almost three years. 01:07:29 GILL: It's hard to say--the thing is, there's no line 01:07:33 where you say, "Oh, hey, now I'm an alcoholic." 01:07:37 JULIUS: Is Rebecca right? 01:07:38 Is Rebecca right that your problems are of that kind of 01:07:41 proportion? 01:07:42 GILL: I would say they are. 01:07:44 BONNIE: How often are you drinking? 01:07:46 REBECCA: How much do you drink? 01:07:47 GILL: Every night. 01:07:48 BONNIE: Where do you do it? 01:07:49 GILL: At home. 01:07:50 REBECCA: Does she not know? 01:07:52 GILL: Oh, Rose knows. 01:07:53 Yeah, I come home and I --she won't drink with me anymore. 01:07:56 That was what we'd do with our friends. 01:07:59 I'd come home, have a couple glasses of wine, something 01:08:02 good, and then I move on to some scotch. 01:08:06 BONNIE: And all this talk about Rose being such a frigid 01:08:10 bitch and she won't give you a child? 01:08:12 No wonder she won't. 01:08:14 REBECCA: No wonder she won't give you a child. 01:08:19 BONNIE: I don't want to say that. 01:08:24 Thank you for sharing. 01:08:25 I'm sorry. 01:08:27 JULIUS: You're putting yourself, Bonnie, into Rose's 01:08:29 shoes a little bit there. 01:08:31 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 01:08:31 JULIUS: What's it like for people to hear this now? 01:08:40 PAM: Well, that was a little bit of coming to the table. 01:08:43 STUART: Yeah. 01:08:45 PAM: Good job, Gill. 01:08:48 REBECCA: I feel like we're all in this group to talk about 01:08:54 those kinds of things, and to say, "At what point do you 01:08:58 bring it in?"--I mean, this is group therapy. 01:09:01 This is what we do, we come here and talk. 01:09:04 So, I feel like maybe you've been hiding this for a reason. 01:09:12 GILL: I wouldn't say hiding. 01:09:13 When I come to the meetings every week, that's the first 01:09:17 thing on my mind. 01:09:18 That's what I come to say. 01:09:20 But it always seems like something else comes up in the 01:09:24 group, there are more important things to talk 01:09:27 about--especially now. 01:09:31 JULIUS: What's it been like, Gill, to come here session 01:09:35 after session after session, thinking that "Tonight's the 01:09:38 night, I'm going to talk about this very important part of my 01:09:42 life," and never do it? 01:09:45 What's it like? 01:09:46 What's it been like? 01:09:48 GILL: It's almost like relief every time I 01:09:50 don't talk about it. 01:09:52 You know, building it up beforehand, and then I come 01:09:55 through to the group and talk to people, but not saying it 01:09:59 has been a relief, but not as big a relief as saying it. 01:10:04 The one thing I was hoping was that when I did come out with 01:10:08 this, you guys --what I was afraid of, I guess, is that 01:10:12 you wouldn't let me be part of the group anymore; that 01:10:16 because of this problem, you would make me leave and go to 01:10:19 AA and wouldn't let me come. 01:10:23 JULIUS: So you've really been frightened of our judgment, 01:10:27 not just Pam's. 01:10:29 GILL: Not just Pam's, everybody. 01:10:31 That's the way people look at alcoholics. 01:10:36 REBECCA: Gill, no one is sending you to AA. 01:10:40 TONY: Unless you want to go. 01:10:41 BONNIE: And we'll support you. 01:10:45 TONY: Not that I want you to go or leave or 01:10:48 anything like that. 01:10:48 I'm just saying that-- 01:10:49 REBECCA: We won't make you go. 01:10:50 TONY: --it is a possibility. 01:10:52 JULIUS: In fact, it doesn't mean that Gill couldn't 01:10:58 continue with us. 01:11:00 So let's not throw that option out. 01:11:03 But I think right now what we need to look at is you being 01:11:08 able to bring this to us today. 01:11:10 What's made it possible today? 01:11:13 Months and months of not, and tonight, you've been able to. 01:11:20 GILL: I guess I just couldn't keep it anymore. 01:11:26 So much has been happening. 01:11:27 And I wanted you to know. 01:11:34 JULIUS: Me in particular? 01:11:36 Say more. 01:11:38 GILL: Well, I feel like I've been keeping 01:11:40 that, well, from everyone. 01:11:42 But especially you, with what's going on now, I feel 01:11:46 like I failed everybody just by keeping that from you. 01:11:53 Like I haven't lived up to my part of the bargain, I guess. 01:12:01 JULIUS: You want to own that, living up to 01:12:04 your part of the bargain. 01:12:07 REBECCA: Can I say something? 01:12:09 JULIUS: Just before you do, Rebecca, I think it's really 01:12:13 important that we not miss that last comment. 01:12:17 You want to own up to your part of the bargain, which I 01:12:21 think is an incredibly important 01:12:23 statement for you to make. 01:12:27 Do you feel that? 01:12:30 GILL: I do, yeah. 01:12:31 JULIUS: If you track the emotion that's attached to 01:12:34 that, where does it take you? 01:12:39 GILL: I think it starts with shame. 01:12:44 And I think it ends up with a bit of pride in taking 01:12:50 ownership over. 01:12:51 JULIUS: Yeah. 01:12:56 I cut you off, Rebecca, but I just didn't want to lose that. 01:12:59 And I see you nodding your head in response to what 01:13:02 Gill's just been saying. 01:13:04 REBECCA: Well, I was just going to say in response that 01:13:06 over the last year, you keep talking about Rose, and I know 01:13:11 that it's come up a number of times that she 01:13:13 won't give you a child. 01:13:14 And though it's not word for word, you're basically saying 01:13:19 she's not holding up her end of the 01:13:20 bargain of your marriage. 01:13:23 And I think, with you saying that just now, I feel like 01:13:26 that's a very big revelation, because maybe you're not 01:13:31 upholding your part of the bargain. 01:13:33 I'm not trying to give you shame, but I'm saying that 01:13:39 maybe we now know a little bit more of where 01:13:41 Rose is coming from. 01:13:44 GILL: I think you're right. 01:13:47 JULIUS: What's it going to be like going home tonight, Gill, 01:13:51 after tonight's meeting? 01:13:56 GILL: It's going to be hard. 01:13:58 Rose and I don't really talk a whole lot right now, so I'm 01:14:05 not really sure what I should tell her about 01:14:09 today--or our friends. 01:14:19 JULIUS: Other reactions? 01:14:20 Comments? 01:14:21 Feedback for Gill? 01:14:24 Tony, I'm having a little trouble seeing Bonnie. 01:14:26 Could I trouble you to move back? 01:14:27 Would you mind? 01:14:28 BONNIE: Oh, that's okay. 01:14:28 You don't need to-- 01:14:29 JULIUS: I just realized that I haven't been able to see you 01:14:33 for the last 20 minutes. 01:14:37 BONNIE: I sometimes feel that way in my life. 01:14:41 So, I'm used to that. 01:14:44 It's okay. 01:14:45 What were you going to say, Philip? 01:14:47 TONY: Bonnie, you don't need to be so accepting of the fact 01:14:53 that that's okay, that you don't feel seen. 01:14:59 BONNIE: Well, I feel like Philip was asked a question 01:15:02 that he didn't get to answer. 01:15:05 PHILIP: I did have a comment for Gill. 01:15:09 Gill, I'm one who, at one point in my life, struggled 01:15:13 with addiction, although it was of a different form. 01:15:16 It was a sexual addiction. 01:15:19 And I just want to tell you that what you've done today is 01:15:27 just a very important first step, and congratulations. 01:15:34 TONY: Congratulations. 01:15:35 REBECCA: Congratulations, Gill. 01:15:38 GILL: Thanks. 01:15:38 PAM: I want to say, I feel like I've been in the room 01:15:40 with a stranger. 01:15:41 I mean, to reveal this after knowing you for so long. 01:15:44 And I'm really feeling for Rose right now. 01:15:48 I'm seeing her in a whole different light and that's 01:15:50 just throwing me. 01:15:52 BONNIE: I feel like it's really important that we 01:15:54 support Gill in sharing information and 01:15:58 not judge him, Pam. 01:16:06 JULIUS: You're going to stick to that position, Bonnie? 01:16:08 BONNIE: Uh-huh. 01:16:09 JULIUS: I notice you didn't retract it. 01:16:11 BONNIE: Huh-uh. 01:16:11 JULIUS: You didn't say "sorry." Even added, for 01:16:14 emphasis, "Pam." 01:16:18 BONNIE: I just feel very judged--and I know how Gill 01:16:22 feels--by Rebecca. 01:16:26 REBECCA: You want to talk about that, Bonnie? 01:16:30 STUART: Pam did bring up the --you sort of began this with 01:16:34 an attack on Gill and his admission is 01:16:38 a response to that. 01:16:39 PAM: I was speaking truthfully. 01:16:40 And I didn't feel like I was attacking Gill. 01:16:43 It was something that was very strong for me that I realized 01:16:46 when I was sitting vipassana in India. 01:16:48 Gill was nowhere in there. 01:16:51 And now, Gill, you're somewhere. 01:16:54 You're right here right now. 01:16:55 And that's - 01:16:57 PHILIP: Due to you, Pam. 01:16:59 TONY: Yeah, I mean, Pam, you were a catalyst, in a sense, 01:17:04 by calling you out, Gill, and allowing you the opportunity 01:17:09 to share what you've been holding back from telling us. 01:17:15 REBECCA: You asked a question. 01:17:18 PHILIP: But the victory is to Gill, not to Pam. 01:17:28 TONY: Could you elaborate on that at all? 01:17:35 PHILIP: I've been noticing in Pam's brief inclusion, as I've 01:17:40 been a member of the group, that it does seem to be 01:17:44 Pam-centric. 01:17:51 Gill has a great personal growth and revelation and it 01:17:59 comes back to Pam. 01:18:02 No more, no less. 01:18:05 PAM: You know, I think I said a long time ago in this 01:18:07 session that I was tapped out, and really didn't need to have 01:18:10 the focus on me. 01:18:13 PHILIP: And there you are again. 01:18:14 PAM: Gill came up with something, and now Bonnie's 01:18:16 come up with something. 01:18:16 Can we bring that back? 01:18:19 TONY: Knowing that you're tapped out, is there a way you 01:18:22 can receive what Philip just said and not today have to 01:18:29 deal with it? 01:18:32 Rebecca was right earlier when she said that--or was it you, 01:18:35 Gill, that said--you often dismiss what 01:18:40 Philip's been saying? 01:18:43 Just saying that you don't have to deal with it right now 01:18:45 but - 01:18:45 PAM: Okay, I'll think about it. 01:18:47 JULIUS: Okay. 01:18:48 BONNIE: Can I make a comment? 01:18:51 JULIUS: You don't need to raise your 01:18:52 hand to make a comment. 01:18:55 REBECCA: May I talk in the group? 01:18:57 JULIUS: You don't need to. 01:18:58 REBECCA: Good. 01:18:59 Stuart has removed himself from the circle again. 01:19:00 STUART: Sorry. 01:19:07 PHILIP: And what effect did that have on you? 01:19:10 REBECCA: Well, I just kept having to turn to see where he 01:19:13 was, and he's incessantly clicking his pen. 01:19:17 STUART: Thank you. 01:19:20 REBECCA: I'm not angry, it was just bothering me. 01:19:28 JULIUS: If you weren't doing this with your pen, what might 01:19:34 you be doing? 01:19:39 STUART: Well, I think there's a lot that's been going on. 01:19:42 I don't want to take the attention. 01:19:45 The focus doesn't need to be on me right now. 01:19:46 Clearly, there's a lot of energy happening in 01:19:50 the room right now. 01:19:53 JULIUS: And your relationship to that energy? 01:19:58 STUART: Well, I felt the one comment that I did make a few 01:20:02 moments ago sort of got shot down by Pam. 01:20:04 And my intent was not to attack, but merely to recount 01:20:08 the sequence of events that we had gone through. 01:20:11 So, I didn't feel like I was adding anything productive, or 01:20:16 it wasn't received as such by the group. 01:20:18 And that's okay. 01:20:21 That's okay. 01:20:25 JULIUS: It's okay, yet you're clicking your pen and inching 01:20:29 back away from the rest of the group. 01:20:32 STUART: I was not intentionally. 01:20:33 I apologize. 01:20:34 It didn't even notice until Rebecca said 01:20:36 something about it. 01:20:39 JULIUS: But you're communicating something, 01:20:40 obviously, that Rebecca picked up on. 01:20:49 STUART: I guess, again, I feel like there were some bigger 01:20:55 issues at play that maybe I wasn't a part of, that were 01:20:58 happening in the room just then. 01:21:00 And I didn't want to get in the way of those things 01:21:05 working themselves out. 01:21:08 JULIUS: You didn't want to get in the way. 01:21:13 STUART: Well, I felt that the few times I 01:21:15 spoke were not helpful. 01:21:21 Or didn't seem to be helpful. 01:21:23 Or they didn't feel helpful to me. 01:21:28 I felt a little disregarded. 01:21:32 REBECCA: Stuart just said "feel." 01:21:38 BONNIE: I assure you, I feel that way, too. 01:21:40 A lot. 01:21:41 TONY: Which way? 01:21:42 BONNIE: Disregarded by the group. 01:21:45 TONY: All the time? 01:21:50 BONNIE: Yes. 01:21:52 I mean, Rebecca is so deft at getting the attention brought 01:21:59 back to her. 01:21:59 Even though she's talking about somebody else, she's 01:22:02 really talking about herself so that she can get attention. 01:22:05 And you always listen to her and give you all of your 01:22:09 focus, and I sometimes feel like --may I ask a question to 01:22:16 all of you? 01:22:17 TONY: Please. 01:22:20 BONNIE: Why do you not look me in the eye when I talk, and 01:22:23 listen a lot? 01:22:26 Why don't you give me the attention sometimes I feel 01:22:29 like you give Rebecca, because she is beautiful? 01:22:37 TONY: I'm not really aware that I don't give you that 01:22:40 attention, from my perspective, in 01:22:42 answering your question. 01:22:46 BONNIE: Just the other session, I was talking about 01:22:48 my daughter, and we brought up about the bar 01:22:53 that she went to. 01:22:54 And you had a story about the bar fight that you had there, 01:22:58 and we just dropped all conversation about-- 01:23:03 JULIUS: Bonnie, I'm aware of the time. 01:23:08 I know, I know. 01:23:13 But that's why I want to speak to you. 01:23:17 I hope that you're going to be able to hear me, that I wish 01:23:21 we had more time right now. 01:23:22 BONNIE: I wish we had more time together, too. 01:23:24 JULIUS: Yeah, but we have more time next session and the 01:23:27 session after that and after that. 01:23:30 And I think that we have done a lot of work today. 01:23:34 And again, Pam, it's great having you back. 01:23:37 PAM: Thanks, Julius. 01:23:37 JULIUS: I know this has been hard. 01:23:39 We've got lots of stuff to talk about. 01:23:41 But we opened up a lot of really great issues. 01:23:44 And your comment, Bonnie, when you addressed Pam directly 01:23:49 about judgment, I think is something worth looking at. 01:23:55 Because I would hate, Gill, for you to leave this meeting 01:24:01 feeling criticized for finally speaking to us. 01:24:06 It's very important that we be able to recognize how 01:24:11 important it is for you to bring that here, and not 01:24:14 punish you for not having been able to do it before. 01:24:17 That's really an important point. 01:24:19 You've been instrumental, Bonnie, in 01:24:21 bringing that forward. 01:24:23 And when you say, "How come no one looks at me?" my response 01:24:27 is it is good that you are able to recognize that, and 01:24:32 you want to push us to look at that with you. 01:24:36 We have worked, I think, a lot today. 01:24:39 I'm going to stop now. 01:24:41 I look forward to seeing you all next week. 01:25:02 IRVIN YALOM: Interesting. 01:25:03 Very interesting meeting. 01:25:05 Very odd experience for me to hear this, because I wrote 01:25:10 this group in another fashion, and I feel critical at some 01:25:15 level for them not doing it the way I said to do it. 01:25:17 They're getting to some of the same issues. 01:25:20 I have to really get that set out of my mind and just 01:25:24 pretend this is a pure, new meeting, the members 01:25:28 struggling and doing things in an entirely different way. 01:25:35 You may take note, I don't think Molyn made a single 01:25:40 comment today that wasn't on the process. 01:25:43 I can't remember a single one. 01:25:45 And every comment he made had something to do with what was 01:25:51 going with some member of the group or other 01:25:54 members of the group. 01:25:55 It was all addressed. 01:25:56 It wasn't outside stuff. 01:25:58 It was all what's going on here in the group. 01:26:02 I do the same thing. 01:26:03 I rarely make comments in the group that aren't in the 01:26:07 here-and-now. 01:26:11 Molyn started off saying he's a little worried about 01:26:15 --that's funny, because the theme came up in the meeting, 01:26:17 wasn't it, about being judged? 01:26:19 And that was an important issue, because Gill felt he 01:26:25 was going to be judged by others in the group. 01:26:30 He commented that Pam was the chief justice in here. 01:26:36 And I think we got at that in an interesting way. 01:26:39 It was a slightly different way in the novel, which was if 01:26:41 somebody talks about --Molyn did it in this way. 01:26:45 Let's make a backtrack. 01:26:47 He makes a comment that he's an alcoholic, and the group 01:26:52 immediately is jumping on that issue--how much 01:26:55 do you drink, when? 01:26:55 Outraged they hadn't heard this before. 01:26:58 All these things. 01:26:59 But Molyn goes back to a cardinal rule of group 01:27:02 therapy, which is when people make a revelation, they should 01:27:08 not be punished for it in any way. 01:27:10 So, he wanted to make sure that Gill 01:27:14 wasn't being punished. 01:27:15 And instead, he tried to focus onto process. 01:27:19 Not "How much did you drink?" But "What was it like for you 01:27:23 to tell us that today?" 01:27:25 And then, he even pushed back even further. 01:27:28 "What was it like for you to come to this meeting other 01:27:31 times and not tell 01:27:32 us today?" You see? 01:27:34 And then that led into--that could lead into, it wasn't 01:27:39 quite in that sequence in this group, but that would lead 01:27:41 into Gill saying, "I was afraid to mention that in this 01:27:45 group." 01:27:46 And then, you could say, "What were you afraid of?" 01:27:49 "Oh, I'd be judged." 01:27:51 And then, it's almost reflex on the group therapist's part, 01:27:57 because you say, "You'll be judged by whom?" 01:28:02 People say by everybody. 01:28:04 Never buy it. 01:28:05 They don't feel the same about every person in the group. 01:28:09 So, you ask them, "Who? 01:28:10 Who are the judges in this room?" 01:28:12 And that's, in another version of this meeting, that's how he 01:28:16 got to the chief justice, to Pam, and other people began to 01:28:22 talk about their sense of Pam's judgmentalism also. 01:28:27 Almost all the members, first of all, they had to deal a lot 01:28:32 with this very, very strange situation, with Pam coming 01:28:37 into a meeting where she's been away for a few meetings. 01:28:40 She sees someone in there who had been someone who had been 01:28:45 very destructive to her in her life, and she's full of rage. 01:28:50 And, in the way that the group could take place, that could 01:28:55 be a chief problem in the group. 01:28:58 Molyn did what a therapist has to do. 01:29:01 The main thing he's got to do is to keep the group intact. 01:29:06 If the group's not intact, if the group explodes, then you 01:29:11 don't have anything to work with. 01:29:12 So, he's worried about group cohesion, he's worried about 01:29:15 keeping everyone in the group. 01:29:16 He's getting commitments from each of those members to stay 01:29:20 in the group. 01:29:20 They're both pretty stubborn. 01:29:22 Philip is saying, in effect, "I paid my six months. 01:29:25 I'm going to pay my six months. 01:29:26 I may have already. 01:29:27 I ain't leaving no matter what." 01:29:29 And then, Pam is also encouraged to stay because of 01:29:33 her long-term and pretty loving relationship with the 01:29:36 other members of the group. 01:29:37 So, once we get that, we know that we have a big problem 01:29:40 there, and we have to see how far it can go. 01:29:43 So, the group members and the leader kind of found out from 01:29:47 Pam, "How much can you take today?" 01:29:49 Members will feel a little bit more in control if there's a 01:29:53 drastic situation and they get to monitor it. 01:29:57 They can at least say, "I can do about five more minutes of 01:30:01 this." 01:30:02 Or, "I'm just about tapped out at this point." 01:30:05 So, have them --he kept going back to Pam and letting her 01:30:09 control about how much of this could she take today. 01:30:12 Once both members are in the group, you can bet that two 01:30:19 members in great conflict with one another, chances are, they 01:30:23 will be two very important members to one another. 01:30:27 They will be important. 01:30:28 When the group is over years later, they will say they 01:30:32 really learned a great deal from that person 01:30:35 being in the group. 01:30:38 In fact, in the novel, the last chapter starts just with 01:30:42 that observation. 01:30:47 So, each member got talked about. 01:30:49 There was a question of Rebecca preening for Philip 01:30:55 and some comments about Stuart being a camera, about Stuart's 01:31:03 chair being pushed slightly out of the circle. 01:31:06 That's a little autobiographical one for me. 01:31:09 There was a group that I was meeting with for some time, 01:31:12 and suddenly one of the members noticed, "Your chair," 01:31:14 to one of the members, "is always out of the circle. 01:31:17 Not much--an inch or two--but it's always there." 01:31:20 That was an enormously important intervention as we 01:31:23 began to get into the fact that he's 01:31:26 never entirely there. 01:31:29 And now, we understood why he came in saying, "My wife keeps 01:31:33 saying I am not present. 01:31:35 I'm there, I've there with her, but I ain't present." So, 01:31:39 in the group, there was that microcosm, a kind of metaphor, 01:31:44 where he was not quite present in the group. 01:31:47 So on a number of occasions, Stuart talked and the group 01:31:52 members began to question "Well, where's the feeling in 01:31:55 there?" 01:31:56 At one point, he said, "I would like you to 01:32:02 stay" as his feeling. 01:32:04 Well, there's a little bit of a feeling in there. 01:32:06 It wasn't much. 01:32:07 Molyn gave him the benefit of the doubt for 01:32:09 that being a feeling. 01:32:10 I wouldn't have. 01:32:12 But Molyn started this meeting saying that he has this 01:32:18 concern about being supervised by me. 01:32:22 That feels sort of strange. 01:32:24 For years and years and years, when I was lecturing to large 01:32:27 audiences, I had the secret internal image of fear as I 01:32:31 talked that sometime some gray-haired analytic eminence 01:32:37 was going to stand up and say, "This is bullshit!" 01:32:40 But for a long time now, I've never had to worry about that, 01:32:48 because I'm the oldest person around in here and I would 01:32:51 never do that. 01:32:52 One advantage--there are not a whole lot, but one advantage 01:32:54 in growing old. 01:32:58 Another advantage is--I'm really free-associating 01:33:02 here--another advantage is a metaphor that Schopenhauer 01:33:05 pointed out, one that's really a nice metaphor. 01:33:07 I can't quote it exactly, but it had to do with that when 01:33:13 you're young--he's looking at a piece of embroidery and how 01:33:16 beautiful it seems when you look at the embroidery--when 01:33:19 you get old, you see the reverse side of the 01:33:22 embroidery. 01:33:23 It's not very pretty to look at, but at least you see all 01:33:28 the threads are connected, so that there is some advantage 01:33:31 in growing old; you begin to see how things are 01:33:33 connected in life. 01:33:36 Back to the circle. 01:33:38 On several occasions, the group circled back to Molyn, 01:33:44 because he's the big --in a sense, he's the elephant in 01:33:48 the room that can't be talked about, his death. 01:33:51 And they came back to this and came back to this, as they 01:33:54 always will. 01:33:55 It's always going to be present in the group. 01:33:58 And he is saying, in effect, to them, "I'm willing 01:34:03 to talk about it. 01:34:04 I'm dealing with it. 01:34:05 I'm speaking with a lot of people in my life. 01:34:07 I feel I have the energy to be in this group. 01:34:10 And, not only that, the group vitalizes me. 01:34:14 And the worse thing you can do, really, is to isolate 01:34:19 yourselves from me." 01:34:21 Being in a group with a dying person, working in some 01:34:26 way--if you're a therapist or a member, or a member is the 01:34:29 dying person in the group--without fail, it will 01:34:33 start to stir up a lot of anxiety in the group, because 01:34:37 if you're going to engage that person, it will mean that 01:34:40 you're going to, at some level, begin to 01:34:43 confront your own death. 01:34:45 Nightmares will start to appear, and anxiety will start 01:34:47 to appear, as well. 01:34:49 So, that's always going to be part of the 01:34:51 horizon of this group. 01:34:53 It makes it a very unusual group. 01:34:59 Molyn asked a very interesting question to Bonnie, I think. 01:35:04 He asked her the question, "Well, if you were going to be 01:35:09 married to"--Was it to Gill? 01:35:12 It was to Gill. "If you're going to be married to Gill 01:35:15 --you're with him here one hour a day, but if you were 01:35:18 with him 24 hours a day, what would that be like?" 01:35:22 He's trying to help the members find ways to talk 01:35:26 about them, trying to break down the barriers of 01:35:29 conventional etiquette. 01:35:36 The big revelation in this group had to do, of course, 01:35:39 not only with Pam and Philip, but also with the alcoholism. 01:35:47 The alcoholism came out, and then work was done there so 01:35:52 that he wouldn't feel scapegoated, so that they 01:35:55 would acknowledge that he had done this--it was a brave 01:35:59 thing to do. 01:36:01 Molyn is suggesting very quickly that AA and group 01:36:06 therapy are not incompatible at all, and that a daily AA 01:36:12 meeting continue. 01:36:14 Because the work is, of course, so different. 01:36:16 They're very different. 01:36:18 Occasionally, you go to A.A. meetings where they may be 01:36:22 able a little what they call "cross-talking" there. 01:36:25 Generally not. 01:36:26 You do not do any cross-talking. 01:36:28 Members do not talk to one another. 01:36:30 It's not this kind of interaction. 01:36:34 A.A. groups just simply don't work with 01:36:37 this sort of direction. 01:36:38 They do other kinds of things that are useful, and people 01:36:41 tell their stories, they empathize with others, they 01:36:44 identify, they get moral lessons taught to them as they 01:36:47 see what's happened to others, they get reminded of what it 01:36:49 was like for them to be in the throes of alcoholism, but they 01:36:52 do not work on interpersonal interaction and skills. 01:37:00 Let's see. 01:37:01 Molyn used a technique with Stuart, when his chair went 01:37:06 back and he was clicking on his pen. 01:37:08 "So, what would you do if you weren't clicking on the pen?" 01:37:12 It didn't get huge results in this time, but by and large, 01:37:17 it's using that kind of conditional voice. 01:37:20 "If you weren't doing this, then what might you be doing?" 01:37:23 So, it's a way of asking people to reveal, but at one 01:37:27 step removed. 01:37:28 It's a little safer. 01:37:29 "If you were going to tell me what's on your mind, what 01:37:32 would you say?" 01:37:35 You do that all the time. 01:37:36 It usually works like magic. 01:37:41 Okay, so those are the comments off 01:37:44 the top of my head. 01:37:45 Any other thoughts? 01:37:47 Molyn, do you want to say anything else? 01:37:51 MOLYN: Sure. 01:37:54 I found the group kind of really mesmerized my attention 01:37:59 very quickly, and that it felt like group. 01:38:03 It didn't feel, in fact, that there was an audience, other 01:38:07 than for the occasional laughter, which is, to me, a 01:38:11 sign that I'm really involved with what's happening. 01:38:14 I was heartened by that. 01:38:17 Oftentimes, we have to activate the group. 01:38:22 This was a group that did not need activation, so I felt a 01:38:28 lot of my activity was focused on the second part of the 01:38:32 therapist's responsibility, which is to try to make sense 01:38:35 of experience, and to maximize the learning that could follow 01:38:42 from the risks people were taking. 01:38:45 I felt satisfied with the way in which we got to Gill, even 01:38:53 though it's different that the novel. 01:38:59 People know one another through the group experience, 01:39:03 and through that, can put themselves sometimes into the 01:39:06 shoes of important people in that group member's life. 01:39:11 And I found that's a way to kind of bring back into the 01:39:14 room issues around Gill, in terms of what it would be like 01:39:19 to be married to him. 01:39:21 I thought when Pam said, "I thought about everyone except 01:39:25 you, Gill," that that was a kind of gift to the therapist, 01:39:30 because it allows you then to dive right in to what it is 01:39:34 about what is it about Gill that keeps him so absent. 01:39:38 And then, little by little, we kind of ratcheted up the 01:39:41 pressure on Gill, and he was able to make a very 01:39:46 significant self-disclosure to the group. 01:39:49 And then, interestingly enough--and I think this a 01:39:52 reflection of how deep in role Pam is--that everyone in the 01:39:59 group quickly was able to get to embracing Gill for his 01:40:07 disclosure, except for Pam, who was still kind of holding 01:40:11 on to the criticalness. 01:40:15 So when Bonnie was able to kind of highlight that, I kind 01:40:18 of jumped all over that, for two reasons. 01:40:22 One reason, Bonnie, as we know, it's very hard for her 01:40:27 kind of to make her voice felt, make her voice heard. 01:40:31 And it kind of struck me, and I commented, that I couldn't 01:40:35 see Bonnie, and hadn't been aware of the fact that I 01:40:38 couldn't see Bonnie. 01:40:39 Once I became aware of the fact that I was unaware of the 01:40:42 fact, then it became data, interpersonal data, that had 01:40:48 to be mined. 01:40:49 And then, you were able to give Pam some feedback about 01:40:57 her judgmentalism, which was critically important, so that 01:41:01 Gill doesn't leave feeling the criticism after this important 01:41:06 self-disclosure. 01:41:08 Groups lock people into roles. 01:41:11 And as a therapist, when you see some kind of shift, 01:41:16 evolution beyond that role, you want to make sure that it 01:41:20 doesn't get lost, that it doesn't get extinguished by 01:41:23 virtue of people failing to see the advance. 01:41:28 The reason that people can't see the advance often is 01:41:31 linked to their own kind of stuff. 01:41:33 But some of it has to do with group-wide pressures about 01:41:37 keeping people in familiar positions. 01:41:40 So I wanted to jump all over that. 01:41:44 Similarly, I feel in some ways Philip has the most taxing 01:41:51 position to take. 01:41:56 So I felt myself paying very, very close attention to any 01:42:00 kind of hint, any kind of smell, of a feeling, and 01:42:04 wanting to try to jump all over that. 01:42:07 Because ultimately, as a therapist, you have to believe 01:42:11 that someone like Philip is damaged rather than evil. 01:42:20 And you have to, as a therapist, keep working with 01:42:24 that principle, so that you can empathize with the 01:42:28 behavior that sometimes may be so antagonistic and 01:42:32 adversarial to others in the group. 01:42:34 Sometimes you have a difficult task of being the advocate for 01:42:38 the antagonist. 01:42:40 If Philip would have been able to say, "Pam, I'm sorry"--look 01:42:44 Pam in the face--of course, he'd be way ahead of where he 01:42:48 is right now. 01:42:49 But we have to kind of nourish that as much as possible. 01:42:55 I felt that we were able to kind of make some 01:43:01 movement with that. 01:43:04 There was so much going on in the group that I knew that I 01:43:09 couldn't get to everything in the 55 minutes that we had. 01:43:13 But I tried to make it a point to not neglect it, but to, in 01:43:17 fact, say, "Okay, we'll flag it. 01:43:20 We'll come back to it later," so that people know that 01:43:23 you're alert to their change. 01:43:26 Because if your patients imagine that what you've done 01:43:31 is ignored by the therapist, or ignored by others in the 01:43:35 group, it's going to extinguish that risk-taking. 01:43:39 It's going to extinguish that line of work. 01:43:41 So we want to behaviorally reinforce that. 01:43:46 And I felt, so far, my transparency has really been 01:43:49 focused upon my here-and-now reaction to the meaning and 01:43:54 feelings I have about what's been happening in the group. 01:43:57 There is, at the same time, as I know, a big agenda, which is 01:44:01 the group dealing with my illness. 01:44:06 And we will, I imagine, in time, get to that. 01:44:11 So, those are some of my preliminary thoughts. 01:44:16 IRVIN YALOM: Yeah, I think you're commenting on the fact 01:44:18 that you were sort of opening up your own dilemma. 01:44:21 You're saying, "There are different things here and I'm 01:44:25 in a dilemma; if I pay attention to one, I'll have to 01:44:27 pass on the other--for now, at least," which is an awfully 01:44:31 good sharing. 01:44:32 In a sense, you're saying, "I have a dilemma. 01:44:36 I want to talk about both things, and I have to take a 01:44:40 choice, but we'll come back to that." So, I 01:44:41 thought that was important. 01:44:43 And then, I agree entirely, there's a big problem with 01:44:46 dealing with the illness. 01:44:47 And perhaps the therapist is making it a little harder for 01:44:52 the group by using slight euphemisms like "I'm unwell." 01:44:57 May be that if he came right out with "I've got cancer," 01:45:02 you know, something like that, that that might jar them a 01:45:05 little bit and help them be more direct with him, because 01:45:08 they're taking their cues from him in this meeting. 01:45:11 So they get a little bit of cues that they shouldn't be 01:45:13 going too far into it. 01:45:14 VICTOR YALOM: Well, that was a fascinating group and 01:45:18 discussion. 01:45:19 In your remarks, you commented that Molyn's interventions 01:45:25 were almost entirely process-oriented. 01:45:28 And you've talked about that before, but I think it would 01:45:30 be helpful to clarify exactly what you mean by that. 01:45:33 IRVIN YALOM: Yeah, I think that's a good question, 01:45:35 because "process" is used in so many different ways in our 01:45:37 field, and in other fields, too. 01:45:40 I'm thinking of process as distinguished from content. 01:45:46 If you have two people speaking to one another, what 01:45:51 they're saying, the words they're saying, the concepts 01:45:53 that they're talking about is content. 01:45:55 But if you ask about process, you're asking 01:45:58 another kind of question. 01:45:59 It's, "What do these words tell you about the nature of 01:46:03 the relationship of the people involved in there." And that's 01:46:07 where pay dirt is in a therapy group. 01:46:10 We'll hear content for a while, but then we turn it 01:46:12 back to process. 01:46:14 What are these people feeling? 01:46:15 What are these people saying about one another? 01:46:17 VICTOR YALOM: So, just to be real clear, if someone is 01:46:20 talking about some difficulties in their 01:46:22 marriage, and they're going on and on and on, oblivious to 01:46:25 other group members, the content would be their 01:46:28 marriage, but the process might be that they're really 01:46:31 very unaware of other members, or narcissistic even, or 01:46:35 something like that? 01:46:35 IRVIN YALOM: It's a terrific example, because if you spend 01:46:39 the group talking about their marriage, it's not going to be 01:46:41 a profitable group. 01:46:42 But if you spend the group on how they have a lack of 01:46:45 empathy for other people in the group, how they're not 01:46:49 asking the question, "What do all these people think about 01:46:51 my taking 25 minutes and talking about my marriage?" 01:46:54 you're going to get much more work done in that group. 01:46:57 The power is in that dimension. 01:47:00 The group's power is not in one person taking the whole 01:47:03 group meeting and another person taking 01:47:05 the whole group meeting. 01:47:07 VICTOR YALOM: So, in this group, we saw some examples of 01:47:09 process--Pam got a lot of feedback about how she's the 01:47:14 judger, the Supreme Court judge. 01:47:16 And Gill, his problems in his marriage. 01:47:20 It would be hard to really find out what--He painted a 01:47:24 picture of what's happening in the marriage, but by focusing 01:47:26 on the process of how people experience him in the group, 01:47:30 and even Molyn's asking members what it would be like 01:47:32 to be married to him, that's a way of working 01:47:36 on a process basis. 01:47:37 IRVIN YALOM: Yes, both of those examples are excellent 01:47:40 ways of using a group. 01:47:41 The first one, people talk about they feel like they're 01:47:44 being judged by people. 01:47:46 It's one of my traits: "I'm being judged by people." 01:47:50 Well, the good group therapist, I think, will 01:47:52 automatically change that into, "Who's judging you here? 01:47:56 Who's the main judge here?" 01:47:58 VICTOR YALOM: So you make it specific. 01:47:59 IRVIN YALOM: Make it specific. 01:48:00 "Who's the judge here?" And they may point out a person or 01:48:04 two, and then you get some consensual validation from the 01:48:07 others--whether they disagree with that, they don't see 01:48:10 these people as judge, and that tell you something about 01:48:13 his inner world. 01:48:14 If everybody kind of agrees with that, then Pam is really 01:48:17 compelled to kind of take a look at her judgmentalism. 01:48:21 And the other that you 01:48:22 mentioned--was it Gill, I think? 01:48:24 VICTOR YALOM: Yes. 01:48:24 IRVIN YALOM: Yeah, when Gill talks about his problems with 01:48:27 his marriage. 01:48:28 It's always difficult to do marital therapy when only one 01:48:33 member of the team is there. 01:48:35 You find yourself making mistakes all the time. 01:48:39 VICTOR YALOM: Well, in this case, he's been in the group a 01:48:41 long time and he reveals that he actually had a serious 01:48:44 alcohol problem. 01:48:45 IRVIN YALOM: Right. 01:48:45 VICTOR YALOM: So, that's an example. 01:48:46 You could never get the truth just hearing the content of 01:48:50 what he's saying. 01:48:51 IRVIN YALOM: Yeah. 01:48:51 For a long time, everybody was very angry with the wife for 01:48:54 what she was doing. 01:48:55 After he mentioned that, people understood the wife a 01:48:57 lot better. 01:48:58 And the device that Molyn used in that was to ask the other 01:49:03 members, "Well, just imagine for a while what it would be 01:49:06 like to be married to Gill--not just spend an hour 01:49:09 and a half a week, but to spend 24 hours a day. 01:49:12 What do you feel like?" 01:49:13 He's not asking for insults here. 01:49:15 He's asking for problems that they would see in not getting 01:49:19 close to Gill and not being in a loving 01:49:21 relationship with him. 01:49:22 I think that's a terrific question, and it's a way to 01:49:26 really bring out the power of the group. 01:49:28 I want to mention, too, that this is a complex situation. 01:49:33 We're letting these patients go wherever they go, and we're 01:49:38 trying to take a look at how these problems enfold in a 01:49:41 huge multitude of ways. 01:49:43 So, this is, I think, the most complex of all therapies. 01:49:47 There are simpler ways of doing a group. 01:49:49 You have a manual. 01:49:50 They tell you what to do one session, what to 01:49:52 do in another session. 01:49:53 As the therapist, you feel a lot better, you feel safer. 01:49:57 But leading groups like this takes time. 01:50:00 You should be in a group like this for yourself. 01:50:02 You should be supervised by the group. 01:50:04 But when that happens, it becomes a very complex--and 01:50:08 also very rich--kind of human experience. 01:50:11 VICTOR YALOM: I think as we now watch the second group, 01:50:14 one of the things to pay attention to is exactly that: 01:50:18 how artfully Molyn is able to attend to many issues of 01:50:24 members at the same time. 01:50:25 It's kind of like a traffic cop who's also juggling balls 01:50:31 at the same time. 01:50:32 And if two people are having an issue, they're not the only 01:50:36 ones that are working, because someone is observing and 01:50:39 they're having their own reactions 01:50:41 they can share later. 01:50:42 So, I think he does a masterful job of that. 01:50:44 IRVIN YALOM: Exactly. 01:50:45 VICTOR YALOM: So let's take a look, and then we'll meet back 01:50:48 one more time.