Human Resource Management Labor and Employee Relations

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13 OPENING STATEMENT BY MR. NORTH:

14 The critical incident that forms the

15 basis for the suspension occurred on October 29,

16 2009. On that date, a teacher named Monica Harper,

17 was looking for

18 a student whose first name is Karen. She, you know,

19 the student hadn't shown up to her class. She had

20 checked various places, made calls to try to locate

21 the student because she wasn't marked as an absent

22 student that day.

23 She got a phone call from the library

24 from a staff member there indicating that the student

1 was there in the library. Ann Marie Swenson is the

2 librarian. The staff member put Karen on the phone

3 with the teacher, Ms. Harper.

7 So Ms. Harper talked to the student and

8 asked for the librarian to be put on. And Ann Marie

9 Swenson got on the phone at that time. The teacher

10 asked Ms. Swenson, you know, "How long has the

11 student been in the library?" "Did she sign in?" And

12 "what is she doing there?"

13 Ms. Swenson took the phone away from

14 her mouth slightly, had a conversation with the

15 student which is overheard by the teacher on the other

16 end. Basically she asked the student, you know, "How

17 long have you been here?" "Since the beginning of the

18 period." "Did you sign in?" "No." She then says,

19 "Okay, I'll lie." She gets back on the phone with the

20 teacher and said -- after ascertaining the period

21 began at 1:42 says, "She signed in at 1:42."

22 And so, you know, she has this

23 conversation with the student, immediately talking to

24 the teacher again. And so the misconduct here is

1 lying to her colleague and including the student in

2 this lie.

3 You know, procedurally she was then

4 interviewed by the principal at some point with her

5 union representation present. And she stated that she

6 didn't say she would lie, she said she would cover for

7 the student. But she admitted that she had the

8 student sign in after the conversation with the

9 teacher and not before, as she had said to the

10 teacher.

11 This is an individual who has two prior

12 suspensions, a three-day and a five-day suspension,

13 which I'll put those records in. And so based on the

14 seriousness of the offense, you know, the breach of

15 trust among the staff and progressive discipline, a

16 20-day suspension was imposed.

17 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Thank you.

18 Attorney Mahoney, would you wish to

19 have an opening statement now or wait until your

20 case?

21 MS. MAHONEY: I'll do it now. Thank

22 you.

24 OPENING STATEMENT BY MS. MAHONEY:

1 As, I don't think anybody is going to

2 disagree, this case turns on the events of October 29,

3 2009. The employer, as I suggested in one of my

4 motions, has one version, Ms. Swenson has another.

5 The details, Mr. Arbitrator, are very important. This

6 was, from our perspective, and I think the facts will

7 bear this out, a simple misunderstanding or

8 miscommunication.

9 The evidence will not support the

10 employer's allegations that Ms. Swenson lied to a

11 colleague, let alone that she lied to a colleague in

12 front of or involving a student or students. Rather,

13 it will support Ms. Swenson's testimony,

14 Ms. Swenson's position, which is that she did nothing

15 wrong. She didn't lie. She didn't mislead or

16 intentionally mislead Ms. Harper. Ms. Harper

17 misunderstood Ms. Swenson. That's obviously

18 unfortunate, but there was no wrongdoing on the part

19 of Ms. Swenson in the scenario.

20 Further, this disciplinary matter was

21 handled without due process.

5 In addition, other due process issues

6 arise. The investigation, in addition to the unlawful

7 investigative interview, which took place on November

8 5th, 2009 by the way, the employer sent a written

9 follow-up to the interview to Ms. Swenson.

10 Ms. Swenson responded to the follow-up seeking to

11 correct an important fact that the investigator had

12 gotten wrong. Then there was nothing.

13 So investigative interview November 5,

14 written follow-up from the investigator, who is

15 Mr. Hollis, who is here today. He is the building

16 principal. My client, Ms. Swenson responded to him

17 in a timely fashion seeking to correct what she saw as

18 a material misstatement in his rendition. That

19 response was dated November 24th.

20 In Mr. Hollis's November 16th follow-

21 up, he had said, you know, one thing, he forbade her

22 from speaking to Ms. Harper until his investigation

23 was complete. He never got back to her, never told

24 Ms. Swenson, my investigation is complete. Never

1 notified her or her union of any follow-up, any

2 conclusion. And based on the meeting that

3 Ms. Swenson had had on the 5th of November and the

4 written follow-up that took place shortly thereafter,

5 she had every reason to believe that the matter was

6 behind her, that it had been resolved, that she had

7 explained the situation to the satisfaction of the

8 employer and she moved on. Four and a half months

9 later, she got a notice of intent to suspend from the

10 superintendent of schools. That's a due process

11 problem.

1 There is absolutely no

2 reason that we've been given or that we can see that

3 the employer waited four and a half months to let

4 Ms. Swenson know that this was indeed, going to be an

5 issue for her. And in that time, memories faded. Her

6 memory faded. The memory of other percipient

7 witnesses, Mr. Arbitrator, faded. And here we are.

8 So in short, the evidence both regarding

9 the events of October 29, 2009 such as it is, such as

10 it's been preserved, as well as the evidence

11 concerning due process or the lack thereof, we

12 respectfully submit support a finding that this

13 discipline lacked just cause, was a violation of the

14 statute, was otherwise improper and should be

15 reversed.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. ARBITRATOR: Thank you.

18 MR. NORTH: First witness?

19 MR. ARBITRATOR: First witness, please.

20 Would you like the witnesses sworn?

21 MR. NORTH: Yes.

22 MS. MAHONEY: Yes, please.

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: If there is anyone, I

1 guess on both sides --

2 MR. NORTH: Do you want me to bring

3 them in and have them sworn in at the same time?

4 MR. ARBITRATOR: Well, why don't we just go

5 with the two that are here and as they come in I can

6 swear them in.

7 MR. NORTH: Okay. The first witness is

8 Ms. Harper.

9 (Ms. Harper enters the room.)

10 (Witnesses sworn.)

11 MR. ARBITRATOR: Having been sworn in,

12 could you please state your name.

13 THE WITNESS: Monica Harper.

15 ************

16 MONICA HARPER

17 ************

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

20 Q. And Ms. Harper, is your previous last name

21 Harper?

22 A. Correct, yes.

23 Q. And how are you employed?

24 A. I am a biology and biotechnology teacher at

1 Attleboro.

2 Q. And for how long have you been employed in

3 that capacity?

4 A. This is my third year.

5 Q. And do you have previous experience before

6 Attleboro?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. What is that?

9 A. I taught at Lincoln for a maternity

10 leave that was about two months long. I was a TA at a

11 program at UMass. And I

12 worked summers at a school in Providence as a teacher's aide.

14 Q. And what's your educational background?

15 A. I've got a bachelor's in science in biology

16 and biotechnology from WPI in Worcester and I have a

17 master's in education from UMass.

18 Q. And at the present time, what are your

19 duties at Attleboro?

20 A. I teach freshmen biology one week and then

21 the other week I teach freshmen biotechnology.

22 Q. And do you recall being involved in a

23 situation involving a student named Karen on October

24 29, 2009?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you tell the arbitrator what

3 happened that day?

4 A. Yes. That day was a quiz day. When

5 Karen's class came in, Karen was not with her

6 class. I called down to the nurse's office. She

7 wasn't at the nurse. I called down to the main

8 office, she hadn't been dismissed. So I had Nancy

9 C. do an all-call, page her throughout the school.

10 After that I received a phone call from Kathy Lanier

11 in the library and she said Karen was up there.

12 Q. Who is Kathy Lanier?

13 A. Kathy Lanier works in the library. I'm not

14 sure what her title is. She might be like a librarian

15 assistant, I'm not sure.

16 Q. Okay. So what happened when you talked to

17 Kathy Lanier?

18 A. Kathy said that Karen was there. And I

19 asked to speak to Karen. Karen came on the phone.

20 I asked her what she was doing there, because she

21 hadn't reported to class. I wanted to know why she

22 was in the library. And she said that she was there

23 dealing with a personal issue.

24 Q. Um-hum. What happened then?

1 A. So then I asked Karen if I could talk to

2 the librarian. And this time it was Ann Marie

3 Swenson on the phone. And I asked her, what was

4 Karen doing there, you know, did she see her come

5 in. You know, I just wanted to know if Karen was

6 really at the library the whole time.

7 Q. What happened then?

8 A. And then, you know, she said, "I'll ask

9 her" and went to talk to Karen. And I could still

10 hear the conversation on the phone. She asked Karen

11 if she signed in. And Karen said "no." And then she

12 said, "All right. Well, I'll lie. How long do you

13 think you've been here?" And Karen said, "Since the

14 beginning of the period." And then, um, you know,

15 they talked about when the period began. And you

16 know, 1:42 was the beginning of that period, or 1:40.

17 I think the bell rings for the previous one at 1:36 or

18 something like that.

19 And Ann Marie came back on the phone and said

20 "She signed in at 1:42." You know, "I saw her come

21 in. She's been here the whole time." And I said,

22 "You know, I heard that. I heard that conversation."

23 And her response to me was, "well, that's why I'm

24 always telling the kids, you've got to sign in.

1 You've got to sign in when you come into the

2 library." And then, you know, we decided that Karen

3 was going to stay up there because she was taking her

4 quiz in the library. She's in a small group testing

5 for her IEP, special ed. So she was taking her test

6 up there anyways. So, you know, she stayed up there.

7 I think Ann Marie asked me if the rest of my class was

8 coming up, and I said "no" and then we said our good-

9 byes.

10 Q. Okay. So what happened after that

11 conversation at the end of the day?

12 A. Well, at the time I was still a second-year

13 teacher so I had a mentor. So I went to ask my mentor

14 what I should do. And my mentor suggested that I

15 write a letter and that the appropriate person to send

16 it to would be Shirley Lepri, our dean of

17 academics.

18 Q. And did you write such a letter?

19 A. I did, that afternoon.

20 Q. And when did you send the letter or when

21 did you deliver the letter?

22 A. I sent it the next day.

23 Q. I'm going to show you what I'd like to --

24 I'm going to first show you a letter dated October

1 30th and mark that District 1 for identification. Do

2 you recognize that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. What is that?

5 A. This is the letter I sent. This is an

6 e-mail to Shirley Lepri.

7 MR. NORTH: I'd like to offer that as

8 District 1.

9 MS. MAHONEY: Objection.

10 MR. ARBITRATOR: What is the objection?

11 MS. MAHONEY: Well, that we're seeing

12 it for the first time today. That it's not as it was

13 conveyed to Ms. Lepri. It's not signed. How many

14 objections do I need?

15 MR. ARBITRATOR: Well, you -- as you want

16 to put forward. But I'm going to allow it into

17 evidence.

18 MR. NORTH: All right.

19 Q. Now --

20 MR. ARBITRATOR: Excuse me. So this will

21 be District 1.

22 MR. NORTH: District 1.

23 (District Exhibit 1 marked.)

24 Q. Now why was the information that you were

1 trying to get from Ms. Swenson important?

2 A. Karen -- this wasn't the first time that

3 Karen didn't report to class at the beginning of

4 class. She kind of had a history of dealing with

5 these personal issues. And it was really important to

6 me that I held Karen accountable for these things,

7 for not reporting to class on time. And so what I

8 really wanted to know was, you know, if Karen was

9 actually in the library or was she not in the library,

10 had she maybe left school grounds and was lying to

11 me. I wanted to know where Karen was.

12 Q. What about the issue whether Karen had

13 signed into the library, was that something you wanted

14 to know?

15 A. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I did want to know

16 if she had signed in. You know, she wasn't supposed

17 to be in the library, so -- but yeah.

18 Q. Was the situation upsetting to you?

19 A. It was.

20 Q. Why?

21 A. Because I always felt that us staff were

22 supposed to be kind of on the same side trying to help

23 our students be responsible and accountable for their

24 actions.

1 Q. Do you have a vivid memory of these events?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Why?

4 A. Because it was so shocking to me as a

5 second year teacher to hear those words over the

6 phone.

7 Q. Which words?

8 A. The words "I'll lie," lying for a student.

9 Q. Prior to this incident, had you had any

10 conflicts with Ann Marie Swenson?

11 A. Not one, no.

12 MR. NORTH: I have no further

13 questions.

14 MR. ARBITRATOR: Attorney Mahoney.

15 MS. MAHONEY: Well, since I didn't take

16 any time before to review this letter, I'll need to

17 take some time now.

18 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sure. Understood.

19 (Off the record.)

20 MR. ARBITRATOR: Back on the record.

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

23 Q. Good morning. My name is Sheilah

24 Mahoney. I'm here on behalf of Ann Marie Swenson.

1 I'm her lawyer. And I'm going to be asking you some

2 questions. Okay?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Your responses need to be verbal because

5 the stenographer can't get a nod or a shaking of the

6 head. Okay?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I think I heard you testify

9 earlier that you just wanted to know if Karen was

10 really at the library, is that correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Okay. And you were satisfied then that she

13 was at the library?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That was the purpose of your call, wasn't

16 it?

17 A. It was the -- well, I was called.

18 Q. Well, the purpose of the conversation, if

19 you will, was to ascertain whether Karen was really

20 in the library, is that right?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Okay. I think that's what you testified to

23 when Mr. North was asking you questions, right?

24 A. Um-hum.

1 Q. Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what time was this conversation on the

4 telephone?

5 A. I don't recall.

6 Q. Don't know the time. Is that right?

7 A. That's correct. It would have been after

8 1:42.

9 Q. Okay. That's what time the period starts,

10 1:42, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was it 5th period, is that what it's

13 called?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. But you didn't make a note of the

16 time anywhere at the time of this conversation. And

17 you don't have any recollection as to what time it

18 was, is that correct?

19 A. Not an exact time, no.

20 Q. All you know is that it was after 1:42,

21 because it was after the start of the period, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony that you

24 called, I'm sorry, that you asked Ms. Swenson what

1 was going on?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's what you said, "What's going on?"

4 Were those your words?

5 A. As I recollect them, yes.

6 Q. Okay. And you asked what Karen was doing

7 in the library, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Because you thought Ms. Swenson would know

10 what she was doing in the library, is that why you

11 asked Ms. Swenson?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know if Ms. Swenson

13 knew.

14 Q. Did you ask Karen what she was doing in

15 the library?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Okay. And what did she tell you?

18 A. She was dealing with a personal issue.

19 Q. Okay. And it's true that you had a plan

20 for her to be in the library that day, is that right?

21 A. Correct, yes.

22 Q. So that's not in dispute. She was -- it

23 was appropriate for her to be in the library that day,

24 right?

1 A. That day, but not at that time.

2 Q. At a different -- during a different

3 period?

4 A. During that period. The students report to

5 class first.

6 Q. Okay. And so your issue with her was that

7 she hadn't reported to class first, is that right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Would Karen have known before the period

10 started that your plan was to send her to the library?

11 A. I don't know if she remembered there was a

12 quiz or not.

13 Q. But if she did, then she would have known

14 that she was to report to the library and be quizzed

15 and be part of a group that was being taught by Donna

16 Thomas, is that right?

17 A. They report to class first.

18 Q. That's not my question. My question is, if

19 she had remembered that there was a quiz, she would

20 have known that she was to take the quiz in the

21 library under the supervision of Donna Thomas, is

22 that right?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And I think you testified that you had had

1 issues with Karen before regarding whether or not she

2 reported to class first before she went elsewhere, is

3 that the issue you'd had with her before?

4 A. Not necessarily elsewhere, just reporting

5 to class on time at all.

6 Q. So had this ever -- had the issue of

7 reporting to the library without reporting to class

8 first ever come up with Karen before that you're

9 aware of?

10 A. Not that I'm aware of. Not the library.

11 Q. So you asked Ms. Swenson a general

12 question about what was going on, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what was Ms. Swenson's answer to that

15 question?

16 A. She said to hold on, she was going to ask

17 Karen.

18 Q. And you didn't say, "Well, no. I've

19 already asked Karen"?

20 A. Well, I didn't know if Karen was telling

21 the truth or not.

22 Q. Okay. Well, but she said "Hang on. I'm

23 going to ask Karen." Did you actually expect that

24 Karen was going to give Ms. Swenson a different

1 answer than she gave to you?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. Um, so she asked Karen or she did

4 what, what did she do?

5 A. What I heard on my end was Ann Marie saying

6 to Karen, "Did you sign in to the library? When you

7 came in, did you sign in?"

8 Q. Okay. So -- this is important, so I want

9 to make sure I have the sequence right and details

10 correct. You asked her "What was going on," right?

11 Ms. Swenson, that is, is that right?

12 A. (Nods head.)

13 Q. Yes?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sorry. The stenographer really cannot get

16 the nodding. Okay.

17 A. I'm just thinking, sorry.

18 Q. Okay. You asked Ms. Swenson what was

19 going on, is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. You also, your letter also indicates

22 you asked her what Karen was doing in the library and

23 how long she had been there. Did you ask Ms. Swenson

24 those three questions in rapid succession or did you

1 ask her a question and expect her to get you answers

2 to them one at a time?

3 A. I did not ask them one at a time. It was

4 more like the rapid fire.

5 Q. Okay. And Ms. Swenson, as far as you

6 know, moved away from -- moved the phone away from her

7 mouth, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you weren't there, were you?

10 A. I was not.

11 Q. Were you calling from a phone that had a

12 view of Ms. Swenson's office?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Isn't it true, Ms. Harper, that you

15 don't know what Ms. Swenson did with the phone?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. Okay. So to say that she moved the phone

18 away from her mouth is to say something that you don't

19 know with any certainty, isn't that right?

20 A. That's true.

21 Q. And you've testified that you believe you

22 heard her talking to Karen, is that right?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And you believe that you heard Ms. Swenson

1 say "I'll lie" is that right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And in fact, that is the only words, those

4 are the only words in your letter of October 30th that

5 are in quotes, isn't that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. So you haven't bothered to quote yourself

8 accurately, right?

9 A. No. This is kind of more of a summary.

10 No.

11 Q. But you didn't think it was important to

12 accurately capture exactly what you said to

13 Ms. Swenson, is that right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. But you have put in quotes the words "I'll

16 lie," is that right?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Even though those words were not said into

19 the phone receiver, right?

20 A. I heard them, but you're right, they

21 weren't said directly into the receiver.

22 Q. And you understood that you were calling an

23 office, right?

24 A. I'm not sure which phone was picked up.

1 Q. Okay. But you understood that there may be

2 other people around, right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And you heard the words "I'll lie"?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And believed that Ann Marie Swenson said

7 them, is that right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And then you heard Ann Marie say something

10 else. What was that?

11 A. "How long do you think you've been here?"

12 Q. Is that exactly what she said?

13 A. In my memory, yes.

14 Q. Okay. But you didn't put anything else

15 that Ms. Swenson said in quotes?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. So let's back up. In your memory,

18 Ms. Harper, why don't you tell us everything you

19 remember in chronological order about what you said

20 and what Ms. Swenson said during this conversation.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Go ahead.

23 A. So Ann Marie came on the phone.

24 Q. Did she identify herself?

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. And I asked her a series of questions about

4 Karen's activities and what was going on, how long

5 had Karen been there, had she seen her in there?

6 Q. Okay. So you're asking rapid fire

7 questions without giving her an opportunity to

8 respond. I think that's what you testified to

9 earlier, right?

10 A. In my memory, yes.

11 Q. So, I'm sorry, because I don't write that

12 fast. You said first what?

13 A. To my memory, I believe I asked, you know,

14 what was going on? Had she seen her? How long had

15 she been there?

16 Q. Not giving Ms. Swenson an opportunity to

17 respond in between each question, which question did

18 you expect her to respond to, or did you expect her to

19 respond to all of them?

20 MR. NORTH: I'm going to object to

21 that. It's argumentative. Calls for speculation.

22 It's asking her to get into the head of Ms. Swenson.

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: Can you just explain that

24 further?

1 MR. NORTH: It's just -- it's asking

2 her what, you know, what Ms. Swenson -- what question

3 Ms. Swenson thought she should answer, essentially,

4 asking her to speculate about that.

5 MS. MAHONEY: Let me clarify the

6 question.

7 MR. ARBITRATOR: Please do.

8 Q. Did you expect her to respond to the

9 question, "What's going on?"

10 A. Yes. In reference to Karen being in the

11 library, yes.

12 Q. Did you think that that question was clear?

13 A. I thought, you know, with what was going

14 on, in context, it was clear.

15 Q. Okay. And then did you get an answer from

16 Ms. Swenson to any of the three questions that you

17 have recounted here?

18 A. The answer I received was, you know, "I

19 don't know. Hold on."

20 Q. Okay. "I don't know. Hold on." Is that

21 exactly what she said?

22 A. In my memory as it stands today, yes.

23 Q. And then what happened?

24 A. That's when I began to hear the quieter

1 conversation of who I believed was Ann Marie Swenson

2 and Karen.

3 Q. How long did that conversation last?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. No memory?

6 A. It was a short conversation. I didn't have

7 a stopwatch.

8 Q. What did the conversation consist of?

9 A. I heard what I believed to be Ann Marie

10 Swenson saying to Karen, "Okay. How long do you

11 think you've been in here" -- I'm sorry. She asked

12 first if she had signed in. I apologize. And Karen

13 said. "No." And then she asked, "Well, how long do

14 you think you've been in here? I'll lie."

15 Q. Okay. Hang on. This is important. How

16 long have you -- she asked first, have you signed in?

17 A. "Did you sign in?"

18 Q. And did Karen respond?

19 A. Karen said "no."

20 Q. Then what?

21 A. Then Ann Marie said, "I'll lie. How long

22 do you think you've been here?"

23 Q. Isn't it more accurate to say, the person

24 you believed was Ann Marie Swenson said "I'll lie"?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then what?

3 A. Ann Marie and Karen spoke about when the

4 period began. I don't remember what their exact words

5 were. They must have been looking at a bell schedule

6 or something. I don't remember what the exact words

7 were around that conversation.

8 Q. So they had a separate conversation that

9 you can't recall with any detail around the bell

10 schedule?

11 A. Well, figuring out when the period began,

12 because Karen had said she had been there since the

13 beginning of the period. I'm sorry.

14 Q. Okay. So when did Karen say, "I've been

15 here since the beginning of the period"?

16 A. That was her response to Ann Marie asking

17 her, "How long do you think you've been here?"

18 Q. And she said "I've been here since the

19 beginning of the period"?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Okay. And then is that when the

22 conversation that you think you heard discussing bell

23 schedules took place?

24 A. Right. When the period began.

1 Q. And can you recall any exact words there or

2 you're just not clear on what was exactly said there?

3 A. You know, I think Ann Marie asked, "What

4 time did the period start?" And, you know, they

5 agreed that it was 1:42 was the time the period

6 started.

7 Q. Then what?

8 A. Ann Marie came back on the phone and told

9 me she signed in at 1:42. She's been at the library

10 the whole time. She saw her come in.

11 Q. Okay. "She signed in at 1:42. She's been

12 in the library the whole time." What else?

13 A. "I saw her come in."

14 Q. "I saw her come in." Okay. Then what did

15 you say?

16 A. I told her that I had heard the discussion.

17 Q. So, your exact words?

18 A. I said "Ann Marie, I heard that. I heard

19 the discussion."

20 Q. And her response?

21 A. She said, "Well, that's why I'm always

22 telling students they've got to sign in. They've got

23 to sign in."

24 Q. Did you say, "I heard you say 'I'll lie'"?

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. Did you pursue that any further in your

3 conversation with Ms. Swenson that day?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you say "I'm upset"?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you say "I feel disrespected"?

8 A. Not to Ann Marie, no.

9 Q. You, in fact, continued your conversation

10 with her, didn't you?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Um-hum. Okay. So you dropped this issue

13 that you say you have with Ms. Swenson or what you

14 believe she said and took up another matter in your

15 conversation with Ms. Swenson, is that right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And what was that?

18 A. Well, I told her that Karen would stay up

19 there in the library, because by this time, you know,

20 it was time to take the quiz, so it was fine that she

21 was up there already. She didn't have to come back

22 down. Ann Marie asked if the rest of my class was

23 coming up, I said "no." Then we said our good-byes.

24 Q. So at no point during that conversation did

1 you confront her and tell her that you had heard her

2 or thought you heard her saying "I'll lie"?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And you didn't indicate any upset during

5 your conversation with her?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. When did the conversation end?

8 A. I don't recall a specific time on the

9 clock.

10 Q. You don't know what time it was when it

11 ended, do you?

12 A. No, I don't recall the time.

13 Q. Where were you when you were having this

14 conversation?

15 A. In my classroom in front of 24 students.

16 Q. Let's see. When you were talking with

17 Ms. Swenson, did you reference Karen by name?

18 A. I don't remember if I used Karen's name.

19 Q. When you, let's see. When you asked to

20 speak to Karen, were you still on the phone in front

21 of 24 students?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And did you ask to speak to Karen

24 by name?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you asked Ms. Swenson "What's going

3 on?" You issued your rapid fire questions to

4 Ms. Swenson while you were on the phone in front of

5 24 students?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you feel disrespected by the fact that

8 Karen hadn't shown up in your classroom?

9 A. Yeah. Disrespect to me and her class.

10 Q. Do you have some level of responsibility

11 for the students who are supposed to be in your

12 classroom at a given time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you felt responsible for Karen, right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Are you responsible for Karen before the

17 bell rings for the start of that period?

18 A. No. I mean, as one of her general teachers

19 I will always feel responsible for her at school, but

20 not specifically.

21 Q. Not responsible for her whereabouts, right?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. You may be responsible generally for her

24 safety and well-being, right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But you didn't feel responsibility for her

3 whereabouts until 1:42, is that right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Is it your testimony that you didn't ask --

6 forgive me, this is all new to me here, that you

7 didn't ask what time she had signed in?

8 A. That's correct. I didn't ask what time she

9 had signed in.

10 Q. You weren't interested in that?

11 A. She wasn't supposed to be in the library.

12 I wouldn't have thought she had signed in.

13 Q. Do you know what the sign-in policy for the

14 library is?

15 A. I don't know it verbatim, no.

16 Q. Do you have any understanding of it?

17 A. My understanding is that when students come

18 up to use the library, if they're not with a class,

19 they're signing in.

20 Q. And so is it your understanding that when

21 Karen is in the library with Ms. Thomas she doesn't

22 need to sign in?

23 A. I don't know actually. I've never been

24 there for that.

1 Q. But it's your understanding that if a

2 student is in the library alone or without a teacher,

3 they don't -- they do have to sign in. But if they're

4 there with their teacher, they don't have to sign in,

5 is that your understanding?

6 A. When I take a class to the library, the

7 entire class does not sign in.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And that's the only sign-in knowledge I

10 really have.

11 Q. I think you just testified that she wasn't

12 supposed to be in the library so you would not expect

13 her to sign in?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Is that right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. But you don't know whether a student

18 reporting to the library in the absence of their

19 teacher and the rest of their class is supposed to

20 sign in or not?

21 A. Can you say that again?

22 Q. You don't know whether a student in

23 Karen's shoes, she's in the library, she doesn't have

24 her teacher, you, with her. She is not with her

1 class. You don't know whether she was required to

2 sign in or not, is that right?

3 A. I thought that the sign-in/sign-out was a

4 way to track students in the library. So no, I don't

5 know. But I assume that if Karen was supposed to be

6 there, she would have signed in. But she wasn't, so I

7 don't know why she would have tracked herself into the

8 library if she wasn't supposed to be there.

9 Q. So --

10 A. That's all I meant by that.

11 Q. So Karen was supposed to be in the library

12 at some point that period, was she not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And would you have expected her to sign in

15 upon reporting to the library under those

16 circumstances?

17 A. When the children go up to the library to

18 take a test, they have a pass. I don't know if they

19 sign in when they get there with Mrs. Thomas.

20 Q. You never looked into it?

21 A. No.

22 Q. But you think the signing in and signing

23 out is intended for what purpose?

24 A. I've always thought it had to do with

1 tracking the students, knowing when they were in the

2 library, when they weren't. I don't know though.

3 Q. What would the purpose be of tracking the

4 students as you understand it?

5 A. Well, we always like to know where the

6 students are. I honestly don't know. The only time

7 I'm in the library is with a class.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Karen did, in

9 fact, sign in on the day in question?

10 A. I don't. What I heard on the phone is that

11 she said "no" to Ann Marie. Who I thought was Karen

12 saying "no" to who I thought was Ann Marie.

13 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have anything

14 further at this time. Thank you.

15 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Any redirect?

16 MR. NORTH: No. All set.

17 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. You're excused.

18 MR. NORTH: Can we just take a quick

19 break?

20 MR. ARBITRATOR: Of course you can.

21 (Brief recess.)

22 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. We're back on the

23 record. The parties have asked that all witnesses be

24 sworn, so I'd ask that you raise your right hand.

1 (MARK HOLLIS, sworn.)

2 MR. ARBITRATOR: Could you state your name

3 for the record, please.

4 THE WITNESS: Mark Hollis. Do you want

5 a middle name?

6 MR. ARBITRATOR: No, that's fine. Okay.

7 MR. NORTH: All right.

9 ************

10 MARK HOLLIS

11 ************

13 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

14 Q. Mr. Hollis, how are you employed, sir?

15 A. I'm currently the principal at Attleboro.

16 Q. And for how long have you been in that

17 role?

18 A. Coming up on two years. December 19th of

19 '08.

20 Q. And prior to being principal at Attleboro

21 what roles did you fill?

22 A. I was a, working backwards, director of

23 curriculum and student assessment for about 5 years.

1 Prior to that, I was a health and physical education

2 teacher.

3 Q. And all told, how long have you been

4 employed at Attleboro?

5 A. Since 1992. In other various roles, also.

6 Q. And what is your educational background?

7 A. I hold a bachelor's degree from Bridgewater

8 State College in Massachusetts. That's in physical

9 education and health. And a master's degree in

10 educational leadership from Framingham State, now

11 University, was Framingham State College.

12 Q. And what was your -- did you have any

13 involvement in an incident in October of 2009

14 regarding Ann Marie Swenson?

15 A. In the actual incident or the --

16 Q. Or in any aspect of it?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. And when did you become aware of it or how

19 did you became aware of it?

20 A. Actually, the academic director, Shirley

21 Lepri, came to me approximately the next day,

22 October 30th or so, and informed me that there was an

23 incident with one of the classroom teachers, Monica

24 Harper and the librarian, Ann Marie

1 Swenson. And she had received a letter from Monica

2 to Shirley stating that there was an incident and that

3 she wanted me to be aware of it.

4 Q. Okay. And what happened next?

5 A. Well, I read the letter and was informed

6 that there was obviously an issue going on between the

7 two. And I informed Shirley that I'd be arranging a

8 meeting and I would meet with Ann Marie to discuss the

9 matter.

10 Q. Okay. I'm just going to show you District

11 Exhibit 1. Is that the letter that you're referring

12 to?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. And so what did you do to arrange that

15 meeting?

16 A. I believe I had my secretary contact Ann

17 Marie, inform her that we were going to have a meeting

18 to discuss the incident, inform her that she had a

19 right to representation and that I was going to invite

20 David Stock, the union president, to the

21 meeting.

22 Q. And --

23 A. And also I had Shirley Lepri, I told her

24 I'd like her to be there as a witness to take notes as

1 an administrator, also.

2 Q. And who is Shirley Lepri?

3 A. She's the director of academic programs at

4 Attleboro. She acts as a, like an assistant principal.

5 Q. So did you end up having that meeting?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. What happened at the meeting? Actually,

8 before you tell me that, who was present at the

9 meeting?

10 A. Present at that meeting, Shirley Lepri,

11 Ann Marie Swenson, Dave Stock and myself. It

12 took place in my office.

13 Q. Okay. What was Dave Stock there for?

14 A. Dave Stock is the Union President of

15 the local teacher's union in Attleboro and to act as a

16 representative on behalf of Ann Marie.

17 Q. Okay. So what did you do at the meeting?

18 A. Reviewed that letter that was written by

19 Monica to Shirley. Then I asked some questions about

20 whether the letter was accurate.

21 Q. Did you provide a copy of the letter?

22 A. To be honest, I don't recall.

23 Q. And then what was the discussion after

24 that?

1 A. Basically on how things proceeded. I know

2 there are some specific things in there about a phone

3 conversation and whether or not she had said the

4 things that Monica had written. Monica had written in

5 the letter that she overheard a conversation about the

6 student, and that Ann Marie would lie. And so I asked

7 her about that. And she said, I can remember she said

8 something along the lines of, "It's been a few days.

9 I don't recall saying that. I said 'I would cover for

10 you,' to the student."

11 Q. So that was what Ann Marie reported saying

12 to the student?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. What about on the question of whether the

15 student had signed in prior to her speaking to

16 Ms. Harper at the time?

17 A. She said something to the effect of, "I

18 didn't say that she signed in. I said that, you know,

19 she was there" or something, something like that. But

20 she had not had the student sign in but reported to

21 Monica that she had signed in already.

22 Q. All right. Did you write a letter to

23 Ms. Swenson to document that meeting?

24 A. I did, that afternoon. And I believe she

1 got it the following day. So it would have been the

2 beginning of November, I don't remember the exact

3 date, the 4th, the 5th, something like that. It was

4 around the beginning of November.

5 Q. What was around the beginning of November,

6 the meeting?

7 A. The meeting and the letter.

8 Q. All right. I'm going to show you what I've

9 marked as District Exhibit 2. It's a letter dated

10 November 16th. And do you recognize this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is it?

13 A. It's the letter that I wrote documenting,

14 the meeting was on the 5th of November, the beginning

15 of November. And this letter is actually dated the

16 16th.

17 Q. Okay. Did you write this letter?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And that is your signature at the bottom?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And in the letter you make some statements

22 of what occurred at the meeting. Is this -- was this

23 a true and accurate representation of your

24 recollection of the meeting at the time you wrote the

1 letter?

2 A. Yes, it is. I wrote the letter actually

3 that afternoon after we met.

4 MR. NORTH: I'd like to offer this as

5 District 2.

6 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any objections?

7 MS. MAHONEY: No. No objection.

8 MR. ARBITRATOR: So this is District 2.

9 (District Exhibit 2 marked.)

10 Q. All right. Now at the bottom of the letter

11 I note that it says, "If you disagree with my

12 characterization of our meeting, please let me know."

13 Do you see where it says that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And did you receive any response to that

16 from Ms. Swenson?

17 A. Yes, I did. I received a short note from

18 her, I would say, verifying that she did receive my

19 letter and that there was one particular, I don't

20 remember the exact date of her response, but --

21 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a memo dated

22 November 24, 2009.

23 A. Um-hum. Looks familiar.

24 MR. NORTH: I'd like to mark that as

1 District 3.

2 Q. Is that the --

3 MS. MAHONEY: Can we have a copy?

4 MR. NORTH: Sorry. (Hands over

5 document.)

6 Q. Is that the letter you received back from

7 Ms. Swenson?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 MR. NORTH: I'd like to offer D3.

10 MS. MAHONEY: No objection.

11 MR. ARBITRATOR: Entered as D3.

12 (District Exhibit 3 marked.)

13 Q. So after this, what did you do?

14 A. Well, after having the meeting with Ann

15 Marie and Dave and Shirley and after receiving this, I

16 then went to Superintendent Mary Jo Norton to have

17 discussion on the employee and the situation.

18 Q. Okay. Let me -- before we get to that, let

19 me ask you about the student. Is the student involved

20 one that you were familiar with?

21 A. Yes, very much so.

22 Q. And was there anything concerning about

23 this incident because of who the student was?

24 A. Well, she's a special ed student. She was

1 a high risk student in the fact that she missed a lot

2 of school. I don't know if we can get into details.

3 If you want me to --

4 Q. I don't want to necessarily put details

5 about the student, per se, in the record. But just in

6 general, why, relative to the incident, why was this

7 incident of concern because of the -- due to who the

8 student was?

9 A. She had a history of not being where she

10 was supposed to be. She was kind of a hallway roamer

11 type thing. She was, as far as student

12 accountability, she was not a model at all. She was

13 -- people were constantly having to check up on her,

14 where her whereabouts were in the building, because

15 she was a high-risk student.

16 Q. All right. So procedurally, what happened

17 next with regard to the issue with Ann Marie Swenson?

18 A. Well, after a conversation with the

19 superintendent, it was decided that at that point she

20 would take the case over and follow through with any

21 disciplinary action that was going to take place.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. NORTH: All right. No further

24 questions.

1 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Any cross-

2 examination?

3 MS. MAHONEY: Yes, thanks.

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hollis. My name is

7 Sheilah Mahoney and I'm Ann Marie Swenson's

8 attorney. I'll be asking you a few questions.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Just to be clear, you were not, as we

11 understand it, any kind of a percipient witness to the

12 events of October 29th, 2009, is that right?

13 A. By that you mean in the library when this

14 event took place?

15 Q. By that I mean you didn't see, hear or use

16 any of your other senses to perceive what took place

17 in the library on October 29th, 2009?

18 A. I would say that's correct.

19 Q. And isn't it true, Mr. Hollis, that in

20 summoning Ms. Swenson to your, to the meeting that

21 you had concerning this matter, you did not notify her

22 as to what the meeting was going to be about, isn't

23 that true?

24 A. I don't recall. I believe I had my

1 secretary contact her, as I do with -- or her with

2 other employees and say I would like to meet. I don't

3 recall the specifics, no.

4 Q. So you don't have any recollection of

5 instructing your secretary to tell Ms. Swenson that

6 it involved her conversation with Monica Harper on

7 October 29th, 2009, do you?

8 A. I don't believe it was that specific, no.

9 Q. Did it -- was it specific at all?

10 A. I don't recall.

11 Q. Okay. Would it be common practice for you

12 to ask your secretary to request somebody's presence

13 in your office with union representation and tell the

14 individual what the meeting was about?

15 A. She would say, "Mr. Hollis wants to meet

16 with you at 2:45 this afternoon and you have the right

17 to representation. He is going to invite the union

18 president, Mr. Stock.

19 Q. So that would be a common, the common

20 content of -- the typical content of a notice?

21 A. I would say so.

22 Q. And do you have any reason to believe that

23 the notice in this instance was any different?

24 A. I would say no. She's a very conscientious

1 and consistent person.

2 Q. You're referring to your secretary?

3 A. (Nods.)

4 Q. Is that a yes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was the notice that your secretary

7 conveyed on your behalf in writing?

8 A. I don't believe so. I believe it was a

9 phone conversation directly with Ms. Swenson.

10 Q. When was it given?

11 A. I don't recall the date.

12 Q. When was the meeting?

13 A. The meeting was, I believe, on November

14 5th.

15 Q. And what did you do after that meeting?

16 A. Can you elaborate?

17 Q. In reference to this matter, what did you

18 do after that meeting?

19 A. We closed the meeting. Um, all

20 participants left my office. I had asked

21 Mrs. Lepri to take notes on our conversation during

22 the meeting. She gave me the notes. I closed my

23 office door and then proceeded to write up the

24 proceedings of the meeting, I would say, probably

1 within minutes. It's possible I went to the

2 bathroom. I try to get those letters done immediately

3 following the meeting so there is no delay in my

4 getting the letter out.

5 Q. So the meeting was on November 5th, right?

6 A. Um-hum.

7 Q. And the document that's now in evidence as

8 District 2, am I right about that?

9 MR. NORTH: Yes.

10 Q. Is dated November 16th, 2009?

11 A. Um-hum.

12 Q. Is that right?

13 A. I believe so, yes.

14 Q. And yet you've testified you wrote it on

15 November 5th, is that right?

16 A. Correct. That afternoon.

17 Q. Okay. So what did you do between November

18 5th and November 16th in reference to this matter?

19 A. I had a conversation with Mrs. Norton,

20 the superintendent.

21 Q. So you had a conversation with

22 Superintendent Norton before you issued this

23 letter?

24 A. I believe so.

1 Q. Okay. I must have misunderstood your prior

2 testimony. Your conversations with her were before

3 you wrote -- before you finalized and signed this

4 letter, is that right?

5 A. I believe so, yes.

6 Q. Okay. You say you wrote it on November

7 5th. Did you make changes to it at anytime before you

8 finalized it, dated it and signed the document dated

9 November 16th?

10 A. It is possible. To go back and proofread

11 it, make grammatical changes, corrections.

12 Q. Did you make any changes based on your

13 conversations with the superintendent about this

14 matter?

15 A. I don't believe so, no.

16 Q. Did you keep notes of the meeting of

17 November 5th, 2009 yourself?

18 A. No, I didn't. Mrs. Lepri was taking

19 notes. And then -- those are the notes that I

20 referenced when I wrote the letter.

21 Q. And did you provide Ms. Swenson with a

22 copy of those notes?

23 A. I don't believe so.

24 Q. Are you aware of anybody providing

1 Ms. Swenson with a copy of those notes?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And what did you do with those notes?

4 A. They were in a folder in my office. And I

5 know at one point I believe I gave a copy to Attorney

6 North.

7 Q. And the notes purport to be an accurate

8 summary or a contemporaneous record of what was said

9 during the November 5th meeting in your office?

10 A. There was a record of actual quotes and

11 there was reference by initials. So if it was myself

12 speaking, it would be "MH said" and so forth. "AS,"

13 Ann Marie Swenson, and so forth. Mr. Stock, I

14 believe made one, stated a question, so it was "DS."

15 It was all labeled.

16 Q. And did you have a file specifically, a

17 file folder on this matter, in other words, the matter

18 of Monica Harper and Ann Marie Swenson, of October

19 29, 2009?

20 A. I did maintain a folder of that, yes.

21 Q. Do you still have it?

22 A. Yes, I do. I don't have it with me today.

23 It's locked in my office, but I do have that folder.

24 Q. What else is in it?

1 A. I believe there is some other information

2 regarding other incidents that I was involved with

3 with Ann Marie.

4 Q. So the folder isn't related exclusively to

5 the events of October 29th, 2009, is that right?

6 A. I would say no, it probably contains other

7 information.

8 Q. It's a folder that relates to Ms. Swenson

9 in general. And do you make copies of the documents

10 and put them in her personnel record?

11 A. Or if they're a copy of a letter such as

12 that I wrote which, it said "CC, personnel file" those

13 are the ones that you maintain in the personnel

14 record.

15 Q. Have you told, have you ever told

16 Ms. Swenson that you maintain a file on her?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you aware that she has asked to see her

19 personnel file on more than one occasion?

20 A. I'm not aware of that. She can make that

21 request, I believe, through the personnel office.

22 Q. When was your meeting with the

23 superintendent following your November 5th, 2009

24 meeting?

1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was

2 between the time of the meeting and the time of the

3 letter being issued.

4 Q. Was it just you and the superintendent at

5 this meeting?

6 A. I believe so, yes.

7 Q. Did you take notes?

8 A. I don't recall. I don't think so.

9 Q. What did you say at the meeting?

10 A. I explained the situation, what had

11 happened, to the best of my knowledge, based on the

12 conversation that I had with Ms. Swenson in the

13 meeting and also based on the events that were

14 recorded by Ms. Harper, or Ms. Harper, now she's

15 Mrs. Harper. And I believe we talked about the

16 severity of it, the issue of mistrust. And at that

17 point it was decided Ms. Norton would handle the

18 case from there.

19 Q. So on some unknown, unspecified date

20 between November 5th, 2009 and November 16th, 2009, in

21 a meeting with the superintendent it was determined

22 that the superintendent would handle the matter from

23 there, wherever "there" is, is that right?

24 A. Yes.

1 Q. And what does "handle" mean?

2 A. That if there was to be any disciplinary

3 action, meetings after that, I know that at some point

4 Attorney North was notified. So if there was going

5 to be legal counsel, um, involvement, things like

6 that, that it would be handled at the superintendent's

7 level.

8 Q. And what contact did you have with

9 Ms. Swenson after November 5th, or rather after

10 conveying the November 16th, 2009 letter to her?

11 A. I believe the letter was hand delivered by

12 my secretary to her.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Can you repeat that?

15 Q. Did you have any other contact with

16 Ms. Swenson concerning this matter after the November

17 5th meeting, any personal contact?

18 A. Well, I see her a couple times a week, but

19 nothing like discussion.

20 Q. Concerning this matter.

21 A. I've seen her in the hallways. I've seen

22 her in the library.

23 Q. No. My question was, did you have any

24 contact, interaction with Ms. Swenson?

1 A. Regarding this?

2 Q. Concerning the October 29th matter after

3 November 5th.

4 A. I don't believe so.

5 Q. Okay. It's true, isn't it, that in your

6 letter of November 16th, you instruct Ms. Swenson not

7 to speak to Ms. Harper, now Ms. Harper, about the

8 situation until after, quote, "I have completed my

9 investigation and interviews," is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You recall writing that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And so at the time that you signed this

14 letter dated November 16th, 2009, was your

15 investigation ongoing or was it complete?

16 A. Well, I still had information from, after

17 that meeting on the 5th that I wanted to follow up. I

18 wanted to talk to the student, the student in

19 question, Karen. I also wanted to talk to

20 Ms. Harper.

21 Q. My question was whether or not you, at the

22 time that you signed this document which is dated

23 November 16, 2009, you had not yet completed your

24 investigation and interviews? Yes or no.

1 MR. NORTH: I'm going to object to that

2 as a yes or no question.

3 Q. Okay. Let me ask you again. Let me try

4 this one more time. Okay?

5 On November 16, 2009, did you sign this letter?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Okay. On November 16th, 2009, had you

8 completed your investigation and interviews in this

9 matter?

10 A. I believe so, yes.

11 Q. Okay. So you signed the letter in which

12 you've instructed Ms. Swenson not to speak to

13 Ms. Harper about the situation "until after I have

14 completed my investigation and interviews," is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you had, at the time that you signed

18 this letter, completed your investigation and

19 interviews, isn't that right? Yes or no.

20 A. Well --

21 Q. Yes?

22 A. I'm a little confused on how you're asking

23 the question, but I will have to say yes, I guess.

24 Q. Okay. In fact, when you met with the

1 superintendent on some unspecified date between

2 November 5th, 2009 and November 16th, 2009, you had

3 completed your interviews and investigation, isn't

4 that right?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. So sometime before you signed this letter,

7 your interview -- your investigation and interviews

8 were complete?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And did you at any point, either

11 orally or in writing, have further contact with

12 Ms. Swenson concerning the events of October 29, 2005

13 -- 2009? October 29, 2009. Sorry. Lots of dates

14 flying around here. Do you need me to repeat it?

15 A. Well, you just said November 16th and the

16 29th of October.

17 Q. I'm sorry. My question was, did you have

18 any contact with Ms. Swenson at any point after you

19 wrote this letter and signed it on November 16th,

20 2009?

21 A. I would say no, in regards to that matter.

22 Q. Right. Okay. And so you never got in

23 touch with her and said, "My investigation and

24 interviews are complete," did you?

1 A. I don't believe so.

2 Q. And you never said, "I've handed the matter

3 over to the superintendent"?

4 A. No, I did not say that, no.

5 Q. But you did get the follow-up document that

6 Ms. Swenson submitted to you dated November 24, 2009,

7 right? It's in evidence as District 3?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So what did your investigation

10 entail, who did you interview?

11 A. I talked to Karen, who was the

12 student involved.

13 Q. When did you do that?

14 A. Following our meeting on the 5th. And I

15 believe it was the next morning, probably November 6th

16 or so. I don't recall the exact date, but it was

17 within a day or so of the meeting I had with

18 Ms. Swenson.

19 Q. And who else did you talk to?

20 A. I talked to Monica again in regards to the

21 matter.

22 Q. You had already talked to her regarding

23 this matter before?

24 A. I talked to her once before on the, it

1 happened on the 29th. I believe I talked to her

2 either on the 30th or -- I remember it was like a 7:30

3 meeting either the 30th or the 31st. It was within a

4 day or so of her giving the letter to Shirley,

5 Mrs. Lepri.

6 Q. 7:30 a.m.?

7 A. Yes. 7:30 in the morning. She came down

8 to my office and said, "Do you have a few minutes to

9 speak?" I said "yes." She said, "This is in regards

10 to a matter that I've written a letter to

11 Mrs. Lepri" and she actually had the letter, but I

12 had already received a copy of it.

13 Q. So she reached out to you. You didn't ask

14 her to come to your office?

15 A. Correct. I intended to speak to her

16 because I had possession of the letter from

17 Mrs. Lepri, but she seemed very upset about it and

18 had sought me out that morning.

19 Q. Who is her mentor?

20 A. I believe it was Joyce Smith. Mrs. Smith

21 is a math teacher at Attleboro. I believe it was

22 Mrs. Smith.

23 Q. So what did Ms. Harper say to you during

24 this 7:30 a.m. meeting?

1 A. She basically recapped what she had written

2 and said that she was, she felt disrespected by

3 Ms. Swenson, by her actions of saying "I'll lie,"

4 felt it was unprofessional. She was concerned about

5 her future relations with Ms. Swenson and the

6 distrust. She was a relatively new teacher at Attleboro

7 so she was worried about that, her, Ms. Swenson being

8 a veteran and Monica being a newer teacher. She also

9 had concerns of Karen, the student in

10 question, who was a special ed student and her

11 progress in the class or -- just her making progress

12 in the class, basically.

13 Q. So concerns about Karen making progress in

14 the class, did that part of the discussion involve

15 Ms. Swenson?

16 A. No, I don't believe so.

17 Q. Ms. Swenson doesn't have any

18 responsibility for whether or not Karen is making

19 progress in Ms. Harper' class, does she?

20 A. No, unless she was asked to assist in some

21 way.

22 Q. And are you aware of any such request for

23 assistance?

24 A. No, not at all. I was just going to give

1 you a recap of what happened.

2 Q. No. I just wanted -- and I appreciate

3 that. I just wanted clarification to make sure that

4 that part of the conversation didn't relate to

5 Ms. Swenson in some way that I was unaware of.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. So she -- what did you say during that

8 meeting, that 7:30 a.m. meeting?

9 A. I just asked, I recall asking her a few

10 questions about why she felt -- what was her feeling

11 at the time about the whole situation, how could it

12 have been handled differently. And was this a normal

13 situation where she would be having students at some

14 point report to the library to have assistance. And

15 she did recall that Karen had gone to the library

16 before to receive assistance from Mrs. Thomas, who

17 is a special ed teacher, who is a liaison for the

18 science department. She is a consultant. They have

19 one special ed teacher for multiple science teachers.

20 Q. Had you read the letter before she appeared

21 in your office at 7:30 in the morning?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you were aware of the allegations before

24 she sat down in your office for the first time, is

1 that right?

2 A. Yes, I had read through the letter and

3 intended to speak with her, but she came to my office

4 prior to me getting to her.

5 Q. And your recollection is that you asked her

6 what her feelings were and how it could be handled

7 differently?

8 A. I did have a conversation with her about

9 that.

10 Q. Did you have conversation with her about

11 anything else, have any other questions for her?

12 A. I don't believe so.

13 Q. Who else did you talk to?

14 A. I talked to Karen. I talked to Monica.

15 Q. Wait. Okay. Did you say "after Karen, I

16 talked to Monica"?

17 A. No. I said "I talked to Karen. I talked

18 to Monica." Karen, I talked to after the meeting

19 with Ann Marie. That meeting with Karen, the

20 student, was after I talked to Ann Marie.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Because she wasn't in school. And there

23 was a number of days where -- she was not in school on

24 a number of days.

1 Q. So if I understand the sequence correctly,

2 you got the letter written by Ms. Harper, now Harper,

3 from Ms. Lepri.

4 A. Yup.

5 Q. You had a meeting, not by your own

6 initiative, but by Ms. Harper, at 7:30 in the

7 morning on either the 30th or 31st of October, is that

8 right?

9 A. Yup.

10 Q. And then you had a meeting with my client,

11 Ms. Swenson, who wasn't my client yet, on November

12 5th, 2009, is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then after the meeting of November 5th,

15 2009 with my client, you wrote up your letter, which

16 is dated November 16th and then sat down again with

17 Ms. Harper or what was the sequence? Was it Karen

18 and then your second meeting with Ms. Harper or was

19 it Ms. Harper and then Karen?

20 A. It was Ms. Harper, the meeting with Ann

21 Marie. I spoke to the student, Karen. And my

22 follow-up meeting with Monica was that the situation

23 is being handled administratively and that I tried to

24 reassure her at the time that it was no reflection --

1 because she was nervous about, as I said, the future

2 relationship with Ann Marie and whether it was going

3 to be, I don't believe she said retaliation, but she

4 was nervous about her status as a teacher with the

5 school, veteran teacher, new teacher to the district,

6 if there was going to be a future tension because she

7 knew she would have to deal with the librarian at some

8 point as a teacher in the building.

9 Q. So your meeting with Ms. -- your second

10 meeting with Ms. Harper about this really wasn't about

11 the incident so much as telling her how it was going

12 to be handled?

13 A. Correct. I said, "The administrators will

14 handle this. I don't want you to feel that, you know,

15 as a new teacher you don't need to be nervous about

16 being in the building or having future dealings with

17 the librarian," because she was nervous about it.

18 Q. So you reassured her that she didn't need

19 to be nervous?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's a good summary.

23 Q. And you didn't discuss the substance of her

24 allegations in any way, is that right?

1 A. No. And I did not talk about the meeting

2 with Ann Marie.

3 Q. Okay. So you didn't go back to her with

4 questions that had arisen in your mind after talking

5 with Ann Marie about this matter?

6 A. No, we had no further questions. It was,

7 in a sense, kind of going full circle and just

8 wrapping it up with her saying that at this point it

9 would be handled by the administration.

10 Q. Did Ms. Harper provide you with any further

11 written statements concerning the events of October

12 29th, 2009 beyond the letter?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did the student provide you with a written

15 statement?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When was your meeting with the student?

18 A. I believe it was the day after our meeting

19 on November 5th. So it was probably November 6th.

20 Q. When this matter was handed to you, did you

21 develop a plan for how to proceed with an

22 investigation before you proceeded with the

23 investigation?

24 A. Well, did I develop a formal plan or --

1 Q. Any kind of plan.

2 A. I certainly did. I don't believe I wrote

3 it down, but I had a process that I was going to take

4 steps in following through.

5 Q. And what was the process?

6 A. The process was to follow up on the letter

7 and have a meeting with Ms. Harper, which happened

8 before I had planned it or scheduled it. To have a

9 conversation with Ms. Swenson, ask some questions of

10 her in the matter. And then to talk to other

11 witnesses, certainly the student. And then from that

12 point, to have some discussion with my

13 superintendent. And then if there was grounds to go

14 forward with some kind of consequence, then that

15 consequence would be issued.

16 Q. And so other than Ms. Harper,

17 Ms. Swenson and the student, who else did you

18 interview?

19 A. Interview?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I don't believe I did anyone else.

22 Q. You didn't interview Ms. Thomas?

23 A. I had no conversation with Ms. Thomas

24 about this matter.

1 Q. You didn't interview Ms. Lanier?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you

4 retained whatever material you had compiled in the

5 context of your investigation?

6 A. Some handwritten notes and things like

7 that, yes.

8 Q. You didn't give them to the superintendent?

9 A. I believe the only time I gave copies of

10 that was after Attorney North had requested papers

11 and things like that, whatever was related.

12 Q. And what were there for papers?

13 A. There was handwritten notes from

14 Mrs. Lepri on our meeting on November 5th, there

15 were handwritten notes that I took when talking to

16 Monica, Ms. Harper.

17 Q. You mean on October 30th or 31st?

18 A. That morning, yes. Then there were

19 handwritten notes that I took when I talked to the

20 student, Karen.

21 Q. Anything else?

22 A. I don't believe so.

23 Q. And when you sat down with the

24 superintendent, you didn't provide her with any

1 written report of any kind on this matter?

2 A. No. It was conversation. We meet on a

3 regular basis to discuss school matters all the time.

4 So no.

5 Q. And did the superintendent indicate to you

6 any plans she had once the matter was in her, on her

7 desk, so to speak?

8 A. I don't believe so. Any, like, future

9 action to be taken, things like that?

10 Q. Right.

11 A. She did not indicate that to me.

12 Q. And you took no further action upon

13 receiving Ms. Swenson's November 24th, 2004 letter,

14 is that right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. You didn't talk to Donna Thomas. We're

17 clear about that, right?

18 A. I don't believe I ever had a conversation

19 with her, no, not in regards to this matter. I talk

20 to Donna all the time, but not in regards to this

21 matter.

22 Q. Okay.

3 MS. MAHONEY: I'm all set. I don't have any further

5 questions.

6 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any redirect, Attorney

7 North?

8 MR. NORTH: Yes.

10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

11 Q. Going back to the notice of the November

12 5th meeting.

13 A. The one that I wrote?

14 Q. No. The meeting that you had on November

15 5th.

16 A. Um-hum.

17 Q. Prior to that meeting, did anyone ask you

18 what the meeting was going to be about?

19 A. I don't believe so, no. You mean like

20 Shirley or things like that?

21 Q. Or Ann Marie Swenson or Dave Stock.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now regarding the various handwritten

24 notes, when you turned those over to me, are you

1 referring to the documents you turned over to me last

2 week in preparation for this hearing?

3 A. I believe it was before last week.

4 Q. Okay. Prior to that, did you retain them

5 as your personal notes in your file?

6 A. Yes. They're in my office, locked.

7 Q. All right.

8 MR. NORTH: Nothing further.

9 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any recross-examination?

10 Anything further, Attorney Mahoney?

11 MS. MAHONEY: I have to confess that I

12 was consulting with my client when the witness

13 answered the first question that counsel asked. Would

14 it be a terrible imposition to ask either the

15 stenographer to read it back or for me to just pose

16 the question again?

17 MR. NORTH: We can have it read back.

18 (Question and answer read.)

19 MS. MAHONEY: I just have one

20 question. Thank you.

22 RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

23 Q. Mr. Hollis, do you, and forgive me if

24 you've answered this question already, but do you know

1 what day the notice of the meeting was given?

2 A. I don't. I don't recall. I just asked my

3 secretary to contact Ms. Swenson and notify her of my

4 intent to have a meeting and to please attend. I

5 don't recall the exact day.

6 Q. Would it have been -- the notice would have

7 specified a time to be in your office, a date and a

8 time to be in your office?

9 A. Yes, it would be in my office on November

10 5th at 2:45. Typically, I hold meetings with teachers

11 after school or at the close of school so we're not

12 impacting, unless Mr. Stock or the teacher said,

13 "Well, I have last period off, can we meet then" or "I

14 have a doctor's appointment after school, can we meet

15 prior to the end of school?" And so I don't recall if

16 that was the case, if there was something else going

17 on that we had to rearrange the meeting earlier. But

18 typically I do not meet with teachers until after the

19 close of the day, because it usually impacts their

20 schedule and things like that. So I don't recall the

21 exact time that we met, but it was in the afternoon.

22 Q. And you don't remember what date you

23 notified Ms. Swenson that you would want to be

24 meeting with her?

1 A. I don't. I'm sorry, but I don't.

2 Q. If the letter dated -- the letter that's in

3 evidence as District 2 indicates that the meeting was

4 held on November 5th, 2009 at 1:45 p.m. Do you have

5 an issue with that?

6 A. No. If it says "1:45," it happened at

7 1:45. Like I said, typically they're at, we close

8 school at 2:40 or the last period ends at 2:40, and

9 then I would meet with staff members. But for this

10 case maybe, Mr. Stock, he's the representative

11 for the union or the union President, he may have

12 requested -- and I don't recall, but this has

13 happened. "I have last period off, can we meet prior

14 to that?" Or "I have," you know, "a personal

15 appointment or obligation after school, can we meet

16 prior to the end of school?" And if it's -- and if I

17 can fit it in my schedule, I will try to meet with

18 them prior to that. But typically it's after school.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Does that help?

21 MS. MAHONEY: Thank you. More than

22 helpful.

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Thank you for your

24 testimony.

1 Any other witnesses on the District's

2 side?

3 MR. NORTH: Yup. I'm going to call the

4 superintendent. I just want to take a quick break

5 before we do that. What are we going to do in terms

6 of a break?

7 MR. ARBITRATOR: It's the parties'

8 preference.

9 MR. NORTH: Do you want to go through

10 or --

11 MS. MAHONEY: Well, particularly in

12 light of the fact that my client is seeing this letter

13 for the first time, I would like to take a break

14 between the cases. So, um, you know, that's my

15 request. If people -- I don't know how -- so I would

16 say if you're putting the superintendent on next that

17 we, you know, get through her testimony and then take

18 a lunch break.

19 MR. NORTH: That's fine.

20 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sounds good.

21 MR. NORTH: Could I just have a few

22 minutes?

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sure.

24 (Off the record.)

1 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Mrs. Norton, I

2 believe you've already been sworn in. So whenever

3 Attorney North is ready.

5 ****************

6 MARY JO NORTON

7 ****************

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

10 Q. How are you employed?

11 A. As superintendent director.

12 Q. And that's of Attleboro?

13 A. High School and vocational school

14 district.

15 Q. And how long have you been in that

16 position?

17 A. It will be 2 years on December 19th of this

18 year.

19 Q. And prior to that, could you just talk

20 about your history with Attleboro?

21 A. Prior to superintendent I was principal for

22 5 years, director of curriculum for 2 years and a

23 health and physical education teacher since, from 1975

24 up until that point in time. I've been with the

1 district for 35 years.

2 Q. And what is your educational background?

3 A. I have a bachelor of science degree from

4 Penn State University and a master's of

5 education degree from RI University.

6 Q. Now this issue regarding Ann Marie

7 Swenson, when did you first become, have some

8 involvement or knowledge of it?

9 A. The principal met with me mid to late

10 November to inform me about the incident.

11 Q. And what happened as a result of that

12 meeting?

13 A. As a result of the meeting, when he briefly

14 described the situation, I said, I called him Mark. I

15 said "Mark, I will handle the situation at this level

16 because we are dealing -- because it is serious. And

17 the employee, Ms. Swenson, has had two previous

18 suspensions and several reprimands."

19 Q. Okay. So what did you do, you know, in

20 order to handle the matter?

21 A. Basically what I did is, I got, um,

22 Ms. Swenson's personnel file, spoke to Mr. Hollis

23 about the situation, reviewed the information, and

24 decided that it was important to contact legal

100

1 counsel, that's Attorney North. And I did contact

2 legal counsel concerning the situation.

3 Q. Did you -- at some point did you meet with

4 -- did you call a meeting with Ann Marie Swenson

5 regarding the matter?

6 A. Yes, I did. I didn't -- yes, I did.

7 Q. And when did you meet with her?

8 A. I met with her on March -- I believe it was

9 March 15th.

10 Q. And what was going on in the district

11 between the time you found out about this and March

12 when you met with Ms. Swenson?

13 A. Basically what had happened, being a

14 regional school district, we're working on budget.

15 And during the December, January, well, December to

16 March time frame, we had been informed that our

17 regional transportation had been cut by another 10

18 percent. We were dealing with some very serious

19 financial issues at that particular point in time.

20 Q. All right. And what did those issues

21 require you to do?

22 A. Those issues required us to go back and

23 review our preliminary budget. We have to present our

24 budget to 7 different towns, which is approximately a

101

1 minimum of 21 different meetings with town officials

2 and finance boards. So we had to go back and actually

3 work our assessments for our districts and make

4 reductions in the budget that we had originally

5 proposed.

6 Q. Okay. And what other issues were going on

7 at that same time requiring out-of-building meetings?

8 A. Simultaneously, we were informed that we

9 had been approved for our Massachusetts school

10 building authority project, and that required us to

11 assemble a school building committee team. When I say

12 "us," I'm talking about our assistant superintendent,

13 who worked with me on all of these.

14 He works with me on these particular issues or

15 situations in the school.

16 So what we had determined to do is include

17 members from all 7 districts on our school building

18 committee, which required interviews and

19 notifications. So we were working on that project and

20 working on assembling the team, getting approval from

21 MSBA on that particular building committee and then

22 working to secure an RFP for a project manager.

23 Q. Okay. Did that require additional meetings

24 with the towns?

102

1 A. Absolutely, it required at least, at a

2 minimum, 12 to 14 additional meetings.

3 Q. What impact do those events have on day-to-

4 day operational issues in the district?

5 A. It had a significant impact on our day-to-

6 day operations.

7 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to show you some

8 documents. First of all, I'm going to show you what

9 I've marked as District 4. Can you tell me what that

10 is?

11 A. That is a notification to Ms. Swenson that

12 a meeting was scheduled with her and

13 our assistant superintendent. I know at the top of

14 the paper it says "director of business operations,"

15 but his title has changed, and myself. It was in

16 regard to her employment status.

17 Q. Okay. And then I'm going to show you --

18 MS. MAHONEY: Is this in? I don't

19 object.

20 MR. NORTH: Yeah.

21 MR. ARBITRATOR: So this would be?

22 MR. NORTH: D4.

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: D4.

24 (District Exhibit 4 marked.)

103

1 MR. NORTH: All right.

2 Q. And the next one we have to mark as D5.

3 What is that?

4 A. My assistant inadvertently had put the

5 wrong date down and this corrected it.

6 Q. So the meeting was Monday, March 15th?

7 A. It was Monday, March 15th. She had

8 inadvertently put down Monday, March 16th.

9 Q. So what happened at that meeting?

10 A. At the meeting, I began the meeting by

11 explaining to Ms. Swenson that the purpose of the

12 meeting was to inform her of my intent to impose a

13 20-day suspension in regard to the situation that had

14 occurred on October 29th. And I reviewed that

15 situation. I reviewed that situation with her. I

16 read the letter from Ms. Harper at that meeting.

17 And then I --

18 Q. Did you give her a letter?

19 A. Yes, I did give her a letter.

20 MR. NORTH: Could we mark that as D6.

21 Q. And is that the letter?

22 A. (Looks.) Yes, it is.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. NORTH: I offer D5 and D6.

104

1 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have any

2 objection.

3 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. We'll submit it as

4 such.

5 (District Exhibits 5 and 6 marked.)

6 Q. Showing you another letter, D7. And what

7 is this?

8 A. The union had requested a meeting and the

9 union president, David Stock, wanted to verify

10 that the meeting that they were requesting was

11 intended as a pre disciplinary meeting.

12 Q. Okay. So there was a meeting on March 15th

13 at which you gave Ann Marie Swenson the letter dated

14 March 15th?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then what happened after that, why was

17 there another meeting?

18 A. There was another meeting because at that

19 meeting on March 15th, I did offer up an opportunity

20 to come to some kind of an agreement in regards to the

21 intent to impose a 20-day suspension.

22 Q. Okay. So without talking about the details

23 of that discussion, so was there then a discussion

24 that put things on hold at that point?

105

1 A. Yes. What I had said is, I did not have a

2 copy of the agreement at that time, I had it within

3 the next week. I gave that agreement to Ms. Swenson,

4 the union president, they did have it. And then he

5 had asked that they have a pre disciplinary meeting

6 with me.

7 Q. Okay. So then was that essentially a redo

8 of the process on April 8th?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. So this letter was the letter

11 requesting that meeting?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 MR. NORTH: I offer D7.

14 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any objection?

15 MS. MAHONEY: No.

16 MR. ARBITRATOR: Submitted as D7.

17 (District Exhibit 7 marked.)

18 Q. And so did you, in fact, meet on April 8th?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened at that meeting?

21 A. At that meeting, again, we reviewed the

22 situation as it had occurred, briefly discussed the

23 agreement, and the meeting concluded.

24 Q. Okay. And I'm going to show you what I'll

106

1 mark as D8.

2 A. (Looks.)

3 Q. And I'm going to represent that I've

4 redacted a sentence here that dealt with a settlement

5 discussion. I feel it was inappropriate to put in.

6 And I'm happy to show you an unredacted letter if you

7 want.

8 MS. MAHONEY: Are you talking to me?

9 MR. NORTH: Yeah. I'm sure you've seen

10 it.

11 Q. Okay. So a letter I've marked D8 is in

12 front of you. And is that a letter that you wrote to

13 Ms. Swenson?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. And when did you write that?

16 A. I wrote it anytime between April 9th and

17 the day it was delivered. I don't know if I wrote it

18 on the 9th, the 10th, but I wrote it between that time

19 period.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any objection to this?

22 MS. MAHONEY: I mean, no. It's part of

23 the history.

24 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Submitted at D8.

107

1 (District Exhibit 8 marked.)

2 Q. And I'm going to give you D9. What is

3 this?

4 A. This is a response from Ms. Swenson

5 appealing the 20-day suspension.

6 MR. NORTH: I'd offer D9.

7 MR. ARBITRATOR: Hearing no objection, D9.

8 (District Exhibit 9 marked.)

9 Q. Here's D10.

10 A. (Looks.)

11 Q. Okay. Is this a letter that you wrote to

12 Ms. Swenson?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Scheduling a hearing on May 5th?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Hearing no

17 objection, D10.

18 (District Exhibit 10 marked.)

19 Q. So on April 12th, did you also issue a

20 further letter that's been marked as Joint Exhibit 5?

21 A. Yes. This is the actual suspension

22 letter. Yes, I did.

23 Q. All right. So what happened on May -- so

24 you scheduled a meeting for May 5th by the letters

108

1 that -- or the letter that I just showed you earlier.

2 What happened on May 5th?

3 A. On May 5th I walked into the meeting, had a

4 seat. Ms. Swenson, I believe, was already seated in

5 my conference room. Mr. Collins also walked into the

6 meeting. My assistant superintendent and Ms. Swenson

7 informed me that she had a letter for me from her

8 attorney. I took the letter and that was the end of

9 the meeting -- and I opened the letter, I read the

10 letter, and it was just that she was retaining an

11 attorney at that particular point in time.

12 MR. NORTH: D11. I'll represent that

13 this is also redacted in the last paragraph to remove

14 any settlement-related information.

15 I'll offer D11.

16 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any objection?

17 MS. MAHONEY: None.

18 MR. ARBITRATOR: Hearing no objections,

19 D11.

20 (District Exhibit 11 marked.)

21 Q. Okay. So after presenting you with the

22 attorney's letter, did Ms. Swenson present you with

23 any other information at that meeting?

24 A. No.

109

1 Q. And then what happened after that?

2 A. After that, I spoke with Attorney North.

3 And then my understanding was that it was in the hands

4 of the attorneys, that you would be speaking with --

5 you said you would be speaking with Attorney

6 Mahoney. That was May, June, July, I believe there

7 were conversations. On July 20th, prior to July 20th,

8 I spoke with Attorney North and indicated that I

9 wanted to go forward and impose the 20-day

10 suspension. So I did write a letter. I did impose

11 the 20-day suspension which began on September 13th

12 and ended, I believe, on October 12th.

13 Q. Okay. I show you D12.

14 A. (Looks.)

15 MR. NORTH: And I offer it.

16 Q. So D12, is that the letter you just

17 referred to?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 MR. NORTH: I offer D 12.

20 MR. ARBITRATOR: Hearing no objection.

21 MS. MAHONEY: I'm sorry, let me get

22 caught up here.

23 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sure.

24 (Pause.)

110

1 MR. ARBITRATOR: Hearing no objection, D12

2 is submitted.

3 (District Exhibit 12 marked.)

4 Q. All right. Now you testified earlier that

5 you had referred to Ms. Swenson's personnel file

6 regarding prior discipline. Did she have prior

7 discipline?

8 A. Yes, she did.

9 Q. And what role did that play in your

10 consideration of what to do in this matter?

11 A. I took into account that I had an employee

12 who had been suspended two times prior to this

13 particular incident.

14 Q. Okay. Let me go through those documents.

15 I'm going to show you D13. And what is this?

16 A. This is a document from or a letter from

17 Principal Hollis to Ms. Swenson indicating that

18 there was going to be a five-day suspension for

19 insubordination.

111

112

1 Q. And I'm going to show you District 14.

2 A. (Looks.)

3 Q. And what is District 14?

4 A. This is a letter from the principal

5 informing Ms. Swenson that she was being suspended

6 for three days for insubordination.

7 MR. NORTH: Offer D14.

8 MR. ARBITRATOR: Hearing no objection, it's

9 submitted as D14.

113

1 Q. All right. So why did you impose a 20-day

2 suspension in this case?

3 A. I imposed the 20-day suspension because I

4 have an employee with two prior suspensions, both of

5 which, I believe, were of a serious nature. And I

6 felt this was also of a very serious nature. And I

7 also believe it's a pattern of behavior. And it's a

8 pattern of behavior that I would not expect from any

9 employee in our school district.

10 Q. And why is the misconduct in this instance

11 serious misconduct? Why do you consider it to be

12 serious misconduct?

13 A. I consider it to be serious because it

14 basically impacted staff and students.

15 Q. What do you mean by that?

16 A. We all work as colleagues. The expectation

17 is that we are there for the students. It's important

18 for us to be positive role models at all times. And I

114

1 would expect that my staff would behave in a manner

2 that is positive, which is appropriate and models for

3 our students that if you make a mistake, then admit

4 it, own up to it, and move on. I don't expect

5 employees to betray, colleagues to betray one

6 another. I don't expect students to be present, to

7 observe that kind of behavior. It's not the kind of

8 behavior that we would want them to model or we would

9 want them to think is acceptable.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. NORTH: No further questions.

12 MR. ARBITRATOR: Thank you. Cross-

13 examination?

14 MS. MAHONEY: Thank you. I need just a

15 second.

16 (Off the record.)

18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

19 Q. I need to clarify something. You've been

20 here while I've introduced myself to the other

21 witnesses so I assume you know who I am.

22 Good afternoon. It's official. I just wanted to

23 show you a document that I guess we'll call Swenson 1

24 and ask you, isn't it true, Superintendent Norton,

115

1 that Ms. Swenson gave you that document at the same

2 time that she gave you what is now in evidence as

3 District 11, a letter from me dated May 5, 2010?

4 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that? You're

5 asking if I had this given to me at the same time?

6 Q. Yes. Isn't it true that she -- you

7 testified when Mr. North was asking you questions

8 that Ms. Swenson presented you with no other

9 information at the meeting on May 5, 2010 other than

10 the letter from me to you which is now in evidence as

11 District 11?

12 A. Yes, I do have this letter.

13 Q. Well, my question isn't do you have it, my

14 question is, isn't it true that she also gave you that

15 on May 5, 2010?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, it was basically attached to it,

18 wasn't it?

19 A. It was a very fat envelope. I clearly

20 remember that.

21 Q. So that's not an issue?

22 A. No, it's not.

23 Q. You didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't

24 given to you?

116

1 A. No, absolutely not.

2 Q. So you were in possession of this request

3 for information dated May 5, 2010 and signed by Ann

4 Marie Swenson addressed to you as of May 5, 2010, is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MS. MAHONEY: So I'll move that into

9 evidence as Swenson 1.

10 MR. NORTH: No objection.

11 MR. ARBITRATOR: Swenson 1 submitted.

12 (Swenson Exhibit 1 marked.)

13 Q. Okay. So now that we have that clarified,

14 um, you were not a witness to the events of October

15 29, 2009, right?

16 A. No, I was not present.

17 Q. And did you, in looking at the matter from

18 the perspective that you looked at it, did you come to

19 be aware of who was present, who the percipient

20 witnesses of the day were?

21 A. Based on the information I received.

22 Q. Yes, you did?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who were they?

117

1 A. The persons involved, that's how I would

2 clarify it, would be Mrs. Harper, Ms. Swenson, the

3 student.

4 Q. Is that it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you've identified those individuals as

7 the persons involved?

8 A. Um-hum.

9 Q. Is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And I've asked you if you came to be aware

12 of who the percipient witnesses were. Do you recall

13 that question?

14 A. I recall the question.

15 Q. And so I guess I'll ask it again. Did you

16 come to have an understanding of who the percipient

17 witnesses were of the events of October 29, 2009?

18 A. I would call those persons the percipient

19 witnesses. The people that were involved in the

20 situation.

21 Q. So you were not interested in talking with

22 other people who may have witnessed the event, is that

23 right, do I understand your correctly?

24 A. I was not aware that other people witnessed

118

1 the events.

2 Q. So you didn't review Ms. Swenson's

3 November 24, 2009 letter?

4 A. Yes, I did read it.

5 Q. Isn't it true that that letter says, refers

6 Mr. Hollis to Ms. Thomas?

7 A. I do not believe it directly refers him to

8 Ms. Thomas.

9 Q. Doesn't it say, "Ms. Thomas could tell

10 you what I'm telling you, she could confirm what I'm

11 telling you"?

12 A. I don't recall.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have -- is there anything --

14 strike that.

15 Do I understand then, that you didn't inquire as

16 to whether or not there were any other people in the

17 library on October 29th, 2009 who could tell you what

18 happened that day?

19 A. No, I didn't inquire as to if there were

20 any other people in the library.

21 Q. You were only interested in Ms. Swenson's

22 account, Ms. Harper, now Harper's account and the

23 student's account?

24 A. And the student's account.

119

1 Q. Did you talk to the student?

2 A. No, but Mr. Hollis had.

3 Q. And so you based your decisions on the

4 accounts of these three individuals, do I understand

5 you correctly?

6 A. You understand I had no doubt the student

7 was in the library.

8 Q. That is not my question. But I think we

9 can stipulate that the student was in the library.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. No. My question was, that you based your

12 decision based on the accounts of --

13 A. The parties involved.

14 Q. The three people that you've enumerated

15 before?

16 A. Yes, the parties involved.

17 Q. And you didn't interview the student, but

18 Mr. Hollis did. Do I understand that correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you interview Ms. Harper?

21 A. No, I read Ms. Harper' statement.

22 Q. So the only person you actually spoke with

23 was Ms. Swenson, is that right?

24 A. Correct.

120

1 Q. And it's true, isn't it that at the time

2 that this was happening in late October 2009,

3 Ms. Swenson was embroiled, if you will, in another

4 matter that ultimately resulted in the letter that's

5 now in evidence as District 13. Isn't that right?

6 A. May I look at the letter?

7 Q. Well, hopefully it's in front of you

8 somewhere. It's a letter dated October 28, 2009. It

9 actually has two other documents attached to it.

10 A. (Looks.)

11 MR. NORTH: I'm sorry what was the

12 question. I missed --

13 Q. My question was, isn't it true that

14 Ms. Swenson was embroiled in another matter at the

15 time that this October 29, 2009 incident, we'll call

16 it, took place.

17 A. Yes. Because of an incident that occurred

18 in September, she had received notification that she

19 was going to be suspended beginning Monday, November

20 16th.

21 Q. Right. Okay. So that is true?

22 A. That's true.

23 Q. And so when she is summoned to

24 Mr. Hollis's office on November 5th, 2009, is it your

121

1 understanding that Ms. Swenson -- is it fair to say

2 that Ms. Swenson might have believed that it related

3 to this other matter that she was aware of?

4 MR. NORTH: I'm going to object to that

5 question. It calls for wild speculation about a

6 process that Ms. Norton was not even involved in.

7 MS. MAHONEY: I'll let Ms. Swenson

8 testify to that.

9 Q. So you've been superintendent for two years

10 now?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And I think you said that you -- you got

13 Ann Marie Swenson's personnel file after meeting with

14 Mr. Hollis about this, is that right?

15 A. Um-hum.

16 Q. Is that a yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And so Mr. Hollis met with you at some

19 point between November 5th and November 16th, right?

20 A. Mr. Hollis met with me closer to the end

21 of November. It was closer to the end of November,

22 mid November, end of November, because I know it was

23 close to Thanksgiving break.

24 Q. So Mr. Hollis met with you after November

122

1 16th, not before?

2 A. In that time period. But I know it was

3 close to the break.

4 Q. Well, you were here during his testimony,

5 were you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And didn't you hear him testifying that he

8 had his meeting with you sometime between November 5th

9 --

10 A. I can't remember the exact --

11 Q. I'm sorry, Superintendent. With all due

12 respect, you're going to have to let me finish asking

13 my questions. It's really hard on the stenographer

14 when we step on each other in conversation.

15 So my question is, did you not hear Mr. Hollis

16 testify that the meeting with you, the meeting he had

17 with you about this matter, this October 29th matter,

18 took place between November 5th and November 16th?

19 A. I believe that's what he said.

20 Q. And are you disagreeing with him?

21 A. I'm not disagreeing. It happened in mid

22 November. I'm just not sure of the exact date.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. We meet every Wednesday.

123

1 Q. Okay. So did you get her personnel file

2 before or after the meeting with him?

3 A. It would have been after.

4 Q. After. Okay. So you had your meeting with

5 Mr. Hollis, then you got her personnel file, is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you reviewed the information in the

9 personnel file?

10 A. I was reviewing information in regards to

11 the two prior suspensions and the number of reprimands

12 that were in the file?

13 Q. Okay. And upon reviewing the file you

14 contacted legal counsel, is that right?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And when was that?

17 A. After reviewing the file, I would have

18 contacted legal counsel within the next 24 to 48 hours

19 via e-mail or a cell phone call. I don't recall which

20 way I did it.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. But that's how I contact Attorney North.

23 Q. Okay. And then you called a meeting with

24 Ms. Swenson for March 15, 2010?

124

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. That's the sequence of events?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There was no activity between the time that

5 you -- on your part between the time that you spoke

6 with legal counsel on this matter 24, 48 hours after

7 reviewing the personnel file and March 15, 2010?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And in your capacity as superintendent, is

10 it not your job to be involved in the budget process?

11 A. All superintendents are involved, but my

12 assistant superintendent is assistant superintendent

13 and director of finances.

14 Q. Okay. So I'll ask it again. Is it not

15 part of your job to be involved in--

16 A. Yes, it is. I'm sorry.

17 Q. It is part of your job to be involved in

18 the budget process, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. Correct.

20 Q. And that happens every year, right?

21 A. Yes, it does.

22 Q. And when does that start?

23 A. It starts in November.

24 Q. And you testified on direct examination

125

1 that you were very busy with the budget process in

2 2010, is that right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And you talked about some very serious

5 financial issues, right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And they were what?

8 A. Regional transportation.

9 Q. Okay. And that was brought to your

10 attention when?

11 A. December.

12 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony, ma'am,

13 that as a result of these financial issues and other

14 issues that you've testified to, you were unable to

15 attend to the matter involving Ms. Swenson of October

16 29th, 2009. Is that your testimony?

17 A. As a result of the financial issues, as a

18 result of the Massachusetts School Building Authority

19 notification. And I also think it's important to note

20 between that time frame the number of true school days

21 that we work. There are vacations in December, there

22 are vacations in January and there are vacations in

23 February, I would say at least 20 to 25 vacation

24 days. So while the time span seems long -- so I would

126

1 say all of that together would account for the March

2 meeting. May I also add, legal counsel was out of the

3 country during that time period.

4 Q. Did you ever write to Ms. Swenson or

5 contact her and let her know that the matter was on

6 your desk?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. And Mr. Hollis didn't either, to your

9 knowledge, did he?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 Q. Is it your testimony that vacation days

12 interfere with your ability to carry through and

13 investigate matters that may result in discipline?

14 A. No, that's not what I said.

15 Q. I just wanted to be clear. Vacation days

16 happen every year pretty much right on schedule, don't

17 they?

18 A. They're on the school calendar. They're

19 scheduled on our school calendar.

20 Q. They're not unexpected or unusual, right?

21 A. No, it's not. But there are days that

22 staff is not present in the building.

23 Q. And is it your testimony that you were

24 unable to attend to any other matters, any of the

127

1 day-to-day operations of the school district while you

2 were addressing the budget issues that you were --

3 that you -- and the building issues that you testified

4 to earlier today?

5 A. No, I would not say that.

6 Q. And you testified that you viewed this

7 matter as very serious, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Isn't it true that there is no mechanism in

10 the collective bargaining agreement for Ms. Swenson

11 to grieve the suspension?

12 A. The mechanism is for her just to appeal it.

13 Q. Appeal it, right. Are you aware of any

14 recourse she would have to the grievance procedure

15 under the collective bargaining agreement for a

16 grievance?

17 A. She could have appealed the suspension to

18 me. And if not pleased with the outcome, she could

19 appeal to the school committee.

20 Q. Okay. Well, she did appeal the suspension,

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you upheld it?

24 A. Yes, I did.

128

9 Q. And what did the matter involve, what was

10 the issue?

11 A. This issue involved a discovery that candy,

12 lollipops, were being sold in the library, videos were

13 being charged, video rentals were being charged,

14 students were being charged for floppy disks, students

15 were being charged for copies to be made. I was

16 principal at the time when this was brought to my

17 attention. And the way I handled it was through a

18 hearing with a directive to stop selling candy -- and

19 the letter is here. You can read it on the letter --

20 various items in the library immediately. Then it was

21 discovered that candy continued to be sold out of the

22 back room of the library after I had verbally stated

23 it was to stop and had written that this type of

24 conduct was to cease.

130

10 Q. I think what you -- forgive me

11 Superintendent Norton. I believe what you just

12 testified to was related to the three-day suspension,

13 the issue of the candy.

14 A. Yes. That's the candy issue, yes.

15 Q. And isn't it true that Ms. Swenson didn't

16 even appeal that. She accepted responsibility and --

17 A. Right. That was not appealed.

18 Q. And took her lumps, isn't that right?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And that is something I think you testified

21 that you expect of people, to admit when they're wrong

22 and move on, right?

23 A. Move forward.

24 Q. And so what is the five-day suspension

131

1 about?

2 A. This is an insubordination. This dealt

3 with a message that was sent to the staff that had

4 erroneous information in it. This was handled by the

5 principal so I'm reading most of this to you.

6 Q. Well, I don't really want you to refer to

7 the document while you're testifying. What do you

8 know about this?

9 A. I know that Ms. Swenson appealed to the

10 superintendent and asked for a reduction in the five

11 days.

12 Q. So you don't know anything about the

13 substance of the discipline, what led to it?

14 A. I know that it came because an erroneous

15 e-mail was circulated to the staff. Ms. Swenson was

16 asked to revise, draft a corrected e-mail. She was

17 given several opportunities to do so. Timelines were

18 changed in order for her to be able to meet the

19 timelines and she never produced the document.

20 Q. That's your testimony. She never produced

21 any documents?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And so a five-day suspension was imposed on

24 her, right?

132

1 A. Correct.

2 So -- what was your purpose in imposing

3 this discipline on Ms. Swenson, the discipline in

4 question in this arbitration?

5 A. There's consequences for behavior.

6 Q. You wanted to impose consequences for the

7 behavior, is that right?

8 A. Inappropriate behavior unbecoming of a

9 professional.

10 Q. So you wanted to punish her, is that a fair

11 statement or no?

12 A. As adults, I believe there have to be

13 consequences for behavior that is unbecoming a

14 professional. This was a third instance of behavior

15 unbecoming a professional. And in my opinion, it

16 warranted a 20-day suspension.

17 Q. And exactly what did you review in making

18 this determination? What exactly was your

19 determination based on, your determination to impose a

20 20-day suspension?

21 A. My determination to impose the 20-day

22 suspension was based on the severity of the incident

138

1 as I saw it, and also based on the fact that there

2 were two previous suspensions.

3 Q. Right. And so you, I think it's fair to

4 say you based your decision, in part, on the existence

5 of the two prior suspensions, is that right?

6 A. I took into account the situation that was

7 before me.

8 Q. Okay. My question wasn't that. Let's

9 listen.

10 You based your decision, at least in part, on the

11 existence of the two prior suspensions, is that your

12 testimony?

13 A. May I answer it?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. I had a situation in front of me. I looked

16 --

17 Q. Actually, it was a yes or no question, so

18 I'm looking for a yes or no answer.

19 MR. NORTH: I'm going to object. The

20 witness might not be able to answer it as a yes or no

21 question.

22 MR. ARBITRATOR: I'm going to allow the

23 question. Please restate the question.

24 MS. MAHONEY: Okay. I'll try.

139

1 MR. ARBITRATOR: But as stated, just so she

2 can, the witness can hear it one more time.

3 MS. MAHONEY: Maybe the stenographer

4 can read it back.

5 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sure.

6 (Question read.)

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What else did you base your decision on?

9 A. I based my decision on the situation as it

10 had occurred and the disciplinary record of the

11 employee.

12 Q. And by "disciplinary record," you're

13 referring to something other than the two prior

14 suspensions?

15 A. To the prior suspensions.

16 Q. Directing your attention to the phrase "the

17 situation as it occurred," how did you ascertain the

18 situation as it occurred?

19 A. The documents that were presented to me and

20 through the hearings that I held with Ms. Swenson.

21 Q. And the documents that were presented to

22 you were what?

23 A. The information that Mr. Hollis had

24 gathered in his investigation.

140

1 Q. Well, okay. I need specifics.

2 Mr. Hollis's letter of November 16th?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. 11-16-09 letter from Mr. Hollis to

5 Ms. Swenson. What else?

6 A. Ms. Harper' letter.

7 Q. Of October 30th, 2009?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. What else?

10 A. I don't know if there are other documents

11 other than those. These are mine. Those documents.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. And our meetings, as I said.

14 Q. And your meeting with Ms. Swenson?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And how many did you have with

17 Ms. Swenson?

18 A. The meeting on March 15th and the meeting

19 in April. Two meetings.

20 Q. You had a meeting in May, too, didn't you?

21 A. I'm sorry, yes. And in May.

22 Q. And at any of those three meetings,

23 Ms. Norton, did Ms. Swenson admit to the

24 allegations set forth in Ms. Gidding's letter of

141

1 October 24th, 2009?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I mean October 29th, 2009. She admitted to

4 the allegation that she said "I'll lie?"

5 A. She said "I'll cover for you."

6 Q. Okay. So --

7 A. She said, I did not say "I'll lie." She

8 said "I said 'I will cover for you.'"

9 Q. And you interpret the phrase "I'll lie" and

10 "I'll cover for you" as one and the same?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. If I understand you correctly?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. She also admitted there was a problem with

16 her sign-in process.

17 Q. Was that a basis for the discipline?

18 A. She talked about the fact that Karen --

19 Q. That was a yes or no question.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was that a basis for the discipline?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you disciplined her, at least in part,

24 on the fact that there was a problem with her, meaning

142

1 the library, sign-in process?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. The discipline wasn't based on that, was

4 it?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So did that admission have some relevance

7 to you in imposing the discipline?

8 A. There is relevance, but obviously I'm not

9 going to be able to talk about it. So if you want a

10 yes or no.

11 Q. Okay. Well, I'm interested in trying to

12 figure out, you've said that Ms. Swenson admitted to

13 the allegations set forth in Ms. Harper' letter.

14 And so what I'm interested in knowing is, which

15 allegations in Ms. Harper' letter did Ms. Swenson

16 admit to?

17 MR. NORTH: Can we put the letter in

18 front of her?

19 MS. MAHONEY: Sure. I assumed she had

20 it.

21 MR. NORTH: You're going to show her

22 District 1?

23 MS. MAHONEY: District 1.

24 THE WITNESS: (Looks.)

143

1 A. At our meeting, Ms. Swenson stated that

2 she saw Karen in the library and then that Karen was

3 permitted to sign in at 1:42, when she had been in the

4 library and had not signed in. Then Ms. Swenson told

5 me that she did not say "I'll lie." She said "I'll

6 cover for you."

7 Q. And did you make a determination as the

8 decision maker in this matter, did you make a

9 determination as to which it was? Did Ms. Swenson

10 say "I'll lie" or did she say "I'll cover for you"?

11 A. Did I determine what she said? I'm sorry.

12 Could you repeat your question.

13 Q. Yes. That is, my question is, as the

14 decision maker in this context, did you make a

15 determination as to who was telling you the truth?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And what was that determination?

18 A. I determined that the comment was "I'll

19 lie."

20 Q. And you didn't even interview Ms. Harper,

21 do I have you correct on that?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. So you made a credibility judgment favoring

24 the person you didn't talk to, did I understand you

144

1 correctly?

2 A. Yes. Could I add to that?

3 Q. No.

4 MR. NORTH: That's all right.

5 Q. What else did she, quote, unquote, "admit

6 to" during your three meetings? By "she" I mean

7 Ms. Swenson.

8 A. She admitted that Karen had signed in

9 after she had told Ms. Harper that she had signed in.

10 Q. She is accused of lying to a colleague.

11 That's the ultimate finding that led to your

12 disciplinary action, is it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what lie did she tell to the colleague,

15 according to your findings?

16 A. That Karen had signed into the library at

17 1:42.

18 Q. Is it your testimony that that was not

19 true?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Did you ever check the logbook?

22 A. No.

23 Q. So you made a determination that

24 Ms. Swenson was lying about Karen's sign-in at 1:42

145

1 and you never checked the library sign-in book?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Do you know if Mr. Hollis did?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. You didn't ask him?

6 A. (No answer.)

7 Q. You didn't ask him?

8 A. No, I didn't ask him.

9 Q. So the lie she told to the colleague was

10 that Karen had signed in at 1:42, is that your

11 testimony?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And so -- and that's why you suspended her

14 for 20 days, for telling that lie?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you here during Ms. Harper' testimony?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Did you hear her testify that she didn't

19 even ask Ms. Swenson about the sign-in?

20 A. Could you repeat that?

21 Q. Let me try it a different way.

22 Did you hear her testify that she had asked

23 Ms. Swenson about the sign-in?

24 A. I believe she said, "What's going on?"

146

1 "How long has she been there?"

2 Q. Do you recall her testimony about the rapid

3 fire questions?

4 A. Yes, she had rapid fire questions.

5 Q. Uh-huh.

6 A. And she talked about the sign-in process

7 and how she wasn't familiar with it as a second-year

8 teacher.

9 Q. And is it your testimony that you -- strike

10 that.

11 Is it your understanding that Ms. Harper

12 inquired of Ms. Swenson as to what time the student

13 signed in?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That's your testimony?

16 A. I believe she asked if she had signed into

17 the library.

18 Q. Okay. Do you agree with Ms. Harper'

19 prior testimony that she has responsibility for a

20 student who is supposed to be in her classroom during

21 a given period?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you have an understanding as to why

24 Ms. Harper was trying to ascertain Karen's

147

1 whereabouts?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what's your understanding of that?

4 A. It's important that she know where all of

5 her students are at all times. They're assigned to a

6 teacher. Our teachers know that they're responsible

7 to know their whereabouts.

8 Q. Safety issue, isn't it?

9 A. Very critical safety issue.

10 Q. Is it your testimony -- strike that.

11 Okay. So the decision, as articulated in your

12 April 12th, 2010 letter, to suspend Ms. Swenson for

13 20 days was based on lying to a colleague, correct?

14 A. She was suspended for lying to a colleague,

15 and doing so, I believe it says, in front of a

16 student.

17 Q. I think if you refer to the first sentence

18 of the next-to-last paragraph, maybe you can just read

19 that into the record for us.

20 MR. NORTH: What are you looking at?

21 MS. MAHONEY: The first sentence of the

22 next-to-last paragraph of the April 12th letter, the

23 April 12 notice of suspension. There are two April

24 12th letters, right?

148

1 MR. NORTH: I mean, that's in

2 evidence. I don't really see the point of --

3 MS. MAHONEY: Well, I think for

4 continuity's sake, I'd just like to have the witness

5 read it into the record so I can ask some questions

6 based on it.

7 MR. NORTH: Are you talking about the

8 --

9 MS. MAHONEY: It starts with "Lying to

10 a colleague --"

11 MR. NORTH: Okay. We all have it in

12 front of us.

13 MR. ARBITRATOR: Right. You can ask

14 questions based on the document.

15 MS. MAHONEY: Okay.

16 Q. So is the witness -- Ms. Norton, do you

17 see where I am here?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. So you've indicated that lying to a

20 colleague is a serious matter, right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And what you've testified to today is the

23 lie that you were referencing is this lie that Karen

24 had signed in, this alleged lie that Karen had signed

149

1 in at 1:42, correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And you have further indicated in the

4 letter that it was compounded by the fact that it --

5 well, it says, "which is compounded when it occurs in

6 front of students," correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And what students are you alleging it

9 occurred in front of?

10 A. Student. Karen.

11 Q. Okay. So just one student, is that right?

12 That's your allegation?

13 A. Correct.

14 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have anything

15 further for this witness at this time. Thank you.

16 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any redirect at this

17 point?

18 MR. NORTH: Yeah, I will in a minute.

19 (Pause.)

22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

23 Q. Okay. So regarding the lie that Karen

24 signed in at 1:42 as told to Monica Harper, in your

150

1 meetings with Ann Marie Swenson, what did she say

2 about the truth or falsity of the notion that Karen

3 had signed in at the time that she told Monica

4 Harper that she had signed in?

5 MS. MAHONEY: I'm just going to object

6 because I don't understand the question.

7 MR. NORTH: Well, if the witness

8 understands it then -- I can rephrase it.

9 MR. ARBITRATOR: Please rephrase.

10 Q. So you've testified about what the lie was

11 and that Karen -- essentially that Ann Marie Swenson

12 told Monica Harper that Karen signed in at 1:42, is

13 that correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And that, in fact, when that statement was

16 made, Karen had not signed in?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. What did Ann Marie Swenson tell you about

19 that incident?

20 A. She said that's what occurred, that Karen

21 had not signed in at 1:42.

22 Q. Okay. What did she say about whether

23 Karen signed in after she spoke to Ms. Harper?

24 A. She admitted that she signed in afterwards.

151

1 Q. Okay. And so did she indicate what time

2 she signed in as of?

3 A. Her indication was that Karen signed in

4 and put down the number 1:42.

5 Q. Okay. So would examining the logbook be of

6 any value in this case?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. NORTH: I have nothing further.

10 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any recross?

11 MS. MAHONEY: Yes.

13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

14 Q. Is it your understanding that Ms. Harper

15 was trying to ascertain Karen's whereabouts?

16 A. She was trying to find out where Karen

17 was, yes.

18 Q. And she was -- she learned that Karen was

19 in the library, did she not?

20 A. Yes, she did.

21 Q. And the period in question started at 1:42,

22 did it not?

23 A. Her class period started at 1:42.

24 Q. And she has -- Karen indicated, did she

152

1 not, that she was in the library at the start of the

2 period, is that right?

3 A. She indicated that. Karen did, yes.

4 Q. And is it your understanding that in saying

5 "Karen signed in at 1:42," is a lie because the

6 moment in time when she picked up the pen and signed

7 the logbook it wasn't 1:42, it was some other time?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. What time was it?

10 A. It was after 1:42.

11 Q. Okay. And so you -- it's your testimony

12 then that the logbook -- strike that. I'll go back.

13 The logbook records students' name and the time

14 that they're in and the time that they're out, doesn't

15 it?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. So, in what? It's to record the time that

18 they're in the library?

19 A. It's to record the time that individual

20 students are in the library. When they are there with

21 a group, as a group with a teacher, they do not have

22 to sign in and out.

23 Q. So is it your belief that Karen should

24 have signed in?

153

1 A. Any student who is in the library -- I

2 should correct that, with a pass signs in and out.

3 They shouldn't even be in the library if they don't

4 have a pass to be there.

5 Q. Is it your testimony that there should be a

6 librarian standing in front of the logbook monitoring

7 students coming and going all the time?

8 A. The librarian or the library assistant

9 should be aware of students coming in and out all the

10 time, yes.

11 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was,

12 is it your testimony --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let me finish my question, because we want

15 to be clear on the record here.

16 Is it your testimony that the librarian or her

17 assistant should be standing over the logbook

18 monitoring students comings and goings at all times?

19 A. No, they do not have to be standing over

20 it.

21 MR. ARBITRATOR: Can I ask you just to wait

22 for a minute?

23 MS. MAHONEY: Sure.

24 (Pause.)

154

1 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Thank you.

2 Q. We've established that Karen did not sign

3 in upon arriving in the library, haven't we?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And did you at any point come to have an

6 understanding as to when Karen arrived in the library

7 based on your review of the record?

8 A. My understanding is that she was in the

9 library for a significant amount of time prior to that

10 counseling a student.

11 Q. And where do you see that in the material

12 that you reviewed to make your decision?

13 A. I believe it was in -- perhaps it was in, I

14 don't believe I have Mr. Hollis's. Ms. Swenson

15 might have said she was there counseling a student or

16 told Ms. Harper.

17 Q. Is it in one of the documents that's in

18 evidence at this point, Ms. Norton?

19 A. I don't know if it's in one of

20 Mr. Hollis's documents or not. They're not in front

21 of me -- or in a document that Ms. Swenson might have

22 written back to him. I don't have it in front of me.

23 Q. Well, in terms of the documents you

24 reviewed to make your decision, it was Mr. Hollis's

155

1 November 16th letter, right. I think you testified

2 earlier the documents you reviewed were the November

3 16, 2009 letter from Mr. Hollis to Ann Marie

4 Swenson, right?

5 A. May I see that letter?

6 MR. NORTH: It's District 2. And

7 District 3 is the 11-24 letter from Ann Marie

8 Swenson.

9 MS. MAHONEY: Well, actually, this

10 witness didn't testify to having reviewed that

11 document before making her decision.

12 MR. NORTH: Can you ask her the

13 question?

14 Q. Do you recall testifying earlier that the

15 documents you reviewed to make your decision were the

16 November 16, 2009 letter from Mr. Hollis to

17 Ms. Swenson and Ms. Harper' October 30, 2009 letter

18 and your meetings with Ms. Swenson. That was the

19 information on which you formed your decision. Do you

20 recall that?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. And so my question is, you just testified a

23 few minutes ago that it's your understanding that the

24 student in question was in the library for quote, "a

156

1 significant amount of time counseling a student." Is

2 that right?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And so is it your belief that we're going

5 to find some reference to that time span or that

6 "fact," if you will, fact in quotes, by reviewing the

7 letter of the 16th or Ms. Harper' letter?

8 A. You may not find it in there, but you'll

9 find it in numerous documents.

10 Q. Okay. We're going to find something in one

11 of these documents that says the student was in the

12 library for a significant amount of time prior to the

13 start of the 5th period, is that your testimony?

14 A. I can't guarantee it will read exactly like

15 that.

16 Q. And so in signing the log-in book, is it

17 your belief that the student is expected to sign,

18 indicate the time in which they arrived in the

19 library?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it's your belief then, that, I guess on

22 -- strike that.

23 Is it your understanding that in ascertaining the

24 sign-in time, you're ascertaining the moment at which

157

1 somebody picks up a pen and signs in, like, let's say

2 right now my watch says 1:58. If I were signing a log

3 right now, I would sign my name, write "1:58," put the

4 pen down. Follow me?

5 MR. NORTH: I'm going to object. This

6 is totally irrelevant.

7 MR. ARBITRATOR: Yeah. Maybe we could just

8 --

9 MS. MAHONEY: I'm just trying to

10 ascertain --

11 MR. ARBITRATOR: Get to where you're going.

12 MS. MAHONEY: I'm trying to think of a

13 way of doing it.

14 Q. Superintendent Norton, is it your

15 understanding that in --

16 MS. MAHONEY: You know what? I think

17 I'm all set with what she's already testified to. So

18 I'm done. Thank you.

19 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any further questions?

20 MR. NORTH: No.

21 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Thank you for your

22 testimony.

23 MR. NORTH: The District rests.

158

9 MR. ARBITRATOR: So we're back on the

10 record. And I know, Ms. Swenson, you've already been

11 sworn in. So whenever Attorney Mahoney, you're

12 ready, we're ready to go.

13 MS. MAHONEY: Thank you,

14 Mr. Arbitrator. We'll call Ann Marie Swenson as our

15 first witness.

16 (Witness takes the stand.)

18 ******************

19 ANN MARIE SWENSON

20 ******************

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

23 Q. Good afternoon.

24 A. Good afternoon.

159

1 Q. Could you just provide us with a brief

2 history of your employment, your career, if you will?

3 A. Well, I have a bachelor's in English from

4 Buffalo University. I have a master's of library

5 science from Simmons College and I have a master's of

6 education from Connecticut University. And I've been

7 employed at Attleboro for 16 some-odd years,

8 15-plus years.

9 Q. As a librarian?

10 A. As a librarian, correct.

11 Q. Okay. I'm just going to show you what I'll

12 mark for identification as Swenson 2 and ask you if

13 that document looks familiar to you?

14 A. Yes. It's my resume.

15 Q. I'm sorry. Could you speak up a little?

16 A. That's my resume.

17 Q. And is it an accurate representation of

18 your employment --

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. -- history?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And educational background?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 MS. MAHONEY: I will move this into

160

1 evidence as Swenson 1.

2 MR. NORTH: No objection.

3 MR. ARBITRATOR: All right.

4 (Swenson Exhibit 2 marked.)

5 Q. Turning your attention to the events of

6 October 29, 2009, Ms. Swenson, do you recall what

7 your work schedule was that day?

8 A. That was, I believe, was it a Tuesday,

9 Wednesday or Thursday? Do we know which day of the

10 week it was?

11 Q. I don't know offhand. Maybe you can just

12 tell us what your schedule was.

13 A. All right. Generally Mondays and Fridays,

14 I worked from 10 to 3. And Tuesday, Wednesdays and

15 Thursdays, I work from 10 to 4. So I had been in the

16 building at least since 10:00 on any of those days.

17 Q. Did anything remarkable happen at any point

18 during the morning of that day that you recall?

19 A. Nothing different, no.

20 Q. At some point, something of some

21 noteworthiness did occur though, right?

22 A. Um-hum.

23 Q. Is that a yes?

24 A. Yes, it is.

161

1 Q. And can you tell just the arbitrator to the

2 best of your recollection what happened with regard to

3 the student that we've been talking about today named

4 Karen?

5 A. Do you want the full start to finish or --

6 Q. Well, if you want to tell it in

7 chronological order, whatever is easiest for you.

8 A. Okay. Well, that's, to the best of my

9 knowledge, I will recount the sequence of events. I

10 usually take my lunch between 1:00 and 2:00 in the

11 afternoon. And --

12 Q. Let me, I may be interrupting you for

13 clarification from time to time.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. When you say you take it from 1:00 to 2:00,

16 you mean you take it at some time between those

17 hours?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. But you don't have an hour lunch, is that

20 right?

21 A. No. I have approximately 20 minutes, 30

22 minutes at the most.

23 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

24 A. So I was coming back from my lunch on that

162

1 particular day at approximately 1:40ish. I came from

2 the back of the library from the teacher's room where

3 I had had my lunch, went past what is called a library

4 pod, where there are five computers. I noticed Karen

5 and another student at one of those computers that

6 were in some sort of distress. I walked past them. I

7 remember going into the office, speaking to Kathy

8 Lanier, who is the school library assistant or aide,

9 walked back through the library office into the

10 teacher's resource room which is next to the library

11 office, put the rest of my lunch into the

12 refrigerator. I think I cleaned up something from

13 lunch, cleaned up some, something near the copy

14 machine. So I may have been in there a few minutes.

15 I came back into the office and was told that

16 there was a call for me. And so I picked up the

17 phone, Monica Harper identified herself. To the

18 best of my knowledge, I remember her asking me if

19 Karen had been there from the beginning of the period

20 and I said "yes." Um, and that's what I remember from

21 the conversation. At -- initially I put the phone

22 down, I drew Karen aside and asked her also, to give

23 her some respect as to whether she, in fact, had been

24 there from the beginning of the period as I had

163

1 ascertained. She said "yes." And I said, "Well, have

2 you signed in?" And she said "no." And I instructed

3 her at that time that she needed to sign in for the

4 beginning of the period, which I knew to be 1:42. And

5 I got back on the phone and told Monica Harper that

6 she had then signed in and that was the end of the

7 conversation that I recall.

8 Q. Okay. Do you recall her saying "I heard

9 that." "I heard what you said" or "I heard that

10 conversation"?

11 A. I don't remember hearing that, no.

12 Q. Did you say to Karen or to anyone else

13 "I'll lie"?

14 A. I would never say that to a student or a

15 teacher. That is unbecoming. And I do remember

16 saying to Karen something to the effect of "I will

17 cover for you," meaning I will vouch for you. That

18 was my reasoning behind that phrase. Because I said

19 to her, "I have seen you since the beginning of the

20 period, so I can say that you were here."

21 Q. In your mind is covering for somebody the

22 same as lying for somebody?

23 A. No, not at all.

24 Q. Okay. Did you intend to lie to

164

1 Ms. Harper or to mislead her in any way?

2 A. Not at all.

3 Q. Now, do you recall whether Ms. Harper

4 asked you specifically if the student had signed in?

5 Do you recall that?

6 A. I don't remember her saying that.

7 Q. Okay. Do you recall her exact words at any

8 point?

9 A. To the best of my knowledge she was asking

10 if Karen had been in the library since the beginning

11 of the period, that she was looking for Karen. And I

12 could definitely say, "Yes, Karen has been here since

13 the beginning of the period."

14 Q. Okay. Did you -- did she say why she was

15 asking about the student's arrival time?

16 A. I think she was, she mentioned something

17 that Karen had not arrived to her class.

18 Q. But did she further explain why she was

19 asking?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Nothing beyond that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you have an understanding as to why she

24 would be wanting to know about Karen's whereabouts?

165

1 A. Of course. Every teacher is concerned when

2 a student doesn't come to a class. That's what a good

3 teacher does. They make sure all of their students

4 are there. And Karen, I know also a little bit about

5 Karen, that she did have a history of not being where

6 she should be. So of course, she would be more

7 concerned with Karen perhaps, than some other

8 students. But --

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I assured her she was there.

11 Q. Okay. And you felt that you had answered

12 her question and answered it accurately?

13 A. I thought I had, yes.

14 Q. In asking or ascertaining Karen's -- what

15 Karen's arrival time, if you will, was in the library

16 and trying to ascertain whether she had been there

17 since the beginning of the period, did you understand

18 this teacher to be asking what moment in time the

19 student picked up a pen and signed in on a log, was

20 that your understanding of what her question was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What, in your own words, was your

23 understanding of what she was trying to ascertain?

24 A. She was trying to find out where Karen

166

1 was. And so she wanted -- and she was supposed to be

2 in her class at that period, at 5th period. So I

3 assured her that for that 5th period, she was, in

4 fact, in the library from the beginning of the period.

5 Q. Okay. Was it your sense that she not only

6 wanted to know where she was but also wanted to

7 ascertain issues around timing?

8 A. Yes. Again, I believe she wanted to know

9 if she was there right from the beginning.

10 Q. That was your understanding?

11 A. Yes, right.

12 Q. And did she say anything to you during her

13 conversation in response to your, the information you

14 conveyed to her that suggested that you were providing

15 her with information that she didn't want or wasn't

16 seeking?

17 A. No.

169

12 Q. Okay. So in, could you -- actually, could

13 you just elaborate on one thing, because I'm not sure

14 I'm clear on your testimony. How did you ascertain

15 that Karen had been in the library since the

16 beginning of the period?

17 A. Because when I was coming from my lunch

18 into the library, the library was quiet. The only

19 students there were Karen and another student. And

20 there was noise at the other, at the other, on the

21 left-hand side outside of the doors. And I could see

22 students passing. So I knew it was between periods.

23 And I looked at my watch at that point and realized it

24 was before 5th period. And then I heard the bell

170

1 ring, so I ascertained that it was, Karen had been in

2 the library during or in between classes and then the

3 classes were starting.

4 Q. How long is the interval between classes?

5 A. About 4 minutes.

6 Q. So a bell rings for students to get up from

7 the class they're in and proceed to their next period

8 class?

9 A. Right. That, I didn't hear.

10 Q. Okay. The first bell you didn't hear?

11 A. No, I didn't hear it.

12 Q. You were coming through, you came through

13 these doors that are on the right of this page?

14 A. Um-hum.

15 Q. Why didn't you see students passing in the

16 halls outside the library over there?

17 A. Students generally don't -- they go up and

18 down the stairs. But when I was passing through,

19 again, I didn't see any students even going up and

20 down the stairs. I must have come in right before the

21 bell or -- I don't know. I don't remember, actually.

22 Q. But -- so students don't generally walk in

23 that corridor?

24 A. They don't walk generally on that side of

171

1 the -- no, they don't go through that corridor. They

2 generally go up and down the stairs.

3 Q. And where is it -- I think you testified

4 you saw students. Where did you see students?

5 A. On the left-hand doors. Outside the left-

6 hand doors. That's where all the classrooms are, at

7 that end of the corridor, outside the library.

8 Q. I see. Are those doors glass?

9 A. Yes, they're glass.

10 Q. Okay. So Ms. Swenson, back to your

11 conversation with Ms. Harper, you -- how long would

12 you say the conversation lasted?

13 A. Well, um, in total or in between the time I

14 put the phone down or --

15 Q. From start to finish.

16 A. From start to finish, perhaps 3 minutes.

17 Q. Okay. And you, do you recall doing

18 anything after you got off the phone with

19 Ms. Harper?

20 A. I went back out of the office and saw

21 Karen cross the aisle or the corridor to go and sit

22 at those tables with Donna Thomas.

23 Q. Had you given Karen any -- had you said

24 anything to Karen after getting off the phone with

172

1 Ms. Harper or did you say anything to her --

2 A. No.

3 Q. -- while you were still on the phone?

4 A. When I put the phone down, I went, I pulled

5 Karen aside and, again, just verified what I had

6 seen, that she had been in the library, asked her if

7 she had, in fact, been in the library since the

8 beginning of the period. She said "yes." And I asked

9 her if she had signed in, because if she was there

10 alone, that's what she should be doing. And she said

11 "no." And I said, you know, "This is what you're

12 supposed to do so you need to go over, please, and

13 sign in so we can have a record. And sign in at the

14 beginning of the period, because that's when you're

15 supposed to have been here. That's when you are

16 here."

17 Q. Was that your understanding?

18 A. What?

19 Q. That she was supposed to have been there at

20 the beginning of the period.

21 A. Well, any student coming in, if they're

22 there at the beginning of the period, that's when it

23 starts.

24 Q. Okay.

173

1 A. I'm just unclear.

2 Q. Well, did she -- did you ask her what time,

3 specifically what time she had arrived in the library,

4 if you recall?

5 A. I think I only asked her if she had been in

6 the library since the beginning of the period, not the

7 exact time.

8 Q. Okay. So is it your understanding that

9 Karen did sign in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. I'm going to show a document that

12 I've labeled as Swenson Exhibit 4 and ask you if

13 you're familiar with it?

14 A. (Looks.)

15 Q. Are you familiar with it?

16 A. I'm familiar with it, yes.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. It's a general library log we put out every

19 day.

20 Q. Okay. And do you see Karen's sign-in

21 there anywhere?

22 A. Yes. She signed in at Number 23.

23 Q. Okay. And is that consistent with your

24 instruction to her?

174

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MAHONEY: Move this into evidence

3 as Swenson 4.

4 MR. ARBITRATOR: Any objection?

5 MR. NORTH: I'll argue weight. I don't

6 really think it's particularly relevant to anything,

7 but I don't have an objection.

8 MR. ARBITRATOR: Okay. Submitted as

9 Swenson 4.

10 (Swenson Exhibit 4 marked.)

11 MS. MAHONEY: Thank you.

12 Q. You were here during the testimony that was

13 offered today by Mr. Hollis and Ms. Norton, weren't

14 you?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. And did you hear Mr. Hollis's testimony

17 concerning the meeting of November 5th, 2009 with

18 him?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And can you tell us, did you receive any

21 advance notice as to the matter to be discussed at

22 this meeting of November 5th, 2009?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. Did you receive a great deal of time in

175

1 advance of the meeting to prepare or inquire as to the

2 agenda for the meeting?

3 A. I believe not.

4 Q. Do you recall how much time before the

5 meeting you had to --

6 A. I want to say a couple of days at the most.

7 Q. Okay. And you attended the meeting,

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recall whether Mr. Hollis

11 provided you with a copy of what's now in evidences as

12 District 1, the October 30, 2009 letter from

13 Ms. Harper to Ms. Lepri?

14 A. No, he did not.

15 Q. Do you recall that he read from it?

16 A. Yes, he read portions of it.

17 Q. And did he ask you questions based on the

18 letter?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. Did he ever ask you to provide him with

21 your rendition of the events of October 29, 2009 from

22 start to finish?

23 A. No, he did not.

24 Q. Okay. Um, during the period between

176

1 November 16th, 2009 and March 15th, 2010, did you

2 receive any word from Mr. Hollis or Ms. Norton or

3 anybody concerning the status of this matter related

4 to the October 29th incident?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. What did you think? What were you

7 thinking?

8 A. I assumed that the matter had been

9 resolved. I had had discussion with Mr. Stock,

10 the union representative. That was his feeling also,

11 because I had not heard anything.

7 Q. With regard to the five-day suspension,

8 what was that in reference to? What were the

9 allegations there?

10 A. That I submitted an e-mail letter to

11 teachers regarding information that I had received

12 about resources that they may not, that the school may

13 not be receiving because of a part-time librarian

14 situation.

15 Q. Well, can you be a little more clear?

16 That's -- you sent an e-mail to all the staff in the

17 school, is that right?

18 A. Right. Explaining what might happen or

19 what would be happening since I was no longer employed

20 as a full-time librarian at the school. And according

21 to the knowledge that I had received, state databases

22 and the state catalog would not be of use -- would not

23 be given to the school.

24 Q. Is it the state library -- I'm sorry.

186

1 A. Mass. Library System, Mass. Board of

2 Library Commission.

3 Q. Okay. It was your understanding and it was

4 based on this understanding that you wrote this memo

5 to the staff that --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- that the school was going to be losing

8 library resources?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yes?

11 A. Yes. That was my understanding.

12 Q. Okay. And so you wrote that with that

13 understanding?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Is that right?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. And so you didn't write it knowing that it

18 was inaccurate, is that right?

19 A. Exactly.

20 Q. That's correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And is it your -- did you at some point

23 come to a different understanding?

24 A. Only after speaking to the head of my

187

1 region and after her discussion with Mr. Hollis that

2 they would allow for an extra year's extension with

3 these services. So that was their decision. It was

4 my understanding, I signed a contract every year

5 stating that the school has a full-time librarian. So

6 with that understanding, I could not sign that

7 document that year because we did not have a full-time

8 librarian. So I understood that these services would

9 be taken away.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And that was correct, but they decided to

12 allow the school one more year with those services.

13 Q. "They" being?

14 A. The Mass. Board of Library Commissioners.

15 Q. So in a sense, the school got a waiver?

16 A. Right. Exactly. And they're getting

17 another waiver this year only because the whole system

18 has been, I don't know what word I want to use, has

19 been revised, revamped and they're influx. And for

20 one more year, they're getting another free ride.

21 Q. So your hours at work were reduced at some

22 point --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- in the fairly recent past, is that

188

1 right?

2 A. They were reduced in September 2009.

3 Q. Okay. And can I assume that you weren't

4 happy about that?

5 A. Of course not. I wasn't able to do the

6 duties that I had been doing for 15 years as a full-

7 time librarian and I felt that services would be

8 lacking.

9 Q. And it probably also resulted in a

10 substantial pay cut for you?

11 A. Yes, of course it did.

12 Q. So your intention in sending out this memo

13 to staff was to provide them with information that you

14 understood to be accurate at the time that you sent

15 it, is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was it ever your intention to send anything

18 inaccurate or misleading?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. And has it ever been your intention to

21 provide inaccurate, misleading or untruthful

22 information to any of your colleagues at any time

23 during your employment at Attleboro?

24 A. It has never been my intention.

189

1 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have anything

2 further.

3 MR. ARBITRATOR: Thank you. Cross-

4 examination?

5 MR. NORTH: Yup.

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

8 Q. All right. Now going back to the

9 conversation that you had with Monica Harper on the

10 telephone, at the time that you told Ms. Harper that

11 Karen had signed in to the library, that wasn't true,

12 right?

13 MS. MAHONEY: Objection.

14 MR. ARBITRATOR: Basis?

15 MS. MAHONEY: I haven't heard the

16 witness say she told Ms. Harper that she signed into

17 the library.

18 MR. NORTH: All right. So it's a

19 foundational question? I mean, I think she's entitled

20 to answer the question.

21 A. She never asked me that. That was not her

22 question, at least from my recollection.

23 Q. Okay. Well, I didn't ask you that, but

24 I'll ask you in a more clear way so you understand my

190

1 question.

2 At some point in the conversation you told

3 Ms. Harper that Karen had signed into the library,

4 right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You never told her that?

7 A. Never told her that.

8 Q. You never said anything about whether

9 Karen had signed in.

10 A. (Shakes head.)

11 Q. You're shaking your head.

12 A. I told Karen that she needed to sign in.

13 So whether Ms. Harper overheard that while I put the

14 phone down, that may have been --

15 Q. But now I'm asking, what I'm asking is

16 whether you directly, intending to talk to Ms. Harper,

17 or Ms. Harper at the time, said that Karen signed

18 in?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. You never said that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And when you were on the telephone with

23 Ms. Harper, was Karen in the immediate vicinity?

24 A. How immediate are we speaking of?

191

1 Q. Within earshot.

2 A. Again, that's questionable. I mean, if --

3 I would say within earshot if you and I are speaking

4 with each other, but when a phone is put down, I don't

5 consider that earshot.

6 Q. Well, you had the phone near you when you

7 spoke to Karen, right?

8 A. Not near enough as I assumed for someone to

9 overhear.

10 Q. Well, how far away was it?

11 A. Probably from where you are to probably

12 where I'm sitting.

13 Q. About 6 feet?

14 A. Approximately that, yes.

15 Q. But you did -- so you did have a phone

16 conversation with Monica Harper that day, right?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And she asked you what was going on and

19 whether Karen had been there since the beginning of

20 the period?

21 A. Yes, she did.

22 Q. And then you had a conversation with

23 Karen?

24 A. Yes, I did.

192

1 Q. So you didn't answer any of those questions

2 from Ms. Harper at the time that she first asked

3 them, right?

4 A. I did answer those questions, the first

5 questions, when she had asked me was she there, you

6 know, and what was she doing there. And it was all a

7 bunch of questions all together. And I did assure

8 her, because I wanted to assure her that she had been

9 there since the beginning of the period. And that's

10 when I put the phone down, I said "I want to speak

11 with Karen." And I pulled Karen aside and I spoke

12 to her. And just, again, to give her her own respect

13 as a student to say, you know, "Have you been here

14 since the beginning of the period?" And she said

15 "Yes." And I said to her, "Have you signed in?"

16 Because I didn't physically see her sign in. And she

17 said, "No, I didn't."

18 Q. So your testimony is that you answered all

19 of Monica Harper' questions when she first asked

20 them?

21 A. What were all of her questions again,

22 please?

23 Q. Well, you just said she asked you a bunch

24 of questions, you answered all of her questions.

193

1 MS. MAHONEY: I'm going to object,

2 because I didn't hear the witness testify that she

3 answered all of Ms. Harper' questions.

4 MR. NORTH: I think the witness is

5 entitled to answer.

6 MR. ARBITRATOR: No. Please ask the

7 question.

8 MR. NORTH: Okay.

9 Q. Did you answer Ms. Harper' questions

10 before talking to Karen?

11 A. I'm not sure what all of her questions

12 were. I don't remember all of her questions.

13 Q. Did you answer any of her questions?

14 A. I believe I did. I believe she --

15 Q. What were her questions?

16 A. I believe her main questions were if Karen

17 was there and if Karen was in the library or had been

18 in the library since the beginning of the period.

19 That's what I remember saying, assuring her, "Yes,

20 she's been here all this time."

21 Q. So Ms. Harper had just talked to Karen,

22 hadn't she?

23 A. I believe she had. I was not in the room.

24 Q. So she knew Karen was there, right?

194

1 A. Yes. I believe she did.

2 Q. And she asked you whether Karen was there

3 from the beginning of the period?

4 A. Yes, she did.

5 Q. And then you answered her question right

6 then?

7 A. That question, yes.

8 Q. Were there any other questions that she

9 asked you?

10 A. Again, I -- the gist of -- this happened so

11 long ago that the bulk of her questions were based on

12 whether Karen was there and if she had been there

13 since the beginning of the period. And I understood

14 the reason she was asking those was because, like any

15 good teacher, she wanted to make sure that she was in

16 the same -- in a place at the beginning of the 5th

17 period or someplace at the beginning of 5th period.

18 Q. So if those were the questions she asked

19 and those were the questions you answered, why did you

20 have to have a conversation with Karen at that point?

21 A. Again, I wanted to give Karen some

22 respect, to make sure that what I had seen was, in

23 fact, true and that she had been there since the

24 beginning. And, again, that's when I asked her if she

195

1 had signed in, because that is generally the policy

2 when someone is there alone or some student is there

3 alone, that they need to at least sign into the log.

4 Q. Okay. All right. And Karen said no, she

5 did not sign in?

6 A. No, she did not.

7 Q. And Ms. Harper was still on the phone at

8 that time?

9 A. Yes, when I was speaking to Karen.

10 Q. So consistent with the testimony you heard

11 from Ms. Harper today, she was on the phone while you

12 asked her, asked Karen whether she had been there

13 from the beginning of the period and whether she had

14 signed in?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And the answers that Ms. Harper heard

17 from Karen were consistent with what you recall

18 Karen saying?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So do you have any doubt that Ms. Harper, I

21 keep going back and forth from Ms. Harper to

22 Ms. Harper, but you know.

23 MS. MAHONEY: We all know who we're

24 talking about.

196

1 Q. Do you have any doubt that Ms. Harper did,

2 in fact, overhear that conversation?

3 A. She may have heard some of it.

4 Q. But so at least the parts of the

5 conversation that you've testified to just now that

6 you asked Karen if she had been there from the

7 beginning of the period, Ms. Harper got that right,

8 correct?

9 A. I had already said that to Ms. Harper

10 previous to talking to Karen on the phone.

11 Q. Okay. But then you asked Karen that and

12 Karen said that she had been there from the beginning

13 of the period, right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And you asked Karen if she had signed in,

16 Karen said no. But you didn't tell -- is that right?

17 A. Yes. That is what -- I instructed Karen

18 to please sign in.

19 Q. But now you hadn't told Ms. Harper prior

20 to having the conversation with Karen --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- that Karen had not signed in or

23 anything like that, right?

24 A. Because I didn't know. That's why I asked

197

1 her.

2 Q. And then when you got back on the phone

3 with Ms. Harper, what did you tell her?

4 A. I told her that I had Karen sign in and

5 that she was there from the beginning of the period.

6 Q. So you did talk about Karen signing in

7 when you got back on the phone with Ms. Harper?

8 A. Yes. I told her that -- well, again, the

9 interpretation may have been different, but I told her

10 that I had her sign in, meaning then, at that time.

11 But perhaps Ms. Harper misunderstood how I spoke

12 that.

13 Q. So was that the sum total of the

14 conversation that you had with Karen while

15 Ms. Harper was on the phone?

16 A. I did say something to Karen where she,

17 again, she verified that she was there. And when she

18 said she hadn't signed in, I said, "Well, you need to

19 sign in." And I said, "Don't worry, I will cover for

20 you," meaning I will vouch for you because I have seen

21 you here since the beginning of the period.

22 Q. Did you say "I will vouch for you"?

23 A. I said I would cover for you, meaning I

24 would --

198

1 Q. I'm not asking what you meant by it.

2 A. Well, that's my interpretation.

3 Q. I'm asking you what you said.

4 A. I said "I will cover for you."

5 Q. And you said that to Karen?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And do you think it's appropriate to cover

8 for a student?

9 A. In the sense of vouching for a student.

10 That is how -- that is my interpretation of the word

11 "cover," not cover up.

12 Q. Did you say anything that sounded like

13 "I'll lie"?

14 A. I would never say that to a student. I

15 would never say that to a teacher.

16 Q. Did you tell Ms. Harper that Karen

17 signed in at 1:42?

18 A. Yes, I believe I -- well, I believe I said

19 when she, you know, at the end of the conversation

20 that I had her sign in at 1:42.

21 Q. So you told Ms. Harper that you had

22 Karen sign in at 1:42?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But your testimony is that what you really

199

1 meant was you had her put down 1:42?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But at 1:42, she didn't sign in, right?

4 A. No, she hadn't signed in then.

5 Q. All right. Now do you recall having a

6 meeting with Mr. Hollis?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. And after that meeting, he produced a

9 letter, correct?

10 A. What letter?

11 Q. A letter to you dated November 16th.

12 A. Yes, that letter.

13 Q. Then you had a rebuttal to that letter,

14 right?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. All right. I'm going to show you District

17 2 and District 3. District 2 is the letter dated

18 November 16th, 2009.

19 A. (Looks.)

20 Q. All right. Now, in District 2, Mr. Hollis

21 says, if you disagree with the characterization, let

22 him know. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you understood that and that's why you

200

1 wrote District 3, right?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Okay. So is what you put into District 3

4 all of the discrepancies that you had or all the

5 issues that you had with everything in District 2?

6 A. What do you mean by "all"?

7 Q. Well, I mean, you were instructed that if

8 you had any problems with the characterization of the

9 meeting, that you should let him know him, let

10 Mr. Hollis know?

11 A. I was adding to it, yes.

12 Q. So was District 3 you letting him know --

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. -- what you disagreed with, right?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Was there anything else other than what you

17 put into District 3 that you disagreed with?

18 A. No, not at the time.

19 Q. So if you take a look at District 2, in the

20 second paragraph, the second-to-last sentence, it says

21 "You did admit telling Ms. Harper that you saw

22 Karen had signed in at 1:42 p.m. even though she had

23 not." Do you see that?

24 MS. MAHONEY: That's the last sentence,

201

1 actually.

2 MR. NORTH: It is the last sentence.

3 Q. It's the first part of the last sentence.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Okay. And then the second part is, "and

7 you admitted telling Ms. Harper that you saw Karen

8 in the library since the start of the period, even

9 though you came by that information from speaking to

10 Karen, not from your personal observation." Do you

11 see that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. So it was that second part of that last

14 sentence that you disagreed with in your 11-24-09

15 statement, right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. But you didn't disagree with the first part

18 of that last sentence?

19 A. No, because I had told -- I told Karen to

20 sign in at 1:42, and I told Ms. Harper the second

21 time when I got back on the phone that I had her sign

22 in. That's how I said it.

23 Q. So your testimony now is that you had

24 Karen sign in while you were talking to her while you

202

1 were talking to Ms. Harper?

2 A. While Ms. Harper was still on the phone.

3 I mean, I wasn't speaking to her, the phone was put

4 down. So I instructed her to go around the desk and

5 sign in while Ms. Harper was still on the phone. So

6 when I got back on the phone, I told Ms. Harper,

7 Harper, that Karen had signed in --

8 Q. Did you ever --

9 A. -- at that moment.

10 Q. Did you ever tell that version to

11 Mr. Hollis in the meeting?

12 A. I thought it was clear in what, the way it

13 was written, but that was what I said.

14 Q. But when Mr. Hollis said in his letter,

15 "You did admit telling Ms. Harper that you saw

16 Karen had signed in at 1:42 p.m." Are you saying

17 that --

18 A. He may have written it incorrectly. I

19 remember, again, the way I have said it previous. I

20 told Ms. Harper the second time I got on the phone

21 to her that I had her sign in. I should have said

22 perhaps "she's signing in now," but I didn't. I just

23 said I had her sign, meaning at that point.

24 Q. All right. Now you heard Ms. Harper or

203

1 Ms. Harper' testimony, right?

2 A. Um-hum. Yes.

3 Q. And does Ms. Harper have any reason to lie

4 about you, to your understanding?

5 A. No, of course she wouldn't.

6 Q. Do you have any reason to believe she's not

7 a credible and truthful person?

8 A. Of course not.

9 Q. Do you have any ax to grind with her or she

10 with you that would lead her to misrepresent what you

11 said on the phone?

12 A. I would not believe that, no.

13 Q. And you did get a copy of your personnel

14 file, correct?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Now you were aware of the Monica Harper

17 October 30, '09 memo, right?

18 A. Which memo was that?

19 Q. This is the memo, District 1, which is the

20 -- you were aware that that memo existed, right?

21 A. I was aware that it existed. I've never

22 read it and I've never had a chance to read the whole

23 letter.

24 Q. And so when you went into your personnel

204

1 file, were you looking for this memo?

2 A. I was looking for anything pertaining to

3 this issue.

4 Q. But so you knew that this existed because

5 Mr. Hollis read it to you, right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Did you ever specifically ask for it?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. Now the items, when you looked at your

10 personnel file, all of the items that were listed as

11 prior discipline, were all those items in there?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. The five-day suspension, when you were --

14 you basically let the staff know that your position

15 had been cut to 75 percent, right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And you also told the staff that the

18 school's MEASC accreditation was in jeopardy, didn't

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that was never true, was it?

22 A. From my understanding, that's what I knew

23 to be true.

24 Q. But then your understanding became

205

1 something different, right?

2 A. I was told from the MEASC commission that

3 vocational high schools go under a different ruling.

4 Q. So the bottom line is that the

5 accreditation was not in jeopardy, right?

6 A. At that point, no.

7 Q. And the reason for the suspension was

8 because of your persistent delay in writing the e-mail

9 correcting information that turned out not to be true,

10 right?

11 A. I had written several versions and

12 submitted them.

13 Q. But the versions that you submitted were

14 not acceptable and you were told to submit a further

15 version, correct?

16 A. And I did. I submitted several versions.

17 Q. So are you saying that the basis for the

18 suspension was fictitious or?

19 A. No, I'm just saying that my versions or

20 the new versions that I had submitted were not

21 accepted.

206

13 (Brief recess.)

14 MR. ARBITRATOR: Back on the record.

15 Q. Okay. I just had one, I just want to

16 clarify one thing. You indicated in your earlier

17 testimony that one of the reasons you noticed Karen

18 when you came in is because she and another student

19 appeared to be in distress?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But you also testified that you just kept

22 going into your office to put away your lunch or

23 something, is that your testimony?

24 A. Do you want me to elaborate on that?

209

1 Q. First of all, I want to make sure I have

2 what you said right so far.

3 A. I passed by her, yes. I can elaborate if

4 you want on that.

5 Q. All right. Well, I mean, did you stop, did

6 you investigate --

7 A. Yes, I did stop.

8 Q. -- why they were in distress?

9 A. Well, it was still in between periods. The

10 bell had not rung. I could still see students going

11 past the glass doors. And I noticed, yes, that they

12 were both crying. And my habit is not to interrupt.

13 In that instance if it continued, perhaps I would

14 have. But as I passed by, I just said very gently,

15 "You need to move along to your next class." And then

16 I continued on. And that was it.

17 Q. But they didn't go anywhere at that point?

18 A. Well, when I came back, again, I was not in

19 the library, I was in my office area in the resource

20 area, so I did not see what was going on with them.

21 But Karen was the only student that was left. The

22 other student went on to her next class, I'm assuming.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. NORTH: I have nothing further.

210

2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

3 Q. Ms. Swenson, just so we're clear, did you

4 know when you picked up the phone to talk to the

5 person you learned to be Monica Harper on October

6 29, 2009, did you know that Ms. Harper had talked to

7 Karen?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. Were you called to the phone?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. When Ms. Harper was inquiring as to your,

12 as to Karen's arrival time or if she had been in the

13 library since the beginning of the period, did you

14 have any sense that you shared or had any of your own

15 responsibility for Karen and her whereabouts at that

16 point in time?

17 A. Yes, I did. I was concerned with, again,

18 her safety and that's what I was trying to assure

19 Ms. Harper or Harper, that the student had been here

20 all along and it was, and she was okay.

21 Q. And does your responsibility for students

22 -- strike that.

23 Does the library sign-in sheet have, relate in

24 any way to your responsibility for students?

211

1 A. It serves as a record. That's the best I

2 can say. Am I responsible? I suppose if they're in

3 the library, yes. If something happens, yes, in some

4 way I am responsible.

5 Q. So is that why you wanted Karen to sign

6 in?

7 A. Yes. As a record to, again, to assure

8 everyone that she had been here the whole time and

9 that I was watching over her.

10 Q. Okay. Were you -- were there other people

11 in the library at the time that you were on the phone

12 with Ms. Harper?

13 A. Yes. Kathy Lanier was also in the library

14 office. She was the one who originally took the

15 call. Donna Thomas, who is a SPED liaison teacher

16 was on the other side of the aisle, the corridor,

17 supposedly to work with Karen. But they were the

18 only ones that I saw.

19 Q. And when you were talking with Karen, I

20 think you testified you put the phone down?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where was the phone, was the phone on the

23 desk?

24 A. The phone was on the desk, yes.

212

1 Q. In the library office?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. And Kathy was at her desk in the library

4 office?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was the phone on Kathy's desk or your

7 desk?

8 A. It was on my desk.

9 Q. But you were not at your desk when the call

10 came in. Do I understand that correctly?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Do you recall where you were when the call

13 came in? Do you have any knowledge as to where you

14 were?

15 A. I believe -- again, this all happened very

16 quickly. I believe I was still in the teacher's

17 resource room.

18 Q. Adjacent to the office?

19 A. Adjacent to the office, yes.

20 Q. Do you recall saying, "I had" -- that you

21 told Ms. Harper that you had Karen sign in at 1:42?

22 A. I do believe I said something like that,

23 yes.

24 Q. What did you mean by "at"?

213

1 A. Only that that was the beginning of the

2 period, of that particular period. And that's when my

3 responsibility should begin with a student, at the

4 beginning of that period.

5 Q. Did you -- by saying "at 1:42" did you

6 intend to convey to Ms. Harper that Karen had, the

7 moment at which Karen picked up the pen and signed

8 her name and entered the time was 1:42?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. What was it that you were intending

11 to convey to Ms. Harper?

12 A. Only that she was, that I had, in fact,

13 seen her since 1:42 and earlier and that Karen was in

14 the library since the beginning of that period. It

15 documents the beginning of that period only.

16 Q. Okay. Turning your attention to the letter

17 of November 16th, if you've got that in front of you.

18 It's District 2. In that last sentence of the second

19 paragraph where it says "You did admit telling

20 Ms. Harper that" --

21 A. (Looks.) Sorry, wrong one.

22 Q. Got it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It says, "You did admit telling

214

1 Ms. Harper that you saw Karen had signed in at

2 1:42." Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And when Mr. North was asking you

5 questions, you recall Mr. North asking you questions

6 about that part of the sentence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When Mr. Hollis gave you this letter and

9 invited you to disagree with any of his

10 characterizations, did you appreciate the importance

11 of the word "saw" in that phrase?

12 A. It didn't hit me at that time, no.

13 Q. What did you think was important about

14 this, that phrase?

15 A. That she had signed in at 1:42.

16 Q. Okay. And that is, in fact, the case,

17 right?

18 A. That's right. And that I had asked her to

19 sign in. That was my interpretation of that

20 sentence.

21 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have any further

22 questions. Thank you.

23 MR. NORTH: I actually do have a couple

24 more.

215

2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. NORTH:

3 Q. So when you had Karen sign in, you had her

4 write "1:42" on the log even though it was after 1:42,

5 is that what you're saying?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. It's fair to say that normally when people

8 sign in on a log, they sign in the time that they're

9 -- that it is at the time they sign?

10 A. Not necessarily. Unfortunately, students

11 come by without signing in all the time. And I will

12 catch them down in the computer lab or someplace else

13 and I'll say to them, "Go back and sign in when you

14 came in."

15 Q. Okay. So you encourage them to, in essence

16 -- well, you encourage them to sign in and write down

17 a different time than the current time at the time

18 they're signing in?

19 A. I ask them to sign in when they came in,

20 entered the library. And so the time they came into

21 the library is the exact time, not when they're

22 sitting -- not when I have to get them to come back

23 and sign.

216

3 MR. NORTH: Okay. Nothing further.

4 MS. MAHONEY: If I may.

5 MR. ARBITRATOR: Sure.

7 REREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. MAHONEY:

8 Q. Ms. Swenson, could you just refer to

9 what's in evidence as Swenson 4. It's the log.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you see the column, third from the

12 right, that says "Time in"?

13 A. Um-hum.

14 Q. Is that a yes?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. This is the library sign-in log, is it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when in the column that says "Time In"

19 what kind of information is it your understanding that

20 the log is looking for?

21 A. When they come into the library.

22 Q. Is it looking for when they've signed the

23 log or when they've come into the library?

24 A. Just when they've come into the library.

220

14 Q. Did anybody ever suggest that it's

15 inappropriate to record the time that students arrive

16 in the library and that actually what should be

17 recorded is the moment at which they sign in,

18 regardless of what time they arrive?

19 A. No, it is not.

20 Q. Nobody ever suggested that to you?

21 A. Nope.

22 Q. Even during this process?

23 A. Nope.

24 Q. Relating to the events of October 29, 2009,

222

1 nobody ever said that to you?

2 A. No. They're interested in students signing

3 in.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MS. MAHONEY: I don't have anything

6 further. Thank you.

7 MR. NORTH: All set.

8 MR. ARBITRATOR: All set. Okay. With

9 nothing further, I guess we'll close the hearing.