Victim Impact(Sociology)
mathew_vazquez
Assignment1.2.pdf
Transcript: Sentencing the Victim
Joanna Katz
He had me. You know. Whether I tried to do something or whether I just
stood there, he had me, and that was it. That was the beginning of a
really -- that was a rude awakening to how evil people can be.
[theme music]
Joanna Katz
That night I decided to go out. It was a Friday night. I had to work on
Saturday, so I wasn't going to go out for very long. Went out with a
friend of mine from work. He and I drove separate cars. Followed him
out there and hung out with some friends. It just got really late,
and I had to get up in the morning and go to work. I mean, I don't
think I got out of there till about 2 o'clock in the morning, and I was
like, "Oh, my gosh, "I've got to get home. It's just so late." There
was another girl there that we had a lot of friends in common. We
didn't know each other well, but we'd been chatting all night long and
just laughing. We decided to go ahead and just walk each other out. We
thought it'd be safe. Everybody else was still wanting to stay there,
so we walked each other out.
Male speaker/parole board
Number 44.
Female speaker/parole board
Number 44, Jerry L. Smith. He has opposition appearing...Joanna Katz,
the victim. He also has petitions and letters, somewhere around 8,000
of them, opposing his parole.
Joanna Katz
This guy just came up in the middle of nowhere. I didn't even see him
coming. Next thing I knew, he was squatting beside me, and I felt
something in my ribs. I was like, "Why is this guy putting his finger
in my ribs?" I thought he was just some fruit loop that was just
bugging me for some reason. I kept staring up at Julie, who was sitting
in the car seat on the driver's side. I looked up at her, and I saw a
look on her face that I didn't register. So when I finally turned,
I heard him say--well, I kept looking at her, and he said, "You better
get in the car, or I'm going to kill you." I was thinking, Now why is
this guy putting his finger in my rib? I think this is some kind
of a joke. Maybe it's a friend of mine. When I turned around,
it was not a friend of mine. It was a total stranger.
Dr. Sidney Katz
One of the things that if I could ever take it back--and I know I'll
never be able to take it back -- was very soon after the incident.
She was in the bathroom either brushing her teeth or washing her face
or something, and I guess it was just praying on my mind, and I said to
her, "Joanna Katz, you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time."
As the words came out of my mouth...shut up. You know, why are you
saying that? Parents have to know that it doesn't matter whether she
was in the wrong place, whether it was the wrong time, whether she was
wearing the wrong clothes, or she said the wrong word. They're not at
fault. No woman is at fault.
Joanna Katz
It was clear that this guy was... he was dangerous. He was threatening.
I didn't understand why he was so shaky until I looked down, and
instead of a finger, it was a pistol. I think that was it. That moment,
that was like... one of the biggest turning points of my life.
Male parole board member
We appreciate you all coming in. We're very sorry about the
circumstances. We have heard Mr. Smith. He has been rejected.
You'll be notified before he comes up again.
Joanna Katz
You might not understand this as well, because there's three coming up
this year. There's two coming up next year. For me, sir, that makes it
every year that I have to come up and oppose. It's been very, very
difficult since the trial.
Parole board member
Even though it's every two years, you still have to come every year
because of when and how they're being scheduled.
Joanna Katz
Yes, sir.
Female speaker
Three times in one year, two in another.
Joanna Katz
This is why I came here today, just to address the board. I understand
that you don't make the laws, I understand it's on the legislature, but
I do have -- I felt a need to come here and at least let you know that
these people will be coming to you continuously.
Joanna Katz
When we finally got to where we were going, he told her to stop. There
was some guy waiting. He got out of the car, ordered us to stay in.
They started talking over the hood, and I couldn't understand what they
were saying. Next thing I know, I'm thinking, These people--okay,
they're are going to rape us in the car. Well, that's just great.
Whatever it is they're going to do, whatever it is, God, just get it
over with. I'm thinking, Maybe they just want to take my pants so I
don't have to run off, you know, so I won't run off. Maybe they'll just
take my money. I know they can't just possibly just rape me and then--
maybe they just want the money. He's obviously on drugs. He just wants
some coke. Fine, whatever. I hope that--you know, he could take my
pants, and that way I'll have to run down the street humiliated with no
pants. But they wanted to take us inside this house.
Prosecutor Jack Sinclaire
It doesn't sound like it's real. It doesn't sound like it could have
happened. There's no way anybody would have or could have predicted
how bad it was going to be.
Male parole board member
Nice to have you all with us. We're very sorry about the circumstances.
We've heard Mr. Donovan. He has been rejected. You'll be notified
before he comes again. You're welcome to come back at that time.
If you'd like to make a statement, you may, but it's not necessary.
He has, indeed, been rejected today.
Joanna Katz
This other guy took Julie out of the front seat. The guy with the gun
took me after them, and I remember literally pulling, pulling, digging
my heels into the ground, and he just had so much power over me...
I mean, just pulling me, dragging me across the ground. I just knew the
neighbors had to be seeing this, and nobody did anything. Nobody did
anything.
Male parole board member
We've heard Mr. Smith. He has been rejected. You'll be notified before
he comes up again. You're welcome to come back at that time. Once
again, we thank you very much for coming in. Reasons 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.
Joanna Katz
They got me into this house. I thought it was going to be a house.
It ended up being an abandoned, old, broken-down, vacant house. It's a
vacant project house...cement floor, broken glass, wood pieces
everywhere. What this other guy did, the second guy took Julie
into a room and shut the door. I heard Julie screaming. This guy kept
rubbing my back and telling me everything was going to be okay.
[insects chirping]
Joanna Katz
Then this third guy shows up. They know each other. They start
chatting. "Everything's going to be okay. "Why don't you go ahead
and start with him." "Start what with him?" "You know... just use your
hand." "Excuse me?" Then when I see what the guy's doing, I get it.
Detective Georgia Meloy
Sexual assault is brutal, and if there's any question about whether or
not this was a crime of sex or a crime of power, this was a crime of
power with sex used as the weapon.
Joanna Katz
After a while, the gunman tells me and orders the guy, the third man,
to come with him. We go where Julie and the second guy was. When I walk
in, I see what he's doing to her. He's raping her, and... and I can't
look.
Female parole board member
Case Number 34, Lydell Harley. He had opposition appearing... Joanna
Katz, the victim in this case. He also has a strong letter of
opposition from the victim, her family and friends, and also petitions.
Male parole board member
Y'all state your name for the record, please. Diane Katz. Joanna Katz.
Sid Katz. Jack Sinclaire. Isiah Choice.
Male parole board member
You're all in here to oppose the parole of Lydell Harley. We have heard
Lydell Harley, and he has been rejected. You all will be notified
before he comes up again. If you'd like to make a statement, you may.
If not, we thank you for coming in.
Joanna Katz
I'm devastated. I'm horrified. I mean, there's nothing I can do. I
feel totally helpless. I'm just like, Julie, God, I don't know what to
do. You know, so....Then it hits me, Oh...oh, yeah,it's going to happen
to me. Okay. So I'm desperately thinking what do to. I haven't given up
yet, and I say, "I know what you're "thinking, but I feel like it's
"my godly duty to let you know that I have HIV." I don't know where
this story comes from, but I tell them this. I know that it's a sick
thing to do, but you do whatever you can. I tell them that I felt that
it was my duty by God to let them know... "I don't care how much you
"hurt me. "It's my duty to let you know "that you could get yourself--
put yourself in danger." At this point, I've really pissed them off.
I really made them very angry by telling them that I had AIDS.
Female speaker/parole board
Case Number 68, Stanley Harley.
Male parole board member
We have heard Stanley Harley. He has been rejected. You all will be
notified before he comes up again. Thank you for coming in. If you'd
like to make a statement, you may, but it's not necessary.
Male speaker/parole board
Thank you.
Female speaker #2/parole board
Joanna Katz wanted to make a brief statement, sir.
Joanna Katz
I understand this is the second time that you've seen me this morning,
obviously. Since I was informed that this does go on the record when I
do make a statement, I wanted you to use this for future reference.
Diane Katz
The parole board may know that there's very little chance of them
getting paroled at this point, but when Joanna Katz gets up on the
morning of each parole hearing, she doesn't know. She's not sure
whether they're going to be out on the street again...or not.
For her, it's still a terrible fear that she has. And to a degree, for
us too. The thing that we fear most is when they get out.
Joanna Katz
Meanwhile, the third guy didn't know what was going on. He had gone
somewhere. When he came back in the room, I was ordered to give him
oral sex. I was confused at this point because I thought, Well,
certainly they're not going to do that to him...I thought they were
friends...thinking that they were going to put him in danger, but
obviously they didn't care. So under gunpoint to my head, I did what I
was told. I was told if I got sick that I would get shot. That was
hard, because I did get sick, and I didn't let them know.
Joanna Katz
I wanted to make sure that you understood that this man that I'm
opposing, Stanley Harley, did, in fact, threaten me with my life. He
did physically choke me and threaten me with my life at that time.
I know that the person that we opposed an hour ago, Lydell Harley, used
a gun while this man assaulted me. I just wanted to go on record and
make sure that you do have this information.
Male parole board member
We thank you so much for sharing that. Stanley Harley is rejected.
Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.
Female speaker
The next case is Number 49....
Joanna Katz
There were then four people other than me and Julie. Another guy had
appeared. He was told that he could do whatever he wanted to Julie...
"Help yourself," didn't matter, "I'll help you." "Hey, you, since you
have AIDS, "why don't you sit down "and watch what happens to her.
"She's going to get it all. "No, no, no..."I mean, it's your fault.
You just sit and watch."
So I sat in that corner, and I looked at the floor. A couple times I
was told to snap my head up. "Look...don't quit looking." So...I
just...I prayed to God to somehow either just kill me, kill her,
just get us out of here somehow. I couldn't possibly bear to watch this
any more. At that point, I was ready just to go. It was like he had
read my mind. The second guy was sitting across the way from me,
squatting the same way I was against the wall... and he had the gun.
It was as though he had read my mind. He said, "Hey, you want to die?"
I just looked at him. I could barely see him.
He said, "You ready?" He pointed the gun at me, and he'd count. Then he
pulled the trigger, and there weren't any bullets in it. All the guys
thought that was really funny. He probably did that about five times
throughout the night. He was entertaining his friends. The last time he
did it, I'd had it. So when he asked me again, "Hey, you want to die?"
I finally said, "Yeah."
Jack Sinclaire
It's the worst crime I've ever prosecuted, absent a capital murder.
Short of killing these girls -- and keep in mind, that's what Joanna
Katz was begging for at the end of the night. That's what she was
saying, "Just kill me." And it was Julie trying to talk Joanna Katz out
of saying that. But that's what these guys did through the course of
their actions. They took away from her her will to live.
Joanna Katz
At this point, he gets up, and he heads right towards me, marches up to
me, grabs my face, puts the gun to my temple, and he says, "I think
"that somebody with AIDS doesn't deserve to live." I said, "Then shoot
me." At this point, Julie yelled out, and he said, "You want me to?"
I looked right at him, and I said, "Yeah." Before I knew it, I heard
this loud...this loud noise, and I felt my head whip around, and I
heard Julie screaming out. Then I wasn't moving anymore. I thought that
I was still standing up, but I was wondering why I felt something wet
dripping towards the back of my head. It was a really weird feeling.
It was a really weird feeling to be dying.
Male parole board member
Y'all have a seat, please, and state your name for the record.
Diane Katz
Diane Katz
Joanna Katz
Joanna Katz
Sid Katz
Sid Katz
Gayle Fleming
My name's Gayle Fleming
Male parole board member
You're all in here to oppose the parole of Jerry Smith.
Gayle Fleming
Yes, sir, we are.
Male parole board member We have heard Jerry Smith, and he has been
rejected. You all will notified before he comes up again. If you'd like
to make a statement, you may.
Joanna Katz
I just wanted to state that there were four other men convicted of this
crime of sexually assaulting and torturing me and another female
acquaintance that night on June 16, 1988. They're also serving
approximately the same amount of time as Jerry Lewis Smith in prison
and will also be coming up for a different parole hearing, each one
this year and the year following, which me and my family will also be
attending.
Diane Katz
In the beginning, they were scheduled to come up one at a time, which
meant that she would have to go up three times one year and two times
the next year, alternating years. They managed to put two of them
together, so that now she goes up...three times every two years
for the five people.
Georgia Meloy
I realize that the prisoners have some rights, but in cases like this
where there are multiple perpetrators, I think it would be helpful to
the victim that at least everything be scheduled at the same time if
they have to make a trip, and not have to continuously make multiple
trips back and forth to where the parole hearings are held. I
understand that the parole for each person is determined separately,
that it depends on their behavior in prison, but I still believe that
it could be separate hearings on the same day.
Gayle Fleming
Okay, he was rejected 1, 2, 3, and 4...same reasons he was rejected the
last time. The plus side is, he sounds like he's been doing pretty good
in prison.
Joanna Katz
Then it hit me that this is what my parents were going to hear. They
were going to hear how I died. They were going to find me somewhere...
I was murdered. Then I was just so scared. It was like, Oh, my God,
wait a minute...I'm not ready to go. You know, I'm not ready to--
that's ridiculous...how can I possibly let these people do this to me?
How could I have just sat there and told him to kill me. I can't
believe I just did this. At that point, you know, I was praying hard,
as hard as I could. I was just like, God, just please don't let my
father have a heart attack. Don't this ruin them. Don't let them think
this is-- they're going to think it's their fault. I just know they're
going to think this, and they're never going to forgive themselves.
They're going to be so torn up. And my brother and all these people
that I love...I started thinking about all of them. It was like inside,
whatever this experience was I was in, I got on my knees, and I was
just like, God, please just take care of everybody. Before I knew it,
I felt like somebody-- I don't know what it was-- something was like,
Snap out of it, you're not dead... calm down, shut your mouth...you
know, stop. I finally stopped and realized that there was something
holding me up, saying, Look...you're not going anywhere, it's okay...
we're going to take care of you. It was probably one of the...
the most peaceful experiences in my life.
Joanna Katz
I guess what was weird was that a couple of my good friends knew that I
was going to this thing today. I guess I made the mistake-- I don't
know if it's a mistake-- but hanging out with them before sometimes
when they know what's going on, it's almost like they're more concerned
about it than I want to be. So it gets brought up, and then nighttime
comes, and I get phone calls and "I just want to let you know I'm
thinking about you." It's all with good intention, and I mean, I love
that they love me and care about me, but sometimes I just want to
pretend like I'm not going to do anything but go to work the next day.
Then when I get up at 6 a.m. and when I go to Columbia, that's when I
can deal with it. You know, I just-- I couldn't sleep all night long.
Joanna Katz
What had happened was, he had turned the gun around so quickly and hit
me with the butt...and knocked me unconscious, which explains why I
heard the loud bang, which is why I bled, which is why I fell. I
remember later when I talked to Julie, she said, "It was so loud,
it sounded just like a gunshot."
Georgia Meloy
I think it was different because of the brutality that was involved and
the fact that usually when there's sexual assaults that are that
violent, your victims are dead.
Joanna Katz
What was interesting was that when I finally woke up, I came to...
one of these creeps were on top of me. It was like one minute,
I felt somebody open my eye and shine something at it, saying,
"She's not going to make it. "Man, she's not going to make it." I just
remember going, I'm going to make it. Yeah, I am. These angels just
told me I was going to make it, so screw you...that's okay. Then the
next minute I was out again, and then the next minute somebody else
was, "I know you're awake, bitch," and he was raping me.
Joanna Katz
I don't know. I really relied on Gayle a lot. I'm kind of wigging out!
I'm going to call the solicitor's office and find out where she is.
Jack Sinclaire
Rape is such a strange crime. There are parents still out there that
would advise their daughters, You just need to put this behind you.
You just need to move on. Just forget about it. That's who's given you
advice all your life, and that's the advice that you most likely would
follow if that's the kind of parents that you have. That's just the
nature of this horribly intimate, violent crime. Joanna Katz's parents
went the other way, which is good for all of us. They're rocks.
Joanna Katz
What happened next was there was a lot litigating, disagreeing going on
between the men about what to do with our bodies...which I didn't
comprehend at that point. I just was...I didn't understand why they
were talking about that. We were led out into the big, open room in the
front. Then we were told to face the wall. In this room, the windows
were boarded up from the outside, so when I faced this wall and these
windows, I saw the reflection of this guy behind us...picking out which
one he wanted to shoot first.
Female speaker
Let's give him to ten, okay? Okay, that's fine.
Joanna Katz
So what else this morning? I really don't feel like talking today. I
just don't even have the energy. I guess some days I'm on and some days
I'm not. I'm just not on today.
Female speaker
You didn't get any sleep last night.
Joanna Katz
I'm just not in the mood. I'm just not in the mood. I'm not in the mood
to be big, bad Joanna Katz today...sorry. I just want to hear them say
they're denied and go home.
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
These survivors have gone through so much to get on with their life,
and every time they have to go back, it's like they're having to relive
everything that they've done, that's been done to them in the past.
It's really difficult. They shouldn't have to do that. Unfortunately,
in our justice system, you have to do that to keep the person behind
bars the amount of time that they should be there.
Sidney Katz
What has to be understood is that when they sentence an offender,
they're essentially sentencing the victim and the victims' families, as
well. The victim and the victims' families are certainly not in prison,
but in a way, it is sort of a prison. It's sort of a virtual prison
because one is almost obliged--as long as they're in jail behind bars
and as long as they come up for parole, we're sharing that sentence
with them.
Male parole board member
Y'all have a seat. Do you have somebody else coming in?
Female speaker
No, sir.
Parole board member
If you all will, state your name for the record, please.
Jack Sinclaire
Jack Sinclaire. That's s-i-n-c-l-a-i-r-e. I'm the Ninth Circuit deputy
solicitor.
Joanna Katz
Joanna Katz
Diane Katz
Diane Katz
Sidney Katz
Sidney Katz
Parole board member
I'm glad to have you all. You all are in here to oppose the parole of
Nathan Donovan. We have heard Nathan Donovan, and he has been rejected.
You will be notified before he comes up again. If you'd like to make
a statement, you may. If not, we thank you all for appearing.
Jack Sinclaire
It seems to me that there--well, first off, let me impress on you about
the facts about Nathan Donovan, and I do this with the feeling that I'm
wasting your time. I get the feeling that everything I say is a waste
of your time and maybe even a waste of these peoples' time, as well,
because you've given us what we want, so why should I say anything?
Well, I need to say something because we're back here again two years
later.
Jack Sinclaire (VO)
They actually discourage her from making a personal appeal to their
sense of justice, sense of doing the right thing. You go in there, you
sit down, we state our names for the record, and before we even make
our plea to them to do the right thing, they say, "We've already denied
parole." You feel, Why would I make an impassioned plea to these people
when, effectively, for this guy it will be two more years before they
consider his parole eligibility again, and they will have forgotten it
by then? Very strange.
Joanna Katz
He said, "Okay, y'all are ready to go home now?" I didn't say anything,
and Julie didn't say anything. Then one of the guys said..."No, man,
this is crazy. "You can't do this. Don't do this." He started yelling
at him,"I'll do you too...” "I'll do you too! Get out of the way!"
"No, no, no, you don't want to do this." "Get out of the way...I'm
going to kill you too!" They backed off. He aimed again. I remember, I
just closed my eyes and said, Just relax... just let the bullet go
through.
Male parole board member
Thank you all for taking the time to come in, and I promise that we
have that on his record, and this board does take all that into
consideration. You all do have an impact by coming...don't think you
don't.
Jack Sinclaire
So we won't do it again a second time, let me just bring something else
to y'all's attention that is a concern of ours. That's that I believe
that y'all have the capability to lessen the annual impact on Joanna
Katz. You passed a law in 1986 that says victims of violent crimes now
only have to come to parole hearings every two years. So they tell
Joanna Katz, Hey, you've been raped, but the good news is you've only
got to come and appear every two years. Then they turn around and say,
No, you were gang raped, so you have to come every year.
Jack Sinclaire (VO)
We have lobbied with the parole board on a number of different
occasions. I go up there, and I tell them, Why can't we do a couple of
things? We consent-- Joanna Katz, Julie, and I-- we consent that every
one of these guys that aren't entitled to a parole hearing for another
two years, we're going to give them all, next year, a parole hearing.
Give them the benefit of an additional parole hearing early on so that
they're once again on the same thing so she can only have to drive to
Columbia every two years. Won't do it.
Joanna Katz
This happened over and over again...guys would come up, stand in his
way, he'd yell at them, get back out of his way. "Okay, gather them up
and put them in the back room again." Dragged us into the back room
again. It was this huge game. Put me against the wall, sat up against
the wall, kicked my head against the wall. "Stupid, you had to fight,
"didn't you? "It's your fault... it's your fault." This was the second
guy, the one that hit me in the first place. The more he hit me, the
more excited the guys got. "Tell him to stop... she's had enough." As
one of them grabbed him, he took the gun again, and he whacked me on
the top of the head.
Male parole board member
I'm not sure that anything can be done, but you need to contact
somebody down there-- a legislator, Glen McConnell, possibly Charlie
Condon-- and let them know this thing should be done to where these
guys come up in the same period.
Joanna Katz
We have sent letters.
Jack Sinclaire
I believe we've sort of touched on this in the past. We've got this
kind of advice before, and I have worked through our victim advocate
in the Ninth Circuit towards getting these goals. The way I see y'all,
as the parole board, as a collective voice, you could do a lot more
than my victim advocate or my voice to Charlie Condon and to the
legislature. I think as the collective voice, as the jury who decides
what's going to happen, what laws are going to be changed, I think the
impact is far greater coming from you if that's your decision.
Jack Sinclaire
I'm just sick of it. They told us that last time, "Go talk to somebody
else." These people are appointed by powerful people.
Sidney Katz
I was going to say it doesn't start the night that she goes to bed
and wakes up the next morning. It starts as soon as we walk out that
door. It starts all over again.
Diane Katz
Till the next one.
[no audio]
Joanna Katz
We were finally taken out with the shirts on our heads, taken through
the yard, taken to her car, put in the back seat, taken out of the back
seat, put in the back seat again. Finally, I was taken out, and Julie
was left. A guy walked behind me, marched me back to the house.
"I'm a police officer. Don't say anything. I'm going to walk you back
in this house. I want you to tell me everything they did to you." He
walked me into the house. He said, "Now tell me what they did," and he
undid my belt.
Male parole board member
You all are in here to oppose the parole of Johnny Smith. We have heard
Johnny Smith, and he has been rejected. If you'd like to make a
statement, you may. If not, he has been rejected. Jack, anything you'd
like to bring up?
Jack Sinclaire
The only thing specifically on Mr. Johnny Nathaniel Smith is that he is
the ringleader.
Joanna Katz
At this point, this guy that had raped me while I was laying down came
up to him, grabbed him off of me before he could do anything and said,
"She's had enough, man. Get off of her." He said, "Come on, I'm getting
you out of here right now." Grabbed me and walked me out of the house,
walked me to the side of the building. "I'll bring her right back."
That's what he said to the guys. They were still sitting in the car
with Julie in it. He walked me out this alleyway that leads down to the
street. As he's talking to me, I'm taking small steps backwards. Then
he said, "You're coming back with me." He grabbed my wrist, and he
said, "Come on." When I finally--I realized he didn't have a gun--
shook his wrist off of me..."You want to, you shoot me. I'm going to
walk now." I turned around, and all I saw at first was the yellow line.
I said, If I could just make it to the yellow line, I'll be home free.
This guy just let me walk. He just watched me, and he walked about 15
feet behind me. The streets were empty. It was about 6 30. I walked
down the yellow line. I was going towards the grocery store. I said, "I
got to find somebody." Taxicab went by...the man looked at me like I'd
lost my mind. Had blood all over me, had an undershirt on, had my
overshirt on my head, and I stared at him as he drove by. He didn't
stop...looked at me like I was crazy, kept going. I walked down that
yellow line with my socks dragging off my feet, and when I turned
round, he was gone. When I looked up, the bag boy was being dropped off
to work, and I followed him, and when he got to the top of the stairs I
said, "Excuse me." He turned around and said, "Oh, my God...oh, my God,
what happened to you?"
Georgia Meloy
They were en route to kill her. She had had a gun held to her head and
dry-fired against her temple. She was tucked in the back seat of that
car while they discussed how they were going to kill her. They were
talking about taking her and throwing her in the water, or they went to
a house of friends looking for a shotgun.
Jack Sinclaire
Some guy comes out to the car, says, "I'll kill her. "Hell, I wasn't
involved in the rape of these girls...they'll never tie this murder
to me." Then for some reason, he's just not capable of carrying
through. She hears that. They get back in the car, and the next thing
she hears is two of the guys that are in the car with her talking
amongst themselves, saying, "Is he still behind us? Is he still behind
us?" "Yeah."
Joanna Katz
It came over the CB that they found this car, two young men in it,
parked. "We're going to approach the car now."
"Well, Julie's in the car."
"No, she's not...there's no female spotted."
"Well, she's in there. She's on the floorboard. I saw them put her on
the floorboard."
"Well, she's not there."
At that point, the chase ensued. The guy got in the car, "Strap
yourself in...we're going for a ride."
Jack Sinclaire
It got into a high-speed chase with the victim still facedown in the
back, head on the floorboard, in a high-speed chase all the way out I-
26 from the city of Charleston where the car finally was run off the
road and slammed into a bunch of trees out there.
Joanna Katz
I looked back...all this traffic is blocked, jammed for at least
a half a mile. I look ahead, and there was like 20 million blue lights
all over the place, and I'm crying, and my head's down. It's all my
fault...it's all my fault. It's all my fault that they raped the heck
out of her. It's all my fault that she's dead because I had to call the
police. I'm sniffling, and I'm crying, and I look up and I see this
little girl coming, walking down the side of the road towards the car.
I'm like...No, you know. Then I see behind her a policeman with a
shotgun over his shoulder, and I get out of the car, and I lean against
the door, and I'm looking harder. I see this girl, and she just starts
running, starts running towards me. I'm like, Wow! Cool, you know. And,
uh...yeah....It was good to see that I had done something right.
[theme music]
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
One of the biggest things I remember is after I talked to the police,
walking up, there was a girl standing in the hallway holding a towel
just absolutely soaked in blood. She was bleeding about her head and
face, and just remembering walking up to her and seeing her like that
was very disturbing.
Joanna Katz
This woman appeared and just said, "I need her. I need in this room.
I need her alone. Give me a couple of minutes."
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
First thing I ask her is, "Is there anyone I can call for you?"
Of course, you want her parents called and some friends. Mainly, you
want to get someone there, also, that can be support that they feel
comfortable with.
Joanna Katz
I think the most important thing was that this woman was the person
that was going to represent this horrible incident to my parents.
Diane Katz
The doorbell rang, and it was Reuben Greenberg, the chief of police. He
told me what had happened to a degree. Didn't tell me the whole story,
but he did say that Joanna was in the hospital, and so he took me
down to the hospital. At that point, I was just numb and shocked. It
was just something that you don't expect to ever hear. I was terribly
concerned about Joanna and what condition she was in.
Joanna Katz
By the time they took me over to the worst part, which was going to be
taking me over to the examination table and collect evidence and take
pictures, and my mother walks in. I can't imagine...what she must have
felt when she walked in. It was like I didn't want her there.
I did not want her to see her daughter looking like this.
Diane Katz
To me, she looked beautiful. Just the fact that she was there and was
physically all together, that was such a huge relief.
Joanna Katz
It was so weird because she could not have remained more calm. I have
no idea what Sherry told her before she walked in that room, but Mom,
however she must have been feeling, just was very good at covering it.
Georgia Meloy
Going to the hospital with victims is always very draining.
You have to be able to deal with being in the room with the mother,
undergoing medical examinations, and to not show any kind of disgust or
surprise when you hear what they've said to you, because if you
indicate that something that they're saying is distasteful to you,
they're not going to tell you the truth. You have to sit there while
they tell you the horrendous things that have happened and not react to
it and just write it down and continue to comfort them and talk to them
and be supportive.
Sidney Katz
You called me from the hospital and told me that Joanna Katz had been
raped and beaten. So I went to the hospital, and that's where we met.
Diane Katz
She was already in the room.
Sidney Katz
She was already in the room when I got there.
Joanna Katz
I remember my mother, it was like 5 o'clock at night, but it seemed
like maybe 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I don't remember...it was so
vague. I just remember my mother helping me bathe, and it was like the
first time since I was just that little baby, you know. Then I got out
of the tub, and I made a big mistake. I looked in the mirror...
saw my eye...and my head. I felt so--I just didn't even recognize
myself. I had never seen myself beat up. It was really traumatic. I
think it wasn't the fact that--what I looked like. It was the fact that
my mother saw me like this when she walked in. I never told her that
was the reason why I got upset. She just thought I was just upset
because I looked ugly, because I had a black eye and a red, you know...
all my blood vessels were popped. That wasn't it. I kept worrying about
what she saw, how much it must have traumatized her. I felt like they
raped her.
[no audio]
Diane Katz
I still get...
Joanna Katz
Why don't we let Jack go in first?
Jack Sinclaire
Good morning. How are y'all today?
Male parole board member
Y'all are here to oppose the parole of Nathan Donovan. We have heard
Mr. Donovan, and he has been rejected today. Thank you so much for
coming in, and we are sorry about the circumstances. But he is rejected
today. If you want to say something, you are welcome to, but he's
rejected.
Jack Sinclaire
I'm not sure how many more times I'm going to be able to come back up
here, so if I could take a couple of minutes of your time, I'd like to
talk to you about this. First off, I want to make sure that each and
every one of you have a copy of the two girls' statements.
Female parole board member
I have a question. At the time this crime was committed, was 30 years
the maximum penalty these defendants could have received?
Jack Sinclaire
The maximum penalty for criminal sexual conduct in the first degree was
30 years. Burglary in the second degree was 15, burglary in...
Female parole board member
So my question is, was this a plea, or did these people go to trial?
Jack Sinclaire
Four of the five individuals involved in this case pled guilty.
Jack Sinclaire (VO)
Our main goal was to get as much time as we possibly could. To do that,
we had to negotiate deals because we couldn't make Joanna Katz and
Julie endure six trials.
Georgia Meloy
Anytime we can take a plea with substantial jail time, it's worth
taking...solely on what it spares the victim.
Female parole board member
This 30-year sentence was the result of a plea agreement?
Jack Sinclaire
That's correct, and the plea agreement was a result of the fact that in
Charleston, or in all the states in this country, you can't use
codefendants' statements against the others. The problem with the
prosecution of each of the defendants, as you may already know, there's
the United States versus Bruton. It's a United States Supreme Court
case that doesn't allow the state to use statements of a codefendant
who doesn't testify against another codefendant. Under the 6th
Amendment of the United States Constitution, it's called the
Confrontation Clause. People charged with a crime have a right to
confront the witnesses against them. You cannot confront a written
statement. You can only confront the individual who made the statement.
So we can't use the statement of Johnny Nathaniel Smith in the trial
against Nathan Donovan, and we can't use Nathan Donovan's statement
where he says, "It was Lydell and Johnny that were doing all the
raping, not me," only the defendant. And to get a defendant on the
stand, you have to cut a deal. I'm not sure I understand the motivation
behind your question, and I'd like to find that out so that I can
address any concerns that you might have.
Female parole board member
I'm just shocked with a crime of this magnitude that 30 years was the
maximum sentence they received.
Jack Sinclaire
We wanted the maximum penalty we could get based on the evidence that
we had.
Male parole board member
We thank all of you for coming.
Jack Sinclaire
Let me just say this. There's a code section that says, that was in
effect in 1986, that if you got life plus 30 years consecutive, or life
plus 40 years consecutive, you would still be eligible for parole in 10
years. We wanted to get as much time as we possibly could, but there is
no defendant out there who's going to stand up in front of a judge and
say, "I plead guilty to kidnapping." Because kidnapping in 1988 carried
an automatic life sentence, parole eligible in ten, but an automatic
life sentence, so there'd be nothing to gain. They'd say, I'm not going
to plead for kidnapping. So if we made kidnapping part of the deal,
then there would be no deal at all because they'd say, Well, try me.
[theme music]
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
At first, Joanna Katz was just totally devastated and just couldn't
handle anything. She just didn't even want to be around anything,
anybody.
Diane Katz
That was, I think, one of the awfullest things, when you see a vital
person just completely go blank. It's as if she fell into a black hole,
and you're watching it. At the time, you don't know when she's going to
recover.
Georgia Meloy
Victims in sexual assaults are different than victims of other crimes.
In robberies, people have lost their money. In sexual assaults,
something's been stolen that can never be replaced.
Diane Katz
There was a time when Joanna...just would curl herself in a ball. I
found her one day underneath the desk in her room, and she had been
reliving the rape.
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
She had spent three days in a fetal position underneath a desk, as well
as I remember. Her mom called, very upset.
Diane Katz
It's like being in another universe with no guidance. You find yourself
in a place that you've never been before.
Sidney Katz
It's totally new territory. You don't know what kinds of things are the
right things to say. You don't even know what the wrong things are to
say.
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
Every person's different, and every person is going to go through...all
kinds of-- it's like grieving, like a part of you died.
Diane Katz
The only encouragement I can give to other parents is that it really
doesn't matter what you do. It's just from what Joanna told me
afterwards. It's just being there...just being there and loving them
and being nonjudgmental.
Male parole board member
We have heard Mr. Smith today, and Mr. Smith has been rejected. We
thank you so much for coming in. If you'd like to make a statement,
you're welcome to, but he is rejected today.
Gayle Fleming
We thank you very much for your understanding.
Male parole board member
We're sorry about the circumstance.
Female parole board member
We're sorry about your experience.
Joanna Katz
Thank you very much.
Male parole board member
Would you like to say anything, ma'am?
Joanna Katz
Actually, at this time--it's just been such a long time. I've been in
here so many times. I'm just still surprised I have to keep coming in
here, but I pretty much have already commented on him before. I hope it
had already been down on record. This man has caused a lot of grief in
my life, and I'm still trying to get over it.
Male parole board member
Well, we thank you so much for coming in. We really do appreciate
your coming in.
Female parole board member
I was going to say, Ms. Katz, for some victims it is therapeutic to
come before the board and make a statement. It helps with the anger
level. I don't know how it feels, but I think for myself it would be
therapeutic. But that's a very individual comment.
Diane Katz
The therapeutic part of it is hearing that he's been rejected.
Joanna Katz
Yes.
Sidney Katz
Could you indulge a father for a moment? This month, I reached my 70th
birthday, and whether I have to come in a wheelchair, I will continue
to come up as often as I possibly can whenever I'm called. With regard
to the length of sentence, this girl here received the longest
sentence...for the rest of her life.
Joanna Katz
It took a year, the following June, to finally have the trial come
around. They kept me waiting, and they kept me waiting, until a year
later. In the meantime, Julie had left and gone to San Francisco,
got stationed there, and they subpoenaed her back.
Jack Sinclaire
It was weird. When I first met the two victims, Joanna Katz was
completely reclusive. I couldn't get anything out of her, and I thought
that she was going to be the problem witness.
Georgia Meloy
We were looking forward to the second victim in this case coming back
into town to testify at this trial because she had been such a detailed
witness at the time that the case began. We had really high hopes of
her testimony for court. It was when we took her into the courtroom
that she completely fell apart. She never made it to the witness stand.
She just crumbled, cried, trembled. I think it was a delayed reaction,
because she had been holding all of this inside and not sharing it with
counselors and family and friends. At that point, the entire case
hinged on Joanna Katz's testimony.
Joanna Katz
There were no fingerprints, no evidence...except that one incident
during the assault, when before he agreed to do what this guy with the
pistol demanded him to do, he struck a match and said, "I want to see
what she looks like first." It was a big mistake because he struck a
match and said, "Look at me." He was this far away from my face. He
made me look at him for a full 10 seconds, and I think it was the one
thing Jack Sinclaire had. He said, "Would you ever forget that face?"
I said, "How can you forget that face? I would love to forget
that face."
Georgia Meloy
At that moment, I felt that the jury made up their mind right there,
that regardless of what else was said, that was the most important
factor of the case.
Joanna Katz
That was it. He never went on the stand, he never testified, he never
defended himself, and he shot my father the bird during the trial. So
there's your remorse.
Diane Katz
For Joanna Katz, it really brought closure, the fact that she was able
to see this guy go to court and get convicted. It was very good for
her, and it was a part of her healing process, a very important part.
Joanna Katz
I felt like everybody else's story was just horrible. I didn't think my
story was any--anybody--it wasn't worse than anybody else in there. But
for some reason, everybody thought that it was just inconceivable. I
guess the reason why I didn't think it was as bad is because they
didn't seem to be dealing with it as well as I was. I thought that was
just so odd. That's when I started to put it together and figure out,
it all had to do with what happened right after...how my parents
reacted, how my--how the chief, you know, the policemen reacted...
how Sherry Monk from PAR, you know. A lot of these people had nothing--
the story that--you know, most of them had never been able to report
it. Most of them got treated like...hell. They got treated badly and
misunderstood, or never told a soul...stayed in abusive relationships,
got rejected by their family. Then I said, "Oh, yeah, "they do have it
worse than me. They really do."
Female parole board member
Good morning. All of you are here to oppose the parole of Stanley
Harley. Would you state your names for the record, please.
Diane Katz
Diane Katz
Joanna Katz
Joanna Katz
Sid Katz
Sid Katz
Jack Sinclaire
Jack Sinclaire
Parole board member
We thank you for coming today. The board has heard the case of Mr.
Harley. We have voted to reject him unanimously for parole. If there's
anything that you all would like to say, we'd be glad to hear from you.
Joanna Katz
I understand that there's another one coming up, Lydell Harley, I do
believe, back to back.
Parole board member
Yes, ma'am.
Joanna Katz
I'd like to make a statement at that time.
Georgia Meloy
I can be honest with you. I don't know whether I could have gone to
trial and sat on a stand and told my story if that would have been me.
I think that most people would not have that strength. That makes you
wonder how many victims are out there whose story has gone untold and
how many perpetrators that are out there committing these crimes over
and over and over again because the victims can't bring themselves to
go through our system.
Jack Sinclaire
I'm confident there's a lot of women out there who would say, It's just
not worth it to me. I'm going to bury this somewhere deep in my soul
and move on with my life. Another rapist goes free.
Salon client
I was trying to think of when I found out about what had happened to
you. I had been doing a volunteer program, so I think that would make
it '93, '94.
Joanna Katz
Wow, I didn't realize I was doing it then. I didn't know I did that
that early.
Joanna Katz
This is not the time to hold your heads down and your voices down any
longer. This is our moment, our year, our decade, and I want something
done with it.
Joanna Katz
After a while, Kathy and I had maybe talked outside the group where she
got to know my story a little bit more. She kind of warmed me up after
that, and it was easier to talk to people, and once I did start talking
about it, I couldn't stop.
Joanna Katz (VO)
I put myself out here for the same reason I attend those parole
hearings. Because I will not-- I will not-- let the parole board sit
there and look at this man and not get a look at me. He's not going to
forget who I am.
[applause]
Joanna Katz
It changed me. It changed me, became a very big part of who I am now
compared to who I was then.
Joanna Katz
Every year, I say I'm not going to speak at these things, and I end up
coming up here speaking anyway because I always have something I've got
to get off my chest, so the rest of you people out there are going to
be victimized right now!
[laughter]
Jack Sinclaire
I have never seen anyone come back and survive the attack she endured
and then become such a strong advocate for victims' rights. I've never
seen that in anybody else. She's incredible.
Joanna Katz
I just wanted everybody here to just get out of this that it's really
important to come out and show them you and that you're still around
and that you're still hurting and you're still fighting. Don't ever
give up because you just never know what you might leave on their
conscience.
[applause]
Jack Sinclaire
It's almost like a tonic for Joanna Katz, because she sees that
something good is going to come out of something very horrible.
Joanna Katz
I had a lot of people after I spoke come up to me, and I didn't expect
it. They came up to me and gave me hugs. Some people were crying, and
mostly...mostly it was, Thank you, thank you so much. That was just...
it was such a beautiful experience, you know, to have to touched
somebody and made them say, “something finally that somebody said
made sense to me out of all this pain.” That was really nice.
Female parole board member
Good morning. You all are here to oppose the parole of Lydell Harley.
Please state your names for the record.
Diane Katz
Diane Katz
Joanna Katz
Joanna Katz
Sid Katz
Sid Katz.
Isiah Choice
Isiah Choice
Jack Sinclaire
Jack Sinclaire
Parole board member
The board has heard Mr. Harley's case, and we have voted unanimously
to reject him for parole. If there's anything you all would like to
say, we'd be glad to hear from you.
Joanna Katz
First of all, thank you. I know that you guys have seen me appear a
number of times. There's five people involved in this case that are in
prison right now. I'm trying desperately to keep them in there, and the
later it gets, the more anxiety I'm starting to feel about coming to
these parole hearings. I've managed to come to these parole hearings
and bravely sit here before you, and it's getting harder to do that
now. That's unfortunate because I think that their max-out dates are
becoming more-- they're coming up. I know this is a critical time for
me to be showing my face. It's getting extremely hard for me. I'm
actually thinking about next time sending in a videotape, although I
don't think it's going to be quite as, um...I'm not going to be able
to interact with you with that.
Parole board member
Could you tell us why the second codefendant was not charged with
criminal sexual conduct?
Jack Sinclaire
I can address that. I'm Jack Sinclaire. I was the deputy solicitor in
this case.
Joanna Katz (voice over)
They're questioning me about why this conviction was the way it was and
why this was dropped and why this was plea bargained and why this
wasn't. That's becoming clear to me that those things that they're
asking me are wrong. It's wrong.
Jack Sinclaire
The physical evidence identify him as one of...
Joanna Katz
Lydell Harley-- I'm sorry--Lydell Harley held a gun to my head while he
made Stanley Harley rape me. He's just as guilty as Stanley Harley.
Parole board member
We're so sorry for the circumstances.
Joanna Katz
And he held a gun to my head while everybody else did what they did to
me. He was basically one of the ringleaders of this. In fact, if he had
not ever abducted me--we didn't get him on kidnapping. It was hard for
me to go to trial for every single one. We took the plea. That was all
I wanted to subject myself to.
Parole board member
We know it takes a lot of courage and effort for you to appear, and we
thank you very much.
Joanna Katz
It's really...it's not a reasonable question. It shouldn't be directed
towards me...while I'm sitting here doing the best I can to try to help
you keep some really horrible people in prison.
Jack Sinclaire
Can I say one other thing just to follow up on that? Lydell was the one
who started the whole thing. These two girls were in a parking lot in
Charleston, and Lydell came up by himself, put a gun in their stomachs
and to their heads and demanded them to get into the car. What Joanna
Katz's just touched on is the difficulty it's been for her to come up
here every year and every two years. We worked hard with the attorney
general's office to get the Morales decision changed so that violent
offenders would only have to come up here once every two years. Well,
Joanna Katz was gang raped, so she's got five defendants. She doesn't
get the benefit...
Joanna Katz
The law needs to change. There's no reason why somebody shouldn't...
challenge that. And who else...who else is a better candidate than
somebody like me? I can tell you right now, you can watch their faces
when Jack Sinclaire starts talking, my lawyer. After about 20 seconds,
they've had it...they've had it...because he just becomes-- he just
becomes a lawyer. And he's worked so hard...but they just don't have
the time. They've got 120 other cases to hear.
Jack Sinclaire
I don't see for the life of me why these hearings can't be bifurcated,
why you can't have heard from Stanley and Lydell yesterday so that last
night she could have called an answering machine and heard, Stanley and
Lydell have been denied parole, so that she can go to sleep last night
instead of waking up today and driving up here this morning and
wondering what's going to happen.
Parole board member
Because we want to give the victims an opportunity to be heard
before we make a decision, that's why.
Jack Sinclaire
In that regard, we've got video conferencing for inmates.
Parole board member
Thank you very much for your comments. We appreciate it. Lydell Harley
is rejected today...1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. We thank you very much, Ms.
Katz, for appearing.
Joanna Katz
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you, sir.
Parole board member
We're so very sorry for what brought you here, and we hope that someday
you'll be able to get over it. Goodness, what a terrible thing...
Parole board member
I mean, I wasn't going to sit there and let him rattle on that. That
was ridiculous.
Female speaker
Case Number 12, Kenneth Blake.
Joanna Katz
I'm thinking I don't even want to go these damn parole hearings anymore
to be honest with you, Jack.
Jack Sinclaire
I think you made that abundantly clear in there today.
Joanna Katz
I just don't see what the point is. There's been 14 parole hearings
within the past 6 years. Fourteen. There would have been 15 if one
hadn't waived his right to his hearing the last time he was up. Why
even bother, because they're probably just going to sign a thing that
says, Well, we're not going to, because if they do that, that means
they get out on parole and they'll have to be watched, which means that
their ass will go right back in jail again, and they know that. So
they'll just wait. They'll waive that, so I might as well not even
plan on going to theirs.
Sidney Katz
Well, if you don't, we will.
Joanna Katz
If they want to go, that's fine. I almost feel vicariously ilcchh about
them going. I mean, I wish they wouldn't go.
Jack Sinclaire
I'll go.
Joanna Katz
You'll go?
Jack Sinclaire
I'll go.
Joanna Katz
You'll always go.
Jack Sinclaire
If they'll let me back in.
[laughing]
Joanna Katz
Well, they have to.
Jack Sinclaire
That's right. It's the law.
Joanna Katz
I'm not sure when I found out. It must have been around the time that
the first parole hearing came up. The notice said...We notify you
within 30 days of this date that so-and-so will be up for--Jerry Lewis
Smith, I think, was the first one. Then they had the max-out date
on there, and it was 15 years. Max-out date meaning this is the time
when they are completely released from prison with no parole.
Jack Sinclaire
It's much better now. If you're convicted of a most serious crime,
it's CSC first and CSC second...burglary second degree, kidnapping.
Those are most serious offenses for which you've got to do 85% of
whatever the judge gives you before you're eligible for release. You're
not parole-eligible. There is no parole factor to be brought into the
equation. It's just this is how much time you've got to do before
you're eligible for release. So the sentencing is much better now than
it was, but that didn't come about till 1996.
Joanna Katz
What does that have to do...with my case or anybody else's prior to
1996? Absolutely nothing... it's not retroactive.
Joanna Katz
I'm serious, I'm thinking about moving away. I'm just thinking about
moving. I don't even want to be here. It's like I've dealt with my
whole life not worrying because they've been in prison, and the only
thing I've had to worry about is coming to these stupid parole
hearings. Then when that's over with, what do I have to deal with
after that? There's no more stupid parole hearings. I don't know which-
- yeah, it could get worse. I don't feel like walking out of my place
of work, going around the corner, running into some guy, and thinking
that might be him. What kind of a life is that?
Jack Sinclaire
Can you imagine having gone through 4 1/2 hours of just hell, living
hell here on earth, and then knowing that you could run into him...
any day, anywhere.
Sidney Katz
Well, if you move, pick out someplace nice so we can follow you.
Joanna Katz
Maybe the Caribbean or something.
Sidney Katz
That's an idea. There you go.
Joanna Katz
They'd like that. They'd have a place to visit.
Sidney Katz
What do you mean, visit...we'd move there!
Joanna Katz
I can't imagine having better...I can't imagine having more of a
blessing than to have those two as my parents. I mean, they were just
sent from God above. They did...they....I don't know who they talked
to or if it was just something that they just did naturally. I think
they did naturally, because they certainly knew how to handle me when I
was at my worst as a kid...ooh! But this...this was probably the
hardest thing they ever had to do, that any parent would have to do,
other than dealing with losing their child.
Diane Katz
The encouraging thing that we can tell to people is that it does
definitely get better. I remember Joanna Katz saying that one day
she walked out to get the mail, and the sun was shining, and she turned
around. I mean, that was when she just mentally turned around and said
to herself, I can do this...I can get through it. She didn't have to
let this affect the rest of her life.
Joanna Katz
I try to keep this from not being my life. Yeah, I mean, you know,
this is a big part of my life because it affects me so much when it
comes up. But...it's...it's more like the disruption to my life. My
life is great. I indulge. I love the theater. I'm very inspired by my
father being in the theater.
Joanna Katz
So our idea is to dress up like angels. So we design these angel
outfits. Our wings are huge. They're like big-ass wings! They'll be 10
to 20 of us.
Joanna Katz (voice over)
I love to make my friends laugh...always have, always will. Most of my
life is not this. Most of my life is just really enjoying everything I
do. I have great friends, and I have a great family.
Sherry Monk Fortenberry
To have gone through something so terrible and to be able to stand up
and be a survivor and say, I've made it through this, I can get through
anything and I'm going to, that's what I see in Joanna Katz. She's made
it. I'm not saying she doesn't have rough days, and I'm not saying that
she doesn't break down from time to time, because anyone who's gone
through anything not even that traumatic are gong to have bad days. She
has come through as a shining star.
Jack Sinclaire
She's a hero in my eyes. There's no question about that. For her to,
year in and year out, work with the people at PAR, go to Columbia,
stand up for victims' rights, demand justice in this case on these five
animals...I mean she's--I mean, no question about it. I mean, she's--
hero's a good word. She's a hero.
Joanna Katz
To know that there's something that's so quiet and so strong and
powerful that you didn't know you had, that everybody has and it just
doesn't really make itself evident until...just a certain moment in
your life.
[theme music]
