From: brian@lpl.arizona.edu (Brian Ceccarelli 602/621-9615)
Subject: Re: Is it good that Jesus died?
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.
Lines: 192

Brian Kendig first states:

> I am my own master.

I ask:

> Are you truly the master of yourself?

Brian Kendig states:

> Not yet . . .

Make up your mind. 

> . . .  but my life is the ground I use to practice on.  The fun is
> in the getting there! We don't start out perfect . . . .

And we do not end perfect either.  We are never perfect.  Can you name
one person, young or old, past or present, that you deem perfect? 
Good luck.

> I know my shortcomings, and I know my strengths, and I live
> my life according to the decisions I make, and I am content to abide
> with the consequences of my decisions as easily as I'll accept the
> +praise for them.  There have been times in my life when I've made
> mistakes, yes; I try to never make the same mistake twice.

Then you lie to yourself.  You do not know your shortcomings.  I have clearly
shown one of your shortcomings, if not two.  That is, ignorance of the Bible
and the arrogance you demonstrate butchering it without even knowing its 
contents.

> I regard Christ as a myth. 

Because you have been too prideful to examine the record of him for yourself.
And to demonstate your lack of support for your conclusion, I bet you do not
even know what the word "Christ" means.  Or which prophet used "Christ" to 
describe the "Son of Man". 

> I feel that there are far too many people
> offering far too many interpretations of what he supposedly said and
> did.  The only person who can really judge me is *me*.

Yes.  I agree with that.  So we must learn first.  Read the Bible.  Come
up with our own interpretation.   Evaluate what is being said
and by whom.  Check the history books as well.  Compare someone else's
interpretation with your own.  Then make a judgment.  But I tell you the
truth, 99% of what is being said in the Bible needs interpretation as 
much as a coffee cup needs interpretation.

And remember, the Bible isn't a Guru's Esoteric Guide to Metaphysics.  
It doesn't take a theologian to understand what is being said.    The 
Bible is a bunch of testimonies from people like you and I addressed 
to people like you and I.  These guys wrote down what they saw and heard.  Is it 
their open diary--and they want to tell you something.  And because they
want you to know something, they make it very clear what they want you to
know.   They didn't encouch their ideas in esoteric rhetoric, but in simple
straight-forward language.

> I choose the
> roads I travel, and I decide whether or not I want to reach the end of
> any given road or turn back -- and as long as I don't *always* turn
> back, there's no shame in it.  When I need help, I seek out my friends.

You have chosen the road that avoids the Bible.  You have chosen the
road that avoids a confrontation with the living God because that
road doesn't look appealing to you.  You rather build your own road.  One
that goes far away from that confrontation.   But be assured of this,
you will have to confront him one day willingly or unwillingly. 

>And you don't have a clue about what I'm saying, either.  Open your
>eyes and SEE; open your ears and LISTEN.  I'm not just spouting off
>empty words.  This is my LIFE, this is what gives me MEANING.

I see what you mean.  I hear what your saying.  I am not degrading your
life.  But I have heard the same irrational excuses for years.  There is nothing 
new in what you are saying.  And by your own words, you are "spouting off" 
contradictions.   If contradictions give you meaning, then your life must
be sad.

> I say my mother loves me.  How do I know, you ask?  I can point to
> definite things she's done for me, and I can even just bring her to
> you so you can ask her, face-to-face.
> You say your deity loves you.  How do you know, I ask? 

Bingo.  For God so loved the world, he GAVE his only begotton to son
so that whososever belives in him will have ever lasting life.   I look
what God *did*.  He has given his Son, even to his death, so that I can have 
hope in his resurrection and know that life isn't for nothing, but has
glorious purpose.

> You can't even convince me that it exists! 

Because you turn your eyes away from testimony and history.  You choose to
lie to yourself that he doesn't exist, for you ignore what has been said for 
thousands of years.  You sound exactly, almost verbatim, like the Lazarus of 
Jesus's story starting in Luke 16:19.  And the conclusion of that story is a 
bleak one.  Lazarus wound up in hell.  The story ends like this:

      "For if Lazarus doesn't even listen to Moses and the Prophets,
       he won't even believe if a man rose from the dead."

> If any god dangles 'heaven' before me like a carrot, promising untold
> pleasures to me if I'll only suspend my disbelief and ignore my
> rationality for just this once, then I would choose 'hell'.  I can
> *not* lie to myself to placate another being, no matter how powerful
> it is.

Arrogance at its best.   The fact is, you are not rational.  Several specific
cases  have already been cited.   And again with this new statement, you show more irrationality with regards to heaven.  Jesus does tell you something of what to expect
in heaven.  Jesus expects you to use your brain to believe in him.  Jesus does
not expect you to placate either.  Jesus wants you to willingly come to him, but not
as his grovelling slave, but rather as his brother who will share in his
glorious riches.  Why do you not pick up the Bible and read it for yourself.  
You maintain you have an open mind.  See whether you are lying to yourself for
yourself.

>>Why would you want to live a good life?
>>To you, you die and that's it.  Don't contradict yourself.  You have
>>no reason to live a good life.  It doesn't do you any good in the
>>end.  Your life doesn't do anybody else any good  either because
>>everyone dies anyway.  So you have no reason to lead a good life. Leading
>>a good life is meaningless.   Why do you do such a meaningless thing?

>That paragraph demonstrates that you haven't listened to a single word
>I've said.

I do understand what you said.   But that's is not what I feel went amiss here.

You missed the point.  Living a "good life" has no eternal consequences.
Once they close the amusement park of life, to you that is the end.  To you, it 
is over.  To you, therefore, your time spent in the amusement park is meaningless. 
It has no eternal consequences to you nor to anyone left on earth. 

But then you contradict yourself.  From a previous post, you said doing evil things 
is bad.  To you, it shouldn't matter if you do evil things or good things.  It is
all meaningless in the end anyway.  So go rob a bank.  Go tell someone
you dislike that he is a dirty rotten slime bag.  What's restraining you?
Life after all, has no eternal consequences and accountability is irrelevant.

> In the same way, I think life is fun.  And I don't intend to leave the
> amusement park of life until they close down for the night!  :-D

At which time, you are truly not the master of yourself.

>>I'm sorry, I don't feel that sacrificing Jesus was something any god
>>I'd worship would do, unless the sacrifice was only temporary, in
>>which case it's not really all that important.
>
>Has the resurrection sunk in?  Jesus is alive.  Jesus is NOT dead.

So you (and your holy book) say.  By the same token, therefore, Santa
Claus delivers toys every xmas.  Don't you see?  I have NO REASON to
believe that what you say is true.  Please give me some reason that I
can't similarly apply to Santa Claus.

You have EVERY reason to believe that what Jesus says and the witnesses
of Jesus say are true.  But you choose to be unreasonable and "ignore" the
reasons.  By definition, "ignorance". 

Santa Claus is said to live at the North Pole and have a squad of elves
and flying reindeer.   Ever see a flying reindeer?  Has anyone in human
history seen a flying reindeer?  Has anyone seen a reindeer whose nose 
blinks red?    

On the other hand, are people born in Bethlehem?  Was Nebuchandezzar really
a king?  Was Daniel really one of his court officials?  Were David and Solomon
really kings of Israel and Judah?  Was their really a king called Jehoachin?
Did Sennecherib really attack Jerusalem 600 years before Christ?  Did
Sennacherib really lose his battle--and badly?   Was there really a 
Caiaphas who interrogated Jesus?   Yes, yes, yes . . . history verifies
it.  It is NONFICTION.

Do you have a problem discerning truth from fiction?  Perhaps you
can't evaluate the context of Grimm's Fairy Tales apart from
that of the Scientific American.  I suppose you treat both with equal
truthfulness or equal falsity.  Is this what you are telling me?  Or
is it that just do want to read the Scientific American and find out
that it's not a fairy tale?

>Are you thereby inferring that your deity is nothing more than a
>collection of verses in a book, and cannot be supported without
>invoking them?

Get real.  Have you ever been to Zaire?  Do you have to go there
to be  assured that there really is such a place?  Given your 
irrationality, I take it you have never used a map in your life.

> Why do you believe what you believe?

Given the overwhelming evidence as well as my personal experience with the living
God, I'd be an irrational unreasoning ignorant fool if I didn't follow Jesus.
