From: jwalbea@jima.b17d.ingr.com (Jim Albea)
Subject: Re: We're from the government and we're here to help you
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Lines: 95

In article <1993Apr18.192508.12442@isc-br.isc-br.com>, steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks) writes:
|> In article <1993Apr8.200326.27560@infonode.ingr.com> albeaj@jima.b17d.ingr.com (Jim Albea) writes:
|> >In article <1993Mar24.235606.15959@isc-br.isc-br.com>, steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks) writes:

|> >|> >> Steve proposes a system of checking what other nations are in to
|> >|> >> as criteria for what our government should try.

|> >|> > I counter that the limits of the constitution might be a better
|> >|> > place to check.
|> 
|> >|> Gee, Jim, if you'll check the Constitution you'll find "in order to...
|> >|> promote the general welfare...do ordain and establish this Constitution..."
|> >|> I'm surprised you missed it.  It's right there in the first paragraph.  I
|> >|> would have thought you would have made it at least through the preamble.
|> >
|> >You almost got it right, and it was a good try, but you should follow your
|> >own advice.  The PREAMBLE to the CONSTITUTION does read as you have quoted
|> >but let us not forget that after all it is only the preamble.  It is not
|> >a binding part of the Constitution and carries no weight in the law.  That 
|> >poor tortured paragraph has got to be one of the most unfortunate passages 
|> >in the English language - witness the legions of blowhards like yourself who
|> >think those vague flowery phrases are part of the law of the land.  Do you
|> >really believe that a politician only has to give lip service to "promoting
|> >the general welfare" to be within the limits of the constitution?
|> 
|> Sorry, buddy, but some other "blowhards" managed to include the "general
|> welfare" in another portion of the constitution.
|> 
|> Article I Section 8: "The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect
|> taxes...to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and GENERAL
|> WELFARE of the United States..."
|> 
|> I guess they wanted to make sure everyone understood they meant what they
|> said in the preamble.
|> 
|> >Just to make sure you've got the point, let's do a little experiment.  What
|> >if the constitution read as follows?
|> >Preamble: We the people, to promote the general Welfare, do ordain
|> >          and establish this Constitution for the United States of
|> >          America.
|> >Constitution:  The Federal Government shall have one function and one
|> >               function only - to provide for the defense of the nation.
|> >The government would not then have two functions: defense and Welfare.  
|> 
|> But since it explicitly includes both the general welfare and defense
|> in Article I, Section 8, I guess you'll grant that botha are constitutional
|> functions.  Right?

Steve I'm glad to see that you abandoned the preamble thing.  What; did
you do a word search to find Welfare somewhere else in the constitution?

[my comments and paraphrases in brackets]

Article I Section 8:  [in some ways the guts of the constitution]

The Congress shall have the Power:

1. To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, 
       to pay the Debts [indebtedness as defined in the document]
       and provide for the common Defence [Defence as precisely defined]
       and general Welfare [as defined through the document, mostly in ways
                           [that limit the government.]
         of the United States; [but the above taxes shall be uniform through-
                               [out the U.S.]

    [so far the congress has been given the power to collect taxes uniformly]

    [ then ... ]

2.  To borrow Money [...]
3.  To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, [interstate and Indian tribes]
4.  To [do uniform Naturalization and Bankruptcies]
5.  To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and [etc.]
6.  To [punish counterfeiters]
7.  To establish Post Offices and post Roads
8.  To [provide patents and copyrights]
9.  To constitute Tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
10. To define and punish Piracies and [etc.]
11. To declare War, [and etc.]
12. To raise and support Armies,[but for no longer than two years at a stretch]
13. To provide and maintain a Navy, [notice no time limit on this one]
14. To [make the rules for the army and navy]
15. To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws [etc.]
16. To provide for [training of the army except for some state stuff]
17. To exercise exclusive Legislation [in D.C]
18. To make all Laws [necessary to execute the foregoing "Powers"].

Your original instinct was right.  Looking to other nations for precedents
that support an expansive liberal agenda is much easier than looking to the
slim pickins found in the constitution.

-- 
Jim Albea                     jwalbea@jima.b17d.ingr.com


