From: bill@twg.bc.ca (Bill Irwin)
Subject: Re: What WAS the immaculate conception
Reply-To: bill@twg.bc.ca (Bill Irwin)
Organization: The Westrheim Group (TWG)
Lines: 53

ragraca@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Randy A. Graca) writes:

:                                                               Consequently,
: this verse indicates that she was without sin.  Also, as was observed at
: the very top of this post, Mary had to be free from sin in order to be the
: mother of Jesus, who was definitely without sin.

If the mother of Jesus had to be without sin in order to give
birth to God, then why didn't Mary's mother have to be without
sin in order to give birth to the perfect vessel for Jesus?  For
that matter, why didn't Mary's grandmother have to be without sin
either?  Seems to me that with all the original sin flowing
through each person, the need for the last one (Mary) to have
none puts God in a box, where we say that He couldn't have
incarnated Himself through a normal human being.

My God is an all powerful God, Who can do whatever suits His
purpose.  This includes creating a solar system and planet earth
with the appearance of great age; providing a path through the
Red Sea for the children of Israel that does not depend on the
existence of a ridge of high ground and a wind blowing at the
right speed and direction; and the birth of Himself from a normal
sinful person without being tainted by her original sin.

I see far too much focus on the "objects" of religion and not
nearly enough on the personal relationship that is available to
all believers with the Author of our existence, without the
necessity of having this relationship channeled through conduits
to God in the form of Mary, Apostles and a Pope.

: Note that the idea of Mary being conceived without Original Sin, i.e. the
: Immaculate Conception, is distinct from the idea of Mary not having sinned
: during her lifetime, which is a separate doctrine and, I believe, also
: held by the Catholic Church.

If Mary was born without original sin, and didn't sin during her
lifetime, how is she any different from Jesus?  This means the
world has had two perfect humans:  one died to take away the sins
of the world;  the other gave birth to Him?  I would certainly
want to see some scriptural support for this before I would start
praying to anyone other than God.  Everything I have ever read
from the bible teaches me that Jesus was and is the only sinless
Lamb of God, not His mother, grandmother........

: Hope this is useful to you.

Very useful in helping me understand some of the RC beliefs.
Thank you.
-- 
Bill Irwin     -      The Westrheim Group     -    Vancouver, BC, Canada
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