From: cokely@nb.rockwell.com (Scott Cokely)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality issues in Christianity
Organization: Rockwell International
Lines: 79

In <May.13.02.30.39.1993.1545@geneva.rutgers.edu> noye@midway.uchicago.edu (vera shanti noyes) writes:

>In article <May.11.02.39.05.1993.28328@athos.rutgers.edu> carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:

>[bible verses ag./ used ag. homosexuality deleted]

>>Anyone who thinks being gay and Christianity are not compatible should 
>>check out Dignity, Integrity, More Light Presbyterian churches, Affirmation,
>>MCC churches, etc.  Meet some gay Christians, find out who they are, pray
>>with them, discuss scripture with them, and only *then* form your opinion.

>also check out the episcopal church -- although by no means all
>episcopalians are sympathetic to homosexual men and women, there
>certainly is a fairly large percentage (in my experience) who are.  i
>am good friends with an episcopalian minister who is ordained and
>living in a monogamous homosexual relationship.  this in no way
>diminishes his ability to minister -- in fact he has a very
>significant ministry with the gay and lesbian association of his
>community, as well as a very significant aids ministry.

This may sound argumentative, but do the pro-homosexual crowd give the
same support to church members that are involved in incestuous relationships?
If we do a little substitution above, we get:

"although by no means all episcopalians are sympathetic to incestuous
men and women, there certainly is a fairly larget percentage (in my
experience) who are.  I am good friends with an episcopalian minister
who is ordained and living in a monogamous incestual relationship.  This
in no way diminishes his ability to minister -- in fact he has a very
significant ministry with the Incest association of his community..."

Do the same standards apply?  If not, why not?  And while we're in the
ballpark, what about bestiality?  I can't recall offhand if there are
any direct statements in the Bible regarding sex with animals; does that
activity have more or less a sanction?

Please avoid responses such as "you're taking this to extremes".  I would
guess that a disproportionate percentage of the inerrant Bible community
views homosexual acts with distaste in the same manner that society at
large views incest.

-- 
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Scott Cokely       | (714) 833-4760   scott.cokely@nb.rockwell.com		    
"They came for the Davidians, but I did not speak up because
 I was not a Davidian.  Then they came for me..."  Opinions expressed
are mine and do not represent those of Rockwell.
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[ Obviously you can replace homosexuality in the above statement by
anything from murder to sleeping late.  That doesn't mean that the
same people would accept those substitutions.  The question is whether
the relationships involved do in fact form an appropriate vehicle to
represent Christ's relationship to humanity.  This is at least
*partly* an empirical question.  

In some cases types of human relationship have been rejected because
over time they always seem to lead to trouble.  I think that's the
case with slavery.  One can argue that in theory, if you follow Paul's
guidelines, it's possible to have Christian slaveholders.  But in
practice, over a period of time, most people came to the conclusion
that nobody can really have that degree of control over another and
not abuse it.  

The message you were responding to was asking you to look at the
results from Christian communities that endorse homosexuality.  (Note:
Christian homosexuals, not people you see on the news advocating some
extremist agenda).  You may not want to base your decision completely
on that kind of observation, but I would argue that it's at least
relevant.  You can't answer the request by asking why you shouldn't
look at the Incest association, because in fact there is no such
association.  If there were, it might be reasonable for you to look at
it too.  Of course that doesn't mean that the results of all such
examinations would necessarily come out the same way.  Part of why
there aren't groups pushing all possible relaxed standards is that
some of them do produce obviously bad results.

--clh]
