From: mikec@procom.com (Mike Christensen)
Subject: Re: homosexual issues in Christianity
Organization: Procom Technology, Inc.
Lines: 140

mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:

>In article <May.11.02.36.34.1993.28074@athos.rutgers.edu> mserv@mozart.cc.iup.edu (someone named Mark) writes:


>>"... Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, 
>>nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, 
>>nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom  of God.  And such were 
>>some of you..."  I Cor. 6:9-11.

>The moderator adequately discusses the circularity of your use of _porneia_
>in this.  I think we can all agree (with Paul) that there are SOME kinds of
>activity that could be named by "fornication" or "theft" or "coveting" or
>"reviling" or "drunkenness" which would well deserve condemnation.  We may
>or may not agree to the bounds of those categories, however; and the very
>fact that they are argued over suggests that not only is the matter not at
>all "clear" but that Paul -- an excellent rhetorician -- had no interest
>in MAKING them clear, leaving matters rather to our Spirit-led decisions,
>with all the uncomfortable living-with-other-readings that has dominated
>Christian discussion of ALL these areas.


What is fornication? (sex outside of marriage, abuse of sex)  

Is not homosexual intercourse outside the context of marriage?
Isn't it an unatural use of what God has given us?

Why is it that homosexuals are using the Grace of God as a license to
practice sin? 

   For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long
   beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who
   turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only 
   Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

                                      Jude 4 (NASB)

What is defined by God as a legitimate marriage?

   For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and
   shall cleave to his wife; and the shall become one flesh.

                                      Gen 2:24 (NASB)

   And He answer and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them
   from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS 
   CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE;
   AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?  Consequently they are no longer
   two, but one flesh.  What therefore God has joined together, let no
   man separate." 

                                      Matt 19:4-6 (NASB)

   But because of immoralities, let each man have his own wife, and let
   each woman have her own husband.  Let the husband fulfill his duty
   to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

                                      1 Corinthians 7:4,5 (NASB)

>  There are plenty of
>laws prohibiting sexual behavior to be found in Leviticus, most of
>which Christians ignore completely.  They never even BOTHER to examine
>them.  They just *assume* that they know which ones are "moral" and
>which ones are "ritual."  Well, I have news for you.  Any anthropology
>course should sensitize you to ritual and clean vs. unlcean as categories
>in an awful lot of societies (we have them too, but buried pretty deep).
>And I cannot see any ground for distinguishing these bits of Leviticus
>from the "ritual law" which NO Christian I know feels applies to us.

I disagree... Every law that is written in Leviticus should be looked at 
as sin.  That is why we have a need for a savior.  I can understand 
someone who may not know a particular sin listed in the Levitcal law, but
I would hope that they would repent when confronted with it.

>>I notice that the verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows the
>>verse prohibiting what appears to be homosexual intercourse.

>Well, la-ti-da.  So what?  This is almost as slimey an argument as the
>one that homosexuality == rape.  I know of no one who argues seriously
>(though one can always find jokers) in "defense" of bestiality.  It is
>absolutely irrelevant and incomparable to the issues gay Christians *do*
>raise (which concern sexual activity within committed, consensual human
>adult realtionships), so that your bringing it up is no more relevant
>than the laws of kashrut.  If you cannot address the actual issues, you
>are being bloody dishonest in trailing this red herring in front of the
>world.  If *you* want to address bestiality, that is YOUR business, not
>mine.  And attempting to torpedo a serious issue by using what is in
>our culture a ridiculous joke shows that you have no interest in hearing
>us as human beings.  You want to dismiss us, and use the sleaziest means
>you can think of to do so.

Also I noticed that the preceeding verses say.  

   Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness during her
   menstrual impurity.  And you shall not have intercourse with your
   neighbors wife, to be defiled with her. 


                                   Leviticus 18:19, 20 (NASB)

These verses are just as relevant as:

   You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
   abomination.

                                   Leviticus 18:22 (NASB)

Why was God telling the Israelites not to practice such things?

   Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these
   the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
   For the land has become defiled, therefore I have visited its 
   punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
   But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and Judgments, and 
   shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor
   the alien who sojourns among you

                                    Leviticus 18:24-26 (NASB)

He is the Lord...  Listen to what he has to say... 

Nobody wants to dismiss homosexuals.  We do love you, but we don't 
agree that what you practice is not sin.  You have not truly repented
of your sin.  We hate the sin that is within your lives.  I hate sin
that is in my life.  All Christians should hate the sin that is within
their own lives.  Confrontaion with sin should bring about repentance. 
Yes I agree with John 3:17, but I also know that Jesus said, "Repent for
the kingdom of heaven is at hand"  Matt 3:17.  If you don't agree that
homosexuality is sin than how can you repent from it?  This means that
you remain in bondage to it.  Repent from it and God will set you free.

In His Love, 

       Mike

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Michael Christensen                 |  Trust the Lord with all your heart,
Senior Product Support Engineer     |  And do not lean on your own 
Procom Technology, Inc.             |  understanding.   Proverbs 3:5 (NASB)
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