From: rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Nice Guy)
Subject: No-knock, was Re: Who's next?  Mormons and Jews?
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 isaackuo@skippy.berkeley.edu (Isaac Kuo) states in reply to deleted
article about no-knock searches, arrests


>Hmm.  The police strategy of bursting in with weapons drawn, clearly
>marked as officers and yelling "Police" repeatedly.  This is used every
>day to bust drug houses.  The idea is to awe the suspects into
>submission with surprise and display of firepowere in order to avoid a
>gun fight.  As for not knocking, it's a sad necessity in many cases
>since the suspects will attempt to escape or even fight.  Usually this
>strategy works; if it didn't, then it wouldn't be used so commonly, now
>would it?

In general no-knock raids are to preserve evidence, like drugs,
which can be flushed down the toilet.  They are not the standard way
to arrest a violent felon like a bank robber.  If there is no need to
search or preserve evidence they will just surround the dwelling and
order the suspect to come out with her hands up.  If the suspect does
not come out tear gas will be used.


comment on the BD omitted


>I merely point out that it IS a valid strategy which is used every day.
>Furthermore, we don't know of any substitute strategy capable of
>apprehending potentially dangerous and armed suspects.  Do you suggest

It is not a method to apprehend criminals.

>that the police always knock with guns holstered and never arrest any
>suspects until they have been allowed to inspect the officers's badges?
>Just what should the police do when apprehending potentially dangerous
>and armed suspects? How far can they reasonably go to identity
>themselves? What do you suggest they can do which can't be faked by the
>"competition"?

It is a very dangerous method to obtain evidence that might be
destroyed if a warrant is served in the normal way.  It is the most
dangerous way to arrest anyone.  The cops are charging into a room
and they don't know what is in it.  It is much safer to surround the
place and announce yourself.


>Even if you've got deadly enemies who may pretend to be cops, that's
>not an excuse to murder police.  In the case of the BD's, there was
>almost definitely at most the paranoid delusion of deadly enimies who
>would pretend to be cops.

Cops are not cops _until_ they identify themselves as police officers.


Most drug dealers and professional criminals are aware of the
likelihood of arrest but they also know how the system works.  If they
are arrested they call their lawyer, post bail and hope for a plea
bargain.  If they pull a gun and shoot a cop during a raid they will
be charged with first degree murder if they survive the raid.  Drug
dealers have guns for protection from their customers and other
criminals, not to shoot cops.  Cops are shot on no-knock drug raids
because the criminals aren't aware that they are cops.

No-knock raids on homes occupied by non-criminals are more likely to
end in disaster.  Mom and Pop citizen _KNOW_ that they have not
committed any crime, they KNOW that anyone breaking into their house
cannot be a cop because they have done nothing wrong.  If they have
the means to defend themselves they may because they KNOW that the
housebreakers are criminals not cops.  Cops and homeowners may die.

The first reports from Waco stated that the ATF had a warrant to
search for illegal weapons and also an arrest warrant if the illegal
weapons were found.  In this case the no-knock warrant was not called
for.  It is difficult to flush a gun down the toilet.  The ATF could
have surrounded the compound.  A marked police car could have driven
up to the entrance and uniformed officers could have knocked and
served the warrant usual way.  It this had happened and and Koresh
refused the warrant or drove the cops off at gun point then most of
the t.p.g folks would have kept quiet.

--
Rod Anderson  N0NZO         | "I do not think the United States government
Boulder, CO                 | is responsible for the fact that a bunch of
rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu      | fanatics decided to kill themselves"
satellite  N0NZO on ao-16   |        Slick Willie the Compassionate
