From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Subject: [lds] Thief goes to Paradise; Kermit goes off tangent
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Kermit Tensmeyer quoted from a few sources and then wrote something.
I will attempt to construct a facsimile of what was previously said, and 
then address Kermit's offering.

John Redelfs originally wrote...

  jr> I learned that a man cannot frustrate justice by repenting on his
  jr> death bed because repentance is more than a feeling of remorse.  It
  jr> requires faith in Christ proven by following him, by keeping his
  jr> commandments.  Such cannot be accomplished on ones deathbed.

Tom Albrecht responded...

  ta> So Jesus must have lied to the thief on the cross.

John Redelfs wrote back that...

  jr> Paradise and salvation are not the same thing.  Salvation is better.
  jr> Refer to John 14:2.

I responded to John that...

  rw>    I don't see the effort to equate salvation with paradise.
  rw>
  rw>    Rather, I see implied the fact that only those who are saved
  rw> may enter paradise.

To which Kermit wrote...

kt> Incomplete reference:
kt>
kt> See also the discussion: Did Jesus go into Hell in the BibleStudy group
kt> for the arguments that Paradise and Hell(sheol) are places after death
kt> The discussion (no LDS were involved as far as I could see) argued using
kt> standard Christian argument from the Bible that pretty much support the
kt> LDS position.
kt>
kt>    Christ went to paridise after his death and burial.
kt>
kt>    He taught the prisoners and freed them from Darkness.
kt>
kt>    When he was resurrected, he had not yet ascended to his father.
kt>
kt> The arguement centered around what was or wasn't the proper biblical
kt> terms for those places.

     I respond.

     The question that was raised was not if Jesus went to infernal Paradise
     before entering into heaven. No one has made a point for or against 
     that issue, nor have they compared the LDS position against orthodox
     belief. The infernal paradise is held to be Abraham's bosom (Luke 16), 
     the place of the righteous dead in sheol (equivalent to hades).

     The point that was raised by John was that someone could not repent
     on their death bed. Tom Albrecht pointed to a Biblical example that was
     contradictory to what John's position put forward. The thief on the 
     cross was promised by Christ to be with Him in Paradise, the abode of 
     the righteous dead. John's position possibly needs to be reworked.
     Kermit needs to address the topic at hand.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
