Hi, I'm writing a paper on the culture of Saudi Arabia with a focus on the woman rights there.

SAUDI ARABIA

WPJ: As Dave suggests in his book, it is really in a Saudi manner that these changes

are happening, right?

HASAN: It s not a Saudi-tailored change. Its

a global change. We're just part of it. We're going with the flow. Luckily, 60 percent of our society is below 25 years of age, with nearly half of them studying abroad right now. So imagine, all of this collected youth

coming back five to 10 years from now. It's

going to be a different Saudi Arabia.

EGGERS: That was one of my main ques- tions, and we talked about it when we all met in Saudi, and that is the effect of the nationwide brain drain from the well-edu-

cated youth who find that there are limited

opportunities in the Kingdom. They choose

to study and stay abroad. Is that changing now? Are you finding more young people returning and choosing to start careers there, or do you find that it is still a sig-

nificant problem, where people find more

opportunities elsewhere so you lose some of the young's best and brightest? Haifaa,

maybe you would like to answer.

HAIFAA: I think a lot of Saudis go back home, because Saudi is very tribal. People have very strong ties to their homes, their tribe. And honestly, Saudis have a lot of opportunities for young people too. There are more opportunities for them to have a better career in Saudi. But regarding what

you said about the freedom and evolution around Saudi Arabia, I think, compared to the neighboring countries, Saudi Arabia has the least censorship. Like when I tried

to apply for funding for my film, I was re-

jected by lots of sources, because they were

very reluctant to support a film of that kind. Even if you notice in the press, we have lots of writers who try to push the

boundaries. We are not an Egypt. We are going in the right direction. By contrast, the fundamentalism in Egypt and Tunisia,

for example, is taking the country back- ward, while we still are moving forward. Here, more freedoms are opening up. They

are trying to stabilize the country by giv-

ing opportunities for young people so it has affected the country. Maybe people are

not revolting, but the country is trying to make sure that things are taken care of - and that is really for our benefit.

EGGERS: How much of this openness has to do with King Abdullah? He is getting on in years. If he were no longer with us, would there be a regression, or do you think

this is a movement with no turning back?

MAMDOUH: It is really hard to project, because we don't know how the system will go in Saudi. But it is very hard to control. Now Saudi is part of a global movement. We have Internet; we have

young people. It won't be easy to contain and close the society as in the 90s or the 80s. Saudi Arabia is moving toward re- form and opening up, because it is the natural course now. It would be really hard

to fight that.

HASAN: You cannot predict what will hap-

pen in the future, but you can look around in Tunisia, Egypt, and now Syria. The Mus- lim Brotherhood are taking over, plus the Salafis. So, if those guys succeed in their countries, if we join the Brotherhood and the Salafis, the country will return to the

80s again and just be as closed up as pos- sible. The other scenario is the failure of the

Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis in Egypt, Tunisia, and Syria. Then, we will witness a great openness and more liberation from within. Those are the two scenarios.

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ROUNDTABLE

MAMDOUH: Take into consideration that

when we talk about openness in Saudi Ara-

bia, we always portray Saudi Arabia as Jid- dah, Riyadh, and Dammam. They are the only three big, open cities, and they repre- sent not more than 1 5 percent of Saudi Ara-

bia, which has a large number of illiterates.

We in Jiddah, Riyadh, and Dammam are the minority.

EGGERS: Mamdouh and I met when he

was helping me go to the King Abdullah Economic City, and one day we tried to go

to the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, and we were not allowed in

there without it being agreed upon. But we talked a lot then about these experiments in

the university where men and women were mixed more freely and shared classrooms. I

was attributing this policy to King Abdul-

lah's experiments in having more freedoms

and openness in these experimental mini- cities outside of Jiddah, so that you can ease

your way and experiment with these kinds of progressive policies outside of the city centers. Do you think this is an important

aspect of progress, and do you think it will ' continue? Some were suggesting that there

will be quicker progress away from Jiddah,

away from other cities. This is where these sorts of incremental movements toward

more openness and rights for women will be enacted. Is that your sense of it, Haifaa,

or do you think that - now that things are moving quicker generally - that these ex- periments are still necessary?

HAIFAA: I come from a very small city, and

my father comes from the most conserva-

tive place on earth. But now I see it is open-

ing up. I see it in my own family. My fam-

ily is very Saudi, traditional to the core, and

I see them changing. My brother sent his daughter to study in America and that is

considered a revolution in their house. They

are small town people, yet they are opening

up to the world. They are trying to find opportunities for them. They are not rich, because jobs are not as accessible for those small towns. They want to have a better life,

so they are more and more tolerant. They are

more relaxed. We must provide an alterna-

tive voice to what is happening, because the

mosques are dominated by individuals who are always telling people to be conservative. We need to have alternative places where people can say different things. It is very

important to provoke, to bring debate, and to make people think and reconsider. So it s

very important to have those places.

MAMDOUH: The new economic cities are

there to bring change. There's a high rate of unemployment in Saudi Arabia for a lot

of youth, so those cities are supposed to take those young Saudis, train them, and try and find them jobs. The economic cities are made to bring cultural change and to take on the employment problem in Saudi Arabia. Throughout history, if you want to

v bring about change, either in a company, or in a country, it should be bottom-up. Suc- cessful change should be bottom-up.

EGGERS: Could you talk about turning around perceptions the rest of the world has wrong or outdated about life in Saudi Arabia? What work do you feel you have to

do as an artist to change minds and educate

people about contemporary Saudi society?

HASAN: I found a lot of opportunities abroad, but as Saudis, we linger in the past with our faith, with our families. Still, I've

found the challenge of changing our society

appealing. One of the many challenges here is the backward mentality of the religious

non-believers, in which they mix every-

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SAUDI ARABIA

thing, including art, and suddenly things become unwanted. Haifaa and others like

us, who are open-minded and bring artistic views into our lives, faced a lot of problems.

We became very isolated in the beginning. We followed literally what Gandhi said, "Be

the change you want to see in the world." I personally became the change. I had the guts to look different, to have long hair, to

hold my guitar and play, to take my camera

and go out. I faced a lot of problems. Once,

I got jailed just for playing guitar. But even-

tually, things worked out. Now I look at the

allies that I have - people who know me, look to me as a role model for the new gen-

eration. It makes me feel that everything is

worth it, and we re going to still keep doing

it, keep pushing the boundaries. Like Haifaa said, the media here is much more liberated than in the Gulf States. As a writer for an

Arab newspaper, I have seen that personally.

We've pushed the barrier much more than

any of the Gulf States.

EGGERS: Haifaa, you've been traveling ev- erywhere with your film. We met in Colo- rado. I know you were just at the Venice Film Festival. Can you tell us where else have you brought the film and your experi- ence with how the film has been a window

on contemporary Saudi life, and what sort

of perceptions you have challenged and up- ended here in the U.S., Europe, and else- where? I'm assuming it's very satisfying to educate people about the full spectrum of Saudi life instead of the more limited per- ceptions or assumptions people may have that are probably outdated.

HAIFAA: As an artist, I wanted to put a hu-

man face on Saudis. We struggle with con-

servative ideologies. We come from a world that has created its own existence because it

has been closed for so long. And that makes

it an exciting place to do a story as a film-

maker. But I'm not in a position to defend or educate as much as tell human stories,

like opening a window and letting people discover for themselves. It's safer for me as

an artist to step away.

EGGERS: To the rest of the world, the po- sition of women in Saudi has always been of interest. I wonder if you can offer pre-

dictions of where women might be in five years in terms of their place in Saudi society.

HAIFAA: Definitely women will partici- pate in politics. They will vote, and after that, with the limited

place we have within democracy, it is hard

to predict now. The Arab world is so un-

predictable. We never

thought of the [Arab Spring] revolutions until they happened. No one predicted them. But women, es-

pecially younger wom-

en, are not passive. Women will definitely

have more rights, espe-

cially in politics.

MAMDOUH: I'll be optimistic. Within five years, I think we will have a minister who

is a woman. I hope so. Otherwise, if we get more extreme, and we become more con-

servative, then I think we'll go back to the Stone Age.

EGGERS: Do you think that's a possibility? I wonder if there will be a backlash, or a reversion. Here in the U.S. we go through

WOMEN DRIVING

IS SUCH A

POLARIZING

ISSUE IN SAUDI

NOW. BUT MORE

WOMEN ARE NOW

DRIVING, SO IT WILL HAPPEN

REGARDLESS

OF WHETHER

THE TRAFFIC

SITUATION IN

SAUDI CHANGES.

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ROUNDTABLE

more progressive times and then we reverse course, and we have a more conservative four to eight years, which we recently did. Is there a fear that the changes that are al- ready going on might provoke a backlash among the more conservative elements of society and say, "This is moving too fast," and there would be a crackdown and, like

you say, a going back to the Stone Age? Are

you worried about that?

MAMDOUH: Its a possibility depending on neighboring countries. If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Syria and Egypt and

Tunisia, then we'll go in the same direction.

HASAN: From what I see, we have a major-

ity of youth in the Arab world, in general, and all of them are quite open-minded, educated, if not academically, then by the

Internet. I see a backlash not really happen- ing. We have a majority of youth studying abroad. Most of them love art, and I can see

a lot of movement in the world of art hap- pening, and I think they will have a a lot to

say against any backlash.

WPJ: Do you think women will be able to drive in five years? That seems like a touch-

stone of women's rights there.

HASAN: In Saudi Arabia, the issue of driv-

ing is not a religious issue, it's a cultural issue. The traffic police system in Saudi Arabia is extremely bad. It's bad for male drivers. Did you know that we have the highest rate of accidents in the world -

HAIFAA: Come on, Hasan, don't use this excuse.

HASAN: I m explaining. I want women to drive yesterday. I'm sick and tired of driv-

ing my sister and my mother, but I'm being

logical. What I'm saying is that the system is bad. Before women will be able to drive,

first let's see a good, strict traffic system. Then, I will say, "Yes, maybe in five years or in 10 years." But if women drove now, with this kind of system, there's going to be a massacre. I would love to see them drive,

but first I would like to see solid, strict rules

and regulations.

HAIFAA: Women driving is such a po- larizing issue in Saudi now. But more women are now driving, so it will happen regardless of whether the traffic situation in Saudi changes or not. There will be backlashes, and women will have to face a

very conservative society. But we will see more change.

EGG E RS: Maybe we can talk about what everyone is doing next. Haifaa, are you working on a new film? Will your next film be set in Saudi?

HAIFAA: We'll definitely work on another film in Saudi. Saudi is such an exciting place

to tell stories because it's so interesting, so complex. It has religion; it has politics.

EGGERS: You have all become impor- tant ambassadors from Saudi, and you've all had significant roles in bringing art from Saudi to the rest of the world. So is

that a good responsibility, something you take on willingly and that you cherish and relish, or do you feel a weight of having to represent the nation to the rest of the world? Haifaa - would you prefer to di- rect a murder mystery set in Italy that had

nothing to do with Saudi society, or would

you feel like you were abdicating your re-

sponsibility as an artist from the Kingdom

in a position where you had the attention of the world?

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SAUDI ARABIA

HAIFAA: As an artist, I would love to do things in Italy. Why not? If I get an offer

from Hollywood, I'm not going to turn it down. No way. Of course, Saudi Arabia is the

place where I can produce more. I know the place. I feel like I belong here. I know how to tell a story from that place. There are few

people who can do that, so I have a unique perspective. I don't feel like its a burden. I

feel like its an honor to go and represent the

country and to speak about Saudi. Yeah, it s conservative, and there are radical ideologies

with very religious people, but beneath that,

there are really nice people. It was nice to hear about Hasan growing his hair long and

playing guitar. Saudis are fun. Beneath all of

the politics and conservative cover, you'll find

lots of humor. It's a great place to tell a story.

EGGERS: Exactly. When I met Mamdouh, in Jiddah, he showed me around while I was

in the country. Mamdouh is one of the funni-

est guys I know, and we instantly had a rap-

port, and his sort of looseness and irreverence

surprised me right away. It was one of the rea-

sons we got along so well. We had an unusual

situation where we had planned a couple of

events. I was supposed to go to a dinner and to go to a reading in Jiddah and talk to local

writers, and then we realized that my flight

wasn't leaving from Jiddah but was leaving

from Riyadh that night. So Mamdouh got me a ride. We found a guy who would drive me to Riyadh that day and I got in the car. We didn't know this guy. You just put me in some random car.

MAMDOUH: I just told him that this is a gift of the King.

EGGERS: Here I was thinking my good friend Mamdouh, of course he'll be put- ting me in a safe car with somebody that he knows. But we were desperate, and I had a six-hour drive, so we had to leave immediately. Then in about 10 minutes of driving, this young man was on the phone, and he looked over at me. While he was talking to his friend on the phone, he looked over at me and said to his friend, "American: BOOM BOOM!" sort of in

this kind of scary way. I didn't know what

he meant. It got me a little nervous. Just the words "BOOM BOOM" were discon-

certing while I was alone in the car with him driving at 140 kilometers per hour. So we got to be friends during that drive,

even though we had a significant language barrier. By the end, it was just indicative of perceptions on both sides, and we had to build trust and understanding during the drive even through gestures, looks, smiles at photos I showed him, and the few words we could exchange.

HASAN: I'm thankful I'm here in Saudi

Arabia because with oppression comes in- spiration. I mean for me, living and suffer-

ing made me who I am today. For that, I'm very thankful.

EGGERS: Thank you all so much for being with us. •

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