Hate crime
‘Jm: So when was the first time you realised you were using everyday
P: First tiem I used every day, I’d met a girl, she was ten years older than me, I was twenty, she was thirty
Jm: so that’s eight years ago was it?
P: yeah yeah, met her, what happened, she had had a previous two year heroin addiction, and up to that period I had tried it but I’d never smoked it everyday, but she had obviously, and for six weeks, after meeting her we were smoking it everyday, and I’d said to her I don’t understand how people get addicted to this stuff, people must be weak, I mean I don’t understand how they’re getting addicted to this stuff, and after six weeks, what happened is I woke up and realised I’d lost all this weight, I hadn’t been to the toilet for six weeks, and also, I really really needed to go to the toilet, and I didn’t know what the feeling of clucking was, if you see what I mean, what the sensations and that felt like, and you know I can remember that very first day vividly, /just feeling that pain and the want for heroin like, erm it’s hard to explain what it feels like, erm it’s like a rushing on your mind, you can’t stop thinking about it, I want it, I want it, I want it, so obviously we had to go and score then, but that was when I had my first real feeling of it washing over me, it was actually making me feel better than normal, before previously I was getting a good buzz off it, it was giving me a good buzz like, but fromthat point on it would wash over me where I just used to feel normal again, as in, whereas before, so then my tolerance built up, then my use went up even more, I was smoking like sixty pounds worth a day, and I was committing crimes to like supply that,’
Jm: So you said there was this one day you’d woken up with a habit, had you already realised you’d been using everyday by this point?
P: yeah, yeah,
Jm: can you remember the first time you realised you were using heroin every day?
P: yeah
Jm: can you remember where you were at this time?
P: lying in bed
Jm: and do you remember exactly what you thought when you realised this?
P: I thought I gotta go and buy heroin, I gotta go and get some heroin
Jm: you said there were other times you were using every day
P: I was using every day, and I thought it was addictive, I thought it wasn’t physically addictive, I thought must have been a mentally addictive drug, and then all of a sudden I had the physical withdrawals, I realised that I was physically addicted to it,
Jm: so you woke up and felt you needed to go and get some, did you have any other thoughts about it? Like fuck I need to sort myself out?
P: yeah, basically
Jm: and when you woke up with that runny nose, was it first of all what’s wrong with me, or was it I know exactly what I need?
P: I knew what was wrong straight away. I just knew, I dunno how, I just knew it would make me feel better, I just knew it would like, I dunno why, it just did, it’s strange
Jm: About this time did you have any conversations with people about this?
P: no, no
Jm: so obviously your girlfriend at the time realised?
P: she had a habit as well,
Jm: but she spotted it as soon as you did?
P: yeah,
Jm: and did you chat to her about it?
P: nah,
Jm: and were there any other people who noticed at this time?
P: no
Jm: when did any other people first find out?
P: erm, we’re talking about a year here,
Jm: oh, it took people about a year to find out. Why do you think that is? Were you only really hanging out with your girlfriend then?
P: I was living with her
Jm: so you didn’t really see other people?
P: no, not often,
Jm: so were there any other people not from the heroin scene that you were seeing at that time? You weren’t in contact with your mum or dad then?
P: I weren’t talking to my mum and dad at that time then
Jm: and when people not from the heroin crowd found out about this what was their reaction?
P: shock more than anything, I think a lot of them thought I wasn’t that stupid,
Jm: what sort of people was this? Old friends, or family?
P: old friends, yeah and a few family members, cos I told my mum, shock more than anything, same as from people,
Jm: did they try and get you off it? What did they say?
P: well mum said just stop doing it, I said mum it don’t work like that, you can’t just stop doin it, and my mum, I don’t think she understands bout this still like, it’s not one of those drugs you can just stop using, you need treatment for it, you know, it’s a real physical addiction,
Jm: do you remember any conversation with old mates you had about this?
P: yeah, they were just, what you doing that for? Your stupid like, you’ve wasted yourself, you’ve gone from thirteen stone down to ten, cos I was like a thirteen stone, powerfully built bloke like and I’m ten stone soaking wet now, and they were all shocked, like where’s all your weight gone, you look like a fifteen year old boy again, and it was quite hurtful like to hear, I think they were saying it in a way of like sort yourself out so you can come back be part of our crowd again,
Jm: but they wouldn’t have you back?
P: no, they wouldn’t have trusted me in there houses and things like that, because people don’t when they know you’re on heroin, You know, cos in general they don’t trust you, they think you’re gonna steal from them,
Jm: and from your school, do you know any other people who ended up using heroin?
P: yeah loads, lots and lots, yeah, so many people, it’s unbelievable,
Jm: the other people from you school was it people you’d expect?
P:no, some of them I wouldn’t have expected, so of them I would and some of them I wouldn’t
Jm: and are many of them your close mates from when you were at school?
P: not so much close mates but people I knew, well enough like to call em friends,
Jm: at this stage, you said you were about twenty one when your mates found out, were you one of the first from your school?
P: nah, I think I was one of the first, I was one of the first
Jm: so when your mates said they wouldn’t trust you in their house, was that from experience?
P: nah, its typical stereotyping,
Jm: so those friends hadn’t really been around heroin users they were just
P: no, no
Jm: so now we’re on this bit when you were increasing your use what were you doing for money around that time?
P: breaking into cars, shoplifting,
Jm: yeah, what would you get out of the cars?
P: stereo
Jm: how would you shift them?
P: sell em,
Jm: to people in the pub? Or would someone buy a whole loads of them?
P: yeah, yeah, or there was a guy in a shop I could just take stuff to, and he’d buy it like you know, I’d get all sorts out the car, car stereo, sometimes people leave cameras, mobile phones, money, clothes with money in, erm, all sorts, laptops, you know, that kind of thing like you’d find in cars like,
Jm: at that time were you stealing just enough for your habit or did you have spare cash at the time?
P: it was literally just enough for my habit and then my benefit money went on keeping the house going,
Jm: and you said you were just hanging round with your misses at the time?
P: at the time yeah, oh, other users. Other users used to call at ours all the time, to use, and they’d sort us out like for using at our house like,
Jm: what do you reckon they thought of you at the time?
P: associate. You haven’t got friends on heroin, just associates,
Jm: so you were just smoking at the time, were there people in your house injecting?
P: no no no no, my girlfriend at the time was against it and she wouldn’t have had it around the house. I didn’t inject it until I was twenty three I think.
Jm: how would you score at the time? Would you have to go somewhere
P: yeah, drive in to the big town
Jm: oh yeah, how much would you and the misses get at a time?
P: started off just one twenty pound bag, went up to two, then three, then, four,
Jm: would you make the decision together to score or would it be one of you?
P: we just did our normal thing, we’d get up in the morning, we’d keep a bit for the morning, sort ourselves out, make ourselves feel better, go straight into town you know I was on the raise, I’d come back with like four car stereos, I’d have made eighty pound, sixty or eighty pound
Jm: so you were paying for both of you then?
P: yeah, so I would have made sixty or eighty pound, and then come back to the flat, er, house, and then we’d automatically get up in the morning, smoke the bit that we kept for the morning, sort ourselves out, drive into town, cos she use to drive, and then we’d pickup, pick up three or four, take them home, smoke them through the day, do that, and keep a little bit for the morning, id go back out on the rob then in the night, then it was the sort of vicious cycle like that,
Jm: always only went out at night?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: and you said on the raise earlier? Does that mean the same as on the rob?
P: yeah
Jm: I never heard that before, does it mean specifically cars or anything?
P: no, no no, just out on the raise… raise cash,
Jm: and throughout the day when you were smoking it, would you decide together when you do another few lines?
P: basically she was in charge of it all the time like, she’d burn the foil, she’d put it on the foil, she’d have the first bit like, and it would just go like, I’d go and have my bit, she’d have a bit more, I’d have a bit more like, a bit more like, a bit more like,
Jm: and why was it do you reckon your use went up and up and up?
P: just depression, wanting to smoke more, depressed because I was on heroin and I didn’t know how to get off it, I dunno you just use again to get rid of the problem form the day before like, stressed about, you ain’t, it’ s just a horrible cycle it is, a really horrible cycle
Jm: were you getting on with your misses during this point?
P: we were getting on, and then it just started going downhill from then, the relationship like, it become more of a drug relationship than anything else, we was just together for the drugs more than anything else like,
Jm: did that thought occur to you at the time?
P: yeah, yeah, course, yeah,
Jm: so now we’re going to talk about this time right up here when you were doing about four twenties a day. How did that last?
P: about six months,
Jm: you said you were mainly doing cars at night, were you doing any extra to afford this?
P: be out for longer, or like look in more cars than what I had done previously,
Jm: did you do anything else, burglaries, shops?
P: nah, oh, I shoplifted like,
Jm: when you shoplifted, would that be like when you ran out in the middle of the day?
P: we wouldn’t run out in the day, we wouldn’t run out in the night, it was in the morning, we’d get up, keep a little bit from the night before, and then we’d run out, and then, then I’d already have stuff to sell, or I’d already have sold the stuff and I’d have money to spend, that’s what your life just revolves around that cycle,
Jm: was there anything different up here to when your heroin use was increasing?
P: it was changing, yeah the group of people I was hanging out with was changing, users, instead of the people I ended up with as friends, people I’ve now lost as friends like, you know, I’ll probably never be friends with them again like,
Jm: so now we’re talking about this time here, around 2005-6, when you were doing about three bags a day. What was going on around here?
P: this time I was living in the homeless centre, I just had users all around me
Jm: and throughout this period here, were you still doing the same things for money?
P: yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much, same things,
Jm: were you only paying for one person here or paying for both?
P: yeah, no just paying for meself,
Jm: did you have spare money, what did you do with it?
P: erm, spend it on cannabis,
Jm: and you were smoking that most days then?
P: yeah
Jm: so every day you knew thirty quid was what you needed?
P: yeah yeah yeah, it’s kinda like that, yeah
Jm: and so at this time would it be out at night looking for cars?
P: either that or shoplifting in the day, or looking for cars in the day, people leave sat navs in their cars, you know, things like that so, not proud of what I done, but,
Jm: so at this time, were you floor space, or were you in a room at the homeless centre here?
P: I started on the floor space, then I went into a room,
Jm: so when you were on the floor what time would you normally wake up?
P: They get you up at half past six on the floor space,
Jm: do they ring a bell or is that when you end up waking up?
P: no, they call you up at eight ?O’ clock, they give you a cup of coffee, a bit of toast, or a bowl of cereal, and then they ask you to leave then at eight o clock,
Jm: you said you’d wake up at half six, would you normally have a couple of lines then?
P: that’s the one thing I always did, did some for the morning
Jm: you’ve always been good at that?
P: yeah yeah, I’ve always made sure I’ve kept something back
Jm: and in the homeless centre could you use their toilets there or would you have to go round the corner?
P: normally go in the toilets like, you’re not supposed to but,
Jm: when you smoke it the smell doesn’t stick around too long?
P: yeah, nah
Jm: would you share it with someone?
P: no,
Jm: would you wait for the coffee at eight o clock?
P: yeah, yeah yeah,
Jm: and so at eight when they kicked you out where would you go?
P: just on the wonder, you know, just go for a wonder round town centre like until quarter to nine when the day centre opens,
Jm: and would you normally find something to shoplift during this time?
P: yeah, I’d be trying to find something to shoplift?
Jm: and would you quite often manage to get something, sell it, and get some gear by quarter to nine?
P: yeah, yeah, a lot of the time yeah
Jm: and in town was it easy to sell something?
P: yeah
Jm: and when you were a shop lifter what would you normally be getting?
P: erm, anything from deodorants, to toothpaste and toiletries and toiletry wise, after shaves
Jm: where would you sell them?
P: in the pubs, aftershaves, expensive ones from boots and Debenhams, places like that, erm, or from cars like I’d take a stereo, or people leave cameras, phones, Ipods, all sorts of things, so, Oakley sun glasses,
Jm: and you’d never go off on the rob together with people?
P: yeah, yeah ,yeah, now and again, that’s how I ended up getting locked up, for the robbery, cos I was hanging around with this older person, thought he was older and wiser, he was trying to rob people and they was just like pushing him off and get away from me,
Jm: was this in the street at night?
P: it was in the street at night and in the end I done it and in the end we got caught and I got three and a half years,
Jm: so how did it happen?
P: Basically it was a knife point street robbery, I accept the back off him,
Jm: so the person you were robbing tried to grab the knife off you?
P: no no, he didn’t try to take the knife off of me, he just gave me his phone and his wallet, and run off like, but I gave the knife back to my co-defendant, and he dropped it in a shop, and the shop owner saw it and called the police,
Jm: what they got your finger prints?
P: no, he picked it back up but they got our faces on camera, so they knew it was us like,
Jm: do you remember how it came about you decided to go on the rob with him?
P: I was just clucking so hard, I just felt horrible, I wanted it to go away, I was being sick, I was, I was in a hell of a mess
Jm: and he said what, come with me?
P: yeah, he came up to me and said I’ll make some money with you now, went shoplifting but we couldn’t shoplift anywhere, we kept on getting chased out of shops and stuff like that, and then I noticed that he was trying to rob people in the street and stuff like that and I could see he was trying, and I could see people just telling him to get away from them, and I just took the knife off him and I said, just give it here I’ll do it,
Jm: do you know, did you have a reputation at that point?
P: yeah, yeah I think so yeah, you know, I had a bit of a reputation because like, I’d have a scrap and look after myself, and I think people would be a bit weary of myself because they didn’t know if I was going to kick off or they weren’t sure I was the mind of person they’d get on with, stuff like that so,
Jm: in terms of amount of gear, did you have a reputation for doing a lot of gear or for being good at robbing?
P: I had a reputation for being a bit of a shoplifter, being a bit of a shoplifter, because I always had something for sale, I was always trying to sell something to someone like, so yeah a bit of a reputation as a tea leaf like,
Jm: ok, we’re gonna fast forward now, this is when you were in prison for a bit and then first came out here, what was it you were in for here?
P: that was license recall, from this one back in 06
Jm: oh, I’m not that sure of all of the rules of prison, what happened here?
P: well I had three and half years, half in custody and half in the community,
Jm: oh, I see, and were you recalled for an offense
P: no for relapsing
Jm: for giving dirty piss tests?
P: no, I told them I’d been using,
Jm: did you want to go back to prison then?
P: yeah
Jm: what for?
P: to get clean
Jm: oh right, yeah, so what made you think you needed get clean?
P: you know, I’d just had enough of having to go out on the raise, just fed up of having to go out stealing, y’know, waking up in the morning feeling rough and having to try and keep some for the morning, it was just too much,
Jm: can you remember the day you went and turned yourself in?
P: er, yeah yeah yeah, just went in the police station, I left it til late in the night, I was looking at, I’d missed a court date, so I went and said to them look you know I’ve got a warrant for nonappearance at court, can I hand myself in please, so they checked the details on the computer, yeah, handed myself in, went in court the next morning,
Jm: you were already clucking then?
P: yeah, got to the prison, where they remanded, cos they asked my solicitor if they wanted a bail app, and erm, that was that, and I ended up spending six months on the wing,
Jm: and when you came out six months later did they give you something to maintain yourself on?
P: suboxone yeah, suboxone
Jm: did you admit to them that you’d been using inside?
P: yeah, no no no, it wasn’t that I’d been using inside, it was called a retox program, as opposed to detox, but did you tell them you’d probably use when you came out?
Jm: yeah, I wanted to either have a naltrexone implant, go on naltrexone, but because I’ve had mental health issues they didn’t want to give me naltrexone, because it suppresses your serotonin levels, and cos I suffer with depression they said they don’t wanna mess about with something like that, they reckon I haven’t got enough serotonin as it is like, so they didn’t want it to be suppressed any more, so they said the only other option then is to put you on blockers, subutex or suboxone, so er, did the suboxone,
P: ok, so can you remember your first day out when you came out of jail, yeah, from my first sentence in 99,
Jm: this particular one, what time of the day did you come out?
P: first thing in the morning,
Jm: where did you go?
P: straight to the shop and bought a can of beer,
Jm: what were you doing with your days when you were staying clean
P: erm, hangin around with my girlfiend who I’m with now
Jm: I see, did you meet her then?
P: yeah, yeah, she was on the dip at the time.
Jm: so had you met her before you handed yourself back in?
P: no,
Jm: so you met her straight after you came out?
P: yeah,
Jm: were you hanging around at her place all day?
P: no, we were coming into town to meet each other and just spending all day in town wandering round and stuff like that
Jm: were you robbing then?
P: no, no no no no,
Jm: so just hanging around, was she using at the time?
P: nah
Jm: how long was it you spent your days like that with her?
P: erm, well, for about three weeks, and then I moved in with her
Jm: oh right, yeah, was that because she, got a place from the waiting list?
P: she already had a place when I met her,
Jm: so she already had her place and then you moved in with her?
P: we wanted to take it slow. So it was three weeks, which wasn’t the greatest amount of time but we , you know both, we were in love with each other, so we said, bam yeah we moved in with each other
Jm: were you looking for work at all at this point?
P: no no no, I wasn’t, oh I was on jobseekers allowance, and I was attending this place called CSI, basically put you on a computer which was hooked up to the internet but it’s only three websites you can go on, jobsite, the government jobs, and er the job centre database to help you look for jobs like, so basically that’s all they do for you
Jm: were you properly looking for jobs then or just doing enough to
P: yeah enough to keep them off my back like, cos I didn’t really want to go into work at that point
Jm: and why wasn’t it you weren’t interested in work at that point?
P: I was just trying to get myself sorted, and off the heroin
Jm: and you said you were smoking weed around this time?
P: yeah, I was smoking a lot of cannabis,
Jm: and that was the only other drugs you were taking?
P: yeah yeah, that was it
Jm: for you how does weed and heroin go together, cos some people don’t like it?
P: ok, fine like, I mean if i’m withdrawing I can smoke a spliff and feel ok, it doens’t take my withdrawal away, but it take the edge of you know what I mean, it makes it that bit easier,
Jm: and if you’d just had a line of gear, would you ever feel like a spliff then or not?
P: yeah, yeah yeah yeah, it brings the gear on, makes the gear feel a bit stronger,
Jm: were you smoking weed or hash at that point
P: weed
Jm: ah ha, so you’d just got with would current misses, you were on the suboxone, who else were you hanging around with at this point?
P: just her
Jm: and as at this time you weren’t using heroin did you try to get in contact with any family members or old friends?
P: no, oh yeah, I did try and get in contact with my mum, but we ended up arguing on the phone, I ended up arguing with my dad, I then lost contact with my dad, he’s even my real dad actually he’s my stepdad, he’s my stepdad, he married my mum when I was five, and he adopted me, and by law he’s my dad like, my real ad, I’ve never met, but erm, yeah erm, I forgot where I was, erm?
Jm: yeah, so I was asking if at this point you were trying to get into contact with non-users
P: oh yeah, I tried, I tried,
Jm: so did you tell your mum and your step dad that you weren’t using then?
P: yeah, yeah, yeah
Jm: what was their reaction to it?
P: they were like well done, keep it up and all that,
Jm: did you feel they were being nice and congratulating you or what?
P: I think, I suppose I did yeah,
Jm: and did you get the feeling that they were genuinely pleased?
P: yeah, yeah , yeah
Jm: did they believe it was for good?
P: yeah, yeah, but it hasn’t been
Jm: now to this bit, this relapse, now what, so when you were relapsed was that when they first tried to cut you down from the subutex?
P: no, it was erm, trying to think, now, cos this is a couple of years ago, I can’t remember, I’ll be honest,
Jm: can you remember first going to score when you relapsed?
P: nah
Jm: or how it first came, was it behind your misses’s back or?
P: behind her back, yeah,
Jm: do you reckon you just found at old friend or?
P: no I think I went and found someone and I had money on me and said can you score for me and I’ll sort you out, and it went a bit like that,
Jm: if you been off the scene for a while and then need to score, do you find someone you know or someone who just looks the part?
P: er, no I find someone I know like, wouldn’t just go up to anybody like, I just, I mean, me just asking you if you can get me heroin and you saying yes puts you in the concern of supplying that class A drug, so I wouldn’t just walk up to any stranger in the street,
Jm: but I spose you wouldn’t trust him to come back with the tenner,
P: no I wouldn’t trust em anyway no
Jm: do you remember how long it took you to get back into having a daily habit?
P: within a week or two
Jm: and even when it was every day was it still behind her back?
P(nods)
Jm: yeah, can you remember how it built up again to that?
P: yeah, er, yeah of course it was exactly the same as the first time, just the same as the first time, I was only using a bag a day then,
Jm: were you talking to anyone else at the time?
P: I was working,
Jm: what were you doing at the time?
P: canvassing
Jm: ah canvassing, that must have been the first day’s work you’d done in a while, can you remember the first day there?
P: yeah, yeah yeah, yeah it was ok,
Jm: so knocking on doors, asking for charity money, how did you find it?
P:ok, it was ok,
Jm: how did you get the job?
P: through the job centre
Jm: was it any scheme for former users or people that have come out of jail?
P: no, it was nothing like that,
Jm: how much money was it pulling in?
P: not a great deal, it was commission only,
Jm: would you get a hundred quid a week from it?
P: oh, it was twenty five pound for every contract I got them to sign,
Jm: how many would you normally get?
P: the most I did in one day was three
Jm: and in a normal week?
P: I haven’t got a clue
Jm: some days you could get none
P: some days I’d have none, some days I’d have just one, some days two, the most was three , but they wanted four a day, you needed four a day to keep with the criteria,
Jm: and they’d let go of you if you didn’t hit the target?
P: exactly cos we wasn’t meeting our criteria yeah
Jm: were you gutted when they let go of you?
P: yeah, yeah, I was a bit gutted but there you go,
Jm: did you try and find other work after that?
P: no,
Jm: what, had that put you off?
P: yeah a little bit, it did yeah, it knocked my confidence a little bit yeah, because I was building it up to start with yeah, and when I first started working there I was going for a nice bit of trousers and shoes, with a shirt and a tie and a nice jacket that went with them, and then eventually like I went out and bought a suit, went to work in a suit and it made me feel a whole lot better, like a business person, that was a grey suit and went and bought first, then I bought myself a black suit, and then every week I was like going and buying a pack of two ties, different colour ties so I, I still got em all now
Jm: ok, around this time when you’d relapsed here, can you remember how you’d feel when you went to score? Would it be excitement, would it be annoyed with yourself?
P: it’s a bit of a euphoric feeling, it’s like arghh, I feel rough it’s gonna go away soon, it’s always a euphoric feeling,
Jm: would you always go and score in the morning around this time?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: and were you smoking or injecting, when you’d relapsed, when you were working
P: I think I started off smoking and then injecting
Jm: and you’d have one a day or you’d sometimes have more?
P: one yeah, no, one
Jm: and finally, so at the moment are you using a few times a week,
P: yep,
Jm: so you used yesterday I suppose because you were getting pins?
P: yeah,
Jm: what made you think yes, today I’m gonna use?
P: boredom I think, I’m waiting to be housed,
Jm: what type of place are they going to put you? A one bed?
P: no, a two bedroom, room for me and my son like,
Jm: ahh, wicked, so the three of you are going to be in there,
P: no, it’ll just be my place, there’s no point me moving my misses in when we’ll just be grassed up for living together
Jm: oh right, is it harder to get a place for a couple?
P: we’d lose money we would, that’s the basis behind it, cos it’s her flat I’d lose all my benefit and she would only get an extra forty pound, so it’s too much
Jm: so you’d have your own place but that would be only for yourself and your kid?
P: yeah, and her place would be her place for her and the baby, my place would be my place and have the baby at the weekends.
Jm: ah, that’s quite nice isn’t it, do you know how long the waiting list is?
P: no idea, no,
Jm: do you have any ambition to knock gear on the head overall right now?
P: yeah, yeah, definitely,
Jm: have you got a timescale or a plan?
P: yeah, I’m on a nine month drr,
Jm: so are they cutting your
P: not yet they’re not, not yet but um, but my prescription hasn’t moved over to drr yet so it’s all up in the air at the moment,
Jm: and do you have a plan about how you’re going to avoid gear when they cut your meth down?
P: not yet, but erm, the plan I set in motion is I’m gonna get myself a nice set of decks, to play my music
Jm: what do you like to mix?