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[MUSIC PLAYING] ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And we thought today-- we wanted it to hopefully be interesting to you today. We wanted to talk about some of our research projects in the past and ongoing. The first thing I thought we might-- that you might find of interest is a new book that we have coming out. And Steven, I know you did a large amount of work on this. STEVEN LITTLE: I did. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Which is why you're the first author, editor. And I thought maybe if you could just give us a brief overview, title, you know, what our aims, our goals were in creating this book. That would be great. Let's talk about research topics. STEVEN LITTLE: OK. One of the things that I would talk about more than anything is my research and my writings. So I'm excited to talk about this today. We published, back in 2009, a book that we edited with Melissa Bray and Tom Kehle from the University of Connecticut. It was entitled Behavioral Interventions in Schools, Evidence Based Positive Strategies. The book was very well-received. And, you know, we even made a couple of hundred dollars. Believe me, academic books you don't make a lot of money, unless it's a-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: A little bit more than a couple hundred dollars. STEVEN LITTLE: OK, but not a lot more. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. STEVEN LITTLE: But the book was well received. And we were invited to do a second edition of the book. So let me start by telling you a little bit about the differences between the two books. Then I'll go through some of the-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: What about-- what was-- tell me the topics, the headings for the first book. And then that might help. STEVEN LITTLE: OK. The headings for the first one-- we had a total of four sections. The first section was entitled, Foundations for Designing School Based Behavioral Interventions. It was exactly that. It was foundations. It was the basics, things that you needed to know in developing a behavioral intervention in a school. The second one was Systematic Approaches to Prevention and Intervention. More general intervention approaches. The third one-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: For systems. STEVEN LITTLE: For systems. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So group contingencies would be in that. STEVEN LITTLE: Group contingencies. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So that's a class-wide systematic-- STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: --intervention. OK. Even school-wide, that could be. STEVEN LITTLE: We had-- yeah, we had the introduction to cognitive behavior therapy in there. But then we also had a third section, which was Specific Behavioral Techniques. And here, we looked at specific things like working with individuals with specific learning disabilities. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I think math, academic disabilities, too. Math and reading. STEVEN LITTLE: We did have a math and reading section. We also-- in here, we had something on daily report cards and on self-modeling. And the last section was Customizing Behavioral Strategies for Special Populations, where we got into very specific populations in working with, for example, we had one on working with students with externalizing disorders. Another one was working with students with internalizing disorders. One on just working with preschoolers. And those type of things. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: But isn't there a chapter there, Working With Children With Autism? STEVEN LITTLE: There was a chapter written specifically on autism. And there was one chapter. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: One chapter. STEVEN LITTLE: In fact, this was an edited book, meaning we didn't write all of the chapters. We wrote a number of the chapters, but we recruited some of the best people in the field to do that. And the woman who wrote the chapter on autism, Susan Wolchinski, was actually running the National Autism Center at the time. So we tried to get some of the best people we could to write those chapters. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: OK. So what about-- what are the changes-- I really-- I noted that in particular, because that's sort of a big change with the new book. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. The new book, we didn't want it to just be an update of all of the chapters in the first edition. In fact, even APA Books, who was the publisher, wanted us to have a fairly large amount of new information. So we tried to break it down a little bit different. We thought there still needed to be sections on foundations of behavioral interventions. They're not all the same chapters from before, but a lot of them are the same chapters as before. And classroom management, reductive procedures. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: But interestingly, a new one on foundations is. And that just shows you from 2009 to this year-- the new book is in press-- that there is a chapter of Applied Behavior Analysis and Education, the role of the board certified behavior analyst. STEVEN LITTLE: In educational environments, in schools. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. Not just in special schools, but in regular ed schools, which might contain special ed classrooms, which might not. STEVEN LITTLE: Exactly. And when we were setting you up on how to do this, one of the things that Dr. Akin-Little and I talked about in detail was, well, we wanted to get somebody who could talk about applied behavior analysis not just in working with children on the autism spectrum but rather other applications. And you will have actually a week in the Ethics class-- but it's also Professional Issues-- that somewhat follows along with that chapter that was written by Mark Shriver from the University of Nebraska on the BCBA in the schools. And it's not just working with children in special education but ways we can expand the role of the BCBA into regular education. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Because previously, you said, working with child with autism with Shriver. And he does run an autism clinic in Nebraska. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes, he does. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: OK, the second time, you said special ed. STEVEN LITTLE: But the idea was to get away from just that. He also is very much a proponent of expanding behavior analytic services to the regular education population. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Right. OK. I wanted to try to make that point very clear. STEVEN LITTLE: So in that first section-- I'm going to tell you a little bit about the chapters. The first chapter is "Narrative Reports and Recordings for Behavior Problems, Problem Solving in School," which is a general approach to solving behavioral issues in the schools. And Chris Skinner from the University of Tennessee wrote that chapter. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And we're hoping to have Chris. He's agreed to be interviewed on one of the podcasts. And I think that'll be a pretty interesting time for everyone. STEVEN LITTLE: Fitting into his schedules is not easy. So it may not be this course. But one of these podcasts, we'll get him. The second chapter is "School-Wide Positive Behavior, Behavioral Interventions and Supports," a systems-level application. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's pretty similar to the first book, that one. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes, it is. And the same people are writing it, Brandi Simonsen and George Sugai from the University of Connecticut. The third chapter is also very similar to one that was the first book about classroom management by Joe Wehby from Vanderbilt and Kathy Lane from the University of Kansas. I really some of the things they talk about in that chapter-- not just of regular classroom management techniques or procedures but rather things like implementing choice in the classroom and things that we will talk about in more detail in other classes that you'll be having. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: It's really good to use this podcast as a way to expose potential BCBA students to this way of thinking-- that they could be class-wide change agents, not just someone sitting in front of a child, no prompt. They could actually be working in a systematic way to make those kind of changes. And we really do hope that a lot of you hear this and push for that BCBA working in schools and hopefully very soon in the regular ed classroom. There's so much good work that could be done class wide in training teachers in behavior principles. STEVEN LITTLE: Absolutely. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And BCBAs could be at the forefront of that. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah. The fourth chapter is my favorite chapter. And it was my favorite chapter in the fight book, too. And that was "Reductive Procedures," in which the two authors are talking to you right now. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: OK. OK. STEVEN LITTLE: But I won't go into it in any detail. And I like the things. It's more proactive techniques to reduce maladaptive, unwanted behaviors in the classroom. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Setting the occasion that maybe they never occur-- errorless learning. Remember that? STEVEN LITTLE: Yep-- and basically trying to keep things from ever happening. We're not escalating to the point where they really become a problem. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Setting the environment up that-- well, particularly the lack of escalation. That's so important. Because it's harder to set the environment and put all those variables in place where the behavior doesn't occur. But then that stopping that escalation-- and then you're using the law of physics. STEVEN LITTLE: I finally was able to apply some of the physics that I had in high school and college and apply it to behavior using Newton's third law of motion. So I don't want to remove the suspense that you're going to have reading the chapter. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: But I love that. Less force is needed to de-escalate earlier in the chain of behaviors. I really like that. STEVEN LITTLE: It extends Newton's principle of behavioral momentum and just brings in a little bit more-- and just taking F equals ma, Force equals mass times acceleration-- and putting behavioral terminology to it. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. I know they'll read it. But it's just really simple. Just think about it. It takes less if you catch that behavior early on before it's spiraling out in-- ah. It's more natural in the environment to just catch that right away. So it's very interesting. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah. We also talked about positive differential reinforcement techniques, reinforcing more positive behaviors to replace the problem behaviors. Well, I think the thing to remember for the students is that we will be going to all these things in much greater detail in other courses. So hopefully, it builds some anticipation for them, get some excitement for them. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That would be wonderful if there is a little excitement building. And maybe, even, you can hear in our voices even after all these years-- we're not excited. But we do have a great interest in this. We find it extremely interesting-- maybe a little bit exciting, too. So maybe you'll catch that. And if you don't understand every term, that's, of course, our fault, never yours. But it'll come. It'll come. It'll come. STEVEN LITTLE: It will definitely come. The fifth chapter is "Generalization." ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Now, you're not going to go over every single chapter, are you? STEVEN LITTLE: That's right. I'm not going to go over in as much detail. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Only if it's a chapter that we wrote. STEVEN LITTLE: Right. Again, something that was in the previous book. I thought it was important to have this one, too. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yes, generalization and maintenance are key to behavioral interventions. You might see behavior change, but you want to see behavior change over and over again-- maintained. And, oh, the grand, golden icing on every cake-- that behavior then generalizes to different situations. Oh, boy, if you can get that going, mm. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah, and that's what we want. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And the way to get it is to program it, to think about it ahead of time, to program it. And there's all kind of ways you can do that. Great, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: The sixth chapter, the chapter there was first authored by my colleague here-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, it's mine. STEVEN LITTLE: --"Extrinsic Reinforcement on Intrinsic Motivation, Separating Fact From Fiction." And we did talk a little bit about this. And we were talking about ourselves in that first podcast. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: The first podcast. STEVEN LITTLE: It's also something that I'm going to have you read later on in a different class. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I'm sorry. STEVEN LITTLE: Come on. It's a wonderful, wonderful chapter. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: The next chapter is one we've already mentioned, which is "The BCBA in Other Contexts." ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yes, we really wanted that. I guess you can tell every single podcast we're talking about BCBAs and reg ed. So that's a big interest of ours to see the world controlled by BCBAs. Yay! STEVEN LITTLE: That would be nice. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Wouldn't it? Well, read Walden, too. That's kind of the idea. STEVEN LITTLE: The next chapter is "Behavioral Interventions for Academic Performance." ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yes, good. STEVEN LITTLE: We hope to see behavior analysis spreading from just working with children with disabilities. One area I think has a lot of potential is in academic areas, reading, math, and other academic areas. And then the last chapter in this section is "Adults As Change Agents." ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And we've talked about that a lot. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. And it is so important in working with adults. Because they do so much-- the parents, the teachers, aides, whoever it is. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: You're asking so much of them. They deserve as much reward, reinforcement, reinforcers as your specific client. Well, in many cases, they are your client. So there's that idea, too. So that's the nine chapters in the foundation and a couple of changes there. But the big change-- if you remembered from the first book the different sections-- this next big change, we have-- and you won't be surprised-- there is an entire section on working with children on the autism spectrum. STEVEN LITTLE: The first edition of the book had one chapter. This book has an entire section. How many chapters are there? ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Seven. STEVEN LITTLE: Seven chapters. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And it's necessary. I don't know of another book that actually has-- well, we're blowing our own horn a little-- but has these types of ideas together. But that's because you and I believe these types of ideas are really important to be together, the ideas of working with change agent, the schools, working with children with autism. All of that is really important to be together in one book. That's what we've thought about whenever we put together an idea for a book. And this is only our third. And it will definitely be our last. STEVEN LITTLE: I agree with that. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: There will not be another one, no, no, no, no, no. STEVEN LITTLE: I'm really excited about this section. The people that we were able to recruit-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: They are tops. STEVEN LITTLE: --to write in this one. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Kudos go to the people we recruited. Because guys, you all know, you don't get money for writing a chapter. The editors-- the little money that we get, we get it. Of course, if you're an academic, you want publications. It's the whole tenure process, et cetera. But these people do this-- yes, they get a publication. STEVEN LITTLE: There's some names in here who don't have to worry about tenure. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Don't have to worry about tenure-- absolutely-- some really good people doing excellent work. Oh, wait, the first one's by us. So ignore that. STEVEN LITTLE: No, the first chapter is on screening and diagnosis, which we wrote in conjunction with one of my former students at Walden, Geri Harris. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Who's obtained her PhD in clinical psychology. STEVEN LITTLE: She got her PhD. And she's now working actually with children with autism. She's also a BCBA. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: She is a BCBA. OK, she did get that. And she was an amazing-- didn't she go through-- she finished really quick. She was amazing. STEVEN LITTLE: She was amazing in how quickly she did her dissertation. She did her dissertation in one year while she was also doing her internship. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Wow. STEVEN LITTLE: I've never had anybody else been able to do that. So she was she was amazing in the work ethic she had. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: She also was quite a good writer so that probably helped her an awful lot. But that's great for students to hear, too. Because I'm sure some of them may consider having the BCBA and then going on and possibly earning a PhD. Clinical psychology dovetails really nice with that. Other areas do, too. But Dr. Little is obviously someone who does publish with his students. At the least, the students have a presentation. STEVEN LITTLE: Geri's dissertation was also published in the Australian Journal of Learning Disorders. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yes. I have it. STEVEN LITTLE: We'll talk a little bit about that later on. The next chapter is just an overview of ABA in early intervention services for individuals with autism spectrum disorder. The person I had wrote this is the director of the ABA program at Simmons College in Boston. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, wow, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: "Discreet Trials Training" is another chapter. And you will be reading this in the course. This is a very international group of people. The first author is Jeff Sigafoos, who is at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. And he wrote this with-- I won't go through all the authors-- but they were two from the United States and one from Italy. And he is one of the top people in the world in discreet trials training. For the next chapter-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: "Classroom Pivotal Response Training." STEVEN LITTLE: Pivotal response training. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I'm sorry, everybody. Steven is looking at a computer screen. And I just changed it. So everybody, forgive me. All the sudden, I got frantic pointing. Sorry about that. Sorry about that. And I want to say one other thing. We're both slowly getting over bad colds. So please forgive us for the coughing a little bit. We wanted to get this out. STEVEN LITTLE: Again, pivotal response teaching is one of the major approaches to working with children with autism. I won't go into the details on this. You'll get this in another class. But [INAUDIBLE]---- I can't pronounce her name-- [INAUDIBLE] from a university in the Netherlands, [INAUDIBLE] who is from a university in Israel-- and Laurie McLay is from Canterbury University in New Zealand. So we have, again, a very international group here. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And we found them through Jeff Sigafoos. STEVEN LITTLE: Jeff Sigafoos helped me with some of these. It's amazing what a nice guy Jeff Sigafoos is. And even though we lived in New Zealand, he moved there right around the time we were leaving. So I didn't really get a chance to know him very well. But that was a different university in New Zealand, also. But he's been a really great guy and very helpful when I've needed his help. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, yeah, that's really nice. STEVEN LITTLE: The next chapter is just "Verbal Behavior Interventions." And Elizabeth Lorah and two of her students from the University of Arkansas wrote that chapter. "Video-Based Interventions," which we'll talk about later on, was written-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's one of our areas. STEVEN LITTLE: It's one of our chapters. And we'll talking about, specifically, video self-modeling. And then the final chapter in this was "TEACCH." That's T-E-A-C-C-H. The approach that was developed at the University of North Carolina. But it's a structured teaching approach for children with autism. And Laurie McLay-- it's Laurie, but he's a man-- spelled the same way we spell Laurie. And he's from New Zealand from Canterbury. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's in New Zealand. STEVEN LITTLE: In New Zealand, yes-- and a couple of other people, again, from-- one from the United States. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And I hope you won't mind. I'm not sure if we told everyone. But in 2009, Steven did take a job at a university in New Zealand. And we have permanent residency. And we pursued that in New Zealand. And we love New Zealand a lot. We're in the States now. We lived there for almost four years. And we really love a lot about New Zealand. It's a wonderful, wonderful place. STEVEN LITTLE: It's the equivalent of having a green card in the United States. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's the idea. That's right. Sorry, I had stumbled there a little bit. And finally, in this particular book-- which is different from the first book-- very different-- four chapters, a third and final section on cognitive behavior therapy-- of course, that work with children. Because this book is for interventions with children. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. And this is not the behavior analysis that you-- this would be not as interesting to you as cognitive behavior therapy. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: If some of you want to pursue clinical psychology someday, it would be interesting to you. And I don't know if you'll remember from the first lecture. In my graduate program, we called cognitive behavioral therapy an oxymoron-- you know, opposites in the same sentence-- whatever. I think there is a place, particularly with kids with autism. And depending on where they are on the spectrum, there are some anxiety and depression issues. And so it's something of which we want to be aware of. We really do. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. And the prime audience for this book are school psychologists. And this is within the domain of school psychologists, especially those at the doctoral level. But there was supposed to be five chapters. But one person was so late on turning it in that it had to be eliminated. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I wasn't going to say that. Don't say who. STEVEN LITTLE: I won't. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Do not say who. STEVEN LITTLE: But it was a chapter on rational emotive behavior therapy that we didn't-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Shh. STEVEN LITTLE: We weren't able to include. We do have a general chapter written by Ray DiGiuseppe, who is at St. John's University. We did a CBT with children also from somebody from St. John's, Mark Terjesen. We did what's called applications for families, a cognitive behavior therapy to school settings. And this is mainly for working with families where there's a history of abuse. And it was developed by David Kolko at the University of Pittsburgh. And he's an author on this. Carrie Jackson, which is one of his ex-students, is this is the first author on this one. And she's at the University of West Virginia now. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And Amy Herschell's on this. And she did a chapter for me on another special edition in a journal when we were putting together trauma-focused interventions. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. And speaking of that, the last chapter is "Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavior Therapy," again written by the two of us. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Duh-duh-duh-dum. STEVEN LITTLE: And this is something that I'll talk about a little bit later on but not in great detail. Because it's not really ABA focused. But we did do some work immediately post Hurricane Katrina, which got us interested in the effects of trauma on both children and their parents. So you will be reading pretty much that section on ABA. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: On autism. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes, the autism section. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And some foundation chapters. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes, but primarily, the chapter that's one section on autism spectrum disorder. Every chapter in there is assigned in the sixth course in the sequence, which is our specialty course on autism spectrum. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Is that not some kind of conflict of interest for us? STEVEN LITTLE: I did check with that when I was developing the courses and identifying reading material. I did check. And it even went all the way through the legal department at Walden. And I was given the go ahead. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: OK, OK, no I'm just-- I think they are good chapters. And of course, I know more about the book. You guys may not know that Dr. Little, Steven, put together all the courses. I have not really had a hand in putting the courses together. He's put together your coursework. And of course, he's your lecturer. So I've come in at this end to maybe give just a little-- it's not quite downtime for the podcast. But it's sort of like insider information here and there, something like that. But since we are talking about research, that's one of the books. Something that I'd like you to maybe address if you feel like it in this podcast, Steve, is-- something we've been doing a lot of lately is video self-modeling. If you want to talk about perhaps what that concept is-- and then I might lead you to a couple of studies you've done with students. And if you want to talk about that student study and then how you helped them for publication. What do you think? STEVEN LITTLE: That sounds great. I do have-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: What is video self-modeling? And I think they call it something different now. But what is that? STEVEN LITTLE: OK. Video self-modeling is, in essence, the individual serving as the model for their own behavior. You probably could be scratching your head going, how does that happen? Why do they need to model a behavior which they engage in? I want to start by talking about how I initially got interested in this. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I was just going to ask you that. Where did you first hear of that? STEVEN LITTLE: It was actually a student of mine when I was on the faculty at the University of California Riverside back a little while ago. And she wanted to do her dissertation on video self-modeling. And at that point, I said, what is video self-modeling? And she started explaining it to me. And I thought how interesting it was. And I remembered seeing something from a friend of ours, actually Melissa Bray, who was one of the co-editors of our first book. And she had done it with selective mutism. And in that study, what she had done was-- selective mutism is an individual child will not speak in certain environments. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. STEVEN LITTLE: And this child would speak at home, would speak with his mother, would speak with selected individuals, but would not speak in the classroom to the teacher or to other students. So what she did was she videotaped the child. She actually got in an empty classroom and had the child talking to his mother, and videoing the child as he was responding to his mother's queries, and then videotaped the teacher asking the same questions the mother did. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So in essence, the child is talking to the teacher. When they spliced that together-- STEVEN LITTLE: That's exactly it. They spliced it together to make it look like the child was talking to the teacher. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So the child can look and say, oh, look, there's me. I'm talking to the teacher. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes-- the same thing with peers in the classroom. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, good. STEVEN LITTLE: So they spliced the child in. So the child was in a classroom full of students. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I remember this, yeah. STEVEN LITTLE: And this was bad done, oh, probably close to 20 years ago. And so we didn't have the technology we have nowadays. So it was a little choppier than what we'd expect nowadays. But it worked. It worked well, and it worked quick. And she taught me about that study and then how she wanted to do it in a classroom of children on the autism spectrum-- high-functioning children. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Now, when you say "it worked well and worked quick," could you please operationally define that? What does that mean? Remember like in podcast 2-- operationally define "it worked well." STEVEN LITTLE: Well, "well" meaning that the rates of talking in the classroom went from basically 0% of the intervals to-- I believe it was almost 100% of the times when he was addressed. In other words, in talking in the classroom, you don't want the child to talk all the time. You want the child to talk when it's appropriate. So it was almost basically 100. And it went in a matter of days. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That quickly, in a matter of days. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And when you see something at a-- let's say, you're starting at a baseline at 0%, and then you're at 100%. That's a ceiling effect. And we don't mind a ceiling effect in those cases. STEVEN LITTLE: No. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So that's how you got involved with video self-modeling. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. And with this study-- I'll give her full credit. Her name's Holly Victor. She's now a school psychologist in, I believe, the Anaheim school district in California. The publication was called "Increasing Social Engage Time in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder Using Video Self-Modeling." It was single-subject design. We had an n of 2. We generally prefer to have more than that. But there were only two-- we couldn't get more than two that fit the criteria. So we did an n of 2. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Let's go back for just a moment, too. That's what we're going to talk a lot about. In applied behavior analysis, you're doing single-case design studies. Now, both Steven and I have been involved in group designs. But our preference really is single-case design studies. I don't know if it's as true now. But there was a time when people would look at that and say, well, only two subjects. What do you do? Some journals would think that that wasn't enough, or you had to do group studies. Now remember, we're coming from the field of straight psychology. But now I think even single-case design is very accepted as BACB, the board, has increased the number of BCBAs and the idea, the knowledge of what BCBAs can do. Single-case design research, I think, is even more accepted. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah. If you look in the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, that's all you'll see. STEVEN LITTLE: --that's all you're going to see. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Well, now that was always the case. STEVEN LITTLE: True, true. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I'm just saying that other journals-- STEVEN LITTLE: You see this much more in other respected journals now. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: --other journals. You're not getting people who go, what is this? Every once in a while, I think you'll still have someone at Walden where you have-- don't you still have someone where you'll have to explain? STEVEN LITTLE: I still have-- especially on dissertations, when I get a-- we have what we call a university research reviewer who looks at it after the committee has approved it. And they're not always very knowledgeable about single-subject design. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, so you do still see some of that? STEVEN LITTLE: I still see it. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: As much or less? STEVEN LITTLE: It's less. But I did, fairly recently, run into somebody. And I had to educate the person. And once I did, it was fine. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yeah, yeah, good. STEVEN LITTLE: But let's get back, though, to Holly's study. There were two young men. They were both high functioning on the autism spectrum. Now, keep in mind that this was in a earlier version of the DSM. So one of them had a diagnosis of Asperger's. And the other one was just high-functioning autism. Behaviorally, they were very similar. They had very low rates of social interaction behavior. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That was the target behavior. STEVEN LITTLE: That was the target. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Increasing social interaction. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That seems to be-- a lot of kids with autism, they want increase these social interaction. STEVEN LITTLE: A very, very common one and a very common one in the video self-modeling research. So what she did-- these two were identified. Both of them had IQ testing done on them previously. They were both in the 1-teens. They were high average in functioning. But they were not interacting with anybody. And they were in a special school that was as good an environment as you will find. It was in a special school that was at the University of California Irvine. And it was run by very well-respected PhDs. And so the each classroom had no more than six students. It had a-- and I'm going on memory right now. It was a little while ago-- it had a teacher who had a minimum of a master's degree and at least two aides who had a minimum of a bachelor's degree. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, my goodness, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: They received social skills training daily in their curriculum. These kids still were making no progress with that curriculum. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: No interaction with other children in the classroom. STEVEN LITTLE: It was very, very low. In fact, when we did a baseline-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: What was the definition of that? Was it someone approached them, or if they had to approach, or? STEVEN LITTLE: It was both. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Do you remember? OK. STEVEN LITTLE: It was both initiating interactions, as well as reciprocating when approached. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And by the way, my name is on this. So I know the answers. But I'm still asking. STEVEN LITTLE: We did think it would work a little bit better if Angeleque-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I did an interview. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah, sort of act as an interview this time. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Yes, OK, good job. Good job. STEVEN LITTLE: So they were very similar in background and in their baseline levels of the behavior, which were both in the-- of observation levels-- it was between 0 and, I think, 8% of the observation intervals. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: It was a very low baseline. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah, very, very, very, low baseline. What she did was she-- like, for example, they would each interact with one of the teacher aides. So she had them play catch with-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I remember that-- throwing the ball. STEVEN LITTLE: They videoed the child catching and throwing the ball. They then had each child select-- well, if you were going to interact with somebody in your classroom, who would be your preference, which one? So they identified somebody as being their preferred peer. And we had to get permissions and everything. They got pictures of that person throwing and catching a ball. And then it was spliced together to make it look like the participants in the study were playing catch with this preferred peer. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: What I always remember is that Holly was able to get an amazing video. And supposedly, she had some friend of hers-- I don't know if we should say-- a guy. STEVEN LITTLE: OK, she was dating this guy who worked in the movie industry. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And it was an amazing video. STEVEN LITTLE: So even though this was done in 2006, he helped her and created an incredible video. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And her data were really something. STEVEN LITTLE: One other example I remember was playing follow the leader. And they just had the child walking in a certain way, like stomping around on the playground. And then they had a bunch of other peers doing the same thing. And then they spliced this child in like he was in the middle of the line. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: It was really something. STEVEN LITTLE: It was amazing. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Think what you could probably do now with an iPhone. Well, I don't know if you can splice. I don't know. But I'm sure the students out there can do amazing things with their iPhones that I have no idea at all about. STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. While we still do research in this area, I have other people do that for me. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. Because you've had other people do that. But interestingly, with Holly, her data were amazing. STEVEN LITTLE: It was. The baseline was between 0 and 8% of the intervals. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And it just jumped and stayed. STEVEN LITTLE: Immediately. We did the intervention. They created this video. They watched it five days. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Five days, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: That's it. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: It was really short. STEVEN LITTLE: One week of school. It was a four-minute video. They looked at it before school. The first day it jumped from less than 10% for both of them to over 80% of the intervals. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, my gosh, wow. STEVEN LITTLE: This is in a free setting. They weren't contrived. This was observing them during recess, during outside when they had the opportunity-- what they were doing before, which was standing alone by themselves, or interacting. It jumped up immediately, and it stayed up there throughout the five days of the intervention. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And she went up for maintenance. Didn't she do maintenance? STEVEN LITTLE: Yes. The maintenance phase was the third phase. It was a multiple-baseline design. The third phase, which was maintenance, was only about two weeks later. Because it was getting to the end of the school year. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: The school year. That's it. STEVEN LITTLE: So we couldn't stretch it out any longer. And believe me, if you're working on a dissertation, you want to get it done. You don't want to wait until next September to finish. The amazing thing was it not only maintained over that two-week period with no-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: With no video. STEVEN LITTLE: Not looking at any video. Not only did it maintain, it actually increased a little bit. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, my goodness, that's just amazing for kids. So I just want to be clear there. Children saw the video. The first day, it's jumping to 80%. From 0 to 8%, it's jumping to 80 or above percentage in a free play situation, not a contrived-- someone saying, go, ask him to throw the ball-- no, just free play, free choice. What are you going to do? For us, that's sort of amazing to see that kind of change. And then-- get this-- when we're talking about maintenance, we just mean pull the intervention. The study stops. You go back. Steve is right. Normally, we want to go back a month or even six weeks later. This student went back only two weeks later. Because if you wait a longer time, what happens? You can be even more sure that's those behavior changes are being maintained. It was the end of the school year. She wants to get a dissertation done. She doesn't want it to come back in September. This is May, I think. STEVEN LITTLE: It was. Yup. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So she goes back in two weeks-- but still, behavior changes maintained or increased. That's amazing data. But I do remember we had some trouble trying to publish it, because there was an increase in baseline. STEVEN LITTLE: One of the participants had a slight increase in baseline. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: We only have two participants. We had a slight increase in behavior in baseline. And let's just stop for a second. Whoever's still listening, why do you think that's going to be a problem? There's a slight increase in baseline. Hm. OK, there we go. STEVEN LITTLE: It's a problem, because it was trending in the direction of improving. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. So we can't say for sure. STEVEN LITTLE: But the argument that I made-- and I remember this was initially submitted to the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis. And I remember the reviews. There were three reviewers. Two of them liked it, did not mind that slight increase baseline. One person said, absolutely not, we can't publish this. And the editor, who was making the final decision, went along with that person. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: I thought it was the Journal of School Psych. So that was JABA, OK. STEVEN LITTLE: I went to the Journal of School Psych, also. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, that's right. STEVEN LITTLE: I had the same issue there. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Now remember, everybody, these journals-- I guess you can look it up-- but I think these journals have a rejection rate of about 80%. STEVEN LITTLE: Somewhere about 80% to 90%, yes. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So we're not the losers that you may be thinking we are. We're winners, because we kept on trying. STEVEN LITTLE: And it was published in-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And we might not have kept on trying if it wasn't for the student. You do it for the student. Because you keep on trying. Because you know these are good data. You know how hard the student worked. You know what she got, what's shown here. And you keep on trying working hard for the student. STEVEN LITTLE: But I'll also tell you why the reviewers didn't know what they were talking about. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, thank you. STEVEN LITTLE: Because the-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Wait, wait, wait, everybody, quiet. Everybody, hold on. And now, Steven, tell us why-- and I love this about my husband. His ego is amazing in a positive way. He doesn't have like a-- but he's got a very strong sense of ego and very confident in yourself. STEVEN LITTLE: I just know when I'm right. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: OK. STEVEN LITTLE: If I'm not right, I'll admit it. But in this case, I was right. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: No, he won't. STEVEN LITTLE: There was a slight increase in baseline. And when I say slight, the slope was next to nothing. So there wasn't much of an increase. It was just a slight increase when you looked at the time. And the fact was, there was a tremendous change in magnitude. It went from an average of, like, 5% to 6% during the baseline to 80% during the intervention. But that the other thing is the latency. There was no latency. Immediately upon the intervention being implemented, we saw the change. So there were enough other factors in there that-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That overrode that. STEVEN LITTLE: Oh, yes. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And the amount of difference between the non-overlapping data point, the amount of difference-- I liked when you talked about the latency, that there was no-- STEVEN LITTLE: There was no latency. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: There was no latency. STEVEN LITTLE: It happened immediately. They looked at the video once and-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Boom. STEVEN LITTLE: Boom. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Boom. STEVEN LITTLE: I've joked about this. So this was published in 2011. So it's been a while since it was published. But I tell people. I go, if I was someone who wanted to make up data-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: These are the data. STEVEN LITTLE: --I would not make them up looking this good. Because people wouldn't believe me. They were that good. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. STEVEN LITTLE: And believe me, these were not made up. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And that goes to show you. You probably have really good studies. And if you do research work, keep on submitting. Because some-- and it's still the case. And I'm just going to say it, because how many people listen to the podcast? Not that many-- some of these people are just real jerks. Some of the people you send it off to are just jerks. STEVEN LITTLE: Reviewers and editors can definitely-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And some are so nice, and so helpful, and really see what you're trying to do, and see how important it is. In maybe another podcast we'll talk some about this idea of what should be published and what people are publishing. So we don't have much more time today. So what I wanted to do is possibly, since we are on the topic of video self-modeling, there's another study. And I think it's the one you did here. Let's see. STEVEN LITTLE: There's a couple of them. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: There's a couple of them. STEVEN LITTLE: I'll run through them relatively quickly. There was one study that we used also with preschool children, in which we used preschool children with their siblings-- also on the autism spectrum-- lower functioning on the autism spectrum. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. STEVEN LITTLE: And it worked very well. The next one was a study that I did with-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Now going up. That's right. STEVEN LITTLE: Oh, yeah, with one of my students when I was in New Zealand. And there was video self-modeling as an intervention for primary-school-aged children who have difficulty with oral reading fluency. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: So using that with academic behavior. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah, with regular education students, also. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. That was exciting. STEVEN LITTLE: This was with oral reading fluency. And oral reading fluency is a great measure of reading ability. You don't have to do comprehension. Because oral reading fluency correlates very highly with that. But these were students who weren't reading poorly enough to get extra help in school. But they were struggling to keep up with the class. And we have them read passages over and over again. Then we spliced them together, so they were reading the passage fluently. And lo and behold, it worked. It was published in the New Zealand Journal of Psychology. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That was good. This is a really nice area. Do you want to talk about Geri's. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah, let me briefly talk about Geri's. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: We already talked about it a little bit before. STEVEN LITTLE: And Geri Harris-- I talked a little bit about her dissertation. And the published version was called "Video Self-Modeling as an Intervention for Remediating Dysgraphia in Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder." Academic problems, even with children on the autism spectrum who are average or above average in intelligence, are higher than their non-ASD peers. And one area where they tend to have difficulty is in writing. And again, using video self-modeling-- watching them write. And watching them watching themselves write in a fluent manner improved their-- I can't remember the exact numbers, but it improved it-- not to the extent that we see with the social attraction. But it improved enough that we were able to get it published in the Australian Journal of Learning Difficulties. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And I'm sorry. Because we mentioned Geri when we were talking about the book. And that was autism screening and diagnosis. But this is actually her dissertation. Do you remember what her population-- their level of functioning? I don't remember. They were higher functioning. STEVEN LITTLE: They were higher functioning. But they were, I think, still in the average range. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: They weren't at age level-- OK, average range. STEVEN LITTLE: They were in the average range. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: All right. All right. STEVEN LITTLE: Well, there's one other study that I just wanted to talk about it some more detail in another class, which is the meta analysis that we did and that we published in Behavior Modification-- that's the name of the journal-- back in 2015, which is "Group Continuances, Interventions in the Classroom, a Meta-Analytic Study." ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: And I know you love meta analyses. And I was hoping that perhaps we'll do another podcast where we talk a little bit about meta analyses and how you've helped your Walden students. You've published meta-analytic research, how it's important, and how it's helped students-- how it's a nice way to do research as a student. STEVEN LITTLE: Yeah. And it is something we talk about. So I won't go into it now. You're probably tired of hearing us today. So just let me just-- a meta analysis is an analysis of analysis. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Oh, yes. STEVEN LITTLE: So you're just basically taking all the studies that have been done in a certain area and then calculating a standard metric for them, which is in effect size. And we'll talk about that, especially-- ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Even though I said, we'd talk about it later, he still has to get it in. He still has to get in on. STEVEN LITTLE: We'll talk about it, especially with contingencies later on. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: No, that's a really interesting study. But I thought this might be a nice time to wrap up. And I certainly hope you've enjoyed today. We've enjoyed discussing these things. It brings back a couple of memories and how exciting we do find some of this research. I wish we could do more right now. But it's nice to live through students, and see their excitement when they do this kind of research, and see the good work, the really, really excellent work that students do. STEVEN LITTLE: And when we're talking about our research-- recognizing, even if you're not working to publish things, every single case that you work on is, in essence, a mini research study. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: That's right. You are scientists. And that's probably why we love applied behavior analyst. Because they accept that, yes, I am a scientist in everything I do. Everything is a mini study. That's an excellent point to end upon. STEVEN LITTLE: So don't forget it, OK? So thanks for joining us today. ANGELEQUE AKIN-LITTLE: Thanks for joining us. Bye. STEVEN LITTLE: We'll talk to you again next week. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]