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THOUGHTȱASȱAȱSYSTEMȱ ȱ ȱ ȱ ȱ ȱ ȱ

InȱThoughtȱasȱaȱSystem,ȱbestȬsellingȱauthorȱDavidȱBohmȱ takesȱasȱhisȱ subjectȱ theȱ roleȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ andȱ knowledgeȱ atȱ everyȱ levelȱ ofȱ humanȱ affairs,ȱfromȱourȱprivateȱreflectionsȱonȱpersonalȱidentityȱtoȱourȱcollectiveȱ effortsȱtoȱfashionȱaȱtolerableȱcivilization.ȱ

ȱ Elaboratingȱ uponȱ principlesȱ ofȱ theȱ relationshipȱ betweenȱmindȱ andȱ

matterȱ firstȱputȱ forwardȱ inȱWholenessȱ andȱ theȱ ImplicateȱOrder,ȱProfessorȱ Bohmȱrejectsȱ theȱnotionȱ thatȱourȱ thinkingȱprocessesȱneutrallyȱreportȱonȱ whatȱ isȱ ȇoutȱ thereȇȱ inȱ anȱ objectiveȱworld.ȱHeȱ exploresȱ theȱmannerȱ inȱ whichȱ thoughtȱ activelyȱ participatesȱ inȱ formingȱ ourȱ perceptions,ȱ ourȱ senseȱ ofȱ meaningȱ andȱ ourȱ dailyȱ actions.ȱ Heȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ collectiveȱ thoughtȱandȱknowledgeȱhaveȱbecomeȱsoȱautomatedȱthatȱweȱareȱinȱlargeȱ partȱcontrolledȱbyȱthem,ȱwithȱaȱsubsequentȱlossȱofȱauthenticity,ȱfreedomȱ andȱ order.ȱ Inȱ conversationsȱ withȱ fiftyȱ seminarȱ participantsȱ inȱ Ojai,ȱ California,ȱDavidȱ Bohmȱ offersȱ aȱ radicalȱ perspectiveȱ onȱ anȱ underlyingȱ sourceȱofȱhumanȱconflict,ȱandȱ inquiresȱ intoȱtheȱpossibilityȱofȱ individualȱ andȱ collectiveȱ transformation.ȱ Theȱ lateȱ Davidȱ Bohmȱ wasȱ Emeritusȱ ProfessorȱatȱBirkbeckȱCollege,ȱUniversityȱofȱLondon.ȱHeȱwasȱtheȱauthorȱ ofȱmanyȱ articlesȱ andȱ booksȱ includingȱ Causalityȱ andȱ Chanceȱ inȱModernȱ Physics,ȱWholenessȱ andȱ theȱ Implicateȱ Orderȱ andȱ Theȱ Undividedȱ Universeȱ (withȱBasilȱHiley).ȱ

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THOUGHTȱȱASȱAȱ SYSTEMȱ

DavidȱBohmȱ Thisȱ isȱ aȱ transcriptionȱ ofȱ aȱ seminarȱ heldȱ inȱ Ojai,ȱ Californiaȱ fromȱ 31ȱ Novemberȱtoȱ2ȱDecemberȱ1990.ȱItȱhasȱbeenȱeditedȱbyȱProfessorȱBohm.ȱ

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Firstȱpublishedȱ1992ȱbyȱDavidȱBohmȱSeminarsȱ

Thisȱeditionȱfirstȱpublishedȱ1994ȱbyȱRoutledgeȱȱ 11ȱNewȱFetterȱLane,ȱLondonȱEC4P4EEȱ

ȱ SimultaneouslyȱpublishedȱinȱtheȱUSAȱandȱCanadaȱbyȱRoutledgeȱ29ȱWestȱ

35thȱStreet,ȱNewȱYork,ȱNYȱ10001ȱ ©ȱ1994ȱSarahȱBohmȱ

RoutledgeȱisȱanȱimprintȱofȱtheȱTaylorȱ&ȱFrancisȱCroupȱ

ThisȱeditionȱpublishedȱinȱtheȱTaylorȱ&ȱFrancisȱeȬLibrary,ȱ2004.ȱ

Allȱrightsȱreserved.ȱNoȱpartȱofȱthisȱbookȱmayȱbeȱreprintedȱorȱreproducedȱ orȱutilisedȱinȱanyȱformȱorȱbyȱanyȱelectronic,ȱmechanical,ȱorȱotherȱmeans,ȱ

nowȱknownȱorȱhereafterȱinvented,ȱincludingȱphotocopyingȱandȱ recording,ȱorȱinȱanyȱinformationȱstorageȱorȱretrievalȱsystem,ȱwithoutȱ

permissionȱinȱwritingȱfromȱtheȱpublishers.ȱ

BritishȱLibraryȱCataloguingȱinȱPublicationȱDataȱȱ AȱcatalogueȱrecordȱforȱthisȱbookȱisȱavailableȱfromȱtheȱBritishȱ

Libraryȱ

LibraryȱofȱCongressȱCataloguingȱinȱPublicationȱDataȱȱ Bohm,ȱDavid.ȱȱ

Thoughtȱasȱaȱsystem/DavidȱBohmȱ p.ȱcm.ȱ

ȱIncludesȱindex.ȱȱ 1.ȱPhilosophyȱofȱmind.ȱ2.ȱKnowledge,ȱTheoryȱof.ȱI.ȱTitleȱ

ȱBD418.3.R64ȱ1994ȱȱ 128ȇ.2Ȭdc20ȱ93Ȭ46728ȱ

ISBNȱ0Ȭ203Ȭ20224Ȭ4ȱMasterȱeȬbookȱISBNȱ

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ISBNȱ0Ȭ203Ȭ26616Ȭ1ȱ(AdobeȱeReaderȱFormat)ȱȱ ISBNȱ0Ȭ415Ȭ11980Ȭ4ȱ(hbk)ȱȱ ISBNȱ0Ȭ415Ȭ11030Ȭ0ȱ(pbk)ȱ ȱ

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DavidȱBohmȱdiedȱinȱ1992.ȱ

Thisȱbookȱisȱdedicatedȱtoȱhisȱmemory.ȱ ȱ

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CONTENTSȱȱ

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Forewordȱ...................................ȱxȱ

Acknowledgementsȱ.............ȱxviiȱ

Fridayȱeveningȱ.........................ȱ1ȱ

Saturdayȱmorningȱ..................ȱ55ȱ

Saturdayȱafternoonȱ..............ȱ114ȱ

Sundayȱmorningȱ..................ȱ192ȱ

Sundayȱafternoonȱ................ȱ246�

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FOREWORDȱ ȱ

InȱThoughtȱ asȱ aȱ Systemȱ theoreticalȱphysicistȱDavidȱBohmȱ takesȱ asȱhisȱ subjectȱ theȱ roleȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ andȱ knowledgeȱ atȱ everyȱ levelȱ ofȱ humanȱ affairs,ȱfromȱourȱprivateȱreflectionsȱonȱpersonalȱidentityȱtoȱourȱcollectiveȱ effortsȱ toȱ fashionȱaȱ tolerableȱcivilization.ȱElaboratingȱuponȱprinciplesȱofȱ theȱ relationshipȱ betweenȱ mindȱ andȱ matterȱ firstȱ putȱ forwardȱ inȱ WholenessȱandȱtheȱImplicateȱOrder,ȱDrȱBohmȱrejectsȱtheȱnotionȱthatȱourȱ thinkingȱprocessesȱneutrallyȱreportȱonȱwhatȱisȱ ȇoutȱthereȇȱinȱanȱobjectiveȱ world.ȱHeȱexploresȱtheȱmannerȱinȱwhichȱthoughtȱactivelyȱparticipatesȱinȱ formingȱourȱperceptions,ȱourȱsenseȱofȱmeaningȱandȱourȱdailyȱactions.ȱHeȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ collectiveȱ thoughtȱ andȱ knowledgeȱ haveȱ becomeȱ soȱ automatedȱ thatȱ weȱ areȱ inȱ largeȱ partȱ controlledȱ byȱ them,ȱ withȱ aȱ subsequentȱ lossȱ ofȱ authenticity,ȱ freedomȱ andȱ order.ȱ Inȱ threeȱ daysȱ ofȱ conversationȱwithȱfiftyȱseminarȱparticipantsȱinȱOjai,ȱCalifornia,ȱDrȱBohmȱ offersȱaȱ radicalȱperspectiveȱonȱanȱunderlyingȱsourceȱofȱhumanȱconflict,ȱ andȱ inquiresȱ intoȱ theȱ possibilityȱ ofȱ individualȱ andȱ collectiveȱ transformation.ȱ

InȱBohmȇsȱview,ȱweȱhaveȱinheritedȱaȱbeliefȱthatȱmindȱ(orȱthought)ȱisȱofȱanȱ inherentlyȱ differentȱ andȱ higherȱ orderȱ thanȱ matter.ȱ Thisȱ beliefȱ hasȱ nurturedȱaȱfaithȱinȱwhatȱweȱcallȱobjectivityȱ—theȱcapacityȱtoȱobserveȱandȱ reportȱneutrallyȱonȱ someȱobjectȱorȱevent,ȱwithoutȱhavingȱanyȱeffectȱonȱ whatȱweȱareȱlookingȱat,ȱorȱwithoutȱbeingȱaffectedȱbyȱit.ȱHistorically,ȱthisȱ perspectiveȱhasȱgivenȱusȱaȱ scientificȱandȱ culturalȱworldȱviewȱ inȱwhichȱ isolated,ȱ fragmentaryȱ partsȱ mechanicallyȱ interactȱ withȱ oneȱ another.ȱ Bohmȱpointsȱoutȱ thatȱ thisȱ fragmentaryȱviewȱ correspondsȱ toȱ ȇrealityȇȱ inȱ significantȱrespects,ȱbutȱsuggestsȱthatȱweȱhaveȱoverextendedȱourȱfaithȱinȱ

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theȱ objectivistȱ perspective.ȱ Onceȱ weȱ makeȱ theȱ criticalȱ (andȱ false)ȱ assumptionȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ andȱ knowledgeȱ areȱ notȱ participatingȱ inȱ ourȱ senseȱofȱreality,ȱbutȱonlyȱreportingȱonȱit,ȱweȱareȱcommittedȱtoȱaȱviewȱthatȱ doesȱ notȱ takeȱ intoȱ accountȱ theȱ complex,ȱ unbrokenȱ processesȱ thatȱ underlieȱtheȱworldȱasȱweȱexperienceȱit.ȱ

Toȱ helpȱ bringȱ intoȱ focusȱ thoughtȇsȱ participatoryȱ nature,ȱ Bohmȱ undertakesȱ anȱ extensiveȱ redefinitionȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ itself.ȱ Toȱ beginȱwith,ȱ thoughtȱisȱnotȱfresh,ȱdirectȱperception.ȱItȱisȱliterallyȱthatȱwhichȱhasȱbeenȱ ȇthoughtȇ—theȱ past,ȱ carriedȱ forwardȱ intoȱ theȱ present.ȱ Itȱ isȱ theȱ instantaneousȱdisplayȱofȱmemory,ȱaȱsuperimpositionȱofȱimagesȱontoȱtheȱ active,ȱlivingȱpresent.ȱOnȱtheȱoneȱhand,ȱthisȱmemoryȱisȱwhatȱallowsȱusȱtoȱ performȱ evenȱ theȱ simplestȱ ofȱ tasks,ȱ suchȱ asȱ gettingȱ dressedȱ inȱ theȱ morning.ȱOnȱ theȱ otherȱ hand,ȱmemoryȱ isȱ alsoȱ responsibleȱ forȱ variousȱ aspectsȱ ofȱ fear,ȱ anxietyȱ orȱ apprehension,ȱ andȱ theȱ actionsȱ thatȱ proceedȱ fromȱtheseȱmemories.ȱThought,ȱthen,ȱ isȱalsoȱ inclusiveȱofȱfeelings,ȱ inȱtheȱ formȱ ofȱ latentȱ emotionalȱ experiences.ȱ Notȱ onlyȱ negative,ȱ painfulȱ emotionsȱareȱ foldedȱ intoȱ thought,ȱbutȱpleasurableȱonesȱasȱwell.ȱ Indeed,ȱ theȱwholeȱspectrumȱofȱemotionsȱasȱweȱtypicallyȱexperienceȱthemȱisȱseenȱ byȱBohmȱasȱ thoughtȬrelated.ȱTheȱmannerȱ inȱwhichȱ feelingȱandȱ thoughtȱ interpenetrateȱoneȱanotherȱisȱcentralȱtoȱBohmȇsȱviewȱofȱtheȱfunctioningȱofȱ consciousness.ȱ Throughoutȱ theȱmindȱ andȱ body,ȱ heȱ says,ȱ theyȱ formȱ aȱ structureȱofȱneurophysiologicalȱ reflexes.ȱThroughȱ repetition,ȱ emotionalȱ intensityȱ andȱ defensiveness,ȱ theseȱ reflexesȱ becomeȱ ȇhardȬwiredȇȱ inȱ consciousness,ȱtoȱsuchȱanȱextentȱthatȱtheyȱrespondȱindependentlyȱofȱourȱ consciousȱ choice.ȱ If,ȱ forȱ example,ȱ someoneȱ tellsȱ youȱ thatȱ aȱmemberȱ ofȱ yourȱ familyȱ isȱ bothȱ uglyȱ andȱ stupid,ȱ youȱ willȱ mostȱ likelyȱ haveȱ instantaneousȱ surgesȱ ofȱ adrenalinȱ andȱ bloodȱ pressureȱ thatȱ areȱ inseparableȱfromȱyourȱthought:ȱ ȇHeȱ isȱwrong!ȱHeȱ isȱrudeȱandȱmaliciousȱ forȱ sayingȱ suchȱ things!ȇȱTheȱ thoughtȱ ȇHeȱ isȱwrong!ȇȱwillȱ tendȱ toȱ justifyȱ

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andȱ perpetuateȱ theȱ bodilyȱ surges.ȱ Likewise,ȱ theȱ surgesȱ willȱ tendȱ toȱ certifyȱtheȱthought.ȱInȱtime,ȱtheȱexperienceȱwillȱfade,ȱbutȱitȱisȱeffectivelyȱ storedȱ inȱ theȱ memoryȱ andȱ becomesȱ ȇthoughtȇ.ȱ Thereȱ itȱ waitsȱ toȱ beȱ instantlyȱrecalledȱtheȱnextȱtimeȱaȱsimilarȱsituationȱisȱencountered.ȱ

Inȱadditionȱ toȱemotionsȱandȱreflexes,ȱBohmȱ includesȱhumanȱartifactsȱ inȱ hisȱdefinitionȱofȱ thought.ȱComputerȱsystems,ȱmusicalȱ instruments,ȱcars,ȱ buildings—theseȱ areȱ allȱ illustrationsȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ inȱ itsȱ fixed,ȱ concreteȱ form.ȱ Fromȱ Bohmȇsȱ perspective,ȱ toȱ makeȱ aȱ fundamentalȱ separationȱ betweenȱthoughtȱandȱitsȱproductsȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱequivalentȱofȱsuggestingȱ thatȱwhetherȱaȱpersonȱisȱmaleȱorȱfemaleȱisȱaȱseparateȱphenomenonȱfromȱ theȱ geneticȱ processȱ thatȱ determinedȱ theȱ sexȱ toȱ beginȱ with.ȱ Suchȱ aȱ separationȱ wouldȱ inȱ factȱ illustrateȱ theȱ veryȱ fragmentationȱ underȱ examination.ȱ Finally,ȱ Bohmȱ positsȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ andȱ knowledgeȱ areȱ primarilyȱcollectiveȱphenomena.ȱOurȱcommonȱexperienceȱisȱthatȱweȱhaveȱ personalȱ thoughtsȱ thatȱ comeȱ fromȱ ourȱ individualȱ ȇself.ȱBohmȱ suggestsȱ thatȱthisȱisȱaȱculturallyȱinheritedȱsensibilityȱthatȱoveremphasizesȱtheȱroleȱ ofȱisolatedȱparts.ȱHeȱinvertsȱthisȱview,ȱnotingȱthatȱtheȱ ȇflowȱofȱmeaningȇȱ betweenȱ peopleȱ isȱmoreȱ fundamentalȱ thanȱ anyȱ individualȇsȱ particularȱ thoughts.ȱ Theȱ individualȱ isȱ thusȱ seenȱ asȱ anȱ idiosyncrasyȱ (literally,ȱ ȇprivateȱmixtureȇ)ȱ ofȱ theȱ collectiveȱmovementȱ ofȱ values,ȱmeaningsȱ andȱ intentions.ȱTheȱ essentialȱ relevanceȱofȱBohmȇsȱ redefinitionȱofȱ thoughtȱ isȱ theȱ proposalȱ thatȱ body,ȱ emotion,ȱ intellect,ȱ reflexȱ andȱ artifactȱ areȱ nowȱ understoodȱasȱoneȱunbrokenȱfieldȱofȱmutuallyȱinformingȱthought.ȱAllȱofȱ theseȱ componentsȱ interpenetrateȱ oneȱ anotherȱ toȱ suchȱ anȱ extent,ȱ saysȱ Bohm,ȱ thatȱweȱareȱcompelledȱ toȱ seeȱ ȇthoughtȱasȱaȱ systemȇ—concreteȱasȱ wellȱasȱabstract,ȱactiveȱasȱwellȱasȱpassive,ȱcollectiveȱasȱwellȱasȱindividual.ȱ Ourȱtraditionalȱworldȱview,ȱinȱanȱattemptȱtoȱmaintainȱaȱsimple,ȱorderlyȱ imageȱ ofȱ causeȱ andȱ effect,ȱ doesȱ notȱ takeȱ intoȱ accountȱ theseȱ subtlerȱ aspectsȱofȱ thoughtȇsȱactivity.ȱThisȱ leadsȱ toȱwhatȱBohmȱcallsȱaȱ ȇsystemicȱ

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faultȇȱinȱtheȱwholeȱofȱthought.ȱTheȱissueȱhere,ȱsaysȱBohm,ȱisȱthatȱȇthoughtȱ doesnȇtȱknowȱitȱisȱdoingȱsomethingȱandȱthenȱstrugglesȱagainstȱwhatȱitȱisȱ doingȇ.ȱForȱexample,ȱflatteryȱisȱaȱpleasingȱexperienceȱwhichȱusuallyȱsetsȱ upȱ aȱ reflexȱ ofȱ receptivityȱ towardȱ theȱ oneȱwhoȱ flatters.ȱ Ifȱ Janeȱ failsȱ toȱ flatterȱ Johnȱwhenȱheȱexpectsȱherȱ to,ȱorȱ takesȱadvantageȱofȱhimȱ inȱsomeȱ unpleasantȱ way,ȱ Johnȱ willȱ attributeȱ hisȱ subsequentȱ badȱ feelingsȱ toȱ somethingȱ Janeȱdid.ȱHeȱ failsȱ toȱseeȱ thatȱheȱparticipatedȱ inȱconstructingȱ theȱreflexȱthatȱproducedȱnotȱonlyȱtheȱgoodȱfeelings,ȱbutȱtheȱbadȱonesȱasȱ well.ȱ Aȱ similarȱ processȱ ofȱ incoherenceȱ isȱ atȱworkȱ inȱ theȱ nationȬstate.ȱ Whenȱ theȱUnitedȱ Statesȱ attributesȱ diabolicalȱ characteristicsȱ toȱ variousȱ MiddleȱEastȱcountriesȱ thatȱ thwartȱ itsȱeasyȱaccessȱ toȱoil,ȱ itȱ isȱnotȱ takingȱ intoȱaccountȱitsȱownȱcentralȱinvolvementȱinȱanȱinternationalȱpetroleumȬ basedȱ economyȱwhichȱquiteȱnaturallyȱgivesȱ inordinateȱpowerȱ toȱ thoseȱ whoȱpossessȱcrudeȱoil.ȱ Inȱ thisȱcase,ȱ theȱ reflexiveȱ responseȱmayȱbeȱwar.ȱ Theȱ featureȱ commonȱ toȱbothȱ examplesȱ isȱ theȱ senseȱofȱbeingȱ inȱ controlȱ withȱ anȱ independentȱ response:ȱ ȇIȱwillȱ getȱ evenȱwithȱ herȇȱ orȱ ȇweȱmustȱ demonstrateȱwhereȱtheȱrealȱpowerȱliesȇ.ȱInȱBohmȇsȱview,ȱtheȱrealȱpowerȱisȱ inȱ theȱactivityȱofȱ thought.ȱWhileȱ independenceȱandȱchoiceȱappearȱ toȱbeȱ inherentȱ inȱourȱactions,ȱweȱareȱactuallyȱbeingȱdrivenȱbyȱagendasȱwhichȱ actȱfasterȱthan,ȱandȱindependentȱof,ȱourȱconsciousȱchoice.ȱBohmȱseesȱtheȱ pervasiveȱ tendencyȱofȱ thoughtȱ toȱ struggleȱ againstȱ itsȱownȱ creationsȱ asȱ theȱcentralȱdilemmaȱofȱourȱtime.ȱConsequently,ȱweȱmustȱnowȱendeavourȱ notȱonlyȱ toȱapplyȱ thought,ȱbutȱ toȱunderstandȱwhatȱ thoughtȱ is,ȱ toȱgraspȱ theȱ significanceȱ ofȱ itsȱ immediateȱ activity,ȱ bothȱ inȱ andȱ aroundȱus.ȱ Isȱ itȱ possible,ȱthen,ȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱtheȱactivityȱofȱthoughtȱwithoutȱacquiringȱaȱ newȱagenda,ȱnamely,ȱtheȱintentionȱtoȱȇfixȇȱthought?ȱCanȱweȱsuspendȱourȱ habitȱofȱdefiningȱandȱsolvingȱproblems,ȱandȱattendȱ toȱ thoughtȱasȱ ifȱ forȱ theȱfirstȱtime?ȱSuchȱopenȱlearning,ȱsaysȱBohm,ȱlaysȱtheȱfoundationȱforȱanȱ explorationȱofȱproprioception.ȱProprioceptionȱ(literally,ȱȇselfȬperceptionȇ)ȱ

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isȱ thatȱwhichȱ enablesȱusȱ toȱwalk,ȱ sit,ȱ eat,ȱorȱ engageȱ inȱanyȱotherȱdailyȱ activityȱwithoutȱ havingȱ constantlyȱ toȱmonitorȱwhatȱweȱ areȱ doing.ȱAnȱ instantaneousȱ feedbackȱ systemȱ informsȱ theȱ body,ȱ allowingȱ itȱ toȱ actȱ withoutȱconsciousȱcontrol.ȱ Ifȱweȱwishȱ toȱscratchȱaȱmosquitoȱbiteȱonȱ theȱ backȱ ofȱ ourȱ leg,ȱ itȱ isȱ proprioceptionȱ thatȱ allowsȱ usȱ toȱ scratchȱ theȱ biteȱ withoutȱ(a)ȱlookingȱatȱourȱhand,ȱ(b)ȱlookingȱatȱourȱlegȱorȱ(c)ȱhavingȱtheȱ mistakenȱimpressionȱthatȱsomeoneȱelseȱisȱscratchingȱourȱleg.ȱ

Drȱ Bohmȱ pointsȱ outȱ thatȱ whileȱ proprioceptionȱ ofȱ theȱ bodyȱ comesȱ naturally,ȱ weȱ doȱ notȱ seemȱ toȱ haveȱ proprioceptionȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ If,ȱ however,ȱmindȱandȱmatterȱareȱ indeedȱaȱ continuum,ȱ itȱ isȱ reasonableȱ toȱ exploreȱ theȱ extensionȱ ofȱ physiologicalȱ proprioceptionȱ intoȱ theȱ moreȱ subtleȱmaterialȱ activityȱofȱ thought.ȱBohmȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ theȱ immediacyȱ andȱ accuracyȱ ofȱ bodilyȱ proprioceptionȱ areȱ inhibitedȱ atȱ theȱ levelȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ dueȱ toȱ theȱ grossȱ accumulationȱ ofȱ reflexes,ȱ personifiedȱ inȱ theȱ imageȱ ofȱ aȱ ȇthinkerȇ—anȱ interiorȱ entityȱwhoȱ seemsȱ toȱ lookȱ outȱ onȱ theȱ world,ȱasȱwellȱasȱlookingȱinwardlyȱatȱemotions,ȱthoughtsȱandȱsoȱon.ȱThisȱ thinker,ȱsaysȱBohm,ȱisȱaȱproductȱofȱthought,ȱratherȱthanȱaȱtranscendentalȱ entity;ȱ andȱ theȱ thinkerȱ isȱ steadfastlyȱ committedȱ toȱ preservingȱ someȱ variationȱofȱitsȱownȱreflexiveȱstructure.ȱHereȱtheȱstateȱofȱopenȱlearningȱisȱ crucialȱ forȱnewȱunderstanding.ȱ Ifȱ theȱ reflexiveȱ structureȱ canȱbeȱ simplyȱ attendedȱto,ȱratherȱthanȱactedȱuponȱ(asȱtheȱthinkerȱwouldȱbeȱinclinedȱtoȱ do),ȱ thenȱ theȱ momentumȱ whichȱ drivesȱ theȱ reflexesȱ isȱ alreadyȱ beingȱ dissipated.ȱ Inȱ thisȱvein,ȱBohmȱoutlinesȱaȱseriesȱofȱpracticalȱexperimentsȱ whichȱ callȱ intoȱ awarenessȱ theȱ interplayȱ ofȱwordsȱ andȱ feelingsȱ inȱ theȱ formationȱ ofȱ reflexes.ȱ Thisȱ conjunctionȱ ofȱ openȱ learningȱ andȱ concreteȱ experimentsȱwithȱtheȱthoughtȬfeelingȱdynamicȱsuggestsȱtheȱbeginningȱofȱ proprioceptionȱofȱ thought.ȱSuchȱproprioceptionȱ isȱ intimatelyȱ relatedȱ toȱ thatȱwhichȱDrȱBohmȱrefersȱtoȱasȱȇinsightȇ.ȱWeȱoftenȱassociateȱinsightȱwithȱ theȱ ȇaȬha!ȇȱphenomenonȱofȱhavingȱ suddenlyȱgraspedȱ theȱ significanceȱofȱ

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someȱ puzzleȱ orȱ problem.ȱ Bohmȇsȱ notionȱ ofȱ insightȱ includesȱ suchȱ particularȱinstances,ȱbutȱextendsȱtoȱaȱmuchȱmoreȱgeneral,ȱandȱgenerative,ȱ levelȱofȱapplication.ȱHeȱseesȱinsightȱasȱanȱactiveȱenergy,ȱaȱsubtleȱlevelȱofȱ intelligenceȱinȱtheȱuniverseȱatȱlarge,ȱofȱaȱdifferentȱorderȱfromȱthatȱwhichȱ weȱcommonlyȱexperienceȱ inȱ theȱmind/matterȱdomain.ȱHeȱsuggestsȱ thatȱ suchȱinsightȱhasȱtheȱcapacityȱtoȱdirectlyȱaffectȱtheȱstructureȱofȱtheȱbrain,ȱ dispellingȱ theȱ ȇelectrochemicalȱ fogȇȱ generatedȱ byȱ accumulatedȱ reflexes.ȱ Quiteȱ unlikeȱ theȱmemoryladenȱ structureȱ ofȱ aȱ ȇthinkerȇȱ operatingȱ uponȱ thought,ȱproprioceptionȱprovidesȱaȱmediumȱofȱappropriateȱsubtletyȱ forȱ theȱ activityȱ ofȱ suchȱ insight.ȱ Inȱ thisȱway,ȱ learning,ȱ proprioceptionȱ andȱ insightȱ workȱ together,ȱ withȱ theȱ potentialȱ toȱ reorderȱ ourȱ thoughtȱ processesȱ andȱ bringȱ aboutȱ aȱ generalȱ levelȱ ofȱ coherenceȱ unavailableȱ throughȱthoughtȱalone.ȱ

Whileȱ allȱ theseȱ experimentsȱ canȱ beȱ undertakenȱ byȱ individuals,ȱ Bohmȱ pointsȱ toȱ aȱ complementaryȱ modeȱ ofȱ inquiryȱ throughȱ theȱ processȱ ofȱ groupȱ dialogue.ȱ Heȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ suchȱ meetingsȱ haveȱ noȱ advanceȱ agenda,ȱ otherȱ thanȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱ exploreȱ thought.ȱ Andȱ thoughȱ aȱ facilitatorȱmayȱbeȱusefulȱinȱtheȱbeginning,ȱtheȱmeetingsȱshouldȱbeȱfreeȱofȱ authorityȱ soȱ thatȱ peopleȱ speakȱ directlyȱ toȱ oneȱ another.ȱ Inȱ groupsȱ ofȱ twentyȱtoȱfortyȱpeople,ȱtheȱsystemicȱandȱreflexiveȱnatureȱofȱthoughtȱcanȱ comeȱ clearlyȱ intoȱ focus,ȱ elicitingȱ aȱwideȱ rangeȱ ofȱ responsesȱ fromȱ theȱ participants.ȱ SelfȬimages,ȱ assumptionsȱ andȱ prejudicesȱmayȱ allȱ emerge,ȱ oftenȱ withȱ theirȱ attendantȱ emotions—defensiveness,ȱ anger,ȱ fearȱ andȱ manyȱ others.ȱ Theȱ virtueȱ ofȱ suchȱ anȱ approach,ȱ saysȱ Bohm,ȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ groupȱmayȱ beȱ ableȱ toȱdetectȱ theȱ flowȱ ofȱmeaningȱpassingȱ amongstȱ itsȱ members.ȱThisȱmeaningȱmayȱbeȱtheȱcontentȱofȱsomeȱparticularȱsubject;ȱitȱ mayȱ alsoȱ beȱ theȱ quickenedȱ pulsesȱ thatȱ passȱ throughȱ theȱ groupȱ asȱ theȱ resultȱofȱconflictȱbetweenȱtwoȱorȱmoreȱmembers.ȱSuchȱdialogueȱholdsȱoutȱ theȱpossibilityȱofȱdirectȱinsightȱintoȱtheȱcollectiveȱmovementȱofȱthought,ȱ

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ratherȱ thanȱ itsȱ expressionȱ inȱ anyȱparticularȱ individual.ȱBohmȱ suggestsȱ thatȱtheȱpotentialȱforȱcollectiveȱintelligenceȱinherentȱinȱsuchȱgroupsȱcouldȱ leadȱ toȱaȱnewȱandȱcreativeȱartȱ form,ȱoneȱwhichȱmayȱ involveȱsignificantȱ numbersȱ ofȱpeopleȱ andȱ beneficiallyȱ affectȱ theȱ trajectoryȱ ofȱ ourȱ currentȱ civilization.ȱ

ThroughoutȱThoughtȱasȱaȱSystemȱDrȱBohmȱemphasizesȱthatȱtheȱmodelȱofȱ thoughtȱ heȱputsȱ forwardȱ isȱpropositional.ȱNotȱ onlyȱdoesȱ heȱdenyȱ anyȱ finalȱ knowledgeȱ ofȱ theseȱ issuesȱ forȱ himself;ȱ heȱ claimsȱ thatȱ noȱ suchȱ knowledgeȱ isȱevenȱpossible.ȱSuchȱknowledgeȱwouldȱbeȱ thought,ȱwhichȱ canȱ onlyȱmakeȱ approximateȱ representations.ȱ Drȱ Bohmȱ oftenȱ invokedȱ AlfredȱKorzybskiȇsȱobservationȱthatȱanyȱobjectȱofȱthoughtȱ(including,ȱforȱ Bohm,ȱ thoughtȱ itself)ȱ isȱbothȱ ȇmoreȱ thanȱwhatȱweȱ think,ȱandȱdifferentȇ.ȱ Noneȱ theȱ less,ȱ asȱ weȱ doȱ relyȱ toȱ aȱ greatȱ extentȱ onȱ imagesȱ andȱ representations,ȱ aȱ relativelyȱ accurateȱmapȱ ofȱ theȱprocessesȱ ofȱ thought,ȱ basedȱ onȱ clearȱ observationȱ andȱ soundȱ inferences,ȱ isȱ surelyȱ moreȱ desirableȱthanȱaȱflawedȱmap.ȱItȱwasȱDrȱBohmȇsȱintentionȱthatȱThoughtȱasȱ aȱSystemȱbeȱapproachedȱasȱ justȱ suchȱaȱpropositionalȱmap,ȱ toȱbeȱ testedȱ againstȱ directȱ lifeȱ experiences,ȱ andȱ measuredȱ byȱ itsȱ veracityȱ andȱ itsȱ usefulnessȱinȱreducingȱconflictȱandȱsorrowȱinȱtheȱworldȱatȱlarge.ȱ

LeeȱNicholȱOjai,ȱ CaliforniaȱSeptember,ȱȱ

1993.ȱ ȱ ȱ

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ACKNOWLEDGEMENTSȱ ȱ

Sinceȱ1986ȱDavidȱBohmȱwentȱtoȱOjai,ȱCalifornia,ȱeachȱyearȱtoȱgiveȱwhatȱ cameȱ toȱbeȱknownȱasȱ theȱDavidȱBohmȱSeminars.ȱTheseȱ seminarsȱwereȱ arrangedȱbyȱaȱsmallȱgroupȱofȱpeopleȱwithoutȱwhomȱthisȱbookȱcouldȱnotȱ haveȱbeenȱwritten,ȱforȱitȱisȱanȱaccountȱofȱtheȱ1990ȱseminar.ȱDavidȱvaluedȱ theirȱhelpȱandȱ friendshipȱveryȱmuchȱandȱ Iȱwantȱ toȱ thankȱ themȱonȱhisȱ behalf.ȱ Theyȱ areȱMichaelȱ Frederick,ȱ BoothȱHarris,ȱ DavidȱMoody,ȱ Leeȱ Nicholȱandȱ JoeȱZorskie.ȱAlso,ȱaȱ specialȱ thanksȱ toȱPhildeaȱFlemingȱandȱ Jamesȱ Brodskyȱ whoȱ transcribed,ȱ editedȱ andȱ printedȱ theseȱ transcriptsȱ makingȱthemȱavailableȱtoȱallȱwhoȱtookȱpartȱinȱtheȱseminars.ȱTheyȱwereȱinȱ constantȱ telephoneȱ contactȱ withȱ David,ȱ goingȱ intoȱ allȱ aspectsȱ ofȱ theȱ editingȱofȱtheȱaudioȬtapesȱandȱmakingȱitȱpossibleȱforȱhimȱthenȱtoȱdoȱtheȱ finalȱediting.ȱ

Noneȱofȱ thisȱwouldȱhaveȱhappenedȱwithoutȱ allȱ theȱparticipantsȱ toȱ theȱ seminarsȱwhoȱ becameȱ ourȱ friendsȱ overȱ theȱ yearsȱ andȱ theȱmanyȱ otherȱ peopleȱ involved.ȱMyȱthanksȱtoȱthemȱtoo.ȱIȱwouldȱalsoȱ likeȱtoȱthankȱtheȱ DirectorsȱandȱBoardȱofȱ theȱOakȱGroveȱSchoolȱ inȱOjai.ȱTheȱ libraryȱ thereȱ madeȱtheȱidealȱsettingȱforȱtheȱseminars.ȱ

Lastly,ȱ Iȱwantȱ toȱ thankȱDavidȱStonestreetȱofȱRoutledgeȱ forȱhisȱconstantȱ activeȱinterestȱinȱDavidȱBohmȇsȱworkȱandȱhisȱunfailingȱhelpȱtoȱme.ȱ

SarahȱBohmȱ

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FRIDAY�EVENING�

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FRIDAYȱEVENINGȱ ȱ

Weȱhaveȱmoreȱpeopleȱatȱthisȱseminarȱthanȱweȇveȱhadȱbefore,ȱaȱnumberȱofȱ whomȱareȱhereȱforȱtheȱfirstȱtime.ȱIȇllȱtryȱnotȱtoȱbeȱtooȱrepetitious,ȱbutȱweȱ mustȱgoȱoverȱsomeȱofȱtheȱoldȱground.ȱAndȱweȱhopeȱthereȱwillȱbeȱsomeȱ newȱmaterial.ȱ

Theseȱmeetingsȱhaveȱbeenȱconcernedȱwithȱ theȱquestionȱofȱ thoughtȱandȱ whatȱitȱhasȱbeenȱdoingȱinȱtheȱworld.ȱȱ

Byȱwayȱofȱreview,ȱweȱallȱknowȱ thatȱ theȱworldȱ isȱ inȱaȱdifficultȱsituationȱ andȱhasȱbeenȱbasicallyȱforȱaȱlongȱtime;ȱthatȱweȱnowȱhaveȱmanyȱcrisesȱinȱ variousȱpartsȱofȱtheȱworld.ȱWeȱhaveȱtheȱfactȱthatȱthereȱisȱnationalismȱallȱ over.ȱPeopleȱseemȱtoȱhaveȱallȱsortsȱofȱhatreds,ȱsuchȱasȱreligiousȱhatredȱorȱ racialȱhatred,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱThereȱisȱtheȱecologicalȱcrisis,ȱwhichȱgoesȱonȱandȱ offȱ theȱ backȱ burner,ȱ andȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ continuingȱ economicȱ crisisȱ developing.ȱ Peopleȱ seemȱ unableȱ toȱ getȱ togetherȱ toȱ faceȱ theȱ commonȱ problems,ȱsuchȱasȱtheȱecologicalȱoneȱorȱtheȱeconomicȱone.ȱEverythingȱisȱ interdependent;ȱandȱyetȱ theȱmoreȱ interdependentȱweȱget,ȱ theȱmoreȱweȱ seemȱ toȱ splitȱ upȱ intoȱ littleȱ groupsȱ thatȱ donȇtȱ likeȱ eachȱ otherȱ andȱ areȱ inclinedȱ toȱ fightȱ eachȱ otherȱ andȱ killȱ eachȱ other,ȱ orȱ atȱ leastȱ notȱ toȱ cooperate.ȱ

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Soȱoneȱbeginsȱ toȱwonderȱwhatȱ isȱgoingȱ toȱhappenȱ toȱ theȱhumanȱ race.ȱ Technologyȱkeepsȱonȱadvancingȱwithȱgreaterȱandȱgreaterȱpower,ȱeitherȱ forȱgoodȱorȱforȱdestruction.ȱAndȱitȱseemsȱthatȱthereȱisȱalwaysȱthisȱdangerȱ ofȱdestruction.ȱNoȱsoonerȱdoesȱtheȱrivalryȱbetweenȱtheȱWestȱandȱtheȱEastȱ sortȱ ofȱ dissolveȱ awayȱ thanȱ otherȱ conflictsȱ popȱ upȱ elsewhere.ȱ Andȱ doubtlessȱothersȱwillȱcomeȱupȱlater,ȱandȱonȱitȱgoes.ȱItȇsȱsortȱofȱendemic;ȱ itȇsȱ notȱ justȱ somethingȱ thatȱ occasionallyȱ happens.ȱ Itȇsȱ inȱ theȱ wholeȱ situation.ȱ

Iȱ thinkȱ weȱ areȱ allȱ familiarȱ withȱ thisȱ situation.ȱ Andȱ withȱ technologyȱ advancingȱyouȱhaveȱtheȱpossibilityȱthatȱnuclearȱbombsȱwillȱperhapsȱsoonȱ beȱ availableȱ toȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ dictators,ȱ evenȱ inȱ relativelyȱ smallȱ nations.ȱ Thereȱareȱbiologicalȱweaponsȱandȱchemicalȱweapons,ȱandȱotherȱkindsȱofȱ weaponsȱthatȱhavenȇtȱyetȱbeenȱinventedȱbutȱsurelyȱwill.ȱAndȱthenȱthereȱ isȱ theȱeconomyȱ toȱconsider.ȱEitherȱweȱgoȱ intoȱaȱdepression,ȱwhichȱwillȱ helpȱ saveȱ theȱ ecology,ȱorȱweȱgoȱ intoȱ aȱboom,ȱwhichȱwillȱmomentarilyȱ makeȱusȱhappyȱbutȱwillȱeventuallyȱruinȱtheȱecology.ȱIȱmeanȱtheȱfasterȱweȱ goȱintoȱprosperity,ȱtheȱfasterȱweȱcreateȱallȱofȱtheseȱotherȱproblems.ȱȱ

Itȱseemsȱthatȱwhicheverȱwayȱyouȱturn,ȱitȱdoesnȇtȱreallyȱwork.ȱWhyȱnot?ȱ Isȱthereȱanyȱwayȱout?ȱCanȱyouȱimagineȱthatȱaȱhundredȱorȱtwoȱhundredȱ orȱ fiveȱhundredȱyearsȱ ofȱ thisȱwonȇtȱ leadȱ toȱ someȱgiganticȱ catastrophe,ȱ eitherȱ toȱ theȱ ecologyȱ orȱ inȱ someȱ otherȱway?ȱPerhapsȱmoreȱwars,ȱwhoȱ knows?ȱȱ

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Peopleȱ haveȱ beenȱ dealingȱwithȱ thisȱ piecemealȱ Ȭȱ lookingȱ atȱ symptoms,ȱ sayingȱ thatȱ weȇveȱ gotȱ toȱ solveȱ thisȱ problemȱ orȱ thatȱ problemȱ orȱ thatȱ problem.ȱ Butȱ thereȱ isȱ somethingȱ deeper,ȱ whichȱ peopleȱ havenȇtȱ beenȱ considering,ȱthatȱisȱconstantlyȱgeneratingȱtheseȱproblems.ȱWeȱcanȱuseȱtheȱ analogyȱofȱaȱstream,ȱwhereȱpeopleȱareȱpouringȱpollutionȱupstreamȱatȱtheȱ sameȱtimeȱtheyȱareȱtryingȱtoȱremoveȱitȱdownstream.ȱButȱasȱtheyȱremoveȱ itȱtheyȱmayȱbeȱaddingȱmoreȱpollutionȱofȱdifferentȱkind.ȱȱ

Whatȱ isȱtheȱsourceȱofȱallȱthisȱtrouble?ȱThatȱ isȱreallyȱwhatȱweȱhaveȱbeenȱ concernedȱwithȱ inȱallȱ theseȱdialoguesȱofȱ theȱpastȱ fewȱyears.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ sourceȱ isȱ basicallyȱ inȱ thought.ȱManyȱpeopleȱwouldȱ thinkȱ thatȱ suchȱaȱstatementȱisȱcrazy,ȱbecauseȱthoughtȱisȱtheȱoneȱthingȱweȱhaveȱwithȱ whichȱtoȱsolveȱourȱproblems.ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱourȱtradition.ȱYetȱitȱlooksȱasȱifȱ theȱthingȱweȱuseȱtoȱsolveȱourȱproblemsȱisȱtheȱsourceȱofȱourȱproblems.ȱItȇsȱ likeȱgoingȱtoȱtheȱdoctorȱandȱhavingȱhimȱmakeȱyouȱ ill.ȱ Inȱfact,ȱ inȱ20ȱperȱ centȱofȱmedicalȱ casesȱweȱdoȱapparentlyȱhaveȱ thatȱgoingȱon.ȱButȱ inȱ theȱ caseȱofȱthought,ȱitȇsȱfarȱoverȱ20ȱperȱcent.ȱȱ

Iȇmȱsayingȱtheȱreasonȱweȱdonȇtȱseeȱtheȱsourceȱofȱourȱproblemsȱisȱthatȱtheȱ meansȱ byȱwhichȱweȱ tryȱ toȱ solveȱ themȱ areȱ theȱ source.ȱThatȱmayȱ seemȱ strangeȱ toȱsomebodyȱwhoȱhearsȱ itȱ forȱ theȱ firstȱ time,ȱbecauseȱourȱwholeȱ cultureȱ pridesȱ itselfȱ onȱ thoughtȱ asȱ itsȱ highestȱ achievement.ȱ Iȇmȱ notȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ theȱ achievementsȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ areȱ negligible;ȱ thereȱ areȱ veryȱgreatȱachievementsȱ inȱ technology,ȱ inȱ cultureȱandȱ inȱvariousȱotherȱ ways.ȱButȱthereȱisȱanotherȱsideȱtoȱitȱwhichȱisȱleadingȱtoȱourȱdestruction,ȱ andȱweȱhaveȱtoȱlookȱatȱthat.ȱ

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Nowȱ Iȇllȱ tryȱ toȱ sayȱwhatȱ isȱwrongȱwithȱ thought.ȱ Iȇllȱ justȱ giveȱ aȱ briefȱ summaryȱandȱthenȱweȱmightȱstartȱtalkingȱaboutȱit,ȱifȱyouȱlike.ȱȱ

Oneȱ ofȱ theȱ obviousȱ thingsȱ wrongȱ withȱ thoughtȱ isȱ fragmentation.ȱ Thoughtȱisȱbreakingȱthingsȱupȱintoȱbitsȱwhichȱshouldȱnotȱbeȱbrokenȱup.ȱ Weȱcanȱseeȱthisȱgoingȱon.ȱWeȱseeȱthatȱtheȱworldȱisȱbrokenȱupȱintoȱnationsȱ Ȭȱmoreȱ andȱmoreȱ nations.ȱRussiaȱ noȱ soonerȱ gotȱ ridȱ ofȱ theȱ communistȱ dictatorshipȱ thanȱ itȱ beganȱ breakingȱ upȱ intoȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ littleȱ bitsȱ whichȱ obviouslyȱ areȱunableȱ toȱmanage,ȱ andȱ theyȱ startedȱ fightingȱ eachȱ other.ȱ Thatȇsȱaȱsourceȱofȱconcern.ȱItȇsȱaȱconcernȱforȱtheȱwholeȱworld.ȱThereȱareȱ newȱ nationsȱ allȱ overȱ theȱ world.ȱ Duringȱ theȱ Secondȱ Worldȱ War,ȱ nationalismȱ developedȱ inȱ Latvia,ȱ Lithuaniaȱ andȱ Estonia.ȱ Theyȱ saidȱ Lithuaniaȱ forȱ Lithuanians,ȱ Latviaȱ forȱ theȱ Latvians,ȱ Armeniaȱ forȱ theȱ Armenians,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Nationalismȱhasȱbrokenȱthingsȱup,ȱandȱyetȱtheȱworldȱisȱallȱone.ȱTheȱmoreȱ technologyȱdevelops,ȱtheȱmoreȱpeopleȱdependȱonȱeachȱother.ȱButȱpeopleȱ tryȱtoȱpretendȱthatȱitȇsȱnotȱso.ȱTheyȱsayȱthatȱtheȱnationȱisȱsovereign,ȱthatȱitȱ canȱdoȱwhatȱitȱlikes.ȱAndȱyetȱitȱcanȇt.ȱTheȱUnitedȱStatesȱcanȇtȱdoȱwhatȱitȱ likesȱbecauseȱ itȱdependsȱaȱ lotȱonȱotherȱcountriesȱforȱthingsȱofȱallȱsortsȱ Ȭȱ onȱ theȱMiddleȱEastȱ forȱoil,ȱapparentlyȱonȱ Japanȱ forȱmoney.ȱAndȱ Japanȱ obviouslyȱcanȇtȱdoȱwhatȱitȱlikes.ȱThoseȱareȱjustȱsomeȱexamples.ȱȱ

Itȱseemsȱveryȱhardȱforȱhumanȱbeingsȱtoȱacceptȱseriouslyȱthisȱsimpleȱfactȱ ofȱ theȱeffectȱofȱ fragmentation.ȱNationsȱ fightȱeachȱotherȱandȱpeopleȱkillȱ eachȱother.ȱYouȱareȱtoldȱthatȱforȱtheȱnationȱyouȱmustȱsacrificeȱeverything.ȱ

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Orȱ youȱ sacrificeȱ everythingȱ forȱ yourȱ religiousȱdifferences.ȱPeopleȱ splitȱ intoȱ religiousȱ groups.ȱ Theyȱ splitȱ intoȱ racialȱ groupsȱ andȱ sayȱ thatȇsȱ allȱ important.ȱInsideȱeachȱnationȱthereȱareȱvariousȱsplits.ȱPeopleȱareȱdividedȱ upȱ intoȱ sectionsȱ andȱ intoȱ allȱ kindsȱ ofȱ interests.ȱ Theȱ divisionȱ goesȱ onȱ downȱtoȱtheȱ levelȱofȱtheȱfamily,ȱ insideȱfamiliesȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱPeopleȱareȱ supposedȱtoȱbeȱgettingȱtogether,ȱbutȱtheyȱcanȇtȱseemȱto.ȱȱ

Youȱcanȱseeȱthatȱnationsȱareȱestablishedȱbyȱthought.ȱTheȱboundaryȱofȱtheȱ nationȱisȱinventedȱbyȱthought.ȱIfȱyouȱgoȱtoȱtheȱedgeȱofȱtheȱnation,ȱthereȇsȱ nothingȱtoȱtellȱyouȱthatȱitȱisȱaȱboundary,ȱunlessȱsomebodyȱmakesȱaȱwallȱ orȱ something.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ land;ȱ theȱ peopleȱ mayȱ oftenȱ beȱ notȱ veryȱ different.ȱ Butȱ whatȱ isȱ oneȱ sideȱ orȱ theȱ otherȱ seemsȱ allȱ important.ȱ Itȇsȱ thoughtȱthatȱȇmakeȱitȱsoȇ:ȱȱ

IȱwasȱinformedȱthatȱmostȱofȱtheȱnationsȱofȱtheȱMiddleȱEastȱwereȱinventedȱ eitherȱbyȱtheȱBritishȱorȱtheȱFrench,ȱwhoseȱvariousȱbureaucratsȱdrewȱlinesȱ andȱ determinedȱ theȱ boundaryȱ ofȱ thisȱ nation,ȱ thatȱ nation,ȱ thatȱ nation.ȱ Andȱthereȱtheyȱwere.ȱSoȱthenȱtheyȱhaveȱtoȱfightȱeachȱother.ȱȱ

Inȱ otherȱwords,ȱwhatȱweȱ areȱ doingȱ isȱ establishingȱ boundariesȱwhereȱ reallyȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ closeȱ connectionȱ Ȭȱ thatȇsȱ whatȱ isȱ wrongȱ withȱ fragmentation.ȱAndȱ atȱ theȱ sameȱ timeȱweȱ areȱ tryingȱ toȱ establishȱ unityȱ whereȱthereȱisnȇtȱany,ȱorȱnotȱveryȱmuch.ȱWeȱsayȱweȇreȱallȱoneȱinsideȱtheȱ boundary.ȱButȱwhenȱyouȱ lookȱatȱ theseȱgroups,ȱ theyȱareȱnotȱactuallyȱallȱ one.ȱTheyȱareȱ fightingȱeachȱotherȱ insideȱ theȱboundaryȱasȱmuchȱasȱ theyȱ areȱfightingȱoutside.ȱȱ

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Weȱcanȱalsoȱconsiderȱprofessionalȱgroups.ȱInȱscience,ȱforȱinstance,ȱeveryȱ littleȱspecialtyȱisȱfragmentedȱfromȱeveryȱotherȱone.ȱPeopleȱhardlyȱknowȱ whatȱ isȱ happeningȱ inȱ aȱ somewhatȱ differentȱ field.ȱ Andȱ itȱ goesȱ on.ȱ Knowledgeȱisȱfragmented.ȱEverythingȱgetsȱbrokenȱup.ȱȱ

Thusȱweȱhaveȱfalseȱdivisionȱandȱfalseȱunification.ȱThoughtȱisȱpretendingȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ sharpȱ divisionȱ outsideȱ andȱ thatȱ everythingȱ isȱ unifiedȱ inside,ȱwhenȱitȇsȱreallyȱnotȱso.ȱThisȱisȱaȱfictionalȱwayȱofȱthinking.ȱButȱtoȱ goȱonȱwithȱthisȱfictionalȱwayȱofȱthinkingȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱveryȱimportant,ȱsoȱ importantȱ thatȱ theȱactualȱ factȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱwrong,ȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ itȇsȱnotȱ thatȱ wayȱatȱall,ȱisȱignored.ȱȱ

Itȱseemsȱstrange.ȱWhyȱshouldȱpeopleȱdoȱsuchȱaȱstrangeȱ thing?ȱ Itȱ reallyȱ couldȱbeȱ thoughtȱofȱasȱ irrationalȱatȱ theȱveryȱ least,ȱorȱperhapsȱcrazy.ȱSoȱ muchȱ trouble,ȱwhichȱmayȱ evenȱpreventȱourȱ survival,ȱ isȱ createdȱoutȱofȱ suchȱsmallȱthings.ȱ

Theȱmoreȱgeneralȱdifficultyȱwithȱ thoughtȱ isȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱveryȱactive,ȱ itȇsȱ participatoryȱ andȱ fragmentationȱ isȱ itselfȱ aȱ symptomȱ ofȱ theȱ moreȱ generalȱdifficulty.ȱThoughtȱ isȱalwaysȱdoingȱaȱgreatȱdeal,ȱbutȱ itȱ tendsȱ toȱ sayȱthatȱitȱhasnȇtȱdoneȱanything,ȱthatȱitȱisȱjustȱtellingȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱ are.ȱButȱ thoughtȱaffectsȱeverything.ȱ Itȱhasȱcreatedȱeverythingȱweȱseeȱ inȱ thisȱbuilding.ȱ Itȱhasȱaffectedȱallȱ theȱ trees;ȱ itȱhasȱaffectedȱ theȱmountains,ȱ theȱplainsȱandȱ theȱ farmsȱandȱ theȱ factoriesȱandȱ scienceȱandȱ technology.ȱ EvenȱtheȱSouthȱPoleȱhasȱbeenȱaffectedȱbecauseȱofȱtheȱdestructionȱofȱtheȱ

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ozoneȱlayer,ȱwhichȱisȱbasicallyȱdueȱtoȱthought.ȱPeopleȱthoughtȱthatȱtheyȱ wantedȱtoȱhaveȱrefrigerantȱ Ȭȱaȱniceȱsafeȱrefrigerantȱ Ȭȱandȱtheyȱbuiltȱthatȱ allȱupȱ byȱ thinkingȱmoreȱ andȱmoreȱ aboutȱ it.ȱAndȱ nowȱweȱ haveȱ ozoneȱ layerȱbeingȱdestroyed.ȱȱ

Thoughtȱ hasȱ producedȱ tremendousȱ effectsȱ outwardly.ȱ And,ȱ asȱ weȇllȱ discussȱ furtherȱ on,ȱ itȱ producesȱ tremendousȱ effectsȱ inwardlyȱ inȱ eachȱ person.ȱYetȱtheȱgeneralȱtacitȱassumptionȱinȱthoughtȱisȱthatȱitȇsȱjustȱtellingȱ youȱ theȱwayȱ thingsȱareȱandȱ thatȱ isȱnotȱdoingȱanythingȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ ȇyouȇȱareȱ insideȱthere,ȱdecidingȱwhatȱtoȱdoȱwithȱtheȱinformation.ȱButȱIȱwantȱtoȱsayȱ thatȱyouȱdonȇtȱdecideȱwhatȱtoȱdoȱwithȱtheȱinformation.ȱTheȱinformationȱ takesȱover.ȱItȱrunsȱyou.ȱThoughtȱrunsȱyou.ȱThought,ȱhowever,ȱgivesȱtheȱ falseȱ informationȱ thatȱ youȱ areȱ runningȱ it,ȱ thatȱ youȱ areȱ theȱ oneȱ whoȱ controlsȱ thought,ȱwhereasȱ actuallyȱ thoughtȱ isȱ theȱ oneȱwhichȱ controlsȱ eachȱ oneȱ ofȱ us.ȱ Untilȱ thoughtȱ isȱ understoodȱ Ȭȱ betterȱ yet,ȱ moreȱ thanȱ understood,ȱperceivedȱȬȱitȱwillȱactuallyȱcontrolȱusȱ ;ȱbutȱitȱwillȱcreateȱtheȱ impressionȱthatȱitȱisȱourȱservant,ȱthatȱitȱisȱ justȱdoingȱwhatȱweȱwantȱitȱtoȱ do.ȱȱ

Thatȇsȱ theȱ difficulty.ȱ Thoughtȱ isȱ participatingȱ andȱ thenȱ sayingȱ itȇsȱ notȱ participating.ȱButȱitȱisȱtakingȱpartȱinȱeverything.ȱ

Fragmentationȱ isȱaȱparticularȱcaseȱofȱ that.ȱThoughtȱ isȱcreatingȱdivisionsȱ outȱofȱitselfȱandȱthenȱsayingȱthatȱtheyȱareȱthereȱnaturally.ȱTheȱdivisionsȱ betweenȱ nationsȱ areȱ regardedȱ asȱ beingȱ ȇjustȱ thereȇ,ȱ butȱ obviouslyȱ theyȱ wereȱ inventedȱ byȱ people.ȱ Peopleȱ haveȱ comeȱ toȱ acceptȱ thoseȱ divisionsȱ

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andȱthatȱmadeȱthemȱbeȱthere.ȱTheȱsameȱholdsȱforȱtheȱdivisionsȱbetweenȱ religions.ȱEveryȱ religionȱwasȱ inventedȱbyȱ somebodyȇsȱ thinkingȱ thatȱheȱ hadȱaȱcertainȱideaȱaboutȱGodȱthatȱwasȱrightȱandȱtrue.ȱEventuallyȱpeopleȱ thoughtȱ thatȱ otherȱ religionsȱ werenȇtȱ right,ȱ thatȱ otherȱ religionsȱ wereȱ inferior,ȱperhapsȱ evenȱhereticalȱorȱ evilȱorȱwrong,ȱ thatȱ theyȱ couldȱ fightȱ them,ȱtryȱtoȱsuppressȱthemȱandȱdestroyȱthem.ȱThereȱwereȱvastȱreligiousȱ wars.ȱ Andȱ weȱ mayȱ stillȱ haveȱ moreȱ coming,ȱ inȱ spiteȱ ofȱ allȱ theȱ developmentȱ ofȱ theȱ enlightenment,ȱ knowledgeȱ andȱ scienceȱ andȱ technology.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱ scienceȱ andȱ technologyȱnowȱ seem,ȱ atȱ leastȱ equallyȱ well,ȱ toȱ serveȱ thoseȱwhoȱ areȱ perhapsȱ atȱ aȱmoreȱMediaevalȱ stageȱ asȱ itȱ servesȱ thoseȱwhoȱ regardȱ themselvesȱ asȱmoreȱ advanced.ȱAnybodyȱ canȱ useȱ scienceȱ andȱ technologyȱ withoutȱ fundamentallyȱ alteringȱ hisȱ ownȱ frameȱofȱmindȱwhichȱgovernsȱhowȱtheyȱareȱused.ȱȱ

Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ theȱ characterȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ doingȱ somethingȱ andȱ sayingȱitȱisnȇtȱdoingȱit.ȱNow,ȱweȱreallyȱhaveȱtoȱgoȱintoȱthat,ȱtoȱdiscussȱitȱaȱ greatȱdeal,ȱbecauseȱwhatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ actuallyȱdoingȱ isȱveryȱmuchȱmoreȱ subtleȱthanȱwhatȱIȇveȱdescribedȱȬȱthatȇsȱonlyȱtheȱbeginning.ȱ

Anotherȱ problemȱ ofȱ fragmentationȱ isȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ dividesȱ itselfȱ fromȱ feelingȱandȱfromȱtheȱbody.ȱThoughtȱisȱsaidȱtoȱbeȱtheȱmind;ȱweȱhaveȱtheȱ notionȱthatȱitȱisȱsomethingȱabstractȱorȱspiritualȱorȱimmaterial.ȱThenȱthereȱ isȱ theȱbody,ȱwhichȱ isȱveryȱphysical.ȱAndȱweȱhaveȱemotions,ȱwhichȱareȱ perhapsȱ somewhereȱ inȱbetween.ȱTheȱ ideaȱ isȱ thatȱ theyȱareȱallȱdifferent.ȱ Thatȱ is,ȱ weȱ thinkȱ ofȱ themȱ asȱ different.ȱ Andȱ weȱ experienceȱ themȱ asȱ differentȱbecauseȱweȱthinkȱofȱthemȱasȱdifferent.ȱ

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Butȱ thoughtȱ isȱ notȱ differentȱ fromȱ emotion.ȱWeȇllȱ discussȱ thisȱ inȱmoreȱ detailȱlater;ȱbutȱforȱaȱveryȱelementaryȱexample,ȱifȱyouȱthinkȱthatȱaȱcertainȱ personȱ hasȱ treatedȱ youȱ badlyȱ youȱ mayȱ getȱ angry.ȱ Supposeȱ thatȱ somebodyȱkeepsȱyouȱwaitingȱ forȱaȱcoupleȱofȱhours.ȱYouȱcanȱgetȱangryȱ thinking:ȱ ȇWhatȱdoesȱheȱmeanȱtreatingȱmeȱlikeȱthis?ȱHeȱhasȱnoȱconcern,ȱ noȱconsiderationȱ forȱme.ȇȱYouȱcanȱ thinkȱofȱvariousȱ things:ȱ ȇHeȇsȱalwaysȱ doingȱthis,ȱheȱtreatsȱmeȱbadlyȇ,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱByȱthinkingȱthatȱwayȱyouȱcanȱ getȱveryȱangry.ȱThenȱifȱheȱcomesȱandȱexplainsȱthatȱtheȱtrainȱwasȱlate,ȱtheȱ angerȱgoes.ȱThisȱshowsȱthatȱtheȱemotionȱwasȱinfluencedȱbyȱthought.ȱByȱ changingȱyourȱthought,ȱtheȱangerȱfades.ȱ

Soȱthoughtȱatȱleastȱcanȱsustainȱthoseȱfeelings.ȱTheȱthoughtȱofȱsomethingȱ pleasantȱwillȱmakeȱyouȱfeelȱgood.ȱTheȱthoughtȱthatȱyouȱareȱdoingȱgreatȱ willȱmakeȱyouȱfeelȱgoodȱinsideȱȬȱallȱtheȱgoodȱfeelingsȱwillȱcomeȱout.ȱOrȱ theȱ thoughtȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ doneȱ somethingȱ wrongȱ mayȱ makeȱ theȱ adrenalinȱ flow,ȱmayȱmakeȱ youȱ feelȱ guilty.ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱ saysȱ youȱ areȱ guilty,ȱwhichȱisȱaȱthought,ȱthenȱyouȱcanȱfeelȱveryȱmiserable.ȱFeelingsȱareȱ tremendouslyȱ affectedȱ byȱ thoughts.ȱ Andȱ obviouslyȱ thoughtsȱ areȱ tremendouslyȱ affectedȱ byȱ feelings,ȱ becauseȱ ifȱyouȱ areȱ angryȱyouȱdonȇtȱ thinkȱ clearly.ȱLikewise,ȱ ifȱyouȱhaveȱaȱ feelingȱofȱpleasureȱ inȱ something,ȱ youȱmayȱ findȱ yourselfȱ reluctantȱ toȱ giveȱupȱ thatȱ ideaȱwhichȱ givesȱ youȱ pleasure,ȱevenȱifȱitȱisȱwrongȱȬȱyouȱengageȱinȱselfȱdeception.ȱȱ

Thereȇsȱ aȱ goodȱ physicalȱ reasonȱ thatȱ feelingsȱ andȱ thoughtsȱ affectȱ eachȱ other;ȱyouȱcanȱseeȱitȱinȱtheȱstructureȱofȱtheȱbrain.ȱThereȱisȱanȱintellectualȱ centreȱinȱtheȱcortex,ȱtheȱouterȱlayersȱofȱtheȱbrain.ȱAndȱdeeperȱdownȱthereȱ isȱanȱemotionalȱcentre.ȱBetweenȱthemȱisȱaȱveryȱthickȱbundleȱofȱnerves,ȱbyȱ

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whichȱtheyȱcommunicateȱveryȱclosely.ȱSoȱtheyȱareȱconnected.ȱThereȱwasȱ aȱ famousȱcaseȱ inȱ theȱnineteenthȱcenturyȱofȱaȱmanȱwhoȱhadȱanȱ ironȱpinȱ drivenȱthroughȱhisȱbrainȱbyȱanȱexplosion.ȱHeȱapparentlyȱrecoveredȱfromȱ this,ȱ andȱheȱwasȱphysicallyȱmoreȱorȱ lessȱnormal.ȱButȱ althoughȱheȱhadȱ beenȱ aȱ veryȱ levelȬheadedȱ man,ȱ afterȱ heȱ recoveredȱ heȱ wasȱ totallyȱ unbalancedȱemotionally,ȱandȱintellectuallyȱheȱcouldnȇtȱmaintainȱanyȱveryȱ consistentȱ lineȱofȱ thought.ȱTheȱbreakingȱofȱ theȱ connectionȱbetweenȱ theȱ emotionalȱ andȱ theȱ intellectualȱ centersȱ preventedȱ theȱ systemȱ fromȱ functioning.ȱȱ

Theȱ intellectualȱ centreȱ willȱ normallyȱ tellȱ whetherȱ anȱ emotionȱ isȱ appropriateȱorȱnot.ȱThatȱisȱwhatȱhappensȱinȱtheȱexampleȱofȱbeingȱangryȱ aboutȱsomebodyȇsȱdelayingȱyouȱtwoȱhours,ȱandȱthenȱcomingȱalongȱandȱ sayingȱȇTheȱtrainȱwasȱlate.ȇȱIfȱyouȱbelieveȱhim,ȱthenȱtheȱintellectualȱcentreȱ saysȱ ȇthereȇsȱnoȱlongerȱanyȱgoodȱreasonȱtoȱbeȱangryȇ.ȱAndȱtheȱemotionalȱ centerȱdulyȱsaysȱȇOK,ȱnoȱreason,ȱIȱgiveȱupȱmyȱangerȇ.ȱAndȱviceȱversaȱȬȱtheȱ emotionalȱ centreȱmayȱ sendȱ informationȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱdanger,ȱorȱ thereȱisȱthisȱorȱthat,ȱandȱtheȱintellectualȱcenterȱpicksȱitȱupȱandȱtriesȱtoȱfindȱ outȱwhatȱisȱtheȱdanger.ȱItȱthinks.ȱ

Thoseȱcentersȱareȱintimatelyȱandȱcloselyȱrelated.ȱTheȱveryȱwishȱtoȱthinkȱ mustȱcomeȱfromȱanȱemotionȱorȱfromȱanȱimpulseȱtoȱthink.ȱTheyȱareȱreallyȱ almostȱtwoȱsidesȱofȱtheȱsameȱprocess.ȱButȱourȱ languageȱseparatesȱthemȱ andȱourȱthoughtȱseparatesȱthemȱintoȱfragments.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱemotionȱ andȱintellectȱareȱcloselyȱconnected,ȱbutȱweȱintroduceȱintoȱourȱthoughtȱaȱ veryȱ sharpȱ divisionȱ Ȭȱ justȱ likeȱ theȱ oneȱ betweenȱ nationsȱ Ȭȱwhereȱ thereȱ

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reallyȱisnȇtȱsuchȱaȱdivision.ȱWeȇreȱintroducingȱaȱfictionalȱwayȱofȱthinkingȱ aboutȱthisȱsituation.ȱIfȱourȱthinkingȱisȱfictional,ȱitȱwillȱmisleadȱus.ȱ

Itȱ isȱ worthȱ repeatingȱ whatȱ Iȇveȱ saidȱ theȱ lastȱ fewȱ yearsȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ inȱ ourȱ languageȱ weȱ haveȱ aȱ distinctionȱ betweenȱ ȇthinkingȇȱ andȱ ȇthoughtȇ.ȱ ȇThinkingȇȱimpliesȱtheȱpresentȱtenseȱȬȱsomeȱactivityȱgoingȱonȱwhichȱmayȱ includeȱcriticalȱsensitivityȱtoȱwhatȱcanȱgoȱwrong.ȱAlsoȱthereȱmayȱbeȱnewȱ ideas,ȱ andȱ perhapsȱ occasionallyȱ perceptionȱ ofȱ someȱ kindȱ inside.ȱ ȇThoughtȇȱ isȱ theȱpastȱparticipleȱofȱ that.ȱWeȱhaveȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱafterȱweȱ haveȱ beenȱ thinkingȱ something,ȱ itȱ justȱ evaporates.ȱButȱ thinkingȱdoesnȇtȱ disappear.ȱItȱgoesȱsomehowȱintoȱtheȱbrainȱandȱleavesȱsomethingȱȬȱaȱtraceȱ Ȭȱ whichȱ becomesȱ thought.ȱ Andȱ thoughtȱ thenȱ actsȱ automatically.ȱ Theȱ exampleȱ Iȱ gaveȱ aboutȱ theȱ personȱ whoȱ keptȱ youȱwaitingȱ showsȱ howȱ thoughtȱreinforcesȱandȱsustainsȱanger;ȱwhenȱyouȱhaveȱbeenȱthinkingȱforȱ aȱwhile,ȱȇIȱhaveȱaȱgoodȱreasonȱtoȱbeȱangryȇ,ȱtheȱemotionȱisȱthereȱandȱyouȱ remainȱangry.ȱSoȱthoughtȱisȱtheȱresponseȱfromȱmemoryȱȬȱfromȱtheȱpast,ȱ fromȱwhatȱhasȱbeenȱdone.ȱThusȱweȱhaveȱthinkingȱandȱthought.ȱȱ

Weȱ alsoȱ haveȱ theȱwordȱ ȇfeelingȇ.ȱ Itsȱ presentȱ tenseȱ suggestsȱ theȱ activeȱ present,ȱthatȱtheȱfeelingȱisȱdirectlyȱinȱcontactȱwithȱreality.ȱButȱitȱmightȱbeȱ usefulȱ toȱ introduceȱ theȱwordȱ ȇfeltȇ,ȱ toȱ sayȱ thereȱ areȱ feelingsȱ andȱ ȇfeltsȇ.ȱ Thatȱis,ȱȇfeltsȇȱareȱfeelingsȱwhichȱhaveȱbeenȱrecorded.ȱYouȱmayȱrememberȱ pleasureȱthatȱyouȱonceȱhad,ȱandȱthenȱyouȱgetȱaȱsenseȱofȱpleasure.ȱIfȱyouȱ rememberȱ painȱ youȱ hadȱ youȱ mayȱ getȱ aȱ senseȱ ofȱ pain.ȱ Aȱ traumaticȱ experienceȱ inȱ theȱ pastȱ canȱ makeȱ youȱ feelȱ veryȱ uncomfortableȱ whenȱ remembered.ȱ Nostalgicȱ feelingsȱ areȱ alsoȱ fromȱ theȱ past.ȱ Aȱ lotȱ ofȱ theȱ feelingsȱthatȱcomeȱupȱareȱreallyȱfromȱtheȱpast,ȱtheyȇreȱȇfeltsȇ.ȱByȱfailingȱtoȱ

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makeȱ thisȱ distinctionȱ weȱ oftenȱ giveȱ tooȱ muchȱ importanceȱ toȱ someȱ feelingsȱwhichȱactuallyȱdonȇtȱhaveȱthatȱmuchȱsignificance.ȱIfȱtheyȱareȱjustȱ aȱ recordingȱbeingȱ replayed,ȱ theyȱdonȇtȱhaveȱ asȱmuchȱ significanceȱ asȱ ifȱ theyȱwereȱaȱresponseȱtoȱtheȱpresentȱimmediateȱsituation.ȱȱ

Oftenȱyouȱmayȱrespondȱaccordingȱtoȱtheȱwayȱyouȱfeltȱaȱlongȱtimeȱago,ȱorȱ theȱwayȱyouȱbecameȱusedȱ toȱ feelingȱ inȱ theȱpast.ȱ Inȱeffectȱyouȱcouldȱbeȱ sayingȱ ȇwhenȱ Iȱ wasȱ aȱ child,ȱ aȱ certainȱ situationȱ madeȱ meȱ feelȱ uncomfortableȇ,ȱandȱthenȱwhenȱanyȱsimilarȱsituationȱarisesȱinȱtheȱpresentȱ youȱ feelȱuncomfortable.ȱYouȱgetȱ thatȱdiscomfortȱbecauseȱyouȱdonȇtȱ seeȱ thatȱitȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱanything.ȱButȱitȱdoesȱseemȱtoȱmeanȱaȱgreatȱdeal,ȱandȱ itȱaffectsȱyou.ȱ

Soȱnotȱonlyȱ isȱ thereȱ aȱ falseȱdivisionȱbetweenȱ thinkingȱ andȱ feeling,ȱbutȱ alsoȱbetweenȱfeelingsȱandȱȇfeltsȇ,ȱandȱtheȱwholeȱstateȱofȱtheȱbody.ȱYouȱcanȱ seeȱ thatȱ theȱ wayȱ youȱ thinkȱ canȱ getȱ adrenalinȱ flowing.ȱ Youȱ canȱ getȱ neurochemicallyȱaffectedȱallȱoverȱtheȱbody.ȱForȱexample,ȱifȱyouȱareȱinȱanȱ areaȱwhichȱyouȱthinkȱisȱdangerousȱandȱyouȱseeȱaȱshadow,ȱyourȱthoughtȱ saysȱ thatȱ thereȱareȱpeopleȱaroundȱwhoȱmightȱattackȱyou,ȱandȱ thenȱyouȱ immediatelyȱ getȱ aȱ feelingȱ ofȱ fear.ȱYourȱ adrenalinȱ startsȱ flowing,ȱ yourȱ musclesȱ tense,ȱandȱyourȱheartȱbeatsȱ rapidlyȱ Ȭȱ justȱ fromȱ theȱknowledgeȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱbeȱassailantsȱ inȱ theȱneighborhood.ȱAsȱ soonȱasȱyouȱ lookȱ andȱ sayȱ ȇitȇsȱ aȱ shadowȇ,ȱ thoseȱ physicalȱ symptomsȱ subside.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ aȱ profoundȱ connectionȱ betweenȱ theȱ stateȱ ofȱ theȱ bodyȱ andȱ theȱwayȱ youȱ think.ȱIfȱpeopleȱareȱconstantlyȱworriedȱandȱunderȱstressȱaboutȱtheirȱjobsȱ orȱsomething,ȱ theyȱmayȱstirȱupȱ theirȱstomachsȱ tooȱmuchȱandȱgetȱulcersȱ andȱvariousȱotherȱthings.ȱItȇsȱwellȱknown.ȱTheȱstateȱofȱtheȱbodyȱ isȱveryȱ

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profoundlyȱ tiedȱ toȱ thought,ȱaffectedȱbyȱ thought,ȱandȱviceȱversa.ȱThatȇsȱ anotherȱkindȱofȱfragmentationȱweȱhaveȱtoȱwatchȱoutȱfor.ȱ

Allȱofȱthisȱwillȱtendȱtoȱ introduceȱquiteȱaȱbitȱofȱconfusion,ȱorȱwhatȱIȱcallȱ ȇincoherenceȇ,ȱ intoȱ thinkingȱorȱ intoȱ actionȱbecauseȱyouȱwillȱnotȱgetȱ theȱ resultsȱyouȱexpect.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱmajorȱsignȱofȱincoherence:ȱyouȱwantȱtoȱdoȱ somethingȱbutȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱcomeȱoutȱtheȱwayȱyouȱ intend.ȱThatȇsȱusuallyȱaȱ signȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ someȱ wrongȱ informationȱ somewhere.ȱ Theȱ rightȱ approachȱwouldȱbeȱtoȱsay;ȱȇYes,ȱthatȇsȱincoherent.ȱLetȱmeȱtryȱtoȱfindȱoutȱ theȱwrongȱinformationȱandȱchangeȱit.ȇȱButȱtheȱtroubleȱis,ȱthereȱisȱaȱlotȱofȱ incoherenceȱinȱwhichȱpeopleȱdonȇtȱdoȱthat.ȱȱ

Forȱ instance,ȱperhapsȱ somebodyȱ likesȱ toȱbeȱ flatteredȱandȱheȱ thenȱ findsȱ thatȱtheȱpersonȱwhoȱflattersȱhimȱcanȱtakeȱadvantageȱofȱhim.ȱItȱhappensȱ againȱandȱagainȱandȱagain.ȱHeȱdoesnȇtȱwantȱthat,ȱbutȱitȱhappens.ȱThereȱisȱ anȱincoherenceȱthereȱbecauseȱitȇsȱnotȱhisȱintentionȱtoȱbeȱtakenȱadvantageȱ of.ȱButȱheȱhasȱanotherȱintentionȱheȱdoesnȇtȱthinkȱabout,ȱwhichȱisȱthatȱheȱ wantsȱtheȱglowȱofȱfeelingȱthatȱcomesȱfromȱtheȱflattery.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱ oneȱimpliesȱtheȱother,ȱbecauseȱifȱheȱacceptsȱtheȱflatteryȱthenȱheȱalsoȱwillȱ acceptȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ otherȱ thingsȱ theȱ personȱ saysȱ orȱ does.ȱHeȱ canȱ beȱ takenȱ advantageȱ of.ȱTherefore,ȱ heȱ hasȱ bothȱ consciousȱ intention,ȱ andȱ anotherȱ oneȱwhichȱisȱgoingȱagainstȱit.ȱThatȇsȱaȱveryȱcommonȱsituation.ȱȱ

Itȱisȱtheȱsameȱwithȱnationalism.ȱPeopleȱdidnȇtȱsetȱupȱnationsȱinȱorderȱtoȱ sufferȱ theȱwayȱ theyȇveȱ sufferedȱ Ȭȱ toȱ sufferȱ endlessȱwarsȱ andȱ hateȱ andȱ starvationȱandȱdiseaseȱandȱannihilationȱandȱslaveryȱandȱwhatnot.ȱWhenȱ

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theyȱ setȱupȱ theȱnationsȱ itȱwasȱnotȱ theirȱ intentionȱ toȱdoȱ that.ȱButȱ thatȇsȱ whatȱhasȱhappened.ȱAndȱ itȱwouldȱ inevitablyȱhappen.ȱTheȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱ peopleȱrarelyȱlookȱatȱtheȱnationȱandȱask,ȱȇwhatȇsȱitȱallȱabout?ȇȱRather,ȱtheyȱ sayȱ ȇatȱallȱcostsȱweȇveȱgotȱ toȱgoȱonȱwithȱ thisȱnation,ȱbutȱweȱdonȇtȱwantȱ theseȱconsequencesȇ.ȱAndȱ theyȱstruggleȱagainstȱ theȱconsequencesȱwhileȱ theyȱkeepȱonȱproducingȱtheȱsituation.ȱ

Thisȱ isȱ anotherȱmajorȱ featureȱ ofȱ thought:ȱ thoughtȱ doesnȇtȱ knowȱ itȱ isȱ doingȱsomethingȱandȱthenȱitȱstrugglesȱagainstȱwhatȱitȱisȱdoing.ȱItȱdoesnȇtȱ wantȱ toȱ knowȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ doingȱ it.ȱAndȱ itȱ strugglesȱ againstȱ theȱ results,ȱ tryingȱtoȱavoidȱthoseȱunpleasantȱresultsȱwhileȱkeepingȱonȱwithȱthatȱwayȱ ofȱ thinking.ȱ Thatȱ isȱ whatȱ Iȱ callȱ sustainedȱ incoherence.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ alsoȱ simpleȱ incoherence,ȱwhichȱweȱcanȇtȱavoidȱhavingȱbecauseȱ thoughtsȱareȱ alwaysȱ incompleteȱ Ȭȱ thoughtȱ canȱ neverȱ beȱ complete,ȱ asȱweȇllȱ discussȱ later.ȱ Butȱ whenȱ weȱ findȱ thatȱ whatȱ isȱ happeningȱ isȱ contradictoryȱ orȱ confusedȱ orȱ isnȇtȱ doingȱwhatȱweȱ expect,ȱ thenȱweȱ shouldȱ changeȱ ourȱ thoughtsȱ toȱreflectȱwhatȱ isȱhappening.ȱAndȱ inȱsimpleȱsituationsȱweȱdo.ȱ Whenȱitȱcomesȱtoȱthingsȱthatȱmatterȱtoȱus,ȱthough,ȱitȱseemsȱweȱgenerallyȱ donȇt.ȱNowȱ thisȱ isȱratherȱodd,ȱbecauseȱ theȱ thingsȱ thatȱmatterȱareȱwhereȱ weȱoughtȱtoȱbeȱespeciallyȱcoherent.ȱHowever,ȱweȱfeelȱweȱcanȱaffordȱtoȱbeȱ coherentȱonlyȱinȱtheȱthingsȱthatȱdonȇtȱmatterȱtooȱmuchȱȬȱwhichȱisȱanotherȱ kindȱofȱincoherence.ȱ

Nobodyȱ hasȱ theȱ intentionȱ ofȱ producingȱ thisȱ sortȱ ofȱ situation.ȱWeȱ areȱ producingȱtheseȱsituationsȱcontraryȱ toȱourȱconsciousȱ intentionsȱbecauseȱ thereȱ isȱanotherȱresistanceȱgoingȱonȱofȱwhichȱweȇreȱnotȱveryȱconscious.ȱ Soȱwheneverȱweȱintendȱtoȱdoȱsomethingȱweȱoftenȱunconsciouslyȱhaveȱaȱ

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resistanceȱ tryingȱ toȱ preventȱ usȱ fromȱ doingȱ it.ȱ Thatȇsȱ obviouslyȱ aȱ bigȱ wasteȱ ofȱ energy,ȱ andȱ itȱ isȱ veryȱ destructive.ȱ Itȱmeansȱweȱwillȱ produceȱ problemsȱwithoutȱendȱwhichȱhaveȱnoȱsolution.ȱ

Inȱ theȱ recentȱpastȱ theȱEastȱ andȱ theȱwestȱhaveȱgotȱ togetherȱ forȱvariousȱ reasons.ȱButȱforȱvariousȱotherȱreasons,ȱpeopleȱwereȱsendingȱaȱlotȱofȱarmsȱ intoȱtheȱMiddleȱEastȱoverȱtheȱyears.ȱItȱwasȱnotȱtheirȱintentionȱtoȱproduceȱ anȱimpossibleȱsituationȱwithȱIraq.ȱTheyȱsaid;ȱȇWell,ȱweȇreȱsendingȱarmsȱtoȱ theȱMiddleȱEast.ȱWeȱwantȱ toȱmakeȱmoney.ȱWeȱhaveȱaȱ certainȱnationalȱ policyȱtoȱmaintain.ȱThereȱareȱmanyȱreasons.ȇȱAndȱthenȱitȱallȱaddedȱupȱtoȱ aȱveryȱdangerousȱ situation.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱhadȱbeenȱnoȱarmsȱ toȱ sendȱ there,ȱ itȱ wouldȱnotȱhaveȱbeenȱsoȱserious.ȱAlso,ȱinȱ1973ȱitȱwasȱplainlyȱbroughtȱoutȱ thatȱ theȱWestȱ isȱveryȱdependentȱonȱoilȱ fromȱ theȱMiddleȱEast,ȱwhichȱ isȱ veryȱunstableȱregion.ȱForȱaȱwhileȱpeopleȱbeganȱtoȱuseȱtheirȱoilȱandȱtheirȱ energyȱ moreȱ efficiently.ȱ Graduallyȱ theyȱ becameȱ lessȱ concernedȱ withȱ doingȱso.ȱAndȱ thenȱ laterȱ theyȱsay;ȱ ȇLook!ȱSurprise.ȱWeȱnowȱdependȱonȱ them.ȱHalfȱofȱtheȱoilȱofȱtheȱworldȱisȱtheirs.ȱIfȱthatȱgoesȱweȇreȱallȱfinished.ȇȱ

Clearlyȱ itȱ isȱnotȱpeopleȇsȱ intentionȱ toȱproduceȱ theseȱ situations.ȱRather,ȱ theyȱmayȱsay,ȱ ȇweȱdonȇtȱwantȱ thisȱsituation,ȱbutȱ thereȱareȱaȱ lotȱofȱotherȱ thingsȱweȇveȱgotȱtoȱhaveȇ.ȱButȱthoseȱthingsȱwillȱproduceȱtheseȱsituations.ȱ Thereȇsȱanȱincoherenceȱthere.ȱ

Weȱ areȱ constantlyȱ producingȱ situationsȱ andȱ thingsȱ whichȱ weȱ donȇtȱ intendȱandȱthenȱweȱsayȱȇlook,ȱweȇveȱgotȱaȱproblemȇ.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱrealizeȱthatȱ itȱ isȱ ourȱ deeper,ȱ hiddenȱ intentionsȱ whichȱ haveȱ producedȱ it,ȱ andȱ

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consequentlyȱweȱkeepȱonȱperpetuatingȱtheȱproblem.ȱEvenȱnowȱveryȱlittleȱ isȱbeingȱdone,ȱasȱfarȱasȱIȱcanȱsee,ȱaboutȱusingȱenergyȱmoreȱefficientlyȱandȱ thusȱ becomingȱ lessȱ dependentȱ onȱMiddleȱ Easternȱ oilȱ Ȭȱ whichȱ wouldȱ removeȱmuchȱofȱtheȱwholeȱproblem.ȱȱ

Soȱweȱmustȱaskȱȇwhyȱdoȱweȱhaveȱthisȱincoherence?ȇȱNobodyȱwantsȱtheseȱ situations,ȱ andȱ yetȱ theȱ thingsȱ peopleȱ thinkȱ theyȱwantȱwillȱ inevitablyȱ produceȱ them.ȱ Itȱ isȱ thoughtȱ thatȱmakesȱ peopleȱ sayȱ ȇthatȇsȱ necessaryȇ.ȱ Therefore,ȱthoughtȱhasȱcomeȱtoȱthisȱkindȱofȱincoherence.ȱȱ

Now,ȱthatȱisȱreallyȱaȱkindȱofȱintroduction.ȱMaybeȱweȱshouldȱtalkȱaȱlittleȱ aboutȱitȱforȱaȱwhile.ȱ

Questioner:ȱ Iȇmȱ unclearȱ onȱ theȱ pointȱ aboutȱ theȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ thinkingȱ andȱ thought.ȱAreȱ youȱproposingȱ thatȱweȱ slideȱ fromȱ thinkingȱ intoȱthoughtȱwithoutȱbeingȱawareȱthatȱweȱareȱdoingȱit?ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Itȇsȱ automatic,ȱ becauseȱ whenȱ weȇveȱ beenȱ thinking,ȱ thatȱ thinkingȱ getsȱ recordedȱ inȱ theȱ brainȱ andȱ becomesȱ thought.ȱ Iȇllȱ discussȱ laterȱ howȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ anȱ activeȱ setȱ ofȱ movements,ȱ aȱ reflex.ȱ Butȱ supposeȱyouȱkeepȱ tellingȱveryȱyoungȱ childrenȱ thatȱpeopleȱofȱ aȱ certainȱ groupȱareȱnoȱgood,ȱnoȱgood,ȱnoȱgood.ȱThenȱlaterȱonȱitȱbecomesȱthoughtȱ whichȱ justȱspringsȱupȱ Ȭȱ ȇtheyȇreȱnoȱgoodȇ.ȱInȱfact,ȱyouȱhardlyȱnoticeȱthatȱ youȱareȱthinkingȱthatȱthereȱisȱanyȱthoughtȱeven.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Rightȱ now,ȱ inȱ conversationȱ withȱ thisȱ group,ȱ whileȱ youȇreȱ talkingȱ thereȇsȱaȱprocessȱofȱthinkingȱwhichȱis,ȱasȱyouȱexplained,ȱmoreȱaliveȱinȱtheȱ present.ȱAndȱ thenȱ thisȱotherȱ stuffȱ isȱhappening,ȱwhichȱ isȱ thought.ȱWeȱ donȇtȱseemȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱabilityȱtoȱdistinguishȱtheȱtwo.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ No,ȱ weȱ donȇtȱ seemȱ toȱ distinguishȱ theȱ two.ȱ Sometimesȱ weȱ doȱ though,ȱbecauseȱsometimesȱweȱsay,ȱȇIȱthoughtȱthatȱbeforeȇ.ȱButȱgenerallyȱ weȱmayȱmissȱtheȱdistinction.ȱAndȱwithȱfeelingȱitȇsȱevenȱharderȱtoȱseeȱthatȱ distinctionȱbetweenȱ theȱpastȱ feelingȱcomingȱupȱ Ȭȱ Iȱcallȱ itȱ theȱ ȇfeltȇȱ Ȭȱandȱ somethingȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱanȱactiveȱpresentȱfeeling.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱwonderȱhowȱmuchȱofȱtheȱfracturingȱisȱtaughtȱinȱtheȱNewtonianȱandȱ Christianȱmodels.ȱIsȱthisȱactuallyȱtheȱbrainȇsȱbehavior,ȱitsȱnormalȱnaturalȱ behavior?ȱIȱrememberȱinȱgradeȱschoolsȱbeingȱtaughtȱtoȱfracture,ȱclassifyȱ andȱ disorganize,ȱ toȱ takeȱ thingsȱ apart.ȱAndȱmyȱ interiorȱwasȱ violentlyȱ againstȱ itȱ becauseȱ Iȱ sawȱ thisȱ wholeȱ knottedȱ skeinȱ asȱ anȱ uneducatedȱ person.ȱSoȱIȇmȱwonderingȱwhetherȱtheȱbrainȱnaturallyȱwantsȱtoȱfractureȱ andȱanalyze,ȱorȱisȱitȱpartȱofȱtheȱwayȱweȱteachȱourselves?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱisȱtoȱsomeȱextentȱpartlyȱtheȱresultȱofȱtheȱwayȱweȱareȱtaught.ȱButȱ Iȱthinkȱthereȱisȱsomeȱtendencyȱinȱthoughtȱtoȱbuildȱthisȱupȱconstantly.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱyouȱthinkȱitȱisȱpartlyȱintrinsicȱinȱtheȱnatureȱofȱtheȱbrain?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱNotȱofȱtheȱbrain,ȱbutȱofȱtheȱwayȱthoughtȱhasȱdeveloped.ȱAȱcertainȱ amountȱofȱanalysisȱisȱnecessaryȱforȱclarityȱofȱthought;ȱsomeȱdistinctionsȱ haveȱ toȱbeȱmade.ȱButȱweȱcarryȱ themȱ tooȱ farȱwithoutȱknowing.ȱWeȱslipȱ over.ȱAndȱonceȱweȱcarryȱ themȱ tooȱ far,ȱ thenȱweȱstartȱassumingȱ theyȱareȱ justȱȇwhatȱisȇ,ȱandȱthatȱbecomesȱpartȱofȱourȱhabit.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱdoȱweȱrecognizeȱwhereȱtheȱedgeȱis,ȱbeforeȱslippingȱoverȱtooȱfar?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ aȱ veryȱ subtleȱ question,ȱ andȱ weȱ wantȱ toȱ goȱ intoȱ thatȱ carefullyȱduringȱ thisȱwholeȱ seminar.ȱToȱgetȱ freeȱofȱ thatȱ isȱmuchȱmoreȱ thanȱ justȱ recognizingȱ thatȱ difference.ȱ Somethingȱ muchȱ deeperȱ isȱ involved.ȱWhatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱdoȱfirstȱisȱtoȱgetȱsomeȱnotionȱofȱwhatȱsortȱofȱ troubleȱweȇreȱinȱnow.ȱ

Weȱstartedȱoutȱsayingȱtheȱtroubleȱisȱthatȱtheȱworldȱisȱinȱchaos,ȱbutȱIȱthinkȱ weȱendȱupȱbyȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱinȱchaos.ȱThatȇsȱeachȱoneȱofȱus.ȱAndȱ thatȱisȱtheȱcauseȱofȱtheȱworldȱbeingȱinȱchaos.ȱThenȱtheȱchaosȱofȱtheȱworldȱ comesȱbackȱandȱaddsȱtoȱtheȱchaosȱofȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱ thatȱ thoughtȱhasȱaȱkindȱofȱpossessiveȱqualityȱwhichȱ stays,ȱgetsȱstuck,ȱandȱthenȱbecomesȱhabitual?ȱAndȱweȱdonȇtȱseeȱthis?ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱIȱthinkȱthatȱwheneverȱweȱrepeatȱsomethingȱitȱgraduallyȱbecomesȱ aȱhabitȱandȱweȱgetȱlessȱandȱlessȱawareȱofȱit.ȱIfȱyouȱbrushȱyourȱteethȱeveryȱ

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morning,ȱyouȱprobablyȱhardlyȱnoticeȱhowȱyouȇreȱdoingȱit.ȱItȱjustȱgoesȱbyȱ itself.ȱOurȱthoughtȱdoesȱtheȱsameȱthing,ȱandȱsoȱdoȱourȱfeelings.ȱThatȇsȱaȱ keyȱpoint.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isnȇtȱ theȱ employmentȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ inȱ theȱ psychologicalȱ senseȱ synonymousȱwithȱcorruption?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhyȱdoȱyouȱsayȱthat?ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱthereȱnotȱonlyȱtwoȱstates:ȱcorruptionȱandȱinnocence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱbyȱitselfȱisȱincapableȱofȱinnocence?ȱȱ

Q:ȱInȱtheȱpsychologicalȱsenseȱitȱseemsȱso.ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱmayȱseemȱso.ȱButȱtheȱquestionȱisȱwhetherȱitȱisȱactuallyȱso.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱquestionȱweȇreȱtryingȱtoȱexplore.ȱWeȇllȱadmitȱtheȱfactȱthatȱitȱseemsȱso;ȱ itȱhasȱ thatȱappearance.ȱNowȱ theȱquestionȱ is:ȱwhatȱ isȱactuallyȱ theȱ case?ȱ Weȱ haveȱ toȱ exploreȱ this,ȱ andȱ itȱwillȱ takeȱ someȱdiggingȱ into.ȱWeȱ canȇtȱ simplyȱ takeȱ theȱwayȱ thingsȱ seemȱ andȱ justȱworkȱ onȱ that,ȱ becauseȱ thatȱ wouldȱ beȱ anotherȱ kindȱ ofȱmistakeȱ thoughtȱmakesȱ Ȭȱ takingȱ theȱ surfaceȱ andȱcallingȱitȱtheȱreality.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱwhatȱ youȱ saidȱ isȱ reallyȱ interesting.ȱ Iȱ seeȱ thatȱ ifȱ Iȱ haveȱ theȱ intentionȱtoȱgoȱsomewhereȱbutȱtakeȱtheȱwrongȱroad,ȱitȇsȱnoȱproblem.ȱTheȱ nextȱ timeȱ Iȱ findȱoutȱwhatȱ theȱrightȱroadȱ isȱchangeȱ theȱ information,ȱandȱ takeȱ aȱ differentȱ road.ȱ Butȱ Iȱ oftenȱ haveȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱ doȱ somethingȱ personallyȱcollectivelyȱandȱitȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱout.ȱYetȱIȱdonȇtȱknowȱwhatȇsȱ wrong.ȱ Iȱ canȇtȱ seemȱ toȱ changeȱ theȱ information.ȱWhatȱ Iȇmȱ especiallyȱ interestedȱinȱisȱhowȱthereȇsȱaȱsenseȱofȱȇmeȇȱseparateȱfromȱtheȱinformationȱ andȱ fromȱ theȱ intentionȱ feelȱasȱ thoughȱ Iȇmȱ theȱsubjectiveȱbeingȱwhoȱcanȱ changeȱit,ȱandȱyetȱIȱcanȇtȱseemȱto;ȱorȱtheȱworldȱcanȇtȱseemȱto.ȱThisȱsenseȱ ofȱ ȇmeȇȱ separateȱ fromȱ theȱ informationȱ Ȭȱ wouldȱ thatȱ beȱ somethingȱ interestingȱtoȱexplore?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ anotherȱ subtleȱ question,ȱ andȱ weȱ willȱ tryȱ toȱ getȱ intoȱ itȱ duringȱthisȱwholeȱperiod.ȱȱ

Weȱ haveȱ thatȱ feeling,ȱ asȱ youȱ say.ȱ Butȱweȱ shouldnȇtȱ necessarilyȱ acceptȱ whatȱseemsȱ toȱbe.ȱ Ifȱweȱacceptȱ ȇwhatȱseemsȱ toȱbeȇȱasȱ ȇwhatȱ isȇ,ȱ thenȱweȱ canȇtȱ inquire.ȱ Iȱmean,ȱ ifȱwhatȱseemsȱ toȱbeȱwereȱperfectlyȱcoherent,ȱ thenȱ Iȇdȱ sayȱ ȇallȱ right,ȱwhyȱ questionȱ it?ȇȱ Butȱ sinceȱ itȱ isȱ highlyȱ incoherent,ȱ Iȱ wouldȱsayȱthereȱisȱaȱgoodȱreasonȱtoȱquestionȱit.ȱThatȱwouldȱbeȱcommonȱ senseȱinȱordinaryȱareasȱofȱlife.ȱItȱdoesȱseemȱthatȱallȱthatȱisȱhappeningȱȬȱweȱ allȱwantȱ toȱdoȱ thingsȱ andȱweȱ canȇtȱ doȱwhatȱweȱwant.ȱ Somethingȱ elseȱ seemsȱtoȱhappenȱwhichȱstopsȱus.ȱȱ

Someȱofȱtheȱpeopleȱwhoȱareȱrunningȱcorporationsȱareȱgettingȱinterestedȱ inȱ thisȱ questionȱ becauseȱ theyȱ haveȱ theȱ sameȱ problem.ȱ Iȱ knowȱ someȱ

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peopleȱwhoȱ areȱworkingȱ inȱ thisȱ area,ȱ andȱ theyȱ findȱ thatȱwhenȱ theirȱ boardsȱgetȱtogetherȱtheyȱcanȇtȱseemȱtoȱagreeȱandȱtheyȱcanȇtȱgetȱtheȱresultsȱ theyȱintend.ȱThatȇsȱoneȱofȱtheȱreasonsȱtheyȱareȱsinkingȱaȱbit.ȱ

Aȱ fellowȱ namedȱ Peterȱ Sengeȱ hasȱ writtenȱ aȱ bookȱ calledȱ Theȱ Fifthȱ Discipline.ȱHeȱhasȱanalyzedȱsomeȱofȱtheseȱquestions.ȱIȱdonȇtȱsayȱthatȱheȇsȱ gotȱtoȱtheȱbottomȱofȱ it,ȱbutȱ itȇsȱ interesting.ȱHisȱanalysisȱshowsȱthatȱveryȱ oftenȱ thereȱareȱproblemsȱbecauseȱpeopleȱareȱnotȱ followingȱ theȱeffectȱofȱ theirȱthoughtsȱȬȱthatȱwhenȱtheyȱthinkȱsomethingȱandȱsomethingȱisȱdone,ȱ itȱthenȱspreadsȱoutȱtoȱotherȱcompanies,ȱandȱthenȱitȱcomesȱbackȱaȱbitȱlaterȱ asȱifȱitȱwereȱsomethingȱelseȱindependent.ȱTheyȱtreatȱitȱasȱanȱindependentȱ problemȱandȱ theyȱkeepȱon,ȱ therebyȱmakingȱ itȱworseȱbecauseȱ theyȱkeepȱ onȱdoingȱtheȱsameȱthing.ȱSoȱtheirȱwayȱofȱthinkingȱisȱcreatingȱaȱproblem.ȱ Itȱtakesȱsomeȱtimeȱforȱtheȱproblemȱtoȱgetȱbackȱtoȱthem;ȱandȱbyȱthatȱtimeȱ theyȇveȱ lostȱ trackȱofȱ itȱandȱ theyȱsayȱ ȇhereȇsȱaȱproblemȇ.ȱThenȱ theyȱ thinkȱ someȱ moreȱ andȱ produceȱ moreȱ ofȱ thatȱ problem,ȱ orȱ elseȱ changeȱ theȱ problemȱ aȱbitȱ intoȱ anotherȱoneȱ thatȇsȱworse,ȱorȱwhatever.ȱTheȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱ theyȱ areȱ notȱ followingȱ theȱ effectsȱ ofȱ theirȱ thought.ȱ Theyȱ areȱ notȱ awareȱofȱtheȱfactȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱactiveȱandȱparticipating.ȱȱ

Whenȱ youȱ areȱ thinkingȱ something,ȱ youȱ haveȱ theȱ feelingȱ thatȱ theȱ thoughtsȱdoȱnothingȱexceptȱinformȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱareȱandȱthenȱyouȱ chooseȱ toȱ doȱ somethingȱ andȱ youȱ doȱ it.ȱ Thatȇsȱwhatȱ peopleȱ generallyȱ assume.ȱ Butȱ actually,ȱ theȱ wayȱ youȱ thinkȱ determinesȱ theȱ wayȱ youȇreȱ goingȱ toȱdoȱ things.ȱThenȱyouȱdonȇtȱnoticeȱaȱ resultȱ comesȱback,ȱorȱyouȱ donȇtȱseeȱitȱasȱaȱresultȱofȱwhatȱyouȇveȱdone,ȱorȱevenȱlessȱdoȱyouȱseeȱitȱasȱaȱ resultȱofȱhowȱyouȱwereȱthinking.ȱIsȱthatȱclear?ȱ

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SoȱallȱtheseȱproblemsȱthatȱIȇveȱdescribedȱȬȱthatȱwholeȱdepressingȱseriesȱofȱ themȱ Ȭȱareȱ theȱ resultȱofȱ theȱwayȱweȇveȱbeenȱ thinking.ȱButȱpeopleȱdonȇtȱ seeȱthat.ȱTheyȱsay,ȱ ȇWeȇreȱ justȱthinking.ȱOutȱthereȱareȱtheȱproblems.ȱTheȱ thinkingȱisȱtellingȱusȱaboutȱthoseȱproblemsȱȬȱwhatȱtheyȱare.ȇȱ

Q:ȱ Supposeȱ Iȱ seeȱ aȱ situationȱ inȱwhichȱ itȱ seemsȱ soȱveryȱ obviousȱ thatȱ aȱ wholeȱgroupȱofȱpeopleȱ areȱ actingȱveryȱ incoherently.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ Iȱ seeȱveryȱ clearlyȱthatȱtheyȇreȱbeingȱincoherent,ȱandȱthenȱIȱstartȱtoȱactȱtoȱcorrectȱthat.ȱ ButȱifȱIȇmȱnotȱnoticingȱthatȱmyȱownȱthinkingȱmayȱbeȱincoherentȱthenȱmyȱ actionȱwonȇtȱbeȱcoherent.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱmayȱbeȱcaughtȱinȱtheȱsameȱthing.ȱAndȱevenȱifȱnot,ȱhowȱwillȱ youȱactuallyȱcorrectȱ it?ȱUnlessȱtheirȱthinkingȱchangesȱtheirȱactionȱwonȇtȱ beȱ corrected.ȱNow,ȱ nothingȱ youȱ doȱ canȱ changeȱ theirȱ thinking,ȱ exceptȱ communicationȱ toȱ themȱ thatȱ theyȇreȱ incoherentȱ Ȭȱcommunicationȱwhichȱ theyȱ willȱ acceptȱ andȱ understand.ȱ Otherwiseȱ youȱ areȱ tryingȱ toȱ meetȱ thoughtȱwithȱforce,ȱwhichȱisȱreallyȱaȱkindȱofȱviolence.ȱIfȱyouȱsayȱoutȱthereȱ areȱ someȱ peopleȱ behavingȱ incoherentlyȱ andȱ Iȱwillȱ tryȱ toȱmakeȱ themȱ behaveȱcoherently,ȱthenȱyouȇreȱusingȱforce.ȱButȱtheyȱkeepȱonȱthinkingȱtheȱ sameȱoldȱway.ȱIfȱyouȇreȱmoreȱpowerfulȱthanȱtheyȱare,ȱtheyȱwillȱdoȱwhatȱ youȱwantȱforȱaȱwhileȱȬȱuntilȱyouȱgetȱtoȱbeȱaȱlittleȱweak,ȱandȱthenȱtheyȇllȱ getȱbackȱatȱyou.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱexploreȱthis:ȱthoughtȱcomesȱinȱfromȱtheȱoutside,ȱcomesȱ intoȱourȱawareness,ȱtakesȱover,ȱtakesȱpossessionȱȬȱandȱmaybeȱcollectivelyȱ

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takesȱpossessionȱandȱweȱgoȱtoȱwar.ȱButȱweȱdonȇtȱseeȱthisȱbecauseȱthoughtȱ isȱpossessive,ȱlikeȱmagic.ȱItȱtakesȱover.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȱtakesȱover.ȱAndȱwhyȱdoesȱitȱtakeȱover?ȱThereȱareȱtwoȱlevelsȱ ofȱ thisȱ point.ȱ Oneȱ isȱ toȱ describeȱwhatȱ happensȱ asȱ farȱ asȱweȱ canȱ seeȱ outwardly.ȱTheȱsecondȱ isȱ toȱseeȱ theȱsourceȱofȱ it,ȱbecauseȱunlessȱweȱseeȱ theȱsourceȱitȱwillȱneverȱchange.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱcanȱweȱexploreȱtheȱsource?ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱthatȇsȱwhatȱthisȱweekendȱisȱabout.ȱButȱIȱthinkȱitȇsȱimportantȱ toȱ seeȱ whatȱ theȱ questionȱ is.ȱ Theȱ firstȱ thingȱ isȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ questionȱwhichȱneedsȱtoȱbeȱexplored.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱthoughtȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ alsoȱ aȱ subtleȱ question.ȱ Onȱ theȱ surfaceȱ itȱ appearsȱ thatȱ thoughtȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself,ȱifȱthoughtȱisȱjustȱmemory.ȱȱ

Letȇsȱ say,ȱ however,ȱ thatȱ weȱ needȱ someȱ kindȱ ofȱ awarenessȱ ofȱ whatȱ thoughtȱisȱdoingȱȬȱthatȱseemsȱclearȱȬȱbutȱwhichȱweȱdonȇtȱhave,ȱgenerallyȱ speaking.ȱ Iȇveȱ usedȱ theȱwordȱ ȇproprioceptionȇȱ inȱ previousȱ seminarsȱ toȱ meanȱȇselfȬperceptionȱofȱthoughtȇ,ȱandȱweȇllȱcomeȱtoȱthatȱasȱweȱgoȱalong.ȱ

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Itȱmayȱbeȱthatȱthoughtȱcanȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself.ȱButȱitȱwouldȱtakeȱusȱratherȱ longerȱ thanȱweȱhaveȱ toȱgetȱ intoȱ thatȱ thisȱ evening,ȱ soȱ forȱ theȱpresentȱ Iȱ thinkȱweȱshouldȱlookȱatȱtheȱthingȱinȱsortȱofȱaȱgeneralȱway.ȱȱ

Itȱdoesnȇtȱlookȱentirelyȱimpossibleȱthatȱweȱcouldȱapproachȱthisȱquestionȱ somehow,ȱ butȱ itȱ isȱ aȱ veryȱdifficultȱ question.ȱ Iȱwouldȱ suggestȱ thatȱ oneȱ reasonȱwhyȱitȱisȱdifficultȱisȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱfaultȱinȱtheȱprocessȱofȱthought.ȱȱ

Whatȱ Iȱmeanȱbyȱ ȇthoughtȇȱ isȱ theȱwholeȱ thingȱ Ȭȱ itȇsȱallȱoneȱprocess.ȱ Itȱ isȱ essentialȱ forȱmeȱnotȱ toȱbreakȱ thatȱup,ȱbecauseȱ itȇsȱallȱoneȱprocess.ȱ Itȱ isȱ essentialȱ forȱ meȱ notȱ toȱ breakȱ thatȱ up,ȱ becauseȱ itȇsȱ allȱ oneȱ process;ȱ somebodyȱ elseȇsȱ thoughtsȱ becomeȱ myȱ thoughts,ȱ andȱ viceȱ versa.ȱ Thereforeȱ itȱwouldȱ beȱwrongȱ andȱmisleadingȱ toȱ breakȱ itȱ upȱ intoȱmyȱ thought,ȱ yourȱ thought,ȱmyȱ feelings,ȱ theseȱ feelings,ȱ thoseȱ feelings.ȱ Forȱ someȱ purposesȱ thatȇsȱ allȱ right,ȱ butȱ notȱ forȱ theȱ purposeȱweȇreȱ talkingȱ aboutȱnow.ȱȱ

Iȱwouldȱsayȱthatȱthoughtȱmakesȱwhatȱisȱoftenȱcalledȱinȱmodernȱlanguageȱ aȱsystem.ȱAȱsystemȱmeansȱaȱsetȱofȱconnectedȱthingsȱorȱparts.ȱButȱtheȱwayȱ peopleȱ commonlyȱ useȱ theȱwordȱ nowadaysȱ itȱmeansȱ somethingȱ allȱ ofȱ thoseȱ partsȱ areȱ mutuallyȱ interdependentȱ Ȭȱ notȱ onlyȱ forȱ theirȱ mutualȱ action,ȱbutȱforȱtheirȱmeaningȱandȱforȱtheirȱexistence.ȱȱ

Aȱ corporationȱ isȱ organizedȱ asȱ aȱ systemȱ Ȭȱ itȱ hasȱ thisȱ department,ȱ thatȱ department,ȱ thatȱdepartment.ȱTheyȱdonȇtȱhaveȱanyȱmeaningȱseparately;ȱ

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theyȱonlyȱcanȱfunctionȱtogether.ȱAndȱalsoȱtheȱbodyȱisȱaȱsystem.ȱSocietyȱisȱ aȱsystemȱinȱsomeȱsense.ȱAndȱsoȱon.ȱ

Similarly,ȱ thoughtȱ isȱaȱsystem.ȱThatȱsystemȱnotȱonlyȱ includesȱ thoughts,ȱ ȇfeltsȇȱandȱ feelings,ȱbutȱ itȱ includesȱ theȱ stateȱofȱ theȱbody;ȱ itȱ includesȱ theȱ wholeȱofȱsocietyȱȬȱasȱthoughtȱisȱpassingȱbackȱandȱforthȱbetweenȱpeopleȱinȱ aȱprocessȱbyȱwhichȱthoughtȱevolvedȱfromȱancientȱtimes.ȱȱ

Aȱ systemȱ isȱ constantlyȱ engagedȱ inȱ aȱ processȱ ofȱ development,ȱ change,ȱ evolutionȱandȱstructureȱchanges,ȱandȱsoȱforth,ȱalthoughȱthereȱareȱcertainȱ featuresȱ ofȱ theȱ systemȱwhichȱ becomeȱ relativelyȱ fixed.ȱWeȱ callȱ thisȱ theȱ structure.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱinȱanȱorganizationȱthereȇsȱaȱcertainȱstructure.ȱ Thenȱ sometimesȱ thatȱ structureȱ beginsȱ toȱ breakȱ upȱ becauseȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ work,ȱandȱpeopleȱmayȱhaveȱtoȱchangeȱit.ȱȱ

Weȱ haveȱ someȱ structureȱ inȱ thoughtȱ asȱ wellȱ Ȭȱ someȱ relativelyȱ fixedȱ features.ȱThoughtȱhasȱbeenȱconstantlyȱevolvingȱandȱweȱcanȇtȱsayȱwhenȱ thatȱstructureȱbegan.ȱButȱwithȱtheȱgrowthȱofȱcivilizationȱitȱhasȱdevelopedȱ aȱgreatȱdeal.ȱItȱwasȱprobablyȱveryȱsimpleȱthoughtȱbeforeȱcivilization,ȱandȱ nowȱ itȱ hasȱ becomeȱ veryȱ complexȱ andȱ ramifiedȱ andȱ hasȱ muchȱ moreȱ incoherenceȱthanȱbefore.ȱSoȱweȱhaveȱthisȱsystemȱofȱthought.ȱNow,ȱIȱsayȱ thatȱ thisȱsystemȱhasȱaȱ faultȱ inȱ itȱ Ȭȱaȱsystemicȱ fault.ȱ Itȇsȱnotȱaȱ faultȱhere,ȱ thereȱorȱthere,ȱbutȱitȱisȱaȱfaultȱthatȱisȱallȱthroughoutȱtheȱsystem.ȱCanȱyouȱ pictureȱthat?ȱItȇsȱeverywhereȱandȱnowhere.ȱYouȱmayȱsayȱȇIȱseeȱaȱproblemȱ here,ȱ soȱ Iȱ willȱ bringȱ myȱ thoughtȱ toȱ bearȱ onȱ thisȱ problemȇ.ȱ Butȱ ȇmyȇȱ

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thoughtȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱItȱhasȱtheȱsameȱfaultȱasȱtheȱfaultȱIȇmȱtryingȱ toȱlookȱat,ȱorȱaȱsimilarȱfault.ȱ

Weȱhaveȱthisȱsystemicȱfault;ȱandȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱ isȱwhatȱhasȱbeenȱ goingȱonȱ inȱallȱtheseȱproblemsȱofȱtheȱworldȱ Ȭȱsuchȱasȱtheȱproblemsȱthatȱ theȱ fragmentationȱ ofȱ nationsȱ hasȱ produced.ȱWeȱ say:ȱ ȇHereȱ isȱ aȱ fault.ȱ Somethingȱhasȱgoneȱwrong.ȇȱButȱinȱdealingȱwithȱit,ȱweȱuseȱtheȱsameȱkindȱ ofȱ fragmentaryȱ thoughtȱ thatȱ producedȱ theȱ problem,ȱ justȱ aȱ somewhatȱ differentȱversionȱofȱ it;ȱ thereforeȱ itȇsȱnotȱgoingȱtoȱhelp,ȱandȱ itȱmayȱmakeȱ thingsȱworse.ȱYouȱmayȱ sayȱ thatȱyouȱ seeȱallȱ theseȱ thingsȱgoingȱonȱandȱ thenȱaskȱ ȇwhatȱ shallȱ Iȱdo?ȇȱYouȱ tryȱ toȱ thinkȱaboutȱ it,ȱbutȱbyȱnowȱyourȱ thoughtȱisȱpervadedȱbyȱthisȱsystemicȱfault.ȱThenȱwhatȱdoesȱthatȱcallȱfor?ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱitȱthatȱtheȱwholeȱsystemȱhasȱbeenȱpolluted?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱoneȱwayȱofȱ lookingȱatȱ it,ȱyes.ȱSomethingȱhasȱhappenedȱ inȱ theȱentireȱsystemȱwhichȱmakesȱtheȱthoughtȱwrongȱȬȱtheȱwholeȱprocessȱinȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱnotȱ straight.ȱThereȱmayȱbeȱbitsȱwhichȱareȱallȱ right,ȱbutȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱstay.ȱItȇsȱsomewhatȱlikeȱtheȱwayȱtheyȱusedȱtoȱtalkȱofȱanȱeggȱwhichȱ wasȱrottenȱonlyȱinȱparts.ȱThereȱmightȱbeȱsomeȱpartsȱwhichȱhavenȇtȱgoneȱ rotten,ȱbutȱtheȱrotȱwillȱspread.ȱ

Weȱcanȱgetȱsomeȱrelativelyȱclearȱthoughtȱ inȱscience.ȱButȱevenȱthereȱ itȱ isȱ notȱentirelyȱclearȱbecauseȱscientistsȱareȱworriedȱaboutȱtheirȱprestigeȱandȱ status,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Sometimesȱ theyȱwonȇtȱ considerȱ ideasȱ thatȱ donȇtȱ goȱ alongȱwithȱtheirȱtheoriesȱorȱwithȱtheirȱprejudices.ȱNevertheless,ȱscienceȱisȱ aimedȱatȱseeingȱtheȱfact,ȱwhetherȱtheȱscientistȱlikesȱwhatȱheȱseesȱorȱnotȱȬȱ

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lookingȱatȱtheoriesȱobjectively,ȱcalmly,ȱandȱwithoutȱbias.ȱToȱsomeȱextent,ȱ relativelyȱ coherentȱ thoughtȱhasȱbeenȱachievedȱbetterȱ inȱ scienceȱ thanȱ inȱ someȱ otherȱ areasȱ ofȱ life.ȱ Someȱ resultsȱ flowedȱ outȱ ofȱ scienceȱ andȱ technologyȱwhichȱareȱquiteȱimpressiveȱȬȱaȱgreatȱpowerȱwasȱreleased.ȱ

Butȱnowȱweȱdiscoverȱ thatȱwheneverȱ theȱ timeȱ comesȱ toȱuseȱ scienceȱweȱ justȱ forgetȱ theȱ scientificȱ method.ȱ Weȱ justȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱ useȱ ofȱ whatȱ scientistsȱ haveȱ discoveredȱ willȱ beȱ determinedȱ byȱ theȱ needsȱ ofȱ ourȱ country,ȱorȱbyȱmyȱneedȱ toȱmakeȱmoney,ȱorȱbyȱmyȱneedȱ toȱdefeatȱ thatȱ religionȱorȱmerelyȱbyȱmyȱneedȱ toȱshowȱwhatȱaȱgreatȱpowerfulȱpersonȱ Iȱ am.ȱ Soȱ weȱ seeȱ thatȱ relativelyȱ unpollutedȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ beenȱ usedȱ toȱ developȱ certainȱ things,ȱ andȱ thenȱweȱ alwaysȱ trustȱ toȱ theȱmostȱpollutedȱ thoughtȱtoȱdecideȱwhatȱtoȱdoȱwithȱthem.ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱtheȱincoherence.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱweȱareȱinȱthisȱpollutionȱandȱweȱcanȇtȱseeȱourȱtrueȱ intentions?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱdonȇtȱseeȱthatȱourȱintentionsȱareȱincoherentȱȬȱthatȱperhapsȱtheyȱ areȱarisingȱoutȱofȱtheȱpollution.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱthinkȱasȱ individualsȱweȱstriveȱtoȱresolveȱtheseȱthingsȱ inȱourselvesȱ Ȭȱ whatȱareȱourȱintentionsȱasȱindividuals?ȱWhatȱcausesȱusȱtoȱactȱtheȱwayȱweȱ do?ȱAndȱ atȱ theȱ sameȱ timeȱ Iȱ seeȱ thatȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ globalȱ problemsȱ youȱ describedȱ areȱ aȱ differentȱ kindȱ ofȱ problemȱ whichȱ individualsȱ havenȇtȱ faced.ȱForȱexample,ȱindividualsȱwantȱtoȱsurviveȱandȱwantȱtoȱreproduce.ȱ

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Thatȇsȱnoȱlongerȱpossibleȱinȱtheȱsenseȱthatȱitȱwasȱinȱtheȱpast,ȱbecauseȱaȱlotȱ ofȱourȱproblemsȱareȱdueȱtoȱhavingȱtooȱmanyȱpeople.ȱWeȇreȱsupposedȱtoȱ beȱworkingȱ onȱ thisȱ asȱ Individualsȱ andȱ somehowȱ collectivelyȱ realizingȱ thatȱweȱ canȇtȱdoȱ theȱ sameȱbasicȱ thingsȱ individualsȱusedȱ toȱneedȱ toȱdo,ȱ realizingȱthatȱsomethingȱhasȱtoȱbeȱchanged.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱthatȇsȱquiteȱtrue,ȱbutȱweȱcanȇtȱseemȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱPeopleȱtryingȱtoȱ getȱ togetherȱ toȱdealȱwithȱ theseȱ thingsȱdonȇtȱseemȱ toȱbeȱableȱ toȱgetȱveryȱ far.ȱTakeȱtheȱecologicalȱpollutionȱorȱtheȱchangeȱofȱclimate.ȱVeryȱlittleȱhasȱ beenȱdoneȱtoȱdealȱwithȱthoseȱproblems.ȱAȱ lotȱofȱgoodȱwordsȱhaveȱbeenȱ producedȱbyȱvariousȱgovernments,ȱbutȱwhenȱitȱcomesȱtoȱputtingȱaȱlotȱofȱ moneyȱbehindȱtheirȱwordsȱtheyȱhavenȇtȱgoneȱveryȱtar.ȱThoseȱveryȱgoodȱ intentionsȱ areȱ counteractedȱ byȱ anotherȱ setȱ ofȱ intentions,ȱ orȱ aȱ wholeȱ bunchȱofȱsetsȱofȱ intentionsȱ Ȭȱsuchȱasȱweȱcanȇtȱ interfereȱwithȱ this,ȱorȱweȱ canȇtȱinterfereȱwithȱthatȱorȱweȇveȱgotȱtoȱallowȱthisȱandȱthatȱandȱtheȱother.ȱ Andȱthenȱitȱallȱaddsȱupȱtoȱveryȱlittle.ȱ

Soȱ itȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ incoherence.ȱ Theȱ intentionsȱ whichȱ weȱ professȱ areȱ blockedȱbyȱanotherȱsetȱthatȱweȱnotȱonlyȱdonȇtȱprofessȱbutȱmayȱnotȱknowȱ fullyȱthatȱweȱhave.ȱWeȱmayȱnotȱwantȱtoȱknow.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱseemsȱweȱhaveȱtoȱbecomeȱawareȱofȱcertainȱassumptions,ȱwhichȱweȱ arenȇtȱ evenȱawareȱweȱhave.ȱWeȱneedȱ toȱquestionȱwhatȱassumptionsȱ inȱ theȱsystemȱweȱareȱ takingȱ forȱgrantedȱandȱhowȱweȱoperateȱallȱ theȱ time,ȱ becauseȱthereȇsȱsomethingȱweȇreȱnotȱnoticingȱwhichȱisȱlimitingȱourȱabilityȱ toȱmakeȱourȱintentionsȱhappen,ȱbothȱindividuallyȱandȱcollectively.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱweȇreȱnotȱ reallyȱawareȱofȱwhatȱ isȱhappeningȱ inȱ thisȱ systemȱwhichȱ Iȇveȱ calledȱ ȇthoughtȇ.ȱWeȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ howȱ itȱworks.ȱWeȱ hardlyȱknowȱitȱisȱaȱsystem;ȱitȇsȱnotȱpartȱofȱourȱcultureȱevenȱtoȱadmitȱthatȱ itȱisȱaȱsingleȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱyouȱexplainȱtheȱsystemȱagain?ȱYouȱsaidȱthoughtȱhasȱaȱsystemicȱ flaw,ȱ butȱ youȇreȱ alsoȱ includingȱ theȱ emotions.ȱ Whatȱ elseȱ areȱ youȱ including?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱstateȱofȱtheȱbody,ȱtheȱemotions,ȱandȱalsoȱtheȱwholeȱsocietyȱȬȱ theȱculture,ȱtheȱwayȱweȱpassȱinformationȱbetweenȱus,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱ youȱ sayȱ ȇtheȱ stateȱ ofȱ theȱ bodyȇ,ȱ areȱ youȱ alsoȱ includingȱ theȱ organsȱofȱtheȱbody?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱtheȱorgansȱareȱaffectedȱbyȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱtheȱwholeȱthingȱisȱaȱclosedȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo,ȱIȱwouldnȇtȱsayȱ it’sȱentirelyȱclosed.ȱAȱsystemȱ isnȇtȱnecessarilyȱ closed.ȱItȱcanȱbeȱopenȱtoȱvariousȱinfluencesȱofȱthingsȱcomingȱinȱandȱout.ȱ Thatȇsȱtheȱwholeȱideaȱofȱaȱsystem.ȱItȇsȱnotȱnecessarilyȱclosed,ȱbutȱitȱhasȱaȱ certainȱ stabilityȱ ofȱ structure.ȱ Itȱ tendsȱ toȱ sustainȱ andȱ maintainȱ itsȱ

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structure,ȱsoȱthatȱwhenȱsomethingȱfromȱtheȱoutsideȱcomesȱinȱitȱreactsȱinȱ suchȱaȱwayȱasȱtoȱavoidȱbasicȱchange.ȱ

Q:ȱ Butȱ Iȇmȱ hopingȱ youȇreȱ goingȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ possibilityȱ ofȱ openingȱupȱtheȱstructure,ȱorȱseeingȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThereȱis,ȱyes.ȱIȇmȱnotȱsayingȱtheȱsystemȱisȱeverythingȱthereȱis.ȱIȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ systemȱpervadesȱourȱwholeȱactivity.ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱ somethingȱ pervadingȱourȱactivity;ȱbutȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱthatȱitȇsȱallȱthereȱis.ȱDoȱyouȱ getȱtheȱdistinction?ȱTheȱsystemȱhasȱbecomeȱsoȱpervasive,ȱhowever,ȱthatȱitȱ mayȱbeȱalmostȱallȱthatȱweȱareȱableȱtoȱseeȱmuchȱofȱtheȱtime.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱyouȱsayȱwhatȱisȱnotȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱ couldȱ sayȱ forȱoneȱ thing,ȱ thatȱperhapsȱ thereȱ isȱ someȱkindȱofȱ perceptionȱ orȱ intelligenceȱ whichȱ isȱ deeper,ȱ whichȱ isȱ ableȱ toȱ seeȱ thisȱ incoherence.ȱ Theȱ systemȱ itselfȱ couldȱ notȱ seeȱ itsȱ incoherenceȱ veryȱ far,ȱ becauseȱitȱwouldȱdistortȱit.ȱButȱIȇmȱsuggestingȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱcapacityȱtoȱ seeȱtheȱincoherence.ȱ

Asȱweȇveȱsaid,ȱtoȱaȱcertainȱextentȱtheȱsystemȱ isȱnecessary.ȱWeȱneedȱthisȱ systemȱofȱthoughtȱforȱallȱsortsȱofȱpurposes.ȱButȱitȱhasȱdevelopedȱaȱfault.ȱ Nowȱ thereȱ is,ȱ Iȱsay,ȱanȱ intelligenceȱorȱaȱperceptionȱwhichȱgoesȱbeyondȱ memory.ȱThereȇsȱaȱlotȱbeyondȱthisȱsystem.ȱTheȱsystemȱisȱactuallyȱonlyȱaȱ

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veryȱtinyȱpartȱofȱreality;ȱbutȱitȱloomsȱveryȱlarge.ȱUnlessȱyouȱactuallyȱseeȱ theȱ thingȱ Iȇmȱ talkingȱ about,ȱwhatȱ Iȱ sayȱwillȱ beȱ incorporatedȱ intoȱ theȱ systemȱasȱanȱimage.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱwhatȱtheȱproblemȱis?ȱThisȱsystemȱtendsȱtoȱ incorporateȱeverything.ȱAnythingȱrepeatedȱseveralȱtimesȱbecomesȱpartȱofȱ theȱ system.ȱ Alsoȱ somebodyȱmayȱ haveȱ anȱ insightȱ andȱ thenȱ thatȱmayȱ easilyȱbecomeȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱyouȱexcludeȱintuitionȱfromȱtheȱsystem?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱdependsȱonȱwhatȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱȇintuitionȇ.ȱIȱthinkȱtheȱsystemȱisȱ ableȱ toȱ imitateȱ aȱkindȱ ofȱ intuition.ȱ Itȱmayȱgiveȱ aȱmemoryȱ ofȱ intuition,ȱ whichȱfeelsȱaȱbitȱlikeȱintuition.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱintuitionȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem,ȱwouldȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNotȱifȱitȱwereȱtrulyȱso.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱthereȱisȱȇperceptionȇȱorȱ ȇinsightȇȱ orȱ ȇintelligenceȇȱwhichȱmayȱnotȱbeȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱThereȱareȱvariousȱ thingsȱ youȱ canȱ callȱ it,ȱ whichȱ weȇllȱ tryȱ toȱ bringȱ outȱ asȱ weȱ goȱ along.ȱ Whateverȱweȱcallȱ it,ȱ letȇsȱsayȱ forȱnowȱ thatȱ Iȱdonȇtȱ thinkȱ itȱ isȱpartȱofȱ theȱ system.ȱThatȱwayȱweȱareȱkeepingȱourȱpossibilitiesȱopen,ȱandȱweȱmayȱseeȱ someȱevidenceȱthatȱtheȱsystemȱisȱnotȱeverything.ȱ

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Q:ȱArenȇtȱthereȱtimesȱanȱactionȱtakesȱplaceȱasȱaȱresultȱofȱwhatȱyouȱmightȱ callȱ nonȬselfȬservingȱ thoughtȱ Ȭȱ notȱ tryingȱ toȱ imposeȱ itȱ onȱ someoneȱ Ȭȱ whereȱthereȇsȱaȱstrongȱelementȱofȱcompassionȱandȱloveȱinȱthatȱparticularȱ thought?ȱThenȱ theȱ fragmentationȱofȱ thoughtȱ isȱnotȱ reallyȱnecessarilyȱ aȱ partȱofȱthatȱactivity.ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱthereȱwereȱsuchȱcompassionȱandȱloveȱthenȱIȱwouldȱsayȱitȇsȱnotȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ system,ȱ clearly.ȱ But,ȱ ofȱ course,ȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱwhatȱ isȱ feltȱ toȱ beȱ compassionȱandȱ loveȱ isȱactuallyȱpartȱofȱ theȱsystem,ȱbecauseȱonceȱagainȱ suchȱexperiences,ȱwhenȱrepeated,ȱbecomeȱaȱhabit.ȱThoughtȱcanȱproduceȱ experiencesȱwithoutȱourȱbeingȱawareȱthatȱtheyȱareȱproducedȱbyȱthought.ȱ Itȱisȱthisȱdeceptiveȱfeatureȱofȱthoughtȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱwatchȱoutȱfor.ȱTheȱ worstȱ confusionȱ takesȱplaceȱ inȱ theȱ questionȱ ofȱwhatȱ isȱnotȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱ system,ȱbecauseȱifȱyouȱconfuseȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystemȱasȱnotȱbeingȱpartȱofȱtheȱ systemȱthenȱyouȇreȱlost.ȱSoȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱveryȱcarefulȱaboutȱthat.ȱItȇsȱnoȱ useȱ justȱ sayingȱ thatȱ loveȱwillȱ takeȱcareȱofȱeverything.ȱPeopleȱhaveȱ saidȱ thatȱ forȱages,ȱbutȱ itȱhasnȇtȱdoneȱ it.ȱTheȱChristianȱreligionȱwasȱbasedȱonȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱGodȱ isȱ love.ȱTheyȱsaidȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱoneȱGodȱwhoȱ isȱpureȱ love,ȱandȱChrist,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱNevertheless,ȱtheȱChristiansȱfoughtȱnotȱonlyȱ otherȱreligionsȱbutȱtheyȱalsoȱfoughtȱeachȱotherȱviolently.ȱTheyȱcarriedȱoutȱ veryȱviolentȱreligiousȱwarsȱlastingȱcenturiesȱandȱdidȱterribleȱthings.ȱNowȱ Iȇmȱ sureȱ theseȱ peopleȱ didnȇtȱ intendȱ toȱ getȱ intoȱ that;ȱ theyȱ hadȱ anotherȱ intention.ȱButȱbecauseȱofȱtheȱwayȱtheyȱwereȱthinkingȱaboutȱtheirȱreligionȱ theyȱ couldnȇtȱ helpȱ it.ȱ Theologicalȱ ideas,ȱ forȱ example,ȱ tookȱ overȱ fromȱ ideasȱofȱ love.ȱOrȱ thereȱwasȱ aȱquestionȱofȱ theȱ religionȱbeingȱ connectedȱ withȱ theȱ monarchyȱ orȱ power,ȱ orȱ whatever.ȱ Soȱ violenceȱ doesnȇtȱ stopȱ merelyȱbyȱsaying,ȱȇweȇllȱactȱbasedȱonȱloveȇ,ȱbecauseȱthatȱcanȱbecomeȱjustȱ anȱideaȱthatȱgetsȱabsorbedȱintoȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

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Q:ȱIfȱallȱIȇveȱeverȱknownȱinȱmyȱwholeȱlifeȱliesȱwithinȱtheȱsystem,ȱthenȱanyȱ notionȱ ofȱ thereȱ beingȱ anythingȱ outsideȱ ofȱ thatȱ isȱ onlyȱ aȱ notionȱ ofȱ theȱ system.ȱAndȱIȱcanȇtȱhaveȱanyȱideaȱwhatȱthatȱwouldȱmean.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱdonȇtȱknowȱwhatȱitȱmeans,ȱbutȱweȱhaveȱtoȱentertainȱtheȱidea.ȱIȱ thinkȱweȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱcarefulȱnotȱtoȱpaintȱourselvesȱintoȱaȱcomerȱhereȱȬȱtoȱ sayȱthatȱeverythingȱisȱinȱtheȱsystemȱandȱthereȱisȱnoȱwayȱoutȱofȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱIȇmȱjustȱsayingȱIȱmightȱgetȱtheȱnotionȱthatȱIȱcouldȱvisualizeȱsomethingȱ whichȱwasȱoutside.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȱwouldȱ stillȱ beȱ inside.ȱ Thatȱ becomesȱ theȱmostȱ dangerousȱ sourceȱofȱconfusion,ȱbecauseȱthenȱyouȱsayȱȇthatȇsȱoutside,ȱitȇsȱallȱrightȇ.ȱInȱ suchȱaȱwayȱthoughtȱproducesȱsomeȬthingȱwhichȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱoutside,ȱandȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ noticeȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ doingȱ so.ȱ Thatȇsȱ oneȱ ofȱ theȱ basicȱmistakes.ȱ Thoughtȱ producesȱ somethingȱ andȱ says,ȱ ȇIȱ didnȇtȱ produceȱ it.ȱ It’sȱ reallyȱ there.ȇȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱ sayingȱ thatȱusingȱ thoughtȱ toȱ establishȱboundariesȱ leadsȱ toȱ fragmentation;ȱratherȱweȱshouldȱseeȱ theȱdifferenceȱbetweenȱwhatȱ isȱ theȱ systemȱandȱwhatȱisȱnotȱtheȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱweȱcouldȱseeȱit.ȱButȱtheȱquestionȱisȱhowȱweȱareȱgoingȱtoȱseeȱit.ȱ

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Q:ȱThereȱhaveȱbeenȱaȱ lotȱofȱ timesȱwhenȱpeopleȱhaveȱhadȱ insightsȱ intoȱ particularȱ systems,ȱ orȱ becomeȱ awareȱ ofȱ somethingȱ andȱmadeȱ aȱmajorȱ change.ȱThereȱwasȱaȱtimeȱbeforeȱscienceȱbecameȱestablishedȱwhenȱpeopleȱ believedȱ inȱmagic,ȱandȱ thenȱ cameȱ science.ȱThereȱareȱaȱ lotȱofȱ casesȱ likeȱ that,ȱ whereȱ peopleȱ didȱ haveȱ aȱ radicalȱ changeȱ inȱ aȱ limitedȱ sphere.ȱ Iȱ wonderȱifȱlookingȱatȱhowȱtheyȱdidȱitȱinȱaȱparticularȱareaȱwouldȱbeȱusefulȱ orȱrelevantȱtoȱgettingȱtoȱtheȱrootȱofȱthisȱwholeȱsystem.ȱ

Bohm:ȱDoȱyouȱhaveȱsomethingȱinȱmind?ȱ

Q:ȱWellȱforȱoneȱthing,ȱhowȱdidȱhumanȱbeingsȱmanageȱtoȱgoȱfromȱneverȱ havingȱscienceȱtoȱhavingȱscience?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ anȱ interestingȱ point.ȱ Howȱ wasȱ itȱ possibleȱ forȱ scientificȱ knowledgeȱtoȱdevelopȱwhichȱwasȱquiteȱcontraryȱtoȱtheȱpreviousȱculture?ȱ ThatȱrequiredȱwhatȱIȱlikeȱtoȱcallȱinsight.ȱIȱcanȱgiveȱyouȱseveralȱexamples.ȱ FromȱtheȱtimeȱofȱtheȱancientȱGreeksȱupȱthroughȱtheȱMiddleȱAgesȱpeopleȱ believedȱ thatȱ theȱearthȱwasȱatȱ theȱcentreȱofȱ theȱuniverseȱandȱ thatȱ thereȱ wereȱsevenȱcrystalȱspheresȱofȱincreasingȱperfection.ȱTheȱseventhȱoneȱwasȱ theȱperfectȱone.ȱTheȱbasicȱideaȱwasȱanȱorderȱofȱincreasingȱperfection,ȱandȱ

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theȱideaȱthatȱeachȱthingȱisȱstrivingȱtoȱreachȱitsȱrightȱplace.ȱItȱwasȱaȱhighlyȱ organicȱviewȱofȱ theȱuniverse.ȱAccordingly,ȱ theyȱ said:ȱ ȇCelestialȱbodies,ȱ beingȱperfect,ȱshouldȱmoveȱinȱperfectȱfigures.ȱTheȱonlyȱperfectȱfigureȱisȱaȱ circle;ȱthereforeȱthoseȱbodiesȱoughtȱtoȱbeȱmovingȱ inȱcircles.ȇȱThenȱwhenȱ theyȱ foundȱ thatȱ theȱ planetsȱ didnȇtȱ doȱ soȱ theyȱ triedȱ toȱ saveȱ theȱ appearances,ȱsaying:ȱȇwell,ȱitȇsȱnotȱactuallyȱaȱcircle,ȱbutȱweȱcanȱmakeȱitȱupȱ outȱ ofȱ circlesȱ onȱ topȱ ofȱ circlesȱ Ȭȱ circlesȱ calledȱ epicycles.ȇȱThatȱ is,ȱwhenȱ theyȱfoundȱthatȱtheȱbeliefȱwasnȇtȱworkingȱtooȱwellȱtheyȱtendedȱtoȱmoveȱ toȱ saveȱ itȱ ratherȱ thanȱ toȱ questionȱ itȱ seriously.ȱ Graduallyȱ evidenceȱ accumulated,ȱ especiallyȱ afterȱ theȱ endȱ ofȱ theȱMiddleȬAges,ȱ thatȱ thereȱ wasnȇtȱ aȱ greatȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ heavenlyȱ andȱ earthlyȱ matter.ȱ Theȱ moon,ȱ forȱ instance,ȱhadȱ aȱ lotȱofȱ irregularȱ featuresȱonȱ it;ȱ itȱwasnȇtȱveryȱ perfect.ȱNotȱonlyȱtheȱearth,ȱbutȱalsoȱotherȱplanetsȱhadȱsatellites.ȱAndȱsoȱ on.ȱ Thereȱ wasnȇtȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ evidenceȱ thatȱ heavenlyȱmatterȱ andȱ earthlyȱ matterȱwereȱallȱ thatȱdifferent.ȱButȱ stillȱ theȱ ideaȱpersistedȱ thatȱheavenlyȱ matterȱwasȱ basicallyȱdifferent.ȱ ȇItȇsȱheavenly,ȱ itȇsȱperfect,ȱ itȱ belongsȱupȱ there.ȱItȱstaysȱupȱthereȱwhereȱitȱbelongs.ȇȱAndȱforȱaȱtime,ȱeverybodyȱwasȱ satisfied.ȱ

Thereȱwasȱenoughȱevidenceȱbyȱ theȱ timeȱofȱNewton,ȱorȱ evenȱbefore,ȱ toȱ questionȱthatȱseriously,ȱandȱsomeȱpeopleȱmayȱhaveȱdoneȱso.ȱButȱthereȱisȱ sortȱofȱanȱunconsciousȱ levelȱwhereȱ itȱstillȱworks,ȱsaying:ȱ ȇWhyȱdoesȱtheȱ moonȱstayȱupȱinȱtheȱsky?ȱItȇsȱonlyȱnatural.ȱItȇsȱcelestialȱmatter,ȱitȱstaysȱupȱ whereȱ itȱbelongs.ȇȱNobodyȱworriesȱaboutȱwhyȱ itȱ isnȇtȱ falling.ȱNow,ȱ thatȱ explanationȱmayȱhaveȱmadeȱsenseȱinȱancientȱtimes,ȱandȱthereȱwasȱanȱoldȱ habitȱ inȱ theȱmindȱnotȱ toȱquestionȱ itȱ Ȭȱ justȱ toȱ takeȱ itȱ forȱgranted.ȱByȱ theȱ timeȱofȱNewton,ȱhowever,ȱthereȱwasȱenoughȱevidenceȱtoȱquestionȱit.ȱ

Theȱ storyȱ is,ȱwhetherȱ itȇsȱ trueȱ orȱ notȱ Iȱ donȇtȱ know,ȱ thatȱNewtonȱwasȱ watchingȱanȱappleȱfallȱandȱhadȱanȱinsight.ȱTheȱquestionȱmayȱhaveȱbeenȱ

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inȱ hisȱmind,ȱ ȇwhyȱ isnȇtȱ theȱmoonȱ falling?ȇȱ Andȱ heȱ suddenlyȱ hadȱ theȱ answer:ȱ ȇTheȱmoonȱ isȱ falling.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱ forceȱ ofȱ universalȱ gravitation.ȱ Everyȱ tilingȱ isȱ fallingȱ towardsȱeverything.ȇȱAndȱ thenȱheȱhadȱ toȱexplainȱ whyȱ theȱmoonȱdoesnȇtȱreachȱ theȱground,ȱwhichȱheȱwasȱableȱ toȱdoȱ laterȱ byȱsomeȱcalculationȱshowingȱthatȱitȱwasȱalsoȱgoingȱoutward.ȱBecauseȱ itȱ wasȱfarȱawayȱitȱwasȱmovingȱawayȱfromȱtheȱearthȱinȱaȱfastȱorbitȱthatȱkeptȱ itȱoffȱtheȱgroundȱwhileȱitȱwasȱstillȱfalling.ȱ

Soȱheȱmustȱhaveȱhadȱanȱ insightȱatȱ thatȱmoment,ȱwhichȱbrokeȱ thatȱoldȱ mouldȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Previously,ȱ nobodyȱ botheredȱwithȱ theȱ questionȱ ofȱ whyȱ theȱ moonȱ wasnȇtȱ falling,ȱ becauseȱ itȱ seemedȱ soȱ naturalȱ thatȱ theȱ celestialȱmatterȱ stayedȱwhereȱ itȱbelonged.ȱTheȱkeyȱpointȱofȱ theȱ insightȱ wasȱ toȱ breakȱ theȱ oldȱmoldȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Fromȱ thereȱ onȱ itȱwasȱnotȱ veryȱ difficultȱtoȱgoȱtoȱtheȱnewȱthought,ȱbecauseȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱifȱtheȱmoonȱ isȱ fallingȱ thenȱ thereȱ isȱuniversalȱgravitationȱ Ȭȱeverythingȱ isȱ falling.ȱAndȱ youȱcouldȱthenȱgoȱonȱfromȱthere.ȱ

Thereȱwereȱotherȱcasesȱofȱ thatȱkind,ȱandȱ togetherȱ theyȱ ledȱ toȱourȱmoreȱ modernȱview.ȱButȱnowȱthisȱmoreȱmodernȱviewȱisȱjustȱasȱrigidlyȱfixedȱasȱ theȱ ancientȱ viewȱwas,ȱ andȱ itȱwouldȱ takeȱ somethingȱ toȱ breakȱ thatȱ too.ȱ Peopleȱ nowȱ tendȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ theȱ absoluteȱ truth,ȱ final,ȱ noȱmoreȱ reallyȱbasicȱquestionsȱneedȱ toȱbeȱaskedȱ thatȱmightȱperhapsȱ throwȱsomeȱ doubtȱonȱtheȱwholeȱframeworkȱunderlyingȱmodernȱscienceȱȬasȱhappenedȱ withȱ theȱolderȱGreekȱandȱMediaevalȱ frameworksȱseveralȱcenturiesȱago.ȱ Ofȱ courseȱ Newtonȇsȱ insightȱ onlyȱ brokeȱ theȱ patternȱ inȱ someȱ limitedȱ domain.ȱ Itȱ didnȇtȱ breakȱ theȱ patternȱ inȱ thisȱ vastȱ areaȱ thatȱweȇveȱ beenȱ talkingȱ about.ȱ Inȱ otherȱ words,ȱ allȱ theseȱ insightsȱ inȱ scienceȱ wereȱ ultimatelyȱassimilatedȱwithinȱtheȱgeneralȱsystemȱofȱthought.ȱ

WhatȱIȇmȱsuggestingȱisȱthatȱthereȱisȱquiteȱgeneralȱinsightȱthatȱisȱpossibleȱ whichȱcanȱbreakȱanȱoldȱmodeȱofȱthought.ȱWeȇllȱcomeȱbackȱtoȱthisȱagain.ȱ

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Weȱhaveȱ toȱ reallyȱ lookȱatȱ it.ȱWeȱhaveȱ toȱ thinkȱaboutȱanȱareaȱ first,ȱandȱ thenȱseeȱwhatȱweȱcanȱsee.ȱThatȱopensȱtheȱwayȱtoȱsomethingȱelse.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱyouȱsayȱweȱhaveȱtoȱthinkȱaboutȱ it,ȱ isnȇtȱthatȱtheȱsystemȱdoingȱ theȱthinking?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱmayȱbeȱorȱmayȱnotȱbe.ȱIȱthinkȱweȱshouldnȇtȱprejudgeȱtheȱissue.ȱ Iȇmȱsayingȱitȱmayȱbeȱpossibleȱinȱaȱflashȱforȱsomeȱrealȱthinkingȱsuddenlyȱ toȱtakeȱplace.ȱItȱmustȱhappenȱoccasionally,ȱorȱelseȱwhereȱwouldȱweȱbe?ȱ Weȱwouldȱneverȱhaveȱgotȱanywhereȱatȱall.ȱIfȱweȱalwaysȱusedȱtheȱkindȱofȱ thoughtȱweȱuseȱinȱnationalismȱtoȱdealȱwithȱpracticalȱproblemsȱweȱwouldȱ haveȱbeenȱdeadȱlongȱagoȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱ itȱbeȱcorrectȱ toȱsayȱ thatȱNewtonȇsȱ insightȱwasȱseeingȱ thatȱ theȱ naturalȱstateȱofȱeverythingȱisȱnotȱmotionless?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱButȱevenȱbeforeȱtheȱinsightȱintoȱgravitationȱthereȱwasȱalreadyȱ anotherȱ insight,ȱwhichȱwasȱ thatȱ theȱ naturalȱ stateȱ ofȱ thingsȱ isȱ toȱ beȱ inȱ motion,ȱtoȱwhichȱGalileoȱalsoȱcontributed.ȱIȱdidnȇtȱgiveȱtheȱfullȱstoryȱofȱit.ȱ Iȱfocusedȱonȱoneȱpointȱofȱgravitation.ȱ

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Q:ȱWhatȱyouȱwereȱsayingȱisȱveryȱinterestingȱinȱthatȱNewtonȱwasȱableȱtoȱ poseȱaȱquestionȱwhichȱheȱwasnȇtȱsupposedȱtoȱask.ȱAndȱthenȱtheȱpatternȱ ofȱthinkingȱwasȱbroken.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ thatȱcanȱhappenȱwhenȱpeopleȱareȱgenerallyȱaskingȱwrongȱ questionsȱandȱthenȱsomebodyȱcomesȱalongȱandȱasksȱaȱrightȱquestion.ȱAȱ wrongȱquestionȱisȱoneȱwhichȱalreadyȱassumesȱtheȱveryȱthingȱthatȱoughtȱ toȱ beȱ questioned.ȱ Itȇsȱ calledȱ ȇbeggingȱ theȱ questionȇ.ȱ Beforeȱ Newton,ȱ peopleȱ inȱphysicsȱwereȱgenerallyȱaskingȱwrongȱquestionsȱbecauseȱ theyȱ wereȱnotȱawareȱofȱtheȱimportanceȱofȱtheȱquestionȱofȱwhyȱtheȱmoonȱisnȇtȱ falling.ȱTheyȱmightȱhaveȱ asked:ȱ ȇWhyȱ isȱ theȱmoonȱgoingȱ fromȱhereȱ toȱ there?ȱWhyȱisȱthisȱplanetȱgoingȱinȱthisȱparticularȱsetȱofȱepicycles?ȇ,ȱandȱsoȱ on.ȱThoseȱwouldȱhaveȱbeenȱwrongȱquestionsȱbecauseȱ theyȱwouldȱhaveȱ tacitlyȱassumedȱthatȱplanetsȱmoveȱinȱtheȱsphereȱinȱwhichȱtheyȱbelong.ȱToȱ doȱ thisȱwas,ȱofȱ course,ȱnotȱ relevantȱ toȱ theȱ actualȱ situation.ȱ Soȱbecauseȱ theyȱdidnȇtȱquestionȱthatȱwholeȱstructure,ȱtheyȱmayȱhaveȱbeenȱledȱtoȱaskȱ aȱ lotȱofȱotherȱquestionsȱwhichȱhadȱnoȱgreatȱmeaningȱandȱ thusȱgetȱ intoȱ deeperȱconfusion.ȱYourȱquestionsȱcontainȱhiddenȱassumptions;ȱthatȇsȱtheȱ point.ȱ Therefore,ȱwhenȱ youȱ questionȱ theȱ questionȱ itself,ȱ youȱmayȱ beȱ questioningȱaȱdeeperȱassumption.ȱButȱthatȇsȱdoneȱnonȬverbally.ȱDoȱyouȱ seeȱwhatȱ Iȱmean?ȱToȱquestionȱ theȱquestionȱeventuallyȱhasȱ toȱbeȱaȱnonȬ verbalȱact,ȱwhichȱyouȱcanȇtȱdescribe.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱthatȱmayȱbreakȱallȱtheȱpatterns?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱsomehowȱ itȱbreaksȱ theȱpattern.ȱNow,ȱ theȱsuggestionȱ isȱ thatȱ thisȱpatternȱofȱ theȱsystemȱ isȱnotȱsomethingȱwithȱwhichȱweȱareȱstuck.ȱ Itȱ mayȱnotȱbeȱabsolutelyȱinevitable;ȱthereȱareȱsignsȱthatȱitȱcouldȱbreak.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱdoȱyouȱmeanȱwhenȱyouȱsayȱthatȱquestioningȱtheȱquestionȱhasȱtoȱ beȱnonȬverbal?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ Iȱ sayȱ Iȱhaveȱ aȱquestionȱwhichȱmayȱ containȱ assumptionsȱ thatȱ shouldȱbeȱquestioned,ȱ Iȱcouldȱquestionȱ themȱverbally.ȱButȱwhatȱwouldȱ leadȱmeȱtoȱquestionȱmyȱquestion?ȱEventuallyȱIȱcanȱputȱitȱintoȱwords;ȱbutȱ Iȇmȱsayingȱtheȱfirstȱstep,ȱtheȱfirstȱflashȱofȱinsight,ȱisȱnonȬverbal.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱperceptionsȱinȱtheȱabsenceȱofȱthought,ȱandȱthenȱthoughtȱbecomesȱ aȱproductȱofȱthat?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱthoughtȱisȱaffectedȱbyȱtheȱperceptions.ȱItȱtakesȱaȱnewȱturnȱbyȱ thoseȱperceptions.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱinsightȱisnȇtȱthoughtȱthenȱwhatȱisȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱreallyȱhaveȱ toȱgoȱ intoȱ thatȱcarefully.ȱHowȱwouldȱweȱanswerȱ that?ȱThoughtȱcannotȱadequatelyȱanswerȱit.ȱButȱthenȱonȱtheȱotherȱhand,ȱ thoughtȱcouldȱstillȱsayȱsomethingȱaboutȱ itȱwhichȱmightȱhelpȱusȱ towardȱ

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theȱ question.ȱWeȇreȱ notȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ thoughtȱ isȱ alwaysȱ theȱ culpritȱ orȱ alwaysȱbad.ȱItȱcanȱalsoȱinȱmanyȱcasesȱbeȱright,ȱnotȱonlyȱtechnicallyȱbutȱinȱ otherȱareas.ȱHowever,ȱIȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱkindȱofȱthoughtȱthatȱwouldȱcomeȱ inȱaȱthingȱlikeȱthisȱisȱaȱsuddenȱfeelingȱofȱwaitingȱupȱaȱbit.ȱ

Q:ȱOnȱ theȱ inside,ȱ isȱ thereȱanȱunlimitedȱpoolȱofȱ insightȱwithȱwhichȱanyȱ oneȱofȱusȱcouldȱbeȱinȱtouch?ȱ

Bohm:ȱAgain,ȱhowȱwouldȱ Iȱanswerȱ that?ȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ ȇlookȱatȱ theȱ questionȇ.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ aȱmatterȱ ofȱ learningȱ toȱ questionȱ theȱ question.ȱDoȱyouȱhaveȱanȱassumptionȱthatȱIȱcouldȱtellȱyouȱȇyesȇȱorȱȇnoȇ?ȱIfȱ Iȱcanȇtȱtellȱyou,ȱmenȱwhatȱareȱweȱgoingȱtoȱdo?ȱȱ

Q:ȱLookȱatȱtheȱquestion.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱDonȇtȱanswerȱitȱrightȱaway.ȱNewtonȱtookȱaȱlongȱtimeȱbeforeȱ heȱevenȱgotȱtoȱtheȱquestion,ȱandȱheȱwasȱquiteȱbright.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱaȱperceptionȱtakeȱplaceȱthatȱhelpsȱusȱtoȱseeȱhowȱimpatientȱweȱare;ȱ howȱthoughtȱlikesȱtoȱhaveȱanswersȱandȱexplanationsȱtooȱfast?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱcanȱlookȱatȱthat,ȱtoo.ȱWhyȱdoȱweȱwantȱtheȱanswerȱrightȱaway?ȱ

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Q:ȱToȱgetȱonȱwithȱanotherȱquestion.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Isȱ thatȱright?ȱThatȱmeansȱweȇreȱnotȱ interestedȱ inȱ theȱquestion.ȱ Ifȱ ourȱrealȱinterestȱisȱtoȱgetȱonȱwithȱanotherȱquestion,ȱthenȱweȇreȱnotȱgoingȱ toȱdoȱthisȱoneȱveryȱwell.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱthatȇsȱwhatȱweȱdo.ȱ

Q:ȱMaybeȱ it’sȱ likeȱ aȱ computer,ȱwhichȱwantsȱ toȱ haveȱ informationȱ andȱ conclusionsȱ rightȱ away.ȱ Maybeȱ itȇsȱ theȱ natureȱ ofȱ theȱ machineryȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ thatȱmayȱ be.ȱButȱ thenȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ askȱ ȇwhyȱdoȱweȱ allowȱ ourselvesȱtoȱbeȱsubjugatedȱbyȱthisȱmachinery?ȇȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱitȱbeȱthatȱgettingȱanȱanswerȱquicklyȱmakesȱusȱfeelȱorientedȱandȱ givesȱtheȱsensationȱofȱsecurity?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱyouȱ couldȱhaveȱ saidȱ theȱ sameȱ aboutȱNewtonȱ Ȭthatȱheȱmayȱ haveȱwantedȱtheȱanswerȱrightȱaway.ȱTheȱquestionȱaboutȱtheȱmoonȱmayȱ haveȱbeenȱdisturbing.ȱEvenȱinȱscienceȱtoȱraiseȱfundamentalȱquestionsȱcanȱ beȱveryȱdisturbing.ȱSomebodyȱcouldȱfeel,ȱ ȇIȇdȱlikeȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱanswerȱtoȱ thisȱrightȱaway,ȱandȱgetȱoutȱofȱthisȱunpleasantȱstateȱofȱdisturbanceȇ,ȱandȱ heȱwouldȱneverȱgetȱanywhere.ȱ

Q:ȱGenerallyȱitȇsȱuncomfortableȱnotȱtoȱknowȱsomething.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Butȱ then,ȱ Newtonȱ mustȱ haveȱ beenȱ inȱ someȱ stateȱ ofȱ notȱ knowing.ȱAndȱIȱdonȇtȱsayȱonlyȱNewton;ȱotherȱscientistsȱmustȱhaveȱbeenȱ forȱaȱperiodȱinȱsomeȱstateȱofȱnotȱknowing,ȱorȱsomeȱstateȱofȱconfusionȱorȱ incoherenceȱ orȱ possiblyȱ someȱ otherȱ unpleasantȱ feelings.ȱ Butȱ Iȱ thinkȱ Newtonȱworkedȱonȱitȱforȱquiteȱaȱwhile.ȱHeȱmustȱhaveȱgoneȱthroughȱlongȱ periodsȱwhichȱneednȇtȱhaveȱbeenȱalwaysȱpleasant.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱtoȱsomeȱextentȱweȱhaveȱtoȱsustainȱtheȱincoherence,ȱnotȱtoȱgetȱridȱ ofȱitȱimmediately?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ itȇsȱ aȱ mistakeȱ toȱ thinkȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ gotȱ ridȱ ofȱ theȱ incoherenceȱbeforeȱyouȱhaveȱ inȱ factȱdoneȱso.ȱOtherwiseȱ theȱsystemȱcanȱ createȱ theȱ appearanceȱ orȱ theȱ seemingȱ ofȱ gettingȱ ridȱ ofȱ it.ȱ Theȱ systemȱ seemsȱtoȱwantȱtoȱreliveȱtheȱpressureȱwithoutȱactuallyȱgettingȱtoȱtheȱrootȱ ofȱtheȱthing.ȱ

Thatȇsȱagainȱtheȱsameȱproblem,ȱtheȱsameȱflaw,ȱinȱanotherȱwayȱȬȱtheȱsameȱ faultȱ thatȱweȇveȱ beenȱ talkingȱ about.ȱ Itȇsȱ pervasiveȱ inȱ theȱ system.ȱ Theȱ systemȱdoesnȇtȱstayȱwithȱtheȱdifficultȱproblemȱthatȱproducesȱunpleasantȱ feelings.ȱItȇsȱconditionedȱsomehowȱtoȱmoveȱasȱfastȱasȱitȱcanȱtowardȱmoreȱ pleasantȱ feelings,ȱwithoutȱ actuallyȱ facingȱ theȱ thingȱ thatȇsȱmakingȱ theȱ unpleasantȱfeeling.ȱ

Q:ȱ Theȱ thingȱ aboutȱ unpleasantȱ feelingsȱ andȱ confusionȱ mightȱ beȱ somethingȱthatȱweȱlearn.ȱIȇveȱseenȱaȱchildȱattemptingȱtoȱdoȱsomeȱsortȱofȱ puzzle,ȱ whoȱ triesȱ withoutȱ anyȱ senseȱ ofȱ confusionȱ orȱ pain,ȱ justȱ withȱ interestȱ Ȭȱattemptingȱagainȱandȱagainȱandȱagainȱuntilȱmaybeȱ finallyȱheȱ succeeds.ȱSoȱdoesȱ learningȱcomeȱoutȱofȱaȱwillingnessȱ toȱ faceȱsomethingȱ thatȱ doesȱ notȱ haveȱ anȱ immediateȱ answerȱ butȱ isȱ justȱ sortȱ ofȱ heldȱ inȱ abeyance?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱwellȱbe,ȱbutȱweȱhaveȱtoȱconsiderȱtheȱstateȱofȱtheȱsystemȱ whichȱhasȱevolvedȱwithȱourȱcivilizationsȱoverȱthousandsȱandȱthousandsȱ ofȱyears:ȱweȱhaveȱaȱlotȱofȱbadȱexperiencesȱoneȱwayȱorȱanotherȱconnectedȱ withȱ notȱ havingȱ theȱ answers,ȱ andȱ consequentlyȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ reactionȱ immediatelyȱȬȱweȱwantȱtheȱanswerȱrightȱaway.ȱItȇsȱtheȱmemoryȱofȱallȱtheȱ unpleasantȱexperiencesȱofȱnotȱhavingȱtheȱanswer.ȱThoseȱȇfeltsȇȱbobȱup.ȱ

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Q:ȱChildrenȱareȱpushedȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱsolution.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheyȇreȱrewardedȱ ifȱtheyȱhaveȱtheȱrightȱsolutionȱandȱtheyȱfaceȱaȱ certainȱamountȱofȱunpleasantnessȱ ifȱ theyȱdonȇtȱhaveȱ it.ȱTheȱeducationalȱ systemȱ doesȱ that,ȱ theȱwholeȱ economicȱ systemȱ doesȱ that,ȱ asȱ doesȱ theȱ politicalȱsystem.ȱEverythingȱhasȱgrownȱupȱtoȱdoȱthat.ȱByȱnowȱthatȱisȱpartȱ ofȱ thisȱsystemȱofȱ thoughtȱweȇveȱbeenȱdiscussing.ȱTherefore,ȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ sayȱ ȇhereȱweȱareȱinȱtheȱsystem,ȱandȱwhatȱareȱweȱgoingȱtoȱdoȱwithȱit?ȇȱIfȱ weȱhaveȱunpleasantness,ȱweȱmightȱsay;ȱ ȇWeȱshouldnȇtȱhaveȱ it.ȱItȱwouldȱ beȱ goodȱ notȱ toȱ haveȱ it.ȇȱ Butȱ justȱ sayingȱ thisȱ doesnȇtȱ changeȱ anything.ȱ Ratherȱweȱneedȱ toȱsay;ȱ ȇWhatȱareȱweȱgoingȱ toȱdoȱwithȱ it?ȱWhatȱwillȱbeȱ ourȱresponse?ȇȱ

Q:ȱCanȱweȱgetȱsensitivityȱtoȱthatȱhere?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇllȱseeȱifȱweȱcan.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ thatȱ itȇsȱnotȱ justȱanȱ intellectualȱ thing.ȱEvenȱ listeningȱ toȱourȱ voicesȱhere,ȱthereȇsȱaȱtoneȱinȱtheȱwayȱweȱtalkȱtoȱeachȱotherȱwhichȱimpliesȱ thatȱwhatȱweȱareȱsayingȱisȱliterallyȱso,ȱratherȱthanȱideasȱorȱabstractions.ȱ Andȱtheȱchildȱpicksȱthatȱupȱandȱitȱbecomesȱ‘Iȱknow.ȱIȱknow.ȇȱ

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Bohm:ȱSoȱcanȱweȱfaceȱitȱhere?ȱIsȱthereȱanyȱunpleasantnessȱinȱthisȱgroupȱ withȱ regardȱ toȱ facingȱ theȱuncertainty,ȱorȱ theȱunknown?ȱYouȇllȱperhapsȱ noticeȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱtremendousȱmovementȱaway.ȱTheȱsystemȱisȱsetȱupȱ toȱ moveȱ awayȱ fromȱ awarenessȱ ofȱ that.ȱ Now,ȱ byȱ inferenceȱ Ȭȱ byȱ justȱ thinkingȱaboutȱitȱclearlyȱ—ȱweȱranȱseeȱthatȱitȱmakesȱnoȱsenseȱtoȱkeepȱonȱ doingȱ thatȱ andȱ theȱ resultȱ mustȱ beȱ realȱ disaster.ȱ Weȱ couldȱ sayȱ ȇmyȱ intentionȱ isȱnotȱ toȱdoȱ itȇ.ȱButȱyouȱwillȱ stillȱ findȱyourselfȱdoingȱ it.ȱYouȱ haveȱaȱresistanceȱcomingȱfromȱsomethingȱelseȱȬȱfromȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱpartȱofȱ theȱ faultȱ inȱ theȱsystemȱbeȱ thatȱweȱdoȱnotȱunderstandȱ whatȱisȱtheȱroleȱofȱincoherenceȱinȱlearningȱandȱinȱtheȱsystem?ȱWeȱeitherȱ tryȱtoȱgetȱoutȱofȱitȱimmediatelyȱorȱelseȱweȱstayȱinȱitȱindefinitely.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱ seemȱ toȱ findȱ theȱgoldenȱmeansȱofȱ theȱmiddleȱway,ȱ lettingȱ incoherenceȱ unfoldȱitselfȱsufficientlyȱforȱusȱtoȱunderstandȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱon.ȱ

Bohm:ȱSometimesȱweȱdo.ȱIȱthinkȱweȱunderstandȱperfectlyȱwellȱhowȱthatȱ worksȱbecauseȱeverybodyȱdoesȱitȱinȱareasȱwhichȱareȱnotȱtooȱimportantȱtoȱ him.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱweȱneedȱsensitivityȱtoȱseeȱwhatȱitȱmeansȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱnotȱ sensitive.ȱTheȱ systemȱ interferesȱwithȱ sensitivity.ȱItȱdestroysȱitȱ

Q:ȱIȱdonȇtȱunderstandȱwhyȱweȱdoȱnotȱseeȱtheȱincoherence.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Doȱ weȱ seeȱ itȱ orȱ donȇtȱ weȱ seeȱ it?ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ bitȱ puzzlingȱ isnȇtȱ it?ȱ Sometimesȱ itȱ seemsȱweȱ seeȱ it.ȱ Inȱ anȱ elementaryȱ technicalȱ senseȱwhenȱ somebodyȱseesȱincoherenceȱandȱitȇsȱnotȱworryingȱhimȱorȱfrighteningȱhimȱ heȱmayȱactuallyȱ learnȱ fromȱ it,ȱasȱwasȱ said.ȱPeopleȱdoȱuseȱ incoherence.ȱ Theyȱ beginȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ itȱ ifȱ theyȇreȱ notȱ tooȱworriedȱ aboutȱ it.ȱButȱwhenȱ peopleȱfindȱthatȱifsȱsomethingȱimportantȱtoȱthemȱthenȱtheyȱcanȇtȱseemȱtoȱ doȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱitȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱreȬeducateȱourȱsystemȱȬȱthatȱwhenȱweȇreȱinȱaȱstateȱ ofȱconfusionȱorȱanxietyȱofȱnotȱhavingȱanȱanswer,ȱweȱhaveȱtoȱunderstandȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱ beȱ anotherȱ possibility?ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ asȱ thoughȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ actuallyȱarticulateȱthatȱpossibilityȱforȱtheȱsystem,ȱbeforeȱevenȱattemptingȱ toȱexperienceȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱHowȱwouldȱyouȱdoȱthat?ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱhaveȱbeenȱeducatedȱtoȱhaveȱanȱanswer.ȱAllȱmyȱlife,ȱasȱsoonȱasȱtheȱ teacherȱasksȱaȱquestion,ȱifȱIȱhaveȱtheȱanswerȱIȇmȱaȱgoodȱkid.ȱAndȱthenȱIȱ hearȱforȱtheȱfirstȱtimeȱthatȱifȱIȱdoȱnotȱhaveȱtheȱanswerȱIȇmȱaȱgoodȱkid.ȱSoȱ

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theȱsystemȱisȱbroadeningȱtoȱincludeȱsomethingȱnewȱwhichȱIȱneverȱevenȱ conceivedȱwouldȱbeȱaȱpossibility:ȱitȇsȱOKȱtoȱbeȱconfused,ȱitȱmightȱevenȱbeȱ interesting.ȱIfȱIȇmȱanxiousȱitȇsȱusuallyȱhardȱforȱmeȱnotȱtoȱwantȱtoȱfindȱanȱ answer,ȱbutȱhearingȱthatȱanxietyȱisȱOKȱmayȱinȱitselfȱreduceȱtheȱanxiety.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱhelpȱinȱsomeȱcases.ȱButȱwhenȱyouȇreȱreallyȱanxiousȱȬȱsayȱ ifȱyouȱhaveȱsomeȱsituationȱinvolvingȱrealȱdangerȱtoȱyouȱorȱyourȱinterestȱȬȱ Iȱdonȇtȱ thinkȱ itȱwouldȱalwaysȱwork.ȱNowadaysȱpeopleȱmayȱbeȱanxiousȱ aboutȱlosingȱtheirȱjobs,ȱforȱexample,ȱandȱtheyȱcouldȱbecomeȱveryȱanxiousȱ aboutȱthat.ȱItȱmightȱhelpȱrelaxȱtheȱmindȱaȱbitȱtoȱthinkȱȇwell,ȱbeingȱanxiousȱ isȱallȱrightȇ.ȱButȱIȇmȱnotȱsureȱthatȱmanyȱcouldȱsustainȱthisȱforȱaȱlongȱtimeȱ ifȱitȱprovedȱtoȱbeȱnecessary.ȱ

Iȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱmakeȱthisȱpoint;ȱitȇsȱnotȱmerelyȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱheardȱthatȱ thisȱisȱallȱright,ȱbutȱyouȱmustȱhaveȱseenȱthatȱitȇsȱallȱright.ȱItȱwouldȱbeȱstillȱ partȱofȱtheȱsystemȱifȱyouȱmerelyȱtookȱmyȱwordȱthatȱitȱisȱallȱright;ȱunless,ȱ havingȱactuallyȱheardȱit,ȱyouȱsawȱthatȱitȱmadeȱsense.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱweȱneedȱtoȱhaveȱaȱdisplay?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱseeȱthatȱitȱmakesȱsenseȱȬȱthatȱallowingȱanxietyȱtoȱbeȱ thereȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱcoherentȱwayȱtoȱfunctionȱorȱoperate.ȱIfȱyouȇreȱanxiousȱ youȱneedȱtoȱsay:ȱȇIȇmȱanxious.ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱtheȱwholeȱsituation.ȇȱButȱthenȱ youȱhaveȱ toȱnoticeȱ thatȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱ conditionedȱ toȱmoveȱ awayȱ fromȱ that.ȱAndȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱthatȱasȱwell.ȱ

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Therefore,ȱbyȱsayingȱallȱthisȱweȱhaveȱbegunȱtoȱmove.ȱByȱseeingȱitȱȬȱseeingȱ thatȱitȱmakesȱsenseȱandȱisȱcoherentȱȬȱthenȱaȱcertainȱmovementȱhasȱbegun,ȱ looseningȱupȱtheȱsystem.ȱSoȱitȱshowsȱthatȱthisȱsystemȱisȱnotȱaȱmonolithicȱ rockȱwall;ȱ itȇsȱ inȱ factȱnotȱveryȱ solidȱ atȱ all,ȱ althoughȱ itȱ looksȱ extremelyȱ solid.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȇreȱaskingȱwhetherȱweȱcanȱlearnȱtoȱbecomeȱmoreȱlearningȬorientedȱ individuallyȱandȱcollectively,ȱratherȱthanȱȇIȱknowȇȱoriented.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱ it.ȱAndȱanotherȱpartȱ isȱ lookingȱ intoȱ impulsesȱandȱ feelingsȱandȱanxietiesȱwhichȱpushȱusȱawayȱfromȱthat.ȱInsteadȱofȱsayingȱ ȇItȇsȱterrible,ȱIȇmȱanxious;ȱIȱmustȱquicklyȱfindȱsomeȱthoughtȱtoȱrelieveȱtheȱ anxietyȇ,ȱIȱnowȱsayȱ ȇAnxietyȱisȱperfectlyȱnormalȱandȱisȱtoȱbeȱexpectedȱinȱ thisȱsituationȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱItȇsȱanȱopportunityȱtoȱlearn.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱItȇsȱanȱopportunityȱtoȱlearn,ȱyes.ȱAndȱthisȱisȱaȱreversalȱofȱmostȱofȱ ourȱculture.ȱ

Now,ȱdonȇtȱ justȱacceptȱthis.ȱIfȱyouȱseeȱthisȱmakesȱsenseȱandȱisȱcoherent,ȱ thatȱ doesnȇtȱ proveȱ itȱ isȱ rightȱ butȱ atȱ leastȱ itȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ aȱ goodȱ approach.ȱ

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Q:ȱWhatȱyouȱshunnedȱbeforeȱsuddenlyȱbecomesȱvaluable,ȱatȱ leastȱasȱanȱ opportunity.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱKrishnamurtiȱusedȱtoȱuseȱwordsȱlikeȱthat,ȱsayingȱthatȱenvyȱorȱ sorrowȱ wasȱ aȱ jewel.ȱ Thenȱ peopleȱ wouldȱ ask,ȱ ȇHowȱ canȱ heȱ sayȱ suchȱ things?ȱ Theyȇreȱ terribleȱ things.ȇȱ Butȱ theȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱ ifȱ youȱ lookȱ atȱ itȱ differentlyȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱisȱjustȱwhatȱyouȇveȱgotȱtoȱlearnȱȬȱwhatȱisȱ actuallyȱgoingȱon,ȱwhatȱitȱmeans.ȱAndȱtheȱveryȱfactȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱallȱthisȱ goingȱon,ȱwhichȱyouȱdonȇtȱreallyȱwant,ȱisȱaȱsignȱthatȱthereȱisȱincoherence.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱweȱattractȱtoȱourselvesȱwhateverȱweȱneedȱtoȱlearn?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ ratherȱ weȱ acknowledgeȱ thatȱ thingsȱ whichȱ weȱ thinkȱ weȱ oughtȱ toȱgetȱ ridȱofȱareȱactuallyȱ theȱclueȱ toȱwhatȱweȱneedȱ toȱ learn.ȱOurȱ wholeȱcultureȱandȱourȱwholeȱ instinctȱhaveȱ toldȱusȱ thatȱ theseȱareȱ thingsȱ weȱ haveȱ toȱ getȱ ridȱ ofȱ asȱ quicklyȱ asȱweȱ can.ȱ Butȱ nowȱ Iȇveȱ suggestedȱ reasonsȱwhyȱmaybeȱ theyȱareȱ theȱsource,ȱ theȱclue,ȱ forȱ learning.ȱ Inȱotherȱ words,ȱfromȱthereȱweȱcanȱbeginȱtoȱlearn.ȱ

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O:ȱAndȱweȱneverȱdoȱlearnȱbecauseȱweȱdonȇtȱlookȱatȱthem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱoneȱreason.ȱThereȱareȱprobablyȱaȱlotȱofȱotherȱreasons.ȱItȱisȱ partȱofȱ theȱsystem;ȱourȱwholeȱcultureȱ isȱpartȱofȱ theȱsystem,ȱsayingȱ thatȱ weȱ shouldȱgetȱ ridȱofȱpainȱorȱuncertaintyȱasȱquicklyȱasȱweȱ can.ȱAndȱ inȱ addition,ȱthereȱisȱsomeȱinstinctiveȱtendencyȱinȱthatȱdirectionȱanywayȱȬȱtoȱ getȱridȱofȱwhateverȱisȱpainful.ȱ

Thatȱmakesȱsenseȱinȱcertainȱareas,ȱsuchȱasȱwithȱaȱtoothache.ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱ dealȱwithȱtheȱtooth,ȱtoȱstopȱtheȱpain.ȱButȱevenȱthereȱitȱcouldȱbeȱwrong.ȱIfȱ yourȱonlyȱintentionȱwasȱtoȱgetȱridȱofȱtheȱpain,ȱyouȱmightȱjustȱuseȱvariousȱ drugsȱ toȱ relieveȱ theȱ painȱ untilȱ theȱ toothȱ decayed.ȱ Ifȱ theȱ painȱ isȱ anȱ indicatorȱ thatȱsomethingȱ isȱwrong,ȱ itȱshouldȱbeȱ lookedȱatȱ inȱ thatȱwayȱ Ȭȱ somethingȱwhichȱisȱnotȱcoherentȱisȱgoingȱon.ȱ

Itȇsȱveryȱhardȱ toȱgetȱ thisȱstraight,ȱbutȱ theȱpainȱ isȱ inȱsomeȱwayȱaȱsign,ȱaȱ resultȱ ofȱ aȱ certainȱ kindȱ ofȱ incoherence.ȱ Biologicalȱ painȱmayȱ alsoȱ veryȱ oftenȱbeȱsuchȱaȱsign.ȱInȱtheȱtoothȱthereȱisȱsomeȱbacterialȱprocessȱgoingȱonȱ whichȱ isȱ attackingȱ theȱ cells,ȱ andȱ thatȱ isȱ notȱ coherentȱwithȱ theȱ healthyȱ operationȱofȱtheȱbody.ȱPainȱisȱaȱwarningȱofȱthat.ȱSoȱpainȱinȱgeneralȱcouldȱ beȱlookedȱatȱthatȱway.ȱ

Thereȱareȱpeopleȱwhoȱcannotȱfeelȱpain,ȱandȱtheyȱreallyȱhurtȱthemselvesȱ allȱtheȱtime.ȱTheirȱpainȱnervesȱareȱdamaged.ȱInȱfact,ȱleprosyȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱ anȱ instanceȱofȱthat.ȱTheȱpainȱnervesȱareȱdamagedȱbyȱtheȱdisease.ȱItȇsȱanȱ attackȱonȱtheȱnerves,ȱwhichȱpreventsȱoneȱfromȱfeelingȱpain,ȱsoȱthatȱtheseȱ peopleȱdestroyȱtheirȱmusclesȱbyȱusingȱtooȱmuchȱforce.ȱItȇsȱbeenȱobserved,ȱ watchedȱ carefully,ȱ thatȱ theȱ destructionȱ ofȱ leprosyȱ comesȱ fromȱ peopleȱ

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usingȱtooȱmuchȱforceȱinȱeverythingȱtheyȱdo.ȱTheyȱcannotȱtellȱhowȱmuchȱ forceȱtheyȱareȱusing,ȱandȱtheyȱcanȱbeȱobservedȱusingȱfantasticȱamountsȱofȱ forceȱwhichȱdestroyȱtheȱwholeȱsystem.ȱ

Thus,ȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱpainȱhasȱaȱnecessaryȱfunction.ȱAndȱtheȱinstinctiveȱ wishȱ toȱgetȱ ridȱofȱ theȱpainȱ Ȭȱwhichȱworksȱonȱ theȱ animalȱ levelȱ Ȭȱ isȱnotȱ appropriateȱ hereȱ withȱ thought.ȱ Thatȱ instinctȱ isȱ notȱ goodȱ enough.ȱ Somethingȱmuchȱmoreȱdeepȱandȱsubtleȱisȱneeded.ȱ

Q:ȱPainȱcouldȱalsoȱbeȱaȱthought.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱthoughtȱcanȱbeȱpainful.ȱTheȱthoughtȱofȱwhatȱanȱidioticȱthingȱ youȇveȱ done,ȱ orȱ whatȱ aȱ foolȱ youȇveȱmadeȱ ofȱ yourselfȱ couldȱ beȱ veryȱ painful.ȱ

Q:ȱOrȱinȱotherȱcasesȱpainȱcouldȱbeȱmoreȱlikeȱaȱperception,ȱsomethingȱnotȱ soȱmuchȱcomingȱfromȱthought.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Butȱ evenȱ so,ȱ thatȱpainȱ isȱ somethingȱ toȱ beȱperceived.ȱ Evenȱ ifȱ itȱ comesȱfromȱthoughtȱthereȱisȱaȱperceptionȱneededȱinȱorderȱtoȱlearn.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Theȱ painȱ doesnȇtȱ seemȱ toȱ comeȱ fromȱ thoughtȱ though.ȱ Theȱ painȱ isȱ somethingȱIȱgenerateȱinȱmeȱinȱresponseȱtoȱtheȱthought.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱitȇsȱpartȱofȱtheȱgeneralizedȱthought,ȱinȱtheȱsenseȱIȇmȱusingȱtheȱ wordȱȬȱofȱtheȱwholeȱbodilyȱresponse.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱIȱdidnȇtȱunderstandȱthat,ȱIȱwouldȱtryȱtoȱuseȱmyȱthoughtȱtoȱsolveȱtheȱ problemȱ ofȱ theȱ painȱ whichȱ Iȱ amȱ generatingȱ throughȱ myȱ thinking.ȱ WhereasȱIȱam,ȱinȱaȱsense,ȱcausingȱmyselfȱpainȱinȱresponseȱtoȱtheȱthoughtȱ Ȭȱunbeknownstȱtoȱmyself.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱYouȇreȱhurtingȱyourself;ȱthatȱisȱaȱsimpleȱwayȱtoȱputȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱ Onceȱ theȱ thoughtȱ orȱ theȱ imageȱ isȱ there,ȱ isnȇtȱ theȱ responseȱ oftenȱ immediate?ȱIȱmean,ȱitȇsȱnotȱthatȱweȱareȱdoingȱitȱtoȱourselvesȱsoȱmuchȱasȱ thatȱtheȱthoughtȱitselfȱseemsȱtoȱbringȱphysicalȱpain.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ partȱ ofȱ thisȱ generalizedȱ process.ȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱneverȱ justȱ thought,ȱ itȇsȱalsoȱ theȱbodilyȱ state,ȱ theȱ feeling,ȱ theȱ nerves.ȱ Whateverȱ isȱ goingȱ onȱ inȱ theȱ intellectualȱ partȱ connectsȱ withȱ everythingȱelse.ȱItȱflowsȱoutȱsoȱfastȱthatȱyouȱcanȇtȱkeepȱitȱinȱoneȱplace.ȱAȱ thoughtȱofȱaȱcertainȱkindȱwillȱproduceȱeitherȱpleasureȱorȱpainȱȬȱorȱatȱleastȱ aȱmemoryȱofȱoneȱofȱthoseȱfeelings.ȱ

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Q:ȱDidnȇtȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱanȱ immediateȱ thing,ȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱdirectlyȱwiredȱ intoȱtheȱnervousȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ itȱ couldȱ takeȱ aȱ secondȱorȱ twoȱbeforeȱyouȱ feelȱ theȱpain.ȱ Itȱ takesȱaȱ secondȱorȱ twoȱ forȱ theȱnerveȱ impulsesȱ toȱgetȱdownȱ toȱ theȱ solarȱ plexusȱwhereȱyouȱmightȱ feelȱ theȱpain.ȱAndȱyouȱdonȇtȱrealizeȱ thatȱwhatȱ youȱareȱfeelingȱinȱtheȱbodyȱhasȱbeenȱstimulatedȱbyȱyourȱthought,ȱsoȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇIȱ feelȱ fearȱ inȱ theȱ pitȱ ofȱmyȱ stomachȇ,ȱ orȱ ȇmyȱ heartȱ isȱ brokenȇ,ȱ orȱ somethingȱlikeȱthat.ȱ

Iȇmȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱacrossȱtheȱpictureȱthatȱthisȱisȱoneȱunbrokenȱprocess.ȱInȱaȱ senseȱ Iȱ amȱ notȱ doingȱ anythingȱ Ȭȱ itȇsȱ goingȱ onȱ byȱ itself.ȱ Butȱ theȱ tacitȱ assumptionȱofȱthoughtȱisȱthatȱIȱamȱdoingȱeverythingȱandȱthoughtȱisȱjustȱ tellingȱmeȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱare.ȱ

Q:ȱNo,ȱtheȱthoughtȱisȱȇtheȱpainȱisȱbeingȱdoneȱtoȱmeȇ.ȱYouȱsayȱsomething,ȱ andȱthereforeȱIȱamȱhurt.ȱAndȱIȱactuallyȱfeelȱphysicallyȱhurt.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Butȱ thisȱ thoughtȱ isȱ double.ȱ Theȱ thoughtȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ thinkingȱ isȱ beingȱdoneȱbyȱme,ȱandȱtheȱpainȱisȱbeingȱdoneȱtoȱmeȱbyȱyou.ȱ

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Q:ȱYouȇreȱsayingȱthatȱtheȱpainȱisȱbeingȱdoneȱbyȱme?ȱBohm:ȱByȱtheȱsameȱ thoughtȱthatȱdoesȱitȱallȱinȱtheȱfirstȱplace.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱitȱsoȱfastȱbecauseȱtheȱemotionȱmediatesȱtheȱprocess?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱEmotionȱ isȱveryȱfast,ȱthatȇsȱtrue.ȱTheȱemotionalȱcentreȱ isȱhitȱveryȱ quickly.ȱButȱ thenȱ thereȱ isȱanotherȱ centreȱdownȱ inȱ theȱ solarȱplexusȱ thatȱ takesȱlonger;ȱitȱmayȱtakeȱtwoȱorȱthreeȱseconds.ȱ

Thereȱ isȱanȱ instrumentȱ calledȱaȱpolygraph.ȱAnȱ electrodeȱ isȱattachedȱ toȱ yourȱ fingerȱ andȱmeasuresȱyourȱ skinȱ resistance.ȱWhenȱ yourȱ autonomicȱ nervousȱ systemȱ isȱ working,ȱ theȱ machineȱ deflects.ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱ saysȱ somethingȱ disturbingȱ toȱ you,ȱ theȱ needleȱ deflectsȱ aboutȱ threeȱ secondsȱ later.ȱ Itȱ takesȱ aȱ fewȱ secondsȱ forȱ theȱ impulseȱ toȱ getȱ downȱ theȱ spinalȱ column;ȱ itȇsȱ inȱ theȱpipelineȱ forȱaȱ fewȱseconds,ȱandȱ thenȱ itȱoperates.ȱButȱ sinceȱyouȱdonȇtȱ seeȱ itȱgoingȱdownȱ theȱpipeline,ȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ itȱworkedȱ independentlyȱȬȱthatȱitȱwasȱaȱgutȱfeeling,ȱveryȱimportant,ȱorȱstraightȱfromȱ theȱheart.ȱNow,ȱ thereȱmayȱbeȱgutȱ feelings,ȱorȱ feelingsȱstraightȱ fromȱ theȱ heart,ȱbutȱmemoryȱcanȱproduceȱsomethingȱveryȱsimilar.ȱThatȇsȱwhereȱtheȱ difficultyȱis.ȱ

Itȱ isȱ gettingȱ late.ȱDuringȱ theȱ nightȱ youȱmayȱwantȱ toȱ goȱ overȱ thisȱ andȱ thinkȱ orȱ feelȱ it.ȱWeȱ couldȱ startȱ tomorrowȱ byȱdiscussingȱwhateverȱ youȱ mayȱ learn.

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SATURDAYȱMORNINGȱ ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱdiscussedȱaȱnumberȱofȱpointsȱyesterday.ȱWeȱtalkedȱaboutȱtheȱ depressingȱ stateȱofȱ theȱworld,ȱandȱ theȱmanyȱproblemsȱ confrontingȱ theȱ individualȱandȱ theȱsociety.ȱWeȱconsideredȱ theȱnotionȱ thatȱ theȱsourceȱofȱ allȱ theseȱproblemsȱ isȱ thoughtȱ—ȱ thatȱ theyȱareȱ symptomsȱofȱ somethingȱ deeper,ȱwhichȱisȱtheȱwholeȱprocess.ȱWeȱwereȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱnotȱ merelyȱtheȱintellectualȱactivity;ȱratherȱitȱisȱoneȱconnectedȱprocessȱwhichȱ includesȱfeelingȱandȱtheȱbody,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱAlso,ȱitȱpassesȱbetweenȱpeopleȱ Ȭȱitȇsȱallȱoneȱprocessȱallȱoverȱtheȱworld.ȱ

IȱsuggestedȱthatȱweȱcallȱthatȱprocessȱaȱȇsystemȇȱȬȱaȱwholeȱsystemȱinȱwhichȱ everyȱpartȱisȱdependentȱonȱeveryȱotherȱpart.ȱIȱalsoȱsuggestedȱthatȱthereȱisȱ aȱkindȱofȱsystemicȱ flawȱwhichȱ isȱpervasive.ȱSoȱwhenȱweȱseeȱsomethingȱ wrongȱwithȱaȱpartȱofȱthisȱsystem,ȱweȱbringȱanotherȱpartȱtoȱbearȱtoȱtryȱtoȱ correctȱit;ȱbutȱdoingȱsoȱwillȱjustȱaddȱmore,ȱveryȱsimilarȱtroubles.ȱWeȱwentȱ onȱ toȱsayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱnotȱpossibleȱ toȱsolveȱourȱproblemsȱ thatȱwayȱ Ȭȱrather,ȱ theyȱmayȱgetȱworseȱinsteadȱofȱbetterȱȬandȱthatȱtheseȱtroublesȱthroughoutȱ theȱworldȱhaveȱbeenȱgoingȱonȱforȱthousandsȱofȱyears.ȱ

Also,ȱweȱ saidȱ thatȱwhenȱyouȱ tryȱ toȱ lookȱatȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱonȱ insideȱyouȱ whenȱallȱthisȱisȱhappeningȱyouȱmayȱgetȱunpleasantȱfeelingsȱsuchȱasȱpainȱ orȱfear;ȱandȱthatȱinstinct,ȱasȱwellȱasȱtheȱwholeȱculture,ȱleadsȱyouȱtoȱmoveȱ awayȱ fromȱ lookingȱatȱ it.ȱButȱ itȱ isȱnecessaryȱ toȱstayȱwithȱ itȱsomehow,ȱ inȱ spiteȱofȱtheȱdifficultyȱofȱdoingȱso.ȱThatȱwasȱwhatȱweȱwereȱdiscussingȱatȱ

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theȱendȱȬȱthatȱitȱisȱreallyȱworthȱdoingȱbecauseȱinȱthisȱwayȱweȱmayȱlearnȱ somethingȱaboutȱhowȱitȱallȱgoes.ȱ

Now,ȱIȱthoughtȱthatȱpeopleȱmightȱhaveȱaȱfewȱpointsȱtoȱraiseȱaboutȱwhatȱ weȇveȱbeenȱtalkingȱaboutȱbeforeȱweȱgoȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱDuringȱyourȱconversationȱyesterdayȱ Iȱassumedȱ Iȱwasȱunderstandingȱ whatȱ youȱwereȱ relatingȱ toȱ us.ȱ Butȱ thenȱ thereȱwouldȱ beȱ spacesȱ ofȱ notȱ understanding.ȱWhenȱIȱwentȱhomeȱIȱcouldnȇtȱsleep.ȱFinallyȱIȱtookȱaȱpadȱ andȱ pencilȱ andȱwroteȱ aboutȱ tenȱ orȱ fifteenȱ questions.ȱAfterȱ thatȱ Iȱ feltȱ better,ȱandȱfellȱasleep.ȱDidȱmyȱbrainȱneedȱthatȱorderȱandȱquestioning,ȱorȱ whateverȱitȱcameȱto?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ It’sȱpossibleȱ thatȱ theȱwholeȱdiscussionȱ leavesȱquestionsȱ andȱ theȱ mindȱbringsȱ themȱup.ȱ Ifȱyouȇreȱpuzzledȱbyȱ somethingȱ thenȱ itȱwonȇtȱ letȱ youȱgo.ȱTheȱmajorȱpointȱisȱwhetherȱyouȱareȱlookingȱintoȱwhatȱisȱgoingȱonȱ andȱperceivingȱtheȱincoherenceȱȬȱseeingȱwhatȱitȱmeansȱforȱyourself.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱsheȱjustȱsaidȱmightȱsuggestȱthatȱthisȱisȱmoreȱofȱaȱpsychosomaticȱ processȱ thanȱweȱ realize.ȱWeȱ tendȱ toȱ thinkȱ ofȱ itȱ asȱ aȱmentalȱ process,ȱ whereasȱmaybeȱthereȇsȱmoreȱinvolvedȱthanȱthat.ȱMaybeȱweȱhaveȱtoȱkeepȱ anȱawarenessȱforȱthatȱotherȱaspectȱofȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAsȱIȱpointedȱoutȱweȱwereȱsayingȱyesterdayȱthatȱitȱisȱoneȱsystem;ȱ theȱthoughts,ȱtheȱbody,ȱtheȱemotionsȱandȱalsoȱotherȱpeople,ȱareȱallȱpartȱofȱ oneȱsystem.ȱAndȱwhenȱyouȱraiseȱquestionsȱintellectuallyȱtheyȱmayȱaffectȱ

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theȱ nonȬintellectualȱ partsȱ orȱ viceȱ versaȱ Ȭȱ theȱ otherȱ elementsȱ affectȱ theȱ intellect.ȱThereforeȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱ seeȱ itȱasȱoneȱ system.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱ crucialȱ point,ȱbecauseȱotherwiseȱyouȱwillȱneverȱbeȱableȱtoȱdealȱwithȱit.ȱIfȱitȱisȱoneȱ systemȱyouȱdealȱwithȱallȱtheȱparts.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ itȱ possibleȱ toȱ fitȱ theȱ conceptȱ ofȱ addictionȱ intoȱ whatȱ youȱ wereȱ saying?ȱ Iȱ thinkȱofȱaddictionȱasȱ includingȱnotȱonlyȱphysicalȱaddictionȱ toȱ thingsȱ likeȱ drugsȱ andȱ alcoholȱ butȱ alsoȱ variousȱ kindsȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ addiction.ȱThereȱareȱsupposedlyȱpositiveȱandȱnegativeȱones.ȱAȱnegativeȱ thoughtȱaddictionȱmightȱbeȱ racism.ȱAȱpositiveȱoneȱ couldȱbeȱ theȱwholeȱ legionȱ ofȱ booksȱ thatȱ haveȱ beenȱ writtenȱ inȱ theȱ areaȱ ofȱ ȇtheȱ powerȱ ofȱ positiveȱ thinkingȇ.ȱ Isȱ thisȱ thoughtȱ addictionȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ youȇreȱspeakingȱabout,ȱorȱcanȱitȱbeȱmanipulatedȱinȱpositiveȱways?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱyouȱengageȱinȱpositiveȱthinkingȱtoȱovercomeȱnegativeȱthoughts,ȱ theȱnegativeȱ thoughtsȱareȱ stillȱ thereȱacting.ȱThatȇsȱ stillȱ incoherence.ȱ Itȇsȱ notȱenoughȱ justȱtoȱengageȱinȱpositiveȱthoughtsȱwhenȱyouȱhaveȱnegativeȱ thoughtsȱ registered,ȱ becauseȱ theyȱ keepȱ onȱ workingȱ andȱ willȱ causeȱ troubleȱsomewhereȱelseȬȱ I’llȱ justȱsayȱaȱ fewȱwordsȱaboutȱaddiction.ȱOneȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱwhenȱ youȱ takeȱ aȱ substanceȱ suchȱ asȱmorphine,ȱ itȱ actsȱ byȱ coveringȱupȱcertainȱnervesȱorȱpainȱreceptorsȱsoȱyouȱdonȇtȱfeelȱpain.ȱNow,ȱ theȱ bodyȱ canȱ createȱ naturalȱ substancesȱ ofȱ similarȱmolecularȱ structure,ȱ calledȱ ȇendorphinsȇ,ȱwhichȱ doȱ theȱ sameȱ Ȭȱ perhapsȱ evenȱ better.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱ peopleȱ sayȱ thatȱ sometimesȱ soldiersȱwhoȱhaveȱ beenȱ badlyȱwoundedȱ inȱ battleȱfeelȱnoȱpain.ȱTheyȱhaveȱaȱ lotȱofȱendorphinsȱatȱtheȱtime,ȱandȱonlyȱ

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laterȱdoȱtheyȱfeelȱpain.ȱSoȱthatȱhasȱaȱusefulȱfunctionȱinȱthatȱitȱhelpsȱthemȱ toȱsurvive.ȱ

Butȱ itȱ isȱ alsoȱ possibleȱ forȱ thoughtsȱ Ȭȱ reassuringȱ thoughtsȱ orȱ pleasantȱ thoughtsȱ Ȭȱ toȱproduceȱ endorphins.ȱAndȱ thenȱyouȱ couldȱ inȱ someȱ senseȱ becomeȱaddictedȱtoȱthoseȱthoughts,ȱsayingȱIȱwonȇtȱgiveȱthemȱup;ȱevenȱifȱ theyȇreȱwrongȱ Iȇllȱbelieveȱ themȱ toȱbeȱ trueȇ.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱbearȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱ whatȱyouȱwantȱ toȱ thinkȱmightȱnotȱbeȱ true,ȱbecauseȱ thatȱwouldȱ removeȱ theȱendorphinsȱandȱthenȱtheȱpainȱwouldȱstartȱcomingȱback.ȱ

Soȱyouȱcanȱsayȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱaȱkindȱofȱaddictionȱ inȱ theȱ thoughtȱprocessȱ whichȱisȱpossible.ȱInȱfact,ȱitȇsȱoneȱofȱtheȱthingsȱthatȱholdsȱus.ȱTheȱthoughtȱ processȱisȱneurophysiologicalȱasȱwellȱasȱintellectualȱandȱemotional.ȱItȱhasȱ physicalȱ andȱ chemicalȱ elements.ȱ Medicalȱ investigatorsȱ haveȱ demonstratedȱ thisȱwhenȱ theyȱdoȱvariousȱscansȱofȱ theȱbrain.ȱEveryȱ timeȱ youȱ think,ȱ theȱ bloodȱ distributionȱ shiftsȱ allȱ aroundȱ andȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ changesȱ occurȱ inside;ȱ thereȱ areȱ electricalȱ brainȱ wavesȱ thatȱ canȱ beȱ measured.ȱ Thusȱ thoughtȱ has,ȱ atȱ theȱ veryȱ least,ȱ aȱ certainȱ basisȱ inȱ thisȱ neurophysiologicalȱ process;ȱ itȱ canȱ neverȱ beȱ separatedȱ fromȱ it.ȱ Thatȇsȱ somethingȱweȱhaveȱtoȱkeepȱinȱmind.ȱ

Andȱ thatȱprocessȱ isȱpartȱofȱ theȱsystemȱweȇreȱ talkingȱabout.ȱAlso,ȱ ifȱyouȱ physicallyȱ alterȱ thatȱ processȱ Ȭȱ byȱ purringȱ drugsȱ intoȱ yourȱ body,ȱ forȱ exampleȱȬȱyouȇveȱalteredȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthereȱaȱspaceȱwhereȱaȱnewȱthoughtȱcomesȱinȱthatȇsȱnotȱconditioned,ȱ whichȱenablesȱusȱtoȱhaveȱaȱdialogue?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWeȱwillȱdiscussȱdialogueȱlater.ȱForȱnowȱIȇllȱsayȱthatȱthereȱmayȱbeȱ aȱspace,ȱbutȱweȱcanȱstartȱtheȱdialogueȱwithoutȱconsideringȱthatȱquestionȱ andȱthenȱdiscoverȱwhetherȱthereȱisȱthatȱspace.ȱ

Oneȱpointȱ Iȱwantedȱ toȱemphasizeȱ lastȱnightȱwasȱ thatȱweȱdonȇtȱwantȱ toȱ regardȱthisȱsystemȱasȱanȱabsolutelyȱfixedȱmonolithicȱthingȱwhichȱyouȱcanȱ neverȱ breakȱ into.ȱ Itȇsȱ actuallyȱ notȱ allȱ thatȱ solid.ȱ Itȱ hasȱ chinksȱ andȱ letsȱ someȱthingsȱthrough,ȱthereforeȱthereȱisȱanȱopportunityȱtoȱdoȱsomething.ȱ Youȱcanȇtȱcontrolȱit,ȱbutȱopportunitiesȱdoȱcomeȱup.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱareȱtheȱeffectsȱofȱtheȱprocessȱofȱȇpositiveȱthinkingȇȱonȱourȱhealth?ȱ Wouldnȇtȱ thereȱ beȱ aȱ schizophrenicȱ dualityȱ betweenȱ theȱ factȱ ofȱ ourȱ negativeȱthoughtsȱandȱtheȱillusionȱofȱtheȱpositiveȱthinking?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱ wantsȱ toȱ engageȱ inȱ positiveȱ thinkingȱ itȇsȱ onlyȱ becauseȱ heȱ isȱ alreadyȱ caughtȱ upȱ inȱ negativeȱ thinking.ȱ Heȱ wantsȱ toȱ overcomeȱthatȱwithȱpositiveȱthinking.ȱButȱtheȱbestȱheȱcanȱhopeȱforȱ isȱtoȱ fillȱhisȱmindȱwithȱpositiveȱthoughtsȱsoȱthatȱtheȱnegativeȱthoughtsȱgoȱintoȱ abeyanceȱandȱdonȇtȱbotherȱhimȱsoȱmuch.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱthoughtsȱgoȱtoȱtheȱbasementȱandȱstayȱthere.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ theyȇreȱ there;ȱ theyȱ areȱ waiting.ȱ Andȱ whenȱ theȱ personȱ somehowȱfeelsȱweakȱorȱfrightenedȱorȱsomethingȱhappens,ȱoutȱtheyȱcome;ȱ heȱ hasnȇtȱ actuallyȱ dealtȱ withȱ thoseȱ negativeȱ thoughtsȱ whichȱ areȱ registeredȱ inȱ hisȱ memory.ȱ Peopleȱ onlyȱ sayȱ thingsȱ likeȱ ȇcheerȱ upȇȱ toȱ

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somebodyȱwhoȇsȱ alreadyȱ depressed.ȱ Ifȱ heȇsȱ depressedȱ forȱ someȱ trivialȱ reasonȱthatȱmayȱbeȱallȱright,ȱbutȱifȱheȱhasȱsomeȱlessȱtrivialȱreasonȱitȱwonȇtȱ goȱ away.ȱHeȱmayȱ cheerȱupȱ forȱ aȱwhile,ȱ butȱ theȱdepressionȱwillȱ comeȱ back.ȱAtȱ theȱveryȱbestȱ itȇsȱnotȱaȱ realȱsolution,ȱandȱatȱ theȱworstȱ itȱcouldȱ bringȱ inȱvariousȱendorphinsȱandȱmakeȱhimȱaddictedȱ toȱ falseȱ thoughts,ȱ andȱsoȱon.ȱItȱisȱnotȱaȱsolution.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱdeeperȱthanȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱweȱhaveȱaȱpsychologyȱinȱwhichȱourȱwellȬbeingȱisȱ basedȱonȱhavingȱaffirmingȱimages,ȱandȱthatȱthatȱpsychologyȱcouldȱneverȱ standȱupȱasȱaȱrealȱbaseȱforȱwellȬbeingȱbecauseȱsoonerȱorȱlaterȱweȇreȱgoingȱ toȱgetȱnegativeȱimages?ȱ ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ soȱ longȱ asȱweȱ takeȱ theseȱ imagesȱ seriously.ȱ Ifȱweȱ canȱ beȱ cheeredȱupȱbyȱpositiveȱimagesȱweȱcanȱbeȱdepressedȱbyȱnegativeȱones.ȱAsȱ longȱ asȱweȱ acceptȱ imagesȱ asȱ realitiesȱweȱ areȱ inȱ thatȱ trap,ȱbecauseȱyouȱ canȇtȱcontrolȱtheȱ images.ȱYouȱmayȱbeȱgettingȱsomeȱniceȱpositiveȱ imagesȱ fromȱtheȱpeopleȱaroundȱyouȱandȱthenȱalongȱcomesȱsomebodyȱwhoȱgivesȱ youȱanȱextremelyȱnegativeȱ image.ȱThenȱ theȱveryȱchannelsȱwhichȱmadeȱ youȱ feelȱ goodȱ becauseȱ ofȱ theȱ positiveȱ imageȱ enableȱ youȱ toȱ feelȱ badȱ becauseȱofȱtheȱnegativeȱimage.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱseemsȱyouȇreȱimplyingȱthatȱinȱorderȱtoȱbeȱreallyȱattentiveȱtoȱwhatȇsȱ goingȱ onȱ withȱ thought,ȱ peopleȱ wouldȱ haveȱ toȱ doȱ soȱ inȱ depth.ȱ Theȱ

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psychologicalȱworldȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱshadowȱsideȱofȱtheȱpersonalityȱorȱtheȱ angryȱ dogsȱ inȱ theȱ basementȱwhatȱ inȱ psychologyȱ isȱ calledȱ ȇguiltȇ.ȱ Itȱ isȱ alwaysȱburiedȱunderneathȱandȱweȇreȱseeingȱitȱinȱotherȱpeople.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱletȱanythingȱcomeȱupȱwhichȱisȱgoingȱtoȱcomeȱup.ȱButȱ theȱpointȱisȱthatȱweȱhaveȱaȱmechanismȱforȱpreventingȱitȱfromȱcomingȱup.ȱ Theȱbrainȱisȱalreadyȱconditionedȱtoȱkeepȱitȱdown.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱunderstandȱ thatȱprocess.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱthatȇsȱculturallyȱreinforced.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȇsȱalwaysȱbeingȱreinforced.ȱLetȇsȱsayȱ thatȱ thingsȱwhichȱareȱ relevantȱwouldȱotherwiseȱcomeȱupȱinȱconsciousness,ȱbutȱthereȱisȱaȱwholeȱ mechanismȱtoȱkeepȱthemȱdown.ȱ

Q:ȱ Aȱ kindȱ ofȱ suppressionȱ happensȱ evenȱ inȱ someȱ areasȱ thatȱ areȱ consideredȱgood.ȱSomeȱpeopleȱwonȇtȱacceptȱanythingȱniceȱbeingȱsaidȱtoȱ themȱbecauseȱtheyȱdonȇtȱseeȱthemselvesȱasȱbeingȱgood.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱallȱ theȱ sameȱwhetherȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱyouȇreȱwonderfulȱorȱ thatȱ youȇreȱguilty.ȱ Itȇsȱ justȱoneȱ imageȱ insteadȱofȱ theȱother.ȱTheȱ fundamentalȱ processȱisȱnotȱdifferentȱwhetherȱyouȱsayȱȇIȇmȱtheȱgreatestȱandȱtheȱbestȇ,ȱorȱ youȱsayȱ ȇIȇmȱ theȱworst,ȱ Iȇmȱguiltyȱofȱeverythingȇ.ȱ Itȱ isȱ theȱsameȱprocessȱ andȱ theȱ differenceȱ isȱ ratherȱ secondary.ȱ Ifȱ youȱ sayȱ youȱ areȱ theȱ best,ȱ somebodyȱisȱgoingȱtoȱcomeȱalongȱtoȱquestionȱthat.ȱAndȱpeopleȱoften,ȱforȱ allȱsortsȱofȱcomplicatedȱreasonȱinȱtheirȱpast,ȱfindȱitȱeasierȱtoȱacceptȱguilt.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ itȱworthȱquestioningȱ theȱprocessȱ ofȱ either?ȱDonȇtȱweȱhaveȱ toȱgetȱ underneathȱ thatȱwholeȱprocessȱandȱ seeȱ thatȱanyȱ imageȱweȱhaveȱ isȱnotȱ basedȱonȱreality?ȱSoȱitȇsȱnotȱaȱquestionȱofȱwhetherȱIȱshouldȱbelieveȱinȱtheȱ negativeȱorȱtheȱpositive;ȱitȇsȱunderstandingȱtheȱwholeȱthingȱinȱoneȱpiece.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱright.ȱItȱisȱoneȱsystemȱȬȱtheȱpositiveȱandȱtheȱnegative.ȱTheȱ positiveȱandȱtheȱnegativeȱareȱtwoȱsidesȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱAnythingȱpositiveȱ isȱimplicitlyȱnegative,ȱandȱviceȱversa.ȱLetȇsȱtryȱtoȱlookȱatȱthat.ȱ

Somewhereȱ inȱ theȱmiddleȱofȱ theȱbrainȱ thereȱ areȱpleasureȬpainȱ centers.ȱ Researchersȱhaveȱaccessȱtoȱthoseȱcentersȱinȱanimals.ȱIȱonceȱsawȱanȱarticleȱ whichȱshowedȱaȱpictureȱofȱaȱcatȱlookingȱveryȱpleasedȱwhenȱtheyȱtouchedȱ aȱ pleasureȱ centreȱ eitherȱ electricallyȱ orȱ chemically.ȱ Thenȱ whenȱ theyȱ touchedȱ itȱ aȱ littleȱ strongerȱ theȱ catȱ lookedȱ veryȱ frightened.ȱWhenȱ theyȱ touchedȱitȱaȱlittleȱstrongerȱstill,ȱitȱlookedȱenragedȱbutȱsomewhatȱpleasedȱ atȱtheȱsameȱtime.ȱRageȱwasȱpleasure.ȱ

Whatȱ theyȱ saidȱwasȱ thatȱ everyȱ timeȱ youȱ stirȱupȱpleasure,ȱ allȱ theȱpainȱ centersȱaroundȱalsoȱcomeȱinȱtoȱcompensate.ȱEveryȱtimeȱyouȱstirȱupȱpainȱ

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theȱpleasureȱcentersȱcomeȱin.ȱThereȱisȱalwaysȱaȱmixtureȱofȱtheȱtwo.ȱItȇsȱaȱ veryȱ complexȱ feeling.ȱ Supposeȱ youȱ stubȱ yourȱ toe:ȱ youȱ feelȱ pain,ȱ butȱ meanwhileȱ theȱpleasureȱ centersȱ areȱ setȱ toȱworkȱ toȱovercomeȱ thatȱAndȱ whenȱtheȱpainȱgoesȱawayȱyouȱthenȱfeelȱpleasureȱȬȱitȇsȱleftȱover.ȱInȱotherȱ words,ȱ theȱ painȱ hasȱ diedȱ awayȱ andȱ theȱ painȱ centersȱ areȱ quietȱ forȱ aȱ moment.ȱButȱtheȱpleasureȱcentersȱtakeȱaȱbitȱlongerȱtoȱquietȱbecauseȱtheyȱ wereȱ stirredȱupȱaȱ littleȱ later,ȱ soȱoneȱ turnsȱ intoȱ theȱother.ȱLikewise,ȱ theȱ senseȱofȱfearȱandȱtheȱsenseȱofȱsecurityȱwillȱturnȱintoȱeachȱother.ȱ

Thenȱtheȱprocessȱgetsȱmoreȱcomplexȱbecauseȱweȱintroduceȱwordsȱaboutȱ it,ȱ sayingȱ ȇthisȱ isȱ pleasure,ȱ thatȱ isȱpainȇ.ȱWeȇveȱ introducedȱ thisȱwayȱ ofȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thingsȱareȱeitherȱpleasurableȱorȱpainful.ȱ Ifȱsomethingȱ isȱnotȱ pleasurable,ȱ theȱ implicationȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱmightȱ beȱ painful.ȱOrȱ ifȱ youȱ areȱ losingȱtheȱpleasureȱyouȱhadȱbefore,ȱthenȱthereȱisȱanȱimpliedȱlossȱȬȱthereȱisȱ pain.ȱOnȱtheȱotherȱhand,ȱ ifȱyouȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱpainȱ isȱoverȱthenȱyouȱareȱ pleasedȱ byȱ that.ȱ Soȱ pleasureȱ directlyȱ impliesȱ pain,ȱ andȱ painȱ impliesȱ pleasure.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱseparateȱtheȱtwoȱȬȱeitherȱatȱtheȱlevelȱofȱchemistryȱorȱ atȱtheȱlevelȱofȱtheȱintellect,ȱorȱanywhereȱelse.ȱ

Theȱ attemptȱ toȱ haveȱ constantȱpleasureȱmustȱ fail,ȱ becauseȱ theȱpleasureȱ centersȱgetȱwornȱout.ȱAndȱ theȱpainȱ centers,ȱhavingȱbeenȱ stimulatedȱ toȱ balanceȱthem,ȱwillȱthenȱstartȱtoȱcomeȱinȱstrongly.ȱThusȱthereȱisȱnoȱwayȱtoȱ getȱpleasureȱ constantly.ȱ Ifȱyouȱwereȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱdoȱ itȱ Iȱ thinkȱyouȱwouldȱ discoverȱ thatȱ itȱwouldȱ becomeȱpainful.ȱPleasureȱ isȱ alwaysȱ aȱ transitoryȱ phenomenon.ȱ

TheȱpleasureȬpainȱ reactionȱ isȱgenerallyȱappropriateȱ forȱ theȱanimal,ȱbutȱ youȱcanȱseeȱthatȱforȱthoughtȱitȱisȱnot.ȱTheȱcriterionȱforȱcoherentȱthoughtȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ trueȱ andȱ correct.ȱButȱ ifȱ youȱ canȱgetȱpleasureȱ orȱpainȱ fromȱ thoughtȱ thenȱ coherentȱ thoughtȱ isȱ noȱ longerȱ functioning.ȱ Rather,ȱ theȱ criterionȱ hasȱ becomeȱ whetherȱ theȱ thoughtȱ givesȱ pleasureȱ orȱ pain,ȱ

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consequentlyȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ becomesȱ destructive.ȱ Ifȱ thoughtȱ canȱ beȱ determinedȱbyȱpleasureȱorȱpain,ȱ thatȇsȱalreadyȱ theȱbeginningȱofȱaȱ lotȱofȱ trouble.ȱAndȱweȱgetȱconditionedȱbyȱthat.ȱWeȇllȱcomeȱbackȱtoȱallȱthisȱaȱbitȱ later.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱendorphinȱ feelingȱ seemsȱ toȱbeȱ theȱbestȱ thatȱweȱ canȱdoȱwithoutȱ transformingȱintoȱanotherȱstateȱofȱbeing.ȱWeȱseemȱtoȱpreferȱtoȱbeȱinȱthat,ȱ andȱspendȱourȱlivesȱlookingȱforȱwaysȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱkeepȱtheȱendorphinsȱ active.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAnythingȱ thatȱwouldȱ giveȱ endorphinsȱwouldȱ beȱ equivalentȱ toȱ takingȱmorphine,ȱorȱevenȱbetter.ȱYouȇdȱfeelȱgoodȱforȱtheȱtimeȱbeing.ȱButȱ youȱcanȇtȱmaintainȱ theȱendorphinsȱ forever;ȱ itȇsȱboundȱ toȱchange.ȱThereȱ are,ȱforȱexample,ȱotherȱchemicalsȱwhichȱcanȱcauseȱanxiety,ȱandȱthereȱareȱ stillȱothersȱthatȱcauseȱotherȱreactions.ȱTheyȱallȱgoȱonȱtoȱtheȱreceptorsȱinȱaȱ wayȱ youȱ canȇtȱ control.ȱ Thereforeȱ thatȱ processȱ ofȱ pursuingȱ constantȱ pleasureȱ isȱnotȱreallyȱgoingȱtoȱwork.ȱ Ifȱyouȱ lookȱatȱ itȱyouȱwillȱ findȱ thatȱ theȱattemptȱtoȱcontrolȱtheȱendorphinsȱisȱnotȱcoherent.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱfindȱthatȱout;ȱstill,ȱtheȱotherȱstateȱbeyondȱdoesnȇtȱseemȱtoȱarrive.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theȱ ȇotherȱ stateȇȱ isȱ projectedȱ byȱ thisȱ system.ȱ Ifȱ weȱ startȱ byȱ assumingȱthatȱthereȱisȱanotherȱstateȱthenȱweȱhaveȱalreadyȱgoneȱintoȱtheȱ system,ȱbecauseȱ theȱprojectedȱ imageȱofȱanotherȱ stateȱ isȱalsoȱproducingȱ endorphins.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱseeȱthatȱtheȱonlyȱrightȱwayȱtoȱdoȱitȱwouldȱbeȱtoȱ

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sayȱ thatȱweȱwantȱ toȱseeȱwhatȱ isȱ Ȭȱwhatȱ isȱcorrect,ȱwhatȱ isȱ true,ȱwhatȱ isȱ coherent.ȱ

Q:ȱThatȇsȱnotȱtheȱsameȱasȱseekingȱpleasure?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo.ȱButȱevenȱifȱyouȱdoȱgetȱpleasureȱfromȱit,ȱfine,ȱexceptȱthatȱyourȱ seeingȱmayȱgetȱdistorted.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱtheȱkeyȱpointȱisȱthatȱthisȱprocessȱisȱ notȱcoherent;ȱnoneȱofȱitȱhasȱanyȱmeaningȱȬȱwhetherȱyouȱhaveȱpleasureȱorȱ painȱorȱ fearȱorȱwhatever.ȱWhenȱ theȱprocessȱhasȱ sustainedȱ incoherenceȱ thenȱ itȱ allȱ hasȱ noȱ meaning.ȱ Somebodyȱ mayȱ getȱ greatȱ pleasureȱ byȱ deludingȱ himself,ȱ anȱ extremeȱ caseȱ beingȱ ȇIȇmȱGodȇȱ orȱ ‘I’mȱNapoleonȇ.ȱ Andȱ ifȱ heȱ deludesȱ himselfȱ sufficiently,ȱ perhapsȱ heȱ couldȱ keepȱ outȱ allȱ evidenceȱ toȱ theȱ contrary.ȱ Butȱ youȱ canȇtȱmaintainȱ thisȱ foreverȱwithoutȱ destructiveȱconsequences.ȱ

Soȱtheȱattemptȱtoȱliveȱbyȱpleasureȱorȱendorphinsȱisȱnotȱcoherent.ȱWeȱareȱ caughtȱupȱinȱaȱprocess,ȱinȱaȱsystemȱwhichȱisnȇtȱmakingȱsense.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱ firstȱthingȱtoȱnotice.ȱThenȱwhatȱdoȱweȱdo?ȱIȱthinkȱweȱhaveȱtoȱunderstandȱ thisȱprocessȱbetter.ȱ

Q:ȱDoesȱ beingȱ awareȱofȱ theȱ systemȱ alreadyȱbypassȱ theȱ chemistry,ȱ andȱ thereforeȱtheȱthoughtȱisȱnotȱgettingȱhookedȱupȱintoȱtheȱchemistryȱofȱtheȱ endorphins?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Toȱ someȱ extent.ȱ Butȱ probablyȱ youȱ wouldȱ findȱ itȱ wouldȱ getȱ hookedȱupȱ laterȱanyway,ȱbecauseȱsomethingȱwouldȱhappenȱ thatȱcomesȱ inȱtooȱfastȱorȱtooȱpowerfully.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱdidnȇtȱmeanȱforever;ȱbutȱatȱtheȱmomentȱwhenȱyouȱareȱwatchingȱthisȱ processȱ unfolding,ȱmaybeȱ youȇve,ȱ inȱ aȱway,ȱ goneȱ outȱ theȱ backȱ doorȱ Ȭȱ awayȱfromȱtheȱfearȱofȱtheȱpainȱandȱtheȱneedȱforȱtheȱendorphins.ȱ

Bohm:ȱLetȇsȱsayȱyouȱmayȱhaveȱbegunȱtoȱmoveȱonȱanotherȱlevel;ȱorȱthereȱ mayȱbeȱanotherȱ levelȱ thatȱ isȱawakening,ȱwhichȱ isȱnotȱcontrolledȱbyȱ theȱ system.ȱThatȱisȱaȱpossibility.ȱ

Q:ȱArenȇtȱweȱstartingȱthisȱenquiryȱwithȱtheȱnotionȱthatȱIȱamȱinquiring,ȱIȱ haveȱ ȇmyȇȱendorphins,ȱandȱsoȱforth?ȱRightȱthereȱmightȱbeȱaȱtremendousȱ assumption.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱweȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱallȱthat.ȱIȱamȱallȱtheȱcontentȱofȱtheȱsystem,ȱ butȱatȱtheȱsameȱtimeȱIȱmayȱhaveȱaȱpotentialȱforȱmore.ȱThatȇsȱallȱweȱcanȱ say.ȱWeȇreȱnotȱassuming.ȱWeȱareȱexploringȱȬȱdoȱweȱhaveȱtheȱpotentialȱforȱ moreȱthanȱtheȱcontentȱofȱtheȱsystem?ȱ

Q:ȱȇWhatȇȱinquiresȱmightȱhaveȱnothingȱtoȱdoȱwithȱendorphins.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱThereȱmayȱbeȱaȱpotentialȱbeyondȱ theȱsystem.ȱ Ifȱ itȇsȱ trueȱ inquiry,ȱ thenȱperhapsȱitȱisȱbeyondȱtheȱsystem.ȱButȱdonȇtȱassumeȱit,ȱbecauseȱthenȱitȱ willȱbeȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱEveryȱassumptionȱgoesȱintoȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Thereȇsȱanotherȱwayȱweȱcanȱlookȱatȱthisȱwhichȱgivesȱsomeȱinsight:ȱthatȱisȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ thoughtȱ asȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexes.ȱNow,ȱwhatȱ isȱ aȱ reflex?ȱ ȇReflexȇȱ meansȱȇtoȱbendȱbackȇ,ȱȇtoȱturnȱbackȇȱ—ȱtheȱsameȱasȱȇreflectȇ.ȱIfȱyouȱhitȱyourȱ boneȱ atȱ theȱ knee,ȱ theȱ kneeȱwillȱ jerk.ȱWhatȱ happensȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ nervesȱ carryingȱ theȱ signalȱmeetȱ somewhere;ȱ theyȱ crossȱ over,ȱ perhapsȱ inȱ theȱ spine,ȱandȱgoȱoutȱasȱaȱsignalȱ toȱmakeȱyourȱkneeȱ jerk.ȱThatȇsȱoneȱofȱ theȱ mostȱelementaryȱreflexes.ȱ

Weȱhaveȱaȱlotȱofȱreflexes,ȱandȱtheyȱcanȱbeȱconditioned.ȱForȱinstance,ȱdogsȱ haveȱ aȱ reflexȱ thatȱmakesȱ themȱ salivateȱwhenȱ theyȱ seeȱ food.ȱAȱ reflexȱ meansȱ thatȱwhenȱ aȱ certainȱ thingȱ happens,ȱ asȱ aȱ resultȱ somethingȱ elseȱ happensȱautomatically.ȱPavlovȱdidȱanȱexperimentȱwhereȱheȱrangȱaȱbellȱ whileȱshowingȱfoodȱtoȱaȱdog.ȱHeȱdidȱthisȱmanyȱtimes,ȱandȱafterȱaȱwhileȱ theȱdogȱwouldȱsalivateȱwithoutȱseeingȱ food,ȱ justȱ fromȱhearingȱ theȱbell.ȱ Perhapsȱtheȱbellȱremindedȱtheȱdogȱofȱtheȱfood,ȱorȱperhapsȱeventuallyȱitȱ skippedȱ thatȱstageȱandȱ theȱbellȱ justȱmadeȱ theȱdogȱsalivateȱdirectly.ȱButȱ theȱreflexȱwasȱconditionedȱbyȱtheȱbell;ȱ inȱotherȱwords,ȱ itȱwasȱsubjectȱtoȱ anotherȱcondition.ȱ

ThatȱisȱtheȱbasicȱformȱofȱconditioningȱȬȱtoȱrepeatȱsomethingȱquiteȱoften.ȱItȱ somehowȱ leavesȱaȱmarkȱ inȱ theȱsystem,ȱ inȱ theȱnerves,ȱandȱ thenȱaȱ reflexȱ hasȱbeenȱaltered.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱtheȱconditioningȱofȱreflexesȱallȱtheȱtime.ȱInȱ fact,ȱ aȱ greatȱ dealȱ ofȱ ourȱ routineȱ learningȱ consistsȱ inȱ establishingȱ conditionedȱreflexes.ȱAsȱanȱexample,ȱwhenȱyouȱlearnȱtoȱdriveȱaȱcar,ȱyouȱ areȱtryingȱtoȱconditionȱyourȱreflexesȱsoȱthatȱtheyȱwillȱbeȱappropriate.ȱItȇsȱ theȱsameȱwhenȱyouȱ learnȱ toȱwriteȱ Ȭȱyouȱdonȇtȱwantȱ toȱhaveȱ toȱ thinkȱallȱ theȱtimeȱofȱhowȱyouȇreȱgoingȱtoȱformȱtheȱ lettersȱ Ȭȱorȱwhenȱyouȱ learnȱtoȱ

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walkȱorȱtoȱdoȱvariousȱotherȱthings.ȱSoȱcertainȱreflexesȱareȱestablishedȱandȱ conditioned.ȱ

Weȇveȱsaidȱ thatȱwhenȱweȱhaveȱaȱ thoughtȱ itȱ registersȱ inȱ theȱmemory.ȱ Itȱ registersȱinȱtheȱformȱofȱaȱreflex.ȱMemoriesȱoftenȱtakeȱthatȱformȱȬȱyouȱseeȱ somethingȱ andȱ itȱ remindsȱ youȱ ofȱ somethingȱ orȱ itȱ makesȱ youȱ doȱ somethingȱorȱ itȱmakesȱyouȱseeȱsomethingȱ inȱaȱcertainȱway.ȱThoseȱareȱaȱ kindȱofȱreflex.ȱ

Andȱ conditionedȱ reflexesȱ canȱ affectȱ theȱ feelings.ȱ Somebodyȱmayȱ sayȱ somethingȱtoȱyou,ȱandȱyouȱgetȱaȱcertainȱfeelingȱinȱresponseȱtoȱwhatȱwasȱ said.ȱ Itȱmayȱ frightenȱyou,ȱwhichȱ couldȱ affectȱyourȱ adrenalin,ȱ andȱ thatȱ couldȱaffectȱyourȱ thoughts;ȱ thenȱoneȱ thoughtȱ leadsȱ toȱanotherȱandȱ thatȱ leadsȱtoȱanother.ȱYouȱgetȱaȱchainȱofȱthought.ȱ

Youȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱelementaryȱthoughtsȱmayȱtakeȱtheȱformȱofȱaȱseriesȱofȱ reflexesȱ Ȭȱ suchȱ as,ȱ ifȱ somebodyȱ asksȱ youȱ yourȱ nameȱ youȱ haveȱ anȱ immediateȱanswer.ȱ Itȇsȱaȱreflex.ȱWithȱaȱmoreȱdifficultȱquestionȱ thereȇsȱaȱ wayȱtheȱmindȱsearchesȱinȱtheȱmemoryȱforȱanswers;ȱthereȱisȱaȱ ȇsearchingȱ reflexȇȱsetȱupȱȬȱtheȱmindȱsearchesȱtheȱmemory,ȱfindsȱanȱanswerȱthatȱmayȱ seemȱtoȱfit,ȱandȱthenȱthatȱanswerȱcomesȱoutȱandȱyouȱcanȱseeȱwhetherȱitȱ doesȱfitȱorȱnot.ȱ

Iȇmȱproposingȱ thatȱ thisȱwholeȱ systemȱworksȱbyȱ aȱ setȱofȱ reflexesȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ aȱ veryȱ subtleȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱwhichȱ isȱpotentiallyȱunlimited;ȱ youȱcanȱaddȱmoreȱandȱmoreȱandȱyouȱcanȱmodifyȱyourȱreflexes.ȱSupposeȱ likeȱaȱlogicianȱyouȱsay:ȱȇAllȱswansȱareȱwhite.ȱThisȱbirdȱisȱaȱswanȱthereforeȱ thisȱ birdȱ isȱwhite’.ȱ Butȱ thenȱ youȱmodifyȱ thisȱ byȱ sayingȱ ȇIȇveȱ seenȱ thatȱ someȱ swansȱ mayȱ notȱ beȱ white.ȇȱ Andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Evenȱ theȱ wholeȱ logicalȱ process,ȱonceȱ itȇsȱcommittedȱ toȱmemory,ȱbecomesȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexes.ȱYouȱ thinkȱlogicallyȱbyȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexes.ȱThereȱmayȱbeȱaȱperceptionȱofȱreasonȱ

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beyondȱtheȱreflexes,ȱbutȱanythingȱperceivedȱbecomesȱsoonerȱorȱlaterȱaȱsetȱ ofȱreflexes.ȱAndȱthatȇsȱwhatȱIȱwantȱtoȱcallȱȇthought’ȱȬȱwhichȱincludesȱtheȱ emotion,ȱtheȱbodilyȱstate,ȱtheȱphysicalȱreactionȱandȱeverythingȱelse.ȱ

Iȱsayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱusefulȱ toȱ lookȱatȱ thisȱasȱaȱsystemȱofȱreflexes.ȱAȱreflexȱ justȱ operates,ȱasȱweȇveȱseenȱ inȱ theȱcaseȱofȱ theȱkneeȬjerk.ȱHowever,ȱweȱdonȇtȱ usuallyȱ thinkȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ likeȱ theȱkneeȬjerkȱ reflex.ȱWeȱ thinkȱweȱareȱ controllingȱthoughtȱandȱȱ producingȱthought.ȱThatȱwayȱofȱthinkingȱ isȱ partȱofȱourȱwholeȱbackground.ȱButȱIȇmȱsuggestingȱthatȱitȇsȱnotȱgenerallyȱ soȱȬthatȱaȱvastȱpartȱofȱourȱthoughtȱjustȱcomesȱoutȱfromȱtheȱreflexȱsystem.ȱ Youȱonlyȱfindȱoutȱwhatȱtheȱthoughtȱisȱafterȱitȱcomesȱout.ȱNow,ȱthisȱreallyȱ overturnsȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱtheȱwayȱweȱlookȱatȱtheȱmindȱorȱtheȱpersonalityȱ orȱourȱentireȱculturalȱbackground.ȱ

Soȱ itȇsȱworthȱ ponderingȱ thatȱ thisȱwholeȱ system,ȱwhichȱweȱ areȱ callingȱ ȇthoughtȇ,ȱworksȱasȱaȱsystemȱofȱreflexes.ȱTheȱquestionȱis:ȱcanȱyouȱbecomeȱ awareȱofȱ theȱ reflexȱ characterȱofȱ thoughtȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱaȱ reflex,ȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱaȱ wholeȱsystemȱofȱreflexesȱwhichȱisȱconstantlyȱcapableȱofȱbeingȱmodified,ȱ addedȱto,ȱchanged?ȱAndȱweȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱasȱlongȱasȱtheȱreflexesȱareȱfreeȱ toȱ changeȱ thenȱ thereȱmustȱ beȱ someȱ kindȱ ofȱ intelligenceȱ orȱperception,ȱ somethingȱaȱbitȱbeyondȱ theȱreflex,ȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱableȱ toȱseeȱwhetherȱ itȇsȱ coherentȱ orȱ not.ȱ Butȱwhenȱ itȱ getsȱ conditionedȱ tooȱ stronglyȱ itȱmayȱ resistȱthatȱperception;ȱitȱmayȱnotȱallowȱit.ȱIsȱthatȱclearȱwhatȱIȱmean?ȱ

Theȱpointȱ isȱthatȱtheseȱreflexesȱserveȱusȱ ifȱtheyȱareȱnotȱtooȱrigid.ȱAndȱ ifȱ theyȱdonȇtȱwork,ȱ ifȱ theyȱareȱ incoherent,ȱweȱcanȱdropȱ themȱorȱ theyȱmayȱ dropȱ themselves.ȱOnȱ theȱotherȱhand,ȱwhenȱ theȱ reflexȱgetsȱveryȱ strongȱ andȱrigidȱitȱwonȇtȱbeȱdropped.ȱ

Iȱ thinkȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ neurophysiologicalȱ chemicalȱ reasonȱ forȱ that.ȱ Everyȱ thoughtȱ involvesȱsomeȱchangeȱ inȱtheȱchemistryȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱAȱstrongȱ

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thoughtȱwithȱaȱlotȱofȱemotion,ȱforȱinstance,ȱinvolvesȱaȱbiggerȱchange.ȱOrȱ aȱ constantȱ repetitionȱbuildsȱupȱ theȱ change.ȱAndȱbothȱ togetherȱmakeȱ aȱ veryȱpowerfulȱeffect.ȱItȇsȱbeenȱobservedȱthatȱtheȱnervesȱinȱtheȱbrainȱdonȇtȱ quiteȱ touchȱ eachȱ other,ȱ butȱ thereȱ areȱ synapsesȱ whichȱ connectȱ them.ȱ Researchersȱ sayȱ thatȱ experience,ȱ perception,ȱ thought,ȱ andȱ soȱ on,ȱ establishȱsynapseȱconnections.ȱWeȱmayȱassumeȱthatȱtheȱmoreȱyouȱrepeatȱ aȱpattern,ȱtheȱstrongerȱthoseȱconnectionsȱbecome;ȱandȱafterȱaȱwhileȱtheyȱ getȱ veryȱ strong,ȱ veryȱ hardȱ toȱ shake.ȱ Youȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ somethingȱ happensȱ inȱ theȱ chemistry,ȱ inȱ theȱ physics,ȱ inȱ theȱ neurophysiologicalȱ process.ȱ Soȱ thisȱ isȱ notȱ purelyȱ anȱ intellectualȱ problemȱ orȱ anȱ emotionalȱ problemȱorȱevenȱaȱphysicalȱproblem.ȱRather,ȱtheȱreflexesȱgetȱconditionedȱ veryȱstrongly,ȱandȱtheyȱareȱveryȱhardȱtoȱchange.ȱ

Andȱ theyȱ alsoȱ interfere.ȱAȱ reflexȱmayȱ connectȱ toȱ theȱ endorphinsȱ andȱ produceȱanȱimpulseȱtoȱholdȱthatȱwholeȱpatternȱfurther.ȱInȱotherȱwords,ȱitȱ producesȱaȱdefensiveȱreflex.ȱNotȱmerelyȱisȱitȱstuckȱbecauseȱitȇsȱchemicallyȱ soȱ wellȱ builtȱ up,ȱ butȱ alsoȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ defensiveȱ reflexȱ whichȱ defendsȱ againstȱevidenceȱwhichȱmightȱweakenȱit.ȱThusȱitȱallȱhappens,ȱoneȱreflexȱ afterȱanotherȱafterȱanother.ȱ Itȇsȱ justȱaȱvastȱ systemȱofȱ reflexes.ȱAndȱ theyȱ formȱaȱȇstructureȇȱasȱtheyȱgetȱmoreȱrigid.ȱ

Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthisȱtheȱevolutionȱofȱlearning?ȱIsnȇtȱthisȱalsoȱhowȱourȱbodiesȱhaveȱ evolved?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱmayȱbe.ȱButȱnowȱ theȱquestionȱ is:ȱareȱ thoseȱ reflexesȱcoherent?ȱ Accordingȱtoȱtheȱtheoryȱofȱevolution,ȱincoherentȱsystemsȱdonȇtȱlastȱveryȱ long.ȱThisȱ isȱcalledȱ ȇnaturalȱselectionȇ.ȱ Inȱ thought,ȱhowever,ȱweȱseemȱ toȱ beȱableȱ toȱkeepȱupȱ theseȱ incoherentȱsystemsȱofȱreflexes,ȱatȱ leastȱquiteȱaȱ

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while.ȱSometimesȱ theȱpeopleȱwhoȱhaveȱ themȱmightȱnotȱ liveȱveryȱ long,ȱ butȱinȱourȱsocietyȱweȱhaveȱarrangedȱconditionsȱwhereȱweȱcanȱgoȱonȱwithȱ aȱ lotȱofȱ incoherenceȱwithoutȱactuallyȱ leadingȱtoȱaȱselectionȱprocess.ȱTheȱ pointȱisȱthatȱreflexesȱcanȱbecomeȱincoherentȱandȱgetȱstuckȱbecauseȱofȱallȱ theseȱmechanisms.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱyouȱhadȱtoȱuseȱanotherȱwordȱforȱincoherence,ȱwhatȱwouldȱitȱbe?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ ȇInconsistencyȇ,ȱ ȇConflictȇ.ȱWhatȱ isȱ incoherentȱmayȱ showȱ upȱ asȱ contradiction,ȱasȱstress.ȱ

Q:ȱInappropriate?ȱ

Bohm:ȱInappropriate,ȱyes,ȱifȱitȇsȱsustained.ȱWhatȱIȱmeanȱisȱthatȱifȱthereȱisȱ sustainedȱincoherence,ȱitȱjustȱkeepsȱonȱgoingȱinȱspiteȱofȱtheȱfactȱthatȱthereȱ isȱevidenceȱwhichȱwouldȱshowȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ incoherent.ȱNow,ȱweȱcouldȱsayȱ thatȱanȱintelligentȱresponseȱonȱseeingȱincoherenceȱwouldȱbeȱtoȱstopȱit,ȱtoȱ suspendȱ itȱandȱbeginȱtoȱ lookȱoutȱforȱtheȱreasonȱforȱtheȱ incoherenceȱandȱ thenȱ toȱ changeȱ it.ȱ Butȱ Iȱ sayȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ defensiveȱ incoherence.ȱ Anȱ incoherentȱ trainȱofȱ thoughtȱwhichȱgetsȱattachedȱ toȱ theȱendorphinsȱwillȱ typicallyȱdefendȱitself,ȱbecauseȱyouȱwillȱfeelȱveryȱuncomfortableȱwhenȱitȱ isȱquestioned;ȱtheȱquestioningȱstartsȱtoȱremoveȱtheȱendorphins.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsȱthereȱanȱanalogyȱbetweenȱincoherenceȱandȱcancer?ȱ

Bohm:ȱCancerȱ isȱ anȱ incoherentȱ growth.ȱ Itȇsȱ incoherentȱwithȱ theȱwholeȱ systemȱofȱtheȱbody,ȱandȱitȱgrowsȱonȱitsȱown.ȱForȱsomeȱreasonȱtheȱcancerȱ isȱnotȱacceptingȱwhateverȱsystemȱtheȱbodyȱusesȱtoȱkeepȱitselfȱinȱorder;ȱitȱ defendsȱitselfȱagainstȱit,ȱandȱinȱfactȱevenȱmobilizesȱtheȱbodyȱtoȱsupportȱit.ȱ Iȇveȱreadȱthatȱcertainȱkindsȱofȱcancersȱcanȱsendȱoutȱchemicalsȱtoȱtheȱbodyȱ whichȱcauseȱtheȱbodyȱtoȱgrowȱbloodȱvesselsȱtoȱfeedȱtheȱcancer,ȱwhichȱisȱaȱ highlyȱincoherentȱprocessȱfromȱtheȱpointȱofȱviewȱofȱtheȱbody.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱFromȱthatȱstandpoint,ȱanyȱformȱofȱdiseaseȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱsameȱthing.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱaȱkindȱofȱincoherence.ȱItȇsȱincoherentȱwithȱtheȱorganismȱasȱaȱ whole.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱweȱsayȱthatȱstressȱwouldȱbeȱaȱcrystallizationȱofȱtheȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱStressȱwouldȱbeȱaȱ lotȱofȱconflictȱresultingȱ fromȱ thisȱ incoherence.ȱ Youȱcanȱseeȱthatȱitȱaffectsȱtheȱchemistry,ȱnotȱonlyȱinȱtheȱbrainȱbutȱallȱoverȱ theȱbody,ȱandȱproducesȱfurtherȱchangesȱwhichȱkeepȱonȱaccumulating.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱweȱuseȱ theȱwordȱ ȇreactionȇȱwithȱ reflexes?ȱAreȱ theseȱ reflexesȱallȱ physiologicalȱorȱisȱtheȱreactionȱpsychological?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Iȱ wantȱ toȱ emphasizeȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ notȱ justȱ psychological.ȱ Everyȱ reactionȱisȱalsoȱneurophysiological.ȱThatȇsȱwhyȱIȱpreferȱtoȱcallȱitȱaȱreflex.ȱ Everyȱ reactionȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ isȱ alwaysȱ simultaneouslyȱ emotional,ȱ neurophysiological,ȱchemicalȱandȱeverythingȱelse.ȱItȱisȱallȱoneȱsystem.ȱInȱ someȱcasesȱthatȱmayȱnotȱbeȱimportant,ȱbutȱthereȱisȱalwaysȱaȱslightȱeffectȱ atȱ theȱ veryȱ least.ȱAndȱwhenȱ thereȇsȱ aȱ powerfulȱ conditioningȱ thenȱ theȱ effectȱ isȱveryȱgreat.ȱ Iȱmean,ȱwhenȱyouȱ justȱhaveȱaȱ thoughtȱ suchȱasȱ ȇtheȱ cupȱ isȱonȱtheȱtableȇȱ itȇsȱaȱratherȱminorȱeffect;ȱbutȱsomeȱphysicalȱeffectȱ isȱ goingȱonȱjustȱtoȱsayȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱweȱ sayȱ thatȱanythingȱweȱdoȱorȱ thinkȱ thatȱ isȱoutȱofȱharmonyȱ withȱtheȱwholeȱwouldȱbeȱincoherence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱdependsȱonȱwhatȱweȱmeanȱbyȱ ȇtheȱwholeȇ.ȱ Itȇsȱhardȱ toȱgiveȱaȱ positiveȱdefinition,ȱbutȱtheȱbasicȱsignȱofȱincoherenceȱisȱthatȱyouȇreȱgettingȱ someȱresultȱwhichȱyouȱdonȇtȱintendȱandȱdonȇtȱwant.ȱAndȱtheȱotherȱsignsȱ areȱcontradiction,ȱconflict,ȱstress,ȱandȱallȱthoseȱthings.ȱ

Q:ȱConfusion?ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱConfusion,ȱyes.ȱ

Q:ȱ Andȱ alsoȱ ourȱ actionȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ getȱ outȱ ofȱ theȱ confusionȱ wouldȱ beȱ incoherent?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWeȱmayȱ haveȱ anȱ inappropriateȱ action.ȱWithinȱ theȱ system,ȱ theȱ actionȱtoȱgetȱoutȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱtrouble.ȱ

Q:ȱAȱmomentȱagoȱ itȱwasȱaskedȱwhetherȱanythingȱoutȱofȱharmonyȱwithȱ theȱwholeȱwouldȱbeȱ incoherence.ȱButȱ itȱ seemsȱweȱ couldnȇtȱknowȱwhatȱ theȱwholeȱ actuallyȱ is,ȱ andȱ incoherenceȱ couldȱ onlyȱ beȱ inȱ lessȱ thanȱ theȱ whole.ȱ

Bohm:ȱSomeȱpartȱisȱnotȱcoherentȱwithȱtheȱrest,ȱyes.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȇveȱestablishedȱ limitsȱwithinȱ theȱwhole.ȱPerhapsȱourȱcrazinessȱasȱ humanȱbeingsȱmightȱreallyȱbeȱpartȱofȱaȱgreaterȱcoherence,ȱbyȱeliminatingȱ theȱspeciesȱbecauseȱitȇsȱsuchȱaȱreprehensibleȱone.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱyouȱ takeȱaȱgreatȱenoughȱwholeȱ thenȱ itȇsȱcoherent.ȱThatȱ is,ȱ theȱ universeȱasȱaȱwholeȱ isȱcoherent,ȱandȱanythingȱ incoherentȱweȱdoȱ isȱ justȱ partȱofȱtheȱcoherenceȱofȱtheȱuniverseȱwhenȱweȱlookȱatȱitȱthatȱway,ȱevenȱ thoughȱifȱweȱdoȱsomethingȱcrazyȱweȱwillȱgetȱaȱresultȱweȱdonȇtȱwant.ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱoutȱofȱourȱ levelȱofȱ incoherenceȱweȱmightȱ tryȱ toȱbecomeȱcoherent,ȱ andȱthatȱmightȱbeȱpartȱofȱtheȱincoherence?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYouȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱinȱtheȱuniverseȱasȱaȱwholeȱthereȇsȱnoȱreasonȱtoȱ sayȱ thereȱ isȱ incoherence.ȱ Butȱwe,ȱ inȱ ourȱ particularȱ structure,ȱ areȱ notȱ coherent.ȱAndȱaȱspeciesȱthatȱisȱnotȱcoherentȱeitherȱwithȱitselfȱorȱwithȱitsȱ environmentȱ doesnȇtȱ survive.ȱ Thatȇsȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ coherenceȱ ofȱ theȱ universe.ȱ Itȱ isȱ preciselyȱ becauseȱ theȱ universeȱ isȱ coherentȱ thatȱ anȱ incoherentȱspeciesȱdoesnȇtȱsurvive.ȱ

Q:ȱQuestioningȱ ourȱ incoherenceȱmayȱ alsoȱ beȱ partȱ ofȱ ourȱ coherence.ȱ Itȱ couldȱbeȱ theȱuniversalȱcoherenceȱ thatȇsȱ steppingȱ inȱandȱ saying:ȱ ȇWaitȱaȱ minute.ȱThisȱisnȇtȱworking.ȇȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱcouldȱbeȱthatȱthatȇsȱpartȱofȱitȱtoo.ȱTheȱquestionȱisȱthen:ȱwhichȱisȱ goingȱtoȱprevailȱȬȱthisȱquestioningȱorȱtheȱoldȱconditioningȱhabits?ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱyouȱsayȱthatȱatȱtheȱmomentȱofȱconception,ȱeachȱhumanȱbeingȱ isȱprettyȱmuchȱpredestinedȱtoȱhaveȱthisȱincoherence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȱthinkȱitȇsȱbuiltȱintoȱtheȱnatureȱofȱthoughtȱthatȱthisȱisȱaȱpossibility.ȱ Andȱbyȱnowȱweȱhaveȱbuiltȱupȱaȱsocietyȱandȱaȱcultureȱwhichȱimplantsȱitȱ inȱeverybody,ȱevenȱifȱitȱwereȱnotȱthere.ȱButȱbecauseȱthoughtȱisȱreflex,ȱtheȱ minuteȱ thereȱwereȱcreaturesȱwhoȱcouldȱ thinkȱ thatȱmuch,ȱ thereȱwasȱ theȱ possibilityȱthatȱthoughtȱwouldnȇtȱbehaveȱcoherently.ȱ

Now,ȱ Iȇveȱoutlinedȱ toȱyouȱ theȱpossibilityȱofȱconditioningȱ theȱreflexȱ Ȭȱbyȱ repetition,ȱbyȱpowerfulȱemotions,ȱbyȱdefensiveȱmethods,ȱandȱotherȱways.ȱ Andȱwhenȱ itȇsȱ stronglyȱ conditioned,ȱ theȱ reflexȱ couldȱ getȱ stuck.ȱ Thenȱ

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thereȱwouldȱcomeȱaȱtimeȱwhenȱthatȱreflexȱwasȱnoȱlongerȱappropriateȱbutȱ itȱwouldnȇtȱbeȱableȱtoȱchange;ȱtherefore,ȱthatȱwouldȱproduceȱincoherence.ȱ Ifȱsomethingȱchangesȱandȱtheȱreflexȱdoesnȇt,ȱyouȱhaveȱincoherence.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱwouldȱyouȱcallȱdeathȱinȱrelationȱtoȱlife?ȱ

Bohm:ȱFromȱtheȱpointȱofȱviewȱofȱtheȱspecies,ȱdeathȱisȱpartȱofȱthisȱwholeȱ process.ȱ Youȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ speciesȱ haveȱ evolvedȱ inȱ suchȱ aȱwayȱ thatȱ individualȱmembersȱlastȱaȱcertainȱtime.ȱPerhapsȱaȱcertainȱkindȱofȱspeciesȱ wouldȱ beȱ betterȱ ableȱ toȱ surviveȱ ifȱ theȱ individualsȱdidnȇtȱ lastȱ tooȱ long.ȱ Otherȱkindsȱcouldȱlastȱlonger.ȱ

Q:ȱDoesnȇtȱitȱallȱendȱinȱdeath?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱdependsȱonȱwhatȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱȇallȇ.ȱ

O:ȱEventuallyȱȬȱinȱtheȱtermsȱofȱtime.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱtheȱuniverseȱdoesnȇtȱendȱinȱdeath.ȱThisȱpresentȱuniverseȱmayȱ itselfȱ change,ȱ butȱperhapsȱ thereȇsȱ somethingȱ beyondȱ that.ȱ Soȱ itȇsȱmoreȱ accurateȱtoȱsayȱthatȱanyȱparticularȱthingȱwillȱendȱinȱdeath.ȱ

Theȱquestionȱofȱdeathȱ isȱveryȱ longȱ andȱ subtle,ȱ andȱweȱmightȱgetȱ toȱ itȱ more,ȱ later.ȱForȱ theȱmomentȱweȱ canȱ sayȱ thatȱ anyȱmaterialȱ structureȱ isȱ alwaysȱ changingȱandȱ cannotȱ lastȱ forever.ȱWeȱneedȱ toȱaskȱwhetherȱourȱ attitudeȱ towardȱ deathȱ isȱ coherentȱ orȱ not.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ noȱ pointȱ askingȱ whetherȱ deathȱ isȱ coherentȱ orȱ not:ȱ deathȱ isȱ justȱ aȱ fact.ȱHowever,ȱ ourȱ attitudeȱmayȱ notȱ beȱ coherent;ȱmaybeȱ thatȇsȱwhyȱ deathȱ disturbsȱ usȱ soȱ muchȱ

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Q:ȱWhatȱareȱtheȱcriteriaȱforȱcoherence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thereȇsȱ noȱ uniqueȱ criterionȱ forȱ coherence,ȱ butȱ youȱ haveȱ toȱ beȱ sensitiveȱ toȱ incoherence.ȱAndȱasȱweȇveȱ said,ȱ theȱ testȱ forȱ incoherenceȱ isȱ whetherȱyouȇreȱgettingȱtheȱresultsȱyouȱdonȇtȱwant.ȱ

Q:ȱ Thenȱ itȇsȱ incoherentȱ toȱ haveȱ twoȱ thingsȱwhichȱ areȱ opposingȱ eachȱ other?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThat’sȱ right.ȱYouȱ canȱ seeȱ thatȱ asȱ contradictionȱ andȱ conflictȱ andȱ confusion.ȱ Coherenceȱ isȱ sensedȱ asȱ harmony,ȱ order,ȱ beauty,ȱ goodness,ȱ truth,ȱandȱallȱthatȱeverybodyȱwants.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱtheȱincoherenceȱinȱtheȱDNA,ȱandȱareȱweȱbornȱwithȱthat?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNotȱthisȱparticularȱincoherenceȱinȱthought.ȱTheȱpossibilityȱofȱourȱ thinkingȱ isȱsomehowȱ inȱ theȱDNA;ȱasȱ isȱ theȱpossibilityȱ thatȱ theȱ thinkingȱ couldȱgoȱwrong,ȱgivenȱaȱsetȱofȱcircumstancesȱwhichȱwillȱconditionȱ itȱtoȱ goȱ wrong.ȱ Andȱ somehowȱ inȱ theȱ historyȱ ofȱ theȱ humanȱ raceȱ thatȱ hasȱ happened.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱknowȱwhetherȱitȱwasȱinevitable.ȱButȱconsideringȱtheȱ

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natureȱofȱourȱbrain,ȱweȱcanȱseeȱthatȱitȱlooksȱlikelyȱthatȱthisȱsortȱofȱthingȱ couldȱhappen.ȱ

Q:ȱMaybeȱthatȱisȱwhyȱaȱHitlerȱisȱborn.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ itȇsȱalsoȱ theȱsociety.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ inȱ theȱsystemȱasȱaȱ wholeȱwhichȱproducedȱHitler.ȱItȱwasȱnotȱonlyȱhisȱgenes,ȱbutȱalsoȱheȱgrewȱ upȱ inȱ theȱ Austrianȱ societyȱ whichȱ hadȱ someȱ veryȱ nastyȱ incoherentȱ featuresȱatȱ theȱ time.ȱForȱ instance,ȱHitlerȱwasȱbeatenȱmercilesslyȱbyȱhisȱ fatherȱandȱheȱranȱawayȱwhenȱheȱwasȱyoung.ȱAndȱheȱwasȱbeatenȱwhenȱheȱ cameȱback.ȱAlso,ȱmanyȱpeopleȱsayȱ thatȱHitlerȱ thoughtȱheȱhadȱaȱ Jewishȱ ancestor,ȱandȱthisȱdisturbedȱhimȱbecauseȱheȱhatedȱtheȱJewsȱsoȱmuch.ȱAllȱ ofȱthisȱmustȱhaveȱmuddledȱhimȱupȱveryȱbadly.ȱ

Soȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthereȱareȱallȱsortsȱofȱfactorsȱwhichȱaddedȱin.ȱMaybeȱifȱtheyȱ hadnȇtȱ beenȱ thereȱ heȱ wouldȱ haveȱ beenȱ different.ȱWhoȱ knows?ȱ Thatȱ particularȱ geneticȱ structureȱ bornȱ intoȱ thatȱ particularȱ crazyȱ societyȱ producedȱ Hitler.ȱ Perhapsȱ somewhereȱ elseȱ itȱ wouldȱ haveȱ producedȱ somethingȱ else.ȱMaybeȱ inȱ someȱ otherȱ situationȱ heȱwouldȱ haveȱ beenȱ aȱ greatȱgenius,ȱbecauseȱheȱdidȱhaveȱsomeȱkindȱofȱability.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ anyȱ formȱ ofȱviolenceȱ orȱdisturbanceȱwouldȱ beȱ incoherent?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱAccordingȱ toȱ theȱdictionaryȱ ȇviolenceȇȱmeansȱ ȇtheȱundueȱuseȱ ofȱ forceȇ.ȱAndȱthatȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱincoherence.ȱIfȱyouȇreȱusingȱforceȱwhereȱforceȱ isȱnotȱ calledȱ for,ȱ thatȇsȱ incoherent.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ ifȱ aȱproblemȱ arisesȱ inȱ thoughtȱ andȱ youȱ useȱ forceȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ solveȱ it,ȱ thatȱ isȱ uncalledȱ for.ȱ Therefore,ȱ theȱ attemptȱ toȱ dealȱ withȱ socialȱ problemsȱ byȱ forceȱ isȱ incoherent,ȱbecauseȱtheȱproblemsȱallȱariseȱinȱthought.ȱAndȱviolenceȱwillȱ neverȱsolveȱtheȱproblemȱinȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱyouȱthinkȱourȱcosmologyȱisȱcoherent?ȱ

Bohm:ȱProbablyȱnot.ȱNoȱthoughtȱisȱfullyȱcoherent.ȱTheȱnatureȱofȱthoughtȱ isȱsuchȱthatȱitȱisȱpartial.ȱWeȱwillȱdiscussȱthatȱlater.ȱButȱwhenȱweȱdiscoverȱ incoherence,ȱourȱattitudeȱcanȱbeȱeitherȱ toȱmoveȱ towardȱcoherenceȱorȱ toȱ defendȱtheȱincoherence.ȱ

TheȱkindȱofȱincoherenceȱIȇmȱtalkingȱaboutȱisȱtheȱdefenceȱofȱtheȱfirstȱkindȱ ofȱincoherence.ȱSupposeȱyouȱgetȱusedȱtoȱcertainȱreassurancesȱofȱsecurityȱ andȱthoseȱreassurancesȱgiveȱyouȱendorphins.ȱThenȱifȱevidenceȱcomesȱupȱ thatȱyouȇreȱnotȱ soȱ secure,ȱyouȱmayȱ rejectȱ thatȱevidence.ȱNotȱ lookingȱatȱ theȱevidenceȱ isȱevidenceȱofȱ incoherence.ȱAsȱ Iȇveȱpointedȱout,ȱ thereȱ isȱaȱ defenceȱagainstȱseeingȱincoherence;ȱandȱitȱisȱincoherentȱtoȱdefendȱagainstȱ seeingȱ incoherence.ȱNow,ȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱ kindȱ ofȱ incoherenceȱ Iȇmȱ talkingȱ about,ȱbecauseȱyouȱwillȱneverȱgetȱridȱofȱallȱ incoherenceȱ inȱ thought.ȱDoȱ youȱseeȱwhatȱIȱmean?ȱ

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Q:ȱThereȇsȱaȱdefenceȱagainstȱseeingȱincoherenceȱbecauseȱitȱinterruptsȱtheȱ cosmologyȱorȱbeliefȱsystemȱwhichȱweȇveȱallȱbeenȱimprintedȱwith.ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȇsȱmuchȱmoreȱcomplexȱthanȱthat.ȱOurȱthoughtsȱandȱbeliefsȱhaveȱ beenȱconnectedȱtoȱtheȱendorphins,ȱandȱwhenȱweȱquestionȱthemȱweȱstartȱ removingȱ aȱ lotȱofȱ endorphinsȱ fromȱ theȱbrain.ȱAndȱ suddenlyȱ theȱbrainȱ cellsȱareȱ janglingȱterribly,ȱsayingȱ ȇQuick,ȱdoȱsomethingȱtoȱstopȱthisȇ.ȱButȱ theȱthingȱtoȱdoȱisȱtoȱrejectȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱseems,ȱthough,ȱthatȱweȱcanȇtȱlookȱatȱourȱcosmology.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱcanȱlookȱatȱit.ȱButȱthatȇsȱonlyȱpartȱofȱit;ȱitȇsȱnotȱtheȱwholeȱofȱit.ȱ

Youȱcannotȱseparateȱoneȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystemȱfromȱtheȱother.ȱIfȱweȱhadȱourȱ brainsȱworkingȱproperlyȱweȱcouldȱ learnȱsomeȱcosmologyȱandȱsay:ȱ ȇYes,ȱ howȱ interesting.ȱAȱgoodȱ chanceȱ toȱ findȱ aȱnewȱ cosmology.ȇȱButȱ onȱ theȱ otherȱhand,ȱ ifȱweȱgetȱaȱ lotȱofȱ comfortȱoutȱofȱourȱ cosmology,ȱ theȱbrainȱ cellsȱwillȱ suddenlyȱ jangleȱ andȱ eruptȱwhenȱweȱ tryȱ toȱ questionȱ it;ȱ theyȱ wonȇtȱgiveȱusȱaȱchanceȱtoȱlookȱatȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱenvyȱaȱsignȱofȱincoherence?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱEnvyȱisȱtheȱsameȱsortȱofȱthing.ȱItȇsȱaȱcomparisonȱwithȱsomebodyȱ andȱsayingȱthatȱheȱhasȱsomethingȱIȱneedȱorȱwant.ȱAndȱthenȱthatȱmakesȱ youȱ feelȱ uncomfortable.ȱ Perhapsȱ itȱ removesȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ endorphinsȱ fromȱ yourȱbrainȱcells.ȱ Inȱanyȱevent,ȱyouȱgetȱaȱveryȱgreatȱdiscomfortȱandȱsayȱ ȇtheȱwayȱtoȱgetȱbackȱmyȱsenseȱofȱwellȱbeingȱandȱcomfortableȱfeelingȱisȱtoȱ getȱwhatȱheȱhasȇ.ȱTheȱpotentialȱforȱproducingȱenvyȱisȱanȱintegralȱpartȱofȱ theȱbrain,ȱbutȱitȱisnȇtȱnecessaryȱthatȱenvyȱbeȱactualizedȱallȱtheȱtime.ȱIfȱweȱ canȱbeginȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱprocessȱwhichȱ isȱmakingȱ envy,ȱ thenȱ theȱ envyȱ canȱ comeȱtoȱanȱend.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱaboutȱpeopleȱwhoȱseemȱtoȱgloryȱandȱdelightȱinȱmisery?ȱIsȱthatȱ producingȱsomeȱkindȱofȱendorphinsȱalso?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheyȇreȱprobablyȱgettingȱsomeȱkindȱofȱpleasureȱoutȱofȱit,ȱalthoughȱ itȇsȱaȱveryȱtwistedȱkindȱofȱthoughtȱthatȱgivesȱpleasureȱfromȱmisery.ȱButȱ thereȱareȱallȱsortsȱofȱwaysȱtoȱproduceȱendorphins.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱdifferentiatingȱnowȱbetweenȱ feelingȱbadȱ andȱ feelingȱgood,ȱ sayingȱtheyȇreȱnotȱtheȱsame?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱyouȱ canȱ feelȱeitherȱgoodȱorȱbadȱ forȱ twistedȱ reasons.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsȱthereȱaȱdifferenceȱthough?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱtheȱreasonsȱareȱtwistedȱthenȱthereȇsȱnoȱdifference.ȱButȱifȱyouȱfeelȱ genuinelyȱgoodȱthenȱthatȇsȱdifferent.ȱOrȱyouȱmayȱfeelȱbadȱbecauseȱyouȇreȱ notȱphysicallyȱwell,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Iȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱquestionȱofȱmakingȱgoodȱorȱbadȱfeelingȱtheȱkeyȱtoȱyourȱ thoughtȱprocessȱ isȱpartȱofȱ theȱ incoherence.ȱTheȱquestionȱ is:ȱwhatȱaboutȱ coherenceȱinȱtruth?ȱDoesnȇtȱthatȱtakeȱprecedence?ȱ

Q:ȱ Thenȱweȇreȱ notȱ sayingȱ coherenceȱ isȱ goodȱ andȱ incoherenceȱ isȱ bad.ȱ Weȇreȱjustȱsayingȱthatȱisȱwhatȱtheyȱareȱaccordingȱtoȱtheirȱownȱthing?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ secondȱorderȱofȱ incoherenceȱwhichȱ avoidsȱfacingȱtheȱfirstȱorder;ȱthisȱsecondȱorderȱavoidsȱfacingȱevidenceȱofȱ incoherence.ȱAndȱ alsoȱweȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thatȱwillȱ produceȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ consequencesȱwhichȱareȱdestructive.ȱNow,ȱifȱyouȱdonȇtȱmindȱdestructiveȱ consequences,ȱOKȱgoȱahead.ȱ

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Q:ȱTheȱonlyȱreasonȱIȱbringȱthisȱupȱisȱthatȱweȱmightȱgetȱtheȱnotionȱinȱourȱ thinkingȱ thatȱ incoherenceȱ isȱ badȱ andȱ itȱ shouldnȇtȱ happen,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱ thatȱitȇsȱaȱconflictȱwhichȱapparentlyȱwantsȱtoȱresolveȱitself.ȱWeȇreȱnotȱinȱaȱ positionȱtoȱsayȱgoodȱorȱbad.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱmoralsȱhaveȱnoȱplaceȱatȱthisȱstage.ȱWeȇreȱjustȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱaȱ clearȱperceptionȱofȱallȱthis.ȱButȱyouȱwillȱdiscoverȱthat,ȱinȱfact,ȱyouȱdonȇtȱ wantȱ toȱ beȱ constantlyȱ gettingȱ resultsȱwhichȱ youȱ donȇtȱwant.ȱAtȱ someȱ stageȱyouȱwillȱdiscoverȱthatȱ incoherenceȱ isȱproducingȱallȱsortsȱofȱthingsȱ youȱdonȇtȱwant,ȱandȱperhapsȱyouȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱgetȱridȱofȱit,ȱorȱatȱleastȱgetȱ ridȱofȱthatȱsecondȬorderȱkind.ȱ

Q:ȱAȱ goodȱ clueȱwouldȱ beȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ anyȱ formȱ ofȱ violence,ȱ suchȱ asȱ aȱ personȱ defendingȱ himselfȱ orȱ wantingȱ toȱ changeȱ somethingȱ thatȇsȱ frustrating.ȱThatȱwouldȱbeȱaȱclue.ȱThatȱisȱincoherenceȱrightȱthere.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ right.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ clues.ȱ Youȱ haveȱ toȱ becomeȱ sensitiveȱtoȱthoseȱclues.ȱ

Theȱprincipalȱthingȱtoȱnoticeȱisȱthatȱyourȱincoherentȱactionsȱareȱreflexes.ȱ Youȱareȱnotȱdoingȱthemȱonȱpurpose.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱknowȱthatȱyouȱareȱdoingȱ them.ȱItȇsȱtheȱsameȱasȱtheȱwayȱyourȱkneeȱ jerksȱwhenȱyouȱhitȱit,ȱwhetherȱ youȱ likeȱ itȱ orȱ not.ȱ Similarly,ȱ whenȱ somethingȱ touchesȱ thoseȱ reflexȱ conditionings,ȱyouȱjustȱjerk.ȱItȱproducesȱtheȱresultȱwhichȱyouȱdonȇtȱwant.ȱ SoȱconsciouslyȱyouȇreȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱȇAȇ,ȱbutȱtheȱreflexȱjerksȱandȱgivesȱyouȱ

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ȇBȇ.ȱAndȱyouȱ say:ȱ ȇIȱdonȇtȱwantȱ ‘B’.ȇȱYouȱdonȇtȱknowȱwhereȱ itȇsȱ comingȱ from,ȱsoȱyouȱfightȱȇBȇȱwhileȱyouȱkeepȱonȱwithȱtheȱreflexȱthatȱproducesȱit.ȱ Doȱyouȱseeȱthatȱthatȇsȱwhereȱtheȱproblemȱis?ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱweȱ talkingȱaboutȱ theȱpossibilityȱofȱanȱ interval?ȱ Ifȱyouȱattackȱmeȱ negatively,ȱ Iȱcouldȱholdȱmyȱ reactionȱ inȱabeyance.ȱ Isȱ thatȱaȱwayȱ toȱdealȱ withȱthisȱprocess?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Youȱ couldȱ tryȱ that.ȱ Butȱ Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱweȇreȱ engagingȱ inȱ learningȱaboutȱthis.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱknowȱyetȱwhatȱtoȱdoȱwithȱit.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱ interestedȱinȱlearningȱforȱitsȱownȱsake,ȱbecauseȱifȱweȱhaveȱanyȱotherȱsakeȱ itȇsȱgoingȱtoȱenterȱtheȱconditioning.ȱ

Youȱwillȱ find,ȱ nevertheless,ȱ thatȱ youȱdoȱwantȱ toȱ learnȱ forȱ theȱ sakeȱ ofȱ makingȱthingsȱbetter.ȱButȱthenȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱȇwell,ȱthatȱisȱalsoȱanotherȱ reflexȇ.ȱOneȱreflexȱbringsȱupȱanother.ȱSoȱyouȱsay:ȱ ȇIȇveȱunderstoodȱnow;ȱ andȱ Iȇveȱ learnedȱ thatȱ doingȱ thingsȱ forȱ theȱ purposeȱ ofȱmakingȱ thingsȱ betterȱmayȱbeȱaȱtrapȱȬȱitȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱinȱthisȱarea.ȇȱIȇveȱlearnedȱthat,ȱbutȱIȱ stillȱdoȱitȱbecauseȱtheȱreflexesȱstillȱwork.ȱThenȱyouȱneedȱtoȱsayȱȇIȱhaveȱtoȱ learnȱaboutȱthoseȱreflexesȱwhichȱareȱdivertingȱmeȇ.ȱWhatȇsȱcharacteristicȱ ofȱthisȱ isȱthatȱIȱseemȱtoȱunderstandȱthatȱpointȱbutȱtheȱreflexesȱcontinue.ȱ However,ȱ fromȱwhatȱweȱ saidȱyouȱwillȱ seeȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ inevitableȱ thatȱ thatȱ happens,ȱbecauseȱweȱ firstȱunderstandȱ itȱonȱaȱcertainȱabstractȱ levelȱ Ȭȱweȱ havenȇtȱ touchedȱ thoseȱ reflexes.ȱ Itȇsȱ similarȱ toȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ youȱ donȇtȱ changeȱ theȱ kneeȬjerkȱ reflexȱ justȱ byȱ sayingȱ ȇIȱunderstandȱ thatȱmyȱ kneeȱ jerksȱwheneverȱyouȱhitȱitȇ.ȱ

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Howȱ areȱ weȱ goingȱ toȱ changeȱ theȱ reflexes?ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ question.ȱ Understandingȱisȱimportant,ȱbutȱitȱwillȱnotȱbeȱenough.ȱ

Q:ȱ Maybeȱ somethingȱ deeperȱ happensȱ afterȱ thisȱ intellectualȱ understanding.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱmay,ȱbutȱveryȱgenerallyȱpeopleȱ findȱ thatȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱwork.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱweȱhaveȱtoȱgoȱdeeperȱsomehow;ȱsomethingȱmoreȱisȱneeded.ȱWeȇllȱ comeȱtoȱtheȱpossibilityȱlaterȱthatȱsomebodyȱmayȱgetȱanȱunderstandingȱsoȱ deepȱ thatȱ itȱdoesȱ touchȱ theȱ reflexes,ȱandȱ thenȱ theȱ thoughtȱprocessȱwillȱ change.ȱButȱusuallyȱ theȱunderstandingȱ isȱaȱverbalȱunderstandingȱorȱanȱ intellectualȱunderstandingȱorȱanȱimage.ȱThatȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱthatȱitȱhasȱnoȱ value,ȱbutȱitȱmeansȱthatȱitȱisȱstillȱtooȱabstract.ȱ

Q:ȱ Maybeȱ someȱ ȇhomeworkȇȱ isȱ neededȱ forȱ theȱ understandingȱ toȱ goȱ deeper.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱit,ȱsomeȱȇhomeworkȇȱwhichȱwillȱmakeȱitȱtouchȱtheȱreflexes.ȱ Unfortunately,ȱ weȇreȱ oftenȱ taughtȱ inȱ schoolȱ thatȱ whenȱ youȱ haveȱ understoodȱsomethingȱabstractlyȱyouȱhaveȱunderstoodȱitȱcompletely.ȱButȱ evenȱthere,ȱwhenȱtheȱtimeȱcomesȱtoȱputȱwhatȱyouȇveȱlearnedȱintoȱpracticeȱ youȱoftenȱcanȇt.ȱ

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Theȱthingȱweȱneedȱtoȱnoticeȱisȱthatȱwhenȱweȱtryȱthisȱandȱitȱdoesnȇtȱwork,ȱ theȱ firstȱ responseȱmayȱbe;ȱ ȇItȱdoesnȇtȱwork.ȱ Iȱgiveȱup.ȇȱButȱ inȱanythingȱ whereȱ youȱ areȱ seriousȱ youȱ donȇtȱ doȱ that.ȱ Ifȱ youȇreȱ seriousȱ aboutȱ somethingȱyouȱsay:ȱȇWell,ȱOKȱitȱdidnȇtȱwork.ȱWhyȱnot?ȇȱ

Q:ȱIȱwonderȱifȱpartȱofȱourȱdifficultyȱisȱthatȱweȇreȱimbuedȱwithȱtheȱnotionȱ thatȱweȱcanȱunderstand,ȱwhereasȱtheȱunderstandingȱyouȱareȱreferringȱtoȱ mightȱ haveȱ nothingȱ toȱ doȱwithȱ anythingȱ Iȱ knowȱ aboutȱ orȱ canȱ grasp.ȱ Actualȱ understandingȱ mightȱ beȱ somethingȱ operatingȱ inȱ anȱ entirelyȱ differentȱlevelȱandȱoneȱwouldȱneverȱsayȱthatȱoneȱunderstood.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thereȱ isȱ someȱ confusionȱ aboutȱ understanding;ȱ letȇsȱ putȱ itȱ thatȱ way.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱfurtherȱintoȱtheȱquestionȱofȱwhatȱitȱmeans.ȱ

Peopleȱmayȱseeȱthingsȱtheyȱareȱdoingȱwrong,ȱbutȱthenȱwhenȱtheyȇreȱnotȱ payingȱattentionȱtheyȱfindȱthemselvesȱdoingȱthemȱanyway.ȱAndȱIȱthinkȱ theȱreasonȱforȱthatȱisȱsimple:ȱthisȱsystemȱconsistsȱofȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexes,ȱandȱ thatȇsȱexactlyȱwhatȱ reflexesȱdo.ȱForȱ instance,ȱ ifȱyouȱbrushȱyourȱ teethȱ inȱ theȱmorningȱyouȱ followȱaȱ routine.ȱButȱyouȱmayȱveryȱoftenȱ startȱdoingȱ thingsȱasȱaȱroutineȱwhenȱitȱisȱnotȱtheȱrightȱoccasionȱtoȱdoȱso.ȱAndȱifȱyouȱ payȱ attentionȱ youȱmayȱ findȱ itȇsȱ notȱworking,ȱ andȱ youȱ sayȱ ȇhereȇsȱ anȱ incoherenceȇ.ȱYouȱthenȱstop.ȱ

Soȱ Iȱ thinkȱweȱ needȱ toȱ payȱ attention.ȱAndȱ ifȱweȱ thinkȱ ofȱ thoughtsȱ asȱ reflexes,ȱ itȱwillȱhelpȱusȱ toȱunderstandȱ theȱsystemȱbetterȱandȱ itȱwillȱalsoȱ

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beginȱ toȱ pointȱ toȱ anotherȱ level.ȱ Theȱ reflexesȱ areȱ onȱ theȱ levelȱ ofȱ theȱ neurophysiologyȱ andȱ theȱ chemistry.ȱ Theȱ thoughtȱ processȱ isȱ alsoȱ chemistry;ȱ butȱ itȇsȱ aȱ veryȱ muchȱ moreȱ subtleȱ abstractȱ levelȱ Ȭȱ theȱ intellectualȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ thoughtȱ processȱ doesȱ notȱ directlyȱ touchȱ theȱ reflexes.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȱcanȇtȱthinkȱyourȱkneeȱnotȱtoȱjerk.ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱRight.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱareȱstillȱonȱtheȱsophistȱandȱintellectualȱlevel.ȱAttentionȱisȱreallyȱaȱ potentialȱtoȱtakeȱusȱdeeper.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱweȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱtheȱkindȱofȱattentionȱthatȱwillȱtakeȱusȱdeeper.ȱ

Butȱ Iȱdoȱ thinkȱ thatȱ itȇsȱvaluableȱ toȱdrawȱ thisȱ ȇintellectualȱmapȇ.ȱ Inȱ anyȱ caseȱtheȱintellectȱhasȱtoȱbeȱclear,ȱbecauseȱweȱalreadyȱhaveȱaȱlargeȱnumberȱ ofȱ unclearȱ intellectualȱ mapsȱ aboutȱ thisȱ thoughtȱ process.ȱ Theȱ wholeȱ cultureȱ hasȱ givenȱ usȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱmaps.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ itȇsȱ beenȱ saidȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ andȱ feelingȱ andȱ theȱ chemistryȱ areȱ allȱ different.ȱ Thatȇsȱ aȱmapȱ whichȱ isȱmisleading.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱmapsȱ ofȱ thatȱ kindȱwhichȱ areȱ wrong.ȱWhatȱweȱ needȱ toȱ doȱ isȱ toȱ getȱ somewhatȱ freeȱ ofȱ thoseȱ andȱ toȱ developȱaȱmoreȱcoherentȱmap,ȱalthoughȱthatȱaloneȱisȱnotȱgoingȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱIsnȇtȱpartȱofȱtheȱproblemȱtheȱfactȱthatȱtheȱinitialȱreflexȱisȱconditioned?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱthatȇsȱtheȱnatureȱofȱreflexesȱȬȱtoȱgetȱconditionedȱwhenȱyouȱ repeatȱthem.ȱTheyȱwillȱinevitablyȱproduceȱȇcarryȬonȇȱeffects.ȱ

Q:ȱ Supposeȱ youȱ intellectuallyȱ understoodȱ thisȱ process,ȱ butȱ thatȱ initialȱ reflexȱwasȱstillȱsoȱenticingȱthatȱyouȱcanȇtȱdropȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱ theȱproblem.ȱYouȱ canȱ intellectuallyȱunderstandȱ it,ȱ butȱ itȱ stillȱcarriesȱon.ȱTheȱenticementȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱreflex,ȱit’sȱtheȱchemicalȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱ reflex.ȱTheȱ reflexȱproducesȱ endorphinsȱ orȱ someȱ otherȱ chemical,ȱ whichȱwillȱproduceȱaȱsenseȱofȱenticement.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱseeingȱdeeperȱisȱaȱmatterȱofȱperspective?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȱthinkȱthatȱitȇsȱaȱbitȱmoreȱthanȱthat.ȱLetȇsȱtryȱtoȱgoȱintoȱitȱasȱweȱgoȱ along.ȱ

Weȱwillȱhaveȱaȱbreakȱnow.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȇdȱ likeȱ toȱ extendȱ thisȱwholeȱ ideaȱ aȱ littleȱ further.ȱWeȱ inevitablyȱ haveȱaȱkindȱofȱthoughtȱaboutȱthought,ȱanȱintellectualȱmapȱofȱtheȱthoughtȱ processȱwhichȱisȱsortȱofȱendemic;ȱȱitȇsȱspreadȱallȱthroughȱourȱcultureȱȬȱweȱ pickȱitȱupȱhereȱandȱthere.ȱForȱinstance,ȱsayingȱȇthinkȱpositivelyȇȱisȱaȱkindȱ

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ofȱ intellectualȱ ideaȱ aboutȱ thought,ȱ implyingȱ thatȱ youȱ shouldȱ controlȱ thoughtȱ inȱ orderȱ toȱ dealȱwithȱ depression.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ ideasȱ circulatingȱaround.ȱ

Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱweȱ needȱ toȱ presentȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱmapȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ whichȱmayȱ beȱmoreȱ coherentȱ thanȱ theȱ unspokenȱmapȱ implicitȱ inȱ ourȱ culture,ȱbecauseȱ ifȱweȱareȱbeingȱguidedȱbyȱ incoherentȱ ideasȱwhichȱareȱ alreadyȱpartȱofȱourȱ reflexȱ systemȱweȱwillȱgoȱwrong.ȱAndȱweȱ canȇtȱ justȱ chooseȱnotȱtoȱgoȱwrong,ȱbecauseȱthoseȱincoherentȱideasȱareȱalreadyȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱ reflexȱsystem.ȱTherefore,ȱ theȱ firstȱstepȱ isȱatȱ leastȱ toȱ lookȱatȱsomeȱ otherȱideasȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱmoreȱcoherent.ȱLaterȱweȇllȱhaveȱtoȱaskȱwhetherȱ anythingȱcanȱreallyȱtouchȱtheȱreflexes,ȱbecauseȱifȱthereȱisȱnoȱwayȱtoȱaffectȱ themȱthenȱweȇreȱstuck.ȱ

Now,ȱIȱwantȱtoȱaddȱsomethingȱtoȱthisȱnotionȱofȱreflex.ȱOneȱofȱtheȱmostȱ powerfulȱ thoughtsȱpeopleȱhaveȱ isȱ theȱ thoughtȱ ofȱnecessity.ȱ Itȱ isȱmuchȱ moreȱ thanȱ aȱ thought.ȱ Theȱ wordȱ ȇnecessaryȇȱ meansȱ ȇitȱ cannotȱ beȱ otherwiseȇ,ȱ andȱ theȱ Latinȱ rootȱ meansȱ ȇdonȇtȱ yieldȇ.ȱ Itȱ suggestsȱ theȱ emotionalȬphysicalȱ stanceȱofȱ resisting,ȱholding.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱotherȱ sideȱofȱ theȱreflexȱsystem:ȱwhenȱyouȱsayȱȇitȱcannotȱbeȱotherwiseȇ,ȱinȱeffectȱyouȇreȱ saying:ȱ

ȇItȱhasȱgotȱ toȱbeȱ thisȱway.ȱ Iȱhaveȱ toȱkeepȱ itȱ thisȱwayȇ.ȱYouȱhaveȱaȱhold.ȱ Somethingȱthatȱisȱnecessaryȱisȱaȱveryȱpowerfulȱforceȱwhichȱyouȱcanȇtȱturnȱ aside.ȱYetȱ youȱmayȱ sayȱ ȇIȱhaveȱ toȱ turnȱ itȱ asideȇ.ȱThusȱweȱ establishȱ anȱ orderȱofȱnecessity,ȱsayingȱȇthisȱturnsȱasideȱforȱthat,ȱandȱthisȱforȱthatȇ.ȱ

Thisȱnotionȱofȱnecessityȱisȱcrucialȱtoȱourȱwholeȱorderingȱofȱthought;ȱasȱisȱ itsȱ opposite,ȱwhichȱ isȱ contingency.ȱ ȇContingencyȇȱmeansȱ ȇwhatȱ canȱ beȱ otherwiseȇ.ȱ Ifȱ somethingȱ canȱ beȱ otherwise,ȱ it’sȱ meaningfulȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ changeȱ it.ȱIfȱ itȱcannotȱbeȱotherwise,ȱthenȱthereȇsȱnoȱuseȱtrying.ȱThisȱwillȱ

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haveȱ aȱ tremendousȱ effect.ȱ Ifȱ youȱ thinkȱ somethingȱ isȱ impossibleȱ toȱdo,ȱ youȱareȱbringingȱinȱnecessityȱbyȱsayingȱthatȱitȱnecessarilyȱcanȇtȱbeȱdone.ȱ Therefore,ȱyouȱcanȇtȱdoȱ itȱandȱyouȱwillȱnotȱ try.ȱSoȱ theȱassumptionȱ thatȱ somethingȱ isȱ impossibleȱmayȱwellȱ trapȱyouȱ intoȱmakingȱ itȱ impossible.ȱ Onȱtheȱotherȱhand,ȱyouȱmayȱassumeȱsomethingȱisȱpossibleȱwhichȱisȱnot,ȱ andȱjustȱbatterȱyourȱheadȱonȱaȱstoneȱwall.ȱ

Weȱhaveȱ toȱgetȱ straightȱonȱwhatȱ isȱnecessityȱandȱwhatȱ isȱ contingency.ȱ Andȱinȱeachȱsituationȱthisȱisȱwhatȱyouȇreȱdoingȱallȱtheȱtime.ȱYouȇreȱtryingȱ toȱassessȱ theȱnecessityȱandȱcontingency.ȱWeȱmayȱseeȱanȱobjectȱandȱsayȱ ȇthisȱwillȱnotȱ turnȱ asideȱ fromȱmyȱhandȇ.ȱ Iȱdonȇtȱ expectȱmyȱhandȱ toȱgoȱ throughȱ theȱ object;ȱ ifȱ itȱ wentȱ throughȱ Iȇdȱ beȱ veryȱ surprised.ȱ Asȱ anȱ illustration,ȱ thereȱwasȱ anȱ exhibitionȱ ofȱ holographyȱwhichȱ projectedȱ aȱ veryȱ realisticȱ imageȱ ofȱ aȱ ship,ȱ andȱ twoȱpeopleȱ cameȱ inȱwhoȱ evidentlyȱ didnȇtȱknowȱanythingȱaboutȱ it.ȱOneȱwomanȱ cameȱoverȱandȱdecidedȱ toȱ takeȱ holdȱ ofȱ theȱ shipȱ andȱ herȱ handȱ wentȱ throughȱ it.ȱ Sheȱ didnȇtȱ understandȱandȱthereȱwasȱaȱlookȱofȱhorrorȱonȱherȱface.ȱAndȱsheȱsaidȱtoȱ herȱcompanionȱȇletȇsȱgetȱoutȱofȱhereȇ.ȱ

Weȱcountȱonȱtheȱnotionȱofȱnecessity,ȱsaying:ȱȇThisȱwillȱstandȱup.ȱThisȱwillȱ beȱ stable.ȱ Thisȱ cannotȱ beȱ turnedȱ aside.ȇȱWeȱ countȱ onȱ theȱ earthȱ beingȱ somethingȱ thatȱwonȇtȱ turnȱ aside.ȱAndȱwhenȱ itȱ shakesȱweȱ findȱ itȱ veryȱ disturbingȱȬȱpsychologicallyȱasȱwellȱasȱphysically.ȱ

Theȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ notionȱ ofȱ necessityȱ andȱ contingencyȱ isȱ alwaysȱ operating.ȱEverybodyȱisȱusingȱitȱallȱtheȱtimeȱwithoutȱevenȱthinkingȱaboutȱ doingȱso;ȱitȱbecomesȱpartȱofȱourȱreflexes.ȱ

ȱȱ

Andȱ thisȱ isȱ important,ȱ becauseȱ thisȱ alsoȱ isȱ connectedȱwithȱ ourȱ ideaȱ ofȱ realityȱ Ȭȱ thingsȱwhichȱareȱ realȱwonȇtȱbeȱ turnedȱaside.ȱTheyȱwillȱ sortȱofȱ

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resist;ȱtheyȇreȱpushing,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱNow,ȱthereȱareȱvariousȱwaysȱofȱtestingȱ forȱ reality.ȱThingsȱweȱ considerȱ realȱ areȱ stable,ȱ theyȱ resist,ȱ theyȱhaveȱ aȱ kindȱofȱinternalȱnecessityȱthatȱholds.ȱTheȱwholeȱideaȱofȱrealityȱisȱboundȱ togetherȱwithȱ theȱconceptȱofȱnecessity,ȱasȱ inȱ theȱexampleȱ Iȱ justȱgave;ȱ ifȱ yourȱhandȱgoesȱthroughȱtheȱshipȱitȇsȱaȱsignȱthatȱitȱisȱnotȱreal.ȱ

Theȱnotionȱofȱrealityȱisȱalsoȱclearlyȱveryȱimportantȱinȱourȱwholeȱpsychicȱ makeȬup.ȱ Theȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ beingȱ realȱ orȱ unrealȱ orȱ illusoryȱ isȱ crucial.ȱSoȱtheȱnotionȱofȱnecessityȱcreatesȱaȱpowerfulȱreflexȱȬȱȇitȱreallyȱhasȱ toȱbeȱthatȱwayȇ.ȱIfȱweȱnotȱonlyȱaddȱemotionȱandȱrepetitionȱtoȱtheȱreflex,ȱ butȱalsoȱaddȱtheȱnotionȱofȱnecessity,ȱtheȱreflexȱbecomesȱveryȱpowerfulȱȬȱ especiallyȱifȱweȱsayȱ ȇitȇsȱalwaysȱnecessaryȇ.ȱSomethingȱmayȱbeȱnecessaryȱ someȱofȱtheȱtime,ȱbutȱthenȱitȱmayȱhaveȱtoȱturnȱasideȱatȱanotherȱtime.ȱButȱ ifȱweȱsayȱ ȇitȇsȱalwaysȱnecessaryȇ,ȱthatȱmeansȱitȱisȱabsolutelyȱnecessary,ȱitȱ cannotȱ turnȱ aside.ȱForȱ instance,ȱ ifȱweȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱnationȱ isȱ sovereign,ȱ thenȱthatȱbecomesȱabsoluteȱnecessityȱandȱthereȇsȱnoȱwayȱofȱturningȱthatȱ aside.ȱAndȱifȱtwoȱnationsȱassertȱtheirȱsovereigntyȱinȱtheȱsameȱplace,ȱwhatȱ canȱ theyȱdo?ȱThereȱ isȱnoȱwayȱ toȱ turnȱaside,ȱandȱ thereforeȱ theyȱhaveȱ toȱ fight.ȱOrȱ twoȱ religionsȱ inȱ theȱ sameȱwayȱ—ȱ ȇGodȱ isȱ absoluteȱnecessityȇ,ȱ andȱȇGodȱhasȱgotȱtoȱbeȱthisȱwayȱandȱnotȱthatȱwayȇ.ȱ

Thereȱareȱsimilarȱquestionsȱallȱthroughȱlife.ȱWhereverȱpeopleȱareȱfindingȱ itȱ hardȱ toȱ getȱ alongȱ youȱ willȱ discoverȱ thatȱ theyȱ haveȱ differentȱ assumptionsȱasȱtoȱwhatȱisȱnecessaryȱorȱabsolutelyȱnecessary.ȱIfȱyouȱlookȱ atȱitȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthatȇsȱwhatȱtheyȇreȱfightingȱabout.ȱOneȱfeelsȱthisȱisȱ necessaryȱandȱtheȱotherȱthat,ȱandȱtheyȱcannotȱturnȱaside.ȱNegotiationȱisȱ anȱattemptȱ toȱmakeȱpeopleȱ turnȱasideȱ forȱeachȱotherȱandȱ toȱadjustȱandȱ adapt,ȱwhichȱadmitsȱthatȱthereȱisȱsomeȱcontingencyȱinȱwhatȱtheyȱthoughtȱ wasȱnecessary.ȱ

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Theȱquestionȱofȱdialogue,ȱwhichȱweȇreȱgoingȱtoȱgetȱinto,ȱisȱinvolvedȱveryȱ muchȱ inȱwhatȱyouȱassumeȱ toȱbeȱnecessary.ȱTheȱassumptionsȱofȱwhatȱ isȱ necessaryȱareȱwhatȱpreventȱdialogue.ȱ

Theyȱ createȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ toȱ defendȱwithȱ absoluteȱ force.ȱ Theyȱ giveȱ powerȱtoȱtheȱreflex.ȱ

TheȱinstinctȱofȱselfȬpreservationȱisȱgenerallyȱregardedȱasȱaȱveryȱpowerfulȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ builtȱ inȱ byȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ genes,ȱ butȱ theȱ notionȱ ofȱ absoluteȱ necessityȱwillȱoverrideȱ thatȱ everyȱ time.ȱYouȱmayȱ sayȱ ȇmyȱ instinctȱ isȱ toȱ preserveȱlifeȇ.ȱButȱifȱtheȱcountryȱsaysȱ ȇitȇsȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱtoȱriskȱitȇ,ȱ thenȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱ riskȱ it.ȱMostȱpeopleȱwillȱ feelȱ thatȱway.ȱOrȱ ifȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇGodȱ demandsȱ itȇ,ȱ thenȱ theȱ demandsȱ ofȱ Godȱ mayȱ overrideȱ allȱ theȱ instincts.ȱOrȱwhateverȱ itȱ is.ȱYourȱambitionȱmayȱoverrideȱtheȱinstincts,ȱ ifȱ itȇsȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱtoȱachieveȱyourȱambition.ȱ

Thereȇsȱaȱtremendousȱforceȱinȱthis.ȱThisȱnotionȱofȱnecessityȱisȱnotȱmerelyȱ intellectual.ȱ Itȱ involvesȱ everything.ȱ Itȱ involvesȱ theȱ chemistry,ȱ whichȱ meansȱthatȱallȱtheȱadrenalinȱyouȱneedȱwillȱbeȱreleasedȱwhenȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱ defendȱyourȱassumptionsȱofȱnecessity.ȱWhateverȱisȱneededȱwillȱbeȱmadeȱ available.ȱAndȱthenȱtoo,ȱthisȱmayȱhaveȱaȱveryȱvaluableȱsideȱtoȱit.ȱIfȱyouȱ areȱeverȱgoingȱ toȱaccomplishȱanything,ȱyouȱneedȱsomeȱofȱ thatȱsenseȱofȱ necessity.ȱIfȱyouȱdonȇtȱthinkȱsomethingȱisȱveryȱnecessaryȱyouȱwonȇtȱhaveȱ muchȱ energyȱ toȱ doȱ it.ȱYouȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ nobodyȱ everȱwentȱ throughȱ difficultiesȱtoȱaccomplishȱanythingȱwithoutȱfeelingȱthatȱitȱwasȱnecessary.ȱ Soȱ ifȱyouȱ feelȱ thatȱgoingȱ intoȱ thoughtȱ isȱnecessaryȱ thenȱperhapsȱ itȱwillȱ continueȱ againstȱ theȱ difficulty.ȱOnȱ theȱ otherȱ hand,ȱ youȱmayȱ feelȱ thatȱ someȱcrazyȱincoherentȱthingȱisȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱandȱgoȱonȱwithȱthat.ȱ

Therefore,ȱ itȇsȱ importantȱ toȱpayȱattentionȱ toȱ theseȱnotionsȱofȱnecessityȱ Ȭȱ whatȱ isȱassumedȱ toȱbeȱnecessaryȱandȱabsolutelyȱ so,ȱandȱhowȱ itȱmovesȱ

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you.ȱ Youȱ beginȱ toȱ noticeȱ that.ȱ Youȱ getȱ thatȱ feelingȱ ofȱ urge.ȱ Youȇreȱ impelled;ȱyouȱhaveȱ anȱ impulseȱ toȱ act.ȱ ȇImpelledȇȱmeansȱ ȇbeingȱpushedȱ fromȱwithinȇ.ȱSometimesȱyouȱareȱbeingȱcompelled,ȱwhichȱisȱaȱbitȱstrongerȱ Ȭȱaȱcompulsiveȱurge.ȱOrȱpropelled.ȱOrȱperhapsȱevenȱrepelled.ȱButȱitȇsȱallȱ theȱsameȱprocessȱȬȱitȇsȱnecessityȱatȱwork,ȱgivingȱaȱpush.ȱ

Thusȱyouȱ feelȱ anȱ impulseȱ andȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇthatȇsȱme,ȱhavingȱ anȱ impulseȇ.ȱ Youȱdonȇtȱ seeȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱaȱ systemȱ involvingȱ theȱ thoughtȱbeneathȱ theȱ impulse.ȱAndȱyourȱintentionsȱmayȱariseȱinȱthatȱsystem.ȱThusȱresearchersȱ haveȱ madeȱ electricalȱ measurementsȱ andȱ shownȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ someȱ electrochemicalȱ processȱ inȱ theȱ brainȱ thatȱ precedesȱ yourȱ consciousȱ intention.ȱ

Theȱimpulseȱisȱcomingȱfromȱtheȱwholeȱsystem.ȱItȇsȱbuiltȱup.ȱ

Now,ȱitȇsȱimportantȱtoȱseeȱthatȱthisȱisȱallȱconnected,ȱbecauseȱthisȱisȱnotȱaȱ placeȱwhereȱitȇsȱcorrectȱtoȱbreakȱupȱthingsȱandȱtoȱseparateȱthem.ȱInȱsomeȱ casesȱ itȱ isȱ correctȱ toȱ separateȱ thingsȱ Ȭȱ suchȱ asȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ tableȱ isȱ separateȱ fromȱ theȱ chairȱ becauseȱ oneȱ canȱmoveȱ independentlyȱ ofȱ theȱ other.ȱButȱwhenȱthingsȱareȱtightlyȱconnectedȱthenȱweȱshouldnȇtȱseparateȱ themȱ inȱ ourȱminds.ȱWeȱmayȱdistinguishȱ certainȱ thingsȱ forȱ theȱ sakeȱ ofȱ convenience.ȱTheȱwordȱȇdistinguishȇȱmeansȱȇtoȱmarkȱapartȇ.ȱAȱdistinctionȱ isȱmerelyȱaȱmarkȱwhichȱisȱmadeȱforȱconvenience;ȱitȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱthatȱtheȱ thingȱ isȱ broken.ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱ aȱ dottedȱ line,ȱ whereasȱ whenȱ weȱ representȱ somethingȱasȱdividedȱ itȇsȱaȱsolidȱ line.ȱSoȱ inȱourȱmindsȱweȱshouldȱdrawȱ dottedȱlinesȱbetweenȱthinkingȱandȱfeelingȱandȱchemistryȱandȱsoȱon,ȱnotȱ solidȱ lines.ȱ Likewise,ȱ itȱ wouldȱ beȱ goodȱ toȱ drawȱ onlyȱ aȱ dottedȱ lineȱ betweenȱcountriesȱasȱwellȱȬȱbecauseȱactuallyȱit’sȱaȱdistinction,ȱratherȱthanȱ aȱdivisionȱofȱtwoȱdifferentȱthingsȱwhichȱareȱindependent.ȱ

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Weȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱthinkȱofȱthisȱclearly;ȱevenȱthough,ȱasȱIȱsaid,ȱthatȱbyȱ itselfȱwonȇtȱreallyȱchangeȱtheȱreflexes.ȱButȱ ifȱweȱdonȇtȱ thinkȱofȱ itȱclearlyȱ thenȱ allȱ ourȱ attemptsȱ toȱ getȱ intoȱ thisȱ willȱ goȱ wrong.ȱ Clearȱ thinkingȱ impliesȱ thatȱweȱareȱ inȱsomeȱwayȱawakenedȱaȱ littleȱbit.ȱPerhapsȱ thereȱ isȱ somethingȱ beyondȱ theȱ reflexȱ whichȱ isȱ atȱ workȱ Ȭȱ inȱ otherȱ words,ȱ somethingȱunconditioned.ȱ

Theȱ questionȱ isȱ really:ȱ isȱ thereȱ theȱ unconditioned?ȱ Ifȱ everythingȱ isȱ conditioned,ȱ thenȱ thereȇsȱ noȱ wayȱ out.ȱ Butȱ theȱ veryȱ factȱ thatȱ weȱ areȱ sometimesȱ ableȱ toȱ seeȱ newȱ thingsȱ wouldȱ suggestȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ unconditioned.ȱ Maybeȱ theȱ deeperȱ materialȱ structureȱ ofȱ theȱ brainȱ isȱ unconditioned,ȱ orȱ maybeȱ beyond.ȱWeȇllȱ discussȱ thatȱ later.ȱ Itȱ doesnȇtȱ matterȱ atȱ thisȱ stageȱwhereȱ itȱ is,ȱ asȱ longȱ asȱ itȱ couldȱ act.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ unconditioned,ȱwhichȱcouldȱbeȱtheȱmovementȱofȱintelligence,ȱthenȱthereȱ isȱsomeȱpossibilityȱofȱgettingȱintoȱthis.ȱ

Weȱareȱsayingȱthat,ȱperhapsȱunbeknownstȱtoȱus,ȱtheȱunconditionedȱmayȱ haveȱ operatedȱ aȱ little.ȱWeȇreȱnotȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱ conditioningȱ isȱ absolutelyȱsolidȱandȱ frozen,ȱallȱandȱ forever;ȱ thatȇsȱ theȱpoint.ȱAndȱ ifȱweȱ areȱgoingȱtoȱdoȱthisȱsortȱofȱthingȱthatȱweȇreȱdoing,ȱtoȱbeȱcoherentȱweȱatȱ leastȱhaveȱ toȱsupposeȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱbeȱ theȱunconditioned.ȱ Ifȱweȱdonȇtȱ supposeȱ that,ȱ itȱmayȱbeȱ thenȱ thatȱweȱareȱ totallyȱ incoherentȱ inȱourȱveryȱ attemptȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱIfȱweȱsayȱthatȱthereȱcannotȱbeȱtheȱunconditioned,ȱthenȱitȱ wouldȱbeȱ foolishȱ forȱusȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱdoȱanythingȱwithȱ theȱconditioning.ȱ Isȱ thatȱclear?ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱweȱmadeȱsuchȱaȱstatement,ȱweȱwouldȱhaveȱassumedȱaȱtremendousȱ positionȱofȱknowing.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Ifȱweȱonceȱassumeȱ thatȱ thereȱcannotȱbeȱ theȱunconditioned,ȱ thenȱ weȇreȱ stuck.ȱ Onȱ theȱ otherȱ hand,ȱ ifȱ weȱ assumeȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ unconditioned,ȱ againȱweȱ areȱ goingȱ toȱ beȱ stuckȱ Ȭȱweȱwillȱ produceȱ anȱ imageȱofȱ theȱunconditionedȱ inȱ theȱsystemȱofȱconditioning,ȱandȱmistakeȱ theȱ imageȱ forȱ theȱunconditioned.ȱTherefore,ȱ letȇsȱ sayȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱbeȱ theȱunconditioned.ȱWeȱleaveȱroomȱforȱthat.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱleaveȱroomȱinȱourȱ thoughtȱforȱpossibilities.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldnȇtȱweȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱmore,ȱinȱtheȱsenseȱthatȱthoughtȱcouldȱneverȱ knowȱthatȱthereȱisȱonlyȱtheȱconditioned?ȱItȱwouldȱbeȱwayȱpastȱitsȱboundsȱ forȱthoughtȱtoȱmakeȱsuchȱaȱstatement.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȇsȱincoherentȱforȱthoughtȱtoȱmakeȱthatȱstatement.ȱItȇsȱfairlyȱ evidentȱthatȱthoughtȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱthatȱmuch.ȱIfȱthoughtȱmerelyȱsticksȱtoȱ whatȱitȱknows,ȱitȱhasȱnoȱwayȱofȱsayingȱthereȱisȱnoȱunconditioned,ȱnorȱcanȱ itȱsafelyȱsayȱthereȱisȱtheȱunconditioned.ȱNowȱthatȱmeansȱwhat?ȱThatȱweȱ donȇtȱknow.ȱButȱweȱmayȱsayȱweȱsuspectȱthatȱthereȱisȱtheȱunconditionedȱȬȱ weȱhaveȱseenȱevidenceȱthatȱthereȱmayȱbe.ȱWeȱcanȱgoȱintoȱthisȱmore,ȱlater.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱIsȱevidenceȱofȱtheȱunconditionedȱsometimesȱseenȱinȱcreativity?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱsomeȱevidence.ȱYouȱcouldȱsayȱtheȱfactȱofȱcreativityȱsuggestsȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ unconditioned.ȱ Butȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ proveȱ it,ȱ becauseȱ someȱ peopleȱ inȱ artificialȱ intelligenceȱ wouldȱ sayȱ thatȱ whatȱ youȱ considerȱ creativityȱisȱmerelyȱaȱmuchȱdeeperȱformȱofȱconditioningȱwhichȱyouȱdonȇtȱ see.ȱ

Q:ȱEvenȱthatȱwouldȱbeȱbetterȱthanȱtheȱconditioningȱweȱhaveȱnow.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱthatȱwouldȱjustȱamountȱtoȱexpandingȱourȱlimitations.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱmightȱ stillȱgetȱ incoherence.ȱAndȱ incoherenceȱwithȱcreativityȱ hasȱbecomeȱmoreȱdangerousȱthanȱwithoutȱit.ȱWithoutȱhavingȱcreatedȱallȱ theseȱmodernȱscientificȱthings,ȱweȱmightȱbeȱmuchȱsafer.ȱThus,ȱifȱweȱwereȱ stillȱ atȱ theȱ StoneȱAgeȱ levelȱweȱ couldȱ goȱ onȱwithȱ ourȱ incoherence.ȱWeȱ wouldȱbeȱquiteȱsafeȱwithȱourȱincoherence;ȱweȱwouldnȇtȱhaveȱtheȱmeansȱ ofȱdoingȱveryȱmuch.ȱWeȱ couldȱprobablyȱ surviveȱ indefinitely.ȱActually,ȱ theȱevidenceȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱStoneȱAgeȱpeopleȱwereȱmoreȱcoherentȱ thanȱweȱ areȱanyway.ȱAtȱleastȱtheirȱattitudeȱtoȱnatureȱwasȱmoreȱcoherent.ȱButȱevenȱ ifȱ theyȱ wereȱ asȱ incoherentȱ asȱ weȱ areȱ theyȱ couldȱ probablyȱ survive,ȱ becauseȱtheyȱcouldȱnotȱdoȱthatȱmuchȱdamage.ȱ

Butȱourȱ creativeȱ technologyȱ challengesȱus.ȱWeȱhaveȱ toȱbeȱ coherent.ȱAtȱ leastȱweȱhaveȱ toȱmoveȱ towardsȱ coherence,ȱorȱ elseȱallȱ sortsȱofȱdisastersȱ mayȱoccur.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Canȱ Iȱ workȱ onȱ myȱ conditioningȱ intellectuallyȱ byȱ realizing,ȱ forȱ instance,ȱthatȱIȱdonȇtȱfeelȱgoodȱwhenȱsomebodyȱyellsȱatȱme?ȱCanȱIȱlookȱatȱ thatȱwithoutȱhavingȱexpectationsȱofȱ theȱendȱresult,ȱofȱwhatȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱ likeȱifȱIȱdidnȇtȱhaveȱthisȱconditioning,ȱandȱjustȱletȱitȱbe?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱwhatȱhappensȱthen?ȱSupposeȱyouȱsayȱȇIȱdonȇtȱfeelȱgoodȱwhenȱ somebodyȱyellsȱatȱmeȇ.ȱThenȱyouȱaskȱȇwhyȱnot?ȇ.ȱWhatȇsȱtheȱanswer?ȱ

Q:ȱȇIȱhaveȱtoȱlookȱwithinȱtoȱseeȱifȱthereȇsȱanyȱconnectionȱofȱsimilarȱgroupsȱ ofȱmemories,ȱthatȱitȇsȱnotȱreallyȱthatȱparticularȱpersonȱwhoȇsȱyellingȱbutȱ anyȱpersonȱwhoȇsȱyelling.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱhaveȱaȱgeneralȱassumptionȱthere,ȱdonȇtȱyou?ȱThatȱyouȱareȱtheȱ sortȱofȱpersonȱwhoȱshouldȱnotȱbeȱyelledȱat,ȱthatȱitȇsȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱ thatȱnobodyȱshouldȱyellȱatȱyou.ȱThatȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱtheȱassumption.ȱIȱthinkȱ itȇsȱworthȱ fishingȱ aroundȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱputȱ theȱ assumptionȱ intoȱwords.ȱ Itȇsȱ importantȱtoȱgetȱitȱintoȱwords,ȱbecauseȱotherwiseȱyouȱmissȱitȱȬȱtheȱbrainȱ isȱsetȱupȱtoȱhideȱtheȱassumption.ȱ

Q:ȱMyȱunderstandingȱisȱthatȱtheyȱhaveȱaȱrightȱtoȱyell.ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱnotȱatȱyou.ȱ

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Q:ȱNo,ȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱmatter.ȱWhatȱmattersȱisȱwhyȱIȱamȱreactingȱtoȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱLetȇsȱsayȱthatȱbeforeȱyouȱgotȱthatȱfarȱtheȱfirstȱthingȱyouȱfoundȱwasȱ thatȱyouȱwereȱdisturbedȱbyȱsomebodyȱyellingȱatȱyou.ȱAndȱnowȱsayȱwhy.ȱ

Q:ȱBecauseȱitȱdidnȇtȱmakeȱmeȱfeelȱgood.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱwhyȱisȱthat?ȱTheȱfeelingsȱareȱboundȱupȱwithȱtheȱthoughtsȱ—ȱ weȱjustȱsaidȱitȇsȱallȱoneȱsystem.ȱSoȱmaybeȱthereȱisȱaȱthoughtȱthatȇsȱbehindȱ it.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱthoughtȱisȱȇIȇmȱnotȱgoodȇ.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱwhyȱisȱthat?ȱIfȱsomebodyȱyells,ȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱproveȱyouȇreȱnotȱ good.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱbelieveȱthatȱbecauseȱofȱmyȱconditioning.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thenȱ youȱ haveȱ anotherȱ thoughtȱ furtherȱ backȱ Ȭȱ whichȱ youȱ mayȱ haveȱ forgottenȱ fromȱ yourȱ parentsȱ Ȭwhichȱ saysȱ thatȱ wheneverȱ theyȱ thoughtȱ youȱ wereȱ noȱ goodȱ theyȱ yelledȱ atȱ you.ȱ

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Accordinglyȱyouȱhaveȱanȱassumptionȱ inȱ there,ȱ thatȱ ȇwheneverȱanybodyȱ yellsȱatȱmeȱitȱmeansȱthatȱIȇmȱnoȱgoodȇ.ȱAndȱwheneverȱIȇmȱnoȱgoodȱIȱfeelȱ uncomfortable.ȱ Thatȇsȱ anotherȱ reflex.ȱ Thoseȱ twoȱ workȱ togetherȱ asȱ aȱ reflex:ȱ wheneverȱ anybodyȱ yellsȱ atȱ meȱ itȱ meansȱ Iȇmȱ noȱ good,ȱ andȱ wheneverȱ Iȇmȱ noȱ goodȱ itȱ meansȱ Iȱ canȇtȱ feelȱ good.ȱ Now,ȱ thoseȱ twoȱ thoughtsȱareȱworkingȱinȱtheȱchemistry.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱIȱdonȇtȱlikeȱwhatȱitȱdoesȱtoȱme.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱdonȇtȱ likeȱ thatȱchemicalȱeffect;ȱ itȇsȱveryȱdisturbing.ȱ Itȱmakesȱ senseȱthatȱthatȱchemicalȱisȱdisturbing.ȱIȱmean,ȱweȱcanȇtȱcriticizeȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱIȇmȱaskingȱ ifȱIȱcanȱhaveȱaȱperceptionȱthatȱcanȱmakeȱtheȱneedleȱ jumpȱ theȱ grooveȱ inȱ myȱ memoryȱ intoȱ aȱ spaceȱ whereȱ thatȱ programmingȱ isȱ cancelled.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ thatȇsȱwhatȱweȇreȱ exploring:ȱ canȱ itȱ beȱ done?ȱ Butȱwhatȇsȱ impliedȱisȱthatȱthereȱhasȱtoȱbeȱanȱelectrochemicalȱchangeȱinȱtheȱbrain.ȱToȱ reachȱanȱ intellectualȱconclusionȱ isȱnotȱenough.ȱWeȱhaveȱaȱcertainȱsetȱofȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱhaveȱbegunȱ toȱpointȱ toȱ theȱproblem.ȱAndȱweȱhaveȱ thatȱ sameȱproblemȱ asȱ beforeȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ thatȱ aloneȱ isȱ notȱ enoughȱ toȱ changeȱ theȱ reflex.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Iȱ realizeȱnowȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ theȱchemicalȱpartȱ ratherȱ thanȱ theȱ intellectualȱ partȱthatȱmakesȱmeȱfeelȱuncomfortable.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱ change.ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱyellsȱatȱyou,ȱyouȱmightȱ stillȱfeelȱuncomfortable.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱmyȱexperienceȱhasȱbeenȱthatȱbyȱrealizingȱit,ȱIȇmȱlettingȱtheȱyellingȱ comeȱ through.ȱ Iȇmȱ feelingȱ itȱ inȱmyȱ body,ȱ notȱ resistingȱ it.ȱAndȱ byȱ notȱ resistingȱit,ȱitȱdesensitizesȱtheȱoldȱmisfiringȱofȱtheȱsynapses,ȱorȱwhatever,ȱ andȱitȱsortȱofȱreversesȱtheȱprocessȱofȱwhatȱoriginallyȱmadeȱmeȱfeelȱbad.ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱmay.ȱYouȱcanȱexploreȱthat.ȱIfȱyouȱcanȱstayȱwithȱthat,ȱitȱmayȱwellȱ doȱsomethingȱlikeȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱsupposeȱ thatȱhappens,ȱandȱ Iȱunderstandȱnotȱonlyȱ intellectuallyȱ butȱ alsoȱphysically.ȱThenȱ aȱ changeȱ isȱ takingȱplace.ȱDoȱ Iȱ thenȱmoveȱ toȱ anotherȱconditioning?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱmay.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ aȱ vastȱ numberȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ andȱweȇveȱ onlyȱ lookedȱatȱthatȱone.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱfurther,ȱbecauseȱoneȱreflexȱgivesȱriseȱ toȱ anotherȱ andȱ another.ȱBehindȱ theseȱ areȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱdifferentȱ reflexesȱ readyȱtoȱoperate,ȱandȱsomeȱofȱthoseȱmayȱevenȱbringȱbackȱorȱrecreateȱtheȱ reflexȱyouȱthinkȱyouȇveȱeliminated.ȱ

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Supposeȱyouȱsay:ȱ ȇOK,ȱsomebodyȱyelledȱatȱme.ȱAndȱIȱcanȱalreadyȱbeginȱ toȱseeȱtheȱchemistryȱandȱallȱthat,ȱandȱIȱdonȇtȱrespondȱsoȱmuch.ȇȱButȱyouȱ mayȱhaveȱfurtherȱassumptionsȱwhichȱsay:ȱȇWheneverȱIȇmȱtooȱdisturbedȱIȱ canȱ doȱ nothingȱ aboutȱ it.ȱ Iȇveȱ justȱ gotȱ toȱ letȱ itȱ takeȱ holdȱ ofȱme.ȇȱ Someȱ peopleȱhaveȱ thatȱ assumption;ȱ itȇsȱ aȱ commonȱ one.ȱ Ifȱ theȱdisturbanceȱ isȱ extremelyȱpowerfulȱthenȱIȱhaveȱtoȱletȱitȱtakeȱhold;ȱthatȇsȱnecessity.ȱSoȱthatȱ assumptionȱcouldȱalsoȱcomeȱ inȱ laterȱ Ȭȱsuddenlyȱsomebodyȱwhoȱ isȱveryȱ importantȱ toȱ youȱ reallyȱ yellsȱ andȱ itȱ happensȱ againȱ beyondȱ aȱ certainȱ intensityȱ andȱ theȱ reflexesȱ sortȱ ofȱ takeȱ overȱ again.ȱThatȱmayȱ happen;ȱ Iȱ donȇtȱsayȱitȱwill.ȱ

Q:ȱ Whenȱ sheȱ hasȱ hadȱ thatȱ experienceȱ ofȱ theȱ yellingȱ activatingȱ theȱ chemistry,ȱ andȱ ifȱ sheȱ has,ȱ togetherȱwithȱ that,ȱ aȱ properȱ descriptionȱ ofȱ whatȱ isȱ takingȱplace,ȱhasnȇtȱ sheȱ thenȱpointedȱ inȱaȱnewȱdirectionȱ Ȭȱevenȱ thoughȱ someoneȱ elseȇsȱ yellingȱmayȱ causeȱ herȱ toȱ react?ȱ Sheȱ hasȱ beenȱ shifted.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ thereȇsȱaȱshiftȱ inȱdirection.ȱ Itȇsȱaȱstep,ȱbutȱstillȱ thereȱmayȱbeȱ more.ȱ

Q:ȱHowever,ȱpeopleȱwhoȱhaveȱhadȱ thatȱexperienceȱareȱneverȱ theȱsame,ȱ evenȱ thoughȱ theyȱ stillȱ react.ȱ Theyȱ haveȱ aȱ newȱ opening,ȱwouldnȇtȱ youȱ say?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Thatȱ openingȱ canȱ beȱ lostȱ ifȱ youȱ donȇtȱ keepȱ itȱ up.ȱ Itȱ requiresȱ sustainedȱwork.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱdonȇtȱthinkȱthatȱmeansȱmuchȱhasȱhappened,ȱonlyȱthatȱtheȱrigidityȱofȱ theȱassumptionsȱofȱtheȱconditioningȱmayȱbeȱlooseningȱaȱlittleȱbitȱandȱtheȱ personȱcanȱfeelȱmoreȱcomfortable.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAȱcertainȱmoveȱhasȱhappened,ȱbutȱwhatȱIȱwantȱtoȱsayȱisȱthatȱweȱ haveȱtoȱgoȱveryȱmuchȱfurther.ȱ

Q:ȱ Sometimesȱ weȱ canȱ foolȱ ourselves.ȱ Weȱ have,ȱ especiallyȱ inȱ thisȱ environmentȱ ofȱ peopleȱ whoȱ areȱ interestedȱ inȱ theseȱ questions,ȱ theȱ tendencyȱ toȱ getȱ veryȱ quicklyȱ intoȱ anotherȱ assumption,ȱ saying:ȱ ȇIȇveȱ changed.ȱSomethingȱhappenedȱinȱmeȱandȱIȇmȱtransformed.ȇȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱwouldȱbeȱ anȱunjustifiedȱ conclusion,ȱwithoutȱ anyȱ evidenceȱ backingȱitȱup.ȱThatȇȱsȱtheȱkindȱofȱthoughtȱthatȱgoesȱwrongȱȬȱweȱjumpȱtoȱaȱ conclusion,ȱwhichȱgivesȱpleasureȱorȱwhatever.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱyouȱcouldȱjustȱ lookȱatȱit;ȱitȇsȱaȱstepȱfromȱwhichȱyouȱcouldȱlearnȱsomething.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱProvidedȱtheȱcorrectȱdescriptionȱaccompaniesȱit.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱputȱitȱcorrectlyȱinȱwords,ȱbecauseȱtheȱtroubleȱisȱinȱtheȱ verbalȱ sphereȱ anywayȱ Ȭȱwhichȱhasȱ thenȱ affectedȱ theȱ chemistryȱ andȱ allȱ that.ȱAndȱinȱaddition,ȱallȱtheȱotherȱstuffȱisȱbeingȱcarefullyȱhiddenȱbyȱtheȱ reflexes;ȱsoȱifȱyouȱdonȇtȱgetȱitȱintoȱwordsȱitȇsȱnotȱlikelyȱyouȱareȱgoingȱtoȱ seeȱ itȱTheȱproblemȱ isȱnotȱ justȱtheȱfeelingsȱorȱtheȱreflexes,ȱandȱsoȱon;ȱ itȇsȱ theȱ relationȱ betweenȱ allȱ thatȱ andȱ theȱwords.ȱ Theȱ thoughtȱwhichȱwasȱ underlyingȱtheȱwordsȱwas:ȱȇWheneverȱanybodyȱyellsȱatȱmeȱitȱmeansȱIȇmȱ bad.ȇȱNow,ȱthatȱisȱanȱassumptionȱofȱnecessity.ȱ ȇWheneverȇȱisȱalways;ȱitȇsȱ somethingȱ thatȱ isȱ alwaysȱ so.ȱThatȇsȱwhyȱ itȇsȱ suchȱ aȱ powerfulȱ concept.ȱ Youȱoftenȱdonȇtȱseeȱtheȱpowerȱofȱtheȱassumptionȱofȱnecessity.ȱSoȱ ifȱyouȱ donȇtȱputȱ itȱ inȱwordsȱ theȱ reflexȱmerelyȱhappensȱandȱyouȱdonȇtȱ seeȱ theȱ generalȱassumptionsȱbackȱofȱitȱButȱifȱyouȱdoȱputȱitȱinȱwordsȱyouȱcanȱseeȱ clearly:ȱ ȇWheneverȱanybodyȱyellsȱatȱmeȱ itȱmeansȱ Iȇmȱbad.ȇȱYouȱneedȱ toȱ putȱitȱinȱwordsȱandȱsayȱ ȇthatȇsȱtheȱwayȱIȱthinkȇ.ȱAndȱthenȱyouȱwillȱgetȱaȱ feelingȱofȱ that.ȱButȱnoticeȱ theȱassumptionȱofȱnecessityȱ Ȭȱ thatȱwheneverȱ anybodyȱyellsȱatȱmeȱitȇsȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱtoȱfeelȱthatȱIȇmȱbad.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȱseemsȱyouȱcanȱreflectȱonȱ itȱ inȱ thisȱway,ȱandȱ thenȱyouȇreȱchangingȱ theȱfocusȱfromȱȇtheyȱshouldnȇtȱyellȱatȱmeȇȱtoȱȇwhatȇsȱgoingȱonȱinȱtheȱmindȱ thatȇsȱmakingȱitȱsoȱterribleȱorȱthatȇsȱcreatingȱtheȱreactionȱfromȱmyȱhiddenȱ assumptions?ȇ.ȱButȱisȱthereȱsomeȱkeyȱtoȱgetȱbehindȱtheȱwholeȱsystemȱofȱ reflexes,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱ justȱ examiningȱ eachȱ oneȱ andȱ sayingȱ whatȱ theȱ assumptionȱbehindȱeachȱreflexȱis?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱexploreȱthatȱWeȱexamineȱitȱnotȱinȱtheȱspiritȱofȱtryingȱ toȱgetȱ ridȱofȱ thisȱorȱ thatȱ reflexȱ inȱparticular,ȱbutȱ ratherȱ inȱ theȱ spiritȱofȱ

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learningȱmoreȱ aboutȱ theȱwholeȱ system,ȱ soȱmaybeȱweȱ learnȱ somethingȱ whichȱcanȱthenȱbeȱextended.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱItȱseemsȱtoȱmeȱthatȱtheȱdescriptionȱneededȱwasnȇtȱsimplyȱȇIȱdonȇtȱwantȱ peopleȱ toȱ yellȱ atȱmeȱ andȱ thatȱ bothersȱmeȇ.ȱRather:ȱ ȇUpȱ toȱ thatȱ pointȱ Iȱ believedȱthatȱtheȱdisturbanceȱ inȱmeȱwasȱcausedȱbyȱsomeoneȱȈoutȱthereȈȱ sayingȱ somethingȱ toȱme;ȱ andȱ nowȱ Iȱ seeȱ thatȱ inȱ responseȱ toȱwords,ȱ Iȱ generateȱaȱdisturbanceȱinȱme.ȇȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱIȱdidnȇtȱevenȱdoȱit.ȱYouȱcouldȱputȱitȱlikeȱthis:ȱ ȇIȱhaveȱaȱsetȱofȱ reflexesȱthatȱdidȱit,ȱwhichȱcameȱbecauseȱIȱhadȱconcludedȱfromȱaȱnumberȱ ofȱcasesȱthatȱitȱwasȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱtoȱfeelȱbadȱwheneverȱsomebodyȱ yelledȱȬȱthatȱitȱwasȱtheȱrightȱthingȱtoȱdo,ȱthatȱitȱwasȱinevitableȇ,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ Thatȱwasȱ theȱ thought;ȱ andȱ thereforeȱwheneverȱ somebodyȱ yelled,ȱ theȱ reflexȱsimplyȱworkedȱȬȱjustȱlikeȱtheȱkneeȬjerk.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱitȱisnȇtȱsoȱmuchȱwhatȱweȱsay;ȱwhatȱisȱimportantȱisȱhowȱweȱsayȱit.ȱ Isnȇtȱthatȱso?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱyellingȱconveysȱaȱmessage.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱinȱseeingȱthat,ȱhavenȇtȱIȱinȱsomeȱsenseȱshiftedȱfromȱthinkingȱthatȱ theȱproblemȱwasȱexternalȱtoȱme?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYouȱbeganȱtoȱlookȱatȱtheȱrealȱsourceȱofȱtheȱproblem,ȱwhichȱisȱyourȱ ownȱ reflex.ȱWhatȱyouȱareȱpointingȱoutȱ isȱ thatȱ Iȱalsoȱhadȱanotherȱ reflexȱ before;ȱandȱwheneverȱthisȱhappened,ȱIȱaddedȱanotherȱreflexȱsayingȱthatȱ thisȱallȱhasȱoriginatedȱoutsideȱȬȱthatȱthatȇsȱwhereȱtheȱblameȱorȱtheȱcauseȱ lies.ȱ

Soȱyouȱseeȱhowȱ theȱ reflexesȱallȱworkȱ together.ȱ Inȱorderȱ toȱpreventȱyouȱ fromȱseeingȱtheȱrealȱcauseȱofȱtheȱthing,ȱtheȱreflexȱsystemȱhasȱdevelopedȱ anȱexplanationȱofȱwhyȱyouȱfeelȱbadȱwhichȱisȱthatȱsomebodyȱoutsideȱhasȱ doneȱsomethingȱtoȱyou.ȱ

Thatȇsȱaȱrationalization.ȱ

Q:ȱThisȱseemsȱ toȱ indicateȱ thatȱ theȱproblemȱwasȱalwaysȱwithinȱ thought,ȱ notȱoutside.ȱThereforeȱitȇsȱjustȱaȱprojection.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Ifȱ yourȱ reflexesȱ hadnȇtȱ worked,ȱ nothingȱ wouldȱ haveȱ happened.ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱ saysȱ somethingȱbadȱ toȱyouȱ inȱ aȱ languageȱyouȱ donȇtȱunderstand,ȱnothingȱhappens.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱtoneȱofȱtheȱvoiceȱsometimesȱmayȱconveyȱtheȱmeaning.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ yellingȱwillȱworkȱ inȱ anyȱ language.ȱButȱ somebodyȱ canȱ sayȱ somethingȱtoȱyouȱveryȱquietlyȱwhichȱalsoȱmeansȱtheȱsameȱthingȱandȱyouȱ willȱfeelȱbad,ȱunlessȱyouȱdonȇtȱunderstandȱwhatȱheȱsays.ȱ

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Theȱpointȱ isȱ thenȱ thatȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱwatch.ȱ Itȇsȱcrucial.ȱSay,ȱ forȱ instance,ȱ thatȱyouȱhaveȱaȱvalidȱreasonȱwhichȱmakesȱitȱnecessaryȱforȱyouȱtoȱfeelȱbadȱ orȱ toȱ getȱ angryȱ orȱ toȱ beȱ frightenedȱ orȱ pleased,ȱ orȱ whatever.ȱ Thoseȱ feelingsȱwillȱaffectȱ theȱchemistry,ȱandȱ thenȱ theȱnotionȱofȱnecessityȱputsȱ allȱ theȱpowerȱbehindȱ it.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱnoticeȱhowȱoftenȱ itȇsȱ thereȱ implicitlyȱ ratherȱthanȱexplicitly.ȱThus,ȱitȇsȱveryȱimportantȱtoȱgetȱitȱthereȱexplicitlyȱsoȱ thatȱ youȱ reallyȱ seeȱ itȱ isȱ there,ȱ becauseȱ theȱwholeȱ systemȱ isȱ setȱ upȱ toȱ preventȱyouȱfromȱseeingȱit.ȱ

Freudȱ usedȱ toȱ talkȱ aboutȱ repressionȱ ofȱ unpleasantȱ memoriesȱ andȱ traumaticȱmemories.ȱAndȱyouȱmightȱask:ȱȇHowȱcouldȱthisȱbe?ȱYouȱmustȱ firstȱrememberȱsomethingȱinȱorderȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱrepressȱit.ȇȱItȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱ paradox.ȱButȱ itȇsȱnotȱaȱparadox,ȱbecauseȱourȱmemoryȱalwaysȱhasȱaȱvastȱ content.ȱAȱ lotȱofȱ itȱcomesȱupȱwhichȱ isȱ irrelevant,ȱandȱweȱhaveȱaȱ lotȱorȱ reflexesȱsetȱupȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱselectȱwhatȱ isȱ relevant,ȱevenȱ inȱnormalȱhealthyȱ memory.ȱNow,ȱ thoseȱ sameȱ reflexesȱ canȱ beȱ setȱ upȱ toȱ repress,ȱ toȱ pushȱ downȱ thisȱ unpleasantȱmaterial.ȱ Theyȱ simplyȱ respondȱ toȱ thatȱmaterialȱ automatically,ȱ likeȱtheȱkneeȬjerk,ȱandȱgetȱ itȱdown;ȱyouȱdonȇtȱneedȱtoȱdoȱ anythingȱ inȱ particular.ȱ Theȱwholeȱ systemȱ isȱ setȱ upȱ toȱ doȱ thatȱ sortȱ ofȱ thing,ȱsoȱitȇsȱreallyȱveryȱhardȱjustȱtoȱlookȱinȱthereȱandȱseeȱanything.ȱ

Butȱifȱyouȱgetȱaȱhintȱorȱaȱclueȱandȱcanȱthenȱputȱitȱinȱwords,ȱyouȱcanȱbeginȱ toȱseeȱatȱleastȱwhatȱtheȱthoughtȱis.ȱAndȱyouȱwatchȱwhatȱtheȱwordsȱdoȱtoȱ yourȱchemistry.ȱ

Q:ȱSomethingȱhappensȱtoȱthoughtȱwhenȱweȱexpressȱit.ȱItȱmakesȱitȱsolid,ȱitȱ makesȱ itȱreal,ȱweȱrelateȱtoȱ it.ȱIfȱIȱdonȇtȱexpressȱ it,ȱthoughtȱcanȱtakeȱoverȱ myȱmindȱandȱ Iȱ loseȱ ȇmeȇ;ȱbutȱ ifȱ Iȱbringȱ itȱoutȱ itȱbecomesȱmoreȱrealȱandȱ thenȱIȱcanȱlookȱatȱit.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȇsȱimplicitȱwhenȱyouȱdonȇtȱputȱitȱinȱwords,ȱandȱitȱcanȱdoȱallȱ sortsȱofȱthings.ȱButȱnowȱmakeȱitȱexplicitȱandȱthenȱyouȱcanȱatȱleastȱseeȱthatȱ thoughtȱisȱdoingȱit.ȱSoȱyouȇreȱgettingȱsomeȱperception.ȱByȱbringingȱitȱoutȱ youȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱisȱwhatȱisȱhappening,ȱwhereasȱifȱyouȱdonȇtȱmakeȱitȱ explicitȱyouȱcanȇtȱseeȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ involvedȱatȱall.ȱAndȱ thereforeȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇthisȱ isȱanȱemotionalȱproblemȇ,ȱorȱ ȇsomebodyȱoutȱ thereȱhasȱdoneȱ itȇ.ȱ Youȱgiveȱvariousȱexplanations.ȱ

Q:ȱAsȱyouȱputȱitȱintoȱwords,ȱthough,ȱisnȇtȱitȱjustȱasȱimportantȱtoȱbeȱawareȱ orȱconnectedȱtoȱtheȱresponseȱinȱtheȱbodyȱdirectly?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱwhatȱ Iȱmean;ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ toȱwatchȱ notȱ onlyȱ theȱwords.ȱ WhenȱyouȱsayȱtheȱwordsȱȬȱtheȱtrueȱwordsȱexpressingȱtheȱwayȱyouȱreallyȱ thinkȱ Ȭȱyourȱbodyȱ isȱgoingȱ toȱ respond.ȱYouȱmayȱsayȱ ȇIȇveȱbeenȱhurtȱbyȱ thatȱperson;ȱIȇmȱveryȱangryȇ,ȱandȱthenȱyouȱfindȱoutȱinȱwords,ȱȇIȇmȱangryȱ becauseȱheȱdidȱthisȱandȱthisȱandȱthis;ȱandȱwhenȱanybodyȱdoesȱthisȱandȱ thisȱandȱ thisȱ toȱmeȱ itȇsȱonlyȱ rightȱandȱnecessaryȱ forȱmeȱ toȱgetȱangryȱorȱ hurt,ȱ orȱwhateverȇ.ȱ Thenȱ ifȱ youȱ haveȱ foundȱ theȱ rightȱwords,ȱ andȱ youȱ watch,ȱ youȱ willȱ seeȱ thatȱ theȱ bodyȱ responds.ȱ Thatȱ willȱ beȱ aȱ niceȱ demonstrationȱofȱhowȱtheȱsystemȱworks.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱyouȱmeanȱwordsȱlikeȱȇIȇveȱbeenȱhurtȇ?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Theȱ wordsȱ whichȱ expressȱ theȱ realȱ thoughtȱ behindȱ yourȱ hurt.ȱ Supposeȱyouȱsay:ȱȇIȱtrustedȱthatȱperson.ȱHeȱwasȱmyȱfriendȱandȱIȱcountedȱ onȱhimȱandȱ thenȱheȱsaidȱ thoseȱ terribleȱ thingsȱaboutȱme.ȱ Itȇsȱcompletelyȱ unjustified.ȱItȇsȱtraitorousȱbehaviour.ȱThisȱwasȱreallyȱsomethingȱthatȱwasȱ notȱ justified,ȱnotȱright.ȱWorseȱȬȱheȱbetrayedȱme,ȱheȱattackedȱme,ȱheȱhadȱ noȱreasonȱtoȱdoȱthis.ȇȱYouȱthinkȱofȱallȱthoseȱwordsȱandȱyouȱwillȱseeȱtheȱ effectȱonȱtheȱbody.ȱIfȱyouȱhaveȱfoundȱtheȱrightȱwords,ȱifȱyouȱhaveȱfoundȱ theȱwordsȱwhichȱ expressȱ theȱwayȱ youȱ areȱ actuallyȱ thinking,ȱ theȱ bodyȱ willȱbeȱaffected.ȱ

Q:ȱAtȱfirstȱweȱhaveȱanȱ intellectualȱanger,ȱandȱasȱweȱexpressȱ itȱtheȱbodyȱ picksȱitȱupȱandȱweȱfindȱoutȱweȇreȱemotionallyȱangry.ȱAndȱtheȱnextȱthingȱ youȱknowȱourȱvoiceȱisȱgettingȱloud,ȱorȱwhatever.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Andȱ thenȱ youȱ findȱ thatȱ youȇreȱ physicallyȱ angry;ȱ namely,ȱ youȱ tenseȱallȱoverȱtheȱbody.ȱAndȱifȱyouȱstayȱwithȱitȱyouȱfindȱyouȱwillȱfinallyȱ getȱ theȱ impressionȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ nothingȱ butȱ aȱ physicalȱ process.ȱ Thatȇsȱ crucial,ȱbecauseȱyouȇllȱseeȱthisȱmeansȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱphysicalȱ processesȱofȱtheȱbody,ȱaȱveryȱsubtleȱpart.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ Iȱ canȱ reflectȱ onȱ someȱ disturbingȱ emotionȱ Iȇveȱ hadȱ andȱ discoverȱthisȱunderlyingȱassumptionȱofȱnecessity.ȱButȱoften,ȱevenȱthoughȱ Iȱcanȱsayȱ intellectuallyȱ thatȱ itȱ isnȇtȱreallyȱnecessary,ȱ thereȇsȱstillȱaȱstrongȱ feelingȱthatȱitȱis.ȱIȱdonȇtȱwantȱtoȱletȱgoȱofȱit.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱ theȱ reflex.ȱWhatȱ Iȇmȱ suggestingȱwonȇtȱ cureȱ it.ȱ Itȱ isȱ inȱ theȱ chemistry,ȱitȇsȱnotȱonlyȱinȱtheȱintellect.ȱThisȱisȱbeingȱdoneȱtoȱlearnȱandȱnotȱ toȱchangeȱanything,ȱbecauseȱifȱyouȇreȱtryingȱtoȱchangeȱanythingȱitȱwonȇtȱ work.ȱThatȱisȱcrucialȱtoȱsee.ȱ

Soȱ youȱ findȱ theȱwordsȱwhichȱ doȱ thisȱ andȱ seeȱ howȱ thoseȱ feelingsȱ areȱ affectedȱandȱhowȱtheȱbodyȱisȱaffectedȱȬȱjustȱsimplyȱtoȱlearn.ȱItȱmayȱmakeȱ aȱbadȱfeelingȱgoȱaway;ȱ ifȱso,ȱfine.ȱButȱ itȇsȱnotȱtheȱpurposeȱtoȱmakeȱ itȱgoȱ away.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱweȇreȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱsomeȱperceptionȱintoȱtheȱprocess?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱInȱfact,ȱifȱitȱgoesȱawayȱtooȱeasilyȱyouȱwillȱmissȱseeingȱitȱandȱ youȱwonȇtȱhaveȱaȱchanceȱtoȱlearnȱhowȱitȱworks.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱpurposeȱisȱlearning,ȱnotȱchanging.ȱ

Bohm:ȱNotȱchanging.ȱSomethingȱmayȱchangeȱyouȱwhenȱyouȱ learn,ȱbutȱ thatȇsȱaȱbyȬproduct.ȱ

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Q:ȱOurȱconditioningȱtellsȱusȱitȇsȱnotȱniceȱtoȱbeȱangry,ȱitȇsȱnotȱacceptableȱtoȱ cry.ȱAndȱwhenȱweȱdoȱfillȱupȱwithȱemotionȱourȱconditioningȱtellsȱusȱweȇreȱ notȱsupposedȱtoȱfeelȱthat.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ thing.ȱ Theȱ conditioningȱ isȱ whatȱ weȇveȱ beenȱ talkingȱ about.ȱ Theȱ conditioningȱ isȱ whatȱ makesȱ usȱ angryȱ andȱ theȱ conditioningȱ saysȱ ȇyouȱ shouldnȇtȱbeȱ angryȇ.ȱ Itȇsȱ allȱ theȱ same.ȱThenȱyouȱ mayȱ findȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ toȱ putȱ thatȱ inȱ words,ȱ sayingȱ ȇIȱ believeȱ itȇsȱ absolutelyȱnecessaryȱforȱmeȱnotȱtoȱbeȱangryȇ,ȱandȱbeginȱtoȱlookȱatȱthat.ȱSoȱ thoseȱareȱmoreȱwords.ȱTheȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱaȱ system,ȱandȱ itȱ sortȱofȱ spreadsȱ outȱ andȱ outȱ andȱ out.ȱTherefore,ȱ youȱdonȇtȱ expectȱ toȱ getȱ itȱ allȱ rightȱawayȱbyȱthisȱprocedure.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱcanȇtȱreallyȱeverȱexpectȱanything,ȱ inȱ theȱsenseȱ thatȱanyȱ tryingȱ toȱ moveȱ inȱ thereȱandȱtakeȱholdȱofȱsomethingȱwouldȱbeȱpartȱofȱ theȱsystemȱ moving.ȱAndȱwhatȱyouȇreȱsuggestingȱliesȱoutsideȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ weȱ donȇtȱ tryȱ toȱ doȱ anything.ȱWeȇreȱ justȱ learningȱȬȱaware,ȱattentive,ȱlearning.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ thatȱ implyingȱ thatȱ theȱwayȱweȱ areȱ inȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱ likeȱbeingȱ inȱ someȱsortȱofȱaȱhypnoticȱtrance?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱexactlyȱwhatȱhypnosisȱis.ȱHypnosisȱisȱtheȱuseȱofȱtheȱwordȱ toȱoperateȱtheȱsystem.ȱYouȱacceptȱtheȱwordȱofȱtheȱhypnotistȱasȱtoȱwhatȱisȱ necessary,ȱandȱthenȱthatȇsȱallȱthereȱisȱtoȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱweȱareȱawareȱofȱ theȱ systemȱasȱaȱwholeȱ Ȭȱofȱ theȱphysiologicalȱ process,ȱ theȱ psychologicalȱ process,ȱ theȱ wholeȱ thingȱ Ȭȱ theȱ descriptionȱ seemsȱ toȱ beȱ accurate.ȱ Itȱ comesȱ outȱ ofȱ thatȱ awareness.ȱ Butȱ whenȱ theȱ intellectȱ wantsȱ toȱ findȱ theȱ rightȱ wordȱ toȱ describeȱ theȱ process,ȱ myȱ experienceȱhasȱbeenȱthatȱitȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱasȱwell.ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȇmȱnotȱsuggestingȱyouȱdoȱthatȱatȱthisȱstage.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱtoȱfindȱtheȱ wordȱ thatȱmakesȱ theȱprocessȱgoȱwithȱ fullȱstrength.ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱsaying:ȱ ȇIȇveȱ gotȱaȱpieceȱofȱmachinery.ȱIȱwantȱtoȱmakeȱitȱgoȱslowlyȱsoȱIȱcanȱlookȱatȱitȱȬȱ notȱspinȱwithȱtremendousȱspeedȱsoȱIȱcanȇtȱseeȱit,ȱnorȱ justȱstandȱstillȱsoȱIȱ donȇtȱseeȱhowȱitȱworks.ȇȱ

Q:ȱDoȱweȱfindȱwhatȱtheȱbuttonȱis?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱbuttonȱisȱtheȱword.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Iȱ stillȱdonȇtȱunderstandȱ theȱbutton.ȱ ȇIsȱ itȱhavingȱ justȱaȱveryȱaccurateȱ description?ȱIsȱthatȱwhatȱyouȇreȱsaying?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhatȱweȱneedȱisȱaȱcorrectȱdescriptionȱofȱtheȱwayȱyouȱareȱactuallyȱ thinking.ȱUsuallyȱweȱdonȇtȱputȱ inȱwordsȱ theȱwayȱweȱ reallyȱ think.ȱWeȱ wonȇtȱadmitȱtoȱourselvesȱtheȱrealȱnatureȱofȱourȱthoughts.ȱIfȱyouȱareȱhurtȱ youȱusuallyȱsayȱ ȇheȱhurtȱmeȇ,ȱorȱ ȇIȇmȱhurtȇ,ȱorȱ ȇIȇmȱnotȱhurtȇ.ȱYouȱsayȱallȱ sortsȱofȱthings.ȱThoseȱwordsȱwillȱ justȱleadȱyouȱastray,ȱbecauseȱtheyȱwillȱ notȱbeȱtheȱthoughtsȱwhichȱareȱactuallyȱworking.ȱTheyȱwillȱjustȱmuddleȱitȱ up.ȱ

Supposeȱ weȱ say:ȱ ȇIȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ exactlyȱ theȱ words,ȱ butȱ Iȇmȱ goingȱ toȱ experimentȱandȱtryȱtoȱfindȱthemȱȬȱtheȱwordsȱwhichȱexpressȱtheȱthoughtsȱ thatȱ areȱ reallyȱworking,ȱwhichȱ areȱ nowȱ onlyȱ implicitȱ Iȱwantȱ toȱmakeȱ themȱ explicit.ȇȱ Itȱmayȱ beȱ thatȱwhenȱ Iȱ useȱ thoseȱwords,ȱ Iȱ feelȱworse.ȱ Therefore,ȱmyȱinstinctȱisȱnotȱtoȱuseȱthem.ȱButȱIȱsayȱȇno,ȱthisȱisȱnecessary,ȱ reallyȱnecessary,ȱtrulyȱnecessaryȱtoȱgetȱintoȱthisȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱdigȱuntilȱweȱfindȱtheȱwords.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱSoȱ Iȱ say:ȱ ȇItȇsȱ trulyȱnecessary.ȱ Iȇveȱ seenȱwhyȱ itȱ isȱnecessary.ȱ Theȱfactȱthatȱ itȱhurtsȱaȱ littleȱdoesnȇtȱmatter.ȇȱIfȱyouȱhadȱaȱtoothacheȱyouȱ wouldȱgoȱ toȱ theȱdentistȱ andȱ itȱ couldȱhurt;ȱbutȱyouȱwouldȱ sayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ necessaryȱforȱhimȱtoȱdrillȱorȱwhatever,ȱotherwiseȱyourȱtoothȱwillȱdecay.ȱ

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Likewise,ȱyouȱsay:ȱȇOK,ȱIȇmȱgoingȱtoȱdigȱaȱbit.ȱItȱmayȱhurt,ȱbutȱitȱdoesnȇtȱ matter.ȱIȱwantȱtoȱfindȱoutȱwhatȱisȱgoingȱon.ȇȱ

Q:ȱCanȱyouȱgiveȱanȱexampleȱofȱwhatȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱȇfindingȱtheȱwordsȇ?ȱ

Bohm:ȱSupposeȱyouȱareȱangryȱandȱsay:ȱ ȇIȇmȱangry.ȱHeȱkeptȱmeȱwaitingȱ twoȱhours.ȱWhatȱdidȱheȱmeanȱbyȱkeepingȱmeȱwaitingȱsoȱlong?ȱHeȱtakesȱ meȱ forȱgranted.ȱHeȱdoesnȇtȱconsiderȱmyȱvalueȱatȱall.ȱHeȱdoesȱwhateverȱ heȱpleases.ȱHeȱprobablyȱhadȱsomethingȱbetterȱtoȱdoȱandȱheȱignoredȱme.ȱ Heȱ keptȱ meȱ waitingȱ hereȱ andȱ myȱ timeȱ isȱ valuable.ȱ Heȱ justȱ doesnȇtȱ considerȱmeȱ properly.ȇȱ Dependingȱ onȱwhatȱ itȱ is,ȱ youȱ findȱ theȱwordsȱ whichȱ expressȱ theȱ realȱ reasonȱwhichȱ seemsȱ toȱmakeȱ itȱnecessaryȱ toȱbeȱ angryȱ Ȭȱ toȱ justifyȱ it,ȱmakeȱ itȱ rightȱ andȱ necessary.ȱ ȇAnybodyȱwouldȱ beȱ angryȱ inȱ thisȱ case.ȱ Anybodyȱ treatedȱ thisȱ wayȱ wouldȱ beȱ angry.ȱ Itȇsȱ absolutelyȱnecessaryȱandȱuniversal.ȱIȇmȱreallyȱrightȇȱAndȱsoȱon.ȱ

Maybeȱ weȱ shouldȱ stopȱ nowȱ andȱ resumeȱ thisȱ afternoon.

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SATURDAYȱAFTERNOONȱ ȱ

Bohm:ȱAtȱ theȱendȱofȱ theȱmorningȱsessionȱweȱwereȱdiscussingȱwhatȱweȱ calledȱ aȱ ȇsystemȇ,ȱ andȱ sayingȱ thatȱ itȱ seemsȱ valuableȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ learnȱ somethingȱ aboutȱ thisȱ system.ȱWeȱ saidȱ thatȱ theȱ coreȱ ofȱ thisȱ systemȱ isȱ reallyȱ thought,ȱ thoughȱ itȱ involvesȱ allȱ aspectsȱ ofȱ ourȱ being.ȱWeȱ talkedȱ aboutȱtheȱwayȱtheȱsystemȱworks,ȱandȱsaidȱthatȱthroughȱobservationȱyouȱ mayȱbeȱableȱtoȱseeȱthisȱprocessȱhappeningȱandȱtherebyȱlearnȱsomethingȱ aboutȱ it.ȱ Also,ȱ weȱ wereȱ sayingȱ thatȱ withȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ emotionalȱ disturbances,ȱ suchȱasȱanger,ȱyouȱ couldȱ firstȱ findȱ theȱwordsȱwhichȱwillȱ stirȱupȱtheȱdisturbanceȱsoȱthatȱyouȱcanȱthenȱgetȱsomethingȱtoȱobserve.ȱInȱ thisȱwayȱ youȱ canȱ learnȱ aboutȱ theȱ relationshipȱ betweenȱ theȱword,ȱ theȱ thoughtȱandȱallȱthatȱfollowsȱȬȱtheȱfeeling,ȱtheȱstateȱofȱtheȱbodyȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ Ofȱ course,ȱ inȱdoingȱ thatȱ youȱ areȱ suspendingȱ theȱ angerȱ Ȭȱholdingȱ itȱ inȱ frontȱofȱyou,ȱsoȱtoȱspeak.ȱItȇsȱnotȱsoȱstrongȱthatȱyouȱfeelȱyouȱabsolutelyȱ mustȱexpressȱit,ȱnorȱareȱyouȱkeepingȱitȱhidden.ȱ

Soȱyouȇreȱbeginningȱtoȱgetȱacquaintedȱwithȱtheȱsystem,ȱwithȱhowȱitȱreallyȱ works.ȱHowever,ȱifȱyouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱthatȱelementȱofȱaccurateȱlanguageȱorȱ anȱ accurateȱ representationȱ inȱ thought,ȱ thenȱ youȱ donȇtȱ seeȱ theȱ systemȱ becauseȱ theȱcoreȱofȱ itȱ isȱmissing.ȱThoughtȱgenerallyȱhasȱ itȱ thatȱyouȱ justȱ ȇseeȇȱwhatȱ isȱ happening;ȱ thenȱ theȱ nextȱ thoughtȱ comesȱ alongȱ andȱ saysȱ ȇwhatȱ isȱhappeningȱ isȱ somethingȱ thatȱ isȱ independentȱ ofȱ thoughtȇ.ȱAndȱ thusȱyouȱgetȱcaughtȱinȱthatȱsameȱfaultȱagain.ȱ

Theȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱ seeȱ this,ȱ toȱbeȱactuallyȱ seeingȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ happeningȱȬȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱbehindȱthisȱsystem.ȱ

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ȱȱ

Otherwiseȱtheȱsystemȱseemsȱtoȱstandȱbyȱitself,ȱindependentȱofȱthought.ȱ

Takeȱanyȱcompany,ȱsuchȱasȱGeneralȱMotors,ȱasȱanȱexampleȱofȱsomethingȱ organizedȱ byȱ thought.ȱWeȱ haveȱ theȱ thoughtȱ thatȱ itȱ existsȱ andȱ hasȱ aȱ certainȱstructure.ȱButȱitȱisȱthatȱveryȱthoughtȱwhichȱtiesȱtheȱfactoriesȱandȱ everythingȱelseȱtogetherȱasȱaȱcompany.ȱWhatȱweȱconsiderȱtoȱbeȱGeneralȱ Motorsȱ isȱ entirelyȱ organizedȱ byȱ thinking.ȱExceptȱ forȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ—ȱ Iȱ mean,ȱ unlessȱ peopleȱ believedȱ thatȱ itȱ existedȱ Ȭȱ itȱwouldnȇtȱ exist.ȱ Thereȱ mightȱbeȱtheȱfactoriesȱandȱbuildingsȱandȱall,ȱbutȱpeopleȱwouldnȇtȱknowȱ whatȱ theyȇreȱ supposedȱ toȱ beȱ doingȱ orȱ howȱ theyȇreȱ supposedȱ toȱ beȱ related,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱTheȱthoughtȱisȱatȱtheȱcoreȱofȱit,ȱandȱthereȱisȱaȱwholeȱ systemȱwhichȱdevelopsȱoutȱofȱthat.ȱ

Now,ȱweȱwantȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱseeȱourȱsystemȱofȱreflexesȱinȱoperation;ȱandȱ Iȇmȱsuggestingȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱhaveȱ itȱthereȱ inȱfrontȱofȱusȱtoȱseeȱ it,ȱbutȱ suspendȱourȱreactions.ȱ

Theȱ secondȱ pointȱ aboutȱ theȱ useȱ ofȱ languageȱ isȱ thatȱ afterȱ youȱ seeȱ somethingȱaboutȱhowȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱworking,ȱyouȱ shouldȱalsoȱputȱ thatȱ intoȱwords,ȱbecauseȱyouȱwantȱtoȱinformȱtheȱthoughtȱprocessȱofȱwhatȱyouȱ haveȱ seen.ȱ Inȱotherȱwords,ȱyouȱmayȱ seeȱ something;ȱbutȱ ifȱ theȱ thoughtȱ processȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱaboutȱ it,ȱ itȱwillȱ justȱgoȱonȱasȱbefore.ȱTheȱ thoughtȱ processȱitselfȱdoesnȇtȱȇseeȇ.ȱItȱcanȱonlyȱgetȱinformation.ȱItsȱtypicalȱwayȱofȱ gettingȱinformationȱȬȱonȱsuchȱonȱabstractȱlevelȱanywayȱȬȱisȱfromȱwords.ȱ Therefore,ȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱitȱisȱessentialȱtoȱuseȱwordsȱtoȱelicitȱthisȱthing,ȱ toȱmakeȱ itȱvisibleȱ toȱ thought;ȱandȱalsoȱweȱmayȱ thenȱuseȱwordsȱ toȱstateȱ whatȱweȱhaveȱseen.ȱButȱweȱdonȇtȱwantȱtoȱdoȱitȱtheȱotherȱwayȱaroundȱȬȱtoȱ sayȱȇthisȱisȱtheȱwayȱitȱisȇ,ȱandȱthenȱtoȱseeȱitȱthatȱway.ȱIfȱitȇsȱdoneȱthatȱwayȱ

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itȱleadsȱtoȱtrouble,ȱtoȱillusion,ȱwhichȱIȇmȱgoingȱtoȱdiscussȱasȱweȱgoȱalong.ȱ Thisȱisȱaȱkeyȱpoint.ȱ

Areȱthereȱanyȱfurtherȱquestionsȱbeforeȱweȱgoȱon?ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱwordsȱwillȱbringȱoutȱmemory,ȱandȱthatȱmemoryȱ createsȱobjects?ȱByȱusingȱtheȱword,ȱareȱweȱobjectifyingȱtheȱmemory?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo.ȱByȱusingȱtheȱwordȱweȱareȱnotȱonlyȱbringingȱoutȱtheȱmemory,ȱ butȱweȇreȱproducingȱ theȱ actualȱ stateȱwhichȱweȱ areȱ tryingȱ toȱ exploreȱ Ȭȱ suchȱ asȱ anger.ȱWeȱ findȱ theȱwordsȱwhichȱwillȱ bringȱ upȱ thatȱ previousȱ angerȱthatȱisȱstillȱsimmering.ȱYouȇveȱforgottenȱaboutȱitȱperhaps;ȱhowever,ȱ itȇsȱstillȱthereȱonȱtheȱreflexes,ȱreadyȱtoȱspringȱagainȱintoȱactionȱanyȱtimeȱ somethingȱofȱthatȱnatureȱhappens.ȱAndȱifȱitȱdoesȱhappen,ȱitȱwillȱhappenȱ soȱ fastȱ thatȱyouȱmayȱnotȱgetȱaȱ lookȱatȱ it.ȱButȱ if,ȱ insteadȱofȱwaitingȱ forȱ somethingȱtoȱhappen,ȱyouȱbringȱitȱupȱbyȱusingȱtheȱrightȱwords,ȱthenȱyouȱ doȱhaveȱtimeȱtoȱlookȱatȱit.ȱAndȱoneȱofȱtheȱbigȱthingsȱyouȱwillȱbeȱableȱtoȱ lookȱatȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱwordsȱareȱdoingȱ it.ȱ Ifȱ theȱwordsȱwereȱnotȱ thereȱyouȱ wouldȱmissȱ theȱmainȱ point.ȱ Thatȱmeansȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ doingȱ it.ȱ Theȱ wordsȱrepresentȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱweȱ thinkȱthatȱweȇreȱnotȱusingȱwords,ȱareȱweȱstillȱusingȱwordsȱbutȱ justȱmissingȱtheȱfactȱthatȱweȇreȱusingȱthem?ȱOrȱareȱweȱthinkingȱinȱsomeȱ kindȱofȱotherȱlanguage?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Thereȱ mayȱ beȱ anotherȱ language.ȱ Thereȱ mayȱ beȱ anȱ imageȱ language.ȱThereȱ isȱ anȱ implicitȱ thoughtȱwhichȱ ȇgoesȱwithoutȱ sayingȇ.ȱ Itȱ saysȱimplicitlyȱȇwheneverȱanythingȱlikeȱthisȱhappens,ȱIȇveȱgotȱtoȱreactȱinȱ thisȱ wayȇ.ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ thought.ȱ Itȱ justȱ reacts.ȱ Andȱ rememberȱ thatȱ theȱ thoughtȱ spreadsȱoutȱ intoȱallȱ theȱotherȱ reflexes;ȱ thereforeȱ theȱ thoughtȱ isȱ stillȱgoingȱonȱinȱanotherȱform.ȱForȱexample,ȱifȱIȱwroteȱitȱoutȱonȱpaperȱitȱ wouldȱstillȱbeȱtheȱthoughtȱbutȱ inȱanotherȱform.ȱItȱcanȱtakeȱmany,ȱmanyȱ forms.ȱ Itȱ couldȱbeȱputȱonȱ aȱ televisionȱ set.ȱ Itȱ couldȱbeȱ carriedȱbyȱ radioȱ waves.ȱ Itȱ canȱ beȱ carriedȱ byȱ allȱ theȱ reflexes.ȱ Theyȇreȱ allȱ partȱ ofȱ thatȱ thought.ȱTheyȱareȱdifferentȱformsȱofȱthatȱoneȱthought.ȱItȇsȱveryȱimportantȱ toȱ seeȱ thisȱ Ȭthatȱ thisȱ thoughtȱgoesȱoutȱ andȱ spreadsȱ allȱoverȱ theȱworld.ȱ Otherȱpeopleȱpickȱitȱupȱandȱtheyȱmakeȱitȱpartȱofȱtheirȱreflexes.ȱButȱitȇsȱallȱ thought.ȱ

Theȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ wordsȱ areȱ aȱ wayȱ ofȱ bringingȱ theȱ thoughtȱ intoȱ evidence,ȱwhereasȱoftenȱitȱworksȱimplicitlyȱwithoutȱyourȱbeingȱawareȱofȱ it.ȱIfȱyouȱhaveȱaȱreflexȱthatȱaȱcertainȱkindȱofȱfoodȱdisgustsȱyou,ȱyouȱwillȱ getȱaȱ senseȱofȱdisgustȱwhenȱyouȱ seeȱorȱ smellȱ it.ȱButȱ thatȱdisgustȱcouldȱ haveȱ beenȱprogrammedȱ intoȱyouȱ byȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱwordsȱveryȱ earlyȱ inȱ childhood.ȱ Thatȇsȱ stillȱ thought.ȱ Thatȱ expressionȱ ofȱ disgustȱ isȱ basicallyȱ thought.ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱcontrolsȱit,ȱthatȇsȱwhatȱmakesȱitȱhappen.ȱItȇsȱonȱtheȱ reflexes.ȱSoȱ thoughtȱspreadsȱallȱoverȱ theȱplaceȱ inȱmany,ȱmanyȱdifferentȱ forms.ȱȱ

Q:ȱWeȇreȱjustȱnotȱawareȱofȱitȱ

Bohm:ȱPartȱofȱtheȱreasonȱweȇreȱnotȱawareȱofȱitȱisȱbecauseȱofȱourȱculture,ȱ whichȱ tellsȱusȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱonlyȱ intellectualȱandȱ thereforeȱ itȇsȱnoȱuseȱ

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lookingȱafterȱthisȱotherȱstuff.ȱWeȱmightȱbecomeȱawareȱofȱ itȱ ifȱ itȱwerenȇtȱ forȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱByȱdoingȱthis,ȱcanȱweȱfocusȱandȱseeȱourȱrealȱ intention,ȱnotȱ justȱwhatȱ weȱareȱtellingȱourselves?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱcanȱseeȱwhatȱisȱreallyȱhappening,ȱandȱseeȱthatȱthisȱhappeningȱ isȱproducingȱpartȱofȱourȱintention.ȱIfȱthereȱisȱaȱvalidȱnecessaryȱreasonȱtoȱ beȱ angryȱ orȱ toȱ beȱ impelledȱ toȱ doȱ something,ȱ thenȱ youȱ willȱ getȱ thatȱ intentionȱoutȱofȱtheȱthought.ȱ

Ifȱyouȱsayȱ ȇitȇsȱnecessaryȱforȱmeȱtoȱdoȱmyȱ jobȇ,ȱyouȱfindȱyourselfȱgettingȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱdoȱ it.ȱTheȱ intentionȱcanȱ flowȱoutȱofȱ theȱ thought,ȱsoȱ theȱ intentionȱisȱstillȱpartȱofȱtheȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȱsaidȱthatȱweȱneedȱtoȱputȱwhatȱweȇveȱunderstoodȱintoȱwords,ȱandȱ thenȱcommunicateȱitȱtoȱtheȱthoughtȱprocess.ȱHowȱdoȱweȱkeepȱthatȱfromȱ becomingȱanotherȱsystem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThereȱ isȱaȱdangerȱthatȱ itȱwillȱhappen.ȱWeȇllȱhaveȱtoȱdiscussȱ laterȱ howȱthisȱmayȱhappenȱandȱwhatȱcouldȱbeȱdoneȱwithȱthis.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱ itȱ isȱnecessaryȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ theȱ thoughtȱprocessȱwillȱnotȱknowȱwhatȱhasȱbeenȱ seenȱwithoutȱsomeȱwayȱofȱtranslatingȱitȱintoȱthought.ȱ

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Q:ȱAnyway,ȱ isnȇtȱoneȱofȱtheȱ ideasȱtoȱbringȱoutȱtheȱassumptionsȱthatȱareȱ alreadyȱ inȱtheȱthoughtȱstructure?ȱSoȱ itȱwonȇtȱharmȱthatȱmuchȱ ifȱtheyȱgoȱ backȱin,ȱbecauseȱtheyȇreȱalreadyȱinȱthere.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱweȇreȱbringingȱoutȱtheȱassumptionȱandȱweȱmayȱthenȱformȱaȱ newȱ reflexȱ andȱmakeȱ aȱhabitȱofȱ it.ȱWeȱ couldȱgoȱwrongȱ again.ȱButȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱthatȱweȇreȱjustȱlearningȱaboutȱitȱnow;ȱweȇreȱgoingȱintoȱit,ȱweȇreȱnotȱ actuallyȱtryingȱtoȱchangeȱit.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱcrucialȱpoint.ȱIfȱweȱonceȱthinkȱweȱ areȱ tryingȱ toȱchangeȱ itȱ thenȱweȱgetȱ intoȱallȱ theȱ tangleȱofȱquestions.ȱButȱ weȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ whateverȱ happensȱ isȱ gristȱ forȱ theȱ mill.ȱ Andȱ ifȱ itȱ happensȱthatȱyouȱformȱaȱnewȱreflex,ȱthenȱyouȱcanȱlearnȱaboutȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱAȱlotȱofȱtimesȱIȱlookȱatȱitȱtheȱotherȱwayȱaroundȱȬȱthatȱweȇreȱnotȱawareȱ ofȱtheȱintentionsȱoutȱofȱwhichȱtheȱthoughtsȱcome.ȱItȱseemsȱaȱlittleȱstrangeȱ toȱmeȱtoȱputȱtheȱemphasisȱonȱtheȱthought.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Manyȱ ofȱ ourȱ intentionsȱ areȱ reflexive;ȱ theyȱ justȱ comeȱ outȱ automatically.ȱTheyȇreȱcomingȱfromȱreflexes,ȱwhoseȱbasisȱisȱthought.ȱTheȱ intentionȱisȱimplicitȱinȱtheȱthought.ȱYouȱwillȱbeȱimpelledȱtoȱdoȱsomethingȱ ifȱ somethingȱ isȱ ȇnecessaryȇ.ȱ Ifȱ somebodyȱ saysȱ ȇyouȱ mustȱ doȱ it,ȱ itȇsȱ necessaryȱ toȱ doȱ itȇ,ȱ orȱ ȇdoingȱ thisȱwillȱ giveȱ youȱ somethingȱ youȱ reallyȱ wantȇ,ȱthenȱfromȱthatȱthoughtȱyouȱwillȱgetȱtheȱintentionȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱ

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Weȱhaveȱ theȱpictureȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ ȇsomebodyȇȱ insideȱusȱwhoȱ isȱgivenȱallȱ thisȱinformationȱandȱthenȱdecidesȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱintentionȱtoȱdoȱsomethingȱ basedȱonȱthat.ȱIȇmȱsuggesting,ȱhowever,ȱthatȱthatȱisȱnotȱso.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȇmȱ thinkingȱ ofȱ casesȱwhereȱ theȱ personȱ forȱ someȱ reasonȱ hasȱ toȱ doȱ somethingȱandȱthenȱwillȱgenerateȱthoughtsȱthatȱjustifyȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱtheȱnextȱstep.ȱHeȱmayȱhaveȱoneȱthoughtȱsayingȱ ȇIȱmustȱdoȱ thisȇ.ȱHeȱhasȱanotherȱthoughtȱsayingȱȇitȱwouldȱbeȱwrongȱtoȱdoȱitȇ.ȱAndȱheȱ getsȱaȱ thirdȱ thoughtȱwhichȱ justifiesȱ itȱanyway.ȱTheȱwholeȱ thingȱ isȱoneȱ reflexȱ afterȱ another.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ seeȱ thisȱ systemȱ justȱworking,ȱ working,ȱworking.ȱNow,ȱperhapsȱsomehowȱintelligenceȱcanȱcomeȱinȱandȱ getȱusȱoutȱofȱthis.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱasȱ longȱasȱtheȱsystemȱworks,ȱyouȱ donȇtȱknowȱwhatȱ isȱhappeningȱanyȱmoreȱ thanȱyouȱknowȱwhyȱyourȱ legȱ shouldȱjumpȱwhenȱtheȱkneeȱboneȱisȱhit.ȱ

Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ systemȱ isȱ workingȱ byȱ itselfȱ reflexively,ȱ mechanically,ȱbutȱitȱgivesȱtheȱimpressionȱthatȱthereȇsȱaȱȇmeȇȱasȱaȱcentre?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱTheȱsystemȱcontainsȱaȱreflexȱwhichȱproducesȱtheȱthoughtȱthatȱ itȱ isȱ Iȱ whoȱ amȱ doingȱ everything.ȱ Itȱ hasȱ aȱ veryȱ elaborateȱ systemȱ ofȱ coveringȱupȱwhatȱisȱhappening.ȱWeȇllȱgoȱintoȱthat,ȱbutȱitȱwillȱtakeȱsomeȱ timeȱtoȱdoȱso;ȱandȱIȱthinkȱweȱshouldȱgoȱonȱfromȱhereȱifȱnobodyȱhasȱanyȱ urgentȱquestion.ȱ

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Iȱwantedȱtoȱsayȱmoreȱaboutȱthought.ȱThoughtȱisȱincomplete.ȱTheȱthoughtȱ ofȱ theȱ tableȱdoesnȇtȱ coverȱ allȱ aboutȱ theȱ table.ȱ Itȱpicksȱupȱ aȱ fewȱpointsȱ aboutȱit.ȱButȱclearlyȱtheȱtableȱactuallyȱinvolvesȱaȱvastȱnumberȱofȱthingsȱȬȱ itsȱatomicȱconstitution,ȱallȱsortsȱofȱstructureȱinsideȱtheȱmaterial,ȱhowȱitȇsȱ allȱ relatedȱ toȱ everything,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱOurȱ thoughtȱ ofȱ itȱ asȱ aȱ tableȱ isȱ aȱ simplification,ȱorȱanȱȇabstractionȇ.ȱ

Oneȱwayȱofȱlookingȱatȱitȱisȱtoȱsayȱthatȱthoughtȱprovidesȱaȱrepresentationȱ ofȱwhatȱyouȇreȱthinkingȱaboutȱȬȱtheȱwayȱanȱartistȱmakesȱaȱpictureȱwhichȱ representsȱ somebodyȱ butȱ isnȇtȱ somebodyȱ atȱ all.ȱ Sometimesȱ aȱ fewȱ littleȱ linesȱareȱ enoughȱ toȱ representȱ thatȱperson,ȱbutȱ clearlyȱ theȱpersonȱ isȱ farȱ moreȱ thanȱ that;ȱ thereȱ isȱ anȱ immenseȱ amountȱ whichȱ isȱ notȱ inȱ theȱ representation.ȱ Likewise,ȱ thoughtȱ doesȱ notȱ provideȱ completeȱ informationȱorȱaȱcompleteȱpictureȱorȱaccountȱofȱtheȱthingȱitȱisȱsupposedȱ toȱbeȱabout.ȱTheȱthoughtȱofȱtheȱtableȱhasȱonlyȱaȱfewȱsalientȱfeatures,ȱandȱ alsoȱ itȇsȱ somewhatȱ ambiguous;ȱ theȱ thoughtȱ ofȱ ȇtableȇȱ includesȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ possibleȱ thingsȱ thatȱmightȱbeȱ tables,ȱsuchȱasȱallȱsortsȱofȱstrangeȱshapesȱ andȱ sizes.ȱAndȱ then,ȱ occasionally,ȱ somethingȱ comesȱ alongȱwhichȱ youȱ wouldnȇtȱ expectȱ toȱ beȱ usedȱ asȱ aȱ table.ȱ Thoughtȱ isȱ constantlyȱ addingȱ differentȱformsȱandȱshapesȱandȱsuch.ȱ

TheȱexampleȱIȇveȱgivenȱ isȱthatȱtheȱwordȱ ȇtableȇȱcallsȱupȱaȱrepresentationȱ inȱ yourȱ mindȱ ofȱ anȱ imageȱ ofȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱ typicalȱ table.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ countlessȱformsȱanȱactualȱtableȱcouldȱtake.ȱWhenȱyouȱseeȱanȱobjectȱwhichȱ fitsȱ oneȱ ofȱ thoseȱ formsȱ orȱ somewhereȱ betweenȱ thoseȱ formsȱ youȱmayȱ immediatelyȱrecognizeȱit;ȱorȱifȱitȱisȱsimilarȱtoȱthoseȱforms,ȱevenȱinȱsomeȱ vagueȱway,ȱ thenȱ itȱmayȱ stillȱ callȱ upȱ theȱ notionȱ ofȱ table,ȱ orȱ theȱwordȱ ȇtableȇ.ȱ Youȱ canȱ seeȱ thatȱ thatȇsȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ reflex.ȱ Theȱ variousȱ representationsȱofȱȇtableȇȱareȱallȱputȱtogether.ȱSoȱwhenȱyouȱlookȱatȱaȱtableȱ thereȱ isȱaȱreflexȱ inȱyourȱmind.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱactuallyȱutterȱ theȱwordȱ ȇtableȇ,ȱ

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butȱthereȇsȱaȱpotentialȱreflex:ȱȇthatȇsȱaȱtableȇ.ȱIfȱsomebodyȱwereȱtoȱaskȱyou,ȱ youȱwouldȱ immediatelyȱsayȱ ȇthatȱ isȱaȱtableȇ.ȱTheȱ informationȱ isȱthereȱ inȱ yourȱmind,ȱalreadyȱonȱtap.ȱ

Therefore,ȱaȱthingȱisȱrecognizedȱbyȱtheȱfactȱthatȱitȱwouldȱfitȱaȱparticularȱ representationȱ Ȭȱ itȱ wouldȱ beȱ oneȱ ofȱ theȱ possibleȱ formsȱ ofȱ thatȱ representation.ȱ Andȱ anyȱ formȱ ofȱ thatȱ willȱ operateȱ theȱ reflex,ȱ andȱ consequentlyȱyouȱ recognizeȱ it.ȱThenȱwhenȱyouȱ thinkȱaboutȱ it,ȱyouȱ canȱ thinkȱofȱallȱtheȱthingsȱthatȱareȱattributedȱtoȱitȱandȱassociatedȱwithȱit,ȱandȱ alsoȱ connectȱ upȱ toȱ otherȱ reflexes.ȱ Everythingȱ youȱ thinkȱ aboutȱ isȱ connectedȱtoȱreflexesȱwhichȱwillȱinvolveȱwhatȱyouȱcanȱdoȱwithȱit.ȱInȱtheȱ exampleȱ ofȱ theȱ table,ȱ theȱ representationȱ ofȱ theȱ tableȱ inȱ yourȱmindȱ isȱ connectedȱ toȱreflexesȱ involvingȱwhatȱyouȱcanȱdoȱ toȱ theȱ tableȱ Ȭȱ thatȱyouȱ canȱputȱthingsȱonȱit,ȱorȱwhatever.ȱSoȱyouȱareȱalreadyȱautomaticallyȱreadyȱ toȱputȱsomethingȱonȱthereȱifȱtheȱoccasionȱarises.ȱ

Canȱyouȱseeȱhowȱitȇsȱallȱconnectedȱup?ȱTheȱintellectualȱreflexesȱandȱtheȱ visualȱreflexesȱandȱtheȱemotionalȱandȱtheȱphysicalȱandȱtheȱchemicalȱandȱ everythingȱareȱallȱ connectedȱup,ȱ soȱ thatȱyouȱareȱ readyȱ immediatelyȱ toȱ takeȱaction.ȱIfȱitȱturnsȱoutȱthatȱtheȱobjectȱisȱnotȱaȱtable,ȱitȱwonȇtȱdoȱwhatȱ youȱ expect.ȱ Thenȱ youȱ sayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ incoherent.ȱ Andȱ ifȱ yourȱ mindȱ isȱ workingȱ rightȱ youȱ say:ȱ ȇSomethingȱ isȱ wrong.ȱ Iȇveȱ gotȱ toȱ changeȱ something.ȇȱ

Thatȇsȱ theȱwayȱ thoughtȱworks.ȱ Itȱgivesȱyouȱvastȱamountsȱofȱconnected,ȱ logicallyȱinterrelatedȱinformationȱAlso,ȱtheȱsymbolȱisȱsomewhatȱopen,ȱitȇsȱ ambiguous.ȱ Theȱ wordȱ ȇtableȇȱ isȱ theȱ symbol,ȱ whoseȱ meaningȱ isȱ ambiguous.ȱ Itȱcanȱ includeȱallȱsortsȱofȱotherȱ things.ȱ Itȱhasȱaȱ tremendousȱ potentialȱforȱconnectingȱthingsȱup.ȱ

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Youȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱ earliestȱ thoughtsȱ beforeȱ thereȱ wasȱ languageȱ wouldȱprobablyȱhaveȱ involvedȱ images.ȱSomebodyȱraisedȱ thatȱquestion:ȱ thatȱ beforeȱ aȱ childȱ canȱ useȱ words,ȱ itȱ probablyȱ usesȱ vaguelyȱ definedȱ imagesȱtoȱstandȱinȱforȱtheȱthingsȱitȇsȱthinkingȱabout.ȱForȱinstance,ȱanimalsȱ willȱseeȱaȱpartȱofȱanȱobjectȱandȱexpectȱtheȱwhole,ȱandȱsoȱwillȱveryȱyoungȱ children.ȱ Itȱseemsȱclearȱ thatȱpartȱofȱ theȱobjectȱcanȱcallȱupȱ theȱwhole,ȱorȱ objectsȱthatȱareȱvaguelyȱsimilarȱcouldȱcallȱupȱtheȱwholeȱclass.ȱItȱmakesȱaȱ reflexȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ symbolȱmakesȱ aȱ newȱ reflexȱwhichȱ connectsȱ allȱ theȱ otherȱ reflexes.ȱEveryoneȱofȱtheseȱobjectsȱthatȱtheȱsymbolȱcanȱstandȱinȱforȱhasȱinȱ itselfȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ ofȱ whatȱ youȱ canȱ doȱ withȱ it,ȱ andȱ thatȱ symbolȱ connectsȱitȱall.ȱItȇsȱanotherȱreflexȱwhichȱconnectsȱallȱthoseȱreflexes.ȱ

Soȱyouȱbeginȱ toȱseeȱ thoughtȱorganizingȱ itselfȱ intoȱaȱveryȱcomplex,ȱ richȱ structure.ȱ Iȇveȱ hardlyȱ begunȱ toȱ touchȱ onȱ it;ȱ itȱ includesȱ thought,ȱ logic,ȱ reason,ȱ etc.ȱ Youȱ formȱ veryȱ abstractȱ symbols.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱweȱ talkedȱ todayȱaboutȱtheȱsymbolȱofȱnecessityȱandȱcontingencyȱȬȱtheȱtwoȱwords.ȱIfȱ youȱ askȱ ȇwhatȱ areȱ they?ȇȱ youȱ areȱ unableȱ toȱ imagineȱwhatȱ theyȱ are.ȱ Iȱ mean,ȱyouȱhaveȱnoȱpictureȱofȱwhatȱ isȱnecessityȱorȱwhatȱ isȱcontingency,ȱ butȱ youȱ haveȱ aȱ vastȱ numberȱ ofȱ thingsȱ withȱ whichȱ thoseȱ wordsȱ willȱ connect.ȱAndȱanyȱtimeȱyouȱwantȱtoȱbringȱorderȱintoȱwhatȱyouȱareȱseeing,ȱ oneȱofȱtheȱthingsȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱdoȱisȱsortȱoutȱwhatȱisȱnecessaryȱandȱwhatȱisȱ contingentȱinȱthatȱparticularȱsituation.ȱ

Anotherȱsetȱofȱveryȱabstractȱthingsȱisȱtheȱgeneralȱandȱtheȱparticular.ȱTheȱ generalȱisȱtheȱreflexȱofȱinclusiveȱandȱtheȱparticularȱnarrowsȱitȱdown.ȱAndȱ youȱtreatȱthingsȱbyȱtheȱgeneralȱandȱtheȱparticular.ȱThisȱtableȱisȱsomethingȱ general,ȱbutȱtheȱparticularȱisȱalsoȱworkedȱout;ȱtheȱtableȱisȱmadeȱofȱwood,ȱ itȱisȱaȱcertainȱshape,ȱitȇsȱrightȱhere,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱThereȱareȱaȱvastȱnumberȱ ofȱthings.ȱAndȱifȱyouȱwereȱtoȱtryȱtoȱfindȱoutȱhowȱallȱthisȱthoughtȱprocessȱ works,ȱyouȱcouldȱprobablyȱspendȱaȱlifetimeȱandȱstillȱnotȱgetȱthere.ȱIȱsayȱ

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thisȱtoȱshowȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱnotȱjustȱtheȱculprit,ȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱnotȱpureȱ wickedness.ȱWeȱhaveȱthisȱwholeȱveryȱsubtleȱandȱveryȱcomplexȱstructureȱ ȬȱwhichȱweȱprobablyȱknowȱveryȱlittleȱaboutȱȬȱthatȱdoesȱeverythingȱforȱus.ȱ Thoughtȱisȱpartȱofȱaȱsystemȱwhichȱincludesȱallȱourȱreflexes,ȱourȱrelationsȱ toȱotherȱpeople,ȱallȱthatȱweȱdo,ȱallȱourȱsociety,ȱandȱeverything.ȱButȱitȱhasȱ aȱflawȱinȱit.ȱ

Asȱ Iȱ said,ȱ thoughtȱ worksȱ byȱ representationȱ Ȭȱ byȱ aȱ symbolȱ andȱ byȱ aȱ representation.ȱAȱ symbolȱ standsȱ inȱ forȱ theȱ thing.ȱAȱwordȱ isȱ aȱ symbol.ȱ Youȱ canȱ useȱ simplifiedȱ imagesȱ asȱ symbols.ȱ Theȱ Chineseȱ ideographicȱ languageȱcameȱoriginallyȱfromȱpictures,ȱandȱtheyȱwereȱfinallyȱsimplifiedȱ andȱ becameȱ mereȱ symbols.ȱ Butȱ theȱ alphabeticȱ symbolȱ isȱ stillȱ moreȱ powerful,ȱ becauseȱ itȱneedȱhaveȱnoȱ resemblanceȱwhatsoeverȱ toȱwhatȱ itȱ represents.ȱItȇsȱfarȱmoreȱflexible.ȱSuchȱisȱtheȱpowerȱofȱlanguage.ȱ

Youȱ haveȱ innumerableȱ symbols,ȱ andȱ theȱ symbolȱ producesȱ aȱ representation;ȱitȱpresentsȱtheȱthingȱagain,ȱasȱitȱwere.ȱItȱgivesȱyouȱaȱkindȱ ofȱfeelingȱforȱit.ȱYouȱcan,ȱforȱinstance,ȱrepresentȱaȱhumanȱfaceȱbyȱaȱcircleȱ withȱtwoȱdotsȱandȱaȱlittleȱtriangleȱforȱtheȱnoseȱandȱthenȱaȱmouth.ȱIfȱtheȱ mouthȱisȱcurvedȱupȱitȱrepresentsȱaȱsmiling,ȱhappyȱperson;ȱifȱtheȱmouthȱisȱ curvedȱdownȱ itȱrepresentsȱsomebodyȱwhoȱ isȱunhappyȱandȱ frowning.ȱ Ifȱ youȱlookȱatȱthat,ȱyouȱwillȱgetȱtheȱfeelingȱofȱaȱsmiling,ȱhappyȱpersonȱorȱaȱ frowningȱ person.ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ representationȱ ofȱ theȱmeaningȱ ofȱ theȱ thing.ȱ

Andȱrepresentationsȱcanȱgetȱmoreȱandȱmoreȱdetailed,ȱbecomeȱmoreȱlikeȱ artistsȇȱ pictures.ȱ Theyȱmayȱ beȱ diagrams,ȱ theyȱmayȱ beȱ blueprints,ȱ theyȱ mayȱ beȱ allȱ typesȱ ofȱ things.ȱ Thatȇsȱ allȱ thoughtȱ takingȱ differentȱ forms.ȱ Everyȱoneȱofȱthoseȱthingsȱisȱthought.ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱkeepȱallȱthatȱinȱmind.ȱ

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Q:ȱThisȱlevelȱbelowȱtheȱverbal,ȱisȱitȱanotherȱsystemȱofȱsymbolsȱȬȱpictures,ȱ perhaps?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Picturesȱ orȱ lines.ȱ Veryȱ simplifiedȱ pictures,ȱ orȱ evenȱ blobs.ȱ Justȱ enoughȱthereȱtoȱstandȱinȱforȱsomething.ȱ

Andȱ itȱ wouldȱ seemȱ toȱ meȱ thatȱ aȱ childȱ whoȱ doesnȇtȱ yetȱ talkȱ couldȱ probablyȱ doȱ quiteȱ aȱ bitȱ ofȱ thinkingȱ throughȱ that.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ theȱ psychologistȱ Piagetȱ claimsȱ thatȱ aȱ childȱwhoȱ seesȱ anȱ objectȱ disappearȱ behindȱsomethingȱandȱthenȱreappearȱactsȱasȱifȱheȱthoughtȱthatȱtheȱobjectȱ hadȱ vanishedȱ andȱ aȱ newȱ objectȱ hadȱ appeared.ȱAndȱ atȱ someȱ stageȱ heȱ learnsȱthatȱitȱisȱtheȱsameȱobject;ȱbutȱtoȱdoȱthatȱheȱmustȱhaveȱaȱsymbolȱforȱ thatȱobject,ȱbecauseȱheȱdoesnȇtȱyetȱtalk.ȱHeȱcouldȱhaveȱaȱvagueȱpictureȱofȱ aȱblobȱȬȱheȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱexactȱpictureȱofȱtheȱobject.ȱ

Soȱthereȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱpreverbalȱsymbol,ȱandȱthereȱmayȱbeȱothersȱthatȱweȱ donȇtȱknowȱabout.ȱLanguageȱ isȱonȱtopȱofȱallȱthis.ȱButȱwhenȱweȱ learnȱtoȱ talkȱweȱ forgetȱ this,ȱandȱweȱdonȇtȱ recognizeȱ thatȱ theseȱ symbolsȱareȱ stillȱ partȱofȱourȱthought.ȱTheyȱseemȱtoȱbeȱsomethingȱelse.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ thisȱwhatȱ youȱwereȱ speakingȱ aboutȱ earlierȱ inȱ termsȱ ofȱ bringingȱ theseȱthingsȱupȱintoȱtheȱverbalȱandȱunderstandingȱthem?ȱ

Bohm:ȱAtȱleastȱgettingȱaȱlookȱatȱthem.ȱ

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Q:ȱAsȱyouȱ talkȱaboutȱ thisȱ itȱ seemsȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ true,ȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱ thisȱwholeȱ underlyingȱlevelȱofȱpicturesȱgoingȱon.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAndȱ feelingsȱasȱwell.ȱYouȱ see,ȱEinsteinȱdidnȇtȱ talkȱuntilȱheȱwasȱ fairlyȱold.ȱAndȱheȱsaidȱthatȱaȱ lotȱofȱhisȱthoughtȱconsistedȱofȱfeelingsȱheȱ couldnȇtȱdescribe,ȱwhichȱmayȱhaveȱtakenȱtheȱplaceȱofȱaȱcertainȱamountȱofȱ verbalȱ thought.ȱ Thereforeȱ youȱ mightȱ imagineȱ thatȱ aȱ littleȱ childȱ sometimesȱrepresentsȱthingsȱbyȱfeelings.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱyouȱstartȱtoȱbringȱtheseȱupȱandȱverbalizeȱthemȱitȱseemsȱtoȱelicitȱ someȱ levelȱofȱclarity.ȱTheyȱmayȱbeȱmissedȱotherwise.ȱButȱareȱweȱ toȱbeȱ selectiveȱ aboutȱ this?ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ toȱ beȱ goingȱ onȱ allȱ theȱ time.ȱ Canȱ weȱ constantlyȱbeȱbringingȱtheseȱup?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo,ȱweȱcanȇt.ȱWeȇreȱ justȱlearningȱaboutȱit.ȱWeȇreȱnotȱtryingȱtoȱdoȱ anything.ȱItȇsȱcrucialȱtoȱseeȱthatȱweȇreȱnotȱtryingȱtoȱachieveȱanȱobjective;ȱ weȱ donȇtȱ haveȱ aȱ programmeȱ orȱ aȱ goalȱ thatȱweȱ couldȱ define.ȱWeȱ areȱ learning.ȱIȇmȱtryingȱtoȱsayȱthatȱhereȱisȱsomethingȱweȱdidnȇtȱknowȱaboutȱ thisȱprocess.ȱItȱmayȱbeȱrelevant,ȱitȱmayȱnot.ȱTheȱfactȱthatȱweȱknowȱitȱmayȱ turnȱoutȱtoȱbeȱhelpfulȱ inȱsomeȱcontext.ȱAndȱweȱmayȱbeȱableȱtoȱobserveȱ someȱofȱ itȱbyȱbringingȱ itȱup.ȱByȱbringingȱ itȱ intoȱwordsȱweȱmightȱgetȱaȱ connectionȱ toȱ someȱofȱ theȱotherȱaspectsȱofȱ theȱprocessȱandȱgetȱaȱbetterȱ

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feelingȱ forȱhowȱ itȱ isȱworking.ȱOneȱ ofȱ theȱ troublesȱ isȱ thatȱ thisȱ thoughtȱ processȱ isȱ goingȱ onȱ andȱweȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ atȱ allȱ howȱ itȇsȱworking.ȱAndȱ whenȱweȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ howȱ itȱ isȱworkingȱweȱ veryȱ quicklyȱ regardȱ itȱ asȱ somethingȱelse:ȱasȱnonȬthought.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱweȇreȱdoingȱisȱmakingȱaȱbetterȱmap.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ

Asȱ Iȇveȱ pointedȱ out,ȱ oneȱ ofȱ theȱ keyȱ difficultiesȱ hasȱ alwaysȱ beenȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ doesȱ somethingȱ andȱ thenȱ saysȱ thatȱ whatȱ itȱ isȱ doingȱ isȱ notȱ thought.ȱ Thoughtȱ createsȱ aȱ problemȱ andȱ thenȱ triesȱ toȱ doȱ somethingȱ aboutȱitȱwhileȱcontinuingȱtoȱmakeȱtheȱproblem,ȱbecauseȱitȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱ whatȱitȱisȱdoing.ȱItȇsȱallȱaȱbunchȱofȱreflexesȱworking.ȱ

Rememberȱthatȱ ȇthoughtȇȱisȱaȱpastȱparticle.ȱItȇsȱwhatȱhasȱbeenȱregisteredȱ inȱtheȱmemory.ȱThatȱregistrationȱisȱthroughȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexes;ȱsoȱwheneverȱ aȱ formȱ appearsȱwhichȱ fitsȱ thatȱwholeȱ setȱ thatȱ symbolicȱ representationȱ willȱstandȱinȱforȱwhateverȱfitsȱactuallyȱbeingȱperceived.ȱForȱexample,ȱifȱitȱ fitsȱ theȱ representationsȱ thatȱwouldȱ beȱ broughtȱ upȱ byȱ theȱwordȱ ȇtableȇȱ thenȱyouȱgetȱallȱtheȱreflexesȱtoȱtheȱtableȱrightȱaway,ȱwhichȱmakesȱitȱveryȱ useful.ȱButȱyouȱcanȱalsoȱmakeȱaȱmistakeȱandȱmakeȱaȱwrongȱmovement;ȱ thenȱyouȱareȱincoherentȱandȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱsay:ȱȇOK,ȱitȇsȱwrong.ȱIȇveȱgotȱtoȱ goȱoverȱit.ȇȱ

Iȇmȱ discussingȱ howȱ thoughtȱwouldȱ properlyȱworkȱ Ȭȱ andȱ doesȱ inȱ factȱ workȱ inȱmanyȱ areasȱ Ȭȱ first,ȱ toȱ showȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ notȱ allȱ bad;ȱ andȱ

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second,ȱ becauseȱ toȱunderstandȱwhatȱ hasȱ goneȱwrongȱweȱ shouldȱ haveȱ someȱunderstandingȱofȱhowȱitȱwouldȱworkȱwhenȱitȱisȱright.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthisȱtheȱdifferenceȱbetweenȱthinkingȱandȱthoughtȱasȱyouȱdescribedȱ earlier?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThoughtȱjustȱworksȱautomatically.ȱButȱwhenȱyouȇreȱthinking,ȱyouȱ areȱreadyȱtoȱseeȱwhenȱitȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱandȱyouȇreȱreadyȱtoȱstartȱchangingȱ it.ȱ ȇThinkingȇȱmeansȱthatȱwhenȱtheȱthingȱ isnȇtȱworking,ȱsomethingȱmoreȱ isȱ comingȱ inȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ isȱ readyȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ theȱ situationȱ andȱ changeȱ theȱ thoughtȱifȱnecessary.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthinkingȱanȱelementȱthatȇsȱoutsideȱofȱthought?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱaȱbitȱbeyondȱ thought.ȱLetȇsȱputȱ itȱ thatȱ thinkingȱ isȱnotȱpurelyȱ theȱpast;ȱitȇsȱnotȱpurelyȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexesȱinȱtheȱpast.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Wouldȱ thinkingȱ beȱ moreȱ ȇofȱ theȱ momentȇ,ȱ moreȱ energized,ȱ andȱ thoughtȱmoreȱpassiveȱinȱtheȱpast?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱpastȱisȱactive.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱtrouble.ȱTheȱpastȱisȱnotȱreallyȱtheȱpastȱ Ȭȱ itȇsȱtheȱeffectȱofȱtheȱpastȱ inȱtheȱpresent.ȱTheȱpastȱhasȱleftȱaȱtraceȱ inȱtheȱ present.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱtheȱthinkingȱwouldȱbeȱevenȱmoreȱenergized?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Theȱ thinkingȱwillȱ beȱmoreȱ energizedȱ becauseȱ thinkingȱ isȱ moreȱ directlyȱ inȱ theȱ presentȱ becauseȱ itȱ includesȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ thatȱ thoughtȱisȱactuallyȱmaking.ȱItȱmayȱalsoȱincludeȱallowingȱnewȱreflexesȱtoȱ form,ȱ newȱ arrangements,ȱ newȱ ideas.ȱ Ifȱ theȱ reflexesȱ areȱ allȱ somewhatȱ openȱandȱflexibleȱandȱchangeable,ȱthenȱitȱwillȱworkȱnicely.ȱ

Q:ȱ Ifȱ Iȱ understandȱ youȱ clearly,ȱ youȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ byȱ lookingȱ atȱ theseȱ primalȱfeelingsȱandȱthoughtsȱandȱimages,ȱweȱhaveȱaȱcertainȱopportunityȱ toȱlookȱatȱthemȱagainȱwithȱmoreȱenergy.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱWeȱseeȱthemȱrightȱthere,ȱandȱweȱareȱableȱtoȱlookȱatȱthemȱwithȱ somethingȱwhichȱmayȱ beȱ beyondȱ theȱ conditioning.ȱ Thenȱ theȱwayȱweȱ

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lookȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱentirelyȱconditioned,ȱthereforeȱweȱsayȱitȇsȱmoreȱalive,ȱ orȱwhatever.ȱWeȇreȱsayingȱthatȱweȱneedȱtoȱlookȱinȱthisȱwayȱbecauseȱitȱisȱ veryȱimportantȱtoȱcomeȱintoȱactualȱcontactȱwithȱthisȱsystemȱwhichȱreallyȱ rulesȱourȱ lives.ȱItȇsȱveryȱnecessaryȱ ȬȱIȇveȱexplainedȱallȱtheȱgoodȱthingsȱ itȱ canȱdo,ȱandȱhowȱitȱworksȱwhenȱitȱworksȱproperly,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱ Canȱ thoughtȱ deceiveȱ usȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ thinkingȱ whenȱ itȱ isȱ notȱ reallyȱ thinking?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱcanȱdeceiveȱusȱaboutȱanythingȱandȱeverything.ȱThereȱisȱnoȱlimitȱ toȱ itsȱ powerȱ ofȱ deception.ȱ Youȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ everyȱ trickȱ weȱ know,ȱ thoughtȱknowsȱ inȱ theȱnextȱmoment.ȱ Ifȱweȱ seeȱaȱ trick,ȱ thenȱ inȱ theȱnextȱ momentȱthoughtȱhasȱitȱthereȱinȱtheȱreflexes.ȱInȱotherȱwords,ȱthoughtȱisȱusȱ Ȭȱthoughtȱisȱnotȱdifferentȱfromȱus.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱareȱtheȱdeceiversȱandȱweȱareȱtheȱdeception.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ thoughtȱ canȱdoȱ allȱ thatȱdeception.ȱButȱ Iȇveȱdiscussedȱ howȱ thoughtȱworksȱwhenȱ itȱ isȱ notȱ deceiving.ȱAndȱ itȱ getsȱ intoȱ thisȱ troubleȱ whichȱcomesȱforȱmanyȱreasons.ȱItȇsȱhardȱtoȱanalyseȱit.ȱOneȱreasonȱisȱthatȱ ultimatelyȱtheȱchemistryȱ isȱtooȱrigid,ȱallȱtheseȱconnectionsȱareȱtooȱrigid.ȱ Orȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ thoughtȱofȱabsoluteȱnecessity,ȱwhichȱ providesȱaȱholdȱonȱtheȱwholeȱthing.ȱButȱtheyȱallȱworkȱtogether.ȱ

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Q:ȱHowȱisȱabsoluteȱnecessityȱdifferent?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThereȱcouldȱbeȱaȱviewȱofȱabsoluteȱnecessityȱasȱ justȱaȱperception,ȱ sayingȱthatȱatȱthisȱmomentȱyouȱclearlyȱhaveȱtoȱdoȱaȱparticularȱaction.ȱButȱ supposeȱ youȱ alsoȱ sayȱ ȇitȇsȱ absolutelyȱ necessaryȱ forȱmeȱ toȱ achieveȱmyȱ ambition,ȱorȱtoȱdoȱvariousȱthingsȇ.ȱThatȱmayȱbeȱtheȱpastȱȬȱitȱmayȱbeȱthisȱ wholeȱsystemȱsayingȱthat.ȱ

Soȱweȱhaveȱ thisȱ situation:ȱ thoughtȱprovidesȱ representations,ȱwhichȱweȱ canȱ produce,ȱ outsideȱ orȱ inside,ȱ asȱ symbolsȱ thatȱweȱ canȱ communicate,ȱ andȱwhichȱalsoȱholdȱeverythingȱtogetherȱandȱconnectȱeverything.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱtheȱmassȱmedia?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱmassȱmediaȱcarryȱthemȱall.ȱTheyȱdisseminateȱthem.ȱThatȇsȱaȱ goodȱwordȱȬȱȇdisseminateȇ.ȱTheȱsymbolsȱactȱlikeȱseeds.ȱTheȱmediaȱscatterȱ them,ȱandȱthenȱthoseȱrepresentationsȱallȱbecomeȱseedsȱofȱfurtherȱreflexes.ȱ Forȱ theȱpeopleȱwhoȱ receiveȱ themȱ theyȱbecomeȱnewȱ reflexesȱ Ȭȱ theyȱ takeȱ rootȱandȱbecomeȱnewȱreflexes.ȱThatȇsȱallȱaȱsystem.ȱ

Andȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱinherentlyȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱincomplete.ȱItȱcanȱ atȱbestȱprovideȱanȱabstractȱ representation,ȱ itȱwillȱnotȱ containȱ theȱ thingȱ itself.ȱTheȱ thingȱ itselfȱ isȱnotȱonlyȱmoreȱ thanȱ couldȱbeȱ containedȱ inȱ theȱ

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representation;ȱbutȱadditionally,ȱ thoughtȱ isȱnotȱalwaysȱ right.ȱTheȱ thingȱ itselfȱisȱalwaysȱinȱsomeȱwayȱdifferentȱfromȱwhatȱweȱthinkȱitȱis.ȱItȱisȱneverȱ exactlyȱwhatȱweȱthink.ȱ

Also,ȱ someȱ ofȱ ourȱ thoughtȱ isȱmistakenȱwhenȱ extended.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ peopleȱ believedȱ thatȱNewtonȇsȱ lawsȱwouldȱ holdȱ foreverȱ becauseȱ theyȱ heldȱ forȱseveralȱhundredȱyears.ȱAndȱyetȱquantumȱ theoryȱandȱrelativityȱ cameȱinȱandȱoverturnedȱthem.ȱDuringȱtheȱlateȱnineteenthȱcentury,ȱLordȱ Kelvin,ȱoneȱofȱ theȱ leadingȱ theoreticalȱphysicists,ȱsaidȱ thatȱ itȱwasȱnoȱuseȱ forȱyoungȱpeopleȱ toȱgoȱ intoȱ theoreticalȱphysics.ȱHeȱ saidȱ thatȱ theȱmajorȱ discoveriesȱofȱphysicsȱwereȱfinished,ȱandȱthatȱwhatȱwasȱ leftȱwasȱonlyȱaȱ matterȱofȱ refinementsȱandȱ theȱnextȱdecimalȱpoints.ȱHowever,ȱ theȱ thingȱ didnȇtȱworkȱoutȱthatȱway.ȱNevertheless,ȱsomeȱphysicistsȱnowȱtalkȱaboutȱ aȱ ȇtheoryȱ ofȱ everythingȇ.ȱ Theyȱ donȇtȱ haveȱ itȱ butȱ theyȱ sayȱ thatȱ theyȇreȱ goingȱtoȱhaveȱit,ȱtheyȱexpectȱit.ȱ

Thoughtȱ isȱalwaysȱ tryingȱ toȱclaimȱ thatȱ itȱknowsȱeverything.ȱ Itȱhasȱ thatȱ tendencyȱ inȱ it,ȱ andȱ weȱ haveȱ toȱ sayȱ why.ȱ Thisȱ isȱ aȱ veryȱ dangerousȱ tendency,ȱ whichȱ leadsȱ toȱ selfȬdeception.ȱ Itȱ doesnȇtȱ leaveȱ openȱ theȱ unknown.ȱItȱdoesnȇtȱleaveȱopenȱthatȱtheȱthoughtȱisȱonlyȱaȱrepresentation.ȱ Andȱ youȱmustȱ leaveȱ roomȱ inȱ yourȱ thoughtȱ forȱ somethingȱmoreȱ andȱ somethingȱ different.ȱ Healthyȱ thoughtȱ requiresȱ thatȱ itȱ intrinsicallyȱ beȱ builtȱ soȱ thatȱ itȱalwaysȱhasȱ roomȱ forȱ that.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱwhateverȱ theȱ representationȱ is,ȱ itȱ couldȱbeȱ somethingȱmoreȱandȱ somethingȱdifferent.ȱ Atȱmostȱweȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ asȱ farȱ asȱweȱknowȱ aȱ certainȱ representationȱ mayȱbeȱaccurateȬȱThatȱ leavesȱ roomȱ forȱsomethingȱmoreȱandȱsomethingȱ different.ȱNow,ȱthatȱwouldȱbeȱhealthyȱthought,ȱproperȱthought.ȱOrderlyȱ thoughtȱwouldȱhaveȱtoȱhaveȱthatȱformȱandȱstructure.ȱ

Butȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱourȱthoughtȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱthat.ȱForȱexample,ȱreligiousȱ thoughtȱoftenȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱit.ȱAȱlotȱofȱourȱpoliticalȱthoughtȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱ

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it.ȱEvenȱaȱlotȱofȱourȱscientificȱthought,ȱasȱIȇveȱjustȱexplained,ȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱ it.ȱThatȇsȱaȱcrucialȱpoint:ȱoneȱofȱ theȱwaysȱ thoughtȱgoesȱwrongȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ claims,ȱ implicitlyȱatȱ least,ȱ toȱbeȱableȱ toȱknowȱeverythingȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ itȱcouldȱ getȱridȱofȱuncertaintyȱandȱgetȱridȱofȱtheȱunknown.ȱThereȱisȱthisȱdriveȱinȱ thoughtȱtoȱsayȱthatȱitȱwillȱeventuallyȱgetȱholdȱofȱeverything.ȱIȱdonȇtȱknowȱ whetherȱ thatȱ driveȱ hasȱ alwaysȱ beenȱ there;ȱ butȱ itȱ isȱ there,ȱ andȱ asȱ civilizationȱdevelopsȱitȱseemsȱtoȱgetȱevenȱstronger.ȱ

Suchȱ thoughtȱ givesȱ aȱ senseȱ ofȱ security.ȱAȱ lotȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ isȱ aimedȱ atȱ increasingȱ ourȱ security.ȱ Andȱ inȱ aȱ legitimateȱwayȱ itȱ doesȱ provideȱ forȱ greaterȱsecurity.ȱWeȱuseȱthoughtȱtoȱstoreȱupȱfood,ȱtoȱacquireȱshelter,ȱandȱ doȱvariousȱotherȱthings.ȱButȱthenȱthoughtȱgraduallyȱbeginsȱtoȱextendȱandȱ say:ȱ ȇIȱ notȱ onlyȱ needȱ thatȱ kindȱ ofȱ security,ȱ Iȱ needȱ otherȱ kinds.ȱ Iȱ needȱ emotionalȱsecurity.ȱIȱneedȱrelationalȱsecurity.ȱIȱneedȱtoȱknowȱȬȱtoȱbeȱsureȱ ofȱ everything.ȇȱ Andȱ onceȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ security,ȱ thatȱ providesȱ forȱ theȱ endorphinsȱ toȱ coatȱ theȱpainȱnervesȱ andȱyouȱ feelȱgood.ȱButȱ asȱ soonȱ asȱ thatȇsȱ questioned,ȱ theȱ endorphinsȱ areȱ removedȱ andȱ theȱ nervesȱ getȱ allȱ excitedȱ andȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ driveȱ toȱ thinkȱ theȱ thoughtsȱ thatȱwillȱ giveȱ youȱ security,ȱsayingȱȱȇIȱknowȱitȱallȇ.ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱtheȱreflexȱsystem.ȱ

Therefore,ȱcanȱweȱstayȱwithȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ thoughtȱdoesȱnotȱknowȱ itȱall?ȱ Thereȱisȱalwaysȱuncertainty,ȱatȱleastȱasȱfarȱasȱweȱcanȱsee.ȱThereȱisȱalwaysȱ theȱunknown.ȱOurȱrepresentationsȱareȱadequateȱonlyȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint.ȱ

Forȱinstance,ȱaȱcircularȱtableȱlooksȱlikeȱanȱellipseȱfromȱvariousȱdirections.ȱ Butȱweȱknowȱthatȱthoseȱareȱallȱdifferentȱappearancesȱofȱaȱsingleȱcircularȱ form.ȱSoȱweȱ representȱ theȱ tableȱ asȱaȱ circle.ȱWeȱ sayȱ ȇthatȇsȱwhatȱ itȱ is,ȱ aȱ solidȱcircleȇ.ȱButȱthenȱscientistsȱcomeȱalongȱandȱsayȱȇThatȇsȱmostlyȱemptyȱ space;ȱitȱisȱatomsȱmovingȱaround.ȱItȇsȱreallyȱquiteȱdifferentȱfromȱtheȱsolidȱ circularȱobjectȱ itȱappearsȱ toȱbe.ȱ Itȇsȱonlyȱveryȱ roughlyȱaȱ circle.ȱAȱ cloudȱ mightȱlookȱlikeȱaȱcircle,ȱbutȱitȇsȱnot.ȇȱThusȱaccordingȱtoȱtheseȱscientistsȱtheȱ

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essenceȱ isȱ nowȱ theȱ atoms;ȱ theȱ circleȱ isȱ onlyȱ anȱ appearance.ȱ Butȱ then,ȱ ideasȱaboutȱtheȱatomȱ itselfȱhaveȱchangedȱoverȱtheȱyears.ȱOriginally,ȱtheȱ wordȱ ȇatomȇȱmeantȱsomethingȱthatȱcouldnȇtȱbeȱcut.ȱThenȱlaterȱphysicistsȱ saidȱanȱatomȱisȱmadeȱofȱelectronsȱandȱprotonsȱandȱneutronsȱandȱmostlyȱ emptyȱspaceȱ Ȭȱ theȱatomȱ isȱonlyȱanȱappearanceȱandȱ theseȱotherȱparticlesȱ areȱtheȱessence.ȱAndȱthenȱcameȱquarks.ȱAndȱthenȱcameȱotherȱthings.ȱ

Youȱ couldȱwonderȱ ifȱ theyȱareȱ everȱgoingȱ toȱ finishȱ this,ȱorȱwhetherȱ itȇsȱ alwaysȱ justȱaȱrepresentationȱ Ȭȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱadequateȱorȱnot.ȱThatȱ is,ȱ itȱ mayȱbeȱaȱcorrectȱrepresentationȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint.ȱIfȱitȇsȱcorrectȱitȱwillȱguideȱ usȱ coherently,ȱ toȱ theȱ extentȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ correct.ȱ Butȱ atȱ someȱ stage,ȱ sinceȱ representationȱ isȱ incomplete,ȱ itȱmustȱ ceaseȱ toȱguideȱusȱ coherently;ȱandȱ thenȱweȱneedȱtoȱchangeȱourȱthought.ȱ

Soȱ weȱ doȱ notȱ expectȱ toȱ findȱ someȱ eternalȱ truthȱ aboutȱ theȱ natureȱ ofȱ matter.ȱ Theȱ natureȱ ofȱmatterȱ asȱ farȱ asȱ weȱ canȱ seeȱ couldȱ beȱ infinite,ȱ unlimitedȱ Ȭȱ qualitativelyȱ asȱ wellȱ asȱ quantitatively.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ noȱ validȱ reasonȱ whyȱ weȱ shouldȱ thinkȱ ofȱ matterȱ asȱ limited.ȱ Inȱ theȱ nineteenthȱ centuryȱpeopleȱthoughtȱthatȱ itȱwasȱ limitedȱ inȱoneȱway.ȱInȱtheȱtwentiethȱ centuryȱweȱ nowȱ haveȱ differentȱ ideas.ȱ Andȱ inȱ theȱ twentyȬfirstȱ orȱ theȱ twentyȬsecondȱtheyȱmayȱthinkȱentirelyȱdifferently,ȱandȱtheyȱwillȱlookȱforȱ aȱ newȱ finalȱ theoryȱwhichȱ couldȱ beȱ veryȱ differentȱ fromȱwhatȱweȱ haveȱ now.ȱAndȱ thenȱ itȱmightȱgoȱonȱandȱon.ȱButȱ thereȱ isȱnoȱ justificationȱ forȱ that.ȱItȇsȱnotȱtheȱrightȱwayȱtoȱthink.ȱToȱthinkȱthatȱwayȱisȱgoingȱtoȱmixȱupȱ theȱthoughtȱprocess.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȇreȱsayingȱthatȱknowingȱcanȱneverȱbeȱabsolute?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Iȇveȱ focusedȱ onȱ matterȱ whereȱ weȱ haveȱ theȱ mostȱ solidȱ knowledgeȱwithȱscience,ȱandȱthatȱcannotȱbeȱabsolute.ȱAndȱthenȱifȱweȱgoȱ intoȱsocietyȱandȱintoȱtheȱpsyche,ȱandȱsoȱforth,ȱthatȱseemsȱfarȱlessȱdefiniteȱ thanȱtheȱscientificȱknowledgeȱofȱmatter.ȱThusȱweȱareȱsayingȱknowledgeȱ isȱlimited,ȱbecauseȱknowledgeȱisȱonlyȱaȱrepresentation.ȱKnowledgeȱmayȱ beȱadequate,ȱbutȱitȱisȱnotȱtheȱthingȱitself,ȱwhateverȱthatȱmayȱbe.ȱItȱisȱnotȱ ȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ.ȱ

ȱ ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱcouldȱjustȱcallȱitȱaȱview,ȱoneȱofȱmanyȱdifferentȱviews.ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Itȇsȱ anȱ appearanceȱ orȱ aȱ view,ȱ butȱ knowledgeȱ isȱ alsoȱ aȱ representationȱinȱtheȱsenseȱthatȱyouȱcanȱbringȱitȱupȱagainȱandȱagain.ȱItȱisȱ aȱreflexȱwhichȱgivesȱriseȱtoȱaȱview.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱkeepȱitȱopen,ȱratherȱthanȱasȱaȱclosedȱconclusion.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱright.ȱButȱthenȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱadmitȱthatȱweȱareȱnotȱgoingȱtoȱ getȱtheȱwholeȱofȱitȱȬȱthatȱtheȱunknownȱisȱalwaysȱopen.ȱItȱmustȱbeȱthatȱtheȱ unknownȱ isȱ farȱbeyondȱ theȱknown,ȱ immenselyȱbeyondȱ theȱknown.ȱTheȱ pointȱis:ȱknowledgeȱisȱlimited.ȱAndȱtheȱproperȱapplicationȱofȱthisȱsystemȱ ofȱknowledgeȱrequiresȱthatȱknowledgeȱknowȱthatȱitȱisȱlimited.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ describingȱ twoȱ waysȱ ofȱ flunkingȱ Ȭȱ oneȱ thatȱ limitsȱ andȱ solidifiesȱandȱmayȱbeȱpracticalȱinȱaȱcertainȱway,ȱandȱanotherȱwayȱthatȱisȱ alwaysȱopen?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱwayȱthatȱisȱopenȱisȱtheȱmostȱpractical,ȱbecauseȱtheȱwayȱthatȱisȱ openȱ includesȱ relativeȱ solidificationȱ toȱ anyȱdegreeȱ thatȱmayȱwork.ȱWeȱ sayȱȇthisȱtableȱisȱrelativelyȱsolid,ȱIȱadmitȱitȇ.ȱButȱIȱdonȇtȱsayȱȇItȇsȱabsolutelyȱ solidȇ.ȱ Youȱ couldȱ findȱ anȱ atomicȱ structureȱ inȱ thereȱ Ȭitȇsȱmostlyȱ emptyȱ space.ȱ Ifȱyouȱ lightȱaȱ fire,ȱ thatȱ tableȱ turnsȱ intoȱgas.ȱTheȱ explanationȱ forȱ thatȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ atomsȱ areȱ heldȱ togetherȱ byȱ forces,ȱ andȱ thenȱwhenȱ theȱ temperatureȱgoesȱupȱtheyȱjustȱcomeȱapart.ȱTheyȱgoȱintoȱspace.ȱ

Therefore,ȱyouȇdȱhaveȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ thisȱ tableȱ isȱnotȱabsolutelyȱ solid.ȱTheȱ ideaȱisȱthatȱitȱisȱsolidȱisȱaȱrepresentation.ȱIȱgaveȱtheȱexampleȱthatȱitȱlooksȱ solid,ȱyouȱexpectȱitȱtoȱbeȱsolid,ȱyourȱreflexesȱareȱsetȱforȱitȱtoȱbeȱsolid.ȱButȱ ifȱthisȱtableȱwereȱinsteadȱaȱveryȱgoodȱlaserȱimage,ȱyouȱwouldȱbeȱreadyȱtoȱ putȱaȱglassȱonȱ itȱandȱtheȱglassȱwouldȱgoȱthrough.ȱAndȱthenȱyouȱwouldȱ sayȱthatȱtheȱrepresentationȱwasȱinaccurate.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱ isȱ itȱ thatȱallowsȱusȱ toȱseeȱourȱconclusionsȱ inȱdifferentȱareasȱofȱ lifeȱwhereȱweȱareȱnoȱlongerȱlearning,ȱwhereȱweȇveȱcomeȱtoȱanȱopinion?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱOpinionsȱmayȱbeȱallȱright.ȱTheyȱareȱassumptions.ȱWeȱmayȱmakeȱ assumptionsȱasȱlongȱasȱweȱknowȱthatȱtheyȱareȱassumptions.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱwhatȱallowsȱusȱ toȱseeȱ thoseȱopinionsȱandȱ thoseȱconclusionsȱ thatȱ weȱhave?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ theȱquestionȱ isȱ theȱotherȱwayȱaround.ȱWhyȱdonȇtȱweȱseeȱ them?ȱWhyȱdoȱweȱthinkȱthatȱtheyȱareȱtrue?ȱ

Q:ȱWell,ȱifȱweȱtriedȱtoȱprogrammeȱourselvesȱtoȱlearnȱaboutȱeveryȱaspectȱ ofȱourselves,ȱitȱseemsȱthatȱwouldȱalsoȱbeȱjustȱpartȱofȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Youȱ canȇtȱ doȱ itȱ asȱ aȱ programme.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thereȱmayȱ beȱ anȱ unconditionedȱcapacityȱorȱpotentialȱinȱusȱtoȱlookȱatȱthisȱandȱseeȱwhatȱitȱ is.ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱ Iȇmȱsuggesting.ȱWeȱ leaveȱ thatȱopen.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ itȇsȱessentialȱ forȱhealthyȱthoughtȱtoȱleaveȱthatȱopen;ȱbecauseȱifȱyouȱdonȇt,ȱthenȱyouȇveȱ impliedȱthatȱit’sȱallȱconditionedȱandȱhenceȱthereȱisȱnoȱwayȱout.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱ canȇtȱ knowȱ becauseȱ ofȱ theȱ constantȱ change.ȱWeȱ onlyȱ thinkȱweȱ know.ȱThereȱareȱnoȱabsolutes.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱneverȱknowȱabsolutely.ȱWeȱalwaysȱcanȱknowȱrelatively.ȱItȇsȱaȱ fairlyȱgoodȱnotionȱthatȱthisȱisȱaȱtable,ȱitȱwillȱsupportȱobjects.ȱIȱknowȱthat.ȱ Iȱcannot,ȱhowever,ȱsayȱtheȱultimateȱabsoluteȱaboutȱitȱȬȱwhatȱitȱwillȱbeȱlikeȱ afterȱ itȱchangesȱ inȱ time,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱThusȱweȱhaveȱ relativeȱknowledgeȱ Ȭȱ

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relativeȱ toȱcertainȱconditionsȱandȱcircumstances.ȱButȱ theȱnotionȱ thatȱweȱ knowȱ theȱwholeȱ thing,ȱ orȱ thatȱweȱ haveȱ absoluteȱ knowledge,ȱwillȱ notȱ work.ȱ

Also,ȱasȱyouȱwereȱ saying,ȱ thingsȱ change.ȱAndȱknowledgeȱ isȱ limitedȱ toȱ theȱpast.ȱWeȱextendȱourȱknowledgeȱfromȱtheȱpastȱtowardȱtheȱfuture,ȱweȱ projectȱ it.ȱ Andȱ veryȱ oftenȱ thatȱ works.ȱ Weȱ canȱ makeȱ aȱ provisionalȱ assumptionȱ thatȱwhatȱweȱknowȱ isȱgoingȱ toȱwork.ȱButȱ theȱkeyȱ thingȱ isȱ thatȱitȇsȱopen.ȱIfȱitȱdoesnȇtȱwork,ȱthenȱweȇreȱreadyȱtoȱseeȱitȱisnȇtȱworkingȱ andȱchangeȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱIȱlookȱatȱthatȱtableȱthereȇsȱaȱcertainȱȇknowingȇȱofȱitȱasȱaȱtable.ȱButȱ togetherȱwithȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱfeelingȱofȱitȱasȱaȱtable.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱyouȱcanȱfeelȱit.ȱYouȱexpectȱitȱtoȱbeȱsolid,ȱandȱallȱtheȱrest.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱwithinȱme,ȱ togetherȱwithȱ theȱ representation,ȱ comesȱaȱ feelingȱofȱ realness.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱReality.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱ itȱ seemsȱ toȱmeȱ thatȱ theȱ feelingȱ isȱwhatȱmakesȱ itȱ solid.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ feelingȱaspectȱofȱtheȱtableȱthatȱlocksȱtheȱdoors.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱtheȱrepresentationȱisȱaȱsetȱofȱreflexesȱallȱtiedȱtogether,ȱwhichȱ includesȱ theȱ feelingȱ andȱ theȱ visualȱ appearanceȱ andȱ allȱ that.ȱTheȱwordȱ ȇtableȇȱ tiesȱ itȱallȱ togetherȱ Ȭȱ itȱ standsȱ inȱ forȱallȱofȱ that.ȱSoȱnowȱyouȱgetȱaȱ senseȱthatȱthisȱtableȱisȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱsolid,ȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱmistakenȱorȱmayȱ beȱright.ȱ

Theȱ mindȱ startsȱ toȱ attributeȱ variousȱ qualitiesȱ toȱ theȱ table,ȱ partlyȱ accordingȱtoȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱhaveȱgoneȱinȱtheȱpastȱandȱpartlyȱbyȱwhatȱisȱ observedȱnow.ȱThereȱisȱanȱexampleȱweȱhaveȱusedȱmanyȱtimes.ȱIfȱyouȱseeȱ aȱ telephoneȱ onȱ aȱ televisionȱ screenȱ andȱ youȱ hearȱ aȱ ringingȱ noise,ȱ thenȱ yourȱmindȱattributesȱtheȱsoundȱtoȱtheȱtelephoneȱinȱtheȱtelevisionȱimageȬȱ itȱ seemsȱ toȱ beȱ comingȱ fromȱ there.ȱ Thatȇsȱ howȱ youȱ seeȱ it.ȱAndȱ yetȱ ifȱ nobodyȱanswersȱtheȱphoneȱinȱtheȱimageȱyouȱthenȱcanȱsayȱthatȱitȱmayȱbeȱ comingȱ fromȱ theȱ nextȱ roomȱ andȱ thenȱ youȱwillȱ seeȱ itȱ differently.ȱ Theȱ senseȱofȱitsȱbeingȱthereȱinsideȱofȱtheȱtelevisionȱorȱinȱtheȱnextȱroomȱcomesȱ fromȱ theȱwayȱ theȱ thoughtȱ isȱworking.ȱTheȱ setȱofȱ reflexesȱ canȱ attributeȱ andȱcreateȱtheȱfeelingȱthatȱitȱisȱthereȱinȱtheȱformȱthatȱisȱattributed.ȱThisȱisȱ allȱpartȱofȱtheȱprocess.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱmayȱbeȱworthwhileȱtoȱdistinguishȱbetweenȱ ȇknowledgeȇȱinȱtheȱpastȱ senseȱandȱȇknowingȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱKnowingȱrequiresȱbeingȱopenȱandȱseeingȱwhatȱisȱhappeningȱnow.ȱ

Q:ȱ Youȱ usedȱ theȱ exampleȱ thatȱ Einsteinȱwasȱ knowingȱ thingsȱwithȱ hisȱ bodyȱ inȱ aȱ differentȱ way.ȱ Thenȱ knowingȱ isnȇtȱ justȱ aȱ seriesȱ ofȱ imagesȱ comingȱ byȱ inȱ someȱ programmedȱ sequence.ȱ Itȱ canȱ beȱ anȱ extensionȱ ofȱ

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beingȱpresentȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ isȱaȱ formȱofȱknowingȱ Ȭȱnotȱ justȱaȱ seriesȱofȱ ideasȱ floatingȱbyȱanȱobserver.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱ thatȱasȱyouȱgetȱaȱ feelingȱcontactȱwithȱ theȱ table,ȱsoȱEinsteinȱgotȱaȱ feelingȱcontactȱwithȱ theȱscientificȱ ideasȱwithȱ whichȱheȱwasȱworking,ȱwhichȱwasȱpartȱofȱhisȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱprovidedȱaȱdifferentȱkindȱofȱbarometerȱforȱhisȱtheories.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAȱricherȱsortȱofȱbarometer,ȱyes.ȱ

Soȱyouȱhaveȱallȱthisȱrepresentation,ȱwhichȱincludesȱallȱofȱthat:ȱtheȱfeelingȱ contact,ȱ theȱvisualȱsense,ȱ theȱsound,ȱ theȱword,ȱandȱeverythingȱelseȱ Ȭȱallȱ theȱdifferentȱmeanings.ȱ

Aȱrainbowȱisȱaȱniceȱexample.ȱSupposeȱyouȱseeȱaȱrainbow.ȱItȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱ anȱobjectȱmadeȱupȱofȱcolouredȱarcs.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱwayȱyouȱexperienceȱit.ȱButȱ accordingȱ toȱphysicsȱ thereȱ isȱnoȱ rainbowȱoutȱ there.ȱAndȱ inȱ fact,ȱ ifȱyouȱ assumedȱthatȱtheȱrainbowȱwasȱanȱobjectȱandȱwalkedȱtowardȱit,ȱitȱwouldȱ notȱbeȱfound.ȱPhysicsȱsaysȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱbunchȱofȱraindropsȱfallingȱandȱ thereȱisȱlightȱreflectingȱoffȱtheȱwaterȱandȱitȱreachesȱyourȱeyeȱinȱaȱcertainȱ way.ȱTheȱlightȱreachesȱeverybodyȇsȱeyeȱinȱaȱratherȱsimilarȱway,ȱthereforeȱ everybodyȱagreesȱ thereȇsȱaȱrainbow.ȱButȱ thisȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱ thatȱwhatȱ isȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ rainbow.ȱ Whatȱ isȱ actuallyȱ thereȱ isȱ fallingȱ rainȱ andȱ lightȱ refractingȱȬȱaȱprocess.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthatȱjustȱasȱtrueȱforȱtheȱtable?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱdifferenceȱisȱthatȱifȱyouȱwalkȱtowardȱtheȱtableȱyouȱwillȱtouchȱ itȱ coherently.ȱ Ifȱ youȱ walkȱ towardȱ theȱ rainbowȱ youȱ willȱ not.ȱ Soȱ theȱ rainbowȱisȱnotȱaȱcoherentȱobject.ȱ

Q:ȱItȇsȱaȱsheerȱimage.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱ theȱholographicȱ imageȱ ofȱ theȱ shipȱ Ȭȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱ theȱ wholeȱ beingȱ thatȱ theȱ shipȱ has.ȱ Similarly,ȱ theȱ rainbowȱ doesȱ notȱ haveȱ beingȱ asȱ aȱ bow;ȱ itȱ hasȱ beingȱ asȱ aȱ processȱ ofȱ fallingȱ rainȱ andȱ lightȱ refracting.ȱTheȱrainbowȱ isȱaȱrepresentationȱwhichȱdoesȱnotȱcohereȱwithȱ whatȱitȱisȱsupposedȱtoȱrepresent.ȱ

Thatȱ exampleȱ isȱ veryȱ interestingȱ becauseȱ itȱ showsȱ theȱwayȱ theȱ thingȱ works.ȱTheȱrainbowȱisȱaȱrepresentation.ȱTheȱrepresentationȱwasȱprobablyȱ producedȱinȱpeopleȱevenȱbeforeȱwords.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱtoȱhaveȱwordsȱtoȱ haveȱrepresentation,ȱasȱweȇveȱjustȱgoneȱinto.ȱ

Q:ȱThereȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱaȱcorrespondence,ȱhowever.ȱIfȱyouȱlookȱatȱtheȱtableȱ throughȱaȱveryȱpowerfulȱmicroscope,ȱinȱaȱsenseȱyouȱgetȱcloserȱandȱcloserȱ toȱtheȱtableȱjustȱasȱyouȱgetȱcloserȱandȱcloserȱtoȱtheȱrainbow.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱyouȱneverȱgetȱcloserȱtoȱtheȱrainbow.ȱItȱwillȱmove.ȱ

Q:ȱThereȱmightȱbeȱsomeȱuseȱinȱpushingȱthatȱanalogy,ȱthough,ȱbecauseȱaȱ tableȱisȱsoȱrealȱtoȱmeȱinȱmyȱfeeling.ȱButȱevenȱifȱIȱgoȱupȱandȱtouchȱitȱorȱputȱ aȱ cupȱ onȱ it,ȱ allȱ thatȱ Iȱ finallyȱhaveȱ isȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱ sensations.ȱAndȱ theȱ ȇtablenessȇȱofȱitȱisȱonlyȱinȱtheȱsteppingȱbackȱandȱholdingȱsomethingȱinȱmyȱ mind.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱTheȱ ȇtablenessȇȱisȱbuiltȱfromȱyourȱmind,ȱoutȱofȱtheȱwholeȱsetȱ ofȱreflexesȱallȱ tiedȱ together.ȱTheȱsameȱ isȱ trueȱofȱeverything.ȱScienceȱhasȱ saidȱthatȱthingsȱcomeȱintoȱtheȱnervousȱsystem,ȱandȱitȱisȱinȱtheȱbrainȱthatȱ theyȱareȱ somehowȱbuiltȱ intoȱourȱ senseȱofȱ theȱ realityȱofȱ theȱworld.ȱTheȱ pointȱisȱwhetherȱthisȱrealityȱcoheresȱinȱourȱexperience.ȱIfȱtheȱrealityȱthatȱ isȱsoȱformedȱdoesȱnotȱcohere,ȱthenȱweȱhaveȱtoȱchangeȱit.ȱ

Theȱbrainȱisȱformingȱaȱkindȱofȱrepresentationȱofȱreality,ȱwhichȱisȱableȱtoȱ guideȱyouȱproperlyȱ ifȱ itȱ isȱcoherent.ȱAndȱ itȇsȱclearȱ thatȱthisȱsenseȱofȱ theȱ realityȱ ofȱ objectsȱ andȱ thingsȱ isȱ constructed.ȱ Asȱ Iȱ saidȱ earlier,ȱ psychologistsȱ suchȱ asȱ Fiagetȱ claimȱ thatȱ veryȱ youngȱ childrenȱmayȱ notȱ haveȱtheȱnotionȱofȱtheȱrealityȱofȱaȱpermanentȱobjectȱȬȱtheyȱmayȱfeelȱthatȱ whenȱitȱisȱnotȱseenȱitȱjustȱvanishesȱandȱthatȱsomethingȱelseȱcomesȱup.ȱForȱ example,ȱheȱ citesȱ theȱ caseȱofȱaȱ childȱaboutȱ twoȱyearsȱoldȱwhoȱ thoughtȱ thatȱtheȱfatherȱwhoȱappearedȱatȱtheȱdinnerȱtableȱwasȱdifferentȱfromȱtheȱ

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fatherȱinȱtheȱoffice;ȱtheyȱwereȱtwoȱpeople.ȱOrȱelseȱtheyȱmayȱfeelȱtheȱunityȱ ofȱallȱobjects.ȱSoȱthatȇsȱpartȱofȱtheȱthing,ȱwhetherȱitȱisȱoneȱorȱmany.ȱ

Thatȇsȱanotherȱabstractȱconceptȱwhichȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱstraightȱinȱformingȱ theȱ representations.ȱ Yourȱ representationȱ putsȱ certainȱ thingsȱ asȱ one,ȱ certainȱ thingsȱasȱmany,ȱcertainȱ thingsȱasȱnecessary,ȱcontingent,ȱgeneral,ȱ particular.ȱ Itȱ organizesȱ everything.ȱAndȱ theȱmeaningȱ isȱ veryȱ differentȱ accordingȱ toȱhowȱ itȱ isȱ represented.ȱAtȱ first,ȱ thatȱ childȱwasȱ seeingȱ twoȱ fathers.ȱThenȱheȱ learnedȱthereȱwasȱonlyȱone,ȱandȱthereforeȱheȱsawȱonlyȱ one.ȱPerhapsȱheȱdiscoveredȱtheȱincoherenceȱinȱseeingȱtwo.ȱ

Thus,ȱweȱhaveȱ toȱsayȱ thatȱ representationsȱcanȱbeȱcorrectȱupȱ toȱaȱpoint.ȱ Appearancesȱcanȱbeȱcorrectȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint,ȱorȱtheyȱmayȱbeȱillusory.ȱThatȱ distinctionȱ isȱ veryȱ important.ȱ Theȱ factȱ thatȱ theȱ brainȱ constructsȱ appearancesȱisȱnotȱtheȱwholeȱstory;ȱbutȱthatȱsomeȱofȱthemȱareȱcorrectȱupȱ toȱaȱpointȱisȱcrucial.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱyouȱsayȱthenȱthatȱtheȱworldȱweȱseeȱisȱjustȱaȱdescription?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱNo.ȱTheȱdescriptionȱmeansȱtheȱwayȱweȱputȱitȱinȱwords;ȱliterallyȱitȱ meansȱȇwritingȱitȱdownȇ.ȱTheȱworldȱweȱseeȱisȱfarȱmoreȱthanȱthoseȱwords,ȱ butȱ itȱ isȱorganizedȱthroughȱaȱrepresentationȱ inȱwhichȱthoseȱwordsȱhaveȱ hadȱ aȱbigȱ effect.ȱTheȱwayȱweȱ talkȱ aboutȱ thingsȱ andȱ theȱwayȱweȱ thinkȱ aboutȱthingsȱaffectȱhowȱweȱseeȱthem.ȱWhetherȱweȱseeȱtwoȱfathersȱorȱoneȱ isȱaȱcrucialȱpoint.ȱForȱinstance,ȱifȱyouȱhaveȱprintedȱwordsȱwhichȱareȱaȱbitȱ

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tooȱfarȱawayȱtoȱbeȱseenȱandȱsomebodyȱtellsȱyouȱwhatȱtheȱwordsȱare,ȱyouȱ actuallyȱseeȱthem.ȱThereȱareȱmanyȱexamplesȱofȱthatȱkindȱȬȱhowȱtheȱwordȱ orȱtheȱthoughtȱaffectsȱwhatȱyouȱsee.ȱ

ThisȱisȱtheȱpointȱIȱwantȱtoȱmake:ȱthoughtȱisȱaffectingȱwhatȱyouȱsee.ȱTheȱ representationȱ entersȱ intoȱ theȱ perception.ȱ Sometimesȱ youȱ knowȱ somethingȱ isȱ aȱ representationȱ Ȭȱ suchȱ asȱwhenȱ youȱdrawȱ aȱdiagramȱ orȱ haveȱaȱphotograph.ȱButȱ inȱmanyȱ subtleȱwaysȱ theȱ representationȱentersȱ directlyȱintoȱtheȱperception,ȱandȱyouȱmayȱmissȱtheȱfactȱthatȱitȱisȱcomingȱ fromȱ thought.ȱWhenȱ youȱ haveȱ theȱ representationȱ ofȱ somebodyȱ asȱ anȱ enemy,ȱthatȱgoesȱ intoȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱthatȱpersonȱasȱtheȱenemy,ȱorȱasȱ stupid,ȱorȱasȱwhatever.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthoughtȱaȱmediationȱsystem,ȱwhichȱallowsȱusȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱthingsȱ thatȱareȱnotȱnowȱorȱnotȱpresent?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱ itȱ isȱprojectedȱ intoȱwhatȱ isȱnowȱandȱpresent.ȱAndȱ thatȱ projectionȱmayȱbeȱaȱgoodȱguide,ȱitȱmayȱbeȱaccurate;ȱitȇsȱapproximate,ȱbutȱ itȱmayȱ beȱgoodȱ enough.ȱ Inȱ otherȱwords,ȱ toȱ beȱusefulȱ inȱwhatȱyouȱ areȱ doing.ȱItȱisȱactuallyȱimportantȱtoȱprojectȱthatȱȬȱitȱisȱimportantȱtoȱseeȱthisȱ tableȱasȱaȱtable,ȱandȱnotȱtoȱsayȱthisȱisȱjustȱaȱrepresentation.ȱWhenȱyouȱareȱ goingȱ toȱ actȱ towardȱ it,ȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱ actȱ towardȱ itȱ asȱ somethingȱ thatȱ isȱ present.ȱAȱlotȱofȱitȱisȱprojectedȱintoȱwhatȱisȱpresent,ȱbutȱyouȱactȱtowardȱ thatȱtooȱȬȱtheȱonlyȱpointȱbeingȱthatȱifȱitȱisȱnotȱcoherent,ȱyouȱchangeȱit.ȱ

Thereforeȱitȇsȱcrucialȱtoȱseeȱthis:ȱtheȱrepresentationȱaffectsȱtheȱperception.ȱ Thatȱisȱcrucial.ȱAndȱitȱisȱaȱtremendousȱsourceȱofȱillusionȱifȱweȱonceȱloseȱ trackȱofȱtheȱfactȱthatȱthisȱisȱhappening.ȱ

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ȱȱ

Q:ȱDoesȱanythingȱhaveȱmultipleȱrepresentations?ȱ

Bohm:ȱManyȱthingsȱhave,ȱyes.ȱȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthereȱanythingȱthatȱdoesnȇt?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ shouldnȇtȱ thinkȱ so.ȱYouȱ couldȱ representȱ thingsȱ inȱmanyȱmanyȱ ways.ȱThoughtȱisȱunlimited.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱoftenȱgetȱlockedȱontoȱaȱparticularȱrepresentation.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱgetȱlockedȱonȱaȱparticularȱoneȱbecauseȱitȱmayȱincludeȱreflexesȱ thatȱgiveȱriseȱ toȱgoodȱchemicalȱstatesȱofȱ theȱendorphins.ȱAlsoȱ thereȱareȱ otherȱreasons,ȱsuchȱasȱ theȱ lockȱofȱabsoluteȱnecessary.ȱThereȱareȱvariousȱ factorsȱwhichȱcanȱlockȱthisȱthingȱsoȱthatȱyouȱcanȇtȱletȱitȱchangeȱinȱtheȱwayȱ thatȱ isȱcalledȱforȱwhenȱthereȱ isȱ incoherence.ȱAndȱthatȇsȱtheȱwayȱ illusionȱ arises,ȱandȱmistakesȱariseȱthatȱyouȱdonȇtȱcorrect,ȱandȱallȱtheȱrestȱofȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱDidȱyouȱsayȱthoughtȱisȱunlimited?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱThereȱisȱnoȱlimitȱtoȱhowȱfarȱyouȱcanȱextendȱthought,ȱsaying:ȱȇNowȱ weȱ canȱ graspȱ this.ȱ Tomorrowȱweȱ couldȱ graspȱmore.ȱWeȱ couldȱ goȱ onȱ indefinitely.ȇȱButȱeachȱ thoughtȱ isȱ limited.ȱThoughtȱ isȱ limitedȱ inȱwhatȱ itȱ canȱgrasp.ȱThoughtȱdoesȱnotȱgraspȱtheȱwhole.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱitȇsȱquiteȱcrucialȱthatȱweȱcheckȱtheȱrepresentation?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱWhatȱisȱmissingȱisȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱseeȱthatȱthoughtȱ isȱactuallyȱparticipatingȱ inȱperception.ȱOneȱofȱ theȱassumptionsȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ comeȱ toȱmakeȱ isȱ thatȱ certainȱkindsȱofȱ thoughtȱdoȱnotȱparticipateȱ Ȭȱ theyȱonlyȱtellȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱare,ȱorȱperhapsȱtheyȱrepresentȱtheȱwayȱ thingsȱare.ȱ

Now,ȱtheȱpointȱisȱthatȱthoughtȱactuallyȱdoesȱparticipate,ȱnotȱonlyȱinȱtheȱ factȱthatȱweȱmakeȱtheȱworldȱaccordingȱtoȱthoughtȱȬȱourȱsocialȱworld,ȱandȱ soȱonȱ Ȭȱbutȱalsoȱbecauseȱ itȱparticipatesȱ inȱ theȱworldȱ thatȱweȱ see,ȱeitherȱ correctlyȱorȱincorrectly.ȱThoughtȱtellsȱusȱthatȱtheȱfatherȱatȱtheȱofficeȱisȱtheȱ sameȱasȱtheȱfatherȱatȱtheȱtable.ȱButȱthoughtȱdoesȱnotȱseemȱtoȱknowȱthatȱ byȱdoingȱsoȱitȱisȱparticipatingȱȬȱaffectingȱourȱperception.ȱNotȱtoȱseeȱthatȱ participationȱisȱaȱcrucialȱmistake.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱthatȱthisȱmistakeȱcanȱbeȱveryȱ dangerous?ȱ

Q:ȱMyȱexperienceȱofȱmyȱrepresentationȱisȱmyȱexperienceȱofȱreality,ȱisnȇtȱ it?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Theȱ experienceȱ ofȱ realityȱ includesȱ theȱ projectionȱ ofȱ representationsȱ intoȱwhatȱyouȱsee.ȱButȱ itȱ isȱnotȱentirelyȱ that,ȱbecauseȱ ifȱ yourȱmindȱisȱworkingȱrightȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱtakeȱintoȱaccountȱthatȱtheȱwholeȱ thingȱisȱincoherent.ȱThenȱitȱlosesȱitsȱholdȱandȱyouȱbeginȱtoȱchange.ȱIsȱthatȱ clear?ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱ itȱ isȱvitalȱ thatȱweȱseeȱ theȱwholeȱ thingȱevenȱbeyondȱ theȱpersonal.ȱ Takeȱtheȱmedia,ȱforȱexample;ȱtheyȱcouldȱmakeȱyouȱgoȱtoȱwar.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theȱmediaȱ areȱ fullȱ ofȱ representationsȱ whichȱ areȱ presentedȱ asȱ perceptions.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱnowȱ theyȱevenȱhaveȱdocuȬdramas;ȱ theyȇreȱdoingȱ itȱ directly.ȱTheyȱputȱsomethingȱinȱtheȱformȱofȱaȱdocumentaryȱwhichȱisȱonlyȱ aȱdrama.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱ youȱ giveȱ anȱ exampleȱ ofȱ aȱ caseȱwhereȱ representationȱ affectsȱ experienceȱandȱweȱcanȱseeȱthatȱeasily?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThereȱareȱaȱ lotȱofȱexamples.ȱForȱ instance,ȱveryȱoftenȱcartoonistsȱ representȱcertainȱpeopleȱasȱnastyȱandȱunpleasant.ȱ

ȱȱ

OrȱtheȱNazisȱwouldȱrepresentȱtheȱJewsȱ inȱaȱcertainȱway,ȱandȱthenȱsoonȱ peopleȱwereȱseeingȱthemȱthatȱway.ȱ

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Q:ȱButȱ Iȱmeantȱmoreȱ likeȱ fromȱourȱ tangibleȱeverydayȱexperienceȱwhereȱ weȱcouldȱseeȱhowȱitȱworks.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThisȱisȱwhatȱweȇreȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱto.ȱItȱisȱaȱveryȱsubtleȱquestion.ȱToȱ seeȱ thisȱ thingȱactuallyȱhappeningȱ isȱ somethingȱ theȱhumanȱ raceȱdoesnȇtȱ do.ȱ

However,ȱ thereȱ areȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ examplesȱ ofȱ howȱ representationȱ affectsȱ perception.ȱ Iȱ gaveȱ theȱ oneȱ ofȱwhereȱ youȱ haveȱ anȱ indistinctȱ letterȱ andȱ somebodyȱstatesȱwhatȱitȱisȱandȱyouȱthenȱseeȱitȱthatȱway.ȱIf,ȱonȱtheȱotherȱ hand,ȱ theȱ figureȱ isȱ distinct,ȱ thenȱ youȱ cannotȱ easilyȱ seeȱ theȱ effectȱ ofȱ representation.ȱButȱ inȱanȱambiguousȱsituationȱ itȱbecomesȱclearȱ thatȱ theȱ wayȱyouȱareȱthinkingȱisȱaffectingȱtheȱwayȱyouȱsee.ȱThereȱareȱhundredsȱofȱ examplesȱofȱthatȱkind.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱyouȇreȱsuggestingȱthatȱthisȱisȱactuallyȱtheȱgeneralȱcase,ȱalthoughȱ weȱmayȱthinkȱitȱisȱanȱexception.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱwayȱ perceptionȱworksȱ Ȭȱ itȱ isȱ highlyȱ affectedȱbyȱ thoughtȱandȱbyȱ representationȱandȱbyȱ imagination,ȱandȱ soȱ on.ȱAndȱ inȱ fact,ȱ thatȱ isȱquiteȱ inevitable.ȱButȱweȱdoȱnotȱseemȱ toȱseeȱ thisȱ happening.ȱ

Thereȱareȱhistoriansȱwhoȱsayȱthatȱinȱveryȱearlyȱtimesȱpeopleȱhadȱaȱmoreȱ participatoryȱ typeȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Theyȱ wouldȱ thinkȱ thatȱ theyȱ wereȱ participatingȱ inȱ someȱ ofȱ theȱ thingsȱ theyȱ saw,ȱ likeȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theyȱ participatedȱinȱtheȱtotemȱofȱtheȱtribeȱorȱinȱtheȱwholeȱofȱnature.ȱAndȱtheȱ

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Eskimosȱapparentlyȱhadȱaȱbeliefȱ thatȱ thereȱwereȱmanyȱmanyȱ seals,ȱbutȱ thatȱeachȱoneȱwasȱaȱmanifestationȱofȱtheȱoneȱsealȱȬȱtheȱspiritȱofȱtheȱseal.ȱ Thatȱis,ȱtheȱoneȱsealȱwasȱmanifestingȱasȱtheȱmany.ȱTherefore,ȱtheyȱcouldȱ prayȱtoȱthisȱspiritȱofȱtheȱsealȱtoȱmanifestȱsoȱtheyȱcouldȱhaveȱsomethingȱtoȱ eat.ȱNow,ȱifȱyouȱthoughtȱallȱsealsȱwereȱindividuals,ȱthatȱprayerȱwouldȱbeȱ ridiculousȱbecauseȱyouȱareȱaskingȱ thisȱ individualȱsealȱ justȱ toȱcomeȱandȱ beȱeaten.ȱButȱ toȱ theȱspiritȱofȱ theȱsealȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱ ȇbutȱofȱcourse,ȱ Iȇllȱ justȱ manifestȱforȱtheȱEskimosȱandȱIȇllȱstillȱbeȱhereȇ.ȱIȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱAmericanȱ Indiansȱlookedȱatȱtheȱbuffaloȱthatȱway.ȱ

Theȱ earlierȱ peopleȱ feltȱ thatȱ theyȱwereȱ participatingȱ inȱ nature.ȱAndȱ inȱ someȱwayȱ theyȱwereȱmoreȱ keenlyȱ awareȱ ofȱ theȱ participationȱ ofȱ theirȱ thought.ȱHowever,ȱ inȱanotherȱwayȱ theyȱwereȱperhapsȱoverdoingȱ itȱ Ȭȱ inȱ theȱ senseȱ thatȱ theyȱwereȱ supposingȱ theȱ realityȱ ofȱ someȱ ofȱ theȱ thingsȱ whichȱwereȱbeingȱprojectedȱbyȱtheȱthought,ȱinȱaȱwayȱthatȱmayȱnotȱhaveȱ beenȱentirelyȱright.ȱ

Thenȱweȱdevelopedȱinsteadȱaȱmoreȱobjectiveȱkindȱofȱthoughtȱwhichȱsaid;ȱ ȇweȱwantȱtoȱhaveȱaȱthoughtȱaboutȱsomethingȱwhereȱweȱdonȇtȱparticipate,ȱ whereȱ weȱ justȱ trunkȱ aboutȱ itȱ andȱ knowȱ justȱ whatȱ itȱ is.ȇȱ Thatȱ madeȱ possibleȱscienceȱandȱtechnology,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱButȱthatȱalsoȱwentȱtooȱfar,ȱ becauseȱweȱbeganȱtoȱapplyȱthatȱobjectiveȱthoughtȱuniversallyȱandȱsaidȱitȱ appliedȱ inside,ȱ outsideȱ Ȭȱ toȱ everything.ȱAndȱ thenȱweȱ sayȱ thereȱ isȱ noȱ participationȱwhatsoeverȱbyȱthought.ȱ

Now,ȱthatȱisȱclearlyȱwrong.ȱIȇveȱpointedȱoutȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱ participationȱbyȱ thought,ȱandȱhowȱ itȱcreatesȱ theȱworld.ȱAndȱ Iȇmȱsayingȱ alsoȱ thatȱ thoughtȱclearlyȱparticipatesȱ inȱperception,ȱandȱ thatȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱ crucialȱformȱofȱparticipation.ȱThoughtȱparticipatesȱinȱeverything;ȱbutȱourȱ idealȱ ofȱ objectiveȱ thoughtȱ isȱ absoluteȱ nonȬparticipationȱ Ȭȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱ thoughtȱisȱ justȱsimplyȱtellingȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱareȱandȱdoingȱnothingȱ

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whatsoever.ȱInȱsomeȱareasȱthatȇsȱaȱgoodȱapproximation;ȱbutȱourȱthoughtȱ hasȱsupposedȱthatȱtoȱbeȱtheȱuniversalȱsituation.ȱ

Thus,ȱweȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱhereȱ isȱoneȱofȱ theȱquestionsȱwhereȱ thoughtȱ isȱ goingȱwrong.ȱAndȱthisȱcouldȱbeȱsaidȱtoȱbeȱveryȱcloseȱtoȱtheȱfundamentalȱ flawȱinȱtheȱprocessȱȬȱnamely,ȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱdoingȱthisȱthingȱandȱdoesnȇtȱ realizeȱthatȱitȇsȱdoingȱit.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱwhatȱtheȱquestionȱis?ȱ

Q:ȱThisȱmayȱsoundȱsimplistic,ȱbutȱareȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱcanȱonlyȱfunctionȱ byȱdividing;ȱandȱonceȱitȇsȱdivided,ȱitȱcanȇtȱbeȱtheȱwhole?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThoughtȱcannotȱbeȱ theȱwholeȱbecauseȱ itȱ isȱ justȱaȱ representation,ȱ anȱabstraction.ȱ

Butȱ also,ȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ dividingȱ andȱ fragmenting.ȱ Thoughtȱmayȱdivideȱ inȱtheȱsenseȱofȱmarkingȱpartsȱofȱaȱwholeȱ Ȭȱsuchȱasȱ distinguishingȱtheȱvariousȱgearsȱofȱaȱwatch.ȱOrȱthoughtȱmayȱfragmentȱȬȱ suchȱasȱsmashingȱ theȱwatchȱwithȱaȱhammer.ȱ Inȱ theȱ latterȱcase,ȱ thoughtȱ separatesȱthingsȱwhichȱareȱreallyȱone.ȱYouȱsee,ȱweȱoughtȱtoȱmakeȱ justȱaȱ dottedȱ lineȱ betweenȱ thoughtȱ andȱ perception.ȱ Butȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ tacitlyȱ madeȱ aȱ separationȱ ratherȱ thanȱmarkingȱpartsȱofȱ aȱwhole.ȱThoughtȱhasȱ madeȱaȱsolidȱ lineȱandȱsaysȱthoughtȱisȱoneȱsideȱandȱperceptionȱisȱonȱtheȱ other.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱ thatȱ lineȱ hasȱ thisȱ physiologicalȱ component,ȱ andȱ soȱ theȱ lineȱ isȱ experiencedȱasȱreal.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes.ȱTheȱseparation,ȱtheȱdivision,ȱisȱexperiencedȱasȱrealȱȬȱthatȇsȱtheȱ representationȱofȱthought.ȱThatȱbecomesȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱsituation.ȱ

Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thought,ȱ byȱ settingȱ boundaries,ȱ isȱ creatingȱ aȱ separationȱallȱtheȱtime?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱisȱcreatingȱtheȱsenseȱofȱseparation,ȱandȱthenȱtheȱactionȱflowingȱ fromȱ thatȱbreaksȱ thingsȱup.ȱWeȇllȱhaveȱ toȱdiscussȱ thisȱ someȱmore.ȱButȱ thisȱisȱreallyȱgettingȱcloseȱtheȱcrucialȱdifficultyȱwithȱthoughtȱȬȱthatȱitȱdoesȱ notȱkeepȱtrackȱofȱwhatȱitȱisȱdoing.ȱThatȱhasȱbeenȱtheȱdifficultyȱallȱalong.ȱ

Q:ȱThoughtȱisȱmakingȱaȱrepresentationȱandȱpresentingȱitȱasȱaȱperception?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱthatȇsȱaȱdeception.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ No,ȱ itȇsȱ notȱ necessarilyȱ one,ȱ becauseȱ itȱ mayȱ beȱ necessaryȱ forȱ practicalȱpurposesȱtoȱseeȱthisȱtableȱasȱaȱtable.ȱIfȱyouȱareȱdrivingȱaȱcar,ȱyouȱ havenȇtȱ timeȱ toȱgoȱ throughȱallȱ thoseȱ thoughts.ȱYouȱmustȱdirectlyȱmoveȱ

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towardsȱwhatȱyouȱsee,ȱwhichȱincludesȱaȱlotȱofȱthought.ȱTheȱmeaningȱofȱ whatȱyouȱseeȱisȱincludedȱinȱhowȱyouȱseeȱit,ȱsoȱitȱisȱaȱnecessaryȱfeatureȱofȱ theȱwholeȱsystem.ȱ

Andȱyet,ȱ ifȱ thoughtȱknewȱ itȱwasȱdoingȱ this,ȱ thenȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱallȱ right.ȱ Theȱdeceptionȱconsistsȱinȱtheȱfactȱthatȱthoughtȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱitȱisȱdoingȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱitȱisnȇtȱthatȱIȱamȱdoingȱit,ȱbutȱthoughtȱisȱdoingȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱthoughtȱisȱdoingȱit.ȱButȱitȱdoesnȇtȱevenȱknowȱitȱisȱhappening.ȱ Itȱ says:ȱ ȇThatȇsȱ perception,ȱ Iȇmȱ thought.ȱ Iȇmȱ justȱ tellingȱ youȱ theȱ wayȱ thingsȱare.ȱIȱseeȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱareȱandȱIȱjustȱtellȱyou.ȇȱ

Q:ȱThereȇsȱaȱcompleteȱseparationȱbetweenȱmeȱandȱwhatȱisȱhappening.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱright.ȱAȱseparationȱwhichȱisȱfalse,ȱbecauseȱtheȱwayȱIȱthinkȱ isȱaffectingȱwhatȱIȱsee.ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱthatȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱȇmeȇȱasȱseparateȱisȱwrong?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱIȱdonȇtȱthinkȱthatȱweȇveȱgotȱtoȱtheȱ ȇmeȇȱyet.ȱWeȱareȱ justȱtryingȱtoȱ sayȱ thereȱ isȱaȱmistakeȱ inȱ thought,ȱevenȱbeforeȱweȱ raiseȱ theȱquestionȱofȱ ȇmeȇ.ȱNow,ȱthatȱmistakeȱinȱthoughtȱwillȱallowȱthisȱfalseȱnotionȱofȱtheȱȇmeȇȱ toȱdevelop.ȱ

ȱȱ

Iȱthinkȱweȱshouldȱhaveȱaȱbreakȱnow.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Weȱ wereȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ howȱ thoughtȱ affectsȱ perceptionȱ andȱ doesnȇtȱknowȱ thatȱ itȱdoesȱ so.ȱAndȱweȱ saidȱ thatȱ thisȱ couldȱbeȱ aȱ crucialȱ mistake,ȱbecauseȱifȱweȱdonȇtȱseeȱhowȱthoughtȱentersȱperceptionȱweȱmayȱ takeȱ thatȱperceptionȱasȱaȱ factȱunaffectedȱbyȱ thought,ȱandȱ thenȱbaseȱourȱ assumptionsȱandȱactionsȱandȱthinkingȱonȱthatȱsoȬcalledȱfact.ȱThusȱweȱcanȱ getȱintoȱaȱtrapȱȬȱsuchȱasȱweȱmayȱassumeȱthatȱpeopleȱofȱaȱcertainȱkindȱareȱ noȱgood,ȱandȱthenȱsayȱȇIȱcanȱseeȱthatȱtheyȇreȱnoȱgoodȇ.ȱ

Weȱsaidȱthatȱthisȱquestionȱofȱthoughtȱenteringȱperceptionȱrequiresȱsomeȱ attention,ȱ becauseȱ itȱwillȱnotȱ onlyȱdoȱ soȱ outwardlyȱ butȱ alsoȱ inwardly.ȱ Andȱ weȱ willȱ haveȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱ seriousȱ consequencesȱ ofȱ thatȱ whenȱ weȱ considerȱwhetherȱ itȱ isȱpossibleȱ toȱperceiveȱourselvesȱandȱ toȱdisentangleȱ theȱconfusionȱfromȱourȱthoughtsȱaboutȱourselves.ȱ

Now,ȱmaybeȱyouȱwantȱtoȱaskȱoneȱorȱtwoȱmoreȱquestionsȱandȱthenȱweȇllȱ goȱon.ȱ

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Q:ȱYouȱtalkedȱearlierȱaboutȱhowȱveryȱdeceptiveȱthoughtȱcanȱbe,ȱandȱthenȱ youȱalsoȱtalkedȱaboutȱhowȱunawareȱthoughtȱcanȱbe.ȱSomehowȱIȱgetȱtheȱ feelingȱofȱaȱveryȱcoyȱandȱconnivingȱthought.ȱ

Bohm:ȱInȱaȱwayȱthoughtȱisȱveryȱcunning.ȱButȱitȇsȱnotȱreallyȱveryȱawareȱofȱ whatȱ itȱ isȱ doing.ȱ Theȱ sameȱ cunningȱ isȱ alsoȱ whatȱ solvesȱ practicalȱ problems.ȱ Weȱ canȱ trunkȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ asȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ whichȱ hasȱ tremendousȱ adaptability.ȱ Itȱ can,ȱ forȱ example,ȱ findȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱwaysȱ ofȱ makingȱyouȱ feelȱ better.ȱ Itȱ feelsȱ around,ȱ itȱprobes,ȱ itȱ findsȱwaysȱwhichȱ mayȱ lookȱextremelyȱ ingenious.ȱButȱ thatȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱ thatȱ thoughtȱhasȱ reallyȱ aȱ viciousȱ spiritȱ thereȱ tryingȱ toȱ doȱ youȱwrong,ȱ orȱ doȱ youȱ inȱ orȱ something.ȱ

Q:ȱThereȱisȱaȱkindȱofȱwishfulȱthinkingȱthatȱsupportsȱtheȱweaknessȱofȱtheȱ memory,ȱtheȱforgetfulnessȱofȱcertainȱdetails.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱpartȱofȱtheȱdeceptionȱofȱthoughtȱmayȱincludeȱtheȱfactȱthatȱitȱ makesȱ youȱ forget.ȱ Thoughtȱ isȱ ableȱ toȱmakeȱ youȱ insensitiveȱ toȱ allȱ theȱ reflexesȱwhichȱmightȱmakeȱyouȱsleepyȱorȱnot,ȱorȱinattentive,ȱorȱforgetfulȱ orȱwhatever.ȱThoughtȱcanȱ takeȱcommandȱofȱ thoseȱ reflexesȱandȱoperateȱ them.ȱForȱinstance,ȱifȱtheȱbodyȱhasȱtooȱmuchȱofȱtheȱchemicalȱserotoninȱitȱ couldȱmakeȱ youȱ aȱ bitȱdopey.ȱ Soȱ thoughtȱmightȱ findȱ aȱwayȱ toȱ liberateȱ serotoninȱ byȱ certainȱ thoughts.ȱ Thoughtȱ canȱ probeȱ around.ȱ Itȇsȱ oneȱ system,ȱallȱofȱit.ȱ

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Thatȇsȱ theȱcrucialȱpoint:ȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱallȱ thought,ȱandȱallȱ thoseȱmovementsȱ areȱ allȱ oneȱ system.ȱ Theȱ systemȱ evenȱ entersȱ perception,ȱ andȱ itȱ affectsȱ perception.ȱThoughtȱ couldȱmakeȱ youȱ feelȱ sleepy,ȱ thoughtȱ couldȱmakeȱ youȱ feelȱveryȱ excited,ȱ orȱ thoughtȱ couldȱmakeȱ theȱmindȱdartȱ soȱ thatȱ itȱ wonȇtȱstayȱwithȱtheȱpoint,ȱsayingȱ ȇquick,ȱsomethingȱelseȱisȱimportantȇ.ȱItȱ canȱdoȱallȱsortsȱofȱtricksȱtoȱtryȱtoȱkeepȱyourȱmindȱoffȱaȱpointȱthatȱthoughtȱ supposesȱmightȱbeȱdisturbing.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱyouȱthinkȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱbasicallyȱdoingȱitȱtoȱbeȱhelpful?ȱItȇsȱnotȱ reallyȱdoingȱitȱforȱanyȱotherȱreason?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȇsȱdoingȱwhatȱ itȱ isȱsupposedȱ toȱdoȱ Ȭȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱhelp.ȱButȱ itȇsȱ extremelyȱconfusedȱaboutȱwhatȱitȱisȱdoing.ȱSoȱitȱoftenȱdoesȱharm.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȱ doesnȇtȱ seem,ȱ though,ȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ theȱwholeȱ systemȇsȱwellȬ beingȱ asȱ itsȱ aimȱ orȱ goal;ȱ itȱ seemsȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ muchȱ moreȱ aȱ particularȱ pleasureȱorȱsensation.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱthatȇsȱtheȱwayȱthoughtȱconceivesȱtheȱkeyȱfeatureȱofȱtheȱwholeȱ system,ȱgettingȱ thatȱpleasureȱorȱpain.ȱOriginallyȱ thoughtȱwasȱ setȱupȱ toȱ tryȱtoȱprotectȱyouȱandȱtoȱhelpȱyou.ȱAndȱafterȱaȱwhileȱitȱrunsȱonȱitsȱown.ȱ Andȱ itȇsȱ justȱ running.ȱ Iȱdonȇtȱ thinkȱyouȱ shouldȱ thinkȱ itȱ isȱ tryingȱ toȱdoȱ anything,ȱanyȱmoreȱthanȱyourȱkneeȬjerkȱisȱtryingȱtoȱdoȱanything.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱ Butȱ weȱ canȱ seeȱ that,ȱ inȱmanyȱ casesȱ atȱ least,ȱ thoughtȱ isȱ tryingȱ toȱ achieveȱ aȱ certainȱ objectiveȱ Ȭȱ pleasureȱ orȱ satisfaction,ȱ whateverȱ thatȱ means.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱ theȱwayȱ youȱ interpretȱ it,ȱ butȱ thoughtȱmayȱ notȱ beȱdoingȱ that.ȱ Supposeȱ theȱ endorphinsȱ haveȱ suddenlyȱ beenȱ removedȱ fromȱ theȱ painȱ nerves,ȱ andȱ theȱ brainȱ isȱ objectingȱ veryȱ strongly.ȱThoughtȱmerelyȱ reacts,ȱ itȱ respondsȱwithȱ reflexesȱ aimedȱ atȱ doingȱwhateverȱwillȱ reduceȱ thatȱȬȱwhichȱisȱwhatȱitȱdoesȱallȱtheȱtimeȱanyway.ȱ

Q:ȱItȇsȱmoreȱofȱaȱmechanicalȱviewȱthanȱweȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱadmit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱIȇmȱtryingȱtoȱsayȱthatȱtheseȱreflexesȱareȱrelativelyȱmechanical.ȱ And,ȱthoughȱtheȱbrainȱasȱaȱwholeȱisȱnotȱmechanical,ȱitȱcanȱgetȱcaughtȱupȱ intoȱaȱsystemȱofȱreflexesȱthatȱlooksȱlikeȱaȱmachine.ȱ

Q:ȱIsnȇtȱitȱthatȱtheȱbrainȱdemandsȱsecurity?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱ right.ȱButȱ facedȱwithȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱdisturbanceȱ theȱ brainȱ getsȱagitated,ȱandȱ theȱ thoughtȱprocessȱ comesȱ inȱwithȱ reflexesȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ diminishȱ theȱ agitation.ȱThereȱ isȱ nothingȱ specialȱ aboutȱ it.ȱThoughtȱ justȱ goesȱonȱasȱifȱitȱwereȱaȱmachine,ȱthoughȱitȱisȱnotȱaȱmachine.ȱ

Q:ȱAfterȱ theȱ fact,ȱweȱ callȱ itȱ theseȱ things.ȱWeȱ sayȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ tryingȱ toȱdoȱ somethingȱorȱthatȱ itȇsȱmechanical.ȱButȱthatȇsȱonlyȱaȱdescriptionȱafterȱtheȱ fact.ȱWithinȱtheȱfactȱitselfȱthereȱisȱmerelyȱwhatȱisȱgoingȱon.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱinȱeffectȱitsȱbehaviourȱcanȱbeȱrepresentedȱasȱmechanical,ȱbutȱ onlyȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱyouȱclarifyȱforȱmeȱwhatȱyouȱunderstandȱbyȱpsychicȱenergyȱandȱ thought,ȱandȱtheȱconnectionȱbetweenȱbothȱofȱthem.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThoughtȱwillȱ liberateȱ throughȱ theȱ reflexesȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ energies.ȱ Thoughtȱisȱinȱcommand,ȱasȱitȱwere,ȱofȱaȱwholeȱrangeȱofȱenergies,ȱwhichȱ inȱturnȱaffectȱthought.ȱTheseȱenergiesȱareȱnotȱtheȱmostȱsubtleȱenergiesȱofȱ theȱunconditioned,ȱbutȱthereȱareȱaȱgreatȱrangeȱofȱenergiesȱthere.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthoughtȱprimarilyȱdominatedȱbyȱconditioning,ȱbutȱweȱdoȱhaveȱaȱ smallȱ percentageȱ thereȱwhereȱweȱ haveȱ theȱ opportunityȱ toȱ seeȱ thingsȱ differently?ȱAndȱtheȱnewȱconditioningȱcomesȱoutȱofȱthat,ȱandȱthenȱthereȱ isȱaȱchange?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ right.ȱ Thoughtȱ worksȱ byȱ conditioning.ȱ Itȱ hasȱ toȱ getȱ conditioned.ȱYouȱneedȱconditioningȱtoȱlearnȱaȱlanguage,ȱtoȱlearnȱhowȱtoȱ write,ȱorȱ toȱdoȱallȱsortsȱofȱthings.ȱWhenȱtheȱconditioningȱgetsȱtooȱrigid,ȱ though,ȱitȱwonȇtȱchangeȱwhenȱitȱshould.ȱButȱthereȱmayȱbeȱareasȱwhereȱitȱ isȱnotȱ thatȱ rigidȱ andȱ itȱ couldȱ change,ȱ andȱ thenȱyouȱ canȱgetȱ somethingȱ newȱȬȱaȱnewȱsetȱofȱreflexes.ȱ

Q:ȱ Butȱ thereȇsȱ aȱ windowȱ ofȱ opportunityȱ occasionallyȱ whereȱ weȱ seeȱ something.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱreasonȱweȱsometimesȱgetȱanȱinsightȱtoȱchange.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Theȱwindowȱmayȱ ariseȱ inȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ fortuitousȱways,ȱ orȱ perhapsȱnonȬfortuitous.ȱWhatȱweȱareȱdoingȱnowȱis,ȱIȱhope,ȱcreatingȱsomeȱ kindȱofȱwindow.ȱ Inȱotherȱwords,ȱperhapsȱ theȱunconditionedȱ energyȱ isȱ awakening,ȱ orȱ something,ȱ andȱ thereforeȱ itȱ canȱ beginȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ thisȱ conditioning.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Whenȱ thereȇsȱ theȱ disappearanceȱ ofȱ theȱ endorphinsȱ andȱ thenȱ theȱ agitationȱ ofȱ theȱ brainȱ toȱ getȱ thatȱ stateȱ back,ȱ whatȱ areȱ theȱ otherȱ possibilitiesȱbesidesȱwhatȱthoughtȱdoes?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ thoughtȱdidnȇtȱdoȱanything,ȱ itȱmightȱbeȱ thatȱanotherȱ solutionȱ wouldȱ come.ȱTheȱagitationȱmightȱ justȱdisappear.ȱ Itȱmayȱbeȱ thatȱ ifȱyouȱ stayȱwithȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ thereȱ areȱ noȱ endorphinsȱ forȱ aȱ littleȱwhile,ȱ theȱ systemȱwillȱsoonȱcomeȱtoȱanȱequilibrium.ȱThereȱmayȱbeȱnoȱrealȱproblemȱ atȱallȱexceptȱthatȱthoughtȱsaysȱȇquick,ȱIȱmustȱdoȱsomethingȇ.ȱ

Letȱmeȱ sayȱ aȱ fewȱmoreȱpointsȱhere.ȱWeȱhaveȱ thisȱquestionȱofȱ thoughtȱ affectingȱ perception.ȱ Thisȱ willȱ beȱ veryȱ crucialȱ tomorrowȱ whenȱ weȱ discussȱtheȱthoughtȱandȱtheȱthinkerȱorȱtheȱobserverȱandȱtheȱobserved,ȱorȱ whateverȱ youȱwantȱ toȱ callȱ it,ȱ becauseȱ theȱ questionȱ arises:ȱ ifȱ thoughtȱ affectsȱwhatȱweȱperceive,ȱhowȱareȱweȱgoingȱtoȱseparateȱtheȱtwo?ȱ

Weȱ haveȱ withȱ theȱ bodyȱ aȱ veryȱ interestingȱ situationȱ calledȱ proprioception,ȱwhichȱmeansȱ ȇselfȬperceptionȇ.ȱ Ifȱyouȱmoveȱanyȱpartȱofȱ yourȱbody,ȱyouȱknowȱ thatȱyouȱhaveȱmovedȱ itȱ Ȭtheȱmovementȱ resultedȱ fromȱyourȱintention.ȱYouȱknowȱthatȱimmediately,ȱwithoutȱtime,ȱwithoutȱ anȱobserver,ȱwithoutȱhavingȱtoȱthink.ȱIfȱyouȱcanȇtȱtellȱthat,ȱthenȱyouȇreȱinȱ aȱveryȱbadȱway.ȱThereȱareȱpeopleȱwhoȱhaveȱlostȱ itȱandȱtheyȱcanȇtȱmoveȱ coherently,ȱ becauseȱ youȱ mustȱ beȱ ableȱ toȱ distinguishȱ betweenȱ aȱ movementȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱcreatedȱandȱoneȱthatȱoccurredȱindependently.ȱ

Iȇveȱoftenȱcitedȱtheȱcaseȱofȱaȱwomanȱwhoȱwokeȱupȱ inȱtheȱmiddleȱofȱtheȱ nightȱhittingȱherself.ȱWhatȱhadȱhappenedȱwasȱ thatȱ sheȇdȱhadȱ aȱ strokeȱ thatȱdamagedȱherȱ sensoryȱnerves,ȱwhichȱwouldȱ tellȱherȱwhatȱ sheȱwasȱ

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doing.ȱButȱ theȱstrokeȱ leftȱ theȱmotorȱnervesȱsoȱ thatȱsheȱcouldȱstillȱmoveȱ herȱmuscles.ȱApparentlyȱ sheȱhadȱ touchedȱherself,ȱbutȱ sinceȱ sheȱwasnȇtȱ beingȱinformedȱthatȱitȱwasȱherȱownȱtouchȱsheȱassumedȱrightȱawayȱthatȱitȱ wasȱanȱattackȱbyȱsomebodyȱelse.ȱThenȱtheȱmoreȱsheȱdefendedȱtheȱworseȱ theȱ attackȱ got.ȱWhenȱ theȱ lightȱwasȱ turnedȱ on,ȱ theȱproprioceptionȱwasȱ reestablishedȱ becauseȱ sheȱ couldȱ thenȱ seeȱwithȱ herȱ eyesȱwhatȱ sheȱwasȱ doing,ȱsoȱsheȱstoppedȱhittingȱherself.ȱThereȱwasȱalsoȱaȱcaseȱpublishedȱofȱ anotherȱ womanȱ whoȱ somehowȱ lostȱ proprioceptionȱ overnight,ȱ andȱ couldnȇtȱmoveȱherȱbodyȱwithoutȱwatchingȱeveryȱmovement.ȱSheȱhadȱtoȱ learnȱtoȱwatchȱveryȱskillfullyȱandȱsomehowȱtoȱgetȱalong;ȱapparentlyȱthatȱ neverȱchanged.ȱ

Normallyȱthisȱqualityȱofȱproprioceptionȱexistsȱforȱtheȱbody.ȱAndȱoneȱofȱ theȱ thingsȱweȱneedȱ toȱseeȱ isȱ theȱrelationȱbetweenȱ theȱ intentionȱtoȱmoveȱ andȱ theȱmovementȱ Ȭȱ toȱseeȱ immediatelyȱ thatȱrelation,ȱ toȱbeȱawareȱofȱ it.ȱ Weȇreȱusuallyȱnotȱveryȱawareȱofȱthisȱintentionȱtoȱmove,ȱbutȱweȱcanȱbe.ȱIfȱ somebodyȱwantsȱ toȱmakeȱ hisȱmovementsȱmoreȱ accurateȱ orȱ skilledȱ heȱ willȱfindȱhisȱintentionȱisȱnotȱthatȱwellȱdefinedȱȬȱheȱdoesnȇtȱmoveȱtheȱwayȱ heȱhopes.ȱSomebodyȱwhoȱwantsȱ toȱplayȱ theȱpiano,ȱ forȱ instance,ȱhasȱ toȱ learnȱthatȱrelationȱbetterȱsoȱthatȱhisȱfingersȱwillȱdoȱwhatȱheȱwantsȱthemȱ toȱdo.ȱSoȱaȱgreaterȱqualityȱofȱproprioceptionȱoccursȱinȱthatȱregard.ȱ

Theȱ essenceȱofȱ theȱmovementȱmayȱbeȱ inȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱmove,ȱwhichȱ unfoldsȱintoȱtheȱwholeȱmovement.ȱForȱexample,ȱweȱknewȱofȱaȱmanȱwhoȱ hadȱ aȱ degenerativeȱ diseaseȱ andȱwasȱ unableȱ toȱmoveȱ atȱ all.ȱHeȱ couldȱ barelyȱtalk.ȱAndȱyetȱheȱtaughtȱmovementȱinȱaȱuniversity.ȱTheȱquestionȱisȱ howȱ heȱ couldȱ doȱ it.ȱ Youȱ couldȱ guessȱ that,ȱ beingȱ veryȱ intelligentȱ andȱ unableȱ toȱmove,ȱ heȱwasȱ somehowȱmuchȱmoreȱ awareȱ ofȱ theȱ intentionȱ thanȱweȱ are,ȱ becauseȱweȱ focusȱ ourȱ attentionȱ onȱ theȱ result.ȱ Therefore,ȱ gettingȱtheȱintentionȱrightȱmayȱbeȱveryȱcrucialȱtoȱmakingȱtheȱmovementȱ

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right.ȱThusȱthereȱisȱsomeȱrelationȱbetweenȱtheȱintentionȱtoȱmoveȱandȱtheȱ movement;ȱ andȱ thereȱ isȱ somethingȱ inȱ betweenȱ thatȱ youȱ areȱ vaguelyȱ awareȱof,ȱwhichȱisȱproprioception.ȱ

ThereȱisȱoneȱpointȱIȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱbringȱupȱnowȱwhichȱisȱrelatedȱtoȱthis.ȱ IȇmȱgoingȱtoȱsayȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱaȱmovementȱȬȱeveryȱreflexȱisȱaȱmovementȱ really.ȱItȱmovesȱfromȱoneȱthingȱtoȱanother.ȱItȱmayȱmoveȱtheȱbodyȱorȱtheȱ chemistryȱ orȱ justȱ simplyȱ theȱ imageȱ orȱ somethingȱ else.ȱ Soȱ whenȱ ȇAȇȱ happensȱȇBȇȱfollows.ȱItȇsȱaȱmovement.ȱ

Allȱtheseȱreflexesȱareȱinterconnectedȱinȱoneȱsystem,ȱandȱtheȱsuggestionȱisȱ thatȱtheyȱareȱnotȱinȱfactȱallȱthatȱdifferent.ȱTheȱintellectualȱpartȱofȱthoughtȱ isȱ moreȱ subtle,ȱ butȱ actuallyȱ allȱ theȱ reflexesȱ areȱ basicallyȱ similarȱ inȱ structure.ȱHence,ȱweȱ shouldȱ thinkȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ asȱ aȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ bodilyȱ movement,ȱatȱ leastȱexploreȱ thatȱpossibility,ȱbecauseȱourȱcultureȱhasȱ ledȱ usȱ toȱbelieveȱ thatȱ thoughtȱandȱbodilyȱmovementȱareȱ reallyȱ twoȱ totallyȱ differentȱspheresȱwhichȱareȱnotȱbasicallyȱconnected.ȱButȱmaybeȱtheyȱareȱ notȱdifferent.ȱTheȱevidenceȱ isȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ intimatelyȱconnectedȱwithȱ theȱwholeȱsystem.ȱ

IfȱweȱsayȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱaȱreflexȱlikeȱanyȱotherȱmuscularȱreflexȱȬȱjustȱaȱlotȱ moreȱ subtleȱ andȱmoreȱ complexȱ andȱ changeableȱ Ȭȱ thenȱweȱoughtȱ toȱbeȱ ableȱ toȱ beȱ proprioceptiveȱ withȱ thought.ȱ Thoughtȱ shouldȱ beȱ ableȱ toȱ perceiveȱ itsȱ ownȱ movement,ȱ beȱ awareȱ ofȱ itsȱ ownȱ movement.ȱ Inȱ theȱ processȱofȱ thoughtȱ thereȱshouldȱbeȱawarenessȱofȱ thatȱmovement,ȱofȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱ thinkȱ andȱ ofȱ theȱ resultȱwhichȱ thatȱ thinkingȱ produces.ȱ Byȱ beingȱmoreȱattentive,ȱweȱcanȱbeȱawareȱofȱhowȱthoughtȱproducesȱaȱresultȱ outsideȱ ourselves.ȱAndȱ thenȱmaybeȱweȱ couldȱ alsoȱ beȱ attentiveȱ toȱ theȱ resultsȱ itȱ producesȱ withinȱ ourselves.ȱ Perhapsȱ weȱ couldȱ evenȱ beȱ immediatelyȱawareȱofȱhowȱ itȱaffectsȱperception.ȱItȱhasȱtoȱbeȱ immediate,ȱ orȱelseȱweȱwillȱneverȱgetȱitȱclear.ȱIfȱyouȱtookȱtimeȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱthis,ȱyouȱ

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wouldȱ beȱ bringingȱ inȱ theȱ reflexesȱ again.ȱ Soȱ isȱ suchȱ proprioceptionȱ possible?ȱIȇmȱraisingȱthatȱquestion.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱwhatȱtheȱquestionȱmeans?ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱ ȇweȇȱhaveȱ toȱ beȱ aware?ȱOrȱ couldȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱ beȱ anȱ awareness;ȱandȱthenȱafterȱthatȱmomentȱofȱawarenessȱsomeȱthoughtȱmayȱ beȱmadeȱaboutȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Canȱ theȱ movementȱ ofȱ theȱ bodyȱ beȱ awareȱ ofȱ itselfȱ proprioceptively?ȱ Youȱ couldȱ askȱ thatȱ question.ȱ Theȱmovementȱ ofȱ theȱ bodyȱ includesȱ allȱ thatȱ goesȱwithȱ itȱ Ȭȱ theȱ awarenessȱ andȱ everything.ȱAȱ movementȱwithoutȱawarenessȱ isȱquiteȱdifferentȱfromȱaȱmovementȱwith.ȱ Soȱcouldȱweȱalsoȱsay,ȱȇcanȱtheȱmovementȱofȱthoughtȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself?ȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱyouȱdistinguishȱthatȱfromȱselfȬconsciousness?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbecauseȱwhenȱyouȱmoveȱtheȱbodyȱandȱareȱawareȱofȱitȱyouȱareȱ notȱselfȬconscious.ȱIfȱyouȱwereȱitȱwouldnȇtȱwork.ȱYouȱmayȱevenȱbeȱveryȱ busyȱ thinkingȱ aboutȱ somethingȱ else,ȱ butȱ youȱ areȱ awareȱ ifȱ youȱ haveȱ movedȱ yourȱ body.ȱ Whateverȱ youȱ areȱ doing,ȱ youȱ takeȱ directlyȱ intoȱ accountȱ whetherȱ youȱ haveȱ producedȱ thatȱ movement,ȱ andȱ youȱ actȱ accordingly.ȱ

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Supposeȱyouȱpushȱonȱsomethingȱandȱ itȱmoves.ȱYouȱknowȱ immediatelyȱ thatȱyouȱmovedȱit.ȱThatȇsȱdifferentȱfromȱthinkingȱthatȱitȱsuddenlyȱmovedȱ byȱ itself.ȱYouȱareȱawareȱofȱ it,ȱandȱyouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱ toȱbeȱ thinkingȱaboutȱ yourself.ȱThatȱ sortȱofȱawarenessȱ isȱalsoȱnecessaryȱ forȱyouȱ toȱbeȱableȱ toȱ walkȱproperly,ȱorȱwhatever.ȱ

Thisȱwholeȱmovementȱ isȱ somehowȱ awareȱ ofȱ theȱ relationȱ betweenȱ theȱ intentionȱandȱtheȱresult,ȱbecauseȱyouȱsay:ȱȇThatȱisȱaȱresultȱofȱmyȱintentionȱ toȱmoveȱandȱthisȱotherȱisȱnot.ȱThisȱcameȱfromȱsomewhereȱelse.ȇȱButȱyouȱ donȇtȱ putȱ thatȱ inȱ wordsȱ orȱ goȱ throughȱ aȱ complicatedȱ analysisȱ orȱ anything.ȱYouȱareȱsomehowȱdirectlyȱaware,ȱandȱthenȱallȱtheȱreflexesȱcanȱ behaveȱaccordingly.ȱIsȱthatȱclear?ȱ

Now,ȱsupposeȱthoughtȱcouldȱdoȱthis.ȱIȇveȱgivenȱanȱargumentȱsayingȱwhyȱ itȱshouldȱbeȱableȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱIfȱthoughtȱisȱjustȱanȱextensionȱofȱallȱthoseȱbodyȱ reflexes,ȱmaybeȱ thoughtȱ couldȱbeȱdirectlyȱ awareȱofȱ itsȱmovement,ȱ andȱ thenȱcouldȱbeȱawareȱofȱwhatȱitȱisȱdoing.ȱTheȱbasicȱtroubleȱwithȱthoughtȱ nowȱisȱthatȱitȱparticipatesȱandȱisȱnotȱawareȱofȱhowȱitȱisȱparticipating.ȱ

Q:ȱMayȱweȱgoȱbackȱtoȱtheȱphysical?ȱIȱdidnȇtȱunderstandȱwhatȱwasȱmeantȱ byȱ ȇselfȬconsciousȇ.ȱIȱwouldnȇtȱputȱtheȱselfȱintoȱit,ȱbutȱratherȱIȱwouldȱsayȱ thatȱyouȱactuallyȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱwithȱthatȱmovementȱorȱwithȱthatȱsensationȱ atȱthatȱmoment.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbutȱyouȇreȱnotȱawareȱofȱyourselfȱthinkingȱandȱbeingȱseparateȱ fromȱ theȱmovement.ȱWhenȱ youȱ sayȱ ȇIȱ amȱ thinkingȱ aboutȱmyselfȇ,ȱ youȱ beginȱtoȱgetȱintoȱthatȱsortȱofȱthing.ȱ

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Ifȱ thoughtȱ triedȱ toȱ lookȱ atȱ itselfȱ inȱ theȱusualȱway,ȱ byȱ separatingȱ itselfȱ fromȱ itself,ȱ thenȱ itȱ couldnȇtȱ doȱ it.ȱ Butȱ supposeȱ thought,ȱ withoutȱ separatingȱitselfȱinȱanyȱway,ȱwouldȱjustȱbeȱawareȱthatȱitȱisȱmoving.ȱAndȱ variousȱ thingsȱ areȱ happening,ȱ includingȱ thingsȱ outsideȱ andȱ thingsȱ happeningȱ insideȱ Ȭȱ notȱ onlyȱ feelingsȱ andȱ thingsȱ likeȱ that,ȱ butȱ alsoȱ perceptionsȱ areȱ beingȱ affected,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Couldȱ weȱ beȱ awareȱ Ȭȱ immediatelyȱseeȱitȱȬȱthatȱthisȱchangeȱofȱperceptionȱcameȱthroughȱthoughtȱ andȱthatȱchangeȱofȱperceptionȱcameȱbecauseȱtheȱobjectȱactuallyȱchanged?ȱ Thisȱisȱimportant.ȱ

Iȱmayȱperceiveȱthatȱyouȱsuddenlyȱbecameȱangryȱatȱme.ȱThatȱmayȱhappenȱ becauseȱ youȱ actuallyȱ becameȱ angry.ȱ Butȱ Iȱ couldȱ alsoȱ haveȱ suddenlyȱ thoughtȱofȱsomethingȱwhichȱmadeȱmeȱseeȱyouȱasȱangryȱȬȱthatȇsȱparanoia.ȱ Suppose,ȱforȱexample,ȱtheȱbossȱisȱwalkingȱalongȱwithȱaȱnondescriptȱlookȱ onȱhisȱface.ȱIȱlookȱatȱhimȱandȱthink:ȱȇHeȇsȱunhappyȱandȱfrowning.ȱMaybeȱ heȱisȱthinkingȱheȇsȱgoingȱtoȱfireȱme.ȇȱSoȱIȱseeȱhimȱasȱreadyȱtoȱfireȱme.ȱThatȱ cameȱfromȱmyȱperceptionȱbeingȱaffectedȱbyȱthought.ȱOnȱtheȱotherȱhand,ȱ maybeȱheȱisȱactuallyȱreadyȱtoȱfireȱme.ȱTheȱdistinctionȱisȱveryȱimportant.ȱ Andȱyouȱmayȱevenȱhelpȱtoȱmakeȱitȱhappenȱbyȱseeingȱitȱwrongly,ȱbecauseȱ youȱwillȱbehaveȱinȱaȱwayȱwhichȱwillȱinduceȱhimȱtoȱwantȱtoȱdoȱit.ȱ

Weȱareȱusuallyȱableȱ toȱgetȱ someȱofȱ thoseȱquestionsȱ straightȱaboutȱhowȱ thoughtȱaffectsȱperception,ȱ sayingȱ ȇOK,ȱ thatȇsȱ justȱmyȱ imaginationȇ.ȱButȱ veryȱoftenȱweȱdonȇt.ȱParanoiaȱ isȱaȱcaseȱwhereȱproprioceptionȱhasȱ failedȱ stillȱmore,ȱandȱpeopleȱhaveȱaȱmuchȱharderȱ timeȱgettingȱ itȱstraight,ȱ ifȱatȱ all.ȱTheȱparanoidȱpersonȱ canȇtȱ tellȱ theȱdifferenceȱbetweenȱwhatȱheȱhasȱ doneȱ andȱ whatȱ hasȱ happenedȱ independently.ȱ Heȱ seesȱ threatsȱ everywhere,ȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱhisȱownȱthoughts.ȱHeȱprojectsȱhisȱownȱfears,ȱ andȱ soȱ forth,ȱ intoȱ hisȱ perceptionsȱ allȱ theȱ time.ȱ Peopleȱ areȱ doingȱ thatȱ

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anyway,ȱbutȱinȱparanoiaȱitȱgetsȱexaggeratedȱbeyondȱwhatȱpeopleȱusuallyȱ doȱandȱsuchȱpeopleȱbecomeȱunableȱtoȱfunction.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱsomethingȱhappensȱlikeȱaȱbossȱisȱwalkingȱdownȱtheȱhallȱwithȱaȱ particularȱexpressionȱonȱhisȱface,ȱthatȱmayȱbeȱ justȱaȱperceptualȱfact.ȱButȱ anyȱinterpretationȱonȱthatȱhasȱtoȱbeȱquestioned.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Butȱ theȱ difficultyȱ isȱ thatȱ youȱ donȇtȱ seeȱ itȱ asȱ anȱ interpretation,ȱ especiallyȱifȱyouȱareȱparanoid.ȱTheȱthoughtȱorȱtheȱinterpretationȱthatȱyouȱ had,ȱ whichȱ isȱ aȱ representationȱ ofȱ aȱ bossȱ whoȱ isȱ readyȱ toȱ fireȱ you,ȱ becomesȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱbossȱwhoȱisȱreadyȱtoȱfireȱyou.ȱ

Q:ȱDonȇtȱweȱallȱdoȱthat?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Weȱ allȱ doȱ itȱ butȱ toȱ differentȱ degrees.ȱ Paranoiaȱ isȱ merelyȱ exaggerationȱofȱtheȱusualȱbehaviour.ȱItȱgoesȱtooȱfar.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsȱitȱlikeȱleprosyȱinȱthought?ȱYesterdayȱyouȱtalkedȱaboutȱleprosyȱasȱifȱ itȱwasȱsomeȱproblemȱwithȱproprioception.ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱisȱinȱaȱway.ȱWithȱleprosy,ȱtheȱnervesȱwhichȱwillȱtellȱtheȱmusclesȱ whatȱ theyȱ areȱdoingȱhaveȱ beenȱdamagedȱ andȱ theyȱdonȇtȱ feelȱ theȱpainȱ whichȱyouȱshouldȱfeelȱwhenȱyouȱoverȬexert.ȱAndȱthereforeȱyouȱmayȱpullȱ theȱwholeȱ noseȱ outȱ ofȱ joint.ȱYouȱmayȱ pullȱ yourȱ fingersȱ off.ȱYouȱmayȱ destroyȱeverythingȱbecauseȱyouȱareȱnotȱbeingȱ informedȱproperlyȱofȱ theȱ forceȱyouȱareȱusing.ȱAndȱthenȱwhenȱyouȱseeȱtheȱlimbsȱcomingȱoffȱorȱtheȱ fingersȱ comingȱ offȱ youȱ sayȱ ȇmyȱ God,ȱ theȱ fingersȱ areȱ comingȱ offȱ byȱ themselvesȇ.ȱButȱyouȇreȱactuallyȱpullingȱthemȱoffȱwithoutȱnoticing.ȱ

Q:ȱDoesnȇtȱparanoiaȱhaveȱqualitiesȱlikeȱthat?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱdoes.ȱForȱexample,ȱifȱsomebodyȱtreatsȱaȱpersonȱasȱanȱenemyȱorȱ asȱ aȱ threatȱ thenȱ itȱ willȱ becomeȱ visibleȱ andȱ thatȱ personȱmayȱ becomeȱ frightenedȱandȱrespond.ȱ

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Q:ȱAreȱallȱrepresentationsȱwithinȱ theȱsystem?ȱCouldȱ thereȱbeȱaȱ formȱofȱ representationȱofȱanotherȱdimension?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱsystemȱproducesȱrepresentations.ȱInȱsoȱfarȱasȱtheyȱareȱbasedȱ onȱtheȱpastȱtheyȱareȱinȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱwayȱweȱfunctionȱnow,ȱtheȱbrainȱisȱnotȱproprioceptive?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱisȱinȱmanyȱways,ȱbutȱnotȱinȱthisȱwayȱȬȱnotȱinȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsuggestingȱthatȱitȱmayȱbeȱpossibleȱtoȱfunctionȱinȱaȱmodeȱthatȱ actsȱasȱifȱthereȱwereȱproprioception?ȱ

Bohm:ȱOrȱwhereȱthere,ȱinȱfact,ȱwouldȱbeȱproprioception.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱ fromȱtheȱargumentȱIȇveȱgiven,ȱIȱdonȇtȱseeȱwhyȱIȱshouldȱdistinguishȱwhatȱ goesȱonȱ inȱtheȱbrainȱfromȱwhatȱgoesȱonȱanywhereȱ inȱtheȱbody,ȱorȱwhatȱ goesȱ onȱ inȱ thoughtȱ fromȱ whatȱ goesȱ onȱ withȱ theȱ muscles,ȱ orȱ withȱ anything.ȱTheyȱareȱallȱbasicallyȱsimilar,ȱthoughȱdifferentȱinȱmanyȱways.ȱ

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Q:ȱDoesȱtheȱlackȱofȱproprioceptionȱinȱthoughtȱasȱweȱnowȱknowȱitȱmeanȱ thatȱ Iȱ cannotȱ distinguishȱwhetherȱ anȱ imageȱ isȱ basedȱ onȱ thatȱwhichȱ isȱ goingȱonȱorȱonȱwhatȱIȱthinkȱisȱgoingȱon?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱright.ȱWeȱshouldȱbeȱableȱ toȱsay:ȱ ȇIȱseeȱwhatȱ isȱgoingȱon.ȱ Iȱ haveȱ formedȱ inferences.ȱ Iȱ distinguishȱmyȱ inferencesȱ fromȱwhatȱ Iȱ see.ȱ AndȱIȱwillȱcheckȱmyȱinferencesȱagainstȱwhatȱIȱseeȱlater.ȱButȱmyȱseeingȱisȱ notȱ confusedȱwithȱ theȱ inferences.ȇȱThatȱwouldȱbeȱ commonȱ sense,ȱ clearȱ thinking.ȱButȱnowȱ thatȱ isȱblockedȱbyȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ someȱofȱ theȱ thingsȱ Iȱ ȇseeȇȱhaveȱactuallyȱbeenȱprojectedȱbyȱmyȱthoughtȱorȱmyȱrepresentations.ȱ Andȱ thenȱwhenȱ Iȱ startȱ thinkingȱ aboutȱ them,ȱ Iȇmȱ thinkingȱ aboutȱ themȱ wrongly.ȱ Theyȱ areȱ conclusions.ȱ Asȱ theyȱ sayȱ inȱ theȱ court,ȱ theyȱ areȱ conclusionsȱandȱnotȱfacts.ȱButȱtheyȱlookȱlikeȱfacts.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱsometimesȱwhatȱweȱperceiveȱisȱterrifying.ȱButȱitȱmayȱbeȱactuallyȱ thatȱtheȱwayȱweȱperceiveȱisȱterrifying.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱweȱ areȱ projectingȱ terribleȱ things.ȱWhenȱ youȱ areȱ dreamingȱ youȱmayȱprojectȱterribleȱthingsȱintoȱtheȱdream.ȱItȇsȱtheȱsameȱsortȱofȱthing.ȱ Whatȱyouȱperceiveȱ inȱaȱdreamȱmayȱbeȱentirelyȱdueȱtoȱthought,ȱbutȱ itȱ isȱ quiteȱconvincingȱasȱaȱperception.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱ Iȱmeantȱwasȱ thatȱ ifȱweȱhadȱproprioception,ȱprobablyȱ theȱ firstȱ thingȱweȱwouldȱnoticeȱisȱthatȱthereȱisȱsomethingȱterrifyingȱactuallyȱgoingȱ

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on,ȱwhichȱ isȱ theȱwayȱweȱseeȱ things.ȱTheȱwayȱ theȱ thoughtȱ isȱworkingȱ isȱ dangerous.ȱ

Bohm:ȱOrȱperhapsȱifȱthereȱwereȱproprioceptionȱweȱwouldnȇtȱgoȱonȱwithȱ thisȱinsaneȱwayȱofȱperceiving.ȱ

Q:ȱ Inȱ orderȱ forȱ itȱ toȱ occur,ȱ oneȱwouldȱ haveȱ toȱ haveȱ noȱ censoringȱ ofȱ whateverȱcameȱup.ȱAndȱthatȇsȱveryȱpainfulȱandȱdifficult.ȱ

Rohm:ȱButȱwhatȱ tellsȱ youȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱpainfulȱ andȱdifficultȱ isȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱ thoughtȱ process.ȱ Theȱ painȱmayȱ comeȱ fromȱ theȱ sameȱ systemȱwhichȱ isȱ causingȱallȱtheȱrestȱofȱtheȱtrouble.ȱTheȱthoughtȱprocessȱsaysȱȇthatȇsȱgoingȱ toȱbeȱveryȱpainfulȱandȱdifficultȇ.ȱAndȱthereforeȱyouȱwillȱfeelȱit,ȱjustȱasȱyouȱ feelȱtheȱrealityȱofȱtheȱtable.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱ sayingȱ then,ȱ thatȱ theȱhumanȱ speciesȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱwhatȱ itȱ doesȱandȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱhowȱitȱperceives,ȱandȱthatȱthereȱmightȱbeȱanotherȱ wayȱofȱseeing?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱThereforeȱtheȱfirstȱthingȱisȱthatȱthoughtȱitselfȱmustȱchangeȱinȱ someȱway.ȱIȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱgiveȱanȱimageȱorȱanȱanalogy.ȱIȱwantȱtoȱsayȱthatȱ

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thoughtȱtakesȱitselfȱasȱveryȱbig.ȱButȱmaybeȱitȇsȱjustȱaȱrippleȱonȱtheȱstream.ȱ Andȱ theȱ streamȱ isȱ theȱ streamȱ ofȱ consciousness.ȱ Soȱ theȱ streamȱ ofȱ consciousnessȱhasȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself.ȱButȱthatȇsȱnoȱgreatȱthingȱbecauseȱ consciousnessȱ isȱ simplyȱ allowedȱ toȱ beȱ aware.ȱTheȱ questionȱ is:ȱ canȱ theȱ streamȱofȱconsciousnessȱbeȱproprioceptivelyȱawareȱofȱthisȱrippleȱthatȱitȱisȱ producing,ȱjustȱasȱitȱisȱawareȱofȱhowȱitȱmovesȱtheȱbody?ȱ

Q:ȱ Thatȇsȱ somehowȱ addressingȱ theȱ difficultyȱ Iȇveȱ beenȱ havingȱ aboutȱ understandingȱhowȱ thoughtȱ couldȱbeȱawareȱofȱ itself.ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ toȱmakeȱ perfectȱsenseȱwhenȱyouȱdescribeȱit.ȱButȱIȱhaveȱsomeȱnotionȱthatȱthought,ȱ beingȱmemory,ȱcanȱonlyȱdescribe;ȱitȱcanȇtȱbeȱaware.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱthoughtȱisȱalsoȱmore.ȱ

Q:ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱ Iȱmean.ȱYouȱuseȱ theȱphraseȱ ȇtheȱmovementȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ beingȱawareȱofȱitselfȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱInȱaȱsense,ȱmemoryȱisȱmoreȱthanȱjustȱmemory,ȱbecauseȱmemoryȱisȱ aȱsetȱofȱreflexes.ȱItȇsȱaȱmovement.ȱWhatȱmemoryȱactuallyȱis,ȱisȱmovement.ȱ Theȱwordȱ ȇmemoryȇȱ usuallyȱ representsȱ somethingȱ justȱ storedȱ up.ȱ Butȱ memoryȱ isȱ alsoȱ aȱ movementȱ inȱ theȱ brain.ȱ Andȱ memory,ȱ whichȱ isȱ abstraction,ȱisȱaȱrepresentationȱofȱsomethingȱwhichȱisȱitselfȱnotȱabstract.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Ifȱmemoryȱ isȱ aȱmovement,ȱ thenȱwhatȱyouȱ callȱ ȇconditioningȇȱorȱ theȱ tapeȬrecordingȱofȱassumptionsȱisȱalsoȱaȱmovement.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱButȱtheȱtapeȱisȱtooȱmechanicalȱanȱanalogy;ȱIȱwouldȱratherȱnotȱ sayȱ ȇtapedȇ,ȱ butȱ ȇconditionedȇ.ȱ Youȱ canȱ thinkȱ thatȱ eachȱ timeȱ youȱ doȱ something,ȱ itȱ leavesȱaȱ littleȱbitȱofȱchangeȱ inȱtheȱnervesȱsoȱ itȱbuildsȱupȱaȱ pattern.ȱItȱgetsȱmoreȱandȱmoreȱfixed.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱ youȱ sayȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ likeȱ theȱ rippleȱ onȱ theȱ surfaceȱ ofȱ theȱ streamȱofȱconsciousness,ȱthatȱmakesȱitȱsoundȱasȱifȱinȱprincipleȱitȱshouldȱ beȱveryȱsimpleȱandȱeasyȱtoȱseeȱthisȱripple.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ mayȱ beȱ actually,ȱ butȱ weȱ donȇt.ȱ Beingȱ inȱ thisȱ modeȱ ofȱ consciousnessȱweȱ areȱ nowȱ in,ȱ thisȱ rippleȱ seemsȱ toȱ beȱ everything.ȱ Itȱ isȱ representedȱtoȱbeȱeverythingȱandȱthereforeȱperceivedȱasȱeverything.ȱ

Q:ȱThatȱmightȱbeȱoneȱofȱ theȱmistakesȱ Ȭȱ thatȱweȱ thinkȱ itȇsȱmoreȱdifficultȱ thanȱitȱmayȱinȱfactȱbe.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱbeȱ so.ȱWeȱ canȇtȱ countȱonȱwhatȱ thoughtȱ tellsȱusȱaboutȱ howȱdifficultȱitȱis.ȱThoughtȱdoesnȇtȱreallyȱknow.ȱSoȱitȇsȱbestȱtoȱsayȱthatȱweȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ howȱ difficultȱ itȱ is;ȱ andȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱwhateverȱ thoughtȱ saysȱ aboutȱthis,ȱitȱdoesnȇtȱreallyȱknow.ȱ

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Q:ȱThisȱthingȱofȱproprioceptionȱfunctioningȱinȱtheȱthoughtȱprocessȱȬȱtheȱ thoughtȱbeingȱawareȱofȱ itselfȱ Ȭȱcanȱyouȱapproachȱthatȱ inȱsomeȱdifferentȱ way?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱthoughtȱisȱnowȱconditionedȱtoȱtheȱrepresentationȱofȱitselfȱinȱ variousȱways:ȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ differentȱ fromȱ theȱ body,ȱ thatȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ affectȱ perception,ȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ justȱ tellingȱyouȱ theȱwayȱ thingsȱare,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱAndȱ therefore,ȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱwayȱyouȱperceiveȱhowȱ thoughtȱworks.ȱWhateverȱ thoughtȱrepresentsȱcanȱbecomeȱhowȱyouȱperceiveȱit.ȱNow,ȱ ȇoutsideȇȱyouȱ haveȱaȱcheckȱforȱyourȱperceptions.ȱIfȱyouȱperceiveȱthisȱasȱaȱcupȱwhenȱitȱisȱ somethingȱelse,ȱyouȱwillȱsoonȱfindȱoutȱbyȱsensoryȱexperienceȱthatȱthatȱisȱ incoherent.ȱSoȱperceptionsȱwhichȱareȱmistakenȱshowȱupȱasȱ incoherenceȱ andȱweȱcorrectȱthem.ȱButȱȇinsideȇȱitȱisȱmuchȱharder,ȱbecauseȱyouȱcanȇtȱgetȱ holdȱofȱit.ȱWeȱspeakȱofȱthoughtȱasȱbeingȱinside;ȱitȱisnȇtȱreally,ȱbecauseȱitȱisȱ alsoȱtheȱwholeȱworld.ȱ

Thoughtȱpresentsȱ itselfȱasȱ separateȱ fromȱperception,ȱasȱ justȱ tellingȱyouȱ theȱwayȱthingsȱare.ȱThoughtȱhasȱthisȱpictureȱofȱhowȱitȱworksȱȬȱthatȱyouȱ seeȱcertainȱ thingsȱandȱ thenȱ thoughtȱmerelyȱ tellsȱyouȱmoreȱaboutȱ them;ȱ thatȱ itȱ drawsȱ inferences,ȱ itȱ doesȱ nothingȱ andȱ hasȱ noȱ effect.ȱ Thereforeȱ thatȇsȱtheȱwayȱyouȱseeȱthought.ȱButȱthoughtȱisȱactuallyȱdoingȱmoreȱthanȱ that.ȱItȱisȱaffectingȱhowȱyouȱperceiveȱeverything.ȱIsȱthatȱclear?ȱ

Q:ȱYouȇreȱsayingȱthatȱtheȱthoughtȬbodyȱprocessȱisȱoneȱmovement.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes.ȱAndȱalsoȱtheȱperception,ȱtheȱsenseȱperception.ȱ

Q:ȱThereȇsȱalsoȱawareness.ȱAwarenessȱmustȱbeȱupstreamȱfromȱallȱofȱthis.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Fundamentally,ȱ yes.ȱ Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ availableȱ onȱ awareness,ȱaȱstreamȱofȱconsciousness,ȱwhichȱisȱmoreȱfundamental,ȱwhichȱ Iȱimagedȱasȱbeingȱinȱtheȱdepthȱofȱtheȱocean.ȱButȱawareness,ȱtoo,ȱmayȱbeȱ confusedȱwithȱtheȱoperationȱofȱtheȱsystem,ȱbecauseȱtheȱsystemȱcanȱmakeȱ aȱrepresentationȱofȱawarenessȱandȱthenȱtakeȱtheȱrepresentationȱtoȱbeȱthatȱ fundamentalȱconsciousnessȱitself.ȱ

Weȱ sayȱ thoughtȱ isȱ aȱ representation,ȱ itȇsȱ aȱ form.ȱ Aȱ representationȱ isȱ alwaysȱaȱ certainȱ form.ȱTheȱ rainbowȱ isȱaȱ certainȱ form.ȱTheȱ lettersȱareȱaȱ certainȱform.ȱTheȱartistȱmakesȱaȱform.ȱAȱrepresentationȱisȱalwaysȱaȱform;ȱ butȱ thatȱ formȱ thenȱ becomes,ȱ apparently,ȱ aȱ partȱ ofȱ ȇwhatȱ isȇ.ȱ Now,ȱ everybodyȱcanȱseeȱthatȱaȱrepresentationȱ isȱhardlyȱmoreȱthanȱaȱripple;ȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱhaveȱmuchȱsubstanceȱ Ȭȱanybodyȱcanȱseeȱ that.ȱButȱwhenȱ itȱ fusesȱ withȱperception,ȱthenȱitȱseemsȱtoȱhaveȱallȱtheȱsubstance.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱrepresentationȱ isȱanȱabstraction,ȱ itȇsȱaȱsymbolȱwhichȱalsoȱhasȱ itsȱ physicalȱcomponents.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱItȱhas,ȱbutȱasȱaȱphysicalȱthingȱitȱisȱvery,ȱveryȱtinyȱIȱmean,ȱitȱmayȱ beȱonlyȱaȱ fewȱbitsȱofȱ inkȱonȱpaper,ȱorȱsomeȱ littleȱelectricȱcurrentȱ inȱ theȱ brain.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱdoesȱnotȱhaveȱaȱstructure?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ hasȱ aȱ structure.ȱ Theȱ formȱ hasȱ aȱ structure,ȱ butȱ itȱ hasȱ noȱ independentȱsubstance.ȱItȱhasȱnoȱinherentȱinternalȱnecessity.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱ youȱ representȱ itȱ asȱ theȱ surface,ȱwithȱ somethingȱmoreȱ subtleȱ underneath?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱWhenȱyouȱlookȱatȱtheȱsurfaceȱofȱtheȱocean,ȱallȱsortsȱofȱformsȱ willȱappearȱonȱthoseȱwaves.ȱTheyȱchangeȱthisȱwayȱandȱthatȱwayȱandȱtheȱ otherȱway.ȱThereȇsȱveryȱlittleȱtoȱholdȱthem.ȱThereȱisȱveryȱlittleȱinȱit.ȱAndȱ thenȱyouȱhaveȱtheȱdepth.ȱ

Thoseȱ forms,ȱ however,ȱ haveȱ aȱmeaningȱ inȱ theȱmind.ȱAndȱ everythingȱ followsȱaccordingȱtoȱthatȱmeaningȱȬȱitȱhasȱto.ȱButȱanȱimportantȱpartȱofȱtheȱ meaningȱisȱwrong,ȱbecauseȱoneȱpartȱisȱmissing:ȱnamely,ȱitȱshouldȱmeanȱ thatȱ thatȱ isȱonlyȱanȱoutwardȱ formȱonȱ theȱ surface.ȱButȱ insteadȱ itȱmeansȱ thatȱthatȱformȱisȱtheȱbasicȱsubstanceȱofȱȇwhatȱisȇ.ȱ

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Q:ȱDoesȱthatȱimplyȱthatȱthereȱareȱtwoȱkindsȱofȱperceptionȱȬoneȱsuperficialȱ andȱoneȱofȱessence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thereȱmayȱ beȱ aȱ deeperȱ perception,ȱ oneȱwhichȱ startsȱfromȱtheseȱdepths.ȱButȱwhatȱweȱordinarilyȱtakeȱtoȱbeȱperceptionȱȬȱ orȱatȱleastȱwhatȱthoughtȱtakesȱtoȱbeȱperception,ȱwhichȱweȱordinarilyȱcallȱ ȇperceptionȇȱȬȱisȱhighlyȱaffectedȱbyȱthought.ȱCertainly,ȱourȱordinaryȱsenseȱ perceptionȱ isȱ generallyȱ ofȱ thatȱ nature,ȱ thoughȱ itȱ mayȱ perhapsȱ occasionallyȱgetȱoutȱofȱit.ȱ

Atȱthisȱmomentȱweȱonlyȱhaveȱtoȱworryȱaboutȱwhatȱthoughtȱisȱtakingȱasȱ theȱ sourceȱ ofȱ itsȱ information.ȱ Now,ȱ thoughtȱ takesȱ senseȱ perception,ȱ amongȱ otherȱ things,ȱ asȱ theȱ sourceȱ ofȱ itsȱ information;ȱ andȱ itȱ saysȱ thatȱ senseȱ perceptionȱ isȱ unaffectedȱ byȱ thoughtȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ justȱ tellingȱ youȱ something.ȱAndȱ thoughtȱwillȱ thenȱproceedȱ fromȱ there.ȱButȱ itȱmayȱ turnȱ outȱ thatȱ theȱperceptionȱhasȱalreadyȱbeenȱaffectedȱbyȱ thought,ȱandȱ thatȱ thoughtȱisȱthusȱtakingȱsomethingȱitȱhasȱdoneȱasȱbeingȱaȱfactȱindependentȱ ofȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱWhichȱpreventsȱtheȱdepthȱperception?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Eventuallyȱ itȱmuddlesȱ theȱ brainȱ upȱ soȱmuchȱ thatȱ itȱ preventsȱ almostȱeverything.ȱBasedȱonȱthatȱapparentȱfactȱaȱlotȱofȱotherȱthingsȱstartȱ

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toȱhappen,ȱandȱtheȱbrainȱmuddlesȱup.ȱFromȱthatȱgoingȱwrong,ȱitȱspreadsȱ andȱbecomesȱaȱsystemicȱfault.ȱItȱspreadsȱintoȱeverything.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱ youȱ sayȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱ nonȬperceptionȱ ofȱ theȱ interferenceȱ ofȱ thought,ȱthereȇsȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱinterferenceȱofȱthoughtȱandȱthereȇsȱnoȱ thoughtȱinterfering?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱthoseȱareȱpossibleȱstates.ȱLetȇsȱsupposeȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱableȱtoȱ beȱ awareȱ ofȱ itsȱ ownȱ effects.ȱ Thenȱwhenȱ itȱ isȱ producingȱ effectsȱwhichȱ makeȱnoȱsenseȱitȱwouldȱsimplyȱstopȱdoingȱso.ȱThoughtȱisȱnotȱmaliciouslyȱ tryingȱ toȱ destroyȱ everything.ȱ Itȱ isȱ apparentlyȱ doingȱwhateverȱ itȱ doesȱ accordingȱtoȱitsȱownȱmechanism.ȱ

Whenȱyouȱhaveȱproprioceptionȱofȱtheȱbody,ȱyouȱwouldnȇtȱmakeȱtheȱsortȱ ofȱmistakeȱ thatȱyouȱwouldȱ ifȱyouȱdidnȇtȱhaveȱ itȱ Ȭȱ likeȱ thatȱwomanȱwhoȱ gotȱintoȱattackingȱherself.ȱSimilarly,ȱwhenȱyouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱproprioceptiveȱ thought,ȱ youȱmayȱ startȱ attackingȱ yourself,ȱ youȱ hurtȱ yourself.ȱYouȱ sayȱ ȇIȇmȱ hurtȇ,ȱ underȱ theȱ impressionȱ thatȱ theȱ attackȱ hasȱ comeȱ fromȱ theȱ outsideȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱYouȇreȱ talkingȱ notȱ soȱmuchȱ aboutȱ aȱwayȱ ofȱ thinkingȱ butȱ aȱwayȱ ofȱ perception?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȱ isȱ someȱextensionȱofȱperception.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱperhapsȱ suchȱanȱextensionȱofȱperceptionȱisȱpossible.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱproprioceptionȱofȱthoughtȱtakeȱplaceȱnotȱinȱwhatȱweȱthinkȱofȱ asȱthought,ȱbutȱactuallyȱinȱtheȱphysical,ȱsinceȱtheyȱareȱallȱtheȱsameȱthing?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱactuallyȱtheȱcase.ȱSinceȱitȱisȱallȱphysicalȱitȇsȱanȱextensionȱofȱ theȱordinaryȱproprioceptionȱ intoȱsomethingȱmoreȱsubtle,ȱbutȱstillȱofȱtheȱ sameȱ generalȱ nature.ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ pointȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ make;ȱ thatȱ thisȱ distinctionȱ betweenȱ thoughtȱ andȱ theȱphysicalȱ isȱ oneȱwhereȱweȱ shouldȱ justȱ drawȱ aȱ dottedȱ line.ȱ Butȱweȱ haveȱ drawnȱ aȱ greatȱ bigȱ gulfȱ betweenȱ themȱinȱourȱthought.ȱAndȱthereforeȱweȱperceiveȱthemȱthatȱway.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱwonderȱifȱoneȱofȱtheȱreasonsȱwhyȱpeopleȱaskȱtoȱhaveȱthisȱexplainedȱ overȱ andȱ overȱ againȱ isȱ thatȱwhenȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇthoughtȱ beingȱ awareȱ ofȱ itsȱ ownȱmovementȇ,ȱ or,ȱ ȇproprioceptionȇ,ȱ theȱ thinkingȱmakesȱ anȱ imageȱ ofȱ whatȱthatȱwouldȱbe.ȱAndȱratherȱthanȱjustȱlisteningȱtoȱwhatȱyouȇreȱsayingȱ aboutȱ thoughtȱ noticingȱ itsȱ activity,ȱ thoughtȱ startsȱ tryingȱ toȱ makeȱ aȱ descriptionȱofȱwhatȱitȱwouldȱbeȱlikeȱtoȱbeȱaware.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱAndȱtheȱdifficultyȱwithȱthatȱdescriptionȱisȱthatȱitȱentersȱyourȱ perception.ȱItȱwouldȱbeȱallȱrightȱtoȱdescribeȱitȱifȱyouȱsaidȱȇfranklyȱthisȱisȱaȱ speculativeȱattemptȱtoȱimagineȱwhatȱitȱmightȱbe,ȱbutȱitȱmightȱnotȱbeȱthatȱ atȱ allȇ.ȱ Butȱ insteadȱ youȱ justȱ representȱ itȱ inȱ theȱ imagination;ȱ andȱ veryȱ quicklyȱ itȱ spreadsȱoverȱ andȱ becomes,ȱ apparently,ȱ someȱkindȱ ofȱ realityȱ

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whichȱmisleadsȱyou.ȱNow,ȱthatȱveryȱprocessȱȬȱtheȱthingȱweȱjustȱdescribedȱ Ȭȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱfaultȱinȱtheȱsystem.ȱItȇsȱjustȱanotherȱformȱofȱtheȱfault.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱifȱIȇmȱnotȱableȱtoȱmakeȱmuchȱofȱaȱdescription,ȱandȱIȱsayȱIȱcanȇtȱ doȱthis?ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱthenȱthatȱentersȱyourȱperceptionȱasȱimpossibleȱandȱthereforeȱ youȱperceiveȱaȱblock.ȱ Ifȱ itȇsȱ impossibleȱ thenȱ itȱ isȱnotȱ evenȱnecessaryȱ toȱ listen.ȱIȱmean,ȱyouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱtoȱtakeȱitȱseriouslyȱatȱall.ȱTheȱrestȱfollows.ȱ

Q:ȱ Soȱ weȇreȱ notȱ goingȱ toȱ getȱ outȱ ofȱ theȱ situationȱ whereȱ ourȱ representationsȱorȱthinkingȱhaveȱanȱeffect.ȱButȱrather,ȱweȱareȱtoȱbeȱmoreȱ awareȱofȱwhatȇsȱhappeningȱinȱthere.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱAndȱ alsoȱ toȱ describeȱ itȱ correctlyȱwhenȱweȱ doȱ seeȱwhatȱ isȱ happening;ȱbecauseȱifȱweȱseeȱwhatȱisȱhappeningȱandȱdescribeȱitȱwrongly,ȱ weȱwillȱ beȱmisinformingȱ theȱ systemȱ aboutȱwhatȱ itȱ isȱ doing,ȱ andȱ theȱ systemȱwillȱthenȱgetȱmoreȱconfused.ȱAllȱtheȱinformationȱtheȱsystemȱhasȱ aboutȱitselfȱaffectsȱwhatȱitȱdoes.ȱ

Itȇsȱimportantȱtoȱgraspȱthis.ȱGraspingȱitȱintellectually,ȱorȱperhapsȱaȱlittleȱ bitȱbeyond,ȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱfirstȱstep,ȱbecauseȱthisȱwillȱhelpȱclearȱawayȱaȱlotȱ ofȱ theȱ confusion.ȱButȱ asȱ longȱ asȱyouȱ areȱ tacitlyȱ acceptingȱ allȱ theȱotherȱ

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ideasȱaboutȱ thisȱprocessȱyouȱareȱgoingȱ toȱseeȱ itȱ thatȱway,ȱandȱyouȱwillȱ neverȱgetȱintoȱit.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱwhatȱIȱmean?ȱ

Soȱ itȇsȱveryȱ importantȱ toȱdrawȱ correctȱ inferencesȱ aboutȱ thought.ȱTheseȱ areȱnotȱmereȱidleȱspeculations;ȱrather,ȱweȱhaveȱbeenȱobservingȱandȱthenȱ drawingȱinferences,ȱandȱthenȱtryingȱtoȱtestȱthemȱasȱfarȱasȱweȱcanȱorȱseeȱ whetherȱweȱ feelȱ theyȱareȱ reasonable.ȱThisȱ isȱ justȱaȱkindȱofȱextensionȱofȱ commonȱ sense,ȱ whenȱ itȱ isȱ usedȱ properly.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ wayȱ youȱ observeȱ somethingȱ Ȭȱyouȱdrawȱ inferencesȱ fromȱ it;ȱyouȱ thenȱ lookȱagainȱandȱ seeȱ whetherȱyourȱinferencesȱareȱcorrect,ȱcoherent,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

ThisȱisȱtheȱwayȱweȇreȱgoingȱȬȱweȱareȱproceedingȱbyȱinference.ȱButȱasȱweȱ saidȱbefore,ȱthisȱisȱnotȱenoughȱbecauseȱitȱstillȱwonȇtȱgetȱridȱofȱtheȱreflexes.ȱ However,ȱ itȱ isȱ aȱusefulȱ step.ȱWhetherȱ itȱ isȱ necessaryȱ Iȱ canȇtȱ say,ȱ butȱ Iȱ thinkȱthatȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱclearȱupȱsomeȱofȱthisȱconfusion,ȱwhichȱhasȱbeenȱinȱ theȱ previousȱ setȱ ofȱ assumptionsȱ andȱ ideasȱ thatȱ theȱ systemȱ hasȱ aboutȱ itself,ȱwillȱbeȱanȱimportantȱstep.ȱ

O:ȱWouldȱ itȱ beȱ possibleȱ forȱ aȱ personȱ toȱ describeȱ theȱ proprioceptiveȱ processȱinȱthoughtȱasȱitȱactuallyȱfunctions?ȱ

Bohm:ȱPerhapsȱaȱlittleȱlater.ȱAnythingȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱseenȱmightȱbeȱgivenȱ aȱ correctȱ description.ȱ Butȱ ifȱ youȱ havenȇtȱ yetȱ seenȱ it,ȱ thenȱ itȱ becomesȱ fancifulȱandȱitȱstartsȱenteringȱtheȱotherȱwayȱȬȱitȱaffectsȱyourȱperceptionȱasȱ ifȱyouȱhadȱseenȱit.ȱ

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Q:ȱTheȱquestionȱ seemsȱ toȱbe:ȱhowȱ areȱweȱgoingȱ toȱbringȱ forwardȱ thatȱ subtlety,ȱ soȱweȱ canȱ startȱdissipatingȱ thisȱgrossȱ abnormalityȱofȱ thoughtȱ thatȱdoesnȇtȱseeȱitselfȱworkingȱandȱoperating?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhenȱyouȱuseȱtheȱwordȱȇhowȇ,ȱthatȱcanȱbeȱtakenȱtoȱmeanȱȇbyȱwhatȱ systemȱwillȱIȱdoȱit?ȇ,ȱorȱȇhowȱwillȱtheȱsystemȱdoȱit?ȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱwouldȱyouȱpropose,ȱthen?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ forȱ theȱ timeȱ beingȱ youȱ canȱ justȱ considerȱ theȱ question.ȱTheȱattemptȱtoȱregardȱthisȱasȱsolvingȱaȱproblemȱisȱgoingȱtoȱgetȱ inȱtheȱway,ȱisnȇtȱit?ȱThatȱproblemȬsolvingȱattitudeȱisȱallȱrightȱinȱaȱcertainȱ areaȱwhereȱ theȱ systemȱworks.ȱButȱ somehowȱweȱhaveȱ toȱhaveȱ anotherȱ approachȱinȱthisȱarea.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Ifȱ thoughtȱ isȱ fromȱ theȱpastȱ experiencesȱ andȱprojectedȱ toȱ theȱ future,ȱ wouldȱ itȱbeȱthatȱ ifȱweȇreȱ inȱ theȱpresentȱweȱcanȱseeȱthisȱthoughtȱprocessȱ working?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱwellȱbe.ȱButȱthenȱyouȱhaveȱtheȱquestionȱofȱhowȱweȱgetȱ intoȱtheȱpresent.ȱOr,ȱwhyȱarenȇtȱweȱinȱtheȱpresent?ȱObviouslyȱweȱmustȱbeȱ inȱtheȱpresent.ȱWhereȱelseȱcouldȱweȱbe?ȱButȱwhyȱdonȇtȱweȱseeȱthis?ȱWeȱ donȇtȱliveȱinȱtheȱpast.ȱSomeȱpeopleȱareȱsaidȱtoȱliveȱinȱtheȱpast,ȱbutȱthatȇsȱ onlyȱaȱ figureȱofȱspeech;ȱyouȱdonȇtȱaddressȱ lettersȱ toȱ themȱ intoȱ theȱpast.ȱ Theȱquestionȱisȱthen:ȱwhyȱareȱweȱnotȱseeingȱthatȱweȱliveȱinȱtheȱpresent,ȱifȱ itȱisȱinȱfactȱtrue?ȱ

Soȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱisȱtheȱwayȱtheȱsystemȱisȱworking.ȱAndȱthereȱareȱ otherȱ featuresȱofȱ thisȱsystemȱwhichȱneedȱgoingȱ into.ȱ Itȱwillȱrequireȱ thatȱ weȱalsoȱgoȱintoȱtheȱquestionȱofȱtime.ȱTheȱsystemȱalsoȱcontainsȱtheȱwholeȱ systemȱofȱtime,ȱasȱwellȱasȱtheȱsystemȱofȱtheȱselfȱandȱtheȱobserverȱandȱtheȱ observed.ȱ

ButȱIȱthinkȱweȱhaveȱbegunȱtoȱseeȱenoughȱofȱitȱtoȱseeȱthatȱthereȱmightȱbeȱaȱ wayȱoutȱȬȱnotȱtoȱsayȱthereȱis,ȱbutȱthereȱmightȱbe.ȱNow,ȱthisȱrequiresȱthatȱ weȱseeȱthoughtȱasȱoneȱwhole,ȱwithȱtheȱentireȱchemicalȬphysicalȱsystem,ȱ andȱallȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱproprioceptionȱsomethingȱdifferentȱfromȱrepresenting?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱclearly.ȱWhenȱyouȱhaveȱproprioceptionȱofȱtheȱarmȱyouȱdonȇtȱ representȱ theȱarmȱ toȱyourselfȱ inȱanyȱway.ȱYouȱareȱ justȱ simplyȱdirectlyȱ awareȱȬȱyouȇreȱnotȱthinking,ȱrepresentingȱtheȱarmȱandȱhowȱitȱisȱmoving.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱisȱanythingȱperceivingȱanythingȱelse?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo.ȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱweȱhaveȱpartȱofȱourȱ languageȱwhichȱ saysȱ thatȱ ifȱ anythingȱ isȱ perceivedȱ thereȱ mustȱ beȱ somethingȱ elseȱ toȱ perceiveȱit.ȱButȱthatȱmayȱnotȱbeȱso,ȱandȱthatȱmayȱbeȱgettingȱinȱtheȱway.ȱ Whyȱcanȇtȱweȱsayȱthatȱtheȱstreamȱofȱconsciousnessȱcanȱbeȱawareȱofȱitself,ȱ orȱthatȱweȱdonȇtȱneedȱaȱseparateȱperceiverȱtoȱperceive?ȱ

Q:ȱ Wouldnȇtȱ itȱ beȱ hardȱ forȱ thisȱ consciousnessȱ toȱ beȱ onlyȱ physicalȱ Newtonianȱmatter?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇreȱ notȱ sayingȱ itȱ isȱ justȱ physicalȱ Newtonianȱ matter.ȱ Iȱ saidȱ before,ȱ Iȱ think,ȱ thatȱmatterȱmayȱ beȱ unlimitedȱ inȱ itsȱ subtlety.ȱ Inȱ otherȱ words,ȱpartȱofȱtheȱtroubleȱwithȱourȱthoughtȱisȱthatȱitȱsaysȱmatterȱisȱveryȱ limited,ȱthatȱitȱisȱonlyȱthisȱorȱthatȱorȱtheȱotherȱȬȱwhichȱwouldnȇtȱbeȱableȱtoȱ doȱthisȱsortȱofȱthingȱatȱall.ȱHowever,ȱthatȱwouldȱsuggestȱthatȱweȱalreadyȱ knowȱeverythingȱaboutȱmatter.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱitȱisȱcrucialȱtoȱsayȱthatȱweȱ donȇtȱknowȱeverythingȱaboutȱmatter.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱareȱyouȱsuggestingȱthatȱmatterȱcanȱperceive?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWeȱhavenȇtȱcomeȱ toȱ thatȱyet,ȱbutȱmatterȱ isȱcapableȱofȱsomethingȱ farȱmoreȱ subtleȱ thanȱweȱmightȱ think.ȱAtȱ theȱ veryȱ leastȱ itȱ isȱ goingȱ toȱ respondȱ toȱ perceptionȱ inȱ newȱ ways.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ aȱ newȱ perceptionȱ mightȱ beginȱ toȱ changeȱ someȱ ofȱ theȱ synapses,ȱ orȱ theseȱ thingsȱ thatȱ areȱ rigidlyȱstuck.ȱAndȱsoȱon.ȱWeȇllȱcomeȱtoȱthatȱlater.ȱ

Q:ȱ Youȱ saidȱ earlierȱ thatȱ theȱ bodyȱ obviouslyȱ hasȱ proprioceptionȱ andȱ thoughtȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱlackingȱit;ȱandȱsinceȱtheȱbodyȱandȱthoughtȱprocessesȱ areȱonlyȱseparatedȱbyȱaȱdottedȱ line,ȱthought,ȱatȱsomeȱ level,ȱwouldȱhaveȱ toȱhaveȱ theȱmovementȱofȱproprioceptionȱ inȱ itsȱnature.ȱHowever,ȱ someȱ shocksȱorȱnoiseȱorȱsomethingȱelseȱhappeningȱinȱthoughtȱisȱdrowningȱoutȱ sensitivityȱtoȱthisȱmovement.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱSomethingȱisȱhappeningȱinȱthoughtȱwhichȱrejectsȱsensitivityȱ orȱpreventsȱ itȱorȱ resistsȱ it.ȱ Itȇsȱclearȱ thatȱ ifȱyouȱcouldȱseeȱ theȱactivityȱofȱ thought,ȱyouȱmightȱdiscoverȱ thatȱmostȱofȱ theȱ thingsȱweȇreȱcountingȱonȱ actuallyȱareȱjustȱnothing;ȱtheyȱareȱproducedȱbyȱthoughtȱȬȱtheȱselfȱandȱtheȱ society,ȱandȱonȱandȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱweȱ perceiveȱwithȱ proprioception,ȱ areȱweȱ perceivingȱ directlyȱ whatȱis?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱmovement,ȱasȱitȱis,ȱisȱsomehowȱperceivingȱitself.ȱ

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Q:ȱWhenȱweȱ perceiveȱwithoutȱ proprioceptionȱweȱ areȱ perceivingȱ fromȱ memory?ȱ

Bohm:ȱFromȱtheȱreflexesȱofȱmemory,ȱright.ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱthereȱisȱaȱpossibilityȱofȱsomethingȱmoreȱdirect?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱMemoryȱ isȱ notȱ adequateȱ forȱ perceivingȱ theȱmovementȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Thatȱ seemsȱ clear,ȱ becauseȱ memoryȱ willȱ neverȱ perceiveȱ theȱ immediate,ȱdirectȱmovementȱofȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱIȇveȱseenȱaȱlotȱofȱmyȱfriendsȱwhoȱareȱinterestedȱinȱthis.ȱAndȱitȱseemsȱ thatȱtheyȱareȱmoreȱandȱmoreȱmuddledȱandȱtheoreticalȱandȱinhibited,ȱandȱ almostȱ startȱ toȱ loseȱaȱcertainȱamountȱofȱcommonȱ senseȱ inȱdealingȱwithȱ life.ȱTheyȱbecomeȱsoȱcaughtȱupȱtryingȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱthemselvesȱthatȱ itȱ makesȱmeȱcautious.ȱAmȱIȱgoingȱtoȱstartȱgettingȱallȱmuddledȱandȱanxiousȱ andȱstopȱlivingȱbecauseȱIȇmȱsoȱworriedȱaboutȱbeingȱawareȱofȱmyself?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȇmȱnotȱsuggestingȱthatȱyouȱdoȱthat.ȱ

Theȱfirstȱpointȱ isȱ ifȱyouȱ justȱ lookȱatȱyourselfȱwithoutȱunderstandingȱtheȱ questionsȱweȇveȱ beenȱ raisingȱ youȱwillȱ beȱ lookingȱ atȱ somethingȱwhichȱ youȱhaveȱ inventedȱbyȱ thought.ȱAndȱyouȱwillȱgetȱmuddled,ȱ inevitably.ȱ

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Iȇmȱexplainingȱwhyȱyouȱdoȱgetȱmuddledȱwhenȱyouȱjustȱsimplyȱengageȱinȱ introspectionȱȬbecauseȱwhateverȱyouȱseeȱhasȱbeenȱproducedȱbyȱthought,ȱ andȱ isȱpresentedȱasȱperception.ȱTherefore,ȱwhatȱyouȱareȱseeingȱ isȱ justȱaȱ lotȱofȱformsȱandȱcloudsȱandȱwillȬoȇȬtheȬwisps,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȱdonȇtȱstrikeȱmeȱasȱmuddledȱatȱall.ȱButȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱunderstandȱ whatȱitȱtakesȱtoȱdoȱthis.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱPerhapsȱ youȱ haveȱ anȱ assumptionȱ thatȱwhoeverȱ looksȱ atȱ thisȱ isȱ goingȱtoȱgetȱmuddled,ȱwhichȱisȱanȱassumptionȱofȱnecessity.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ understandȱ whatȱ itȱ isȱ thatȱ determinesȱ ifȱ youȱ getȱ muddledȱorȱnot.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱtheȱfactȱthatȱyouȱraisedȱtheȱquestionȱsuggestsȱtoȱmeȱthatȱthereȱ isȱsomeȱassumptionȱunderneathȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱThatȱdoesȱhappenȱoften.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱwayȱweȱ buildȱ theseȱ assumptions.ȱWhenȱ somethingȱ happensȱoften,ȱweȱsayȱthatȱitȱwillȱhappenȱalways,ȱthatȱitȱisȱnecessaryȱȬȱitȱ isȱalwaysȱnecessary.ȱAndȱweȱgetȱ stuck.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱ sortȱofȱ thingȱweȱ slipȱ into.ȱItȱmayȱhappenȱveryȱfrequently,ȱbutȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱalways.ȱOnceȱ again,ȱ weȱ haveȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ weȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ everythingȱ aboutȱ itȱ andȱ thereforeȱweȱcanȇtȱsayȱitȱhappensȱalways.ȱNow,ȱthatȇsȱtheȱfirstȱpoint.ȱ

Thenȱtheȱsecondȱpointȱis,ȱasȱweȇveȱexplained:ȱifȱyouȱdonȇtȱlookȱintoȱtheseȱ questions,ȱsuchȱasȱproprioceptionȱandȱsomeȱofȱtheȱothers,ȱyouȱareȱsurelyȱ goingȱtoȱgetȱmuddled.ȱIȱmean,ȱfromȱtheȱexplanationȱIȇveȱgivenȱitȱbecomesȱ inevitableȱthatȱexactlyȱtheȱexperienceȱyouȱdescribeȱisȱgoingȱtoȱhappen.ȱSoȱ thatȱexplainsȱyourȱexperience.ȱ

Theȱ thirdȱpointȱ is:ȱ itȇsȱnotȱasȱ ifȱeverythingȱ isȱgoingȱ toȱbeȱallȱrightȱ ifȱweȱ donȇtȱ lookȱ intoȱthis.ȱWeȱareȱthenȱgoingȱtoȱcontinueȱtoȱhaveȱthisȱmuddleȱ goingȱonȱinȱtheȱworld,ȱwhichȱwillȱleadȱultimatelyȱtoȱheavenȱknowsȱwhat.ȱ Weȱdonȇtȱevenȱknowȱwhatȱitȱisȱgoingȱtoȱdoȱinȱtheȱrelativelyȱnearȱfuture,ȱ becauseȱ itȱcouldȱ leadȱtoȱsomeȱprettyȱdisastrousȱthings.ȱItȇsȱnotȱasȱ ifȱyouȱ couldȱsay:ȱ ȇWell,ȱleaveȱthisȱaloneȱandȱeverythingȱisȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱallȱright.ȱ Weȇreȱ goingȱ toȱ haveȱ niceȱ commonȱ sense.ȇȱ Becauseȱ commonȱ senseȱ hasȱ brokenȱdownȱinȱtheȱfaceȱofȱthis.ȱItȇsȱnotȱthatȱcommonȱsenseȱisȱwrong,ȱbutȱ youȱcannotȱcarryȱoutȱcommonȱsenseȱwhenȱallȱthisȱisȱgoingȱon.ȱ

ThereforeȱIȱwouldȱsayȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱlookȱatȱitȱveryȱcarefullyȱandȱthinkȱ veryȱcarefully.ȱItȇsȱtrueȱ thatȱthereȱareȱallȱ theȱdangersȱyouȱsay.ȱButȱ thereȱ areȱ alsoȱ dangersȱ inȱ notȱ doingȱ it.ȱ Thenȱwhatȱwillȱweȱ doȱwithȱ that?ȱ Itȱ seemsȱtoȱmeȱthatȱgenerallyȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱreasonableȱtoȱsayȱallȱtheȱseveralȱ alternativesȱareȱdangerous.ȱButȱoneȱofȱthemȱisȱalmostȱsurelyȱgoingȱtoȱfailȱ

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Ȭȱ namely,ȱ whatȱ isȱ goingȱ onȱ now.ȱ Andȱ thisȱ otherȱ mayȱ haveȱ someȱ possibilityȱofȱworking.ȱ

Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱwhatȱ Iȇveȱ saidȱgivesȱ aȱ coherentȱ explanationȱofȱ theȱvariousȱ phenomenaȱwhichȱareȱactuallyȱhappening.ȱThatȇsȱoneȱofȱtheȱthingsȱthatȱitȱ does.ȱAndȱallȱ theȱtimesȱyouȱ findȱ thatȱ itȱ isnȇtȱworkingȱ itȱexplainsȱwhyȱ itȱ isnȇtȱworking,ȱwhichȱmeansȱweȱstillȱhaveȱaȱchallengeȱȬȱweȱhavenȇtȱgotȱtoȱ theȱbottom,ȱtoȱtheȱendȱofȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱdidȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱȇweȱstillȱhaveȱaȱchallengeȇ?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱhaveȱgoneȱsoȱfar,ȱexplainedȱallȱtheseȱthings,ȱbutȱweȱhaveȱnotȱ touchedȱ theȱ reflexesȱ sufficiently.ȱWeȱ haveȱ hadȱ someȱ effectȱ onȱ them,ȱ probably.ȱButȱtheseȱreflexesȱwillȱstillȱoperate.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱexplanationȱisnȇtȱdoingȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱTheȱexplanationȱisȱuseful,ȱitȱisȱnecessary,ȱbutȱsomethingȱmoreȱ isȱneeded.ȱ

Q:ȱ Andȱ youȱ thinkȱ itȇsȱ reasonableȱ toȱ assumeȱ thatȱ theȱ phenomenaȱ areȱ there,ȱandȱtheȱexplanationȱisȱcorrectȱasȱfarȱasȱweȇveȱgone?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱLetȇsȱjustȱsayȱthatȱasȱfarȱasȱweȱcanȱseeȱupȱtoȱnowȱtheȱexplanationȱisȱ correct,ȱthatȱweȱhaveȱgoneȱthroughȱthisȱthingȱbyȱcarefulȱobservationȱandȱ inferenceȱandȱtestingȱandȱitȱallȱseemsȱreasonable.ȱAnybodyȱwhoȱthoughtȱ itȱwasnȇtȱ reasonableȱhadȱaȱchanceȱ toȱsayȱso.ȱAndȱsoȱ farȱweȱcanȇtȱ findȱaȱ holeȱ inȱ it.ȱ Itȱdoesȱ explainȱ allȱ theseȱ cases,ȱ allȱ theseȱdifferentȱdifficultiesȱ thatȱ arise.ȱ Itȱ explainsȱ them.ȱTheyȱ areȱ toȱbeȱ expectedȱwithinȱ thisȱ thing,ȱ andȱweȱareȱnotȱtoȱbeȱsurprisedȱbyȱthem.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱweȱdiscussȱtheȱpresentȱaȱ littleȱmore?ȱThoughtȱ isȱconditionedȱbyȱ theȱ pastȱ andȱ itȱ projectsȱwhatȇsȱ goingȱ toȱ happenȱ inȱ theȱ future;ȱ soȱ Iȇmȱ missingȱ whatȱ isȱ happeningȱ inȱ theȱ presentȱ becauseȱ myȱ mindȱ isȱ conditionedȱ toȱ whatȱ hasȱ happened,ȱ orȱ toȱ whatȱ isȱ goingȱ toȱ happen.ȱ Whereasȱ ifȱ Iȇmȱ inȱ theȱ present,ȱ Iȇmȱ actuallyȱ hearingȱ everythingȱ thatȇsȱ goingȱonȱȬȱtheȱpeopleȱaroundȱme,ȱorȱwhateverȱhappensȱȬȱandȱatȱtheȱsameȱ timeȱIȇmȱ listeningȱtoȱwhatȱyouȱareȱsayingȱandȱIȇmȱalsoȱ listeningȱtoȱhowȱ myȱbodyȱ feels.ȱ Itȇsȱoneȱmovement.ȱThereȱ isȱnoȱseparation;ȱ Iȇmȱoneȱwithȱ you.ȱAndȱbeingȱinȱthatȱstateȱofȱpresenceȱIȱcanȱwatchȱmyȱthoughts.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAndȱwhatȱhappensȱthen?ȱ

Q:ȱByȱwatchingȱmyȱ thoughtsȱ Iȱ releaseȱ theirȱholdȱonȱme.ȱ Itȇsȱasȱ thoughȱ theyȱareȱmovingȱandȱIȇmȱwatchingȱthem,ȱIȇmȱnotȱcaughtȱupȱinȱthem.ȱByȱ watchingȱthemȱIȇmȱnotȱthem,ȱsoȱIȱcanȱquestionȱwhatȱtheyȱareȱtellingȱme.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱ ifȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇIȇmȱwatchingȇ,ȱ thenȱ somebodyȱ couldȱask:ȱ ȇWhoȇsȱ watching?ȱIsȱthereȱaȱseparation?ȇȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ donȇtȱ thinkȱweȱ canȱ sayȱ ȇIȱ amȱwatchingȇ.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ justȱwatching,ȱ becauseȱ ȇIȇȱ andȱ thoughtȱ areȱ together,ȱ notȱ separated.ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ deceptionȱtoȱsayȱthatȱIȱamȱwatching.ȱ

Bohm:ȱPerhapsȱweȇllȱtryȱtoȱgoȱintoȱthatȱfurtherȱtomorrow.ȱButȱIȱthinkȱthatȱ toȱchangeȱ thisȱweȱneedȱaȱkindȱofȱ insightȱ thatȱwillȱchangeȱ thisȱphysicalȱ situation,ȱthisȱphysicalȬchemicalȱsituation.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ thereȱvalueȱ inȱ theȱobjectiveȱofȱ tryingȱ toȱdescribeȱ suchȱanȱ insight,ȱ ratherȱthanȱsomehowȱchallengingȱourselvesȱtoȱhaveȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhenȱyouȱhaveȱitȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱsomethingȱaboutȱit.ȱTheȱquestionȱ isȱtoȱsayȱsomethingȱthatȱwillȱactuallyȱcommunicateȱwhatȱitȱis.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱalso,ȱitȱseemsȱweȱmayȱsometimesȱbeȱableȱtoȱwatchȱourȱthoughtsȱ andȱtalkȱaboutȱit.ȱButȱwhenȱtheȱemotionsȱkickȱinȱthenȱweȱloseȱthatȱability;ȱ somethingȱelseȱcomesȱin.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWeȱhaveȱ toȱhaveȱ thisȱ thingȱ soȱpowerfulȱ andȱ firmȱ thatȱ itȱworksȱ evenȱwhenȱ theȱemotionsȱdoȱ comeȱ in.ȱAndȱ theȱabilityȱ toȱwatchȱwhatȱ isȱ happeningȱinȱthoughtȱmayȱbeȱmovingȱtoȱgiveȱriseȱtoȱperception.ȱ

Weȱcanȱsayȱ thatȱ thereȱhasȱ toȱbeȱaȱrealȱchangeȱ toȱmakeȱ thisȱ thingȱwork.ȱ Thereȱhasȱtoȱbeȱaȱchangeȱinȱthisȱconditioning,ȱinȱthisȱmaterialȱbaseȱofȱtheȱ conditioning,ȱ soȱ thatȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱholdȱ soȱ strongly.ȱAndȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱ thatȱ requiresȱanȱinsight.ȱ

Theȱtimeȱisȱgettingȱlateȱnow,ȱsoȱweȱmightȱwantȱtoȱdiscussȱthisȱtomorrowȬȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱyouȱgiveȱusȱsomethingȱtoȱdoȱasȱaȱlittleȱhomeworkȱforȱtonight?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ theȱbestȱ thingȱwouldȱbeȱ toȱdoȱwhatȱweȱwereȱdiscussingȱ thisȱmorning.ȱThatȱis,ȱtoȱtryȱtoȱuseȱtheȱwordsȱwhichȱbringȱupȱtheȱprocessȱ Ȭȱ notȱ onlyȱwithȱ angerȱ orȱ fearȱ orȱ jealousyȱ orȱ evenȱ pleasure,ȱ butȱwithȱ whateverȱmayȱbeȱthere.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱaboutȱresistance?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱyouȱhaveȱresistance,ȱthenȱtheȱpointȱisȱtoȱtryȱtoȱfindȱtheȱthoughtȱ andȱuseȱtheȱwordȱthatȱisȱbehindȱtheȱresistance.ȱYouȱfindȱtheȱwordsȱwhichȱ areȱbehindȱ it.ȱ Ifȱyouȱwantȱ toȱdoȱanȱexerciseȱ thenȱ thatȱwouldȱbeȱaȱgoodȱ oneȱtoȱtry.ȱ

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Q:ȱWouldȱ youȱ recommendȱ discussingȱ itȱwithȱ somebodyȱ orȱwritingȱ itȱ down?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱcouldȱwriteȱ itȱdownȱ forȱyourselfȱasȱaȱdiary.ȱOrȱ ifȱyouȱwantȱ youȱcouldȱdiscussȱwithȱsomebody.ȱWhateverȱwayȱyouȱ findȱconvenient.

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SUNDAYȱMORNINGȱ ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇveȱdiscussedȱaȱnumberȱofȱthingsȱandȱthereȱareȱstillȱquiteȱaȱfewȱ toȱgoȱinto.ȱ

Firstȱ Iȱ thoughtȱ Iȇdȱ sayȱaȱ littleȱmoreȱaboutȱproprioception.ȱ Iȱunderstandȱ someȱpeopleȱstillȱfeelȱitȇsȱnotȱclear.ȱTheȱbasicȱthingȱisȱthatȱyouȱareȱdirectlyȱ awareȱofȱyourȱbody,ȱofȱhowȱyourȱbodyȱisȱmoving;ȱwhereasȱifȱyouȱwatchȱ aȱtreeȱmoving,ȱforȱinstance,ȱyouȱareȱawareȱthatȱthatȇsȱquiteȱindependentȱ ofȱ you.ȱ Proprioceptionȱ makesȱ youȱ awareȱ ofȱ yourȱ wholeȱ bodyȱ asȱ belongingȱtoȱyou,ȱasȱpartȱofȱyou.ȱYouȇreȱawareȱofȱwhatȱisȱhappeningȱandȱ howȱyourȱintentionsȱaffectȱit,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱAndȱweȱcanȱalwaysȱgetȱbetterȱ atȱproprioception.ȱPeopleȱwhoȱ areȱ skilled,ȱ suchȱ asȱ athletesȱ orȱdancers,ȱ mustȱhaveȱaȱveryȱgoodȱproprioceptionȱofȱexactlyȱhowȱtheyȱareȱmoving.ȱ Theyȱdonȇtȱhaveȱ toȱ stopȱ toȱ think.ȱTheyȱmayȱhaveȱ anȱ intentionȱ inȱ theirȱ thoughtȱasȱtoȱwhatȱtheyȱwantȱtoȱdo;ȱbutȱwhileȱtheyȱareȱactuallyȱdoingȱitȱ theyȱdonȇtȱstopȱtoȱanalyseȱexactlyȱhowȱitȇsȱgoingȱandȱcompareȱthatȱwithȱ whatȱtheyȱintended.ȱ

Thatȇsȱ theȱ kindȱ ofȱ thingȱ thatȱ isȱ involvedȱ inȱ proprioception.ȱ Butȱ thatȱ awarenessȱcanȱbreakȱdown.ȱIȱreadȱaboutȱsomebodyȱwhoȱhadȱsomethingȱ happenȱtoȱhim,ȱandȱthenȱafterwardsȱheȱfeltȱthatȱtheȱrightȱsideȱofȱhisȱbodyȱ didnȇtȱbelongȱtoȱhimȱȬheȱwasȱnoȱlongerȱawareȱofȱitȱasȱhisȱown.ȱTheȱpointȱ isȱthatȱweȱareȱimmediatelyȱawareȱofȱtheȱdifferenceȱbetweenȱaȱmovementȱ whichȱ originatesȱ byȱ itselfȱ andȱ oneȱ whichȱ weȱ haveȱ thoughtȱ about,ȱ withoutȱactuallyȱhavingȱtoȱthinkȱȇthisȱisȱwhatȱIȇmȱawareȱofȇ.ȱ

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ȱȱ

Iȇmȱsuggestingȱthatȱthisȱproprioceptionȱshouldȱbeȱextendedȱintoȱthought,ȱ soȱthatȱweȱareȱawareȱofȱthoughtȱasȱitȱparticipates.ȱThoughtȇsȱparticipationȱ producesȱallȱsortsȱofȱ things.ȱAndȱ itȱaffectsȱperceptionȱ Ȭȱwhatȱyouȱ thinkȱ affectsȱwhatȱyouȱperceiveȱoutsideȱandȱhowȱyouȱfeelȱinside.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱwonderȱaboutȱthatȱexampleȱyouȱgaveȱyesterdayȱofȱtheȱwomanȱwhoȱ hadȱlostȱallȱproprioceptionȱandȱhadȱtoȱuseȱherȱeyesȱtoȱretrainȱherself.ȱAsȱ weȇreȱsittingȱhere,ȱallȱofȱusȱareȱusingȱproprioceptionȱorȱweȱwouldnȇtȱbeȱ ableȱtoȱstayȱinȱourȱchairs.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱthatȇsȱaȱveryȱgoodȱexample.ȱSuddenlyȱsheȱwokeȱupȱwithoutȱ proprioceptionȱ andȱ sheȱ couldnȇtȱmoveȱherȱbodyȱ inȱ anyȱ controllableȱorȱ orderlyȱ way.ȱ Sheȱ couldnȇtȱ sitȱ upȱ orȱ doȱ anything.ȱ Sheȱ hadȱ toȱ watchȱ everythingȱtoȱseeȱwhatȱwasȱhappening,ȱandȱmanagedȱsomehowȱtoȱlearnȱ toȱgetȱalongȱthatȱway.ȱ

Itȇsȱveryȱhardȱtoȱexplain,ȱbutȱasȱyouȇreȱsittingȱinȱtheȱchairȱyouȱareȱawareȱ ofȱyourȱbody.ȱYouȱmayȱnotȱnoticeȱ it,ȱbutȱ thereȱ isȱanȱawarenessȱofȱyourȱ bodyȱtouchingȱtheȱchairȱandȱofȱtheȱvariousȱlittleȱmovementsȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱ makeȱtoȱcorrectȱforȱtheȱfactȱthatȱyouȱareȱstartingȱtoȱfall,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱThisȱisȱ allȱpartȱofȱproprioception.ȱYouȇreȱnotȱreallyȱthinkingȱaboutȱitȱorȱmakingȱ decisionsȱaboutȱitȱorȱmakingȱchoicesȱorȱanythingȱlikeȱthat.ȱRather,ȱitȇsȱjustȱ working.ȱ

Now,ȱweȱareȱaskingȱwhetherȱproprioceptionȱcouldȱworkȱsimilarlyȱwithȱ thoughtȱȬȱwhereȱyouȱwouldȱbecomeȱdirectlyȱawareȱthatȱyourȱthoughtȱisȱ affectingȱ yourȱ perceptions.ȱ Weȱ haveȱ discussedȱ howȱ thoughtȱ affectsȱ

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perceptions.ȱYouȱ seeȱorȱ feelȱ somethingȱproducedȱbyȱ thought,ȱbutȱ thenȱ theȱnextȱthoughtȱcomesȱalongȱandȱsaysȱȇIȇmȱonlyȱtellingȱyouȱtheȱwayȱitȱisȇ.ȱ Thoughtȱmakesȱ thatȱclaim,ȱwhileȱ itȱ isȱactuallyȱaffectingȱ theȱwayȱ thingsȱ are.ȱThatȱmistakeȱisȱcrucial.ȱItȇsȱtheȱsameȱasȱnotȱhavingȱproprioceptionȱinȱ theȱbody.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱusedȱtoȱthinkȱthatȱproprioceptionȱofȱthoughtȱisȱlinearȱandȱthatȱIȱhadȱ toȱfollowȱmyȱtrainȱofȱthought,ȱwhichȱisȱsortȱofȱaȱcontradiction.ȱAndȱsoȱIȱ realizedȱthatȱIȱhadȱtoȱbeȱawareȱofȱmyȱthoughtȱthroughȱsensation.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱthoughtȱgivesȱriseȱtoȱsensation,ȱyes.ȱEvenȱtheȱimpulseȱtoȱthinkȱ isȱaȱsensation.ȱAndȱthenȱyourȱthoughtȱgivesȱriseȱtoȱfurtherȱsensationsȱandȱ images.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱwhileȱIȇmȱtalkingȱtoȱyouȱIȱbecomeȱsoȱfascinatedȱwithȱmyȱtalkingȱthatȱ Iȱ loseȱ theȱ experienceȱ ofȱ theȱ body,ȱ ofȱ sensation,ȱ thenȱ thatȱ wouldȱ beȱ thoughtȱ toȱ beȱ functioningȱwithoutȱwhatȱ youȇreȱ callingȱ proprioception.ȱ Butȱ ifȱ Iȱ comeȱ backȱ intoȱmyȱ bodyȱ andȱ Iȱ talkȱ toȱ you,ȱ thenȱ thereȇsȱ someȱ senseȱ ofȱ theseȱ handsȱmoving,ȱ theȱ feelȱ ofȱ thisȱ chair,ȱ theȱ qualityȱ ofȱ theȱ voice.ȱThenȱitȇsȱaȱdifferentȱprocess.ȱIsȱthatȱwhatȱyouȇreȱsuggesting?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱandȱallȱ theȱdifferentȱsensationsȱwhichȱcomeȱ fromȱwhatȱyouȱ areȱsaying.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Areȱ weȱ speakingȱ ofȱ aȱ unifiedȱ fieldȱ ofȱ awareness,ȱ whichȱ includesȱ thoughtȱbutȱdoesnȇtȱexcludeȱtheȱphysical?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱphysical.ȱYesterdayȱ Iȱmadeȱ theȱ pointȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ aȱmoreȱ subtleȱ formȱ ofȱ theȱ physical.ȱ Perhapsȱweȱshouldȱdiscussȱthatȱsomeȱmore.ȱ

Thoughtȱisȱpartȱofȱaȱmaterialȱprocess.ȱItȱgoesȱonȱinȱtheȱbrain,ȱtheȱnervousȱ system,ȱ andȱ reallyȱ theȱwholeȱbodyȱ andȱ everything;ȱ itȇsȱ allȱoneȱ system.ȱ Thoughtȱ canȱ beȱ conveyedȱ byȱmaterialȱ processesȱ suchȱ asȱ radioȱwaves,ȱ television,ȱwritingȱ Ȭallȱ kindsȱ ofȱways.ȱ Inȱ talking,ȱ soundȱ goesȱ outȱ andȱ conveysȱ thought.ȱ Withinȱ theȱ bodyȱ thoughtȱ isȱ conveyedȱ byȱ nervousȱ signals;ȱthereȱisȱaȱcodeȱofȱsomeȱsort,ȱwhichȱweȱdonȇtȱknowȱtooȱwell.ȱ

Weȇreȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱaȱmaterialȱprocess;ȱitȱhasȱreflexesȱthatȱjustȱgoȱ onȱbyȱ themselves.ȱAndȱ ifȱyouȱhaveȱanȱ insightȱorȱperceptionȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ true,ȱthenȱthatȱwillȱactuallyȱaffectȱyou.ȱAnȱinsightȱorȱaȱperceptionȱofȱtruthȱ mayȱdeeplyȱaffectȱ theȱmaterialȱprocess,ȱwhichȱ includesȱallȱ theȱ reflexes.ȱ Butȱifȱweȱmerelyȱhaveȱanȱintellectualȱorȱinferentialȱknowledgeȱofȱwhatȱisȱ goingȱon,ȱthenȱitȱdoesnȇtȱtouchȱthisȱprocessȱdeeply.ȱ

Q:ȱ Whenȱ whatȱ youȇreȱ callingȱ anȱ insightȱ takesȱ place,ȱ inȱ effectȱ aȱ reorganizationȱhasȱtakenȱplace.ȱAndȱthisȱisnȇtȱsomethingȱIȱhaveȱorȱknowȱ aboutȱinȱmyȱthinking,ȱbutȱsimplyȱthatȱtheȱfunctioningȱisȱthenȱsomewhatȱ different.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ thereȱhasȱbeenȱaȱchange.ȱLetȇsȱ supposeȱweȱuseȱ synapsesȱ inȱ theȱbrainȱasȱaȱkindȱofȱrepresentation,ȱalthoughȱthereȱ isȱmuchȱmoreȱtoȱ itȱ thanȱthat.ȱYouȱhaveȱallȱtheȱnervesȱwhichȱconnectȱthroughȱsynapses.ȱAndȱ theyȱ canȱmakeȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ synapsesȱ thatȱ produceȱ aȱ certainȱ reflexȱwhichȱ doesnȇtȱmakeȱ sense,ȱbutȱ justȱkeepsȱgoingȱ anyway.ȱ Justȱ asȱ thoughtȱ actsȱ andȱ participates,ȱ soȱ everyȱ perceptionȱ actsȱ andȱ participates.ȱ Nowȱ byȱ meansȱofȱthisȱperceptionȱofȱtruthȱorȱinsight,ȱthatȱperceptionȱacts.ȱAndȱitȱ actsȱ directlyȱ inȱ theȱ systemȱ andȱ somehowȱmakesȱ aȱ changeȱ soȱ thatȱ theȱ reflexȱbecomesȱinoperative.ȱPerhapsȱitȱstartsȱtoȱdissolveȱawayȱaȱbit.ȱYouȱ mustnȇtȱdissolveȱallȱtheȱsynapseȱconnectionsȱawayȱorȱelseȱyouȱwouldnȇtȱ beȱableȱtoȱdoȱanything.ȱItȱhasȱtoȱbeȱdoneȱintelligently.ȱ

Haveȱyouȱeverȱseenȱsomethingȱwhichȱseemedȱveryȱattractiveȱtoȱyou,ȱandȱ suddenlyȱyouȱhadȱaȱperceptionȱofȱwhatȱ itȱ reallyȱwas,ȱandȱyouȱ said:ȱ ȇItȱ doesnȇtȱ attractȱmeȱ anymoreȱ atȱ all.ȱ Iȇmȱ deadȱ toȱ it.ȇȱDoȱ youȱ seeȱwhatȱ Iȱ mean?ȱ Thereȱ wasȱ aȱ chemicalȱ senseȱ insideȱ ofȱ desire,ȱ ofȱ wantingȱ something;ȱ andȱ suddenlyȱ itȱ stops.ȱ Theȱ chemistryȱ isȱ affectedȱ byȱ theȱ perception.ȱ

Weȱ discussedȱ yesterdayȱ thatȱmatterȱmayȱ beȱ infinitelyȱ subtle.ȱ Scienceȱ doesnȇtȱknowȱallȱaboutȱit,ȱandȱprobablyȱneverȱwill.ȱButȱmatterȱisȱnotȱjustȱ mechanical.ȱTherefore,ȱ itȱcouldȱrespondȱtoȱthatȱperceptionȱ inȱveryȱdeepȱ andȱsubtleȱwaysȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱbeyondȱwhatȱscienceȱcouldȱevenȱtrace.ȱSoȱ thereȱ canȱbeȱaȱ change.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱnotion:ȱ thatȱ theȱ insightȱorȱperceptionȱ willȱ affectȱ theȱ wholeȱ thing.ȱ Itȱ notȱ onlyȱ affectsȱ theȱ inferentialȱ understanding,ȱbutȱitȱalsoȱaffectsȱtheȱchemicalȱlevelȱandȱeverything.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱifȱweȱseeȱitȱallȱasȱaȱunifiedȱprocess?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱButȱweȱwonȇtȱevenȱ ȇseeȇȱit,ȱbecauseȱwhenȱitȱworksȱitȇsȱtooȱfastȱforȱ youȱtoȱknowȱwhatȇsȱhappenedȱȬȱyouȱgetȱitȱinȱaȱflash.ȱLaterȱonȱyouȱputȱitȱ inȱ words.ȱ Now,ȱ thisȱ questionȱ isȱ crucial:ȱ whenȱ anȱ insightȱ isȱ putȱ intoȱ words,ȱwhatȱisȱitȱthatȱputsȱitȱintoȱwords?ȱIsȱitȱthoughtȱorȱisȱitȱtheȱinsight?ȱ Iȱwantȱtoȱsuggestȱthatȱtheȱinsightȱitselfȱwillȱbeȱanȱinsightȱintoȱtheȱwordsȱ whichȱ expressȱ itȱproperly.ȱ Itȇsȱalmostȱasȱ thoughȱ theȱwordsȱareȱ comingȱ outȱfromȱaȱloudspeaker,ȱratherȱthanȱbyȱsomebodyȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱthemȱout.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱareȱbodilyȱgesturesȱinȱtheȱcontextȱofȱwhatȱweȱareȱdiscussing?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ expression,ȱ itȇsȱ notȱ theȱ resultȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Whateverȱ isȱgoingȱonȱexpressesȱ itselfȱ throughȱwords,ȱ throughȱgesturesȱ andȱinȱvariousȱotherȱways.ȱTheȱexpression,ȱwhetherȱverbalȱorȱnot,ȱisȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱperceptionȱorȱ theȱ insight;ȱ itȱ isȱ theȱactionȱofȱ theȱ insight.ȱAndȱ theȱ expressionȱ isȱ important,ȱ becauseȱ theȱ perceptionȱwillȱ notȱ onlyȱ changeȱ someȱ ofȱ theȱ Ȭȱ callȱ itȱ synapsesȱ orȱwhateverȱ Ȭȱ butȱ itȱwillȱ alsoȱ conveyȱ toȱ thoughtȱtheȱessentialȱcontentȱofȱtheȱinsight.ȱSoȱthoughtȱcanȱthenȱproceedȱ onȱaȱdifferentȱbasis,ȱinȱaȱnewȱdirection.ȱTherefore,ȱitȇsȱimportantȱthatȱitȱbeȱ expressedȱ inȱwords.ȱButȱ thoseȱwordsȱhaveȱ toȱcomeȱ fromȱ theȱ insight.ȱ If,ȱ onȱ theȱotherȱhand,ȱ theȱwordsȱ areȱ justȱ fromȱmemory,ȱ theyȱmayȱnotȱbeȱ expressingȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ sayingȱ thatȱ whenȱ youȱ haveȱ anȱ insightȱ intoȱ thisȱ creativeȱ process,ȱ itȇsȱ inȱaȱmodeȱ thatȱ isȱnotȱ languageȱ Ȭȱandȱ thatȱ isȱaȱcreativeȱact?ȱ

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Andȱ itȇsȱ anotherȱ creativeȱ actȱ ofȱ theȱ brainȱ toȱ transformȱ thatȱ intoȱ aȱ languageȱofȱwordsȱwhichȱweȱcanȱcommunicate?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Butȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ allȱ oneȱ act.ȱ Theȱ creativeȱ actȱ simultaneouslyȱ altersȱ someȱ ofȱ theȱ reflexesȱ andȱ alsoȱ producesȱ theȱ expression,ȱinȱwordsȱorȱsomeȱotherȱmeans,ȱwhichȱwillȱenableȱthoughtȱtoȱ takeȱitȱupȱandȱmoveȱinȱaȱdifferentȱwayȱfromȱthereȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ wonderȱ ifȱ aȱ simpleȱ analogyȱ wouldȱ beȱ theȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ memorizingȱ aȱ bunchȱ ofȱ multiplicationȱ tablesȱ andȱ understandingȱ aȱ formula.ȱ Onceȱ thereȱ isȱ understandingȱ ofȱ theȱ relationship,ȱ thenȱ theȱ overheadȱofȱ rememberingȱ allȱ theȱotherȱdataȱ isȱgoneȱ andȱyouȱ canȱnowȱ relateȱtoȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱWhenȱyouȱunderstandȱsomething,ȱinȱsomeȱwayȱitȱtouchesȱatȱ aȱdeeperȱlevelȱandȱthenȱitȱwillȱcomeȱoutȱinȱwordsȱagain.ȱ

Theȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱweȱ haveȱ theȱ possibilityȱ ofȱ insight.ȱ Supposeȱweȱ askȱ ourselves:ȱȇDoȱweȱhaveȱitȱasȱanȱinsightȱthatȱthoughtȱisȱaȱmaterialȱprocess,ȱ orȱthatȱthoughtȱalwaysȱparticipatesȱinȱperception?ȇȱIfȱweȱhaveȱthatȱinsightȱ thenȱthatȱmayȱremoveȱsomeȱofȱtheȱbarriersȱtoȱoperatingȱthatȱway.ȱ

Butȱ ourȱwholeȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ isȱ againstȱ that.ȱ Itȱ saysȱ ȇthoughtȱ isȱ notȱ aȱ materialȱprocessȇ.ȱOurȱ firstȱ reflexȱ is:ȱThoughtȱ isȱ farȱ beyondȱmatter,ȱ orȱ separatedȱ fromȱ matterȱ somehow.ȱ Itȱ hasȱ someȱ spiritualȱ truthȱ orȱ significance.ȇȱThisȱnotionȱhasȱbeenȱconditionedȱintoȱusȱasȱaȱreflex.ȱ

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Now,ȱhowever,ȱweȇreȱsayingȱ thoughtȱ isȱaȱmaterialȱprocessȱandȱ thoughtȱ participatesȱ Ȭȱwhichȱmeansȱ theȱnotionȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱonlyȱ tellingȱyouȱ whatȱthingsȱareȱisȱnotȱreallyȱaȱseriousȱoption.ȱIfȱthatȱcomesȱasȱanȱinsight,ȱ orȱ ifȱyouȱgetȱ theȱ insightȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱnotȱproprioceptiveȱbutȱrequiresȱ proprioception,ȱthenȱthatȱ isȱgoingȱtoȱbeginȱtoȱtouchȱtheȱsynapsesȱwhichȱ holdȱ thoseȱ reflexes.ȱ Theȱ wordsȱ willȱ thenȱ alsoȱ produceȱ aȱ changeȱ inȱ thought,ȱ andȱ thoughtȱwillȱ beginȱ toȱ stopȱ gettingȱ inȱ theȱwayȱ ofȱ seeingȱ theseȱthings.ȱ

Ourȱ conditioningȱ containsȱ variousȱ barriersȱ toȱ proprioception,ȱ oneȱ ofȱ whichȱ isȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ implicitlyȱ saysȱ proprioceptionȱ isȱ notȱ necessary.ȱ Andȱ ifȱ thoughtȱ wereȱ onlyȱ tellingȱ youȱ theȱ wayȱ thingsȱ are,ȱ thenȱ proprioceptionȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱnecessaryȱbecauseȱthereȱwouldȱbeȱnothingȱ toȱ perceive.ȱ Therefore,ȱ theȱ notionȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ onlyȱ tellingȱ youȱ theȱ wayȱthingsȱareȱisȱnotȱaȱseriousȱoption;ȱitȇsȱnotȱaȱseriousȱthingȱtoȱconsider.ȱ Isȱ thatȱ clear?ȱWhenȱ youȱ haveȱ thatȱ insightȱ youȱ areȱ noȱ longerȱ takingȱ seriouslyȱ thoseȱ thingsȱwhichȱ previouslyȱ loomedȱ allȬimportant.ȱ Youȇreȱ deadȱtoȱthem,ȱwhereasȱpreviouslyȱtheyȱmovedȱyouȱveryȱmuchȱandȱhadȱ tremendousȱmeaning.ȱNowȱyouȱsay:ȱȇTheyȱhaveȱnoȱmeaning.ȱTheyȇreȱjustȱ mechanicalȱstuff.ȇȱ

Q:ȱ Apparentlyȱ thereȱ areȱ degreesȱ ofȱ proprioception.ȱ Isȱ thisȱ relatedȱ toȱ awarenessȱ asȱwellȱ asȱ toȱ nonȬawarenessȱ orȱ nonȬmindfulness?ȱAndȱ areȱ thereȱ otherȱ peopleȱ besidesȱKrishnamurtiȱwhoȱmayȱ haveȱ hadȱ aȱ higherȱ levelȱofȱproprioceptionȱorȱmindfulnessȱofȱwhatȱisȱtakingȱplace?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȱ mayȱ allȱ be,ȱ butȱ weȇreȱ liableȱ toȱ getȱ intoȱ theȱ domainȱ ofȱ speculationsȱwhichȱareȱcarriedȱ intoȱtheȱsystem.ȱWeȱwouldȱputȱ thatȱ intoȱ

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ourȱ systemȱ ofȱ thoughtsȱ andȱ reflexes,ȱ andȱ itȱwouldȱ becomeȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ knowledgeȱwhichȱwouldȱgetȱinȱtheȱway.ȱSoȱthereȇsȱaȱdangerȱinȱthisȱkindȱ ofȱ imaginativeȱ speculation.ȱ Theȱ importantȱ pointȱ isȱ actuallyȱ toȱ seeȱ forȱ yourselfȱtheȱproprioceptionȱofȱthought,ȱtoȱseeȱitȱinȱaction.ȱ

Iȱwouldȱ likeȱtoȱdiscussȱtheȱ imaginationȱsoȱthatȱweȱcouldȱunderstandȱ itsȱ roleȱhere,ȱbecauseȱitȱisȱveryȱcloselyȱrelatedȱtoȱthisȱquestion.ȱȇImaginationȇȱ meansȱ ȇmakingȱ anȱ imageȇ,ȱ ȇseeingȱ theȱ imageȱ ofȱ somethingȱ thatȱ isȱ notȱ thereȇ;ȱ inȱotherȱwords,ȱ fantasy,ȱ fancy,ȱandȱ soȱon.ȱButȱ reallyȱ thereȱ isȱnoȱ fundamentalȱ distinctionȱ betweenȱ theȱ processesȱ ofȱ imaginationȱ andȱ perception.ȱWeȇveȱ saidȱ thatȱ theȱentireȱ consciousnessȱ isȱactuallyȱ createdȱ byȱaȱprocessȱwhichȱisȱbeingȱguidedȱbyȱinformationȱfromȱtheȱsenses.ȱ

Thatȱprocessȱgivesȱ riseȱ toȱourȱperception,ȱandȱ thatȱprocessȱ isȱaȱkindȱofȱ imagination.ȱYouȱcouldȱcallȱthatȱprimaryȱimagination.ȱ

Also,ȱweȱcanȱ startȱ toȱ imagineȱ thingsȱwhichȱareȱnotȱ there,ȱ thingsȱwhichȱ areȱnotȱ indicatedȱbyȱperception.ȱAndȱ thatȱmayȱbeȱcreativeȱ imagination.ȱ Weȱ canȱ imagineȱ formsȱofȱ thingsȱ thatȱareȱunknown,ȱwhichȱ canȱ thenȱbeȱ broughtȱintoȱexistence.ȱ

Andȱweȱhaveȱanotherȱkindȱofȱ imagination,ȱwhichȱcomesȱ fromȱ theȱpast,ȱ fromȱ theȱ reflexesȱ Ȭȱ theȱ reflexiveȱ imagination,ȱ whichȱ couldȱ beȱ calledȱ ȇfancyȇȱorȱ ȇfantasyȇ.ȱThisȱagainȱcouldȱbeȱuseful,ȱbecauseȱweȱcanȱ imagineȱ thingsȱ andȱ imagineȱ ourselvesȱ goingȱ inȱ certainȱwaysȱ orȱ doingȱ certainȱ things,ȱ andȱ solveȱproblemsȱ thatȱway.ȱButȱ itȱ canȱbeȱdangerousȱbecauseȱ thisȱfantasyȱmayȱslipȱoverȱintoȱapparentȱperception;ȱitȱcanȱparticipateȱinȱ perceptionȱ theȱ wayȱ weȱ saidȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ does.ȱWhenȱ youȇreȱ lostȱ inȱ fantasy,ȱyouȱseemȱtoȱbeȱalmostȱperceivingȱtheȱthingȱimagined.ȱAndȱyouȱ areȱ notȱ onlyȱ apparentlyȱ perceivingȱ whatȱ youȱ fantasize,ȱ youȱ areȱ apparentlyȱexperiencingȱandȱperceivingȱtheȱselfȱthatȱisȱdoingȱit.ȱInȱotherȱ

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words,ȱ itȇsȱ allȱ builtȱ outȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Youȱ canȱ beȱ anȱ entirelyȱ differentȱ personȱinȱfantasyȱfromȱwhatȱyouȱwouldȱbeȱoutside,ȱsuchȱasȱisȱportrayedȱ inȱtheȱbook,ȱȇTheȱSecretȱLifeȱofȱWalterȱMittyȇ.ȱ

Therefore,ȱinȱfantasyȱyouȱcanȱcreateȱyourselfȱandȱcreateȱaȱworld.ȱButȱthenȱ fantasyȱmayȱstartȱtoȱmergeȱwithȱyourȱperceptionȱofȱreality.ȱSomeȱpeopleȱ haveȱ suggestedȱ thatȱwhenȱ theȱ infantȇsȱmemoryȱ firstȱ startsȱ toȱworkȱ itȇsȱ mostlyȱ fantasy.ȱ Accordingȱ toȱ theȱ childȱ psychologistȱ Piaget,ȱ youngȱ childrenȱdoȱhaveȱaȱlotȱofȱfantasyȱinȱthought.ȱTheyȱmayȱimagineȱthatȱtheyȱ areȱmagicallyȱaffectingȱthings.ȱAndȱthenȱtheyȱhaveȱtoȱlearnȱtoȱdistinguishȱ certainȱ ȇfantasiesȇȱwhichȱ areȱ toȱbeȱ calledȱ ȇrealityȇ,ȱnamelyȱ theȱonesȱ thatȱ passȱ theȱ testsȱ forȱ reality:ȱ thoseȱwhichȱ standȱup,ȱwhichȱeverybodyȱ sees,ȱ whichȱ resistȱ beingȱ pushed,ȱwhichȱ areȱ notȱ affectedȱ byȱ howȱ youȱ thinkȱ aboutȱthem,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱ

Soȱtheȱrealityȱwhichȱyouȱperceiveȱisȱaffectedȱbyȱyourȱthought.ȱThoughtȱisȱ workingȱasȱaȱkindȱofȱimaginationȱbeingȱinfusedȱintoȱyourȱperception.ȱItȱ becomesȱpartȱofȱwhatȱyouȱsee.ȱAndȱthatȱimaginationȱisȱnecessary.ȱButȱifȱ itȱgetsȱheldȱtooȱstronglyȱandȱresistsȱevidenceȱofȱincoherence,ȱthenȱitȱleadsȱ toȱallȱtheȱproblemsȱweȇreȱtalkingȱabout.ȱ

Thatȇsȱtheȱgeneralȱpicture.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱthereforeȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱwatchȱ theȱ imaginationȱ carefully.ȱ Itȱ canȱ beȱ creativeȱ andȱ itȱ canȱ beȱ alsoȱ veryȱ destructive,ȱbecauseȱtheȱfantasyȱrealmȱcanȱmergeȱwithȱrealityȱandȱcreateȱ aȱ resistanceȱ toȱseeingȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ fantasy.ȱ Itȱwillȱcreateȱ reflexesȱ thatȱ resistȱ seeingȱit,ȱbecauseȱyouȱcreateȱsuchȱbeautifulȱfantasiesȱthatȱyouȱdonȇtȱwantȱ toȱgiveȱthemȱup.ȱTheyȱfeelȱveryȱgood,ȱtheȱendorphinsȱareȱproducedȱandȱ everythingȱelse.ȱHence,ȱthereȱisȱaȱmovementȱȬȱaȱreflexȱȬȱtoȱholdȱthemȱandȱ toȱresistȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱsayȱ thatȱ theyȱareȱnotȱright,ȱorȱ theyȱareȱnotȱ theȱ wayȱitȱis.ȱThusȱyouȱgetȱillusionȱandȱallȱthat.ȱ

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Iȱthinkȱthatȱthisȱnotionȱofȱfantasyȱwillȱhelpȱyouȱtoȱunderstandȱbetterȱhowȱ thoughtȱcanȱenterȱ intoȱperception.ȱAndȱevenȱwhenȱyouȱdonȇtȱthinkȱyouȱ areȱ fantasizingȱ itȱ isȱ stillȱ enteringȱ perception,ȱ becauseȱ perceptionȱ isȱ allȱ basicallyȱofȱtheȱsameȱnatureȱasȱtheȱprocessȱofȱimagination.ȱIfȱyouȱthinkȱofȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ perceptionȱ isȱ createdȱ fromȱ theȱ brainȱ inȱ responseȱ toȱ information,ȱitȱfollowsȱinevitablyȱthatȱweȱcanȱeasilyȱproduceȱperceptionsȱ whichȱareȱnotȱright;ȱandȱweȱhaveȱtoȱcorrectȱthem.ȱ

Q:ȱ Whatȱ aboutȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ dueȱ toȱ psychologicalȱ addiction,ȱ butȱ whichȱincludesȱchemicalȱaddictionȱ—ȱsuchȱasȱthatȱofȱtheȱalcoholicȱorȱtheȱ drugȱaddict?ȱThisȱtooȱcanȱaffectȱperception.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱButȱpsychologicalȱaddictionȱisȱalwaysȱtheȱmostȱdifficultȱone.ȱ Forȱexample,ȱexperimentsȱhaveȱbeenȱdoneȱwhereȱanimalsȱwereȱ injectedȱ withȱ someȱ drug,ȱ maybeȱ morphine,ȱ whichȱ madeȱ themȱ chemicallyȱ addicted.ȱThereȱwereȱ twoȱgroupsȱ Ȭȱoneȱwasȱenabledȱ toȱ injectȱ itselfȱandȱ theȱotherȱwasȱ injected.ȱThenȱ theȱdrugȱwasȱwithheldȱ fromȱbothȱgroups.ȱ Theȱgroupȱthatȱwasȱinjectedȱwentȱthroughȱaȱwithdrawalȱprocessȱandȱwasȱ noȱ longerȱ addicted.ȱTheȱ animalsȱ thatȱwereȱ ableȱ toȱpressȱ theȱ buttonȱ toȱ injectȱ themselvesȱ gotȱ throughȱ theȱ withdrawalȱ process,ȱ butȱ wheneverȱ theyȱsawȱtheȱbuttonȱtheyȱpressedȱitȱagain,ȱevenȱthoughȱitȱnoȱlongerȱgaveȱ themȱtheȱdrug.ȱTheȱpointȱisȱthatȱtheȱmemoryȱofȱthatȱpleasureȱproducedȱaȱ reflexȱ toȱ pressȱ theȱ button.ȱ Theȱ buttonȱ stirredȱ upȱ theȱwholeȱ systemȱ ofȱ memory.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Areȱ fantasyȱ andȱ imaginationȱ mostlyȱ basedȱ onȱ memoryȱ andȱ pastȱ experiences?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ saidȱ thatȱ thereȱ areȱ severalȱ kindsȱ ofȱ imagination.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ theȱ imaginationȱbasedȱonȱmemory,ȱwhichȱisȱeitherȱrememberingȱtheȱpastȱorȱ projectingȱ theȱ future.ȱ Inȱaddition,ȱ thereȱ isȱaȱcreativeȱ imaginationȱwhichȱ canȱprojectȱsomethingȱnewȱwhichȱyouȱcanȱthenȱbringȱintoȱexistenceȱȬȱforȱ example,ȱaȱnewȱideaȱtoȱcreateȱsomethingȱwhichȱwasȱneverȱthere.ȱInȱfact,ȱ aȱgreatȱmanyȱthingsȱweȱseeȱhereȱwereȱtheȱresultȱofȱthat.ȱ

AndȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱperceptionȱisȱaȱprocessȱsimilarȱtoȱimagination.ȱNow,ȱ thisȱisȱtheȱkeyȱthing.ȱButȱweȱhaveȱnoȱcontrolȱoverȱit.ȱItȱ justȱhappens.ȱItȇsȱ goingȱ onȱ andȱ createsȱ theȱ wholeȱ impressionȱ ofȱ aȱ world.ȱ Thatȱ worldȱ includesȱnotȱ onlyȱwhatȱweȱ senseȱ Ȭȱwhatȱweȱ immediatelyȱperceiveȱ butȱ alsoȱtheȱeffectȱofȱtheȱpast.ȱThoughtȱisȱaffectingȱourȱperception.ȱ

Q:ȱInȱfantasyȱisȱthereȱneverȱcreativity?ȱ

Bohm:ȱInȱgeneralȱno,ȱbecauseȱitȇsȱbasedȱonȱtheȱpast.ȱIȱthinkȱthereȱisȱaȱrealȱ distinctionȱbetweenȱcreativeȱimaginationȱandȱfantasy.ȱFantasyȱmayȱlookȱ veryȱ creativeȱ andȱ feelȱ veryȱ creative,ȱ butȱ itȱmayȱ notȱ be.ȱYouȱ canȱ evenȱ fantasizeȱ thatȱyouȱareȱbeingȱveryȱ creative.ȱAnythingȱ canȱbeȱ fantasized;ȱ theȱpowerȱofȱfantasyȱisȱbeyondȱlimit.ȱAndȱitȱhasȱitsȱplaceȱȬȱforȱinstance,ȱifȱ youȱ imagineȱ arrangingȱ thingsȱ inȱ aȱ roomȱ aȱdifferentȱwayȱ thatȇsȱ fantasyȱ butȱthatȱmayȱbeȱuseful.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱimagesȱinȱwords,ȱinȱitself,ȱaȱphysicalȱsensoryȱtypeȱ ofȱperception?ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ isȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ physicalȱ process,ȱ yes.ȱ Itȱ isȱ veryȱ similarȱ toȱ theȱ processȱwhichȱoccursȱwhenȱyouȱ actuallyȱ seeȱ andȱhear,ȱbutȱ itȇsȱ comingȱ partlyȱfromȱmemory.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱ itȇsȱanȱactualȱphysicalȱ thingȱ inȱ theȱbrainȱandȱ theȱbody,ȱ andȱ itȱ kindȱofȱallȱcomesȱtogether?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ seeȱ thatȱpartȱofȱ theȱproblemȱ isȱ thatȱweȱhaveȱ repressedȱwordsȱandȱ imagesȱwhichȱ areȱ veryȱ quick.ȱWeȇreȱ usedȱ toȱ themȱ andȱ donȇtȱ seeȱ thatȱ theyȇreȱ there.ȱAndȱwhenȱweȱ thinkȱweȱareȱexperiencingȱpureȱperceptionȱ weȱ needȱ toȱ beȱ awareȱ thatȱ theȱ wordȱ andȱ imageȱ areȱ colouringȱ thatȱ perceptionȱ toȱ createȱ pleasure.ȱWhatȱ isȱ theȱ insightȱ thatȱ canȱ breakȱ theȱ addictionȱtoȱpleasure?ȱ

Bohm:ȱLetȇsȱlookȱatȱitȱfirstȱforȱaȱwhile.ȱInȱfantasyȱyouȱcanȱcreateȱpleasure,ȱ pain,ȱ fear,ȱ anything,ȱ becauseȱ youȱ areȱ producingȱ fromȱ memoryȱ anȱ

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experienceȱ similarȱ toȱwhatȱmightȱbeȱproducedȱ ifȱ itȱwerenȇtȱmemory.ȱ Ifȱ youȱareȱsensitiveȱyouȱalwaysȱcanȱtellȱthereȱisȱaȱdifference,ȱbutȱtheȱfantasyȱ mayȱ captivateȱyouȱ soȱ farȱ thatȱyouȇreȱnotȱ sensitiveȱ toȱ theȱdifference.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱyouȱmayȱnotȱwantȱtoȱknowȱtheȱdifference,ȱbecauseȱ itȱhasȱcreatedȱaȱ reflex,ȱ saying:ȱ ȇThisȱ isȱ soȱniceȱ Iȱdonȇtȱwantȱ toȱknowȱ anyȱmore.ȱ Iȱdonȇtȱ wantȱ toȱ knowȱ aboutȱ it.ȱ Iȱ donȇtȱwantȱ evidenceȱ thatȱ itȱmayȱ notȱ beȱ so.ȇȱ Everybodyȱisȱfamiliarȱwithȱthatȱexperience.ȱ

Butȱyouȱcanȱseeȱ thatȱ itȇsȱbasicallyȱcomingȱ fromȱmemory,ȱ fromȱ thought.ȱ Byȱwordsȱyouȱcanȱcreateȱfantasies.ȱForȱexample,ȱthatȇsȱwhatȱadvertisingȱ isȱ doingȱ allȱ theȱ time.ȱ Theȱ combinationȱ ofȱ wordsȱ andȱ imagesȱ createsȱ fantasy.ȱ Theȱ purposeȱ isȱ toȱ createȱ theȱ expectationȱ orȱ theȱ senseȱ ofȱ theȱ pleasureȱyouȱwillȱget,ȱorȱtheȱadvantagesȱyouȱwillȱgetȱoutȱofȱtheȱproductȱ theyȱareȱselling.ȱItȇsȱaimedȱtoȱgetȱyouȱtoȱfantasizeȱsomethingȱaboutȱthatȱ product.ȱ Aȱ greatȱ dealȱ ofȱ workȱ isȱ requiredȱ toȱ produceȱ thoseȱ advertisements.ȱTheyȱthinkȱ itȱoutȱveryȱthoroughlyȱandȱtheȱ imagesȱhaveȱ toȱbeȱcarefullyȱchosenȱandȱconnectedȱwithȱ theȱwords.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱhowȱ thisȱ processȱ isȱ goingȱ onȱ allȱ around.ȱ Theȱ advertisersȱ didnȇtȱ inventȱ it.ȱ Theyȇreȱ onlyȱ takingȱ advantageȱ ofȱ somethingȱ thatȇsȱ beenȱ goingȱ onȱ forȱ ages.ȱ

Nowȱyouȱaskȱȇwhatȱaboutȱanȱinsightȱorȱperception?ȇ.ȱWell,ȱweȱcanȇtȱmakeȱ thatȱtoȱorder.ȱButȱIȇmȱsuggestingȱthatȱweȱcanȱhaveȱanȱinsightȱthatȱthoughtȱ andȱfantasyȱcanȱproduceȱaȱsenseȱofȱȇrealityȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ feelȱ Iȱhaveȱ thatȱ insight.ȱButȱbecauseȱofȱ theȱpleasureȱ thatȱoneȱgetsȱ fromȱ itȱ Ȭȱbecauseȱ thereȇsȱ thatȱ connectionȱ inȱ theȱbrainȱorȱwhatever,ȱ thatȱ mechanismȱbyȱwhichȱ theseȱ fantasiesȱ createȱpleasureȱorȱ createȱpainȱ Ȭȱ itȱ seemsȱasȱthoughȱoneȱsomehowȱneedsȱtoȱbreakȱthatȱconnection.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱyouȱneedȱaȱfurtherȱinsightȱintoȱwhyȱtheȱmindȱisȱescapingȱtheȱ consequencesȱ ofȱ theȱ firstȱ insight.ȱAlthoughȱweȱ haveȱ anȱ insightȱ atȱ theȱ levelȱofȱinference,ȱtheseȱreflexesȱareȱstillȱworking.ȱ

Soȱoneȱthingȱtoȱdoȱisȱ justȱtoȱgetȱmoreȱfamiliarȱwithȱitȱbyȱwatchingȱit,ȱbyȱ usingȱtheȱwordsȱwhichȱproduceȱtheȱpleasureȱinȱtheȱsameȱwayȱthatȱweȇveȱ talkedȱ aboutȱ usingȱ theȱwordsȱ toȱ callȱ upȱ angerȱ orȱ fear,ȱ andȱ followȱ itȱ through.ȱIȱthinkȱifȱyouȱstayȱwithȱitȱandȱbuildȱupȱthatȱpleasureȱfromȱthoseȱ words,ȱyouȱwillȱ eventuallyȱgetȱ theȱ senseȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱmechanical,ȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ justȱsomethingȱgoingȱonȱinȱtheȱbody.ȱItȱhasnȇtȱaȱgreatȱsignificance.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱseeȱitȱslightlyȱdifferently.ȱLetȇsȱsayȱIȱhaveȱthisȱinsight.ȱSomehowȱtheȱ reflexȱcomesȱup,ȱtheȱsynapseȱconnectionȱisȱthere,ȱbutȱitȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱtheȱ hold.ȱItȇsȱlike,ȱȇwell,ȱsoȱitȇsȱgoingȱtoȱdoȱitsȱthing,ȱbutȱIȱdonȇtȱbelieveȱinȱitȱinȱ theȱsameȱwayȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱweakensȱit.ȱButȱyouȱcan,ȱifȱyouȱwish,ȱsortȱofȱdoȱthisȱexerciseȱ ofȱreallyȱmakingȱtheȱreflexȱworkȱnowȱthatȱitȱhasȱbeenȱweakened.ȱUntilȱitȱ hadȱbeenȱweakenedȱyouȱcouldnȇtȱdoȱthis.ȱAsȱlongȱasȱyouȱbelievedȱinȱtheȱ reflex,ȱ theȱ ideaȱ ofȱ doingȱ thisȱwouldȱ haveȱ beenȱ impossible.ȱYouȱ couldȱ nowȱsayȱȇIȱdonȇtȱbelieveȱinȱitȱanymoreȱandȱthereforeȱIȱcanȱtryȱtoȱmakeȱtheȱ reflexȱworkȇ,ȱandȱbecomeȱveryȱmuchȱmoreȱclearȱthatȱitȱisȱaȱreflex.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱ ifȱ oneȱ doesȱwhatȱ youȇreȱ suggestingȱwouldȱ thatȱ speedȱ upȱ theȱ processȱofȱgettingȱridȱofȱtheȱsynapse?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱItȱmight,ȱyes.ȱItȱmightȱdoȱsomething,ȱandȱthenȱatȱsomeȱstageȱyouȱ wouldȱhaveȱ anȱ insightȱ thatȱ theȱwholeȱ thingȱhasȱnoȱmeaningȱ Ȭȱ itȇsȱ justȱ simplyȱaȱmechanicalȱprocess.ȱ

Q:ȱ Butȱ atȱ thatȱ point,ȱ theȱ insightȱ isnȇtȱ somethingȱ whichȱ isȱ happeningȱ aboutȱ theȱ wordsȱ anymore.ȱ Rather,ȱ itȇsȱ someȱ directȱ perceptionȱ ofȱ theȱ crossoverȱ betweenȱ fantasizingȱ andȱ perceiving,ȱ inȱ theȱ processȱ ofȱ thatȱ happening.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ youȱ getȱ aȱ directȱ senseȱ ofȱ that;ȱ andȱ thatȱ beginsȱ toȱ removeȱ thoseȱreflexesȱwhichȱwereȱtellingȱyouȱthatȱitȇsȱtheȱotherȱwayȱaround.ȱTheȱ thingȱwhichȱisȱconfusingȱusȱisȱthatȱweȱstillȱhaveȱaȱlotȱofȱreflexesȱtellingȱusȱ itȇsȱnotȱthatȱwayȱatȱall.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ donȇtȱ knowȱwhetherȱ itȇsȱ aȱ problem,ȱ butȱwhatȱ aboutȱ theȱ reflexȱ ofȱ questioningȱallȱtheȱreflexes?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱquestionȱtheseȱreflexesȱbecauseȱyouȇveȱhadȱanȱinsightȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱaȱvastȱnumberȱofȱreflexesȱandȱ thereȱ isȱnoȱreasonȱwhyȱ theyȱ shouldȱbeȱintelligent.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱinsight.ȱ

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Q:ȱIȱthinkȱofȱtheȱreflexȱasȱaȱbutton.ȱWhenȱtheȱbuttonȱisȱbeingȱpushed,ȱcanȱ thereȱ beȱ anȱ insightȱ intoȱ itsȱ actionȱ whileȱ itȇsȱ happening,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱ thinkingȱaboutȱitȱlater?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱorȱ evenȱbeforeȱ itȱhappens,ȱbecauseȱyouȱhaveȱ seenȱ throughȱ thisȱsoȱthoroughlyȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱnoȱwishȱtoȱpressȱtheȱbutton.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱtheȱrealȱproofȱofȱtheȱinsight,ȱifȱweȇreȱgoingȱtoȱcallȱitȱthat,ȱisȱthatȱtheȱ thingȱjustȱdoesnȇtȱhappen.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ butȱ weȱ haveȱ toȱ testȱ theȱ insight,ȱ becauseȱ weȱ canȱ alwaysȱ fantasizeȱthatȱweȇveȱhadȱ it.ȱWeȱcanȱtestȱtheȱ insightȱbyȱseeingȱwhetherȱ itȱ standsȱupȱreasonablyȱandȱlogically,ȱwhetherȱweȱareȱactuallyȱableȱtoȱdoȱit,ȱ andȱ soȱon.ȱYouȱhaveȱ toȱwatchȱ itȱallȱ theȱ time,ȱbecauseȱ itȇsȱveryȱ easyȱ toȱ haveȱaȱfantasyȱofȱanȱinsightȱandȱsayȱthatȱyouȇveȱhadȱanȱinsight.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱcarefulȱwhenȱusingȱtheȱwordȱȇinsightȇ,ȱandȱbeȱsensitiveȱ toȱwhatȱ insightȱ is.ȱItȇsȱnotȱthatȱIȱamȱmakingȱtheȱ insight,ȱbutȱ itȇsȱthatȱtheȱ insightȱhappens.ȱ

Bohm:ȱOrȱ elseȱ toȱ beȱ sensitiveȱ toȱ somethingȱ thatȱ canȱ beȱmistakenȱ forȱ insight.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Thoughtȱ canȱ deceiveȱ itself.ȱ Itȱ canȱ fabricateȱ theȱ impressionȱ ofȱ anȱ insight,ȱbutȱthatȱhasȱnothingȱtoȱdoȱwithȱinsight.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ thatȇsȱ theȱ reflexiveȱ imagination.ȱ Youȱ canȱ getȱ imaginationȱ whichȱ comesȱ fromȱ theȱmemoryȱandȱwhichȱ isȱaȱ reflex;ȱ soȱ itȇsȱnotȱ reallyȱ relevantȱ toȱ this.ȱButȱwhenȱyouȱ seeȱ somethingȱnewȱyouȱcouldȱevenȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱ insightȱ isȱalmostȱaȱkindȱofȱcreativeȱ imagination,ȱbutȱoneȱwhichȱ actuallyȱ actsȱ directlyȱ inȱ theȱ materialȱ process.ȱ Theȱ nervousȱ structure,ȱ synapsesȱ andȱ soȱ onȱ areȱ soȱ infinitelyȱ complexȱ thatȱ theȱmemoryȱ couldȱ neverȱhandleȱ itȱall.ȱTheȱmemoryȱ couldȱneverȱknowȱallȱ that,ȱyouȱ couldȱ neverȱknowȱitȱall.ȱButȱtheȱinsightȱisȱableȱtoȱmeetȱthatȱasȱitȱactuallyȱis,ȱatȱ theȱmomentȱȬȱthis,ȱisȱtheȱcrucialȱthingȱ—ȱwithoutȱtime.ȱIfȱitȱtakesȱtimeȱitȱ wonȇtȱmeetȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱInȱaȱwayȱIȱthinkȱyouȱcouldȱalmostȱsayȱthatȱnoȱoneȱcouldȱeverȱȇhaveȇȱanȱ insightȱ Ȭȱ thatȱwithinȱaȱparticularȱorganismȱsomethingȱmightȱoccur,ȱandȱ afterȱ theȱ factȱsomeoneȱmightȱsayȱ thatȱ thatȱwasȱanȱ insight.ȱButȱwhetherȱ youȱ imaginedȱ itȱ orȱ somethingȱ actuallyȱ happened,ȱ itȱ wouldȱ neverȱ beȱ anythingȱyouȱhad,ȱbutȱ justȱ thatȱ thereȱmightȱbeȱaȱdifferentȱorganizationȱ withinȱtheȱorganism.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Yes.ȱ Thatȱ insightȱ tookȱ placeȱ andȱ thereȱ wasȱ aȱ changeȱ inȱ theȱ organism.ȱ Theȱ insightȱ isȱ probablyȱ fromȱ immenseȱ depthsȱ ofȱ subtletyȱ Ȭȱ perhapsȱevenȱbeyondȱtheȱorganismȱforȱallȱweȱknow.ȱWhereverȱitȱcomesȱ from,ȱ theȱ importantȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ worksȱ directlyȱ atȱ theȱ physicalȱ chemicalȱ levelȱofȱ theȱorganism,ȱalongȱwithȱeverythingȱelse.ȱSoȱ itȱ reallyȱ affectsȱyouȱthroughȱandȱthrough.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱinsightȱavailableȱtoȱallȱofȱus?ȱAndȱdoesȱitȱtakeȱanȱemotionalȱopeningȱ forȱitȱtoȱcomeȱin?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱ donȇtȱ knowȱwhereȱ itȱ comesȱ from.ȱ Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ availableȱtoȱallȱofȱus.ȱButȱtheȱreflexȱofȱthoughtȱisȱcontinuallyȱresistingȱandȱ defendingȱagainstȱ it,ȱbecauseȱ theȱ insightȱmayȱbeȱseenȱasȱaȱ threatȱ toȱ theȱ structureȱwhichȱyouȱwantȱtoȱhold.ȱ

Q:ȱ Insightȱ affectsȱ theȱ conditioning;ȱ itȱmayȱ evenȱ beȱ thatȱ notȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ itȱ survivesȱȬȱthatȱaȱlotȱofȱtheȱconditioningȱdies,ȱitȱdissolves.ȱ

ȱȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ threatȱ toȱ theȱ conditioning,ȱyes.ȱButȱ theȱ conditioningȱ is,ȱ inȱ fact,ȱnotȱallȱthatȱ important.ȱHowever,ȱtheȱconditioningȱcontainsȱaȱreflexȱ whichȱinformsȱyouȱthatȱtheȱconditioningȱisȱveryȱimportant.ȱ

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Now,ȱ Iȱwonderȱ ifȱweȱ shouldnȇtȱgoȱ intoȱ theȱquestionȱofȱ theȱ selfȬimage.ȱ Weȇveȱalreadyȱsortȱofȱ touchedȱonȱ itȱbyȱ thinkingȱofȱ theȱ imaginationȱandȱ fantasyȱgivingȱaȱ senseȱofȱaȱ selfȱ thatȱ couldȱbeȱveryȱdifferentȱ fromȱyourȱ usualȱ sense.ȱAndȱ youȱ reallyȱ feelȱ it,ȱ youȱ experienceȱ it.ȱOrȱ youȱ canȱ beȱ watchingȱtelevisionȱorȱaȱplayȱorȱaȱmovieȱandȱgettingȱlostȱinȱtheȱcharactersȱ andȱ feelȱ thatȱ thatȱcharacterȱactuallyȱ isȱyou.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱyouȇreȱexperiencingȱ theȱcharacterȱ throughȱyourself,ȱbecauseȱ theȱ televisionȱ imageȱ isȱnothingȱ butȱaȱlotȱofȱdotsȱofȱlightȱonȱtheȱscreen.ȱAllȱtheȱthingsȱyouȱseeȱinȱthereȱareȱ reallyȱyourself.ȱ

Andȱ thatȇsȱ howȱ youȱ perceiveȱ everything.ȱ Clearly,ȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ imaginationȱ involvedȱ inȱ lookingȱatȱ theȱ televisionȱ image.ȱ Ifȱyouȱwereȱ toȱ lookȱatȱitȱcarefullyȱyouȱwouldȱseeȱnothingȱbutȱflashingȱlights.ȱButȱyouȱseeȱ people,ȱtrees,ȱcharacters;ȱyouȱseeȱemotionalȱconflictsȱandȱdanger;ȱyouȱseeȱ anger,ȱ fear,ȱpleasure.ȱButȱ itȇsȱallȱyourself.ȱ Itȇsȱallȱ theȱ imaginationȱbeingȱ infusedȱ intoȱ theȱ pictureȱ onȱ theȱ screenȱ Ȭȱ justȱ asȱ itȱ getsȱ infusedȱ intoȱ perception.ȱ Soȱ whenȱ youȇreȱ lookingȱ atȱ theȱ televisionȱ set,ȱ whatȱ youȱ experienceȱmustȱcomeȱfromȱsomethingȱ likeȱtheȱ imagination.ȱWhereȱelseȱ couldȱitȱcomeȱfrom?ȱ

Itȱ becomesȱmoreȱ andȱmoreȱ clearȱ howȱ thoughtȱ entersȱ intoȱ perception.ȱ Thought,ȱthough,ȱdoesnȇtȱknowȱitȇsȱdoingȱit.ȱInȱfact,ȱmostȱofȱtheȱtimeȱyouȱ donȇtȱneedȱtoȱknow.ȱHowever,ȱwhenȱthereȱisȱincoherenceȱyouȱdoȱneedȱtoȱ know.ȱThisȱ isȱ theȱpoint:ȱ Ifȱ thereȱ isȱaȱresistanceȱ toȱknowingȱ itȱwhenȱyouȱ needȱ toȱ know,ȱ ifȱ thereȱ areȱ reflexesȱ thatȱ resistȱ knowing,ȱ thenȱ thereȱ isȱ trouble.ȱ

YouȱcanȇtȱkeepȱtrackȱofȱallȱthatȱȬȱeveryȱtimeȱyouȱwatchȱtheȱtelevisionȱset,ȱ thinkingȱȇwell,ȱthisȱisȱreallyȱme,ȱprojectingȱintoȱtheȱtelevisionȱscreenȇ.ȱItȇsȱ likeȱ theȱ rainbow.ȱ Iȱ seeȱ aȱ rainbowȱ outȱ there;ȱ butȱ accordingȱ toȱ physics,ȱ actuallyȱ thereȱareȱdropsȱofȱ rainȱ fallingȱandȱ lightȱ refractingȱoffȱofȱ them.ȱ

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Theȱ sameȱ sortȱofȱ thingȱhappensȱwhenȱyouȇreȱ lookingȱatȱ theȱ television.ȱ Thereȱareȱspotsȱofȱlight,ȱandȱyouȱseeȱallȱsortsȱofȱthingsȱhappening;ȱbutȱitȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ natureȱ asȱ theȱ rainbow.ȱ Itȇsȱ closerȱ toȱ theȱ actualityȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ thereȱisȱaȱprocessȱgoingȱonȱinȱtheȱtelevisionȱsetȱȬȱaȱcomplexȱprocessȱwithȱ theȱlight,ȱwithȱyourȱnerves,ȱwithȱeverything.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱgetȱholdȱofȱitȱall.ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ representation;ȱ thatȱ dramaȱ isȱ representingȱ somethingȱ inȱ many,ȱ manyȱlevels.ȱAndȱwhatȱyouȱseeȱandȱexperienceȱisȱthatȱrepresentation.ȱ

Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ makeȱ itȱ moreȱ clearȱ howȱ thisȱ thingȱ isȱ actuallyȱ aȱ veryȱ commonȱexperienceȱandȱnotȱsoȱhard.ȱWeȱareȱ infusingȱourȱ imagination,ȱ ourȱpast,ȱourȱknowledgeȱintoȱwhatȱweȱseeȱȬȱnotȱȇweȇȱareȱdoingȱit,ȱbutȱitȇsȱ doingȱitȱitself.ȱAndȱthatȱisnȇtȱnecessarilyȱbad.ȱItȱmayȱbeȱveryȱnecessaryȱinȱ manyȱcontexts.ȱHowever,ȱwhenȱweȱfailȱtoȱseeȱthatȱthisȱisȱhappeningȱthenȱ weȱareȱinȱdanger,ȱespeciallyȱifȱthereȱisȱresistanceȱtoȱseeingȱit.ȱAndȱweȱareȱ conditionedȱ toȱ resistȱ seeingȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱhappening.ȱThatȇsȱ reallyȱwhereȱ theȱselfȬdeceptionȱarises.ȱ

Now,ȱitȇsȱaroundȱtheȱselfȬimageȱthatȱtheȱproblemȱisȱmostȱdifficult.ȱWeȇveȱ gotȱaȱkindȱofȱselfȬimageȱthatȱisȱalmostȱlikeȱaȱtelevisionȱprogrammeȱgoingȱ onȱ inside;ȱ itsȱgoingȱonȱ inȱ theȱnerves,ȱandȱ soȱ forth.ȱAndȱ thisȱ imageȱhasȱ severalȱparts.ȱOneȱpartȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱ ȇsomebodyȇȱ insideȱatȱwhomȱyouȱareȱ looking.ȱAnotherȱpartȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱ ȇsomebodyȇȱwhoȱ isȱ looking.ȱWeȱhaveȱ differentȱwordsȱforȱthese.ȱTheȱwordȱȇIȇȱstandsȱforȱtheȱsubject,ȱtheȱoneȱwhoȱ sees,ȱwhoȱ acts,ȱwhoȱ does,ȱwhoȱ determinesȱ everything,ȱwhoȱ hasȱwill.ȱ ȇWillȇȱisȱtheȱsameȱasȱȇdetermineȇȱandȱȇintentionȇ.ȱȇI’ȱamȱdeterminedȇȱmeansȱ strongȱwill.ȱ ȇIȇȱ isȱ theȱ activeȱ agent.ȱ Iȱwill,ȱ Iȱdetermine,ȱ Iȱ see,ȱ Iȱ choose,ȱ Iȱ think.ȱAndȱ alsoȱ thereȱ isȱ ȇmeȇȱ toȱwhomȱ itȇsȱ allȱ done.ȱ ȇMeȇȱ isȱ theȱ object,ȱ everythingȱ happensȱ toȱme.ȱ Then,ȱ theȱ basicȱ concept,ȱ theȱ ȇself,ȱ isȱwhatȱ unitesȱ thoseȱ two.ȱ Iȱ andȱmeȱ areȱ twoȱ sidesȱ ofȱmyself.ȱ Soȱ thereȱ areȱme,ȱ myselfȱandȱI.ȱThatȇsȱaȱconceptȱofȱtheȱself.ȱ

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Weȇveȱdiscussedȱthisȱmanyȱtimes,ȱthatȱtheȱwordȱȇIȇȱbyȱitselfȱmeansȱalmostȱ theȱ sameȱasȱGod.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱultimateȱ sourceȱofȱeverything.ȱ Inȱ theȱ storyȱofȱ Mosesȱwhoȱcameȱtoȱtheȱburningȱbushȱ inȱtheȱdesertȱandȱaskedȱtheȱvoiceȱ whatȱwasȱitsȱname,ȱtheȱvoiceȱsaidȱthatȱHisȱnameȱwasȱȇIȱAmȱThatȱIȱAmȇ.ȱȇIȱ AmȇȱwasȱHisȱfirstȱnameȱandȱȇIȱAmȇȱwasȱHisȱsecondȱname.ȱLaterȱtheȱvoiceȱ saidȱagainȱthatȱȇIȱAmȇȱwasȱhisȱname;ȱwhenȱMosesȱaskedȱȇwhoȱshallȱIȱsayȱ sentȱme?ȇȱtheȱvoiceȱsaidȱȇYouȱshallȱsayȱthatȱȈIȱamȈȱsentȱyouȇ.ȱEvidentlyȱȇIȱ AmȇȱwasȱconsideredȱtoȱbeȱtheȱnameȱofȱGod,ȱwhichȱwasȱveryȱsacred,ȱnotȱ supposedȱtoȱbeȱrepeated,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

ThatȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱperceptionȱthatȱtheȱphraseȱȇIȱamȇȱbyȱitselfȱrepresentsȱtheȱ pureȱsubject,ȱtheȱpureȱsource,ȱtheȱone,ȱtheȱsourceȱofȱeverything;ȱandȱthatȱ ȇmeȇȱ representsȱ theȱ object.ȱ Butȱweȱ identifyȱ orȱ equateȱ ȇIȱ amȇȱwithȱ ȇmeȇ,ȱ sayingȱȇIȱamȱthis,ȱIȱamȱthat,ȱIȱamȱwhatȱIȱam,ȱIȱamȱallȱtheȱthingsȱattributedȱ toȱmeȇ.ȱHowever,ȱ thereȱ comesȱ aȱproblemȱ inȱ equatingȱ ȇIȱ amȇȱwithȱ ȇmeȇ,ȱ becauseȱȇmeȇȱisȱalwaysȱlimited;ȱȇlittleȱyouȇ,ȱtheyȱsay,ȱȇwhoȱareȱyouȱtoȱthinkȱ youȱ areȱ great,ȱ theȱ greatȱ ȈIȱ AmȈ?ȇ.ȱ Whereasȱ ȇIȱ amȇ,ȱ withoutȱ addingȱ anythingȱmore,ȱdoesȱnotȱhaveȱanyȱimplicitȱlimitation.ȱ

Theȱessentialȱpointȱisȱthatȱtheȱȇmeȇȱisȱalwaysȱlimited,ȱbutȱweȱfeelȱthatȱȇmeȇȱ isȱ theȱsameȱasȱ ȇIȱamȇ,ȱasȱ ȇIȇ.ȱNow,ȱ thisȱcreatesȱaȱconflict.ȱPeopleȱwantȱ toȱ say:ȱȇIȇmȱtheȱgreatest.ȱIȇmȱtheȱbest.ȱIȇmȱtheȱmostȱwonderful.ȇȱWeȱhaveȱthisȱ great,ȱbrightȱandȱ shiningȱ image.ȱAndȱ thenȱ theȱworldȱ comesȱalongȱandȱ saysȱ ȇYouȇreȱ nothing.ȱ Youȇreȱ justȱ foolingȱ yourself.ȱ Youȇreȱ nobody.ȇȱ Itȱ deflatesȱthatȱimage,ȱwhichȱbecomesȱaȱshockȱandȱcreatesȱaȱgreatȱpainȱȬȱtheȱ fantasyȱofȱpleasureȱcanȱequallyȱturnȱintoȱtheȱfantasyȱofȱpainȱandȱfearȱandȱ horror.ȱInȱaȱfantasyȱyouȱcanȱreallyȱgetȱintoȱallȱthat.ȱ

Butȱ itȇsȱveryȱhardȱ toȱkeepȱ theȱ thoughtȱofȱ ȇIȇȱandȱ ȇmeȇȱorderlyȱ Ȭȱ toȱmakeȱ senseȱofȱ it,ȱ toȱmakeȱ itȱcoherent.ȱPeopleȱdonȇtȱknowȱhowȱ toȱ resolveȱ thisȱ contradictionȱbetweenȱ ȇIȱamȇȱandȱ ȇmeȇ.ȱPeopleȱsay:ȱ ȇYouȱshouldȱnotȱtreatȱ

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meȱasȱanȱobject.ȱIȱdonȇtȱlikeȱit.ȱIȇmȱinsulted,ȱhurt.ȇȱAndȱsocietyȱsays:ȱȇWhoȱ doȱyouȱ thinkȱyouȱareȱ thatȱyouȱshouldȱbeȱdifferentȱ fromȱeverybodyȱelseȱ andȱnotȱbeȱtreatedȱasȱanȱobject?ȱYouȱthinkȱthatȱyouȱshouldnȇtȱbeȱlimited.ȇȱ Yetȱȇmeȇ,ȱbyȱdefinition,ȱisȱanȱobject.ȱ

Theȱ littleȱ childȱmayȱ feelȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱnoȱ limit,ȱ thatȱheȇsȱeverything.ȱHeȱ formsȱthatȱthought,ȱthatȱreflex,ȱthatȱfantasy.ȱWhetherȱitȱreflectsȱanythingȱ realȱorȱnot,ȱweȱdonȇtȱknow.ȱWhatȱisȱimportantȱisȱthatȱitȱsetsȱupȱaȱreflex,ȱ sayingȱ ȇthatȇsȱmeȇ.ȱHeȱwouldȱhardlyȱ formȱ anȱ identityȱwithoutȱ that.ȱHeȱ alsoȱ dependsȱ onȱ otherȱ peopleȱ toȱ tellȱ himȱwhatȱ heȱ isȱ andȱwhoȱ heȱ is.ȱ Howeverȱtheȱgreat,ȱbrightȱandȱshiningȱbeingȱheȱseesȱfromȱwithinȱ isȱnotȱ alwaysȱ seenȱ fromȱwithout.ȱOtherȱpeopleȱdonȇtȱbackȱ thatȱup.ȱTheyȱmayȱ treatȱhimȱasȱGodȱwhenȱheȇsȱaȱveryȱyoungȱchild,ȱbutȱthenȱaȱtimeȱsuddenlyȱ appearsȱwhenȱtheyȱdonȇt.ȱ

Soȱyouȱhaveȱ thisȱ tremendousȱconflict.ȱYouȱhaveȱwhatȱFreudȱcalledȱ theȱ narcissisticȱ image.ȱ Thereȇsȱ theȱGreekȱ legendȱ ofȱNarcissus,ȱwhoȱ sawȱ aȱ beautifulȱmanȱ inȱtheȱwaterȱandȱdidnȇtȱrealizeȱ itȱwasȱhisȱownȱ image.ȱHeȱ fellȱ inȱ loveȱwithȱ it.ȱButȱheȱcouldȱneverȱgetȱ toȱ thatȱ image,ȱandȱheȱpinedȱ awayȱ andȱ died.ȱTheȱ ironyȱwasȱ heȱ alreadyȱ hadȱ thatȱ forȱwhichȱ heȱwasȱ longing,ȱ heȱ alreadyȱwasȱ thatȱ forȱwhichȱ heȱwasȱ longing.ȱHowever,ȱ heȱ didnȇtȱ believeȱ itȱ orȱwouldnȇtȱ acceptȱ it.ȱHeȱ saidȱ ȇthatȇsȱ somebodyȱ else,ȱ whomȱIȱneedȇ.ȱ

Theȱpointȱis:ȱwhenȱweȱproduceȱthisȱselfȬimageȱinȱfantasyȱitȱthenȱbecomesȱ theȱthingȱlongedȱfor.ȱAndȱweȱsayȱ ȇthereȱitȱisȱfarȱawayȱfromȱme,ȱandȱIȇveȱ gotȱtoȱreachȱif.ȱButȱthisȱisȱanotherȱfantasy,ȱanotherȱimage.ȱAndȱitȱcreatesȱ theȱsenseȱȇIȱneedȱtoȱhaveȱthatȇ.ȱ

Theȱ senseȱ ofȱ necessityȱ givesȱ theȱ greatestȱ forceȱ andȱ powerȱ thereȱ isȱ inȱ humanȱaffairs.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱresolveȱthat.ȱAndȱtheȱchildȱneverȱreallyȱlearnsȱȬȱ

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notȱinȱourȱcurrentȱsociety,ȱnorȱprobablyȱinȱanyȱsocietyȱofȱwhichȱweȱknowȱ Ȭȱtoȱgetȱfreeȱofȱthisȱimage,ȱtoȱgetȱfreeȱofȱbeingȱboundȱtoȱthisȱimage.ȱ

Therefore,ȱwhenȱ theȱ imageȱ isȱ puncturedȱ itȱ hurts.ȱ Theȱ fantasyȱ ofȱ thisȱ great,ȱglorious,ȱshiningȱbeingȱisȱthenȱturnedȱintoȱaȱfantasyȱofȱsomebodyȱ whoȱ isȱdespisedȱ andȱ lookedȱdownȱuponȱ andȱ limitedȱ Ȭȱwhoȱ isȱnothingȱ much,ȱandȱallȱthatȱsortȱofȱthingȱȬȱwhichȱcreatesȱpain.ȱAndȱthatȱcreatesȱtheȱ needȱtoȱhaveȱotherȱpeopleȱtellȱmeȱhowȱgreatȱIȱamȱandȱitȱcreatesȱtheȱsenseȱ ȇIȇȱneedȱtoȱgetȱproofȱofȱhowȱgreatȱIȱamȱbyȱwhatȱIȱdoȱorȱbyȱwhatȱIȱownȇ,ȱ andȱthatȱsortȱofȱthing.ȱ

Thisȱisȱveryȱpowerful.ȱHumanȱaffairsȱareȱveryȱpowerfullyȱdominatedȱbyȱ allȱ that.ȱAndȱ aȱmegalomaniacȱwouldȱ sayȱ ȇIȇȱmustȱgovernȱ theȱworldȱ inȱ orderȱ toȱ showȱwhatȱ Iȱamȇ,ȱ asȱdidȱAlexanderȱ theȱGreat.ȱ Itȱwasȱ reputedȱ thatȱ neitherȱ heȱ norȱ hisȱ motherȱ everȱ gotȱ alongȱ withȱ hisȱ father.ȱ Heȱ identifiedȱwithȱhisȱmother,ȱandȱ somehowȱ theyȱcameȱ toȱhateȱhisȱ father.ȱ Probablyȱheȱfeltȱaȱstrongȱnecessityȱtoȱshowȱhisȱfatherȱhowȱgreatȱheȱwas,ȱ soȱtoȱdoȱthatȱheȱconqueredȱtheȱworld.ȱAndȱthenȱwhenȱheȱhadȱdoneȱthat,ȱ heȱsaidȱthatȱheȱwasȱveryȱsadȱbecauseȱheȱhadȱnoȱmoreȱworldsȱtoȱconquer.ȱ Inȱotherȱwords,ȱheȱhadȱtoȱkeepȱonȱconqueringȱtheȱworld,ȱheȱneverȱcouldȱ stop,ȱbecauseȱheȱhadȱtoȱfeedȱthatȱimageȱallȱtheȱtime.ȱ

Q:ȱ Butȱ theȱ philosopherȱ Diogenesȱ beatȱ himȱ down.ȱ Heȱ wasȱ livingȱ inȱ nature,ȱenjoyingȱtheȱsunshine,ȱandȱAlexanderȱtheȱGreatȱcameȱandȱstoodȱ inȱfrontȱofȱhimȱandȱcastȱaȱshadow.ȱTheȱphilosopherȱsaidȱtoȱhim:ȱ ȇCouldȱ youȱpleaseȱgetȱaway?ȱYouȱareȱblockingȱsomethingȱyouȱcanȇtȱgiveȱmeȱȬȱtheȱ sunshine.ȇȱTheȱwisdomȱofȱtheȱphilosopherȱbeatȱdownȱhisȱimage.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ Iȱ supposeȱ Alexanderȱ probablyȱ alwaysȱ suspectedȱ thatȱ itȱ wasnȇtȱquiteȱtrue.ȱIȱmean,ȱheȱwasnȇtȱstupid;ȱheȱwasȱreallyȱveryȱintelligent.ȱ Butȱheȱwasȱcaughtȱinȱthisȱimage.ȱAndȱheȱhadȱtremendousȱpowerȱbecauseȱ ofȱit.ȱPeopleȱwouldȱdoȱanythingȱforȱhimȱbecauseȱheȱhadȱsuchȱpower.ȱYouȱ canȱ seeȱhowȱ thisȱwholeȱ thingȱworks.ȱEverybodyȱhasȱ thisȱ sameȱ image,ȱ whichȱhasȱbeenȱbeatenȱdown.ȱHowever,ȱ ifȱ theȱ soldiersȱ sawȱAlexanderȱ theȱGreatȱwithȱaȱbrightȱgloriousȱshiningȱimage,ȱtheyȱcouldȱidentifyȱwithȱ it;ȱ theyȱwouldȱ feel,ȱ ȇIȇmȱ thatȱwayȱ tooȇ.ȱ Soȱ theyȱwouldȱdoȱ anythingȱ forȱ him.ȱWhateverȱ heȱ saidȱ forȱ themȱ toȱ do,ȱ theyȱ did.ȱAndȱ thereforeȱ theyȱ becameȱveryȱpowerful.ȱ

Youȱcanȱseeȱ theȱpowerȱofȱallȱ thisȱ imaginationȱandȱ fantasy.ȱThroughoutȱ allȱtheȱworldȱthatȱsortȱofȱthingȱhasȱproducedȱeffectsȱlikeȱthat.ȱThereȱwasȱ Hitler,ȱ andȱ thereȱ haveȱ beenȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ otherȱ people.ȱAndȱweȱ havenȇtȱ resolvedȱthisȱquestion.ȱ

Theȱ pointȱ isȱ nowȱ thatȱ thisȱ selfȬimageȱ containsȱ twoȱ parts.ȱAtȱ firstȱ thatȱ seemsȱreasonable,ȱbecauseȱevenȱphysicallyȱthereȱisȱȇIȇȱwhoȱisȱlookingȱandȱ ȇIȇȱatȱwhomȱtheȱlookingȱisȱdoneȱȬȇIȇȱwhoȱisȱtheȱsubjectȱandȱȇIȇȱwhoȱamȱtheȱ object.ȱIȱsay:ȱȇHereȱisȱmyȱbody.ȱIȱamȱlookingȱatȱit.ȇȱTheȱbodyȱisȱtheȱobjectȱ ofȱ theȱ looking.ȱButȱ Iȱamȱalsoȱ theȱ subjectȱ Ȭȱ ȇIȇȱwhoȱamȱ looking.ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ thatȱIȱamȱlookingȱatȱmyselfȱȬȱaȱreflexiveȱact.ȱItȱmakesȱsense,ȱright?ȱIȱwashȱ myself,ȱIȱshaveȱmyself,ȱIȱdoȱallȱsortsȱofȱthingsȱlikeȱthat.ȱ

AndȱthenȱwhenȱweȱformȱtheȱimageȱinsideȱitȱseemsȱthatȱthereȱisȱȇIȇȱwhoȱisȱ theȱ subject,ȱ lookingȱ atȱ ȇmeȇȱwhoȱ isȱ theȱ object.ȱDownȱ inȱ theȱ chestȱ areaȱ somewhereȱ perhapsȱ isȱ theȱ object,ȱ andȱ upȱ inȱ theȱ headȱ isȱ somebodyȱ looking.ȱThatȱcanȱbeȱarrangedȱbyȱ fantasyȱquiteȱeasilyȱ Ȭȱweȇveȱdiscussedȱ howȱthoughtȱentersȱperception:ȱonceȱthoughtȱsaysȱthatȱthatȇsȱtheȱwayȱ itȱ is,ȱthenȱweȱperceiveȱitȱthatȱway.ȱ

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Butȱnowȱifȱthatȱȇthingȇȱwhichȱisȱperceivedȱinȱthatȱwayȱwereȱactuallyȱthere,ȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱextremelyȱimportantȱandȱprecious,ȱwouldnȇtȱit?ȱItȱwouldȱbeȱ thisȱgreat,ȱgloriousȱshiningȱGodȱȬorȱatȱleastȱitȱoughtȱtoȱbe.ȱItȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱ centreȱofȱexistenceȱandȱeverything.ȱForȱtheȱlittleȱchildȱitȱis.ȱAndȱinȱfact,ȱitȱ neverȱ goesȱ awayȱ forȱ anybody.ȱ Soȱ thatȱ whichȱ isȱ insideȱ hereȱ hasȱ tremendousȱimportanceȱandȱnecessity.ȱItȇsȱnotȱmerelyȱtheȱchemistry,ȱbutȱ theȱ chemistryȱ isȱ givenȱ extremelyȱ highȱ valueȱ byȱ theȱ importanceȱ andȱ necessityȱattachedȱ toȱ theȱmeaning.ȱTheyȱgoȱ together,ȱbecauseȱ thereȱareȱ enormousȱchemicalȱeffectsȱgoingȱonȱȬȱneurophysiologicalȱeffectsȱofȱsuchȱ aȱgreatȱshiningȱimage,ȱwhichȱisȱperceivedȱasȱreality,ȱandȱalsoȱtremendousȱ meaningȱwhichȱholdsȱit.ȱTherefore,ȱwhenȱallȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱproperlyȱ itȱreallyȱdisorganizesȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

ThusȱthisȱselfȬimageȱbecomesȱcentral.ȱAndȱeverythingȱbecomesȱarrangedȱ toȱ feedȱandȱ sustainȱ itȱ inȱasȱgoodȱaȱwayȱasȱpossible.ȱWeȱ tryȱ toȱarrangeȱ thoughtsȱthatȱway.ȱWeȱtryȱtoȱgetȱpeopleȱtoȱsupportȱit.ȱWeȱtryȱtoȱproduceȱ situations,ȱsuchȱasȱacquiringȱwealthȱȬȱpeopleȱwillȱmakeȱaȱlotȱofȱmoneyȱtoȱ showȱthatȱtheyȱareȱreallyȱveryȱgreatȱpeople.ȱTheyȱmakeȱfarȱmoreȱmoneyȱ thanȱ theyȱ needȱ forȱwhateverȱ theyȱwantȱ toȱ do.ȱ Theyȱ keepȱ onȱmakingȱ money.ȱAndȱifȱtheȱmereȱmakingȱofȱmoneyȱisnȇtȱenough,ȱthenȱtheyȱbuyȱallȱ sortsȱofȱ thingsȱ Ȭȱ farȱmoreȱ thanȱ theyȱneedȱ Ȭȱ toȱ showȱ thatȱ theyȱareȱgreatȱ people.ȱ

Whyȱdoȱpeopleȱdoȱthis?ȱItȇsȱaccepted,ȱitȇsȱtakenȱforȱgrantedȱthatȱtheyȱwillȱ doȱit.ȱButȱweȱneedȱtoȱlookȱintoȱthis.ȱWhy?ȱWhatȇsȱbehindȱit?ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱaȱprocessȱgoingȱonȱhereȱwhichȱ involvesȱ theȱwholeȱsystem.ȱ Andȱpeopleȱwillȱreinforceȱeachȱotherȱinȱallȱofȱit,ȱbecauseȱpeopleȱgetȱtheirȱ identityȱ fromȱoneȱ anotherȱ Ȭȱ everybodyȱ saysȱ ȇyouȱ areȱ this,ȱyouȱareȱ thatȱ youȱareȱtheȱotherȇ.ȱOrȱelseȱyouȱgetȱyourȱ identityȱbyȱwhatȱyouȱdo,ȱorȱbyȱ thinkingȱofȱwhereȱyouȱcameȱfrom,ȱorȱwhatȱyourȱancestorsȱwere,ȱandȱallȱ

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that.ȱSoȱyouȱgetȱaȱsenseȱofȱ identityȱbuiltȱupȱoutȱofȱ thought,ȱwhichȱsaysȱ ȇthatȇsȱterriblyȱimportantȇ.ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱproveȱthatȱyouȇreȱthere.ȱ

Butȱ thisȱ structureȱ actuallyȱ hasȱ noȱ basisȱ whatsoeverȱ exceptȱ thought,ȱ whichȱ isȱaȱveryȱ flimsyȱbase.ȱAndȱ sinceȱ thatȱ structureȱapparentlyȱ isȱallȬ important,ȱ itȱ wouldȱ beȱ veryȱ importantȱ toȱ proveȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ solidlyȱ grounded.ȱOtherwiseȱ itȱwillȱbeȱratherȱalarmingȱtoȱseeȱthisȱallȬimportantȱ structureȱwithȱnoȱground.ȱ

Q:ȱIȇveȱaskedȱmyselfȱwhoȱIȱam,ȱandȱrealizedȱthatȱIȱamȱseveralȱimagesȱatȱ onceȱ Ȭȱ eachȱ ofȱ myȱ childrenȱ hasȱ aȱ differentȱ imageȱ ofȱ me,ȱ asȱ doȱ myȱ husband,ȱ friendsȱandȱ anyoneȱ else.ȱButȱ Iȱ feelȱ Iȇmȱnotȱ thoseȱ images,ȱ Iȇmȱ somethingȱelse.ȱEvenȱthatȱȇsomethingȱelseȇȱcomesȱintoȱquestion,ȱasȱwhatȱIȱ thinkȱIȱamȱchangesȱfromȱoneȱdayȱtoȱtheȱnext.ȱIȱputȱaȱquestionȱaboutȱmyȱ body,ȱandȱaskedȱwhetherȱIȱwouldȱbeȱlessȱofȱwhoȱIȱthinkȱIȱamȱifȱIȱhadȱoneȱ armȱless,ȱorȱwhatever,ȱthanȱIȱnowȱhave.ȱSoȱIȱdecidedȱIȱamȱnotȱmyȱbody,ȱ thereȱisȱsomethingȱelse,ȱbutȱIȱcanȇtȱexplainȱwhatȱitȱis.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱthatȇsȱtheȱproblem:ȱhowȱareȱweȱgoingȱtoȱfindȱwhatȱweȱare?ȱ Youȱ canȇtȱ existȱwithoutȱyourȱbody,ȱbutȱusuallyȱpeopleȱdonȇtȱ takeȱ itȱallȱ thatȱseriously.ȱTheirȱ identityȱ isȱwhatȱ theyȱcanȱdoȱorȱwhatȱ theyȱhaveȱorȱ whatȱ theirȱrelationsȱare;ȱ thatȇsȱusuallyȱ takenȱasȱmoreȱ important.ȱPeopleȱ willȱallowȱtheirȱbodiesȱtoȱdegenerateȱinȱfavourȱofȱthat.ȱOtherȱpeopleȱmayȱ regardȱ theirȱ bodiesȱ asȱ allȬimportant.ȱ Itȱ canȱ vary.ȱ Youȱ canȱ putȱ yourȱ identityȱ intoȱ almostȱ anythingȱ Ȭȱ intoȱ yourȱ country,ȱ orȱ intoȱ yourȱ bankȱ accountȱorȱintoȱyourȱachievementsȱȬȱintoȱanything.ȱ

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Butȱ theȱwholeȱ thingȱdoesnȇtȱseemȱ toȱhaveȱanyȱground.ȱNow,ȱ ifȱ thisȱselfȱ wereȱ whatȱ itȇsȱ apparentlyȱ supposedȱ toȱ be,ȱ thenȱ itȱ wouldȱ beȱ veryȱ importantȱ toȱgetȱaȱ realȱ solidȱgroundȱ forȱ it.ȱAndȱ thatȇsȱwhyȱweȱ feelȱ theȱ urgeȱtoȱsearchȱforȱthisȱidentity.ȱYetȱpeopleȱareȱnotȱreallyȱthatȱsureȱaboutȱ theirȱ identity.ȱTheȱquestionȱ is:ȱdoȱweȱneedȱanȱ identity?ȱClearlyȱ inȱsomeȱ limitedȱsenseȱweȱdoȱneedȱtoȱknowȱwhoȱweȱareȱȬȱweȱhaveȱidentityȱcards,ȱ weȱhaveȱmemoriesȱandȱneedsȱandȱcertainȱrelationships,ȱandȱallȱtheȱrest.ȱ Weȱkeepȱ thatȱallȱ straight.ȱButȱ isȱ thatȱ identityȱ theȱ supremelyȱ importantȱ thingȱthatȱitȱseemsȱtoȱbe?ȱ

Q:ȱDoesȱtheȱidentityȱdependȱonȱtheȱsystemȱyouȱwereȱtalkingȱabout?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ systemȱ givesȱ youȱ theȱ identity.ȱWithoutȱ theȱ systemȱyouȱwouldȱhaveȱnoȱidentity.ȱTheȱwholeȱsystemȱofȱthoughtȱspreadȱ overȱtheȱworldȱisȱwhatȱgivesȱyouȱyourȱidentity,ȱyourȱplaceȱinȱtheȱworldȱ andȱ soȱ forth.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱ wereȱ noȱ system,ȱ howȱ couldȱ youȱ sustainȱ thatȱ identity?ȱTheȱidentityȱcouldȱonlyȱexistȱsociallyȱandȱculturally.ȱAlthoughȱ weȱmayȱtryȱtoȱidentifyȱourselvesȱwithȱGod,ȱorȱsomethingȱlikeȱthat,ȱthereȱ againȱ itȇsȱ theȱ cultureȱwhichȱ gaveȱ youȱ theȱ thoughtȱ allowingȱ youȱ toȱdoȱ that.ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱkeepȱinȱmind.ȱ

Thereȱ wasȱ anȱ ancientȱ view:ȱ ȇIȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ whatȱ Iȱ am.ȱWhatȱ Iȱ amȱ isȱ unknown,ȱbutȱconstantlyȱ revealingȱ itself.ȇȱThisȱ isȱanotherȱviewȱofȱwhatȱ youȱ are.ȱ Letȇsȱ lookȱ atȱ itȱ forȱ aȱ moment.ȱ ȇIȇȱ amȱ unknown.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱ isȱ somethingȱ whichȱ isȱ infiniteȱ Ȭȱ theȱ universe,ȱ orȱ somethingȱ beyondȱ theȱ

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universeȱ Ȭȱ Iȱamȱ somehowȱgroundedȱ inȱ that.ȱMaybeȱ theȱwholeȱphysicalȱ being,ȱ andȱ probablyȱ evenȱmatter,ȱ isȱ infiniteȱ inȱ itsȱ subtlety.ȱAndȱ thereȱ mayȱbeȱsomethingȱbeyond.ȱTherefore,ȱwhateverȱ Iȱam,ȱ thatȱmustȱbeȱ theȱ sourceȱofȱ it.ȱThatȱ isȱunknownȱ Ȭȱbutȱ itȱ revealsȱ itself.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱneedȱ theȱ notionȱ ofȱ anȱ identity,ȱ ofȱ anȱ allȬimportantȱ identityȱ onȱ toȱwhichȱweȱ areȱ goingȱ toȱhold,ȱbecauseȱ thatȱgetsȱ inȱ theȱwayȱofȱ theȱneedȱ toȱ changeȱourȱ reflexes.ȱOnceȱweȱidentifyȱwithȱsomething,ȱourȱreflexesȱareȱthatȱwayȱȬȱitȇsȱ veryȱ important,ȱ ȇnecessaryȇ.ȱAndȱweȱwillȱwantȱ toȱpreserveȱ thatȱ identityȱ evenȱthoughȱitȱmayȱinvolveȱideasȱthatȱareȱfalse.ȱ

Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ sayingȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ veryȱ importantȱ forȱ usȱ toȱ preserveȱ theȱ particularȱkindȱofȱchemistryȱthatȱweȇreȱusedȱto?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱitȱamountsȱto,ȱimplicitlyȱȬȱthatȱidentityȱwillȱgiveȱusȱaȱ certainȱchemistry.ȱAndȱalsoȱweȱ feelȱ thatȱweȱwantȱ toȱpreserveȱ that.ȱTheȱ wholeȱ bodyȱ getsȱ usedȱ toȱ it.ȱ Theȱ bodyȱ itselfȱ canȱ getȱ usedȱ toȱ aȱ certainȱ chemistry,ȱ andȱdemandsȱ thatȱ thatȱ chemistryȱ beȱpreserved.ȱ Soȱ thoughtȱ willȱtryȱtoȱdoȱthat.ȱButȱinȱaddition,ȱthoughtȱhasȱputȱitȱthatȱthereȱis,ȱmoreȱ abstractly,ȱ anȱ identityȱ thatȱ hasȱ toȱ beȱ preservedȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ isȱ absolutelyȱ necessaryȱ

Q:ȱ Iȇllȱ justȱ seeȱ ifȱ Iȱ canȱ sayȱ itȱ inȱmyȱ ownȱwords.ȱ Theȱ identityȱ liesȱ inȱ abstractions,ȱ whichȱ areȱ images;ȱ andȱ eachȱ oneȱ ofȱ thoseȱ imagesȱ isȱ aȱ continuum,ȱ hasȱ aȱ chemistry.ȱAndȱ thatȱ chemistryȱ inȱ someȱ senseȱ hasȱ aȱ realityȱtoȱit,ȱandȱisȱallȱmovement?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȇsȱallȱmovement.ȱ Itȱ includesȱ chemistryȱandȱpossiblyȱ someȱ materialȱ realityȱ beyondȱ chemistryȱ Ȭȱ theȱ physics,ȱ theȱ electricity,ȱ andȱ beyondȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱSayȱIȱfindȱthisȱoutȱfromȱsomeplace;ȱandȱI,ȱ inȱmyȱabstractions,ȱwouldȱ likeȱ toȱchange.ȱButȱ Iȱdonȇtȱhaveȱanyȱnotionȱ thatȱ itȇsȱnotȱ theȱ imagesȱ thatȱ haveȱtoȱchangeȱȬȱitȇsȱtheȱchemistryȱthatȱhasȱtoȱchange.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱwholeȱ thingȱhasȱ toȱchange.ȱWeȱmayȱchangeȱ theȱ images,ȱbutȱ theȱchemistryȱdoesnȇtȱchangeȱ thatȱway.ȱTheȱwholeȱ thingȱhasȱ toȱchange:ȱ weȱneedȱanȱinsightȱintoȱtheȱwhole.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱtheȱfixednessȱofȱtheȱchemistryȱbeȱtheȱcauseȱofȱdisease?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theȱ fixednessȱ ofȱ theȱ chemistryȱ andȱ theȱ fixednessȱ ofȱ theȱ ideasȱ aroundȱitȱareȱinseparable,ȱbecauseȱifȱyourȱideasȱaboutȱtheȱchemistryȱsayȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ absolutelyȱ necessaryȱ toȱ maintainȱ it,ȱ thenȱ thatȱ helpsȱ fixȱ theȱ chemistry.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱsayȱthatȱtheȱchemistryȱisȱfixedȱindependentlyȱofȱtheȱ ideasȱthatȱtheȱsystemȱasȱaȱwholeȱisȱcarryingȱaboutȱtheȱchemistry.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsȱtheȱneedȱtoȱlabelȱthingsȱandȱpeopleȱandȱtoȱputȱthemȱintoȱlittleȱboxesȱ partȱofȱthisȱholdingȱonȱtoȱimages?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱpartȱofȱ theȱ imageȱ Ȭȱ thatȱweȱputȱpeopleȱ intoȱboxes,ȱasȱyouȱ say.ȱ Andȱ theyȱ mayȱ actuallyȱ haveȱ severalȱ differentȱ boxes;ȱ thereȇsȱ anȱ expressionȱaboutȱwearingȱseveralȱdifferentȱhatsȱȬȱsuchȱasȱwhenȱyouȇreȱatȱ workȱyouȱhaveȱoneȱhatȱandȱwhenȱyouȇreȱatȱhomeȱyouȱhaveȱanotherȱone.ȱ

Soȱtheȱwholeȱprocessȱisȱnotȱcoherent.ȱWhenȱyouȱbeginȱtoȱlookȱatȱit,ȱyouȱ seeȱ thatȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ holdȱ together.ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ ofȱ theȱ image.ȱ AndȱifȱyouȱreallyȱseeȱitȱȬȱifȱyouȱreallyȱdonȇtȱbelieveȱitȱanymoreȱȬȱthenȱyouȱ haveȱtoȱsayȱthatȱmakingȱtheȱimageȱallȬimportantȱisȱnotȱaȱseriousȱoption.ȱ

Itȱmayȱ beȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ stillȱ goingȱ toȱ operate,ȱ itȱ stillȱ hasȱ aȱ largeȱ amountȱ ofȱ chemistryȱthatȱweȱhavenȇtȱgotȱat,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱButȱaȱveryȱcrucialȱstepȱrightȱ hereȱisȱtheȱinsightȱthatȱthisȱwholeȱprocessȱactuallyȱhasȱnoȱmeaning.ȱItȱhasȱ noȱground.ȱ Itȇsȱ trulyȱ theȱmostȱephemeralȱ sortȱofȱ thing.ȱThereȇsȱnothingȱ moreȱephemeralȱthanȱthoughts;ȱandȱyetȱthoughtsȱcanȱholdȱthemselvesȱbyȱ sayingȱ ȇIȱmustȱ remainȱ thisȱwayȱ forever,ȱwithȱ absoluteȱ necessityȇ.ȱ Theȱ pointȱisȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱnotionȱofȱaȱcreativeȱbeing,ȱratherȱthanȱofȱanȱidentifiedȱ being.ȱ

Q:ȱAsȱephemeralȱasȱ thoughtȱmayȱbe,ȱ isȱ thoughtȱnotȱ inȱ factȱ inȱ theȱbrainȱ cellsȱthemselves?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱ inȱ theȱbrainȱcells,ȱbutȱasȱanȱephemeralȱmovementȱ Ȭȱ itȱcomesȱ andȱgoes,ȱitȱmixesȱupȱwithȱtheȱchemistryȱandȱtheȱelectricalȱcurrents,ȱandȱ allȱthat.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱ Ifȱ theȱ identityȱmovementȱ isȱ strongȱ itȱ canȱbeȱ aȱblockȱ toȱ theȱ creativeȱ energy.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ itȱ certainlyȱ blocksȱ it.ȱ Theȱ identityȱmovementȱmayȱ beȱ theȱ majorȱ block.ȱWeȇveȱ beenȱ followingȱ theȱ blocksȱ allȱ along,ȱ andȱ nowȱ thisȱ mayȱbeȱveryȱcloseȱtoȱtheȱsourceȱofȱtheȱmajorȱblockȱȬȱtheȱattemptȱtoȱholdȱ thisȱidentity,ȱwhichȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱreflexȱsystem.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱdonȇtȱthinkȱpeopleȱhaveȱtakenȱtheȱdangerȱofȱidentificationȱseriouslyȱ soȱfar.ȱAtȱthisȱmoment,ȱasȱyouȇreȱmakingȱitȱclear,ȱitȱseemsȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱ realȱdangerȱ inȱhavingȱanȱ identity.ȱTheȱephemeralȱmovementȱofȱ identityȱ canȱblockȱtheȱenergy;ȱitȱcanȱbeȱaȱstrongȱaddiction,ȱbecauseȱitȱgetsȱcloseȱtoȱ theȱpowerȱofȱnecessity.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȱallȱtiesȱup.ȱWeȱcouldȱlookȱatȱthat.ȱTheȱidentityȱhasȱaȱcertainȱ limitedȱsignificance.ȱItȇsȱnotȱthatȱweȱareȱgoingȱtoȱdisposeȱofȱit,ȱbutȱitȱhasȱ noȱfundamentalȱdeepȱeternalȱsignificance.ȱ

Thereȱ isȱeternalȱ flowȱandȱmovementȱ thatȱ isȱcreative.ȱButȱ thisȱcreativityȱ canȱgetȱcaughtȱupȱinȱaȱcertainȱprocess,ȱwhichȱappearsȱtoȱbeȱmechanical.ȱ

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Theȱprocessȱ isnȇtȱ reallyȱmechanical,ȱbecauseȱ itȱ canȱalwaysȱ changeȱwithȱ newȱinsight.ȱIfȱitȱwereȱaȱmachineȱitȱcouldȱneverȱchange.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱitȱisnȇtȱ fullyȱdeeplyȱaȱmachine,ȱbutȱ itȱcanȱbehaveȱsomethingȱ likeȱaȱmachine.ȱSoȱ weȱcanȱrepresentȱthisȱprocessȱasȱmechanical,ȱbutȱonlyȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint.ȱ

Weȇllȱleaveȱitȱatȱthatȱforȱnowȱandȱtakeȱourȱbreak.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇveȱbeenȱdiscussingȱ thisȱ selfȬimageȱ Ȭȱ theȱ selfȱasȱobserverȱandȱ theȱ selfȱasȱobserved.ȱTheyȱ seemȱ toȱbeȱ separateȱbecauseȱ theyȱhaveȱbeenȱ imagedȱthatȱway.ȱTheȱimageȱproducesȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱthatȱseparation.ȱ

Perhaps,ȱifȱyouȱwant,ȱweȇllȱtalkȱaboutȱitȱforȱaȱlittleȱwhile.ȱ

WeȱsaidȱthatȱclearlyȱtheȱhumanȱbeingȱactuallyȱisȱthereȱinȱsomeȱsenseȱȬȱheȱ isȱactual.ȱTheȱquestionȱis:ȱdoesȱtheȱhumanȱbeingȱexistȱwithȱaȱpermanentȱ identity?ȱAnd,ȱifȱthereȱisȱone,ȱwhatȱwouldȱitȱbe?ȱWeȱsaidȱthatȱthisȱnotionȱ ofȱ identityȱ doesnȇtȱ seemȱ toȱ beȱ veryȱ coherent.ȱ Theȱwholeȱ basisȱ isȱ veryȱ ephemeral,ȱinsubstantialȱinȱthought.ȱ

Thenȱthereȱwasȱtheȱsuggestionȱofȱanotherȱwayȱofȱ lookingȱatȱtheȱhumanȱ being.ȱTheȱgroundȱofȱanyȱpersonȱ isȱ reallyȱunknown.ȱ Itȱmightȱbeȱ inȱ theȱ wholeȱ totalityȱ ofȱwhateverȱ isȱ Ȭofȱ allȱmatter,ȱ evenȱ beyondȱmatter.ȱWeȱ ourselvesȱareȱmatterȱwhichȱhasȱcomeȱ togetherȱ fromȱallȱoverȱ theȱworld.ȱ Theȱ carbonȱ inȱ usȱ hasȱ probablyȱ comeȱ fromȱ carbonȱ dioxide,ȱwhichȱ hasȱ beenȱdiffusingȱoverȱtheȱentireȱatmosphere.ȱItȱmayȱhaveȱbeenȱsomewhereȱ onȱtheȱotherȱsideȱofȱtheȱworldȱandȱitȱgotȱintoȱplantsȱandȱintoȱanimals,ȱandȱ soȱforth,ȱandȱthenȱgotȱintoȱus.ȱLikewiseȱwithȱtheȱoxygenȱandȱwater,ȱandȱ soȱon.ȱ Soȱmateriallyȱourȱgroundȱ isȱ reallyȱ inȱ theȱwholeȱuniverse.ȱThus,ȱ youȱcouldȱthenȱfollowȱitȱthroughȱscientificallyȱandȱsayȱthatȱitȱcameȱfromȱ theȱearth,ȱandȱthatȱtheȱearthȱwasȱformedȱfromȱhotȱgasȱwhichȱcameȱfromȱ

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stars,ȱorȱwhatever,ȱandȱthoseȱcameȱfromȱinterplanetaryȱdustȱȬȱonȱandȱon,ȱ backȱ toȱ theȱBigȱBangȱandȱ evenȱbeyond.ȱTherefore,ȱweȱ couldȱ sayȱallȱofȱ thatȱhasȱ conspiredȱ toȱproduceȱusȱ Ȭȱ theȱmaterialȱ structuresȱ thatȱweȱare.ȱ Thus,ȱweȱwouldȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱthatȱinȱsomeȱsenseȱthisȱmatterȱisȱactual.ȱ

Butȱourȱ thoughtsȱaboutȱ itȱareȱnotȱactual.ȱTheyȱareȱrepresentations,ȱ theyȱ containȱforms.ȱTheȱthoughtȱaboutȱtheȱtableȱcontainsȱaȱform.ȱButȱtheȱtableȱ doesnȇtȱactuallyȱendȱtheȱwayȱweȱseeȱitȱȬȱatȱtheȱatomicȱlevelȱitȱwouldȱsortȱ ofȱshadeȱoutȱaȱbit.ȱ

Andȱinȱmodernȱphysics,ȱoneȱofȱtheȱthingsȱtheyȱsayȱisȱthatȱemptyȱspaceȱisȱ fullȱofȱenergy,ȱaȱvastȱamountȱofȱenergy.ȱEachȱwaveȱinȱemptyȱspaceȱhasȱaȱ certainȱminimumȱenergy,ȱevenȱwhenȱitȇsȱempty,ȱandȱifȱyouȱaddȱupȱallȱtheȱ wavesȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱ infinite.ȱButȱ ifȱyouȱaddȱupȱwavesȱdownȱ toȱaȱcertainȱ lengthȱcalledȱtheȱPlanckȱlengthȱ(tenȱtoȱtheȱminusȱthirtyȬthreeȱcentimetresȱ ȬȱaȱveryȱshortȱdistanceȱȬȱbeyondȱwhichȱweȱmightȱexpectȱtheȱpresentȱlawȱ ofȱphysicsȱnotȱtoȱhold)ȱtheȱtotalȱinȱaȱcubicȱcentimetreȱwouldȱbeȱmoreȱthanȱ theȱenergyȱofȱallȱtheȱmatterȱinȱtheȱuniverse.ȱTheȱidea,ȱthen,ȱisȱthatȱspaceȱ isȱmostlyȱfull,ȱandȱthatȱmatterȱisȱaȱsmallȱrippleȱonȱit.ȱYouȱcanȱmakeȱaȱveryȱ strongȱcaseȱforȱthatȱaccordingȱtoȱmodernȱphysics.ȱ

Similarly,ȱ weȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ whateverȱ isȱ behindȱ theȱ mindȱ Ȭtheȱ consciousness,ȱorȱwhateverȱyouȱwantȱtoȱcallȱitȱ—ȱisȱaȱvastȱstream;ȱandȱonȱ theȱsurfaceȱareȱripplesȱwhichȱareȱ thoughtȱThisȱseemsȱ toȱbeȱanȱanalogy.ȱ Evenȱwhenȱweȱtalkȱofȱthingsȱbeingȱȇhereȇ,ȱtheyȱareȱreallyȱsmallȱripplesȱonȱ someȱvastȱenergyȱwhichȱ isȱcirculating.ȱTheȱonlyȱreasonȱthatȱthisȱenergyȱ doesnȇtȱshowȱupȱisȱbecauseȱmatterȱandȱlightȱgoȱrightȱthroughȱitȱwithoutȱ deflecting.ȱ Whatȱ weȱ experienceȱ isȱ emptyȱ space.ȱ Butȱ itȱ mayȱ alsoȱ beȱ regardedȱasȱ theȱ fullnessȱofȱ space,ȱwhichȱ isȱ theȱgroundȱofȱallȱexistence.ȱ Matterȱis,ȱthen,ȱaȱsmallȱvariationȱonȱthisȱground.ȱ

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Weȱnow,ȱhowever,ȱbeginȱtoȱthinkȱofȱtheȱformsȱinȱthought,ȱbyȱwhichȱweȱ tryȱtoȱrepresentȱmatter.ȱThoseȱformsȱareȱmuchȱmoreȱabstractȱthanȱmatter.ȱ Weȱcanȱelaborateȱ thoseȱ formsȱ inȱallȱ sortsȱofȱwaysȱ Ȭȱmakeȱveryȱ realisticȱ lookingȱ pictures,ȱ andȱ soȱ forthȱ Ȭbutȱ theyȱ areȱ notȱ theȱ materialȱ thingsȱ themselves.ȱ Likeȱmaps,ȱ thoseȱ formsȱmayȱ serveȱ asȱ guidesȱ andȱ leadȱ toȱ coherentȱaction,ȱ ifȱ theyȱareȱcorrectȱrepresentations.ȱOtherwiseȱ theyȱ leadȱ toȱincoherenceȱandȱallȱtheȱproblemsȱthatȱcomeȱfromȱthat.ȱ

Thatȇsȱtheȱgeneralȱpicture.ȱTheȱthingsȱwhichȱweȱactuallyȱseeȱareȱthereȱinȱ someȱsense;ȱandȱweȱareȱgoingȱtoȱdiscoverȱinȱourȱrelationȱwithȱthemȱthatȱ weȱwillȱ beȱ coherentȱ ifȱ thereȱ isȱ correctȱ thought.ȱ Butȱ theȱ groundȱ ofȱ theȱ thingȱ isȱ much,ȱ muchȱ deeper.ȱ Atȱ theȱ veryȱ leastȱ it’sȱ inȱ theȱ materialȱ structure,ȱwhichȱ isȱ farȱmoreȱ solidȱ thanȱ theȱ thoughtȱaboutȱ it.ȱAndȱ thenȱ beyondȱ theȱmaterialȱ structureȱ isȱanotherȱ structure,ȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱevenȱ infinitelyȱmoreȱsolidȱthanȱthat,ȱorȱfarȱmoreȱsubstantialȱthanȱthat.ȱ

Now,ȱmaybeȱmindȱisȱanotherȱȇsideȇȱofȱthatȱsameȱthingȱȬthatȱwhichȱweȱcallȱ energyȱonȱoneȱsideȱisȱmindȱonȱtheȱotherȱside.ȱThatȱis,ȱenergyȱisȱpervadedȱ withȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ intelligence,ȱ outȱ ofȱ whichȱ perhapsȱ insightȱ comes,ȱ orȱ deeperȱperceptionsȱofȱtruth.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱsuggestion.ȱ

Thenȱwhatȱaboutȱourselves?ȱWeȱsayȱthatȱourȱgroundȱisȱinȱallȱthat.ȱButȱweȱ haveȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ representationsȱ ofȱ ourselvesȱwhichȱ areȱ reallyȱ ratherȱ superficial.ȱAndȱweȱtryȱtoȱidentifyȱwithȱthem.ȱButȱthenȱonceȱweȱdoȱthat,ȱ weȱ haveȱ thisȱ qualityȱ ofȱ thoughtȱwhichȱ infusesȱ itȱ intoȱ perception.ȱWeȱ apparentlyȱperceiveȱtheȱthingȱweȱareȱrepresentingȱȬȱitȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱthere.ȱ Itȇsȱlikeȱtheȱrainbow;ȱweȱseeȱaȱrainbow,ȱbutȱwhatȱweȱhaveȱisȱdropsȱofȱrainȱ andȱ lightȱ Ȭȱ aȱ process.ȱ Similarly,ȱwhatȱweȱ ȇseeȇȱ isȱ aȱ self;ȱ butȱwhatȱweȱ actuallyȱ haveȱ isȱ aȱ wholeȱ lotȱ ofȱ thoughtsȱ goingȱ onȱ inȱ consciousness.ȱ Againstȱ theȱ backdropȱ ofȱ consciousnessȱweȱ areȱprojectingȱ aȱ self,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱaȱrainbow.ȱIfȱyouȱwalkȱtowardȱtheȱrainbowȱyouȱwillȱneverȱgetȱthere.ȱ

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Theȱ imageȱ ofȱ theȱ tableȱ isȱproducedȱ inȱ theȱ sameȱway,ȱ butȱ ifȱ youȱwalkȱ towardȱtheȱtableȱyouȱwillȱgetȱthereȱandȱtouchȱit.ȱ

Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ ifȱ youȱ tryȱ toȱ touchȱ theȱ self,ȱ itȱ willȱ beȱ theȱ sameȱ difficultyȱasȱtryingȱtoȱtouchȱtheȱrainbow.ȱWeȱhaveȱaȱrepresentationȱofȱtheȱ self,ȱwhichȱisȱreallyȱarisingȱinȱaȱprocess.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱknowȱthisȱprocessȱveryȱ well;ȱ butȱ theȱ attemptȱ toȱ treatȱ theȱ selfȱ asȱ anȱ objectȱ isȱ justȱ notȱ goingȱ toȱ meanȱanything.ȱSoȱinstead,ȱsupposeȱweȱsayȱthatȱthisȱselfȱisȱunknown.ȱItsȱ origin,ȱ itsȱ groundȱ isȱ unknown.ȱ Andȱ itȱ isȱ constantlyȱ revealingȱ itself,ȱ throughȱeachȱpersonȱorȱthroughȱnatureȱorȱthroughȱvariousȱotherȱways.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱselfȱisȱrevealed?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhateverȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱȇyourselfȇ.ȱTheȱbasicȱmeaningȱofȱtheȱwordȱ ȇself,ȱaccordingȱtoȱtheȱdictionary,ȱisȱtheȱȇquintessenceȇȱȬȱtheȱessenceȱofȱtheȱ essence.ȱ Theȱ fifthȱ essence,ȱ itȱwasȱ called.ȱ Thereȱwereȱ fourȱ essencesȱ inȱ ancientȱtimesȱandȱthenȱtheyȱaddedȱaȱfifthȱone,ȱwhichȱwasȱtheȱessenceȱofȱ theȱwholeȱthing.ȱTheȱideaȱisȱthatȱtheȱthingȱȇitselfȇȱmeansȱtheȱveryȱessenceȱ ofȱ it.ȱThusȱwhatȱyouȱmeanȱbyȱtheȱ ȇselfȇȱ isȱyourȱveryȱessence.ȱYouȱsayȱ ȇIȇȱ andȱȇmeȇ,ȱandȱȇmyselfȇȱȬȱȇselfȇȱbeingȱtheȱessenceȱfromȱwhichȱtheȱȇIȇȱandȱȇmeȇȱ haveȱ theirȱ ground.ȱ Butȱ thatȱ useȱ ofȱ languageȱ willȱ giveȱ riseȱ toȱ representations,ȱwhichȱweȱareȱliableȱtoȱmistakeȱforȱactuality.ȱ

Thatȇsȱ allȱ Iȇmȱ saying:ȱwhateverȱ theȱ selfȱ is,ȱ itsȱ essenceȱ isȱ unknownȱ butȱ constantlyȱrevealingȱitself.ȱ

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Oneȱpointȱ isȱtoȱclearȱupȱtheȱthoughtȱthatȱweȱareȱsomethingȱ limitedȱandȱ known.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ weȱ cannotȱ beȱ thatȱ whichȱ isȱ limitedȱ andȱ known.ȱ Nothingȱ canȱ beȱ whatȱ isȱ limitedȱ andȱ known;ȱ thatȱ canȱ atȱ bestȱ beȱ anȱ abstractionȱorȱaȱrepresentation.ȱThisȱactualityȱcannotȱbeȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱitȱhelpȱtoȱlookȱatȱthisȱinȱtermsȱofȱorientationȱdifference?ȱInȱoneȱ sense,ȱwhatȱweȇreȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ isȱ ȇIȇȱ amȱ learned.ȱAllȱ theȱmemory,ȱ theȱ senseȱ ofȱ identificationȱ ofȱ selfȱ atȱ thatȱ level,ȱ isȱ learned.ȱ Aȱ differentȱ orientationȱmightȱbeȱȇIȱamȱlearningȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ youȱ areȱ learning,ȱ yes.ȱHowever,ȱ ifȱ youȇreȱ learningȱ youȱ canȇtȱ knowȱȬȱthatȱyouȱareȱlearningȱimpliesȱtheȱunknown.ȱWeȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱtheȱ unknownȱisȱthereforeȱrevealingȱitselfȱinȱwhatȱyouȱareȱlearning.ȱButȱthereȱ isȱalwaysȱtheȱunknown.ȱInȱotherȱwords,ȱweȱareȱnotȱgoingȱtoȱexhaustȱtheȱ unknownȱ Ȭweȇveȱ saidȱ thatȱ evenȱ inȱ physicsȱ thereȱ isȱ thisȱ pictureȱ ofȱ theȱ almostȱinfiniteȱenergyȱinȱemptyȱspace.ȱSoȱtheȱsuggestionȱisȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱ vastȱunknown.ȱItȱisȱrevealingȱitself.ȱWeȱareȱlearning,ȱifȱyouȱlike;ȱandȱevenȱ ifȱweȇreȱnotȱlearningȱitȱisȱrevealingȱitself.ȱ

Thatȇsȱ theȱgeneralȱnotion.ȱThatȇsȱ theȱcreativeȱviewȱofȱbeing,ȱratherȱ thanȱ theȱideaȱofȱanȱidentityȱofȱbeing.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱisȱrevealingȱitself?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱunknown.ȱTheȱunknownȱgroundȱofȱallȱthatȱis.ȱItȱrevealsȱitselfȱ inȱmanyȱways.ȱThatȱisȱaȱcreativeȱview,ȱaȱcreativeȱnotionȱofȱbeing.ȱThatȇsȱ

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whatȱ weȱ areȱ suggesting,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱ aȱ notionȱ ofȱ identityȱ Ȭȱ whichȱ isȱ limitedȱandȱrepetitive,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Weȱdonȇtȱknow.ȱAndȱ ifȱyouȱonceȱsayȱ ȇIȇȱamȱ thisȱ foreverȇ,ȱ thenȱ itȱsortȱofȱ blocksȱthings.ȱYouȱcouldȱalwaysȱaskȱȇhowȱdoȱyouȱknowȱthatȇsȱwhatȱyouȱ are?ȇ.ȱYouȱmayȱhaveȱbeenȱthatȱway,ȱbutȱthereȱisȱnoȱproofȱthatȱwhateverȱ hasȱbeenȱwillȱalwaysȱbe.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱIȱholdȱupȱmyȱhandȱIȱcouldȱsayȱthisȱisȱtheȱunknownȱrevealingȱitself.ȱ IfȱIȱlookȱatȱyourȱcupȱIȱcanȱlookȱatȱthatȱasȱtheȱunknownȱrevealingȱitself.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱanything.ȱTheȱunknownȱmayȱrevealȱitselfȱinȱaȱsimilarȱwayȱtoȱ whatȱ itȱwasȱbefore.ȱManyȱthingsȱ justȱkeepȱonȱrevealingȱthemselvesȱ inȱaȱ certainȱsimilarȱway,ȱthoughȱunderneathȱitȱisȱeternalȱfluxȱbutȱproducingȱaȱ similarȱ formȱ whichȱ weȱ areȱ representingȱ inȱ ourȱ thought.ȱ Now,ȱ ourȱ thoughtȱ isȱ adequateȱ forȱ representingȱ thoseȱ forms,ȱ andȱ itȱmayȱ hintȱ atȱ whatȇsȱbeneath,ȱbutȱitȱreallyȱcannotȱgetȱholdȱofȱthat.ȱ

Q:ȱIfȱIȱdoȱsomething,ȱsuchȱasȱmakeȱaȱpainting,ȱisȱthatȱalsoȱtheȱunknownȱ revealingȱitself?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱ Itȱcanȱbe,ȱorȱ itȱcouldȱbeȱ fromȱyourȱmemory.ȱHowever,ȱevenȱ theȱ basicȱ actualityȱ ofȱ memoryȱ isȱ theȱ unknown.ȱ Weȱ haveȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ everythingȱ weȱ knowȱ isȱ aȱ form,ȱ whichȱ weȱ sortȱ ofȱ projectȱ ontoȱ theȱ backgroundȱ ofȱ consciousnessȱ Ȭȱ asȱweȱ doȱwithȱ theȱ rainbow.ȱ Itȱ canȱ beȱ projectedȱcorrectlyȱorȱ incorrectly;ȱ itȇsȱnotȱ thatȱeveryȱ formȱ isȱasȱgoodȱasȱ everyȱother.ȱ

Many,ȱmanyȱformsȱcouldȱbeȱprojected.ȱWeȱcouldȱhaveȱdifferentȱculturesȱ andȱ differentȱ viewsȱ ofȱ life,ȱ andȱ all,ȱ whichȱ haveȱ differentȱ degreesȱ ofȱ coherence.ȱTheȱimportantȱpointȱisȱthatȱtheȱoverallȱviewȱisȱinȱtheȱculture,ȱ andȱweȱhaveȱtoȱaskȱhowȱcoherentȱitȱis.ȱYouȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱthingȱisȱdoneȱ notȱ onlyȱ individually,ȱ butȱ evenȱmoreȱ soȱ collectively.ȱ Byȱ sharingȱ ourȱ thoughtȱ andȱ consciousnessȱ weȱ areȱ projectingȱ formsȱ intoȱ everything.ȱ Weȇllȱdiscussȱthatȱthisȱafternoonȱinȱconnectionȱwithȱdialogue.ȱ

Q:ȱWhenȱyouȱsayȱcultureȱ isȱcoherentȱorȱ incoherent,ȱareȱyouȱsayingȱ thatȱ theȱrepresentation,ȱtheȱabstraction,ȱwillȱeitherȱbeȱcoherentȱorȱincoherent?ȱ Butȱtheȱsubstanceȱ itselfȱ Ȭȱtheȱframeȱandȱtheȱcanvasȱofȱtheȱpainting,ȱasȱ itȱ wereȱȬȱisȱalwaysȱcoherent.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱtheȱmaterialȱstructureȱisȱalwaysȱcoherent,ȱthoughȱitȱmayȱnotȱ beȱwhatȱweȱthinkȱitȱis.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱincoherenceȱcanȱonlyȱlieȱinȱrepresentations?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱInȱtheȱformsȱofȱrepresentations.ȱAndȱinȱtheȱactionsȱtoȱwhichȱthoseȱ formsȱlead.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthereȱnothingȱthatȇsȱlimitedȱandȱknown,ȱexceptȱthroughȱlookingȱatȱitȱ wrongly?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThoughtȱalwaysȱprovidesȱlimitsȱwhichȱhaveȱrelativeȱvalidity.ȱ

Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ twoȱ possibilities.ȱ Oneȱ isȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ everythingȱisȱlimited,ȱandȱknowledgeȱcouldȱȇgetȇȱitȱall.ȱAndȱtheȱotherȱisȱtoȱ sayȱthatȱknowledgeȱcannotȱgetȱ itȱall.ȱPeopleȱareȱtryingȱtoȱfindȱoutȱwhatȱ theȱ ultimateȱ knowledgeȱ is.ȱ Scientistsȱ thoughtȱ theyȱ hadȱ itȱ inȱ theȱ nineteenthȱcentury.ȱAndȱthenȱtheyȱsaidȱȇno,ȱitȇsȱnotȱsoȇ.ȱTodayȱthereȱisȱnoȱ signȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtheȱfinalȱtheoryȱyet,ȱalthoughȱpeopleȱareȱtalkingȱaboutȱ theȱ ȇtheoryȱofȱ everythingȇ,ȱwhichȱ theyȱhopeȱ toȱget.ȱButȱyouȱ couldȱ say,ȱ firstȱofȱall,ȱ thatȱanyȱknowledgeȱweȇveȱeverȱhadȱhasȱbeenȱ limited.ȱNowȱ thatȱdoesnȇtȱproveȱanything,ȱbutȱitȱmakesȱoneȱquestion.ȱ

SupposeȱevenȱthatȱphysicistsȱhadȱfinallyȱfoundȱtheȱtheoryȱofȱeverythingȱȬȱ theȱultimate,ȱ finalȱparticles,ȱwhichȱweȇllȱcallȱ theȱ ȇultimonsȇ.ȱAndȱ thenȱ itȱ wouldȱjustȱgoȱonȱcenturyȱafterȱcentury.ȱTheyȱwouldȱcalculateȱinȱtermsȱofȱ theȱultimonsȱandȱeverythingȱwouldȱworkȱout.ȱButȱthereȱwouldȱstillȱbeȱnoȱ proofȱthatȱmaybeȱinȱtheȱnextȱminuteȱorȱnextȱhourȱorȱdayȱorȱcenturyȱtheyȱ wouldnȇtȱdiscoverȱaȱlimitȱtoȱitȱall,ȱandȱitȱwouldnȇtȱwork.ȱ

Inȱotherȱwords,ȱthereȱisȱnoȱwayȱtoȱknowȱthatȱyouȇveȱgotȱit.ȱSoȱitȇsȱaȱpoorȱ strategyȱtoȱassumeȱit,ȱbecauseȱifȱyouȱassumeȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱtheȱultimateȱ thenȱyouȱwonȇtȱ lookȱforȱanythingȱelse,ȱandȱthereforeȱ itȱwillȱtendȱtoȱtrapȱ you.ȱYouȱhaveȱnoȱwayȱofȱknowingȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱtheȱultimate.ȱYouȱmayȱ

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sayȱsomethingȱlikeȱȇGodȱtoldȱmeȇ,ȱbutȱthenȱpeopleȱcouldȱsayȱȇhowȱdoȱyouȱ knowȱthat?ȇ.ȱYouȱcanȇtȱeverȱgetȱabsoluteȱassuranceȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱultimateȱ knowledge,ȱnoȱmatterȱhowȱconvincedȱyouȱareȱofȱit.ȱTheȱbestȱyouȱcanȱsayȱ isȱȇasȱfarȱasȱIȱcanȱsee,ȱthatȇsȱtheȱwayȱitȱisȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱ theȱ searchȱ forȱ theȱultimateȱ inȱ termsȱofȱknowledgeȱmightȱbeȱaȱ mistakeȱinȱitself.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȱmayȱ beȱ aȱ veryȱ seriousȱmistakeȱ Ȭȱpartȱ ofȱ theȱ flawȱ inȱ theȱ systemȱ weȇreȱ talkingȱ about.ȱWeȱ haveȱ toȱ beȱ open.ȱ Youȱ canȱ seeȱ howȱ importantȱ itȱ is.ȱ Ifȱultimateȱknowledgeȱwereȱpossibleȱ aboutȱ theȱ atomȱ itȱ wouldȱimplyȱthatȱitȱmightȱbeȱpossibleȱaboutȱourȱidentity,ȱbecauseȱweȇreȱ madeȱofȱatoms.ȱManyȱscientistsȱareȱworkingȱonȱthatȱassumptionȱȬȱsayingȱ thatȱ weȱ willȱ haveȱ itȱ all,ȱ thatȱ artificialȱ intelligenceȱ willȱ reproduceȱ everything,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱIȱthinkȱthatȱthatȱisȱanȱincoherentȱ procedure.ȱ

Q:ȱ Howȱ wouldȱ youȱ differentiateȱ betweenȱ theȱ searchȱ forȱ ultimateȱ knowledgeȱandȱtheȱsearchȱforȱsomethingȱultimateȱbeyondȱknowledge?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Youȱ canȇtȱ searchȱ forȱ it,ȱ becauseȱ theȱ veryȱwordȱ ȇsearchȇȱ impliesȱ tryingȱtoȱgetȱholdȱofȱit.ȱIȱthinkȱweȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱonlyȱthat,ȱasȱfarȱasȱthoughtȱ isȱ concerned,ȱ weȱ needȱ toȱ leaveȱ openȱ theȱ possibilityȱ thatȱ somethingȱ beyondȱ knowledgeȱ isȱ possible,ȱ andȱ indeedȱ veryȱ plausible.ȱ Firstȱ ofȱ all,ȱ weȇveȱsaidȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱevidenceȱ thatȱknowledgeȱcannotȱ

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beȱ complete.ȱAndȱ second,ȱ thereȱ hasȱ toȱ beȱ somethingȱ beyond;ȱ butȱweȱ haveȱnoȱproof.ȱThenȱweȱaskȱ ȇisȱ itȱpossibleȱ toȱsomehowȱcomeȱ inȱcontactȱ withȱ thatȱ inȱsomeȱotherȱway?ȇ.ȱMaybeȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱpossibleȱandȱmaybeȱ not.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ theȱmovingȱ forceȱ theȱ sameȱ forȱ theȱ searchȱ forȱultimateȱknowledgeȱ andȱtheȱbeyond?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱwouldnȇtȱ thinkȱ so.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ theȱ searchȱ forȱ ultimateȱ knowledgeȱ wouldȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱaȱsearchȱforȱsecurity.ȱButȱweȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱthatȱwhatȱ isȱ beyondȱȬȱwhichȱisȱtheȱunknownȱȬcannotȱmeaningfullyȱbeȱsought.ȱIfȱyouȱ wouldȱreallyȱseeȱthat,ȱ itȱmayȱbeȱthatȱ itȱwouldȱgiveȱsecurity.ȱButȱatȱ leastȱ theȱwayȱweȱpictureȱit,ȱtheȱunknownȱdoesnȇtȱlookȱveryȱsecure.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱwayȱweȱpictureȱitȱfromȱthisȱviewpoint.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱMaybeȱwhenȱyouȱareȱthat,ȱthenȱitȱmayȱbeȱsecure.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsuggestingȱknowledgeȱisnȇtȱtheȱbarometerȱofȱknowing?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWeȱknowȱ thatȱ already,ȱbecauseȱknowledgeȱ isȱ alwaysȱ subjectȱ toȱ testȱforȱincoherence,ȱwhichȱmustȱgetȱbeyondȱknowing.ȱYouȱcannotȱknowȱ allȱtheȱtestsȱforȱincoherence.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱthereȱisȱsomeȱotherȱsensitivityȱinȱknowing,ȱotherȱthanȱknowingȱ beingȱknowledgeȬbased?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱknowingȱisȱaȱprocessȱbasedȱonȱtheȱunknown.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱwonderȱ ifȱweȱ couldȱ lookȱatȱ theȱ relationshipȱbetweenȱ thisȱultimateȱ selfȬimageȱandȱtheȱsearchȱforȱtheȱultimateȱknowing,ȱandȱhowȱthatȱrelatesȱ toȱwhatȱweȱwereȱ talkingȱaboutȱbeforeȱ Ȭtheȱwordȱcreatingȱ theȱsensation,ȱ andȱsoȱforth?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ youȱ assume,ȱ asȱ theȱ cultureȱ generallyȱ does,ȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ anȱ ultimateȱknowledge,ȱ thenȱ thatȱwillȱbeȱperceivedȱasȱsomethingȱwhichȱ isȱ thereȱ asȱ aȱ possibility.ȱ Thereforeȱ yourȱ intentions,ȱ yourȱ impulse,ȱ yourȱ motivationȱwillȱbeȱtowardȱit,ȱbecauseȱifȱthereȱisȱsuchȱultimateȱknowledgeȱ itȱwouldȱbeȱ theȱ rightȱ thingȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱgetȱ it.ȱNow,ȱ ifȱ thereȱ isnȇt,ȱyouȱwillȱ say:ȱȇThatȇsȱdeadȱtoȱme.ȱIȱhaveȱnoȱinterestȱinȱthat.ȇȱ

Q:ȱ Universalȱ ȇtruthsȇȱ orȱ ȇideasȇȱ seemȱ toȱ runȱ acrossȱ allȱ countriesȱ andȱ culturesȱ Ȭȱ forȱ instance,ȱ theȱTenȱCommandmentsȱorȱ theȱGoldenȱRule.ȱ Isȱ

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thatȱ likeȱ aȱ reflection,ȱ orȱ isȱ thatȱ justȱ aȱ selfȬimageȱ thatȇsȱprojectedȱ byȱ allȱ peopleȱonȱtheȱplanet?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThereȱmayȱhaveȱbeenȱanȱinsightȱthatȱpeopleȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱrelatedȱinȱ aȱcertainȱwayȱinȱorderȱforȱsocietyȱtoȱworkȱandȱforȱanythingȱtoȱhaveȱanyȱ meaningȱȬȱanȱinsightȱthatȱyouȱcanȇtȱtreatȱpeopleȱtotallyȱimmorally;ȱthatȱifȱ youȱdoȱsoȱitȱwillȱallȱcomeȱbackȱtoȱyou,ȱitȱwonȇtȱwork,ȱitȇsȱincoherent.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱthatȱbeȱaȱprojectedȱselfȬimage?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo,ȱIȱthinkȱtheȱoriginalȱinsightȱwasȱbeyondȱthat,ȱbutȱthenȱthoughtȱ takesȱholdȱofȱ itȱandȱturnsȱ itȱ intoȱtheȱsystemȱandȱprojectsȱtheȱselfȬimage.ȱ Inȱotherȱwords,ȱeverythingȱcanȱbeȱturnedȱintoȱthisȱmill.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱweȱ stayȱopenȬended,ȱwithoutȱhavingȱ expectationsȱofȱ acquiringȱ knowledgeȱorȱresults,ȱandȱletȱthingsȱflowȱandȱjustȱȇletȱitȱbeȇ?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ thatȇsȱaȱquestionȱweȇreȱ raising.ȱTheȱonlyȱanswerȱwouldȱbeȱ whetherȱweȱdoȱitȱorȱdonȇt.ȱWeȱcanȇtȱreallyȱanswerȱthisȱfromȱknowledge.ȱIfȱ itȱisȱunknownȱandȱitȱcanȇtȱbeȱansweredȱfromȱknowledge,ȱitȱseemsȱtoȱcallȱ forȱ somethingȱ else,ȱwhichȱweȇveȱ beenȱ callingȱ ȇperceptionȱ ofȱ truthȇȱ orȱ ȇinsightȇ.ȱ Andȱ weȱ haveȱ beenȱ goingȱ intoȱ variousȱ kindsȱ ofȱ thoughts,ȱ

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lookingȱatȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱareȱgettingȱ inȱ theȱwayȱofȱ thisȱandȱwhichȱareȱ partȱofȱourȱculture.ȱ

Perhapsȱweȱallȱareȱhavingȱsomeȱinsightȱintoȱthisȱatȱsomeȱlevel,ȱthatȱitȱhasȱ someȱeffect.ȱButȱ itȱwillȱ requireȱaȱ lotȱofȱworkȱ toȱgetȱactuallyȱ intoȱallȱ theȱ chemistryȱwhichȱholdsȱtheȱoldȱway.ȱ

Thatȇsȱ theȱpointȱ Iȱwouldȱ likeȱ toȱmake.ȱNow,ȱ ifȱyouȱdonȇtȱwantȱ toȱcallȱ itȱ ȇinsightȇȱyouȱ couldȱ callȱ itȱ ȇperceptionȱofȱ truthȇ.ȱAndȱweȱ couldȱ raiseȱ theȱ questionȱ ofȱwhatȱ isȱ truth.ȱOurȱ cultureȱ hasȱ similarlyȱproducedȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ confusionȱaroundȱthat,ȱwhichȱmakesȱitȱhardȱtoȱgetȱintoȱit.ȱ

Oneȱ theoryȱofȱ truthȱ isȱ thatȱ trueȱ ideasȱcorrespondȱ toȱreality,ȱsuchȱasȱ theȱ trueȱ ideaȱofȱ theȱ tableȱwouldȱ correspondȱ toȱ theȱ realityȱofȱ theȱ table.ȱButȱ weȇveȱjustȱseenȱthatȱthisȱcanȇtȱbeȱbecauseȱeveryȱideaȱisȱaȱrepresentationȱȬȱ anȱ abstractionȱwhichȱ leavesȱ outȱmostȱ ofȱ theȱ reality.ȱ Itȇsȱ hardȱ toȱ knowȱ whatȱ itȱcorrespondsȱ to.ȱForȱexample,ȱ ifȱaȱmapȱ isȱaȱcorrectȱmap,ȱdoesȱ itȱ correspondȱ toȱanythingȱ inȱ theȱcountry?ȱOnȱ theȱmapȱareȱ linesȱandȱdotsȱ representingȱcities,ȱroads,ȱriversȱandȱboundaries.ȱThoseȱlinesȱonȱtheȱmapȱ areȱabstractions.ȱTheyȱareȱnotȱactuallyȱlinesȱanywayȱȬȱifȱyouȱlookȱatȱthemȱ carefullyȱyouȱcanȱseeȱ theyȱareȱ littleȱdots,ȱprintedȱdotsȱofȱ ink,ȱallȱstrungȱ nearȱ eachȱ other.ȱAnd,ȱ similarly,ȱ theȱ linesȱ betweenȱ theȱ countriesȱ donȇtȱ existȱ either.ȱ Theyȇveȱ beenȱ imaginedȱ byȱ people.ȱ Aȱ fenceȱ orȱ wallȱmayȱ eventuallyȱbeȱputȱup,ȱbutȱitȱwasȱputȱupȱbyȱpeopleȱwhoȱthoughtȱthereȱwasȱ aȱlineȱthere.ȱThusȱthereȱisȱaȱcorrespondenceȱbetweenȱoneȱabstractionȱandȱ another,ȱwhichȱ guidesȱ you.ȱ Butȱ itȇsȱ aȱ correspondenceȱ ofȱ form,ȱ certainȱ abstractȱforms,ȱbutȱnotȱtoȱrealityȱtheȱrealityȱitselfȱescapesȱyou.ȱEveryȱoneȱ ofȱthoseȱthingsȱwhichȱcorrespondsȱinȱthatȱwayȱdoesnȇtȱstandȱbyȱitselfȱasȱ reality.ȱ

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Thereȱmayȱbeȱaȱcorrespondenceȱofȱ thatȱkind,ȱwhichȱ isȱpartȱofȱaȱcorrectȱ idea.ȱ Andȱ aȱ correctȱ ideaȱ willȱ notȱ onlyȱ leadȱ toȱ thatȱ kindȱ ofȱ correspondence,ȱbutȱalsoȱtoȱcoherentȱaction.ȱButȱIȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱsayȱthatȱ truthȱ isȱ somethingȱ more.ȱ Anȱ ideaȱ mayȱ beȱ correctȱ orȱ incorrectȱ orȱ somewhereȱ inȱ between;ȱ butȱ truthȱ isȱ somethingȱ deeper.ȱ Weȱ shouldȱ reserveȱtheȱwordȱȇtruthȇȱforȱsomethingȱmuchȱdeeper.ȱ

Theȱ rootȱ ofȱ theȱ wordȱ ȇtrueȇȱ inȱ Englishȱ meansȱ ȇstraightȇ,ȱ ȇhonestȇȱ andȱ ȇfaithfulȇȱ Ȭȱ likeȱ ȇaȱtrueȱ lineȇ.ȱAndȱ inȱLatin,ȱtheȱwordȱverusȱ isȱaȱrootȱwordȱ whichȱmeansȱ ȇthatȱwhichȱ isȇ.ȱSoȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱ thatȱaȱ roughȱ ideaȱofȱ theȱ meaningȱ ofȱ theȱwordȱ ȇtruthȇȱwouldȱ beȱ ȇstraight,ȱ honestȱ andȱ faithfulȱ toȱ thatȱwhichȱ isȇ.ȱ Butȱ thereȱwillȱ beȱ noȱ truthȱ unlessȱ theȱmindȱ isȱ straight,ȱ honestȱandȱfaithful;ȱunlessȱitȱdoesnȇtȱengageȱinȱselfȬdeception;ȱunlessȱtheȱ chemistryȱallowsȱit.ȱForȱtruthȱtoȱariseȱthereȱmustȱbeȱaȱcertainȱsituationȱinȱ theȱbrain.ȱ

Q:ȱInȱtheȱGreekȱlanguageȱtheȱwordȱforȱtruthȱisȱalethia,ȱwhichȱmeansȱȇoutȱ ofȱlethargyȇ,ȱȇoutȱofȱsleepȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱȇOutȱofȱsleepȇ,ȱyes.ȱYouȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱawake,ȱalertȱforȱtruth.ȱInȱotherȱ words,ȱ itȱ requiresȱwhatȱweȱmayȱ callȱ aȱ certainȱ ȇstateȱofȱmindȇ;ȱ really,ȱ aȱ stateȱofȱ theȱmaterialȱsystemȱasȱwell.ȱWhatȱgenerallyȱhappensȱwhenȱ theȱ wholeȱsystemȱ isȱ tooȱ jangledȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ filledȱwithȱallȱsortsȱofȱchemicalȱ effectsȱofȱ thisȱ incoherentȱ thought,ȱwhichȱ interfereȱwithȱperceptionȱ andȱ putȱyouȱtoȱsleep,ȱandȱsoȱforth.ȱYouȱcouldȱsayȱtheȱbrainȱisȱfilledȱwithȱwhatȱ

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Iȱ callȱ ȇelectrochemicalȱ smogȇ.ȱAndȱwhenȱ thatȱ isȱpresentȱweȱdonȇtȱ haveȱ truth.ȱ

Iȱ thinkȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱanȱabstractȱ truthȱ Ȭȱ somewhere,ȱ somehow,ȱ sittingȱthereȱwaitingȱforȱusȱgetȱholdȱofȱitȱȬȱisȱagainȱtheȱsameȱasȱtheȱideaȱofȱ theȱultimateȱknowledge.ȱTruthȱisȱsomethingȱmoreȱvital.ȱItȱhasȱtoȱbeȱthatȱ sortȱ ofȱmovementȱwhichȱ doesnȇtȱ deceiveȱ itself.ȱAndȱ thenȱ itȱ hasȱ toȱ fit,ȱ cohereȱwithȱ ȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ.ȱTruthȱisȱaȱperception,ȱandȱisȱsimultaneouslyȱ anȱaction.ȱTheȱactionȱofȱtruthȱwouldȱclearȱupȱtheȱelectrochemicalȱsmog.ȱItȱ clearsȱupȱtheȱsmog,ȱasȱitȱwere,ȱsoȱthatȱyouȱseeȱmoreȱclearly.ȱAndȱalsoȱtheȱ systemȱisnȇtȱbeingȱpoisoned,ȱandȱwhatnot.ȱSoȱthatȇsȱpartȱofȱtruth.ȱTruthȱisȱ notȱmerelyȱinformationȱaboutȱȇwhatȱisȇ.ȱButȱratherȱtruthȱisȱaȱkeyȱfactorȱinȱ ȇwhatȱisȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱdoesȱtruthȱrelateȱtoȱtheȱunknownȱselfȱrevealingȱitself?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱ sourceȱofȱ truthȱmustȱbeȱ likeȱ theȱ sourceȱofȱ insightȱ Ȭȱbeyondȱ whatȱ thoughtȱ canȱ grasp.ȱ Andȱ truthȱ comesȱ andȱ touchesȱ theȱ physicalȱ chemicalȱ stateȱ ofȱ theȱ brain,ȱ asȱ wellȱ asȱ producingȱ theȱ wordsȱ whichȱ communicateȱitȱtoȱthought.ȱ

Truthȱisȱnotȱjustȱfloatingȱoutȱthereȱabstractly,ȱbutȱtruthȱactuallyȱis.ȱThatȱisȱ toȱsay,ȱtruthȱisȱaȱfactorȱinȱactuality.ȱTruthȱmeetsȱȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ;ȱitȱtouchesȱ ȇthatȱwhichȱisȇȱinȱaȱcoherentȱwayȱwhenȱitȱtouchesȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱonȱinȱtheȱ

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brain,ȱandȱclearsȱupȱsomeȱofȱit.ȱAndȱthenȱfromȱthereȱon,ȱthatȱperceptionȱ ofȱtruthȱgivesȱriseȱtoȱthoughtȱwhichȱcanȱalsoȱactȱinȱaȱmoreȱcoherentȱway.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȇreȱnotȱseparatingȱtheȱtruthȱfromȱȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ,ȱareȱyou?ȱ

Bohm:ȱNo,ȱtruthȱisȱaȱpartȱofȱȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ.ȱTruthȱisȱaȱmovement,ȱorȱact,ȱ withinȱȇthatȱwhichȱisȇ.ȱItȱactuallyȱis.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱyouȱsayȱthatȱtruthȱisȱtheȱaction,ȱandȱhasȱitsȱownȱactuality?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱTruthȱhasȱitsȱownȱactuality.ȱ

Q:ȱTruthȱ livedȱwouldȱbeȱ lifeȱwithoutȱ reflexȱ then?ȱWouldȱweȱbeȱ livingȱ withoutȱtheȱreflex?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Truthȱ isȱ notȱ aȱ reflex.ȱ Itȱ isȱ aȱ creativeȱ perception.ȱWeȱ needȱ theȱ reflex,ȱbutȱnotȱtoȱbeȱdominatedȱbyȱtheȱreflex.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱanȱinsightȱshowȱtheȱtruthȱofȱhowȱtheȱsystemȱworks?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱIȇllȱputȱitȱlikeȱthis:ȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱtruth,ȱwhichȱmayȱbeȱinȱaȱflashȱ ofȱinsight,ȱactuallyȱchangesȱtheȱsystemȱtoȱmakeȱitȱmoreȱcoherent.ȱAndȱatȱ theȱsameȱtime,ȱitȱproducesȱtheȱwords,ȱorȱwhatever,ȱwhichȱcommunicateȱaȱ newȱfoundationȱforȱthought.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱthatȱimplyȱthatȱweȱneedȱcoherenceȱtoȱtouchȱtheȱtruth?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱbrainȱhasȱtoȱquietȱdown.ȱThisȱincoherenceȱisȱtheȱsourceȱofȱtheȱ electrochemicalȱ smog.ȱOurȱ civilizationȱ hasȱ filledȱ theȱ airȱwithȱ chemicalȱ smog,ȱandȱtheȱ lungsȱareȱnotȱ inȱconditionȱtoȱbreathȱproperlyȱsometimes.ȱ Similarly,ȱtheȱbrainȱisȱnotȱinȱaȱconditionȱtoȱrespondȱtoȱtruth.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱdoesȱitȱrespondȱtoȱtruthȱthen?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Inȱ thisȱ smog,ȱ itȱdoesnȇt;ȱorȱ itȱ respondsȱ inȱaȱ confusedȱway.ȱAndȱ thereforeȱitȇsȱnotȱtruth.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱtruthȱwithinȱtheȱrealmȱofȱdescription?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱNo.ȱWeȇreȱmerelyȱ tryingȱ toȱgiveȱ theȱwordsȱwhichȱwouldȱsortȱofȱ pointȱ there.ȱ Butȱ itȇsȱ anȱ actuality.ȱ Itȱ cannotȱ beȱ described,ȱ butȱ itȱ isȱ anȱ actualityȱ whichȱ acts.ȱ Theȱ perceptionȱ ofȱ truthȱ isȱ anȱ actualȱ actȱ whichȱ changesȱthings;ȱitȇsȱnotȱmerelyȱthatȱitȱisȱtheȱtruthȱaboutȱsomethingȱwhichȱ isȱdifferent.ȱ

Thereȱisȱalsoȱtheȱtruthȱofȱtheȱfalse.ȱTheȱtruthȱofȱtheȱfalseȱisȱnotȱonlyȱthatȱitȱ isȱ false;ȱ butȱ inȱ theȱ caseȱ ofȱ theȱ electrochemicalȱ smog,ȱ forȱ instance,ȱ theȱ truthȱofȱ theȱ falseȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱaȱmaterialȱprocess.ȱUltimately,ȱunderlyingȱ theȱfalseȱisȱtheȱtruth.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱtheȱfalseȱliesȱonlyȱinȱabstraction.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theȱ falseȱ arisesȱ throughȱ inappropriateȱ abstraction,ȱ ofȱ aȱ kindȱ whichȱleadsȱtoȱitsȱownȱdefence.ȱ

Q:ȱAbsoluteȱtruthȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱaffectedȱbyȱtime.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱtruthȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱtime.ȱItȱwouldȱnotȱevenȱhappenȱ inȱtime.ȱ Letȇsȱ sayȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ actionȱ ofȱ truthȱ isȱ toȱ actȱ onȱ thisȱ smog,ȱ onȱ theȱ

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synapses,ȱ toȱremoveȱ theȱ incoherence.ȱ Ifȱ itȱ takesȱ timeȱ itȱwonȇtȱbeȱableȱ toȱ doȱ that,ȱ becauseȱ ȇthatȱwhichȱ isȇȱ isȱ changingȱ allȱ theȱ time.ȱAndȱ theȱ trueȱ perceptionȱofȱoneȱmomentȱwouldȱnotȱnecessarilyȱholdȱforȱtheȱnext.ȱ

Q:ȱ Thenȱ truthȱ isȱ revealedȱ inȱ theȱ absenceȱ ofȱ thought.ȱMightȱ itȱ notȱ beȱ synonymousȱwithȱbeautyȱandȱjoy?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȱmightȱbeȱmoreȱorȱlessȱtheȱsameȱarea.ȱ

Q:ȱAlongȱthoseȱlines,ȱaȱgreatȱworkȱofȱart,ȱofȱwhateverȱgenre,ȱdoesnȇtȱjustȱ haveȱaȱcorrectȱ representationȱofȱ thatȱwhichȱ itȱ isȱ representing,ȱbutȱ thereȱ seemsȱtoȱbeȱsomethingȱmore.ȱIsȱthatȱtruth?ȱ

Bohm:ȱInȱsomeȱway,ȱyes.ȱSomethingȱlikeȱit.ȱThereȱwasȱsomethingȱmoreȱȬȱ perceptionȱȬȱwhichȱgoesȱbeyondȱmerelyȱrepresentingȱthings.ȱThoughȱtheȱ representationȱmayȱ beȱ there,ȱ itȇsȱmoreȱ thanȱ thatȱ Perhapsȱ thereȱwasȱ aȱ perceptionȱofȱtruthȱwhenȱtheȱartistȱwasȱpaintingȱit,ȱorȱdoingȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱAndȱthatȱwouldȱbeȱpartȱofȱtheȱreasonȱwhyȱaȱveryȱrepressiveȱkindȱofȱ totalitarianȱsystemȱwouldȱtryȱtoȱrestrictȱandȱcontrolȱart.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱTheyȱwouldȱnotȱonlyȱcontrolȱandȱrestrictȱart,ȱbutȱalmostȱanything.ȱ Theyȱ controlȱ andȱ restrictȱ science,ȱ forȱ example,ȱ toȱwhateverȱ areasȱ theyȱ thinkȱappropriate.ȱTheyȱuseȱartȱjustȱasȱtheyȱuseȱscience.ȱ

Iȱthinkȱperceptionȱofȱtruthȱwouldȱonlyȱbeȱpossibleȱwithȱfreedom.ȱSoȱweȱ needȱtoȱbringȱ inȱtheȱquestionȱofȱfreedom,ȱforȱwhichȱweȱdonȇtȱhaveȱtimeȱ now.ȱButȱtruthȱandȱfreedomȱmustȱbeȱessentiallyȱoneȱfield.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱIsȱtruthȱsimilarȱtoȱfinalȱknowledge?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱwouldnȇtȱ beȱ knowledgeȱ though.ȱ Truthȱ actsȱ fromȱmomentȱ toȱ moment,ȱ isȱwhatȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱsay.ȱTruthȱ isȱ theȱactionȱ fromȱmomentȱ toȱ moment.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ itȱ plainȱ whyȱ Einsteinȱ heldȱ imaginationȱ toȱ beȱ soȱ superiorȱ toȱ knowledge?ȱ Heȱ saidȱ somethingȱ likeȱ ȇImaginationȱ hasȱ beenȱ infinitelyȱ moreȱofȱserviceȱtoȱhumankindȱthanȱisȱknowledgeȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱitȇsȱtheȱcreativeȱimaginationȱthenȱthatȇsȱright,ȱbecauseȱthatȱleadsȱ toȱnewȱperceptionȱandȱtoȱnewȱaction.ȱ

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Q:ȱButȱsinceȱourȱcultureȱrepressesȱ thatȱcreativeȱ imaginationȱ inȱbothȱ theȱ artsȱandȱsciencesȱweȇreȱinȱaȱdoubleȱbindȱhere.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ thatȇsȱwhyȱweȱ areȱ goingȱ toȱdiscussȱ theȱ cultureȱ Iȇllȱ justȱ layȱ someȱ foundationȱ now;ȱ thenȱ theȱ firstȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ afternoonȱ weȱ couldȱ discussȱ cultureȱ andȱ dialogue,ȱ andȱ goȱ onȱ toȱ theȱ otherȱ questionsȱ ofȱ observerȱandȱobserved,ȱtimeȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Weȱhaveȱbroughtȱupȱtheȱquestionȱofȱtheȱsocietyȱandȱtheȱcultureȱwhichȱisȱ suppressingȱ allȱ theseȱ things,ȱ creatingȱ allȱ thisȱ smog.ȱTheȱ troubleȱ isȱ notȱ primarilyȱ originatingȱ inȱ theȱ individual,ȱ norȱ isȱ theȱ individualȱ ableȱ toȱ handleȱ itȱ entirelyȱ byȱ himself.ȱ Theȱ individualȱ changeȱ hasȱ tremendousȱ importance;ȱ butȱ evenȱ ifȱ heȱ didȱ change,ȱ theȱ changeȱ wouldȱ stillȱ haveȱ limitedȱmeaning.ȱWeȱwouldȱ stillȱ haveȱ thisȱwholeȱ cultureȱ carryingȱ onȱ withȱ theȱ smog.ȱTherefore,ȱunlessȱ theȱwholeȱ cultureȱ isȱ changedȱ itȇsȱnotȱ goingȱ toȱ haveȱ allȱ thatȱ deepȱ aȱ meaning.ȱ Fundamentally,ȱ theȱ wholeȱ questionȱofȱ identity,ȱselfȬimage,ȱrepression,ȱassumptionsȱandȱallȱ that,ȱ isȱ risingȱinȱtheȱculture,ȱwhichȱisȱsharedȱmeaning.ȱWeȱshareȱallȱthat;ȱitȱcomesȱ in.ȱWeȱmayȱrejectȱsomeȱofȱitȱandȱacceptȱsomeȱofȱit,ȱbutȱevenȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱ doȱ thatȱ isȱ partȱ ofȱ theȱ culture.ȱ Thatȇsȱ allȱ theȱ system.ȱ Andȱ theȱ cultureȱ underliesȱtheȱsystem.ȱ

Iȱ suggestȱ thatȱweȇllȱ beginȱ theȱ afternoon,ȱ ifȱweȱmay,ȱ byȱ discussingȱ theȱ cultureȱandȱhowȱdialogueȱcanȱbeȱaȱwayȱtoȱstartȱtoȱ inquireȱ intoȱhowȱtheȱ cultureȱ isȱoperatingȱ inȱ thisȱ fieldȱ thatȱweȇveȱbeenȱ talkingȱabout.ȱ Itȇsȱnotȱ

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enoughȱtoȱseeȱallȱthisȱhappeningȱinȱourselvesȱbecauseȱmostȱofȱitȱhappensȱ betweenȱus.ȱ

Q:ȱIȱhadȱaȱthoughtȱaȱmomentȱagoȱwhenȱyouȱwereȱtalkingȱaboutȱtruthȱandȱ insight.ȱThereȇsȱaȱthingȱinȱmathematicsȱcalledȱȇfactorialȇ,ȱwhichȱcalculatesȱ howȱmanyȱwaysȱyouȱcanȱcombineȱthings.ȱIfȱyouȱhaveȱthreeȱobjects,ȱthenȱ thereȇsȱoneȱtimesȱtwoȱtimesȱthree,ȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱsixȱcombinations.ȱTheȱ factorialȱofȱtenȱ isȱoverȱthreeȱmillion.ȱTheȱbrainȱhasȱaboutȱtwentyȱbillionȱ neurons,ȱandȱifȱyouȱfactorializedȱtwentyȱbillionȱitȱwouldȱbeȱaȱnumberȱforȱ allȱ intentsȱandȱpurposesȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱ infinite.ȱ Ifȱ theȱbrainȱ isȱ inȱ thatȱ stateȱ ofȱ silenceȱ whereȱ yourȱ conditioningȱ andȱ yourȱ thinkingȱ areȱ notȱ operating,ȱ thenȱmightȱ thereȱbeȱanȱ infinityȱorȱnonȬlimitedȱqualityȱaboutȱ theȱ brain?ȱ Isȱ itȱ inȱ thatȱ stateȱ thatȱ theȱ brainȱmayȱ beȱ inȱ communionȱ orȱ touchedȱbyȱtheȱtrueȱnatureȱofȱtruthȱandȱinsight?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ifȱ theȱ brainȱ reallyȱ isȱ notȱ conditionedȱ deeplyȱ andȱ allȱ theseȱ combinationsȱareȱfreeȱtoȱmoveȱaround,ȱthenȱitȱcanȱrespondȱinȱanȱinfinityȱ ofȱ waysȱ andȱ moveȱ inȱ relationȱ toȱ truth.ȱ Shallȱ weȱ finishȱ now?

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SUNDAYȱAFTERNOONȱ ȱ

Bohm:ȱAtȱ theȱ endȱofȱ theȱmorningȱ sessionȱweȱwereȱ sayingȱ thatȱ allȱ thisȱ thoughtȱȬȱthisȱwholeȱsystemȱȬȱisȱevenȱmoreȱsocialȱandȱculturalȱthanȱitȱisȱ individual.ȱAndȱitȱisȱnecessaryȱtoȱgoȱintoȱthatȱinȱorderȱtoȱseeȱtheȱwholeȱofȱ it,ȱtoȱseeȱtheȱessentialȱfeaturesȱofȱit.ȱTheȱwayȱweȱareȱproposingȱtoȱdoȱthatȱ isȱbyȱdialogue.ȱTheȱwordȱȇdialogueȇȱhasȱtheȱrootȱȇdialogosȇ.ȱInȱGreekȱȇdiaȇȱ meansȱ ȇthroughȇȱandȱ ȇlogosȇȱmeansȱ ȇtheȱwordȇȱorȱ ȇtheȱmeaningȇ.ȱWeȱmayȱ pictureȱmeaningȱ flowingȱ betweenȱpeople.ȱ ȇDiaȇȱdoesnȇtȱmeanȱ ȇtwoȇȱ butȱ ȇthroughȇ.ȱTherefore,ȱmanyȱpeopleȱ canȱparticipateȱ Ȭȱ itȱ isȱbetweenȱusȱorȱ amongȱus.ȱ

Oneȱviewȱofȱrelationshipȱwouldȱbeȱtoȱ lookȱatȱ twoȱpeopleȱasȱtwoȱpointsȱ connectedȱ byȱ aȱ dottedȱ lineȱ showingȱ theirȱ relationshipȱ asȱ aȱ secondaryȱ feature.ȱAnotherȱviewȱisȱaȱsolidȱlineȱwithȱaȱpointȱatȱeachȱendȱȬȱwhichȱisȱtoȱ sayȱthatȱtheȱrelationshipȱisȱtheȱmainȱthingȱandȱtheȱpeopleȱareȱatȱtheȱends,ȱ areȱ theȱ extremesȱ ofȱ it.ȱAndȱ inȱ theȱdialogueȱweȱmightȱperhapsȱ beȱ thatȱ way.ȱ

Justȱ asȱ thoughtȱ separatesȱ theȱ selfȱ intoȱ theȱ subjectȱ andȱ object,ȱ intoȱ theȱ observerȱ andȱ theȱ observedȱ Ȭȱ whichȱ isȱ allȱ oneȱ processȱ Ȭȱ soȱ thoughtȱ separatesȱpeople.ȱButȱwhenȱpeopleȱareȱreallyȱinȱcommunication,ȱinȱsomeȱ senseȱaȱonenessȱarisesȱbetweenȱthemȱasȱmuchȱasȱinsideȱtheȱperson.ȱ

Ofȱ course,ȱ ȇdialogueȇȱ hasȱ notȱ beenȱ commonlyȱ usedȱ inȱ thatȱ sense.ȱ Forȱ example,ȱ peopleȱ talkȱ aboutȱ dialoguesȱ inȱ theȱUnitedȱNations;ȱ theyȱ sayȱ thingsȱlikeȱȇweȱnegotiateȇ.ȱHowever,ȱnegotiationȱisȱonlyȱtheȱbeginning.ȱIfȱ

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peopleȱdonȇtȱevenȱknowȱhowȱ toȱgetȱ startedȱ theyȱmayȱ tradeȱoffȱvariousȱ pointsȱtryingȱtoȱfindȱoutȱatȱleastȱhowȱtoȱproceed;ȱbutȱifȱyouȱmerelyȱtradeȱ offȱpointsȱandȱnegotiateȱthenȱthatȱdoesnȇtȱgetȱveryȱfar.ȱ

TheȱviewȱofȱtheȱdialogueȱwhichȱIȱamȱsuggestingȱgoesȱveryȱmuchȱfurtherȱ thanȱthat.ȱIȱreadȱmanyȱmanyȱyearsȱagoȱofȱanȱanthropologistȱwhoȱvisitedȱ aȱNorthȱAmericanȱIndianȱtribeȱofȱhunterȬgatherers.ȱTheyȱwouldȱmeetȱinȱ aȱcircleȱofȱaboutȱthirtyȱorȱfortyȱpeople,ȱandȱtheyȱwouldȱtalkȱdirectlyȱwithȱ eachȱother.ȱApparentlyȱthereȱwasȱnoȱparticularȱauthority,ȱthoughȱitȱmayȱ beȱ thatȱ theȱ olderȱ peopleȱ wereȱ moreȱ listenedȱ toȱ becauseȱ theyȱ wereȱ supposedȱ toȱ beȱwiser.ȱ Theyȱ talkedȱwithȱ noȱ agenda,ȱ noȱ purpose;ȱ theyȱ madeȱnoȱdecisionsȱandȱtheyȱendedȱtheȱcircleȱforȱnoȱapparentȱreason.ȱAndȱ afterȱ thatȱ theyȱ apparentlyȱ understoodȱ eachȱ otherȱwellȱ enoughȱ soȱ thatȱ theyȱknewȱwhatȱ toȱdo.ȱThatȱwasȱ theirȱwayȱofȱ life;ȱ theyȱmetȱagainȱandȱ again,ȱinȱsortȱofȱaȱsustainedȱway.ȱ

Itȱseemedȱtoȱmeȱatȱthatȱtimeȱthatȱthisȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱrightȱwayȱtoȱlive.ȱButȱ inȱmodemȱcivilization,ȱorȱevenȱinȱolderȱones,ȱweȱdonȇtȱappearȱtoȱbeȱableȱ toȱdoȱso.ȱPeopleȱseemȱ toȱrequireȱanȱauthorityȱorȱhierarchy,ȱorȱelseȱ theyȱ makeȱ determinateȱ decisions.ȱ Theyȱ donȇtȱ quiteȱ understandȱ eachȱ otherȱ whenȱ theyȱ areȱ talking,ȱ soȱ theyȱ never,ȱ really,ȱ canȱmaintainȱ thisȱ sortȱ ofȱ thing.ȱ

Butȱ itȱ isȱbecomingȱmoreȱandȱmoreȱurgentȱthatȱpeopleȱshouldȱbeȱableȱtoȱ talkȱ together,ȱbecauseȱ technologyȱ isȱmakingȱ itȱdangerousȱ ifȱweȱ cannot.ȱ Theȱpointȱ is:ȱwhatȱdoesȱ itȱmeanȱ toȱ beȱ ableȱ toȱ reallyȱ communicate,ȱ forȱ peopleȱtoȱtryȱtoȱtalkȱtogether?ȱ

Supposeȱ weȱ putȱ aboutȱ fourȱ orȱ fiveȱ peopleȱ together.ȱ Thatȱ isȱ quiteȱ aȱ differentȱsituationȱfromȱhavingȱtwentyȱorȱthirtyȱpeopleȱtogether,ȱfourȱorȱ fiveȱpeopleȱcanȱgetȱtoȱknowȱeachȱotherȱandȱadjust;ȱtheyȱcanȱsortȱofȱavoidȱ

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allȱ theȱ difficultȱ questions.ȱ Inȱ aȱwayȱ theyȱmayȱ beȱ reproducingȱ aȱmoreȱ familyȬtypeȱsituation;ȱsomebodyȱmayȱtakeȱonȱtheȱauthorityȱorȱleadershipȱ ifȱ theyȱwantȱ toȱdoȱ something.ȱButȱwithȱ thirtyȱorȱ fortyȱpeople,ȱorȱ evenȱ twenty,ȱ thenȱ aȱnewȱ thingȱ comesȱ in:ȱ thereȱareȱmanyȱdifferentȱpointsȱofȱ view,ȱandȱyouȱgetȱsomethingȱmoreȱlikeȱaȱculturalȱsituationȱofȱaȱsociety.ȱ

Inȱ societyȱ weȱ haveȱ aȱ culture.ȱ Iȱ sayȱ aȱ cultureȱ isȱ basicallyȱ aȱ sharedȱ meaning.ȱWithoutȱthatȱsharedȱmeaningȱsocietyȱwillȱfallȱapart;ȱitȇsȱaȱkindȱ ofȱcementȱthatȱholdsȱsocietyȱtogether.ȱIfȱpeopleȱwantȱtoȱgetȱtogetherȱtoȱdoȱ anythingȱthingsȱmustȱmeanȱtheȱsameȱtoȱthemȱorȱtheyȱcanȇtȱdoȱit.ȱItȱwouldȱ beȱatȱcrossȱpurposesȱ ifȱeverythingȱhadȱaȱdifferentȱmeaningȱforȱdifferentȱ people.ȱ

However,ȱ inȱ ourȱ societyȱ thereȱ areȱmanyȱ subculturesȱ inȱwhichȱ thingsȱ meanȱ somethingȱ veryȱ differentȱ Ȭȱ ethnicȱ subcultures,ȱ religiousȱ andȱ economicȱsubcultures,ȱeducatedȱprofessions,ȱpeopleȱinȱdifferentȱgroupsȱȬȱ thousandsȱofȱdifferentȱdivisions.ȱAndȱifȱpeopleȱtryȱtoȱgetȱtogether,ȱfromȱ thoseȱ groupsȱ orȱ evenȱ withinȱ oneȱ ofȱ thoseȱ groups,ȱ theyȱ mayȱ haveȱ somebodyȱwhoȱ runsȱ theȱ thingȱ andȱ thenȱ theyȱ canȱ tryȱ toȱdoȱwhatȱ theyȱ want.ȱ Butȱ ifȱ theyȱ wereȱ givenȱ aȱ leaderless,ȱ agendalessȱ groupȱ theyȱ probablyȱwouldȱfeelȱveryȱanxiousȱandȱnotȱknowȱwhatȱtoȱdo.ȱEvenȱifȱtheyȱ wentȱthroughȱthatȱanxiety,ȱtheyȱwouldȱfindȱsoonerȱorȱ laterȱthatȱtheyȱallȱ hadȱdifferentȱviewsȱandȱopinionsȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ theyȱwereȱnotȱ communicating,ȱ andȱeachȱoneȱwasȱdoingȱthingsȱwhichȱwereȱirritatingȱtheȱothers,ȱmakingȱ theȱothersȱangry.ȱEachȱoneȱwouldȱhaveȱaȱwayȱofȱthinkingȱwhichȱwouldȱ makeȱ theȱ othersȱ feelȱ veryȱ uncomfortableȱ orȱ exasperated.ȱ Theyȱ startȱ blamingȱ eachȱ otherȱ forȱ allȱ theseȱ things,ȱ asȱ Iȇveȱ seenȱ happen,ȱ andȱ theȱ wholeȱthingȱdegenerates.ȱTheyȱjustȱfallȱapart;ȱtheyȱsayȱȇwhatȇsȱtheȱuse?ȇ.ȱ

Inȱfact,ȱthatȱkindȱofȱdifficultyȱarisesȱwheneverȱpeopleȱtryȱtoȱgetȱtogetherȱ forȱ aȱ commonȱ purpose,ȱwhetherȱ inȱ theȱ governmentȱ orȱ inȱ businessȱ orȱ

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wherever.ȱYouȱ findȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ theȱkindȱofȱ thingȱ thatȱ isȱgoingȱon.ȱForȱ instance,ȱtheȱlegislatorsȱreallyȱdonȇtȱgetȱtogetherȱinȱCongressȱtoȱcomeȱtoȱaȱ commonȱmeaning;ȱtheyȱjustȱtradeȱoffȱcertainȱpointsȱinȱorderȱtoȱpassȱbills.ȱ Inȱcontrast,ȱIȱunderstandȱthatȱwhenȱtheȱConstitutionȱofȱtheȱUnitedȱStatesȱ wasȱwritten,ȱtheȱwritersȱspentȱaȱlongȱtimeȱworkingȱtogetherȱonȱitȱinȱtheȱ sameȱplace.ȱTheyȱhammeredȱitȱallȱoutȱsoȱthatȱtheyȱwouldȱallȱagreeȱonȱtheȱ Constitution,ȱwhichȱwasȱaȱ relativelyȱunifiedȱdocumentȱ Ȭȱ thoughȱ itȱhadȱ certainȱproblemsȱinȱitȱwhichȱwereȱnotȱunified,ȱsuchȱasȱthoseȱwhichȱledȱtoȱ theȱCivilȱWar,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Now,ȱ thatȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱ introductionȱ toȱ theȱ conceptȱofȱdialogue.ȱAndȱ forȱ merelyȱpracticalȱpurposesȱweȱwouldȱneedȱdialogue.ȱButȱ inȱ additionȱ itȱ hasȱaȱmuchȱdeeperȱsignificance,ȱwhichȱweȱwillȱgoȱintoȱlater.ȱ

Ifȱ youȱwentȱ throughȱ thisȱprocess,ȱ though,ȱ youȱwouldȱ findȱdifficulties.ȱ Firstȱofȱall,ȱsomeȱpeopleȱbecomeȱdominant.ȱTheyȱtalkȱeasilyȱandȱrunȱtheȱ show.ȱ Othersȱ keepȱ quiet,ȱ perhapsȱ becauseȱ theyȱ areȱ afraidȱ ofȱmakingȱ foolsȱofȱ themselves;ȱbutȱ theyȱ feelȱ somewhatȱ resentfulȱofȱ thoseȱwhoȱareȱ dominant,ȱ andȱ thatȱwouldȱ alsoȱ splitȱ theȱ group.ȱ Someȱ peopleȱ actȱ outȱ roles,ȱandȱotherȱpeopleȱfindȱthisȱveryȱirritating.ȱAllȱsortsȱofȱthingsȱwouldȱ beȱhappening.ȱTheseȱareȱallȱproblemsȱwhichȱwillȱariseȱwhenȱaȱgroupȱtriesȱ toȱgetȱtogether,ȱbutȱtheyȱareȱstillȱonȱtheȱsurface.ȱ

Supposeȱweȱgotȱthroughȱallȱthat.ȱThenȱcomeȱmoreȱdifficultȱthings.ȱPeopleȱ haveȱ differentȱ basicȱ assumptionsȱ aboutȱ theȱ importantȱ thingsȱ inȱ lifeȱ Ȭȱ assumptionsȱasȱ toȱwhatȱ isȱreallyȱnecessary,ȱwhatȱ isȱreallyȱ true,ȱ theȱwayȱ peopleȱoughtȱtoȱbe,ȱwhatȱourȱrealȱpurposeȱoughtȱtoȱbe,ȱandȱallȱthat.ȱAndȱ asȱweȇveȱseen,ȱtheseȱassumptionsȱareȱinȱtheȱformȱofȱreflexes.ȱPeopleȱdonȇtȱ quiteȱknowȱ theyȱhaveȱ them.ȱButȱwhenȱ theȱassumptionsȱareȱchallenged,ȱ suddenlyȱaȱpersonȱmayȱ jumpȱupȱwithȱanȱemotionalȱcharge.ȱAndȱthenȱitȱ

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goesȱ backȱ andȱ forth;ȱ theȱwholeȱ groupȱ canȱ polarizeȱ betweenȱ twoȱ suchȱ assumptions.ȱ

Weȱ onceȱ triedȱ toȱ holdȱ aȱ dialogueȱ inȱ theȱ earlyȱ periodȱ inȱ Israel,ȱ andȱ somebodyȱ saidȱ veryȱ quietlyȱ andȱ innocentlyȱ thatȱ theȱ troubleȱ betweenȱ JewsȱandȱArabsȱisȱZionismȱȬȱtheȱmainȱtroubleȱisȱthatȱZionismȱkeepsȱthemȱ apart.ȱThenȱsuddenlyȱsomebodyȱelseȱroseȱupȱwithȱhisȱeyesȱpoppingȱout,ȱ andȱ saidȱ thatȱwithoutȱZionismȱ theȱ Stateȱwouldȱ fallȱ toȱpieces.ȱ Soȱ thereȱ wereȱtwoȱdifferentȱassumptions:ȱoneȱwasȱthatȱitȱwasȱreallyȱnecessaryȱtoȱ dropȱthisȱideaȱofȱZionism,ȱandȱtheȱotherȱwasȱthatȱwithoutȱitȱIsraelȱwouldȱ beȱimpossible.ȱBothȱwereȱcorrectȱinȱaȱway,ȱbutȱthereȱwasȱnoȱwayȱtoȱbringȱ themȱtogether.ȱ

Suchȱ assumptionsȱ generateȱ tremendousȱ power.ȱ Theyȇreȱ reallyȱ assumptionsȱofȱnecessity.ȱAndȱwhatȱcanȱhappenȱinȱsuchȱcasesȱisȱthatȱaȱlotȱ ofȱ peopleȱ areȱ thenȱ drawnȱ inȱwhoȱwerenȇtȱ before.ȱ Inȱ thisȱ instanceȱ theȱ thingȱbecameȱveryȱheatedȱ–ȱ fullȱofȱ thisȱelectrochemicalȱ smogȱ Ȭȱandȱ theȱ peopleȱwhoȱhadnȇtȱatȱfirstȱbeenȱworriedȱaboutȱitȱwereȱallȱdrawnȱin.ȱButȱaȱ fewȱwereȱ ableȱ toȱ deflectȱ itȱ aȱ bit,ȱ soȱ itȱ didnȇtȱ goȱ tooȱ far.ȱ Itȱ didnȇtȱ getȱ resolved;ȱaȱdialogueȱwouldȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱsustainedȱaȱlongȱtimeȱtoȱresolveȱaȱ thingȱlikeȱthat.ȱHowever,ȱitȱdidȱreachȱtheȱpointȱwhereȱtheȱpeopleȱcouldȱatȱ leastȱtalkȱtoȱeachȱother.ȱTheȱfellowȱdidnȇtȱwalkȱout,ȱandȱtheyȱwereȱableȱtoȱ listenȱtoȱsomeȱextentȱtoȱthoseȱtwoȱopposingȱassumptionsȱorȱopinions.ȱ

Thisȱmayȱseemȱaȱsmallȱpoint,ȱbutȱ itȇsȱreallyȱcrucial.ȱTheȱworldȱ isȱ fullȱofȱ differentȱ assumptionsȱ ofȱ thatȱ kindȱ —ȱ suchȱ asȱ theȱ onesȱ betweenȱ capitalismȱ andȱ communismȱwhich,ȱ untilȱ recently,ȱ dividedȱ theȱworld.ȱ Eachȱcountryȱhasȱassumptionsȱofȱitsȱsovereignty.ȱAndȱitsȱneighbourȱhasȱ aȱcontraryȱassumptionȱthatȱitȱisȱrightȱandȱitȱisȱsovereign,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱTheseȱ areȱassumptionsȱallȱtheȱwayȱthrough:ȱ ȇwhoȇsȱtheȱbossȇ,ȱ ȇIȇmȱtheȱoneȱwhoȱ runsȱitȇ.ȱButȱsomebodyȱelseȱwantsȱtoȱrunȱit:ȱȇIȱwouldȱbeȱbetterȱableȱtoȱdoȱ

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it.ȇȱThereȱareȱsoȱmanyȱassumptions,ȱandȱtheyȱareȱveryȱpowerful.ȱTheyȱareȱ assumptionsȱofȱnecessity.ȱAllȱtheȱliteratureȱandȱtheȱdramasȱinȱtheȱcultureȱ containȱthem;ȱtheyȱareȱinȱthereȱimplicitly.ȱTheȱGreekȱdramasȱwereȱfullȱofȱ thoseȱ assumptionsȱofȱnecessity,ȱwhichȱ createdȱ theȱ tragedies.ȱTheȱhero,ȱ whoȱ wasȱ reallyȱ aȱ veryȱ fineȱ person,ȱ veryȱ consistentlyȱ stuckȱ toȱ hisȱ assumptionsȱ ofȱ necessityȱ andȱ thusȱ destroyedȱ himselfȱ andȱ everybodyȱ aroundȱhim.ȱ

Andȱthisȱisȱallȱcollective.ȱItȇsȱnotȱjustȱanȱindividualȱthing.ȱ

Thereȱareȱwholeȱgroupsȱwhoȱstickȱtogetherȱbecauseȱofȱthis.ȱ

Weȱpickȱupȱ theseȱassumptionsȱ fromȱ theȱculture.ȱ ȇCultureȇȱhasȱ theȱsameȱ rootȱ asȱ ȇcultivateȇ;ȱ weȱ sortȱ ofȱ cultivateȱ itȱ inȱ someȱ way.ȱ Theȱ cultureȱ containsȱallȱtheseȱmeaningsȱofȱwhatȱisȱnecessary;ȱweȱhaveȱallȱthat.ȱ

Now,ȱwithȱanyȱgroupȱofȱpeopleȱȬȱincludingȱthisȱone,ȱifȱweȱwereȱtoȱstickȱatȱ itȱandȱmeet,ȱsay,ȱonceȱaȱweekȱ forȱanȱ indefiniteȱperiod;ȱnotȱ forever,ȱbutȱ indefinitelyȱ Ȭȱ inȱ theȱ beginningȱ youȱwouldȱ beȱ polite,ȱ youȱwouldȱ findȱ variousȱ topicsȱ toȱ talkȱonȱaboutȱwhichȱyouȱcouldȱagree.ȱAsȱanȱexample,ȱ thereȱwasȱoneȱgroupȱwhereȱthereȱwereȱsomeȱliberalȱleftȬwingersȱonȱoneȱ sideȱandȱ conservativesȱonȱ theȱother.ȱTheyȱ foundȱaȱ lotȱofȱ thingsȱ toȱ talkȱ aboutȱwhichȱhadȱnothingȱ toȱdoȱwithȱ theirȱpolitics.ȱThenȱgraduallyȱ theyȱ ranȱoutȱofȱthoseȱthings,ȱandȱsomehowȱtheyȱbeganȱtoȱhaveȱtoȱtalkȱaboutȱ theȱthingsȱonȱwhichȱtheyȱdidnȇtȱagree.ȱAndȱthenȱitȱwasnȇtȱsoȱeasy.ȱ

Soonerȱorȱ later,ȱ inȱ thisȱgroupȱorȱ inȱanyȱgroup,ȱ theseȱ typesȱofȱproblemsȱ wouldȱarise.ȱAndȱifȱweȱcanȇtȱfaceȱthemȱthenȱweȱcanȇtȱworkȱtogether.ȱButȱ supposeȱ youȱ haveȱ toȱworkȱ together.ȱ Iȇllȱ giveȱ aȱ typicalȱproblemȱwhichȱ someȱ ofȱ usȱ haveȱ beenȱ thinkingȱ aboutȱ recently.ȱ Theȱ directorsȱ orȱ theȱ executiveȱofficersȱofȱ companiesȱneedȱ toȱworkȱ togetherȱ inȱ aȱgroupȱ andȱ alsoȱ withȱ theȱ restȱ ofȱ theȱ company.ȱ Butȱ eachȱ personȱ hasȱ aȱ differentȱ

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assumption,ȱwhichȱ isȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ reflex,ȱ andȱ heȱdoesnȇtȱ knowȱheȱhasȱ it.ȱ Thus,ȱpeopleȱmayȱbeȱimplicitlyȱfollowingȱdifferentȱpoliciesȱandȱthereforeȱ goingȱ offȱ inȱ differentȱ directions.ȱ Althoughȱ theyȇreȱ supposedȱ toȱ beȱ workingȱtogether,ȱtheyȱareȱreallyȱresistingȱeachȱother.ȱ

Theȱ sameȱ isȱ trueȱ inȱ theȱgovernment.ȱClearlyȱ theȱgovernmentȱ isȱ fullȱofȱ peopleȱresistingȱoneȱanother.ȱTheyȇreȱcancellingȱeachȱotherȇsȱeffortsȱandȱ confusingȱtheȱwholeȱthing.ȱAndȱinȱeveryȱorganizationȱyouȱwillȱfindȱthat.ȱ Evenȱifȱyouȱsetȱupȱaȱchiefȱonȱtop,ȱtheȱothersȱhaveȱtheirȱownȱopinionsȱandȱ theyȱwonȇtȱnecessarilyȱfollowȱtheȱdirectivesȱfromȱtheȱtop.ȱTheyȱmayȱseemȱ toȱ followȱ them,ȱ butȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ resistanceȱ underneath.ȱ Theyȱ areȱ notȱ followingȱhim,ȱandȱheȱcanȇtȱgetȱhisȱpoliciesȱcarriedȱoutȱ

Soȱweȱneedȱanȱeffortȱtoȱtalk.ȱWhatȱcanȱweȱdoȱwithȱthis?ȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱ thereȱisȱaȱwayȱȬȱwhichȱmeansȱdialogue.ȱ

Itȇsȱ reallyȱ theȱ sameȱ problemȱwithȱ theȱ individual.ȱWeȇveȱ saidȱ thatȱ theȱ individualȱ hasȱ contraryȱ intentionsȱ insideȱ ofȱ him,ȱ contraryȱ reflexes.ȱ Supposeȱ somebodyȱ isȱ angryȱ andȱ heȱwantsȱ notȱ toȱ be.ȱHeȱ says;ȱ ȇBeingȱ angryȱisȱterrible.ȱItȇsȱgoingȱtoȱdestroyȱwhatȱIȇmȱdoing,ȱbutȱIȇmȱstillȱangry.ȇȱ Onȱoneȱhandȱheȱhasȱtheȱintentionȱtoȱremainȱangryȱandȱonȱtheȱotherȱhandȱ heȱhasȱ theȱ intentionȱ toȱstopȱbeingȱangry.ȱTheȱ twoȱ intentionsȱmayȱbeȱ inȱ theȱsameȱpersonȱorȱ inȱdifferentȱpeople,ȱbutȱ itȱoperatesȱthatȱway.ȱAndȱ ifȱ youȱsetȱupȱaȱgroup,ȱitȱworksȱmuchȱtheȱsame.ȱ

Whenȱweȱtalkedȱaboutȱtheȱindividualȱweȱsaidȱthatȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱstayȱwithȱ thisȱconflict,ȱyouȱdonȇtȱescapeȱit.ȱYouȱstayȱwithȱit,ȱyouȱevenȱbringȱitȱout.ȱ Andȱ youȱ beginȱ toȱ getȱ someȱ insight,ȱ youȱ beginȱ toȱ seeȱ howȱ thoughtȱ isȱ producingȱ conflict.ȱAsȱanȱ individualȱyouȱneedȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱ stayingȱwithȱ this,ȱ doingȱ this,ȱ isȱmoreȱ importantȱ thanȱ anyȱ particularȱ issueȱ youȱ areȱ

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tryingȱtoȱresolve.ȱInȱotherȱwords,ȱ ifȱyouȱcanȱdoȱthisȱyouȱhaveȱgoneȱtoȱaȱ deeperȱlevelȱbeyondȱtheȱissuesȱthatȱareȱdisturbingȱyou.ȱ

Theȱsameȱisȱtrueȱinȱtheȱgroupȱ—ȱweȱstayȱwithȱthisȱconflictȱofȱintentions,ȱ reflexes,ȱassumptions.ȱEveryȱassumptionȱisȱimplicitlyȱaȱreflexȱandȱaȱsetȱofȱ intentions.ȱAndȱjustȱasȱhappensȱwithȱtheȱindividual,ȱsoȱitȱmovesȱoutȱintoȱ theȱgroup.ȱEachȱpersonȱisȱaffectedȱbyȱtheȱotherȱpeopleȇsȱthoughts,ȱsoȱthatȱ theȱreflexesȱofȱoneȱpersonȱbecomeȱtheȱreflexesȱofȱtheȱother.ȱIfȱoneȱpersonȱ isȱangry,ȱtheȱotherȱisȱangry.ȱItȱallȱspreads.ȱ

Q:ȱDoȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ findȱ aȱ broaderȱ commonȱ assumptionȱ ofȱ necessity,ȱ aȱ deeperȱone?ȱWhenȱyouȱsayȱthatȱaboutȱtheȱindividual,ȱIȱcouldȱseeȱwhereȱIȱ haveȱaȱnecessityȱorȱanȱintentionȱtoȱunderstandȱtheȱprocess.ȱThatȱnecessityȱ mayȱbeȱstrongerȱthanȱtheȱnecessityȱofȱmovingȱawayȱfromȱmyȱanger.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ ifȱ youȱ reallyȱ seeȱ it.ȱToȱ seeȱ this,ȱ though,ȱ youȱmustȱ seeȱ theȱ meaningȱofȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱon,ȱtheȱdeeperȱmeaning.ȱHowever,ȱitȇsȱnotȱlikelyȱ thatȱyouȱwillȱseeȱthisȱonȱtheȱbasisȱofȱtheȱconditioningȱweȱhaveȱinȱsociety.ȱ Butȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ goȱ intoȱ it,ȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱdeeperȱmeaningȱ ofȱ thisȱ wholeȱsituation.ȱWhatȱIȱwantȱtoȱemphasizeȱhereȱisȱthatȱtheȱdialogueȱdoesȱ notȱproceedȱfromȱimposingȱaȱpurposeȱorȱanȱintention.ȱIfȱweȱjustȱsaidȱȇletȇsȱ allȱ decideȱ toȱ doȱ thisȇ,ȱwhateverȱweȱmightȱ chooseȱ toȱ doȱwouldȱ beȱ anȱ impositionȱȬȱitȱwouldȱreallyȱbeȱmoreȱconflict.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱpeopleȱhaveȱtoȱcomeȱtogetherȱalreadyȱhavingȱthatȱintention?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱNo.ȱmaybeȱ itȱcanȱdevelopȱasȱweȱcommunicate.ȱTheȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱ weȱwonȇtȱ startȱwithȱ aȱdialogueȱ rightȱ away,ȱ asȱweȇreȱ notȱ startingȱ rightȱ now.ȱWeȱ startȱ byȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ dialogue.ȱWeȱ areȱ notȱ pretendingȱ thatȱ weȇreȱ havingȱ aȱ dialogue.ȱ Rather,ȱ justȱ asȱweȇreȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ allȱ theseȱ otherȱthings,ȱweȱstartȱtalkingȱaboutȱdialogue.ȱWeȱareȱseeingȱtheȱmeaning.ȱ Justȱasȱweȱsawȱ theȱmeaningȱofȱ theȱwholeȱ thoughtȱprocessȱandȱhowȱ itȇsȱ goingȱwrong,ȱweȱalsoȱseeȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱthisȱsituationȱcollectively.ȱ

Letȇsȱlookȱatȱthisȱquestionȱofȱmeaning.ȱTheȱdictionaryȱgivesȱthreeȱsensesȱ ofȱtheȱwordȱ ȇmeaningȇ.ȱOneȱofȱthemȱisȱ ȇsignificanceȇ;ȱitȇsȱlikeȱaȱ ȇsignȇȱthatȱ pointsȱ toȱ something.ȱ Anotherȱ isȱ ȇvalueȇ.ȱ Andȱ thereȱ isȱ ȇpurposeȇȱ orȱ ȇintentionȇ.ȱTheseȱareȱconnected,ȱbecauseȱ ifȱyouȱsayȱ ȇsomethingȱmeansȱaȱ lotȱtoȱmeȇ,ȱyouȱmeanȱitȱhasȱaȱhighȱvalue.ȱAndȱitȱyouȱsayȱȇIȱmeanȱtoȱdoȱitȇ,ȱ thatȱisȱtheȱsameȱasȱtoȱsayȱȇitȇsȱmyȱpurpose,ȱmyȱintentionȇ.ȱTheyȇreȱrelatedȱ words,ȱ obviously.ȱ Somethingȱ withȱ greatȱ significanceȱ willȱ generateȱ aȱ senseȱofȱvalue.ȱAndȱtheȱvalueȱisȱtheȱenergyȱthatȱinfusesȱyou;ȱitȱmakesȱyouȱ feelȱitȇsȱworthȱdoing,ȱorȱworthwhile.ȱ

Q:ȱ Whenȱ youȇreȱ talkingȱ hereȱ youȱ areȱ consciouslyȱ orȱ unconsciouslyȱ creatingȱaȱsignificance.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ point.ȱ Iȱ wantȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱ Iȇmȱ communicatingȱ aȱ significance.ȱ

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Q:ȱButȱ ifȱ Iȱwereȱ toȱgetȱ togetherȱwithȱaȱgroupȱofȱpeople,ȱ Iȱmightȱnotȱbeȱ ableȱtoȱarticulateȱthatȱsignificance.ȱItȱjustȱmayȱnotȱbeȱavailable.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱ itȱ would.ȱ Iȇmȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ weȱ startȱ byȱ communicatingȱ thisȱsignificanceȱandȱseeingȱwhereȱweȱcanȱgo.ȱ Ifȱpeopleȱ whoȱhaveȱnoȱnotionȱofȱ thisȱwholeȱprocessȱofȱ thoughtȱandȱdialogueȱgetȱ togetherȱitȇsȱpossibleȱthatȱtheyȱmightȱfindȱaȱway,ȱbutȱtheȱchancesȱareȱtheyȱ wouldȱnot.ȱNevertheless,ȱbyȱaȱcreativeȱstepȱtheyȱmightȱsomehowȱdoȱit.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱ Itȱ seems,ȱ though,ȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱ alsoȱ anotherȱ possibility.ȱ Ifȱ theyȱ areȱ sufficientlyȱopenȱtheyȱmayȱseeȱaȱcommonȱnecessity.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱbe.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱtheȱtypicalȱpeopleȱinȱourȱsocietyȱ haveȱreflexesȱwhichȱareȱagainstȱthatȱopenness.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱmayȱnotȱhaveȱtoȱcreateȱorȱprojectȱanyȱsignificance.ȱWeȱmayȱhaveȱaȱ commonȱnecessityȱthatȱweȱcanȱpossiblyȱdiscoverȱinȱthisȱprocess.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱ canȇtȱ seeȱ necessityȱwithoutȱ theȱ significance.ȱNecessityȱ isȱ aȱ significance.ȱTheȱsituationȱsignifiesȱnecessity.ȱItȱsignifiesȱthatȱitȱcannotȱbeȱ otherwise.ȱSoȱhowȱdoȱyouȱknowȱthatȱsomethingȱisȱnecessary?ȱ

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Q:ȱIȱwouldȱsayȱthroughȱperception,ȱawarenessȱofȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱ thatȇsȱ aȱ significanceȱ Ȭȱ youȱ seeȱ theȱmeaningȱ ofȱ theȱ situationȱ whichȱ impliesȱ thatȱ somethingȱ isȱnecessary.ȱHowȱdoȱyouȱknowȱwhatȱ isȱ necessary?ȱ Lookȱ atȱ aȱ situation:ȱ Iȱ perceiveȱ ȇxȇȱ isȱ necessary.ȱ Butȱ thatȇsȱ aȱ certainȱsignificance.ȱNecessityȱandȱcontingencyȱareȱtwoȱsignificances.ȱ

Q:ȱDoesnȇtȱ theȱperceptionȱgiveȱ itȱ theȱ significance?ȱOnceȱyouȱhaveȱ thatȱ perception,ȱisnȇtȱthatȱtheȱfirstȱthingȱthatȱhappens?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȱwill.ȱButȱifȱeverybodyȱwereȱperceivingȱclearlyȱweȱwouldnȇtȱ haveȱthisȱproblem.ȱ

Q:ȱObviouslyȱweȇreȱnot.ȱButȱmaybeȱthereȇsȱaȱpossibilityȱthatȱweȱcouldȱseeȱ thisȱcommonȱmeaning.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAtȱ someȱpointȱweȱmayȱ seeȱaȱcommonȱmeaning;ȱ thatȇsȱwhatȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱtoȱsay.ȱIȇmȱjustȱoutliningȱtheȱideaȱofȱmeaningȱnow,ȱandȱsayingȱthatȱ atȱsomeȱpointȱweȱmayȱallȱseeȱaȱcommonȱmeaningȱȬȱwhichȱincludesȱwhatȱ isȱ necessary,ȱ whatȱ isȱ valuable,ȱ whatȱ isȱ worthwhile.ȱ Andȱ alsoȱ Iȇmȱ outliningȱ theȱpurposeȱ andȱwhatȱ theȱ intentionsȱ areȱwhichȱ couldȱ realizeȱ that.ȱ Theȱ valueȱ andȱ theȱ purposeȱ flowȱ outȱ ofȱ theȱ perceptionȱ ofȱ theȱ

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meaning.ȱNow,ȱ theȱpurposeȱmayȱ beȱ changing,ȱ becauseȱ asȱyouȱ seeȱ theȱ meaningȱmoreȱdeeplyȱyouȱmayȱhaveȱtoȱshiftȱtheȱpurpose.ȱIsȱthatȱclear?ȱ

Iȱwantȱtoȱshowȱthatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱstartȱbyȱseeingȱtheȱsignificance.ȱPerhapsȱ thoseȱ earlyȱpeopleȱ sawȱ theȱ significanceȱ easily,ȱ butȱnowȱweȱhaveȱ goneȱ throughȱ thousandsȱofȱyearsȱofȱcivilizationȱwithȱ itsȱsmogȱandȱwhatȱnot,ȱ andȱ itȱ isȱ veryȱ hardȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱmeaningȱ ofȱ this.ȱ Evenȱ ifȱweȱ seeȱ itȱ byȱ intellect,ȱ byȱ inference,ȱ itȱ stillȱ isȱ notȱworkingȱ inȱ theȱ reflexes.ȱ Inȱ otherȱ words,ȱ peopleȱwhoȱ seeȱ thatȱweȱ needȱ toȱ getȱ togetherȱ stillȱ canȇtȱ doȱ it,ȱ becauseȱtheȱreflexȱcomesȱupȱȬȱsuchȱasȱZionismȱandȱantiȬZionism.ȱ

Q:ȱForȱmeȱtheȱwordȱȇnecessityȇȱhasȱtheȱsameȱmeaningȱasȱȇmeaningȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱmeaning,ȱbutȱthereȱareȱveryȱmanyȱmeaningsȱbesidesȱ necessity.ȱ Forȱ instance,ȱ thereȇsȱ theȱ generalȱ andȱ theȱ particular,ȱ thereȇsȱ necessityȱandȱcontingency.ȱAndȱ thereȱareȱaȱ lotȱofȱotherȱ thingsȱ likeȱ that.ȱ Thereȱareȱmanyȱmeanings,ȱandȱnecessityȱisȱaȱparticularȱkindȱofȱmeaning.ȱ

Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthatȱfundamentalȱtoȱdialogue,ȱthough?ȱIsnȇtȱthereȱaȱnecessity?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ right,ȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ necessity.ȱ Ifȱweȱ allȱ seeȱ theȱ necessityȱ ofȱ dialogueȱweȱwillȱjustȱbeȱdoingȱit.ȱButȱIȇmȱstartingȱfromȱaȱsituationȱwhereȱ thatȱisȱnotȱaȱcommonȱperception.ȱ

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Q:ȱWouldȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱnecessityȱarisesȱoutȱofȱ theȱmeaning.ȱThatȱ ifȱ youȱ donȇtȱ understandȱ whatȱ itȱ meansȱ youȱ canȇtȱ understandȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ necessary?ȱ

Q:ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱIȇmȱquestioning,ȱbecauseȱIȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱnecessityȱisȱthereȱ already.ȱWeȱhaveȱthisȱnecessityȱinȱtheȱwayȱthatȱtheȱworldȱis.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱmostȱpeopleȱdonȇtȱseeȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱTheyȱdonȇtȱseeȱit,ȱtheyȱdonȇtȱseeȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱthat.ȱButȱisnȇtȱitȱaȱfact?ȱ

Bohm:ȱAsȱyouȱjustȱsaid,ȱtheyȱdonȇtȱseeȱtheȱmeaning.ȱTheȱmeaningȱisȱwhatȱ theyȱdonȇtȱsee.ȱTheȱmeaningȱisȱnecessaryȱtoȱseeȱtheȱfact.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱseeȱtheȱ factȱclearlyȱunlessȱyouȱseeȱaȱcoherentȱmeaning.ȱWhatȱthingsȱmeanȱtoȱyouȱ willȱ determineȱ theȱ wayȱ youȱ act.ȱ Ifȱ somethingȱ meansȱ anȱ enemy,ȱ orȱ whatever,ȱ youȱ actȱ accordingly.ȱ Thatȇsȱwhatȱweȱwereȱ saying,ȱ thatȱ ourȱ thinkingȱgoesȱ intoȱtheȱperceptionȱandȱgivesȱ itȱaȱdifferentȱmeaning.ȱSoȱaȱ greatȱ dealȱ ofȱ thoughtȱ hasȱ goneȱ intoȱ perception,ȱ givingȱ itȱ aȱ differentȱ meaning.ȱAndȱ theȱmeaningȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ ourȱ thoughtȱ givesȱ itȱ Ȭȱ isȱ thatȱ noȱ

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dialogueȱ isȱ necessary,ȱ thatȱ weȱ canȱ allȱ goȱ onȱ asȱ individualsȱ doingȱ whateverȱweȱlike,ȱthatȱtheȱhighestȱformȱofȱcivilizationȱisȱeveryȱindividualȱ doingȱsomethingȱ justȱforȱhimselfȱandȱnotȱconsultingȱanybodyȱelse.ȱAndȱ thatȇsȱ whatȱ almostȱ everybodyȱ isȱ saying.ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱ peopleȱ likeȱ Ronaldȱ Reaganȱhaveȱsaidȱthatȱthatȇsȱtheȱhighest.ȱAndȱMargaretȱThatcherȱpridedȱ herselfȱonȱthat.ȱAndȱsoȱon.ȱ

Q:ȱSupposeȱweȱsayȱweȱhaveȱaȱgivenȱnumberȱofȱfacts,ȱsuchȱasȱthatȱvariousȱ thingsȱareȱhappeningȱinȱtheȱworld.ȱForȱoneȱpersonȱthatȱstatementȱmeansȱ weȱ shouldȱ goȱ hideȱ inȱ theȱ hillsȱ andȱ collectȱ ammunition.ȱ Forȱ anotherȱ personȱitȱmeansȱweȱshouldȱgetȱtogetherȱandȱtalk.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAndȱforȱanotherȱpersonȱitȱmeansȱforgetȱaboutȱitȱallȱandȱ justȱtakeȱ careȱofȱyourself.ȱ

Q:ȱThereforeȱmanyȱdifferentȱmeaningsȱcouldȱcomeȱoutȱofȱthat.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbecauseȱofȱallȱ thoseȱdifferentȱ thoughts.ȱ Itȱmayȱbeȱ thatȱ ifȱweȱ actuallyȱ sawȱ itȱ clearlyȱ weȱ wouldȱ seeȱ togetherȱ thatȱ weȱ reallyȱ needȱ dialogue.ȱButȱ thereȱareȱvastȱnumbersȱofȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱhaveȱcomeȱ in,ȱ andȱtheyȱenterȱintoȱtheȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱmeaning.ȱPeopleȱareȱseeingȱtheȱ meaningȱdifferently,ȱwhichȱisȱwhyȱweȱcanȇtȱgetȱtogether.ȱ

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Q:ȱHowȱ wouldȱ youȱ getȱ peopleȱ togetherȱ inȱ theȱ firstȱ place?ȱ Forȱwhatȱ reasonȱwouldȱtheyȱgetȱtogetherȱifȱnotȱforȱthisȱpurpose?ȱ

Bohm:ȱPeopleȱareȱ togetherȱ toȱaȱ certainȱextentȱbecauseȱ theyȱwantȱ toȱdoȱ variousȱthings.ȱAndȱ inȱadditionȱtheyȱmightȱgetȱtogetherȱforȱthisȱreason.ȱ Butȱ peopleȱ areȱ tryingȱ toȱ getȱ togetherȱ forȱ countlessȱ reasonsȱ andȱ notȱ succeeding.ȱForȱexample,ȱthereȱareȱtheȱpeopleȱwhoȱareȱ interestedȱ inȱtheȱ ecologicalȱcrisis.ȱTheyȱallȱhaveȱdifferentȱmeaningsȱasȱtoȱwhatȱshouldȱbeȱ done,ȱandȱ theyȱcanȱ fightȱeachȱotherȱandȱcancelȱoutȱeachȱotherȇsȱefforts.ȱ Theyȱareȱtryingȱtoȱgetȱtogether;ȱbutȱnotȱseeingȱtheȱpointȱofȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱ onȱȬȱnotȱseeingȱhowȱthoughtȱworksȱȬtheyȱareȱnotȱableȱto.ȱ

Q:ȱ Areȱ youȱ suggestingȱ thatȱ thoseȱ peopleȱ couldȱ getȱ togetherȱ forȱ aȱ particularȱecologicalȱreason?ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱthenȱtheyȱwouldȱdiscoverȱthatȱtheyȱcannotȱdoȱwhateverȱtheyȱ wantedȱ toȱdoȱunlessȱ theyȱgoȱ intoȱ thisȱdeeperȱquestionȱofȱmeaning.ȱAtȱ presentȱ thereȇsȱaȱdangerȱ thatȱ theȱwholeȱ ecologicalȱmovementȱwillȱ splitȱ up;ȱinȱfactȱitȱhasȱsplitȱupȱaȱlot,ȱtheȱsameȱasȱeverythingȱelseȱhasȱsplitȱup,ȱ becauseȱeverybodyȱhasȱaȱdifferentȱmeaning.ȱ

Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthatȱoneȱstepȱremovedȱfromȱtheȱfactȱthen?ȱWeȇveȱalreadyȱgivenȱitȱ aȱparticularȱmeaning,ȱwhateverȱtheȱmeaningȱis:ȱhowȱweȱperceiveȱreality,ȱ theȱworldȱ situation,ȱorȱwhatever.ȱHasnȇtȱ thatȱmovedȱ intoȱaȱpersonalȱorȱ subjectiveȱdirectionȱawayȱfromȱtheȱfact?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱItȱhasȱmoved,ȱbutȱtheȱfactȱisȱthatȱitȱhasȱmoved.ȱWeȱmustȱstartȱwithȱ thisȱfact.ȱTheȱhigherȱorderȱofȱfactȱisȱthatȱpeopleȱareȱnotȱlookingȱatȱtheȱtrueȱ fact.ȱThatȇsȱwhereȱweȱhaveȱtoȱstartȱȬȱfromȱthatȱfact.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱasȱyouȇreȱsaying,ȱtheȱcircumstancesȱareȱbeginningȱtoȱcompelȱusȱtoȱ doȱthatȱinȱnewȱways.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheyȇreȱmakingȱitȱnecessaryȱtoȱdoȱit,ȱbutȱwhetherȱweȱwillȱdoȱitȱorȱ notȱremainsȱtoȱbeȱseen.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ itȱ importantȱ orȱ evenȱ necessaryȱ toȱ haveȱ aȱ reasonȱ forȱ aȱ groupȱ ofȱ peopleȱtoȱcomeȱtogetherȱtoȱattemptȱtoȱhaveȱaȱdialogue?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱthirtyȱarbitrarilyȱchosenȱpeopleȱjustȱgotȱtogetherȱtheyȱprobablyȱ wouldnȇtȱ haveȱ aȱ dialogue.ȱ Iȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱ meaningȱofȱdialogue,ȱtheȱsignificanceȱandȱtheȱvalueȱofȱdialogue,ȱifȱweȱareȱ goingȱtoȱsustainȱtheȱworkȱneededȱtoȱmakeȱitȱhappen.ȱItȱwonȇtȱhappenȱinȱ justȱ fiveȱminutes.ȱ Youȱ haveȱ toȱ sustainȱ theȱ dialogueȱweekȱ afterȱweek,ȱ becauseȱ thereȱ areȱ allȱ theseȱ resistancesȱ thatȱ areȱ goingȱ toȱ comeȱ up.ȱ Soȱ peopleȱwillȱneedȱtoȱhaveȱaȱfirmȱperceptionȱofȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱdialogue,ȱofȱ theȱmeaningȱofȱtheȱwholeȱsituation.ȱ

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O:ȱButȱwhatȱ isȱthisȱmeaning?ȱIȇveȱbeenȱ inȱmany,ȱmanyȱofȱtheseȱgroups.ȱ EveryȱonceȱinȱaȱwhileȱIȱaskȱȇwhyȱareȱweȱhere?ȇ.ȱNobodyȱseemsȱtoȱknow.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ thinkȱpeopleȱdoȱhaveȱsomeȱvagueȱsenseȱofȱ it,ȱwhichȱ isȱnotȱyetȱ formulated;ȱthatȇsȱoneȱofȱtheȱdifficultiesȱweȱhaveȱtoȱgetȱthrough.ȱWeȱneedȱ aȱcreativeȱstepȱsoȱ thatȱweȱseeȱ thisȱ firmly.ȱ Ifȱyouȱhaveȱanȱ insightȱ intoȱ it,ȱ youȱcouldȱthenȱputȱitȱinȱwords.ȱ

Now,ȱyouȱcouldȱask:ȱȇWhyȱdonȇtȱpeopleȱseeȱthisȱclearly?ȱItȱseemsȱaȱveryȱ presentȱ dangerȱ andȱ yetȱ itȱ seemsȱ peopleȱ canȇtȱ seeȱ it.ȇȱTheyȱ donȇtȱ seeȱ itȱ becauseȱofȱthisȱthoughtȱprocess,ȱwhichȱisȱcollectiveȱasȱwellȱasȱindividual.ȱ Theȱ thoughts,ȱ theȱ fantasiesȱ andȱ theȱ collectiveȱ fantasiesȱ areȱ enteringȱ perception.ȱ Mythsȱ areȱ collectiveȱ fantasies,ȱ andȱ everyȱ cultureȱ hasȱ itsȱ myths.ȱManyȱofȱthemȱareȱenteringȱperceptionȱasȱ ifȱtheyȱwereȱperceivedȱ realities.ȱ Everybodyȱ hasȱ aȱ somewhatȱ differentȱ wayȱ inȱ whichȱ thisȱ happens,ȱandȱweȱdonȇtȱactuallyȱseeȱtheȱfact.ȱThatȱisȱtheȱfact:ȱthatȱweȱdonȇtȱ seeȱ theȱ fact.ȱThereȱ isȱ aȱhigherȱorderȱofȱ factȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ isȱ thatȱweȱ areȱnotȱ seeingȱtheȱdirectȱfact.ȱAsȱIȱsaid,ȱthatȱisȱtheȱfactȱfromȱwhichȱweȱmustȱstart.ȱ

Q:ȱ Ifȱweȱwereȱ toȱbeginȱ toȱdeconstructȱourȱculture,ȱwouldnȇtȱweȱalsoȱbeȱ ableȱtoȱdeconstructȱourȱindividualȱconditioningȱasȱweȱgoȱalong?ȱAreȱtheyȱ notȱoneȱandȱtheȱsame?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱItȇsȱtheȱsameȱfieldȱȬȱtheȱfieldȱofȱtheȱsystemȱofȱthought.ȱTheȱcultureȱ isȱ heldȱ togetherȱ byȱ thatȱ systemȱ ofȱ thought,ȱwhichȱ hasȱ theȱ sameȱ flaw,ȱ whetherȱitȱisȱcollectiveȱorȱindividual.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱhowȱdoȱweȱbeginȱtoȱdeconstructȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȇmȱdiscussingȱthatȱtheȱdialogueȱwillȱdoȱit.ȱWeȇreȱsortȱofȱtryingȱtoȱ getȱintoȱit.ȱ

Supposeȱweȱsayȱthatȱweȱseeȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱtheȱsituationȱenoughȱtoȱseeȱ thatȱ itȱ callsȱ forȱ something,ȱ itȱ makesȱ somethingȱ necessary.ȱ Itȱ makesȱ dialogueȱnecessary.ȱAndȱalsoȱweȱseeȱtheȱvalueȱofȱdialogue,ȱthatȱitȱisȱveryȱ important.ȱSoȱweȇreȱbeginningȱtoȱgenerateȱsomeȱsortȱofȱpurpose,ȱatȱleastȱ someȱimmediateȱpurposeȱofȱwhatȱshallȱweȱdo.ȱThatȱpurposeȱmayȱchangeȱ againȱ andȱ again,ȱ becauseȱ asȱ weȱ moveȱ alongȱ weȱ mayȱ wantȱ toȱ doȱ somethingȱ else.ȱWhatȱ Iȱ wantȱ toȱ sayȱ isȱ thatȱ weȱ canȇtȱ startȱ fromȱ theȱ purpose.ȱ Rather,ȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ startȱ fromȱ seeingȱ theȱmeaning.ȱAndȱ theȱ perceptionȱofȱtheȱmeaningȱcanȱgetȱdeeperȱandȱdeeperȱasȱwell.ȱ

Nowȱ whyȱ wouldȱ weȱ stickȱ togetherȱ Ȭȱ havingȱ allȱ theseȱ contraryȱ assumptionsȱandȱreflexes,ȱandȱgoingȱthroughȱallȱtheȱunpleasantnessȱandȱ frustration?ȱ Whyȱ wouldȱ weȱ wantȱ toȱ stickȱ together?ȱ Ifȱ somethingȱ isȱ important,ȱweȱknowȱweȱwillȱdoȱ it.ȱ Ifȱweȱ seeȱ thisȱ isȱ importantȱ thenȱweȱ willȱstickȱ togetherȱandȱsayȱ ȇletȇsȱsustainȱ theȱdialogueȱandȱseeȱ ifȱweȱ findȱ creativelyȱhowȱtoȱgetȱthroughȱthisȇ.ȱ

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Q:ȱIfȱweȱseeȱtheȱnecessityȱofȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱ theȱ situationȱmeansȱ toȱus,ȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ aȱnecessity.ȱToȱ somebodyȱelseȱitȱmayȱmeanȱitȇsȱnoȱnecessityȱatȱallȱȬȱȇIȇȱcanȱjustȱtakeȱcareȱofȱ myself.ȱIȇmȱproposingȱthatȱthatȇsȱbecauseȱofȱaȱcertainȱwayȱofȱthought.ȱSoȱ canȱ weȱ haveȱ anȱ insightȱ intoȱ theȱ necessity,ȱ anȱ insightȱ whichȱ reallyȱ removesȱthisȱsmog?ȱPeopleȱtryȱtoȱgetȱholdȱofȱthis,ȱbutȱtheyȱgetȱlostȱinȱtheȱ smog.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱnecessityȱofȱwhat?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Ofȱ reallyȱ communicating,ȱ freely.ȱ Butȱ theseȱ assumptions,ȱ forȱ example,ȱareȱstoppingȱusȱfromȱcommunicating.ȱTheyȱgiveȱthisȱemotionalȱ charge;ȱweȱdefendȱthemȱagainstȱevidenceȱthatȱtheyȱareȱwrong,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ Weȱneedȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱnecessityȱofȱ seeingȱallȱofȱ that,ȱ includingȱ theȱwholeȱ neurophysiologicalȱchemicalȱprocessȱinvolvedȱwhichȱbindsȱus.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱThenȱanȱordinaryȱgroupȱmightȱnotȱhaveȱthatȱnecessity?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱTheyȱwouldnȇtȱ evenȱknowȱ aboutȱ this.ȱHowȱ couldȱ theyȱ seeȱ thatȱ necessityȱifȱtheyȱdonȇtȱknowȱaboutȱthisȱatȱall?ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsuggestingȱthatȱ itȱmightȱworkȱwithȱanȱordinaryȱgroup,ȱorȱ itȱ couldnȇtȱworkȱwithȱanȱordinaryȱgroup?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȇsȱnotȱ likely.ȱPossiblyȱ ifȱtheyȱwereȱveryȱcreativeȱandȱtheyȱstuckȱ withȱitȱtheyȱmightȱfindȱitȱanyway.ȱIȱmean,ȱweȱdonȇtȱwantȱtoȱputȱlimitsȱonȱ humanȱpossibilities.ȱButȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȱitȱdoesnȇtȱlookȱlikely.ȱ

Q:ȱMoreȱandȱmore,ȱscientistsȱofȱgroupȱprocessȱareȱcomingȱtoȱseeȱandȱtoȱ showȱpeopleȱ thatȱ theȱbiggestȱobstacleȱ toȱaȱgroupȱachievingȱwhateverȱ itȱ wasȱ formedȱ toȱ doȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ hasȱ toȱ shareȱmeaning;ȱ thatȱ inȱ orderȱ forȱ aȱ groupȱ toȱbeȱableȱ toȱdoȱwhateverȱ itȇsȱgoingȱ toȱdo,ȱ itȱ firstȱneedsȱ toȱ learnȱ howȱtoȱshareȱmeaningȱtogether.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱandȱthatȱmeansȱdialogue.ȱThatȇsȱwhatȱIȇmȱsaying.ȱ

Whenȱweȱsayȱweȱseeȱtheȱnecessityȱofȱsharingȱmeaning,ȱtheȱfirstȱthingȱweȱ discoverȱ isȱ thatȱ weȱ canȇtȱ doȱ it.ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ thingȱ asȱ withȱ theȱ individualȱ—ȱweȱseeȱtheȱnecessityȱofȱstayingȱwithȱangerȱbutȱweȱcanȇtȱdoȱ it,ȱweȇreȱmovingȱaway.ȱSoȱthenȱwhatȱweȱhaveȱtoȱwatchȱisȱhowȱweȱmoveȱ away.ȱ Andȱ ifȱweȱ areȱ reallyȱ seriousȱ aboutȱ itȱweȱ say:ȱ ȇIȱ reallyȱ seeȱ theȱ

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necessity,ȱ andȱ Iȱwonȇtȱ justȱ stopȱ becauseȱ Iȱ failedȱ atȱ thatȱpoint.ȱ Iȇllȱ stickȱ withȱitȱandȱseeȱifȱIȱcanȇtȱfindȱwhyȱitȇsȱnotȱworkingȇȱ

Q:ȱOneȱcanȱsortȱofȱplayȱwithȱit.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱcanȱplayȱwithȱthis,ȱbutȱthenȱyouȱwillȱgetȱfrustrationȱbecauseȱ veryȱseriousȱassumptionsȱwillȱcomeȱupȱwhichȱareȱvery,ȱvery,ȱpowerful.ȱ Youȱhaveȱtoȱsayȱthatȱyouȇllȱstickȱwithȱitȱevenȱthoughȱitȱgetsȱdifficultȱandȱ unpleasant.ȱ

Weȱcanȇtȱguaranteeȱthatȱthisȱisȱgoingȱtoȱwork.ȱButȱweȱcanȇtȱguaranteeȱthatȱ anyȱotherȱdifficultȱthingȱyouȱmightȱwantȱtoȱdoȱisȱgoingȱtoȱworkȱeither.ȱIfȱ youȱaskȱforȱaȱguaranteeȱbeforehandȱyouȱmightȱneverȱdoȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱ Inȱaȱwayȱweȱdonȇtȱevenȱknowȱwhatȱ ȇworkingȇȱmeans.ȱWeȱmayȱ thinkȱ itȇsȱsupposedȱtoȱworkȱinȱaȱcertainȱway,ȱandȱitȱmayȱbeȱworkingȱdifferentlyȱ onȱaȱlevelȱweȱhaveȱnoȱideaȱabout.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱweȱdonȇtȱknowȱtooȱwellȱwhatȱitȱmeans.ȱ

NowȱletȱmeȱgiveȱwhatȱIȱcallȱȇaȱvisionȱofȱdialogueȇȱtoȱsortȱofȱpaintȱanȱideaȱ ofȱwhatȱitȱmightȱmean.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱhaveȱtoȱacceptȱit,ȱbutȱitȱmayȱbeȱaȱwayȱ

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toȱ lookȱatȱ it.ȱ Iȇmȱnotȱsayingȱ thatȱwhatȱweȇreȱenvisioningȱwillȱwork,ȱnotȱ rightȱ awayȱ atȱ anyȱ rate.ȱ Itȱmayȱbeȱ thatȱwhenȱyouȱ firstȱ tryȱ thisȱ itȱwonȇtȱ work.ȱ Butȱ still,ȱ itȇsȱ anȱ importantȱ vision.ȱAlmostȱ anythingȱworthwhileȱ doesnȇtȱworkȱwhenȱyouȱfirstȱtryȱit.ȱ

Letȇsȱsupposeȱweȱcanȱstickȱwithȱthis.ȱAndȱweȱfaceȱthisȱemotionalȱchargeȱȬȱ allȱ thisȱ smog,ȱallȱ thisȱ irritation,ȱallȱ thisȱ frustrationȱ Ȭȱwhichȱ canȱactuallyȱ developȱ intoȱ hateȱ ifȱ veryȱ powerfulȱ assumptionsȱ areȱ there.ȱ Theȱ smogȱ betweenȱtheȱZionistȱandȱtheȱantiȬZionistȱcouldȱeasilyȱdoȱthat,ȱandȱthatȇsȱ ratherȱ mildȱ comparedȱ withȱ whatȱ isȱ reallyȱ possibleȱ withȱ someȱ assumptions.ȱWeȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ hateȱ isȱ aȱ neurophysiologicalȱ chemicalȱ disturbanceȱofȱaȱveryȱpowerfulȱkind,ȱwhichȱisȱnowȱendemicȱinȱtheȱworld.ȱ Whereverȱyouȱ look,ȱyouȱ seeȱpeopleȱhatingȱeachȱother.ȱSoȱ supposeȱyouȱ stickȱwithȱthis.ȱYouȱmayȱgetȱanȱinsight,ȱaȱsharedȱinsight,ȱthatȱweȇreȱallȱinȱ theȱsameȱpositionȱȬȱeverybodyȱhasȱanȱassumption,ȱeverybodyȱisȱstickingȱ toȱ hisȱ assumption,ȱ everybodyȱ isȱ disturbedȱ neurochemically.ȱ Theȱ fundamentalȱ levelȱ inȱpeopleȱ isȱ theȱ same;ȱ theȱ superficialȱdifferencesȱareȱ notȱsoȱimportant.ȱ

Iȱamȱpresentingȱthisȱasȱanȱinference.ȱButȱifȱyouȱactuallyȱgetȱanȱinsight,ȱatȱ thatȱ momentȱ itȱ mightȱ touchȱ theȱ wholeȱ reflexȱ structureȱ withȱ allȱ theȱ chemistry.ȱItȱmightȱbeȱtouchedȱatȱthatȱmoment.ȱ

Itȇsȱ possibleȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ levelȱ ofȱ contactȱ inȱ theȱ groupȱ anyway.ȱTheȱthoughtȱprocessȱisȱanȱextensionȱofȱtheȱbodyȱprocess,ȱandȱallȱ theȱbodyȱlanguageȱisȱshowingȱit,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱPeopleȱareȱreallyȱinȱaȱratherȱ closeȱ contactȱ Ȭȱhateȱ isȱ anȱ extremelyȱ closeȱbond.ȱ Iȱ rememberȱ somebodyȱ sayingȱ thatȱ whenȱ peopleȱ areȱ reallyȱ inȱ closeȱ contact,ȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ somethingȱ whichȱ isȱ veryȱ importantȱ toȱ them,ȱ theirȱ wholeȱ bodiesȱ areȱ involvedȱ Ȭȱ theirȱ hearts,ȱ theirȱ adrenalin,ȱ allȱ theȱ neurochemicals,ȱ everything.ȱTheyȱareȱinȱfarȱcloserȱcontactȱwithȱeachȱotherȱthanȱwithȱsomeȱ

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partsȱofȱ theirȱownȱbodies,ȱsuchȱasȱ theirȱ toes.ȱSo,ȱ inȱsomeȱsenseȱ thereȱ isȱ establishedȱ inȱ thatȱ contactȱ ȇoneȱbodyȇ.ȱAndȱ also,ȱ ifȱweȱ canȱ allȱ listenȱ toȱ eachȱ otherȇsȱ opinions,ȱ andȱ suspendȱ themȱwithoutȱ judgingȱ them,ȱ andȱ yourȱopinionȱ isȱonȱ theȱ sameȱbasisȱ asȱ anybodyȱ elseȇs,ȱ thenȱweȱ allȱhaveȱ ȇoneȱmindȇȱbecauseȱweȱhaveȱ theȱsameȱcontentȱ Ȭȱallȱ theȱopinions,ȱallȱ theȱ assumptions.ȱAtȱthatȱmomentȱtheȱdifferenceȱisȱsecondary.ȱ

Theȱpointȱ thenȱ isȱ thatȱyouȱhaveȱ inȱ someȱ senseȱoneȱbody,ȱoneȱmind.ȱ Itȱ doesȱ notȱ overwhelmȱ theȱ individual.ȱ Ifȱ theȱ individualȱ hasȱ anotherȱ assumptionȱ heȱ canȱ haveȱ it,ȱ itȇsȱ sharedȱwithȱ theȱ groupȱ andȱ theȱ groupȱ takesȱ itȱup.ȱThereȱ isȱnoȱconflictȱ inȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ theȱ individualȱdoesȱnotȱ agree.ȱ Itȇsȱnotȱallȱ thatȱ importantȱwhetherȱyouȱagreeȱorȱnot.ȱThereȱ isȱnoȱ pressureȱtoȱagreeȱorȱdisagree.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱ contact,ȱbutȱ theȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱpeopleȱ haveȱmightȱbeȱquiteȱdifferentȱȬȱthereȱdoesnȇtȱneedȱtoȱbeȱanȱagreement?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱdonȇtȱhaveȱ toȱagreeȱ thatȱ somebodyȱ isȱ right,ȱbutȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ listenȱtoȱeveryȱthoughtȱandȱseeȱitsȱmeaning.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱtheȱconnectionȱisȱmolecular,ȱitȇsȱnotȱinȱthought.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱItȇsȱsortȱofȱmolecular.ȱItȇsȱhardȱtoȱdescribe;ȱIȱmean,ȱitȱisȱatȱanotherȱ level.ȱInȱearlyȱtimesȱtheyȱhadȱitȱquiteȱfrequently.ȱAndȱIȱthinkȱpeopleȱwantȱ thatȱveryȱmuch.ȱ

InȱEngland,ȱforȱexample,ȱtheȱfootballȱcrowdsȱpreferȱnotȱtoȱhaveȱseatsȱ inȱ theirȱfootballȱstands,ȱbutȱjustȱtoȱstandȱbunchedȱagainstȱeachȱother.ȱThereȱ areȱ soȱmanyȱpeople,ȱ andȱwhenȱ somethingȱ excitingȱhappensȱ theyȱpushȱ againstȱeachȱotherȱandȱsometimesȱpeopleȱgetȱkilledȱbecauseȱofȱtheȱcrowd.ȱ Theyȱcanȇtȱcontrolȱ itȱanymore,ȱandȱtheȱpressureȱbuildsȱupȱtoȱsomethingȱ whereȱpeopleȱcanȇtȱbreathe.ȱThereȱwasȱaȱ recentȱ incidentȱwhereȱaȱ lotȱofȱ peopleȱwereȱkilled.ȱAndȱ thereȱhaveȱbeenȱotherȱ incidentsȱofȱ thatȱnature.ȱ Soȱsomeȱpeopleȱbeganȱtoȱsuggestȱȇwhyȱnotȱputȱseatsȱinȱallȱtheseȱfootballȱ stands?ȇ.ȱ Butȱmanyȱ otherȱ peopleȱ objected.ȱ Theyȱ said:ȱ ȇWeȱ donȇtȱwantȱ seats.ȱWeȱwantȱ thatȱcontact.ȇȱTheȱ reasonȱ theyȇreȱgoingȱ toȱ thoseȱ footballȱ gamesȱ isȱ notȱ justȱ toȱ seeȱ theȱ games;ȱ theȱ gameȱ isȱ aȱ sociallyȱ acceptableȱ reasonȱforȱhavingȱthisȱcontactȱwhichȱtheȱsocietyȱdoesnȇtȱallowȱanywhereȱ else.ȱ

Q:ȱ Ifȱ Iȱ canȱ lookȱbeyondȱ theȱ assumptionsȱ Ȭȱ respectȱyoursȱ andȱhaveȱmyȱ ownȱȬȱthenȱcanȱIȱseeȱmeȱinȱyou?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱcanȱseeȱthatȱweȱallȱhaveȱtheseȱassumptions,ȱandȱweȱlookȱatȱallȱ theȱassumptions.ȱIȇmȱlookingȱatȱyourȱassumptionsȱandȱmyȱassumptions.ȱ Theyȇreȱallȱsuspended.ȱIȇmȱnotȱdecidingȱtheyȱareȱrightȱorȱwrong.ȱOr,ȱifȱIȱ thinkȱIȱpreferȱmine,ȱwell,ȱthatȇsȱOK.ȱButȱstillȱIȇmȱlookingȱatȱtheȱmeaningȱ ofȱwhatȱ youȱ say.ȱ Andȱ thereforeȱweȱ areȱ sharingȱ aȱ commonȱmeaning.ȱ Then,ȱifȱsomebodyȱelseȱcomesȱupȱwithȱanotherȱassumptionȱweȱallȱlistenȱ

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toȱ that;ȱ weȱ shareȱ thatȱ meaning.ȱ Nowȱ thatȱ wouldȱ beȱ theȱ ȇvisionȱ ofȱ dialogueȇ.ȱ

Theȱpointȱisȱthatȱweȱwouldȱestablishȱonȱanotherȱlevelȱthisȱkindȱofȱbond,ȱ whichȱ isȱ calledȱ impersonalȱ fellowship.ȱ Youȱ donȇtȱ haveȱ toȱ knowȱ eachȱ other.ȱ Inȱ thoseȱ footballȱ crowdsȱ veryȱ fewȱpeopleȱ knowȱ eachȱ other,ȱ butȱ theyȱstillȱfeelȱsomethingȱȬthatȱcontactȱȬȱwhichȱisȱmissingȱinȱtheirȱordinaryȱ personalȱ relations.ȱAndȱ inȱwarȱmanyȱpeopleȱ feelȱ thatȱ thereȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱ comradeshipȱwhichȱtheyȱmissȱ inȱpeacetime.ȱItȇsȱtheȱsameȱsortȱofȱthingȱ Ȭȱ thatȱcloseȱconnection,ȱthatȱfellowship,ȱthatȱmutualȱparticipation.ȱ

Iȱ thinkȱ peopleȱ findȱ thisȱ lackingȱ inȱ ourȱ society,ȱ whichȱ glorifiesȱ theȱ separateȱindividual.ȱTheȱcommunistsȱwereȱtryingȱtoȱestablishȱsomethingȱ else,ȱbutȱ theyȱ completelyȱ failedȱ inȱaȱveryȱmiserableȱway.ȱNowȱaȱ lotȱofȱ themȱ haveȱ adoptedȱ theȱ sameȱ valuesȱ asȱweȱ have.ȱ Butȱ peopleȱ areȱ notȱ entirelyȱhappyȱwithȱthat.ȱTheyȱfeelȱisolated.ȱEvenȱthoseȱwhoȱsucceedȱfeelȱ isolated,ȱfeelȱthereȇsȱanotherȱsideȱtheyȱareȱmissing.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȇreȱ presentlyȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ dialogue.ȱDonȇtȱweȱ haveȱ theȱ taskȱ atȱ hand,ȱthatȱwhenȱweȱgoȱbackȱhomeȱweȱwantȱtoȱdrawȱpeopleȱtogetherȱtoȱ dialogue?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theȱ suggestionȱ isȱ thatȱweȱ shouldnȇtȱ thinkȱ ofȱ itȱ asȱ aȱ task.ȱ Theȱ wholeȱpointȱofȱdialogueȱ isȱ thatȱweȱareȱnotȱgoingȱ toȱhaveȱanȱagendaȱorȱ purpose.ȱWeȱareȱgoingȱtoȱseeȱtheȱmeaningȱandȱactȱaccordingly.ȱ

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Q:ȱIsnȇtȱthereȱstillȱtheȱfactȱofȱthirtyȱorȱfortyȱpeopleȱcomingȱtogetherȱunderȱ oneȱroof,ȱasȱweȇveȱdoneȱhere?ȱSomethingȱmustȱmakeȱthatȱhappen.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱweȱcanȇtȱȇmakeȇȱitȱhappen,ȱnotȱforceȱitȱtoȱhappenȱanyway.ȱIȇmȱ tryingȱ toȱsayȱ thatȱweȱcanȱonlyȱ look,ȱasȱweȱdidȱwithȱ theȱ individual.ȱWeȱ canȱonlyȱperceiveȱtheȱsituation.ȱAndȱourȱinsightȱmayȱchangeȱtheȱbarriersȱ toȱthis.ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱobviouslyȱthereȇsȱnoȱprescription;ȱthatȱwouldȱbeȱaȱcontradictionȱtoȱ whatȱweȇreȱtalkingȱabout.ȱYetȱthereȱisȱsomethingȱunknownȱthatȱmustȱbeȱ doneȱȬȱwhichȱcanȱorȱcannotȱbeȱdoneȱȬȱforȱthisȱtoȱhappen.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱsomethingȱmustȱhappen,ȱandȱweȱdonȇtȱknowȱwhetherȱitȱwillȱ orȱnot.ȱWhatȱIȇmȱtryingȱtoȱpresentȱisȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱdialogueȱȬȱaȱ ȇvisionȱ ofȱdialogueȇ.ȱByȱseeingȱtheȱmeaningȱweȱwillȱthenȱbeginȱtoȱfeelȱtheȱvalueȱ ofȱitȱandȱbeginȱtoȱestablishȱpurposes,ȱwhichȱmayȱhelpȱbringȱusȱtowardsȱ it.ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱmoreȱtheȱmeaning,ȱtheȱmoreȱtheȱaction?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱFromȱtheȱmeaningȱflowsȱtheȱsenseȱofȱvalue.ȱAndȱfromȱthatȱflowsȱ theȱpurposeȱandȱtheȱaction.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱweȱtalkingȱaboutȱaȱshiftȱinȱemphasisȱofȱprioritiesȱandȱimportance?ȱ Couldȱweȱ seeȱ theȱ importanceȱ ofȱ communication,ȱ andȱ seeȱ thatȱ stayingȱ withȱtheȱfactȱisȱmoreȱimportantȱthanȱourȱownȱassumptions?ȱAndȱdoȱweȱ tryȱtoȱbringȱthatȱideaȱintoȱsituations?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱweȱonceȱseeȱtheȱimportanceȱitȱwillȱcome.ȱThereforeȱweȱhaveȱtoȱ askȱȇifȱweȇveȱseenȱtheȱimportance,ȱwhyȱarenȇtȱweȱdoingȱit?ȇȱTheȱanswerȱisȱ alwaysȱ ȇthereȱ isȱ furtherȱ chemistryȱ andȱ thereȱ areȱ furtherȱ reflexesȱwhichȱ weȱhavenȇtȱtouchedȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱitȇsȱsomethingȱweȱcouldȱworkȱon?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱByȱsustainingȱtheȱdialogueȱweȱareȱbeginningȱtoȱprobeȱintoȱallȱ thatȱdeeperȱchemistryȱwhichȱwasȱhidden.ȱAndȱpartȱofȱtheȱwholeȱprocessȱ ofȱtheseȱreflexesȱisȱtoȱhideȱthemselves,ȱsoȱasȱtoȱavoidȱdisturbingȱtheȱappleȱ cart.ȱ Iȇmȱsuggestingȱ thatȱ ifȱweȱ tryȱ toȱrealizeȱ thisȱ ȇvisionȱofȱdialogueȇȱweȱ mayȱfindȱthatȱweȱcanȇtȱdoȱit.ȱButȱeveryȱȇvisionȇȱhasȱthatȱcharacterȱatȱfirst.ȱ

Soȱweȱ haveȱ toȱ sustainȱ theȱ dialogueȱ inȱ spiteȱ ofȱ frustrationȱ andȱ allȱ theȱ tumbles.ȱ Thisȱ energyȱ ofȱ frustrationȱ andȱ hate,ȱ andȱ theȱ rest,ȱwouldȱ beȱ dispelledȱ andȱ releasedȱ asȱ fellowship.ȱThereȱ isȱ someȱ closeȱbondȱ inȱ thatȱ

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frustration,ȱbutȱnowȱ itȱcouldȱbecomeȱaȱdifferentȱkind.ȱWhenȱpeopleȱareȱ engagedȱ inȱ theȱ oppositionȱ ofȱ deepȱ assumptions,ȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ closeȱ bondȱ betweenȱ them.ȱ Ifȱ theyȇreȱ indifferentȱ toȱ eachȱ otherȱ orȱ ifȱ theyȇreȱpolitelyȱ avoidingȱtheȱissue,ȱitȱisnȇtȱthere.ȱ

Ifȱyouȱstayȱwithȱthisȱ itȱcreatesȱaȱpossibilityȱofȱaȱcertainȱchange.ȱItȇsȱveryȱ similarȱtoȱwhatȱyouȱhaveȱtoȱdoȱinȱtheȱindividualȱproblemȱȬȱtoȱstayȱwithȱ theȱdifficultȱ situation,ȱ notȱ escapeȱ it.ȱ Ifȱ youȱ findȱ yourselfȱ escapingȱ youȱ needȱ toȱwatchȱ yourselfȱ escaping,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱ theȱ questionȱ ofȱ sorrow,ȱwhichȱKrishnamurtiȱtalkedȱaboutȱaȱ lotȱ Ȭȱthatȱfacedȱwithȱsorrowȱ peopleȱ seekȱ aȱ constantȱ escape,ȱ aȱ constantȱ movementȱ awayȱ fromȱ awarenessȱofȱ it.ȱTheȱreflexesȱ tryȱ toȱrelieveȱ theȱsituationȱbyȱmovingȱyouȱ away.ȱAndȱthatȱmeansȱyouȱcouldȱneverȱfindȱoutȱwhatȱitȱis,ȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱ on;ȱyouȱcouldȱneverȱperceiveȱthat.ȱButȱifȱyouȱseeȱyourselfȱmovingȱawayȱ andȱstayȱwithȱthat,ȱthatȱstayingȱwithȱitȱbuildsȱupȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱenergy.ȱ Theȱmoreȱyouȱ stayȱwithȱ it,ȱ theȱmoreȱyouȱgetȱaȱ senseȱ thatȱ itȇsȱallȱ reallyȱ someȱ sortȱ ofȱ physicalȱ tension.ȱ Thenȱ youȱmayȱ getȱ anȱ insightȱ thatȱ thisȱ wholeȱthingȱisȱjustȱaȱpartȱofȱtheȱmaterialȱprocess.ȱ

Theȱsocialȱproblemȱ isȱalsoȱpartȱofȱtheȱmaterialȱprocess,ȱbutȱweȱgiveȱ itȱaȱ veryȱ differentȱ significance.ȱ Forȱ instance,ȱ peopleȱ donȇtȱ thinkȱ thatȱ theȱ problemȱbetweenȱnationsȱisȱpartȱofȱtheȱmaterialȱprocess;ȱrather,ȱitȇsȱgivenȱ aȱtranscendentalȱsignificance.ȱBut,ȱactually,ȱitȱisȱjustȱtheȱmaterialȱprocessȱ whichȱhasȱbecomeȱmuddledȱupȱ itȇsȱ inȱthisȱsmogȱsituation.ȱInȱaȱmomentȱ ofȱ insightȱ inȱ theȱgroupȱweȱmayȱseeȱ thatȱweȱshareȱ thisȱmaterialȱprocess,ȱ andȱ thatȱ thisȱmaterialȱprocessȱweȱ shareȱ isȱmoreȱ significantȱ thanȱallȱ theȱ particularȱthoughtsȱwhereȱweȱdiffer.ȱ

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Q:ȱWouldȱ youȱ sayȱ thatȱ theȱ sustainingȱ ofȱ theȱ dialogueȱwithinȱ oneselfȱ increasesȱtheȱpossibilityȱofȱtheȱdialogueȱwithȱothers?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ becauseȱ onceȱ youȱhaveȱ anȱ insightȱ intoȱ this,ȱ sustainingȱ theȱ dialogueȱ inȱ yourselfȱwillȱ helpȱ theȱ others.ȱOr,ȱ sustainingȱ theȱ dialogueȱ withȱ theȱothersȱwillȱhelpȱ theȱ individual,ȱandȱhelpȱalsoȱ communicationȱ outsideȱtheȱgroup.ȱAndȱtheȱpeopleȱwhoȱunderstandȱthisȱcouldȱthenȱtryȱtoȱ establishȱdialogueȱgroups,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Usuallyȱforȱsuchȱaȱdialogueȱgroupȱthereȱshouldȱbeȱaȱfacilitatorȱtoȱhelpȱgetȱ itȱgoingȱandȱhelpȱpointȱoutȱwhatȇsȱgoingȱon,ȱandȱsoȱforth,ȱwhoȱgraduallyȱ becomesȱlessȱandȱlessȱnecessary.ȱHeȱmightȱhaveȱtheȱ ȇvisionȱofȱdialogueȇ,ȱ whichȱ heȱ couldȱ communicate.ȱ Itȇsȱ importantȱ thatȱ theȱ groupȱ seeȱ theȱ meaningȱofȱdialogueȱandȱhaveȱthisȱsortȱofȱvisionȱofȱit,ȱtoȱkeepȱgoingȱandȱ toȱkeepȱonȱdevelopingȱ that.ȱTheȱgroupȱmayȱ talkȱ aboutȱdialogueȱ againȱ fromȱtimeȱtoȱtime,ȱbutȱitȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱworthwhileȱtoȱkeepȱonȱaskingȱȇareȱ weȱhavingȱaȱdialogue?ȇ.ȱAlthoughȱsometimesȱitȱisȱworthwhile.ȱ

Iȱthinkȱnowȱwouldȱbeȱaȱgoodȱpointȱtoȱhaveȱaȱbreak.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȇveȱbeenȱdiscussingȱdialogue,ȱtoȱgiveȱtheȱmeaningȱandȱtoȱgiveȱ aȱ ȇvisionȱ ofȱ dialogueȇ.ȱ Tomorrow,ȱ thoseȱ whoȱ stayȱ willȱ tryȱ toȱ beginȱ somethingȱofȱaȱdialogueȱthroughoutȱtheȱday.ȱButȱIȱthinkȱinȱtheȱremainingȱ timeȱ todayȱweȇdȱ likeȱ toȱ discussȱ aȱ fewȱ otherȱ pointsȱwhichȱweȱ alwaysȱ considerȱinȱtheseȱseminars.ȱ

Oneȱ ofȱ theȱ pointsȱ isȱ thisȱ questionȱ ofȱ separation.ȱ Onceȱ weȱ formȱ theȱ thoughtȱofȱseparationȱȬȱtheȱimageȱandȱtheȱimaginationȱofȱseparationȱȬȱweȱ perceiveȱthingsȱandȱpeopleȱasȱseparate.ȱThenȱweȱmakeȱthemȱseparate,ȱasȱ

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whenȱweȱdrawȱaȱlineȱbetweenȱcountriesȱandȱperceiveȱtwoȱcountriesȱandȱ weȱthenȱcreateȱtwoȱcountries.ȱ

Soȱweȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱthoughȱourȱbodiesȱareȱindividual,ȱneverthelessȱtheyȱ areȱ capableȱ ofȱ aȱ closeȱ connectionȱ onȱ anotherȱ levelȱ throughȱ communication,ȱ whichȱ weȇveȱ talkedȱ about.ȱ Theȱ thoughtȱ processȱ isȱ aȱ fundamentallyȱ collectiveȱ systemȱ anyway.ȱYouȱwouldȱnotȱhaveȱ itȱ inȱ itsȱ presentȱ formȱexceptȱ throughȱaȱcultureȱandȱaȱsociety.ȱAȱ languageȱcouldȱ onlyȱexistȱthatȱway.ȱ

TheȱindividualityȱthatȱweȱhaveȱȬȱorȱthatȱweȱthinkȱweȱhaveȱȬȱisȱtoȱaȱlargeȱ extentȱ theȱproductȱofȱourȱculture,ȱwhichȱcreatesȱ theȱparticularȱ imageȱofȱ theȱ individual.ȱButȱallȱ theȱpeopleȱ inȱaȱcertainȱcultureȱhaveȱmoreȱorȱ lessȱ theȱsameȱ imageȱofȱtheirȱ individuality.ȱItȇsȱclearȱthatȱthoughtȱdeterminesȱ theȱquestionȱofȱwhatȱisȱconnectedȱorȱseparate,ȱhowȱyouȱseeȱit,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Inȱ ourȱ personalȱ consciousnessȱ thereȱ isȱ theȱ impressionȱ thatȱ thereȱ isȱ anȱ observerȱ andȱ anȱ observed,ȱ thereȱ isȱ aȱ thinkerȱwhoȱ producesȱ thoughtsȱ separateȱ fromȱhimself.ȱAndȱonceȱ thoughtȱhasȱ formedȱ theȱ imageȱofȱ theȱ selfȱasȱȇmeȇȱandȱȇIȇ,ȱthenȱthereȱisȱtheȱviewȱthatȱitȱisȱȇIȇȱwhoȱcreatesȱthought.ȱ Inȱotherȱwords,ȱ thoughtȱhasȱexplainedȱ itsȱoriginȱ throughȱ theȱ imageȱbyȱ attributingȱ itselfȱ toȱ thatȱ image,ȱ justȱasȱyouȱcouldȱattributeȱ theȱsoundȱofȱ theȱtelephoneȱtoȱtheȱimageȱinȱtheȱtelevisionȱsetȱandȱfeelȱitȱtoȱbeȱthere.ȱInȱaȱ similarȱway,ȱtheȱfeelingȱcouldȱbeȱcreatedȱthatȱsomewhereȱ inȱtheȱheadȱ isȱ theȱsourceȱofȱthought.ȱ

Also,ȱyouȱhaveȱ theȱdivisionȱbetweenȱ theȱselfȱandȱ theȱworld.ȱYouȱsay:ȱ ȇIȱ endȱatȱmyȱskin.ȱOutsideȱ isȱ theȱworld.ȇȱAndȱyouȱexperienceȱ itȱ thatȱway.ȱ Butȱthatȱexperienceȱcanȱbeȱveryȱvariable.ȱThereȇsȱtheȱexampleȱofȱaȱblindȱ manȱwithȱaȱstick.ȱIfȱheȱholdsȱtheȱstickȱtightlyȱheȱmayȱfeelȱthatȱheȱendsȱatȱ theȱendȱofȱtheȱstick;ȱbutȱ ifȱheȱ loosensȱhisȱhold,ȱthenȱheȱmayȱfeelȱthatȱheȱ

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endsȱatȱhisȱfingertips.ȱSimilarly,ȱifȱaȱpersonȱidentifiesȱhimselfȱasȱpartȱofȱaȱ countryȱheȱmayȱfeelȱthatȱheȱendsȱatȱtheȱboundaryȱofȱhisȱcountry,ȱandȱ ifȱ somebodyȱcrossesȱtheȱboundaryȱheȱfeelsȱattacked.ȱOrȱyouȱmayȱfeelȱyouȱ areȱoneȱwithȱ theȱuniverse.ȱOrȱviceȱversa,ȱyouȱhaveȱ theȱoppositeȱsenseȱ Ȭȱ theȱ thoughtȱwhichȱ triesȱ toȱgoȱ inward,ȱ inwardȱ toȱ theȱ veryȱ essence,ȱ theȱ coreȱofȱ theȱself,ȱdownȱ toȱoneȱpoint,ȱ thinkingȱ thatȱ thatȱpointȱ isȱ ȇmeȇȱandȱ theȱrestȱisȱbeingȱobservedȱbyȱme.ȱ

Butȱ itȇsȱallȱanȱ image.ȱ Itȱchangesȱaroundȱaccordingȱ toȱ theȱsituation.ȱThatȱ imageȱmayȱbeȱmoreȱcorrectȱorȱ lessȱcorrectȱ inȱvariousȱsituations.ȱWhereȱ theȱconnectionȱisȱcloseȱitȱmayȱbeȱaȱcorrectȱrepresentation,ȱandȱwhereȱitȇsȱ looseȱitȱisȱnot.ȱSoȱitȱwouldȱrequireȱseeingȱtheȱcoherenceȱofȱthatȱtoȱseeȱhowȱ itȱworksȱinȱeachȱcase.ȱ

Weȱ haveȱ thisȱ notion,ȱ then,ȱ thatȱ theȱ agent,ȱ theȱ thinker,ȱ createsȱ theȱ thought.ȱ Andȱ aȱ personȱ mayȱ identityȱ himselfȱ withȱ almostȱ anything.ȱ Descartesȱsaidȱ ȇIȱ think,ȱ thereforeȱ Iȱamȇ,ȱwhichȱmeantȱhisȱessentialȱbeingȱ wasȱ inȱ theȱactionȱofȱ thinkingȱ Ȭȱheȱ feltȱ thatȱ theȱactionȱdefinedȱhisȱbeing.ȱ Andȱmanyȱpeopleȱmayȱfeelȱthatȱwayȱfromȱtimeȱtoȱtime.ȱ

Now,ȱweȇreȱsuggestingȱthatȱthoughtȱ isȱaȱsystemȱbelongingȱtoȱtheȱwholeȱ cultureȱandȱsociety,ȱevolvingȱoverȱhistory,ȱandȱitȱcreatesȱtheȱimageȱofȱanȱ individualȱwhoȱ isȱ supposedȱ toȱ beȱ theȱ sourceȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Itȱ givesȱ theȱ senseȱofȱanȱindividualȱwhoȱisȱperceivedȱandȱexperienced,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱThisȱ wouldȱbeȱconduciveȱtoȱtheȱnextȱstep,ȱwhichȱisȱforȱthoughtȱtoȱclaimȱthatȱitȱ onlyȱtellsȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱareȱandȱthenȱtheȱindividualȱinsideȱdecidesȱ whatȱtoȱdoȱwithȱtheȱ informationȱ Ȭȱheȱchooses.ȱThisȱ isȱtheȱpictureȱwhichȱ emergedȱgradually:ȱthoughtȱtellsȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱareȱandȱthenȱ ȇyouȇȱ chooseȱhowȱtoȱactȱfromȱthatȱinformation.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Butȱ doesȱ thoughtȱ reallyȱ tellȱ youȱ howȱ thingsȱ are?ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thoughtȱ distortsȱ it.ȱ Onlyȱ observationȱ withoutȱ theȱ observerȱ canȱ tellȱ youȱ howȱ thingsȱreallyȱare,ȱbecauseȱ theȱ thinkerȱcanȱmanipulateȱ thoughtȱandȱ thenȱ heȱseesȱwhatȱheȱwantsȱtoȱsee.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Iȱ saidȱ onlyȱ thatȱ inȱ thisȱ pictureȱ orȱ image,ȱ thoughtȱ claimsȱ toȱ beȱ tellingȱyouȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱare.ȱThatȱisȱnotȱtoȱsayȱthatȱtheyȱareȱtheȱwayȱitȱ tellsȱ you.ȱ Toȱ aȱ certainȱ extentȱ itȱ givesȱ valuableȱ information,ȱwhenȱ itȇsȱ workingȱright.ȱButȱthoughtȱsaysȱȇthisȱisȱtheȱwayȱthingsȱare,ȱandȱyouȱȬȱtheȱ thinkerȱ Ȭȱ mustȱ decideȱ whatȱ toȱ doȇ.ȱ Andȱ thatȇsȱ allȱ misinformationȱ accordingȱtoȱwhatȱweȇreȱsaying.ȱ

Letȇsȱ sayȱ thatȱ youȱ haveȱ anȱ imageȱ ofȱ yourselfȱ asȱ goodȱ andȱ somethingȱ happensȱȬȱperhapsȱyourȱfriendȱdoesnȇtȱbackȱupȱthatȱimage.ȱYouȱfeelȱhurt.ȱ Thatȱ imageȱ isȱremovedȱandȱyouȇreȱdisturbed;ȱandȱafterȱ thatȱmomentȱofȱ disturbanceȱthereȱarisesȱtheȱthought:ȱȇWhatȱhappened?ȱIȇmȱhurt.ȇȱInsteadȱ ofȱtheȱpleasureȱwhichȱwasȱinȱtheȱimage,ȱtheȱreflexȱisȱpain.ȱ

Whatȱhasȱhappenedȱ isȱthatȱ theȱthoughtȱhasȱnowȱseparatedȱ itselfȱ inȱtwoȱ andȱ says:ȱ ȇThereȱ isȱ ȈmeȈȱ whoȱ isȱ hurt.ȱ Andȱ thereȱ isȱ ȈIȈ,ȱ whoȱ amȱ theȱ observer,ȱ lookingȱ atȱ theȱ hurt.ȇȱ Thisȱ willȱ createȱ aȱ conflictȱ becauseȱ theȱ minuteȱyouȱthinkȱthat,ȱitȇsȱimpliedȱthatȱtheȱoneȱwhoȱisȱlookingȱwillȱtryȱtoȱ stopȱ theȱhurtȱ andȱwillȱ fightȱ it.ȱButȱweȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ thatȱwonȇtȱwork,ȱ becauseȱthereȱisȱactuallyȱnothingȱbutȱaȱprocessȱofȱthoughtȱwhichȱcreatesȱ theȱimageȱofȱȇIȇȱandȱȇmeȇ.ȱTheyȱareȱbothȱtheȱsameȱgroundȱreallyȱȬȱnamely,ȱ thought.ȱTheyȱareȱallȱone.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Itȇsȱ interestingȱ thatȱ theȱ ȇmeȇȱhasȱbeenȱhurt,ȱ butȱ ȇIȇȱ amȱgoingȱ toȱ takeȱ revenge.ȱItȇsȱlikeȱtwoȱseparateȱthings.ȱ

Bohm:ȱUsuallyȱwhatȱ firstȱhappensȱ isȱ thatȱ theȱ ȇmeȇȱhasȱbeenȱhurtȱandȱ ȇIȇȱ mustȱ removeȱ orȱ getȱ ridȱ ofȱ theȱ pain.ȱ ȇWhatȱ canȱ Iȱ do?ȇȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ firstȱ reaction.ȱSoȱyouȱstartȱaȱ trainȱofȱ thought:ȱ ȇWhoȱdidȱ it?ȱWhoȇsȱ toȱblame?ȇȱ Andȱyouȱsay:ȱȇOK,ȱthatȱoneȇsȱtoȱblame.ȱIȱmustȱtakeȱrevenge.ȇȱThatȱwouldȱ beȱ oneȱ wayȱ out.ȱ Or,ȱ ȇthatȱ personȱ mustȱ apologizeȇ.ȱ Orȱ elseȱ anotherȱ reactionȱ wouldȱ beȱ toȱ say,ȱ ȇIȇȱ shouldȱ notȱ beȱ hurtȇ.ȱ Butȱ thenȱ thereȇsȱ aȱ conflict,ȱbecauseȱ theȱsameȱ thoughtȱprocessȱwhichȱmakesȱyouȱbeȱhurtȱ isȱ alsoȱfightingȱandȱsayingȱyouȱshouldȱnotȱbeȱhurt.ȱ

Thus,ȱyouȱhaveȱtheseȱtwoȱsituations,ȱtheseȱtwoȱmovements.ȱItȇsȱreallyȱallȱ one,ȱbutȱthereȱ isȱthatȱapparentȱdivisionȱwhichȱhasȱbeenȱbuiltȱupȱbyȱthisȱ processȱ ofȱ thought.ȱWeȱhaveȱ aȱ representationȱofȱ theȱ selfȱ asȱ capableȱofȱ beingȱ theȱobserverȱandȱ theȱobserved.ȱ Justȱasȱweȱ sayȱ ȇIȇȱ canȱ lookȱatȱmyȱ bodyȇ,ȱ soȱweȱ sayȱ ȇIȇȱ canȱ lookȱ insideȱ andȱ seeȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ beenȱ hurtȇ.ȱ Thatȱ analogyȱisȱdrawn,ȱbutȱitȱdoesnȇtȱwork.ȱTheȱprocessȱinȱwhichȱIȱlookȱatȱmyȱ bodyȱhasȱaȱcertainȱmeaning;ȱbutȱtheȱprocessȱinȱwhichȱthereȱisȱanȱobserverȱ whoȱ stepsȱbackȱ toȱ lookȱatȱ theȱhurtȱ insideȱhasȱnoȱmeaning,ȱbecauseȱ itȇsȱ justȱ twoȱ images.ȱ Itȱmightȱasȱwellȱbeȱgoingȱonȱ inȱaȱ televisionȱscreen.ȱ Itȇsȱ likeȱtheȱrainbow,ȱwhichȱisȱreallyȱnotȱthereȱbutȱhasȱaȱrealȱprocessȱbehindȱitȱ rainȱandȱlight.ȱ

Soȱ thereȱ isȱaȱprocessȱbehindȱallȱ this,ȱ creatingȱ thisȱ senseȱofȱanȱobserverȱ whoȱ isȱ supposedȱ toȱ doȱ something.ȱ Thatȱ observerȱ apparentlyȱ isȱ perceived.ȱAndȱ thenȱ thoughtȱcomesȱalong,ȱ takesȱ thatȱasȱ ifȱ itȱwasȱaȱ fact,ȱ andȱ proceedsȱ toȱ tryȱ toȱ overcomeȱ theȱ hurt.ȱ Whereasȱ ifȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ

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stopped,ȱthereȱwouldȱbeȱnoȱproblem.ȱChildrenȱhaveȱaȱsaying:ȱȇsticksȱandȱ stonesȱcanȱbreakȱmyȱbonesȱbutȱwordsȱcanȱneverȱhurtȱme.ȇȱItȱmayȱbeȱtrueȱ inȱaȱsense,ȱbutȱitȱdoesnȇtȱwork.ȱPeopleȱstillȱgetȱhurtȱbyȱnamesȱbecauseȱofȱ theȱthoughtȱwhichȱcreatesȱtheȱimage,ȱwhichȱproducesȱeitherȱpleasureȱorȱ hurt.ȱ

Now,ȱ inȱsoȱ farȱasȱyouȱhaveȱ theȱ imageȱorȱ fantasyȱwhichȱgivesȱpleasure,ȱ thatȱ sameȱ fantasyȱ turnsȱ aroundȱ toȱ giveȱ painȱ whenȱ theȱ oppositeȱ informationȱgetsȱ intoȱ it.ȱYouȱ areȱveryȱvulnerableȱ onceȱyouȱdependȱ onȱ fantasyȱorȱimageȱtoȱgiveȱpleasure,ȱbecauseȱthatȱcreatesȱtheȱsenseȱofȱȇmeȇ,ȱ andȱ thenȱcomesȱ theȱdivisionȱ Ȭȱwhenȱ theȱpleasureȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱandȱ theȱ struggleȱ andȱ theȱ fightȱ andȱ conflict,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Ifȱ thatȱdivisionȱdidȱnotȱ occurȱthereȱwouldȱbeȱnoȱconflict.ȱActually,ȱnoȱrealȱdivisionȱoccurs,ȱbutȱasȱ Iȇveȱalreadyȱsaid,ȱtheȱappearanceȱofȱdivisionȱtakesȱplaceȱinȱtheȱimage.ȱIfȱ thereȱwereȱnoȱ suchȱappearanceȱofȱdivisionȱ thereȱwouldȱbeȱnoȱoccasionȱ forȱ conflict.ȱ Thereȱ wouldȱ beȱ aȱ perceptionȱ thatȱ thisȱ isȱ thought.ȱ Thereȱ wouldȱ beȱ proprioceptionȱ ofȱ thought,ȱ expressedȱ inȱwordsȱ as:ȱ ȇthisȱ isȱ aȱ trainȱ ofȱ thoughtȱwhichȱproducesȱpain.ȇȱThenȱ thoughtȱwouldȱ justȱ stop,ȱ becauseȱyouȱdonȇtȱwantȱtheȱpain.ȱ

Butȱthereȱareȱallȱsortsȱofȱassumptions,ȱsuchȱas:ȱȇIȱamȱtooȱimportantȱtoȱgiveȱ upȱ onȱ thisȱ thought.ȱ Iȱ canȇtȱ allowȱmyselfȱ toȱ giveȱ upȱ theȱ pain.ȇȱ Isȱ thatȱ assumptionȱ clear?ȱ Itȇsȱ aȱ commonȱ one.ȱ Peopleȱ whoȱ areȱ hurtȱ haveȱ anȱ assumption:ȱ ȇIȇȱ canȇtȱ allowȱmyselfȱ toȱ giveȱ upȱ thatȱ painȱ becauseȱ thenȱ Iȱ wouldȱbeȱsortȱofȱnegatingȱmyself,ȱsayingȱthatȱIȱhaveȱnoȱimportance.ȱThatȱ cannotȱbeȱallowed.ȱȇItȇsȱabsolutelyȱnecessaryȱtoȱmaintainȱmyȱimportance.ȇȱ

Ifȱweȱhadȱ anȱ insightȱ rightȱ awayȱ intoȱ allȱ thisȱ Ȭȱ thatȱ theȱ observerȱ isȱ theȱ observed,ȱ asȱKrishnamurtiȱ soȱ oftenȱ saidȱ Ȭȱ thenȱ itȱwouldȱ allȱ evaporate.ȱ Theȱpointȱ isȱ thatȱweȱhaveȱaȱ resistanceȱ toȱ thatȱ insight.ȱWeȱhaveȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱthereȱisȱconfusionȱandȱincoherence.ȱAndȱweȱhaveȱtheȱfactȱthatȱweȱdoȱ

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notȱhaveȱperceptionȱwhichȱseesȱwhatȱisȱgoingȱon.ȱThereȱisȱthisȱchemistry,ȱ thisȱreflex,ȱwhichȱkeepsȱpeopleȱgoingȱinȱtheȱsameȱway.ȱTheȱchemistryȱisȱ affectedȱbyȱ theȱdivision,ȱandȱ theȱdivisionȱ isȱsustainedȱbyȱ theȱchemistryȱ becauseȱtheȱbodyȱnowȱdemandsȱrelief.ȱBeingȱdisturbedȱbyȱtheȱchemistry,ȱ theȱbodyȱdemandsȱrelief.ȱ

Supposeȱyouȱhurtȱyourȱarm.ȱYouȱwouldȱnoticeȱaȱdisturbanceȱandȱsayȱ ȇIȱ feelȱ painȇ.ȱAndȱ thenȱ theȱ thoughtȱwouldȱ comeȱ upȱ andȱ sayȱ ȇwhatȇsȱ theȱ causeȱofȱtheȱdisturbance?ȇ.ȱSoȱyouȱwouldȱsortȱofȱstepȱbackȱinȱyourȱmindȱ andȱ look,ȱ andȱ say:ȱ ȇOK,ȱ Iȱ seeȱ thatȱmyȱ armȱ hasȱ beenȱ hurt.ȱ Iȱmustȱ doȱ something.ȇȱ

ȱȱ

Thatȱwouldȱmakeȱsense,ȱbecauseȱtheȱthoughtȱandȱtheȱarmȱareȱnotȱreallyȱ thatȱ closelyȱ connected.ȱButȱwhenȱ itȱ comesȱ toȱ theȱpsychologicalȱpainȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱmakeȱsense.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱthereȱfirstȱbeȱaȱbodyȱimageȱformed?ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱbodyȱimageȱisȱalwaysȱthereȱinȱsomeȱsense.ȱWeȱalwaysȱsenseȱ ourȱbody.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱyouȇreȱnotȱ talkingȱaboutȱ theȱphysicalȱ image,ȱyouȇreȱ talkingȱofȱaȱ differentȱimage?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱYes.ȱWeȱ formȱaȱselfȬimage.ȱ Itȇsȱveryȱvague,ȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱ toȱbeȱ wellȱdefined.ȱItȇsȱjustȱȇmeȇ.ȱYouȱmayȱpointȱtoȱyourselfȱasȱbeingȱinȱtheȱheadȱ orȱchestȱorȱ solarȱplexusȱorȱ somewhere.ȱYouȱ feelȱ somewhereȱ insideȱ isȱaȱ pointȱorȱaȱsmallȱregionȱwhereȱȇyouȇȱare,ȱwhichȱisȱtheȱcentre.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱ thatȱ imageȱ beȱ howȱweȱ areȱ definedȱ byȱ ourȱ parents,ȱ byȱ theȱ teacher,ȱbyȱtheȱculture?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Allȱ ofȱ thatȱ createsȱ theȱ imageȱ andȱ thereforeȱ allȱ thatȱ contentȱ isȱ attributedȱtoȱtheȱimage.ȱJustȱasȱtheȱringingȱofȱtheȱbellȱisȱattributedȱtoȱtheȱ telephoneȱ inȱ theȱ televisionȱ image,ȱweȱ experienceȱ allȱ ofȱ thisȱ contentȱ asȱ existingȱwithinȱtheȱimage.ȱTheȱimage,ȱhowever,ȱisȱperceivedȱasȱreal.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱappearsȱthatȱweȱexistȱinȱthatȱimage.ȱ

Bohm:ȱAllȱourȱpropertiesȱ andȱqualitiesȱ areȱ inȱ thatȱ image.ȱWeȱ feelȱ thatȱ theyȱareȱthere.ȱIfȱyouȇreȱhurtȱyouȱwillȱfeelȱthatȱthereȱreallyȱisȱsomethingȱ insideȱwhichȱhasȱbeenȱhurt.ȱPeopleȱsay,ȱȇmyȱheartȱhasȱbeenȱbrokenȇ.ȱAndȱ inȱfactȱtheyȱfeelȱsomething,ȱbecauseȱinȱtheȱregionȱofȱtheȱchestȱorȱtheȱsolarȱ plexusȱthereȱisȱclearlyȱaȱgreatȱdisturbance.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Soȱ asȱweȱ continueȱ toȱ growȱ upȱ andȱ goȱ toȱ schoolȱ andȱmarry,ȱ andȱ whatever,ȱweȇreȱaddingȱtoȱtheȱimage?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱSocietyȱisȱaddingȱtoȱit,ȱsayingȱthatȱyouȱareȱthisȱsortȱofȱperson,ȱ youȱ areȱ thatȱ sort,ȱ youȱ shouldȱ beȱ this,ȱ andȱ soȱ on.ȱ Andȱ youȱ areȱ alsoȱ adding,ȱyouȇreȱdoingȱyourȱbitȱinȱit.ȱItȱallȱaddsȱtoȱbuildȱupȱtheȱimage.ȱAndȱ thatȱ imageȱ thenȱ reacts;ȱ itȇsȱ madeȱ upȱ ofȱ aȱ setȱ ofȱ reflexesȱ whichȱ actȱ accordingȱtoȱtheȱimage.ȱIfȱtheȱimageȱisȱthatȱȇIȱamȱgreatȇ,ȱthenȱtheȱactionȱisȱ thatȱȇIȱwouldȱlikeȱtoȱhearȱpeopleȱsayȱthatȇ.ȱOrȱelseȱIȱwouldȱsayȱitȱtoȱmyselfȱ orȱtryȱtoȱdoȱsomethingȱtoȱproveȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱitȇsȱalwaysȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱaȱsenseȱofȱincompleteness?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱisȱalwaysȱsensedȱasȱincomplete,ȱyes,ȱbecauseȱitȇsȱonlyȱanȱimageȱȬȱ itȱcouldȱneverȱbeȱcompleteȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱaboutȱtheȱculturalȱimage?ȱDoesnȇtȱourȱcultureȱhaveȱitsȱownȱselfȬ image?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱ fullȱofȱ selfȬimagesȱandȱ theyȱareȱallȱ contradictingȱeachȱother,ȱ justȱasȱourȱindividualȱselfȬimagesȱcontradictȱeachȱother.ȱ

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Q:ȱThenȱtheȱ individualȱ imageȱandȱtheȱculturalȱ imageȱareȱnotȱreallyȱtwoȱ distinctȱthings?ȱ

Bohm:ȱOurȱ individualȱ selfȬimagesȱmostlyȱ comeȱ fromȱ theȱ culture.ȱ Theȱ wordȱȇidiosyncrasyȇȱhasȱtheȱGreekȱrootȱmeaningȱȇprivateȱmixtureȇ.ȱThereȱ isȱ aȱ bigȱmixtureȱ ofȱ imagesȱ floatingȱ aroundȱ inȱ theȱ cultureȱ fromȱwhichȱ everybodyȱpicksȱhisȱownȱmixture.ȱEachȱindividualȱselectsȱimagesȱforȱoneȱ reasonȱorȱanother.ȱHeȱdoesnȇtȱdoȱitȱconsciously.ȱHeȱpicksȱupȱsomeȱofȱtheȱ imagesȱandȱrepelsȱsomeȱofȱ theȱothers;ȱheȱ findsȱothersȱrevolting,ȱandȱsoȱ onȱ

Q:ȱEvenȱourȱsexualȱimagesȱasȱaȱman,ȱasȱaȱwoman?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱ itȱ isȱallȱ influencedȱheavilyȱbyȱ theȱculture,ȱveryȱstrongly.ȱ Itȇsȱ allȱ there,ȱ andȱweȱ formȱ thisȱ image.ȱWeȱ haveȱ theȱ imageȱ thatȱ ȇIȱ doȱ theȱ thinkingȇ,ȱȇIȱamȱtheȱthinkerȇ.ȱButȱinȱfactȱtheȱcultureȱhasȱproducedȱmostȱofȱ theȱthought.ȱItȱsortȱofȱpassesȱthroughȱme,ȱIȱaddȱaȱbitȱtoȱit,ȱIȱdoȱthisȱorȱthatȱ toȱ it.ȱ Theȱ kindȱ ofȱ thoughtȱweȱ use,ȱwhichȱ isȱ communicated,ȱ originatesȱ basicallyȱ inȱ theȱwholeȱ societyȱ andȱ theȱ culture.ȱWeȱ haveȱ theȱ senseȱ ofȱ separationȱbecauseȱourȱcultureȱ tellsȱusȱ thatȱeachȱ individualȱ isȱseparate,ȱ andȱthereforeȱweȱperceiveȱitȱthatȱway.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Itȱ seemsȱ veryȱ hardȱ notȱ toȱ feelȱ thatȱ weȱ areȱ separate,ȱ sinceȱ weȇreȱ separateȱwithinȱourȱownȱskinsȱandȱweȱcanȱmoveȱaround.ȱItȇsȱjustȱaȱveryȱ difficultȱconceptȱtoȱtranscend.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbecauseȱtheȱbodyȱactuallyȱhasȱthisȱrelativeȱindependence.ȱButȱ evenȱthen,ȱasȱweȱsaid,ȱitȇsȱpossibleȱforȱaȱgroupȱtoȱbecomeȱoneȱbody.ȱAndȱ peopleȱreallyȱwantȱthat.ȱInȱtheȱfootballȱcrowdsȱtheyȱareȱreadyȱtoȱriskȱlifeȱ toȱhaveȱit.ȱSoȱitȱisȱpossibleȱtoȱhaveȱtheȱbodyȱasȱindividualȱorȱtheȱbodyȱasȱaȱ group.ȱButȱwhenȱ itȱcomesȱ toȱ theȱmind,ȱweȱhaveȱbecomeȱsoȱusedȱ toȱ theȱ notionȱ thatȱ theȱ mindȱ isȱ individualȱ thatȱ weȱ donȇtȱ noticeȱ theȱ plainȱ evidence,ȱallȱtheȱevidenceȱfromȱwhichȱyouȱcouldȱinferȱthatȱitȱisȱnot.ȱ

Thereȱ is,ȱ however,ȱ anȱ elementȱ ofȱ individuality.ȱ Inȱ soȱ farȱ asȱ thereȱ isȱ insightȱ into,ȱ letȇsȱsay,ȱ theȱactualȱphysicalȱneurochemicalȱprocessȱweȱareȱ talkingȱabout,ȱthatȱwouldȱreallyȱbeȱclosestȱtoȱindividuality.ȱWeȱcouldȱsayȱ thatȱ somethingȱofȱpossiblyȱ cosmicȱoriginȱoperatesȱdirectlyȱ inȱ theȱbodyȱ whenȱ thereȱ isȱ insight.ȱAndȱperhapsȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱclosestȱweȱwouldȱgetȱ toȱ trueȱindividuality.ȱ

Theȱwordȱȇindividualȇȱliterallyȱmeansȱȇundividedȇ.ȱButȱweȇveȱseenȱthatȱtheȱ individualȱwhichȱsocietyȱputsȱtogetherȱisȱhighlyȱdividedȱandȱinȱconflict.ȱ Soȱtheȱquestionȱisȱnotȱclearȱaboutȱwhatȱisȱindividual.ȱThereȱisȱaȱgreatȱdealȱ ofȱ incoherenceȱ there.ȱ Andȱ also,ȱ theȱ failureȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱ someȱ ofȱ theseȱ distinctionsȱareȱmerelyȱ ȇdottedȱ linesȇȱ leadsȱtoȱaȱwrongȱmeaning,ȱ itȱ leadsȱ toȱendlessȱconfusion.ȱ

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Now,ȱthatȱmightȱraiseȱtheȱquestionȱofȱwhatȱkindȱofȱfreedomȱthereȱisȱforȱ theȱperson.ȱAsȱlongȱasȱweȱareȱinȱthisȱsystem,ȱthereȱisȱveryȱlittleȱfreedom.ȱ Youȱcanȱ sayȱ ȇIȱdoȱwhatȱ Iȱwantȇ,ȱbutȱwhatȱyouȱwantȱ isȱ theȱ resultȱofȱ theȱ system.ȱ Weȱ areȱ wantingȱ thingsȱ whichȱ areȱ incoherentȱ andȱ creatingȱ misery.ȱAndȱweȇreȱnotȱfreeȱtoȱgiveȱthatȱup.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȱ thinkȱweȱ areȱ freeȱwhenȱweȱdoȱwhatȱweȱwant,ȱ especiallyȱwhenȱ weȇreȱyoungȱandȱweȱdonȇtȱrealizeȱthatȱtheȱwantȱitselfȱpreventsȱfreedom.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱwantȱcomesȱfromȱtheȱconditioning.ȱ

Q:ȱ Isȱ whatȱ youȇreȱ talkingȱ aboutȱ freedomȱ ofȱ choice,ȱ notȱ choicelessȱ freedom?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱfreedomȱatȱthatȱlevelȱisȱnotȱveryȱsignificant.ȱTheȱquestionȱis:ȱ couldȱfreedomȱhaveȱaȱdeeperȱmeaning?ȱIȱthinkȱthisȱisȱconnectedȱwithȱtheȱ questionȱ ofȱ necessity.ȱWeȱ mayȱ seeȱ necessityȱ asȱ external,ȱ thatȱ certainȱ thingsȱ areȱnecessaryȱ Ȭnecessityȱwonȇtȱ beȱ turnedȱ aside,ȱ andȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ turnȱasideȱorȱitȱcrushesȱus.ȱButȱweȱhaveȱourȱownȱinternalȱnecessityȱwhichȱ

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mayȱ conflictȱ withȱ that,ȱ andȱ thenȱ weȱ haveȱ aȱ struggle.ȱ Theȱ externalȱ necessityȱmayȱbeȱ tooȱpowerfulȱandȱyouȱgetȱcrushed;ȱorȱyouȱmayȱ tryȱ toȱ dominateȱandȱ imposeȱyourȱownȱnecessity.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱsortȱofȱpatternȱweȱ take.ȱWeȱ thinkȱ thatȱ toȱbeȱableȱ toȱ imposeȱourȱownȱnecessityȱ isȱ freedom;ȱ butȱinȱfactȱIȇmȱsayingȱthatȇsȱstillȱpartȱofȱtheȱsameȱsystem.ȱ

Soȱweȱhaveȱ toȱgetȱ clearȱonȱnecessityȱandȱ contingency.ȱFreedomȱwouldȱ requireȱ someȱ contingency,ȱ inȱ theȱ senseȱ thatȱ ifȱ thingsȱ couldnȇtȱ beȱ otherwiseȱ thenȱ thereȱwouldȱ beȱ noȱ freedom.ȱ Butȱ freedomȱwouldȱ alsoȱ requireȱsomeȱnecessity,ȱbecauseȱifȱthereȱwereȱnoȱnecessityȱourȱintentionsȱ wouldȱ haveȱ noȱ meaning.ȱ Weȱ mightȱ intendȱ toȱ doȱ something,ȱ butȱ ifȱ nothingȱholdsȱwithȱanyȱnecessityȱthenȱanythingȱmayȱhappen,ȱnoȱmatterȱ whatȱweȱintend.ȱTherefore,ȱinȱsomeȱwayȱbothȱnecessityȱandȱcontingencyȱ areȱinvolvedȱinȱfreedom.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱ didnȇtȱ understandȱ whatȱ youȱ justȱ saidȱ aboutȱ necessityȱ andȱ contingency.ȱ

Bohm:ȱNecessityȱ isȱwhatȱ cannotȱbeȱotherwiseȱandȱ contingencyȱ isȱwhatȱ canȱbe.ȱItȇsȱbecauseȱthingsȱcanȱbeȱotherwiseȱthatȱyouȱareȱpossiblyȱfreeȱtoȱ doȱvariousȱ things.ȱButȱ ifȱ thingsȱwereȱ totallyȱcontingentȱyouȱwouldȱnotȱ haveȱanyȱfreedom,ȱyouȱwouldnȇtȱbeȱableȱtoȱcountȱonȱanything.ȱIȱcouldnȇtȱ countȱonȱtheȱnecessityȱofȱthisȱtableȱtoȱremainȱaȱtable.ȱIȱcouldȱsayȱȇIȱwantȱ toȱputȱ theȱcupȱonȱ theȱ tableȇ,ȱbutȱmeanwhileȱ theȱ tableȱmightȱ turnȱ intoȱaȱ cloudȱofȱgas.ȱSoȱinȱsomeȱwayȱwhichȱisȱhardȱtoȱexpress,ȱfreedomȱrequiresȱ bothȱnecessityȱandȱcontingency.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱcontingencyȱisȱnotȱtheȱsameȱthingȱasȱchoice,ȱisȱit?ȱȱ

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Bohm:ȱNo,ȱcontingencyȱreallyȱmeansȱȇitȱcanȱbeȱotherwiseȇ.ȱȱ

Q:ȱWhereasȱchoiceȱisȱsomethingȱthatȇsȱproducedȱinȱtheȱmindȱȬȱanȱimageȱ orȱimagesȱofȱalternativesȱwhichȱtheȱmindȱtrunksȱitȱhas?ȱ

Bohm:ȱBetweenȱpossibilitiesȱyouȱmayȱchoose,ȱsayingȱȇIȱpreferȱthisȱtoȱthatȇ.ȱ

ȱȱ

Q:ȱButȱdoesȱitȱhaveȱaȱbaseȱinȱreality?ȱItȇsȱ justȱanȱimageȱproducedȱbyȱtheȱ mind.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYouȱmayȱhaveȱ severalȱalternativesȱwhichȱareȱcorrect;ȱ thereȱmayȱ beȱseveralȱpossibleȱroadsȱtoȱgoȱtoȱaȱcertainȱplace.ȱOrȱsupposeȱIȱcomeȱtoȱaȱ crossroads.ȱ Oneȱ roadȱwillȱ takeȱmeȱ here,ȱ oneȱwillȱ takeȱmeȱ there;ȱ ifȱ Iȱ chooseȱ thisȱ roadȱ Iȇllȱgoȱhere,ȱ andȱ ifȱ Iȱ chooseȱ thatȱ roadȱ Iȱwillȱgoȱ there.ȱ ThusȱifȱIȱwantȱtoȱgoȱthere,ȱIȱshouldȱchooseȱthatȱroad.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȇsȱallȱaȱkindȱofȱ fictionȱ inȱaȱway,ȱbecauseȱ thatȱsortȱofȱ impliesȱ thereȇsȱ somethingȱthatȱchooses.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱtheȱlanguageȱweȱuse.ȱIȱcouldȱputȱitȱthatȱitȱmyȱintentionȱisȱtoȱ goȱthere,ȱIȱmustȱpickȱthisȱroad.ȱThoughtȱcouldȱtellȱmeȱthatȱcorrectly.ȱIfȱIȱ wantȱtoȱgoȱthereȱIȱmustȱgoȱonȱthatȱroad,ȱbutȱifȱIȱwantȱtoȱgoȱsomewhereȱ

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elseȱ Iȱmustȱ goȱ onȱ anotherȱ road.ȱ Thoughtȱ tellsȱmeȱ that.ȱ Thoseȱ areȱ theȱ alternatives.ȱ

Q:ȱToȱgetȱwhereȱyouȇreȱsupposedȱtoȱbeȱgoing,ȱthough,ȱyouȱcanȱonlyȱtakeȱ oneȱturn.ȱIȱmean,ȱthereȇsȱactionȱinȱrealityȱandȱthereȱisȱchoiceȱinȱtheȱrealmȱ ofȱimages.ȱArenȇtȱtheyȱtwoȱdifferentȱthings?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ butȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ theȱ presentationȱ ofȱ alternativesȱ isȱ aȱ correctȱ representationȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ couldȱgive.ȱButȱwhenȱyouȱ sayȱ thatȱ youȱchooseȱthisȱalternative,ȱitȇsȱnotȱclearȱwhatȱitȱmeansȱȬȱwhoȱchooses,ȱorȱ whatȱ chooses,ȱ orȱ howȱ itȱ getsȱ chosen.ȱ Evenȱ ifȱ thatȱwereȱ free,ȱ itȱwouldȱ seemȱthatȱitȇsȱnotȱaȱveryȱsignificantȱkindȱofȱfreedom.ȱItȱdoesȱseemȱthatȱitȱ isȱnotȱfree,ȱhowever,ȱbecauseȱ ifȱyourȱchoiceȱ isȱconditionedȱthenȱyouȱareȱ notȱfree.ȱ

Iȇmȱtryingȱtoȱsayȱthatȱfreedomȱmayȱbeȱsomethingȱdeeper.ȱWeȱmightȱthinkȱ ofȱ anȱ artist,ȱ aȱ creativeȱ artist,ȱwhoȱ isȱ creatingȱ aȱworkȱ ofȱ art.ȱThereȱ areȱ manyȱpossibleȱcontingenciesȱȬȱwaysȱofȱputtingȱhisȱmaterialsȱhereȱorȱthereȱ andȱwithȱdifferentȱtechniques.ȱItȇsȱopen.ȱThatȇsȱtheȱfieldȱinȱwhichȱheȱcanȱ work.ȱ Andȱ thenȱ fromȱ someȱ perceptionȱ Ȭȱ byȱ someȱ senseȱ ofȱ internalȱ necessity,ȱ someȱ creativeȱ perceptionȱ ofȱ necessityȱ Ȭȱ heȱ mustȱ beginȱ toȱ developȱhowȱthisȱisȱtoȱbeȱdone.ȱOtherwiseȱitȱwonȇtȱholdȱtogether,ȱitȱwonȇtȱ haveȱanyȱvalueȱorȱanyȱmeaning.ȱInȱotherȱwords,ȱfreedomȱisȱtheȱcreativeȱ perceptionȱofȱaȱnewȱorderȱofȱnecessityȱ

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Q:ȱButȱoddlyȱenough,ȱthatȱnecessityȱisnȇtȱanythingȱIȱȇhaveȇ.ȱItȇsȱmoreȱlike:ȱ ȇOh,ȱIȇmȱsittingȱinȱthisȱchair.ȱHowȱinteresting.ȇȱIȱmean,ȱitȱisnȇtȱsomethingȱIȱ know,ȱorȱmoveȱfrom.ȱ

Bohm:ȱWell,ȱ reallyȱ itȇsȱ creative.ȱAndȱ thatȱ creationȱ canȱ alsoȱ enterȱ intoȱ scienceȱandȱtechnology,ȱandȱcreateȱallȱsortsȱofȱthings.ȱInȱfact,ȱeverythingȱ thatȱweȇveȱ createdȱ cameȱ aboutȱultimatelyȱ inȱ thatȱway.ȱ Iȇmȱ sayingȱ thatȱ freedomȱisȱtheȱperceptionȱandȱcreationȱofȱaȱnewȱorderȱofȱnecessity.ȱ

Inȱthisȱwayȱweȱwouldȱsayȱthatȱnecessityȱisȱinvolvedȱinȱfreedom.ȱInȱotherȱ words,ȱweȱ donȇtȱ getȱ freeȱ ofȱ necessityȱ butȱ freedomȱ isȱ first.ȱOneȱ ofȱ ourȱ picturesȱ isȱ thatȱ necessityȱ isȱ gettingȱ inȱ theȱwayȱ ofȱ ourȱ freedom,ȱ thatȱ ifȱ weȇreȱstuckȱbyȱnecessityȱweȱareȱnotȱfree.ȱIfȱweȱareȱboundȱbyȱfourȱwallsȱ thenȱweȱcanȇtȱgetȱout.ȱThatȇsȱoneȱofȱtheȱviewsȱweȱhaveȱȬȱthatȱnecessityȱisȱ external.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱseemsȱtoȱmeȱthatȱ inȱaȱsenseȱallȱoneȱcanȱeverȱbeȱfreeȱtoȱdoȱ isȱbeȱanȱ innocentȱbystander.ȱOneȱreallyȱcanȇtȱdoȱanythingȱotherȱthanȱthat.ȱ

Bohm:ȱButȱ stillȱyouȱareȱdeeplyȱ involvedȱ inȱ thisȱ creativeȱact.ȱYouȱdonȇtȱ controlȱtheȱcreativeȱact.ȱItȇsȱcomingȱfromȱtheȱsameȱsourceȱasȱinsight.ȱ

Q:ȱSaintȱAugustineȱsaidȱȇLetȱgo,ȱandȱletȱGodȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱ impliesȱ thatȱpeopleȱsawȱ thisȱunconditionedȱsourceȱasȱGod.ȱ Peopleȱmayȱgiveȱitȱvariousȱnamesȱatȱvariousȱtimes.ȱ

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Q:ȱIȇdȱstillȱ likeȱtoȱconsiderȱcontingencyȱandȱnecessityȱ inȱgeneral.ȱWouldȱ thisȱbeȱanȱillustrationȱthatȱmakesȱanyȱsense?ȱIȱwasȱlisteningȱtoȱaȱchamberȱ musicȱ concertȱofȱ someȱveryȱnewȱmusic.ȱ Itȱ soundedȱasȱ ifȱ theȱ composerȱ hadȱchosenȱthingsȱwithȱtotalȱcontingency;ȱbutȱafterȱlisteningȱforȱaȱwhile,ȱ thereȱbeganȱ toȱbeȱaȱcertainȱ inevitabilityȱsoȱ thatȱafterȱeachȱnoteȱ theȱnextȱ noteȱmadeȱsense.ȱEvenȱthoughȱIȱcouldnȇtȱconceptualizeȱtheȱpattern,ȱthereȱ seemedȱtoȱbeȱsomeȱnecessityȱcomingȱthrough.ȱ

Bohm:ȱIfȱheȱwasȱaȱgenuineȱartist,ȱthereȱwasȱaȱnecessityȱbehindȱit.ȱWhenȱ somebodyȱ comesȱoutȱwithȱaȱnewȱorderȱofȱnecessity,ȱotherȱpeopleȱmayȱ notȱseeȱ itȱrightȱawayȱandȱ itȱlooksȱtoȱthemȱ justȱ likeȱcontingency.ȱSoȱtheyȱ sayȱ ȇthisȱ isȱ rubbishȇ.ȱ Inȱ manyȱ casesȱ itȱ mayȱ beȱ rubbish,ȱ butȱ thenȱ occasionallyȱitȱisnȇt.ȱ

Q:ȱCanȱnecessityȱbeȱfeltȱbyȱanȱimpulse,ȱanȱimpetus?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱ feltȱ thatȱ way,ȱ butȱ alsoȱ thatȱ feelingȱ couldȱ comeȱ fromȱ theȱ conditioningȱ asȱ well.ȱ Mozartȱ himselfȱ saidȱ thatȱ heȱ sawȱ theȱ wholeȱ compositionȱallȱatȱonce.ȱSomehowȱheȱsawȱtheȱwholeȱnecessityȱofȱit,ȱandȱ

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thenȱheȱsortȱofȱunfoldedȱit.ȱIfȱthatȱwasȱtheȱcase,ȱitȱwasȱaȱkindȱofȱgiganticȱ flashȱofȱinsightȱthatȱcreatedȱtheȱwholeȱthing.ȱAndȱyouȱcanȇtȱsayȱwhereȱitȱ comesȱfrom.ȱTheȱsameȱasȱwithȱanyȱinsight,ȱhavingȱbeenȱcreatedȱitȱaffectsȱ theȱbrainȱ andȱ thenȱ theȱbrainȱworksȱ itȱoutȱ Ȭhowȱ toȱplayȱ theȱmusic,ȱ theȱ individualȱnotes,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Thisȱsuggestsȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱtremendousȱpotentialȱforȱcreativity;ȱandȱthatȱ weȱcouldȱnotȱonlyȱhaveȱtheȱcreationȱofȱnewȱordersȱofȱnecessityȱinȱartȱorȱ inȱ science,ȱ butȱ thatȱ maybeȱ weȱ shouldȱ lookȱ atȱ culture,ȱ societyȱ andȱ ourselvesȱ inȱ theȱ sameȱwayȱ Ȭȱ lookȱ atȱ itȱ asȱ anȱ art,ȱ aȱ creativeȱ art.ȱ Theȱ dialogueȱ isȱ potentiallyȱ aȱ creativeȱ art;ȱ namely,ȱ newȱ ordersȱ ofȱ necessityȱ mayȱariseȱifȱweȱsustainȱit.ȱ

Iȱ donȇtȱ knowȱ howȱ easilyȱ itȱ cameȱ toȱ Mozart,ȱ butȱ theyȱ sayȱ thatȱ toȱ Beethovenȱitȱwasȱmoreȱofȱaȱstruggle.ȱHeȱhadȱtoȱsustainȱthisȱwork.ȱAndȱifȱ weȱsustainȱaȱdialogueȱveryȱseriously,ȱthenȱitȱbecomesȱpossibleȱthatȱthereȱ willȱbeȱsomethingȱcreativeȱandȱnewȱȬȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱtheȱmicrocosm,ȱtheȱ germ,ȱ thatȱ couldȱ thenȱ communicateȱ it.ȱ Inȱ otherȱ words,ȱ thatȱ whichȱ appearsȱtoȱbeȱ justȱaȱlotȱofȱmeaninglessȱcontingencyȱisȱtheȱfieldȱinȱwhichȱ someȱnewȱorderȱofȱcreativeȱnecessityȱmightȱcome.ȱAndȱoutȱofȱ thatȱcanȱ comeȱaȱnewȱculture,ȱaȱnewȱsociety.ȱ

Thatȱ isȱ theȱ suggestionȱ Iȱ wantȱ toȱ make:ȱ thatȱ thisȱ notionȱ ofȱ artistic,ȱ scientificȱcreativityȱ shouldȱbeȱextendedȱ intoȱallȱ theseȱareas,ȱ ratherȱ thanȱ fragmentingȱandȱsayingȱȇitȱisȱvalidȱhere,ȱbutȱthereȱweȱgoȱtheȱoldȱwayȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱThisȱsuggestsȱthatȱnecessityȱ isȱnothingȱthatȱIȱhave,ȱbutȱratherȱIȱplaceȱ myselfȱatȱtheȱdisposalȱofȱnecessity.ȱPeopleȱreallyȱcanȇtȱknowȱwhatȱtheyȇreȱ

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supposedȱtoȱdoȱwhenȱtheyȱcomeȱtoȱaȱdialogueȱgroup,ȱbutȱinȱsomeȱsenseȱ theyȱareȱȇavailableȇ.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȱ creativeȱ necessityȱ arisesȱ inȱ thisȱmovementȱ betweenȱ them.ȱ AndȱasȱwithȱMozartȱȬȱinȱaȱwayȱyouȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱheȱdidnȇtȱdoȱthisȱthing,ȱ itȱjustȱhappenedȱtoȱhim.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱtheȱmeaningȱthatȱisȱsharedȱbeȱtheȱnecessity?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ includesȱ theȱ necessity.ȱ Toȱ beginȱ with,ȱ theȱ meaningȱ isȱ theȱ necessityȱofȱdialogue.ȱButȱwhenȱweȱgetȱthroughȱallȱtheseȱbarriersȱwhichȱ weȇveȱ beenȱ talkingȱ about,ȱ thenȱ maybeȱ withȱ theȱ freeȱ flowȱ ofȱ communication,ȱwithȱ thatȱ senseȱofȱoneness,ȱ anotherȱorderȱofȱnecessityȱ couldȱ ariseȱwhichȱwasȱ altogether.ȱDoȱ youȱ seeȱwhatȱ Iȇmȱ drivingȱ at?ȱ Itȱ wouldȱ beȱ aȱ kindȱ ofȱ artisticȱ creation,ȱ butȱ itȱwouldȱ haveȱ theȱ rigourȱ ofȱ scientificȱthoughtȱasȱwell.ȱ

Q:ȱ Ifȱ theȱnewȱ societyȱonceȱ tookȱhold,ȱwouldȱ thereȱeverȱbeȱnoȱneedȱ forȱ dialogue?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱTheȱdialogueȱmightȱbecomeȱnatural,ȱ inȱ theȱ senseȱofȱ thoseȱ earlyȱ peopleȱwhoȱjustȱgotȱtogetherȱandȱtalked.ȱ

Q:ȱWhatȱIȇmȱtryingȱtoȱaskȱis:ȱitȱthatȱpollutionȱwithinȱtheȱsystemȱisȱended,ȱ wouldȱtheȱsystemȱthenȱoperateȱwithoutȱaȱneedȱforȱdialogue?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱwouldnȇtȱneedȱ formalȱdialogue,ȱbutȱweȱwouldȱ stillȱneedȱ toȱ talk.ȱPollutionȱ isȱ liableȱ toȱarise.ȱButȱ ifȱweȱareȱveryȱclearȱandȱsharpȱandȱ rapidȱaboutȱit,ȱitȱwonȇtȱgetȱveryȱfar.ȱ

Q:ȱHowȱaboutȱindividualȱdialogue?ȱTheȱmoreȱtheȱdeconditioningȱcomesȱ about,ȱisȱthereȱlessȱneedȱforȱdialogue?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱwouldnȇtȱ needȱ dialogueȱ asȱ aȱwayȱ ofȱ repairing,ȱ butȱ ratherȱ communicationȱ wouldȱ takeȱ placeȱ asȱ aȱ creativeȱ actȱ Ȭlikeȱ theȱ artȱ ofȱ communication.ȱ Inȱ otherȱ words,ȱ weȱ wouldnȇtȱ beȱ gettingȱ togetherȱ primarilyȱforȱtheȱsakeȱofȱovercomingȱorȱdealingȱwithȱallȱtheȱmess,ȱratherȱ itȱwouldȱhaveȱanotherȱmeaning.ȱ

Q:ȱInȱtheȱbeginningȱofȱdialogue,ȱisnȇtȱthereȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱaȱlotȱofȱpollution?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱIȇmȱsayingȱweȱhaveȱtoȱgoȱthroughȱthat,ȱbecauseȱweȇveȱgotȱit.ȱ

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Q:ȱYouȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱwhenȱweȇreȱ startingȱdialogue,ȱweȱneedȱ toȱ letȱ theȱ pollutionȱcomeȱout.ȱTheȱaimȱdoesnȇtȱseemȱtoȱbeȱtoȱgetȱridȱofȱincoherenceȱ immediatelyȱȬȱrather,ȱtoȱletȱitȱemerge.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱletȱitȱcomeȱout.ȱWeȱcanȇtȱgetȱridȱofȱit,ȱanyȱmoreȱthanȱMozartȱ couldȱsomehowȱforceȱthatȱperceptionȱtoȱhappen.ȱ

Q:ȱActuallyȱyouȱdonȇtȱneedȱtoȱletȱitȱcomeȱoutȱȬȱitȱcomesȱoutȱbyȱitself.ȱ

Q:ȱNo,ȱweȱusuallyȱstopȱitȱifȱitȇsȱcomingȱout.ȱ

Bohm:ȱEvenȱ then,ȱ ȇweȇȱdonȇtȱ stopȱ it.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ reflexesȱwhichȱ stopȱ it.ȱButȱ thoughtȱisȱalwaysȱsayingȱthatȱthoughtȱdidnȇtȱdoȱit.ȱItȱsaysȱȇyouȱdidȱitȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱCouldȱweȱputȱ itȱ that,ȱ inȱ theȱprocessȱofȱdialogueȱpeopleȱwouldȱ startȱ seeingȱ theȱ incongruenceȱ andȱ theȱ incoherenceȱ ofȱ thought?ȱTheyȱwouldȱ realizeȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ defenceȱ andȱprotectionȱ ofȱ theȱ imageȱ Ȭȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ pretending?ȱAsȱ thatȱ drops,ȱ peopleȱ openȱ themselvesȱ upȱ forȱ somethingȱ differentȱtoȱcomeȱthrough.ȱAndȱitȱcanȱunfoldȱtoȱeachȱpersonȱinȱdifferentȱ ways.ȱ

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Bohm:ȱTheȱbrainȱandȱ theȱ systemȱopenȱupȱ toȱ somethingȱdifferent.ȱThatȱ differenceȱ canȱ beȱ somethingȱ ofȱ creativeȱ significance,ȱ evenȱ ofȱ cosmicȱ significanceȱ—ȱpossiblyȱcontactȱwithȱsomethingȱbeyondȱ justȱ theȱcultureȱ andȱtheȱsociety.ȱ

Q:ȱButȱyouȇreȱrequiredȱtoȱmoveȱoutȱofȱtheȱincoherence.ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱbecauseȱallȱthatȱincoherenceȱmuddlesȱupȱtheȱbrain,ȱitȱcreatesȱ theȱsmog.ȱTheȱbrainȱisȱnotȱableȱtoȱworkȱright.ȱItȇsȱpoisonedȱinȱsomeȱway.ȱ

Theȱbrainȱisȱaȱmaterialȱsystem,ȱbutȱitȱisȱinfinitelyȱsubtleȱandȱcanȱrespondȱ toȱ theȱ creative.ȱ Ifȱoneȱbrainȱ suchȱasȱMozartȇsȱ couldȱdoȱ this,ȱ itȱ suggestsȱ thatȱ itȱ shouldȱ beȱ aȱpotentialȱ inȱ generalȱ Ȭȱnotȱnecessarilyȱ inȱmusic,ȱ butȱ somewhere,ȱinȱsomeȱfield.ȱMozartȱmayȱhaveȱhadȱsomeȱunusualȱtalentȱorȱ structureȱwhichȱwasȱgoodȱ forȱmusic;ȱbutȱ thatȱ creativeȱpotential,ȱwhichȱ isnȇtȱrestrictedȱ toȱanyȱparticularȱ field,ȱshouldȱbeȱavailableȱ toȱeverybodyȱ withinȱwhateverȱheȱcanȱdo.ȱAndȱitȱwouldȱbeȱimportantȱforȱpeopleȱtoȱseeȱ that.ȱ Iȱ thinkȱ thatȱ theȱmoreȱ civilizationȱhasȱdeveloped,ȱ theȱmoreȱ itȱhadȱ tendedȱ toȱ focusȱ onȱ allȱ theseȱ otherȱ thingsȱ sayingȱ thatȱ creativityȱ isȱ primarilyȱforȱtheȱsakeȱofȱtheȱeconomyȱorȱtoȱprovideȱentertainment,ȱorȱforȱ someȱotherȱpurposeȱlikeȱthat.ȱ

Soȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱ suggestion:ȱ thatȱ thereȱ couldȱ ariseȱ aȱ freedomȱ whichȱ isȱ collectiveȱasȱwellȱasȱindividual.ȱWeȱareȱnotȱfreeȱatȱall,ȱasȱlongȱasȱweȱareȱ stuckȱwithȱallȱthisȱstuff.ȱ

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Q:ȱAndȱaȱcultureȱwhichȱwantsȱtoȱdominateȱitsȱcitizensȱwill,ȱofȱcourse,ȱnotȱ encourageȱcreativity,ȱbecauseȱtheyȱdonȇtȱwantȱpeopleȱtoȱbeȱcreative.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheȱcultureȱwantsȱ toȱdefendȱ itself.ȱAndȱweȱsayȱallȱofȱ thatȱreallyȱ loomsȱveryȱlarge.ȱButȱactuallyȱitȇsȱaȱveryȱsmallȱthing.ȱItȱisȱsomethingȱveryȱ insubstantialȱ Ȭȱ justȱ veryȱ ephemeralȱ thoughtsȱwhichȱ areȱ circulatingȱ allȱ overȱtheȱsociety.ȱ

Q:ȱ Thinkȱ ofȱ howȱ manyȱ culturesȱ andȱ empiresȱ haveȱ collapsedȱ inȱ theȱ historyȱ ofȱ theȱ world.ȱ Maybeȱ thisȱ isȱ theȱ timeȱ thatȱ theȱ culturesȱ areȱ collectivelyȱ collapsing,ȱ andȱ aȱ newȱ culture,ȱ aȱ newȱ orderȱ isȱ comingȱ up.ȱ Maybeȱthisȱisȱtheȱmicrocosmȱofȱwhatȱisȱhappening.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ couldȱ be.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱ knowȱ forȱ sure.ȱButȱ theȱpointȱ is:ȱ theȱnewȱ cultureȱwillȱariseȱfirstȱbyȱourȱseeingȱtheȱmeaningȱofȱthisȱwholeȱsituationȱ andȱseeingȱtheȱvalueȱofȱ it.ȱAndȱthenȱtheȱparticularȱpurposesȱasȱ toȱwhatȱ weȱhaveȱ toȱdoȱwillȱ emergeȱasȱweȱgoȱalongȱoneȱpurposeȱafterȱanother,ȱ ratherȱthanȱstartingȱwithȱaȱpurposeȱwhichȱisȱfixed.ȱ

Q:ȱ Iȱwantȱ toȱ ask:ȱ isnȇtȱ thereȱ onlyȱ oneȱ energy?ȱ Itȇsȱ anȱ illusionȱ thatȱ theȱ energyȱ ofȱ loveȱ isȱ differentȱ fromȱ theȱ energyȱ ofȱ violence.ȱ Itȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ energy,ȱonlyȱ inȱviolenceȱ itȱ isȱpolluted.ȱThisȱdivisionȱcreatesȱviolence.ȱ Ifȱ

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weȱcondemnȱviolence,ȱorȱitsȱoppositeȱnonȬviolence,ȱthatȱcondemnationȱisȱ merelyȱanȱ idea.ȱTheȱ thoughtȱ createsȱ theȱ imageȱandȱ theȱdivision.ȱButȱ ifȱ thereȱisȱnoȱdivision,ȱthenȱthisȱenergyȱinȱviolenceȱisȱsetȱfreeȱȬȱitȱtransforms.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱtrue.ȱWeȇreȱsayingȱthatȱtheȱpeopleȱinȱaȱsituationȱofȱhateȱandȱ violenceȱareȱinȱaȱsituationȱconnectingȱthemȱwithȱaȱlotȱofȱenergy.ȱAndȱthisȱ canȱtransformȱintoȱanotherȱkind,ȱwhichȱisȱfriendshipȱandȱfellowshipȱandȱ love.ȱButȱthatȱrequiresȱthatȱweȱtakeȱthisȱseriouslyȱandȱreallyȱsustainȱtheȱ workȱofȱcommunicatingȱȬȱofȱdialogueȱȬȱifȱweȱareȱgoingȱtoȱbeȱableȱtoȱdoȱitȱ together.ȱ

Andȱitȇsȱessentialȱtoȱdoȱthisȱtogetherȱbecauseȱasȱanȱindividualȱitȱwillȱhaveȱ aȱ limitedȱmeaning.ȱDoingȱ itȱ togetherȱmeansȱ thatȱweȇreȱcommunicating,ȱ facingȱallȱtheseȱissuesȱandȱwhateverȱhappensȱȬȱpersistingȱandȱsustainingȱ theȱworkȱevenȱwhenȱitȱbecomesȱdifficultȱandȱunpleasant.ȱTheȱfactȱisȱweȱ areȱ violent,ȱ weȱ haveȱ allȱ that.ȱ Toȱ imagineȱ weȱ donȇtȱ haveȱ itȱ willȱ beȱ meaningless.ȱSoȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ sayȱ thatȱweȱhaveȱ it.ȱAndȱweȱhaveȱ toȱ stayȱ withȱit.ȱWeȱperceiveȱit.ȱWeȱneedȱtoȱperceiveȱtheȱrealȱmeaningȱofȱit,ȱwhichȱ isȱ thatȱ weȱ areȱ boundȱ togetherȱ byȱ thisȱ physicalȱ thingȱ whichȱ weȱ callȱ ȇviolenceȇ.ȱ

Q:ȱItȱseemsȱthatȱweȱseeȱappearancesȱdifferentlyȱandȱweȱseeȱourselvesȱasȱ separateȱbecauseȱourȱawarenessȱisȱincoherent.ȱButȱonceȱweȱgoȱintoȱthisȱitȱ becomesȱcoherentȱandȱextremelyȱpowerful.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ isȱ veryȱpowerfulȱ becauseȱ itȇsȱ allȱworkingȱ togetherȱ insteadȱ ofȱ beingȱinȱdifferentȱdirections.ȱItȱdoesnȇtȱcancelȱoutȱbutȱitȱworksȱtogether.ȱIȱ

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sometimesȱgiveȱ theȱexampleȱofȱaȱ laser.ȱOrdinaryȱ lightȱwavesȱareȱcalledȱ ȇincoherentȇ;ȱ theyȱ goȱ inȱ allȱ directionsȱ andȱ areȱ notȱ inȱ phaseȱwithȱ eachȱ other,ȱ soȱ theyȱ donȇtȱ buildȱ up.ȱ Butȱ theȱ lightȱ comingȱ fromȱ aȱ laserȱ isȱ coherent,ȱbecauseȱtheȱwavesȱallȱbeamȱinȱtheȱsameȱdirectionȱandȱbuildȱupȱ greatȱstrength.ȱSimilarly,ȱifȱevenȱaȱfewȱpeopleȱwereȱtoȱthinkȱtogetherȱinȱaȱ coherentȱwayȱitȱwouldȱhaveȱtremendousȱpowerȱinȱtheȱcultureȱandȱinȱtheȱ society.ȱ

Now,ȱoneȱofȱtheȱquestionsȱthatȇsȱinvolvedȱinȱallȱthisȱisȱtime.ȱAllȱthoughtȱ involvesȱ time,ȱ inȱ aȱ wayȱ whichȱ weȱ donȇtȱ see.ȱWeȱ tendȱ toȱ thinkȱ thatȱ everythingȱ existsȱ inȱ time,ȱ thatȱ timeȱ isȱ anȱ independentȱ reality.ȱ Peopleȱ representȱtimeȱbyȱspace.ȱInȱaȱdiagramȱtheyȱdrawȱaȱlineȱandȱcallȱitȱȇtimeȇ,ȱ andȱ sayȱ thatȱhereȱ isȱaȱpointȱ inȱ time,ȱwhichȱ isȱnow,ȱ thenȱanotherȱpoint,ȱ thenȱanotherȱpoint.ȱClearly,ȱ thoughtȱ isȱ thenȱ representingȱ timeȱ throughȱ space.ȱ

Butȱ weȱ seemȱ alsoȱ toȱ experienceȱ timeȱ psychologically.ȱ Leibniz,ȱ theȱ philosopher,ȱhasȱsaidȱ thatȱspaceȱ isȱ theȱorderȱofȱcoexistence.ȱAllȱ thatȱcoȬ existsȱisȱinȱaȱcertainȱorderȱwhichȱweȱcallȱȇspaceȇ.ȱAndȱtimeȱisȱtheȱorderȱofȱ successiveȱ existenceȱ Ȭtheȱ orderȱ ofȱ succession.ȱTheȱ realȱ basisȱ ofȱ timeȱ isȱ successionȱ Ȭthingsȱ succeedingȱ eachȱ otherȱ inȱ aȱ certainȱ order.ȱ Timeȱ isȱ aȱ conceptȱwhichȱisȱsetȱupȱbyȱthoughtȱtoȱrepresentȱsuccession.ȱ

Allȱsortsȱofȱconceptsȱofȱtimeȱareȱpossible.ȱInȱtheȱearlyȱdaysȱpeopleȱdidnȇtȱ thinkȱmuchȱaboutȱtime.ȱTheyȱmayȱhaveȱhadȱaȱvagueȱnotionȱofȱpastȱandȱ futureȱȬȱtheȱvagueȱnotionȱofȱtomorrowȱbeingȱanyȱtime,ȱandȱtheȱpastȱnotȱ rememberedȱ veryȱwell.ȱ Thereȱwereȱ noȱ printedȱ records.ȱ Theȱ pastȱwasȱ mostlyȱmythological;ȱandȱtheȱfutureȱwasȱprobablyȱequallyȱmythological,ȱ ifȱtheyȱthoughtȱofȱitȱatȱall.ȱTheyȱcouldȱpossiblyȱhaveȱthoughtȱofȱseasonsȱ andȱ thingsȱ likeȱ that.ȱ Theȱ seasonsȱ areȱ theȱ successionȱ ofȱ process.ȱ Yourȱ

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bodyȱgoesȱ throughȱaȱsuccessionȱofȱ rhythms.ȱAndȱ thatȱsuccessionȱ isȱ theȱ basisȱofȱtheȱwholeȱthingȱȬȱthatȱisȱaȱthingȱthatȇsȱactual.ȱ

Thoughtȱdealsȱwithȱthat,ȱputsȱitȱinȱorderȱbyȱmeansȱofȱtheȱconceptȱofȱtime.ȱ Weȱmayȱdrawȱaȱlineȱandȱcallȱthatȱȇtimeȇ,ȱbutȱasȱIȱhaveȱsaidȱearlier,ȱthatȇsȱ reallyȱ representingȱ timeȱ byȱ space.ȱ Youȱ sayȱ theȱ clockȱ tellsȱ time,ȱ butȱ itȱ doesnȇt.ȱWhatȱyouȱactuallyȱseeȱ isȱtheȱpositionȱofȱtheȱhandsȱofȱtheȱclock,ȱ notȱtheȱtime.ȱItȱmeansȱtime;ȱitȇsȱbeenȱsetȱupȱinȱsuchȱaȱwayȱthatȱitȱshouldȱ measureȱtime.ȱButȱweȱneverȱactuallyȱsee,ȱperceive,ȱorȱexperienceȱ ȇtimeȇȱȬȱ itȇsȱinferred.ȱ

Nevertheless,ȱ weȱ seemȱ somehowȱ toȱ experienceȱ timeȱ inȱ ourȱ ownȱ psychologicalȱexistence.ȱButȱifȱyouȱthoughtȱthatȱtimeȱwasȱaȱbasicȱrealityȱ thenȱyouȱwouldȱhaveȱaȱparadox.ȱTheȱpastȱ isȱgoneȱ Ȭȱ itȱdoesnȇtȱexist.ȱTheȱ futureȱ doesnȇtȱ existȱ eitherȱ Ȭȱ itȇsȱ notȱ yet.ȱ Andȱ theȱ present,ȱ ifȱ itȱ wereȱ thoughtȱ ofȱ asȱ theȱpointȱdividingȱpastȱ andȱ future,ȱ alsoȱ couldȱnotȱ exist,ȱ becauseȱitȱwouldȱbeȱdividingȱwhatȱdoesnȇtȱexistȱfromȱwhatȱdoesnȇtȱexist.ȱ Thatȇsȱtheȱparadoxȱofȱthisȱview.ȱHowever,ȱitȱisȱnoȱparadoxȱifȱyouȱjustȱsayȱ thatȱtimeȱisȱaȱrepresentation.ȱAȱrepresentationȱcanȱbeȱallȱkindsȱofȱthings.ȱ

Scienceȱhasȱdevelopedȱallȱsortsȱofȱnotionsȱofȱtime.ȱThereȱisȱNewtonȇsȱideaȱ ofȱ absoluteȱ timeȱ Ȭȱ aȱ certainȱ momentȱ thatȇsȱ theȱ sameȱ forȱ theȱ wholeȱ universe,ȱandȱthenȱanotherȱmomentȱsucceedingȱit,ȱandȱthenȱanotherȱone.ȱ Einsteinȱchallengedȱthat,ȱandȱsaidȱtimeȱisȱrelativeȱtoȱspeed,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Youȱ canȱ changeȱ theȱ ideasȱ ofȱ timeȱ andȱ ofȱ space,ȱ butȱ theyȱ areȱ allȱ representations.ȱ Eachȱ oneȱmayȱ haveȱ aȱ domainȱwhereȱ itȇsȱ correct;ȱ andȱ beyondȱ thatȱ itȱmayȱnotȱbeȱ right,ȱmayȱnotȱworkȱ coherently.ȱButȱ inȱourȱ cultureȱweȱhaveȱaȱtacitȱassumptionȱthatȱeverythingȱexistsȱinȱtime.ȱ

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Q:ȱ Weȱ makeȱ theȱ mistakeȱ ofȱ usingȱ timeȱ inȱ theȱ psychologicalȱ field.ȱ Somebodyȱmayȱ sayȱ thatȱheȱneedsȱmanyȱyearsȱ toȱbecomeȱ transformed.ȱ Butȱ thatȇsȱ aȱ veryȱ dangerousȱmistake,ȱ becauseȱ youȱ neverȱ knowȱwhenȱ insightȱ mayȱ happen.ȱ Iȱ donȇtȱ thinkȱ thatȱ timeȱ hasȱ aȱ placeȱ inȱ theȱ psychologicalȱfield.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ butȱwhyȱ isȱ itȱ thatȱ itȱ seemsȱ toȱ haveȱ aȱ place?ȱ Thoughtȱ hasȱ assumedȱtimeȱandȱhasȱrepresentedȱtimeȱasȱtheȱessenceȱofȱexistence.ȱWeȱ say,ȱȇtimeȱisȱofȱtheȱessenceȇ.ȱButȱifȱweȱsayȱthatȱtimeȱisȱofȱtheȱessence,ȱthenȱ timeȱmustȱbeȱtheȱȇbeingȇȱȬȱwhatȱweȱare.ȱAndȱfromȱthatȱthought,ȱwhichȱisȱaȱ commonlyȱ acceptedȱ notion,ȱ comesȱ theȱ perceptionȱ thatȱ timeȱ isȱ theȱ essence.ȱWhetherȱ timeȱreallyȱ isȱ theȱessenceȱorȱnotȱ isȱ irrelevant,ȱbecauseȱ onceȱitȇsȱcommonlyȱacceptedȱweȱperceiveȱitȱthatȱwayȱthenȱitȱbecomesȱanȱ absoluteȱnecessity.ȱ

Q:ȱ Timeȱ isȱ oneȱ ofȱ theȱ measurablesȱ Ȭȱ whatȱ weȱ callȱ ȇsubstancesȇ.ȱ Weȱ measureȱ time,ȱ countȱ onȱ it,ȱ predictȱ theȱ spaceȱ betweenȱ todayȱ andȱ tomorrow.ȱWeȱmakeȱpredictionsȱonȱitȱbasedȱonȱourȱexperienceȱbetweenȱ todayȱandȱyesterday,ȱandȱcountȱonȱtheȱsameȱrhythm.ȱSoȱitȱseemsȱtoȱhaveȱ someȱsubstance.ȱAndȱitȇsȱquiteȱuseful,ȱsuchȱasȱforȱmeasuringȱdistanceȱorȱ formȱ orȱ somethingȱ likeȱ that.ȱ Therefore,ȱ itȱ doesȱ seemȱ toȱ beȱ oneȱ ofȱ theȱ essencesȱofȱourȱexistence.ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱmayȱappearȱtoȱbeȱso.ȱYouȱwereȱdiscussingȱevidenceȱinȱfavourȱofȱ itsȱ beingȱ theȱ essence,ȱ butȱ theȱ pointȱ isȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱ neverthelessȱ anȱ

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abstraction.ȱWeȱ canȱ sayȱ thatȱasȱanȱabstractionȱorȱasȱaȱ representationȱ itȱ mayȱoperateȱcorrectlyȱinȱaȱcertainȱdomainȱȬȱitȱkeepsȱtrackȱofȱsuccession.ȱ

Q:ȱAreȱyouȱsayingȱthatȱtimeȱandȱspaceȱareȱone?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Theyȱmayȱ beȱ one.ȱ Theȱ theoryȱ ofȱ relativityȱ impliesȱ theirȱ unity.ȱ Measurementȱofȱtimeȱandȱspaceȱkeepsȱtrackȱofȱtheȱorderȱofȱsuccessionȱinȱ aȱprocess.ȱButȱyouȱfirstȱhaveȱtheȱorderȱofȱsuccession,ȱandȱthenȱyouȱhaveȱ theȱconceptȱofȱtime.ȱNow,ȱhowever,ȱ itȱseemsȱtoȱhaveȱturnedȱaroundȱ Ȭȱ itȱ seemsȱthatȱyouȱfirstȱhaveȱtime,ȱandȱinȱthatȱtimeȱsuccessionȱtakesȱplace.ȱ

Q:ȱ Andȱ youȇreȱ sayingȱ thatȱ ifȱ weȱ loseȱ trackȱ ofȱ theȱ factȱ thatȱ itȇsȱ aȱ representation,ȱitȱcanȱbecomeȱproblematic?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Yes,ȱ orȱ confusingȱ orȱ incoherent.ȱ Thereȱ isȱ theȱ sameȱ problemȱ asȱ withȱallȱthought:ȱtheȱrepresentationȱentersȱperceptionȱandȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱanȱ actualȱ fact.ȱAndȱ theȱ restȱofȱ thinkingȱ thenȱ takesȱ thatȱasȱproof,ȱandȱ thenȱ proceedsȱ toȱgoȱonȱ fromȱ there.ȱ Itȱ startsȱ toȱ erectȱ allȱ sortsȱofȱ thingsȱonȱ aȱ wrongȱfoundation.ȱ

Iȇmȱsayingȱthatȱbeforeȱweȱcanȱthinkȱofȱpsychologicalȱtime,ȱweȱneedȱtoȱseeȱ thatȱtheȱveryȱnotionȱofȱtimeȱitselfȱisȱmisunderstood.ȱEvenȱinȱphysicsȱitȱisȱ notȱadequatelyȱbeingȱunderstoodȱasȱanȱabstraction,ȱasȱaȱrepresentation.ȱ

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Inȱ aȱ certainȱ areaȱ thisȱ willȱ notȱ beȱ tooȱ important,ȱ becauseȱ physicalȱ processesȱ areȱ regularȱ enoughȱ thatȱ theyȱ canȱ beȱ measuredȱ byȱ time.ȱ Therefore,ȱ evenȱ thoughȱ youȱ haveȱ thisȱmisunderstandingȱ youȱ areȱ notȱ goingȱtoȱcomeȱtoȱaȱseriousȱpracticalȱincoherence.ȱForȱinstance,ȱifȱweȱhaveȱ allȱtimedȱourȱwatchesȱtogetherȱandȱweȱsayȱthatȱweȱareȱgoingȱtoȱmeetȱatȱaȱ certainȱtime,ȱthen,ȱifȱourȱwatchesȱworkȱproperly,ȱweȱwillȱbeȱinȱtheȱsameȱ place.ȱIfȱtheyȱdonȇtȱworkȱproperlyȱweȱwillȱnot.ȱ

Soȱyouȱcanȱseeȱthat,ȱphysically,ȱtheȱconceptȱofȱtimeȱimpliesȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱ greatȱorderȱofȱnatureȱinȱtheȱwholeȱuniverse.ȱFromȱtheȱmostȱdistantȱstarsȱ toȱhere,ȱeveryȱatomȱvibratesȱatȱaȱcertainȱ rateȱwhichȱ isȱ theȱ sameȱasȱ itȱ isȱ here.ȱ Thereȱ areȱ allȱ sortsȱ ofȱ regularityȱ thatȱ constituteȱ aȱ vastȱ systemȱ ofȱ order,ȱwhichȱtheȱconceptȱofȱtimeȱisȱtappingȱinto,ȱasȱitȱwere.ȱIfȱthatȱorderȱ wereȱnotȱthereȱtimeȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱofȱmuchȱuse.ȱIfȱtheȱrateȱofȱatomsȱwereȱ toȱbecomeȱcontingentȱandȱsortȱofȱ jumpȱaround,ȱ thenȱyouȱmightȱasȱwellȱ giveȱupȱ theȱnotionȱofȱ time.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱwereȱnothingȱwhichȱwouldȱ followȱ thatȱorder,ȱthereȱwouldnȇtȱbeȱanyȱuseȱtoȱthinkȱofȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱYouȱsaidȱthatȱtimeȱisȱanȱabstraction,ȱwhichȱarisesȱoutȱofȱrepresentationȱ orȱ outȱ ofȱ thought.ȱ Butȱ alsoȱ itȱ seemsȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ presupposesȱ time,ȱ thoughtȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱaȱprocessȱinȱtime.ȱInȱaȱwayȱitȇsȱcircular.ȱ

Bohm:ȱTheyȱgoȱ inȱ aȱ circle,ȱyes.ȱ Ifȱweȱ admitȱ thatȱ thoughtȱ isȱ aȱmaterialȱ process,ȱandȱ ifȱweȱ thinkȱofȱmatterȱasȱmovingȱ inȱanȱorderȱ inȱ time,ȱ thenȱ thatȱwouldȱsuggestȱthatȱthoughtȱwillȱalsoȱbeȱmovingȱinȱthatȱtime.ȱ

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Q:ȱInȱourȱdiscussionȱofȱthought,ȱarenȇtȱweȱassumingȱtimeȱtoȱsomeȱextent?ȱ

Rohm:ȱAsȱweȱ nowȱ haveȱ it,ȱ everyȱ thoughtȱ assumesȱ time.ȱWhetherȱweȱ discussȱthoughtȱorȱanythingȱelse,ȱweȱalwaysȱtakeȱtimeȱforȱgranted.ȱAndȱ weȱ takeȱ forȱgrantedȱ theȱnotionȱ thatȱeverythingȱexistsȱ inȱ time.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱ takeȱforȱgrantedȱthatȱtimeȱisȱanȱabstractionȱandȱaȱrepresentation,ȱbutȱweȱ takeȱforȱgrantedȱthatȱtimeȱisȱofȱtheȱessenceȱȬȱrealityȱȬȱandȱthatȱeverythingȱ isȱexistingȱinȱtime,ȱincludingȱthought.ȱThereȇsȱsomeȱcorrectnessȱtoȱthat,ȱinȱ theȱsenseȱthatȱitsȱorderȱofȱsuccessionȱcanȱbeȱputȱinȱtermsȱofȱtime.ȱ

Q:ȱ Timeȱ isȱ anȱ essentialȱ partȱ ofȱ Newtonianȱ physics,ȱ butȱ whatȱ aboutȱ modernȱphysics?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȇsȱstillȱplayingȱaȱbasicȱpart,ȱbutȱ itȇsȱnotȱsoȱclearȱwhatȱ itȱmeans.ȱ Whenȱ youȱ getȱ toȱ relativityȱ itȱ becomesȱ dependentȱ onȱ theȱ speedȱ ofȱ theȱ measuringȱ instrument.ȱ Andȱ inȱ quantumȱ mechanicsȱ itȱ becomesȱ indeterminateȱ toȱsomeȱextent.ȱButȱ theȱbasicȱconceptȱofȱ timeȱhasȱnotȱyetȱ beenȱalteredȱ Ȭȱ itȱ isȱstillȱ takenȱasȱ theȱbasicȱ frameȱonȱwhichȱeverythingȱ isȱ put.ȱ

Q:ȱInȱpsychologicalȱthought,ȱwhatȱisȱtheȱerrorȱconcerningȱtime?ȱ

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Bohm:ȱWhatȱ Iȱ saidȱwas,ȱ thatȱ inȱ orderȱ forȱ notionsȱ ofȱ timeȱ toȱ beȱ reallyȱ coherentlyȱ relevantȱ andȱ applicable,ȱ weȱ needȱ toȱ haveȱ someȱ suitableȱ ordersȱ ofȱ successionȱ toȱwhichȱ theyȱwillȱ fit.ȱ Ifȱ thereȱwereȱ noȱ ordersȱ ofȱ succession,ȱ whichȱ wereȱ allȱ synchronousȱ andȱ corresponding,ȱ thenȱ theȱ notionȱofȱtimeȱwouldȱbeȱquiteȱuseless.ȱ

Itȇsȱnotȱsoȱobvious,ȱevenȱinȱphysicsȱȬȱitȱtookȱaȱlongȱwhileȱinȱphysicsȱjustȱtoȱ getȱclocksȱ thatȱyouȱcouldȱcountȱon.ȱButȱpsychologicallyȱ theȱ thingȱ isȱ farȱ moreȱ complex.ȱ Asȱ youȱ know,ȱ inȱ yourȱ psychologicalȱ experienceȱ oneȱ momentȱcanȱseemȱaȱyear,ȱaȱlongȱtimeȱcanȱseemȱaȱshortȱtime,ȱandȱsoȱon;ȱ itȇsȱnotȱquiteȱsoȱsimpleȱasȱwithȱphysics.ȱTheȱwholeȱprocessȱorȱmovementȱ isȱ infinitelyȱ complexȱ andȱ veryȱ subtle.ȱ Everythingȱ isȱ changingȱ everyȱ momentȱandȱtheȱpossibilityȱofȱkeepingȱtrackȱofȱitȱisȱnil.ȱ

Youȱcanȱ imagineȱ thatȱbetweenȱ thisȱmomentȱnowȱandȱ theȱnextȱmomentȱ thereȱ isȱaȱ stretch;ȱ thenȱ itȱ isȱ reallyȱ spaceȱbyȱwhichȱyouȱareȱ representingȱ time.ȱWhenȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇaheadȱofȱmeȱ isȱ theȱ futureȇ,ȱ thatȱaȱ spatialȱanalogy.ȱ Youȱ imagineȱ theȱ futureȱstretchesȱaheadȱandȱ theȱpastȱ isȱbehind.ȱButȱ theȱ pastȱ isȱ nowhere.ȱ Theȱ futureȱ isȱ nowhere.ȱ Still,ȱ yourȱ experienceȱ isȱ thatȱ ȇbackȱ thereȇȱ isȱ theȱpastȱandȱ ȇaheadȱofȱmeȇȱ isȱ theȱ future.ȱThatȇsȱaȱwayȱofȱ representingȱtime,ȱbutȱitȱalsoȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱaȱwayȱofȱexperiencingȱit.ȱ

Soȱweȱ seemȱ toȱ beȱmovingȱ fromȱ theȱ pastȱ towardȱ theȱ future.ȱ Iȇveȱ said,ȱ though,ȱ thatȱ thatȱ experienceȱ isnȇtȱ makingȱ senseȱ becauseȱ theȱ futureȱ doesnȇtȱ exist.ȱ Itȱ isnȇtȱ spreadȱ outȱ beforeȱ you.ȱAndȱ theȱ pastȱ isȱ notȱ thereȱ behindȱ you.ȱ Allȱ youȱ haveȱ isȱ theȱ present.ȱ Whenȱ itȱ comesȱ toȱ theȱ psychologicalȱfact,ȱtheȱonlyȱfactȱyouȱhaveȱisȱtheȱpresent,ȱtheȱnow.ȱ

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Q:ȱWhatȱaboutȱtheȱphysicalȱfact?ȱ

Bohm:ȱEvenȱ theȱphysicalȱ factȱmustȱ startȱ fromȱ theȱpresent.ȱPhysicsȱ canȱ establishȱaȱ factȱofȱ theȱorderȱofȱ succession.ȱButȱ thatȱorderȱ cannotȱbeȱ soȱ nicelyȱestablishedȱpsychologically.ȱYouȱcanȱhardlyȱrememberȱveryȱmuchȱ ofȱwhatȱhappenedȱ inȱ theȱpast,ȱ andȱ itȱhasȱbeenȱprovedȱ thatȱ itȇsȱmostlyȱ inventedȱ anyway.ȱ Andȱ theȱ futureȱ isȱ anȱ expectationȱ whichȱ isȱ seldomȱ realized.ȱYouȱ canȱ countȱonȱ aȱphysicalȱ fact,ȱ suchȱ asȱweȱ canȱmeetȱ atȱ anȱ agreedȱuponȱtimeȱifȱourȱwatchesȱareȱworkingȱright.ȱButȱyouȱcanȇtȱcountȱ onȱanyȱ suchȱ thingȱwithȱpsychologicalȱ time.ȱTherefore,ȱweȱbeginȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱitȱisnȇtȱsoȱcoherent.ȱ

Relativityȱtheoryȱwouldȱsayȱthatȱtheȱwholeȱofȱtimeȱisȱoneȱbigȱblock,ȱlikeȱ space.ȱ Butȱ thenȱ youȱ canȇtȱ quiteȱ understandȱ whyȱ youȱ experienceȱ thisȱ momentȱnow.ȱOneȱviewȱisȱtoȱsayȱthatȱyouȱareȱlikeȱaȱtrainȱgoingȱthroughȱ time,ȱbutȱthenȱyouȇveȱintroducedȱanotherȱkindȱofȱtime.ȱYouȇveȱslippedȱitȱ inȱagain.ȱSoȱtheȱbestȱwayȱtoȱlookȱatȱphysicsȱisȱtoȱsayȱthatȱitȱhasȱmadeȱanȱ abstractȱ representationȱwhichȱ allowsȱyouȱ toȱkeepȱ trackȱofȱ theȱorderȱofȱ succession.ȱTheȱorderȱofȱsuccessionȱisȱreallyȱtheȱfact.ȱ

Theȱ nextȱ questionȱ weȱ haveȱ toȱ raiseȱ is:ȱ whenȱ thereȱ isȱ anȱ orderȱ ofȱ succession,ȱ isȱ thatȱ orderȱ necessaryȱ orȱ contingent?ȱ Inȱ physicsȱ weȱ areȱ lookingȱ forȱwhatȱ areȱ calledȱ ȇlawsȱ ofȱ natureȇ.ȱWeȱ tryȱ toȱ findȱ necessaryȱ ordersȱofȱsuccession,ȱsuchȱasȱtheȱlawȱofȱmotion.ȱWeȱcallȱtheseȱlaws.ȱTheȱ wordȱ ȇlawȇ,ȱ however,ȱ isȱ anȱ unfortunateȱ wordȱ becauseȱ itȱ suggestsȱ aȱ legislator,ȱandȱallȱthat.ȱButȱitȱcouldȱbeȱcalledȱ ȇaȱnaturalȱregularityȇȱinȱtheȱ orderȱ ofȱ succession.ȱ Inȱ physicsȱ weȱ discoverȱ suchȱ regularityȱ inȱ theȱ necessaryȱorderȱofȱsuccession.ȱIfȱthereȱwereȱnoȱnecessityȱinȱthisȱorder,ȱtheȱ notionȱofȱtimeȱmightȱasȱwellȱbeȱgivenȱupȱanyway.ȱ

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Whenȱyouȱ sayȱ ȇIȱ expectȱ toȱ arriveȱ atȱ successȱ inȱ changingȱmyselfȱ inȱ theȱ futureȇ,ȱyouȱareȱcountingȱonȱsomeȱorderȱofȱnecessityȱinȱthatȱsuccessionȱȬȱaȱ seriesȱ ofȱ stepsȱ inȱ whichȱ youȱ willȱ necessarilyȱ arriveȱ atȱ aȱ betterȱ state.ȱ Actuallyȱitȱisȱallȱcontingent;ȱthatȱisȱtheȱfact.ȱIȱmayȱintendȱtoȱarriveȱthere,ȱ butȱIȱmayȱarriveȱsomewhereȱelseȱaltogether.ȱ

Soȱwhatȱpointȱdoesȱthatȱorderȱofȱtimeȱhave?ȱItȇsȱentirelyȱ imagined.ȱYouȱ mayȱsayȱIȇmȱgoingȱtoȱtakeȱaȱtripȱandȱgoȱthroughȱaȱseriesȱofȱcitiesȱbetweenȱ hereȱandȱSanȱFrancisco,ȱandȱ itȱwillȱ takeȱaȱcertainȱamountȱofȱ timeȱ toȱgoȱ throughȱ them.ȱ Iȇmȱgoingȱ toȱgoȱ throughȱ thisȱoneȱ firstȱandȱ thenȱ thisȱoneȱ andȱ thenȱ thisȱ one.ȇȱ Andȱ ifȱ youȱ haveȱ aȱ goodȱ map,ȱ thatȱ isȱ whatȱ willȱ actuallyȱhappen.ȱOnȱtheȱotherȱhand,ȱifȱyouȱsayȱȇIȇmȱgoingȱtoȱgoȱthroughȱaȱ seriesȱofȱstepsȱinȱselfȬimprovementȇ,ȱitȱwonȇtȱhappen.ȱ

Q;ȱItȇsȱdeception,ȱisnȇtȱit?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes,ȱitȇsȱaȱkindȱofȱdeception.ȱ

Q:ȱItȇsȱsortȱofȱlikeȱtryingȱtoȱclimbȱtheȱrainbow.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Inȱ fact,ȱ allȱ theseȱ psychologicalȱ stepsȱ areȱ rainbowsȱ thatȱ youȇreȱ chasing.ȱTherefore,ȱweȱsayȱthatȱitȱdoesnȇtȱlookȱasȱifȱthisȱnotionȱofȱtimeȱhasȱ nearlyȱasȱmuchȱmeaningȱpsychologicallyȱasȱphysically.ȱItȱhasȱaȱ littleȱbitȱ ofȱmeaningȱpsychologicallyȱbecauseȱitȱtakesȱtimeȱtoȱspeak,ȱtimeȱtoȱthink;ȱ theȱphysiologicalȱprocessȱofȱthoughtȱtakesȱtime;ȱweȱhaveȱallȱsortsȱofȱbodyȱ clocks,ȱandȱthoughtȱisȱtiedȱtoȱthat,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱSoȱitȱworksȱupȱtoȱaȱpoint.ȱ Itȇsȱnotȱ entirelyȱmeaningless,ȱ butȱ thereȇsȱnotȱmuchȱmeaning.ȱYouȱ canȇtȱ sayȱthatȱitȇsȱofȱtheȱessence.ȱ

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Q:ȱEarlierȱweȱ saidȱ thatȱ theȱmentalȱ andȱ theȱphysicalȱ areȱnotȱ reallyȱ thatȱ different.ȱButȱnowȱweȇreȱmakingȱaȱdistinctionȱofȱtimeȱinȱtheȱphysicalȱareaȱ andȱtimeȱinȱtheȱpsychologicalȱareas.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Evenȱ inȱ theȱ physicalȱ weȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ whereverȱ weȱ getȱ toȱ somethingȱsoȱinfinitelyȱcomplexȱthatȱweȱcanȇtȱfindȱanȱorderȱofȱnecessity,ȱ itȱ becomesȱdubious.ȱTheȱpeopleȱwhoȱworkȱ inȱ quantumȱmechanicsȱ areȱ facingȱ that.ȱ Theyȱ areȱ sayingȱ thatȱ dependingȱ onȱ yourȱmeasurementȱ itȱ becomesȱ somewhatȱ uncertainȱwhatȱ theȱ timeȱ is.ȱ Soȱ thereȱ isȱ alreadyȱ inȱ physicsȱaȱ limitȱ toȱ theȱorderȱofȱnecessity,ȱalthoughȱ itȱstillȱworksȱupȱ toȱaȱ point.ȱButȱ inȱ theȱpsychologicalȱdomain,ȱ theȱattemptȱ toȱuseȱ thisȱorderȱ isȱ causingȱaȱgreatȱdealȱofȱconfusion.ȱ

Q:ȱWeȇreȱsuggestingȱthatȱpartȱofȱtheȱpsychologicalȱdomainȱisȱanȱillusion,ȱ andȱ thatȇsȱwhyȱ timeȱdoesnȇtȱworkȱ there,ȱwhyȱ timeȱ isȱ reallyȱnotȱ ofȱ theȱ essence.ȱTimeȱwithȱselfȱisȱofȱnoȱuse,ȱbecauseȱtheȱselfȱisȱaȱrainbow.ȱButȱisȱ thereȱ anotherȱpsychologicalȱdomainȱwhichȱwouldȱbeȱmoreȱ real,ȱwhereȱ timeȱstillȱwouldȱnotȱwork?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thereȱ mayȱ be.ȱWeȱ couldȱ sayȱ thatȱ ifȱ weȱ startȱ toȱ analyseȱ theȱ materialȱprocessȱofȱ theȱbody,ȱasȱscientistsȱareȱdoing,ȱ timeȱwillȱcertainlyȱ carryȱusȱaȱ longȱway.ȱWhenȱweȱcomeȱ toȱ theȱmind,ȱhowever,ȱweȱseeȱ theȱ problemȱIȱmentioned:ȱthisȱbigȱpuzzleȱthatȱtheȱpastȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱbehindȱusȱ andȱ theȱ futureȱahead.ȱButȱ thatȇsȱ justȱ theȱ rainbow.ȱThenȱweȱ sayȱ ȇOK,ȱ itȱ doesnȇtȱ seemȱ toȱbeȱ coherentȱ toȱapplyȱ timeȱ toȱ thisȱ rainbowȱ chasingȇ.ȱSoȱ whereȱareȱ theȱpastȱandȱ theȱ futureȱpsychologically?ȱEvenȱphysicallyȱweȱ

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canȇtȱreallyȱgetȱholdȱofȱthem;ȱalthoughȱworkingȱwithȱthoseȱconceptsȱweȱ canȱmakeȱsomeȱsenseȱofȱtheȱsuccession.ȱ

WhatȱsuggestsȱitselfȱisȱthatȱpsychologicallyȱȬȱandȱperhapsȱeventuallyȱforȱ theȱdeepestȱlevelȱphysicallyȱȬȱweȱcanȇtȱuseȱtimeȱasȱtheȱessence.ȱRather,ȱtheȱ momentȱnowȱ isȱtheȱessence,ȱbecauseȱallȱtheȱpastȱandȱtheȱfutureȱthatȱweȱ everȱwillȱknowȱareȱ inȱ thisȱmoment.ȱTheȱpastȱandȱ theȱ futureȱareȱnowȱ Ȭȱ namely,ȱinȱsoȱfarȱasȱitȱhasȱleftȱanyȱimpression.,ȱwhateverȱhasȱhappenedȱisȱ now.ȱAndȱourȱexpectationsȱareȱnow.ȱThusȱweȱcouldȱsayȱthatȱnowȱmayȱbeȱ theȱstartingȱpoint.ȱ

Oneȱ pictureȱ youȱ couldȱmakeȱ ofȱ anȱ electronȱwouldȱ beȱ thatȱ itȱ sortȱ ofȱ flashesȱintoȱandȱoutȱofȱexistenceȱsoȱfastȱthatȱwhenȱpickedȱupȱinȱtheȱusualȱ equipmentȱ itȱ looksȱ continuouslyȱ existent.ȱ Itȱ mightȱ haveȱ aȱ certainȱ regularity,ȱsoȱthatȱ itȱappearsȱtoȱobeyȱanȱorderȱofȱnecessity.ȱButȱ itȱmightȱ beȱ thatȱ itȱ isȱbasicallyȱ creative;ȱ theȱ creativeȱactȱmayȱ createȱ thisȱorderȱofȱ necessity.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱthatȱmeanȱthatȱanyȱtimeȱweȱescapeȱfromȱtheȱnowȱweȱareȱtryingȱ toȱchangeȱwhatȱisȱnecessary?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWeȱareȱtryingȱtoȱpushȱtheȱorderȱofȱnecessityȱ intoȱtheȱtimeȱorder.ȱ Weȇreȱtryingȱtoȱmakeȱaȱchangeȱinȱthisȱorder.ȱButȱweȱareȱinȱanȱareaȱwhereȱ thatȱsortȱofȱabstraction,ȱorȱthatȱsortȱofȱrepresentation,ȱcannotȱwork.ȱEvenȱ

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inȱphysicsȱweȱhaveȱtoȱadmitȱthatȱthisȱwasȱalwaysȱaȱrepresentation,ȱthatȱ theȱactualȱexperienceȱwasȱalwaysȱnow.ȱ

Q:ȱThenȱanyȱescapingȱfromȱtheȱnowȱwouldȱbeȱdisorder,ȱincoherenceȱandȱ violence?ȱ

Bohm:ȱWhatȱthisȱescapeȱamountsȱtoȱisȱthatȱallȱtheseȱreflexesȱȬȱwhichȱareȱ theȱ ȇpastȇȱ Ȭȱ haveȱ affectedȱ ourȱ perceptionȱ veryȱ stronglyȱ soȱ thatȱweȱ seeȱ differently.ȱWeȱdonȇtȱseeȱ theȱnowȱasȱanythingȱmoreȱ thanȱaȱ flashȱ inȱ thisȱ time.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱthereȱaȱdifferenceȱbetweenȱnecessityȱinȱtheȱorderȱofȱsuccessionȱandȱ necessityȱinȱtheȱmoment?ȱ

Bohm:ȱIȱwouldȱsuggestȱthatȱnecessityȱinȱtheȱmomentȱisȱaȱkindȱofȱcreativeȱ necessity,ȱ asȱ weȱ talkedȱ aboutȱ inȱ relationȱ toȱ art,ȱ whereȱ withinȱ theȱ contingencyȱthereȱisȱaȱcreativeȱact.ȱButȱinȱmatterȱtheȱcreationȱisȱrecreationȱ againȱandȱagainȱ Ȭȱsimilarȱbutȱdifferent;ȱsimilarȱenoughȱsoȱ thatȱ theȱ formȱ holds.ȱInȱtheȱpsychicȱdomain,ȱthough,ȱthisȱsimilarityȱdoesnȇtȱholdȱexceptȱ inȱ thought,ȱ becauseȱ thoughtȱ isȱ basedȱ onȱmemory,ȱ andȱmemoryȱ isȱ justȱ thatȱ thingȱwhichȱ triesȱ toȱholdȱ thisȱsimilarity.ȱMemoryȱhasȱaȱbaseȱ inȱ theȱ

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materialȱprocess,ȱandȱtheȱmaterialȱprocessȱisȱableȱtoȱcarryȱtheȱsimilarity.ȱ Itȱmakesȱaȱrecord.ȱIsȱitȱclearȱwhatȱIȱmean?ȱ

Q:ȱTheȱpast,ȱtheȱpresent,ȱandȱtheȱfutureȱareȱoneȱmotion.ȱIfȱyouȱlookȱatȱaȱ slowȱmotionȱ filmȱ ofȱ somebodyȱ takingȱ aȱ step,ȱ youȱ seeȱ aȱmovementȱ ofȱ past,ȱpresentȱandȱfuture,ȱbutȱitȇsȱoneȱmovement.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱ isȱ oneȱ movement.ȱ Weȱ talkedȱ aboutȱ emptinessȱ containingȱ energy.ȱAndȱ itȱmayȱ beȱ thatȱ theȱmovementȱ isȱ basicallyȱ creative,ȱ inȱ theȱ senseȱ thatȱweȱ talkedȱ aboutȱ insightȱ orȱ creativityȱ beingȱ fromȱ thisȱ totalȱ source.ȱItȱmayȱbeȱthatȱthereȱisȱaȱsourceȱbeyondȱthisȱlevelȱofȱmatterȱfromȱ whichȱcreativityȱemerges,ȱproducingȱsimilarityȱandȱdifference.ȱAndȱinȱaȱ certainȱmodeȱofȱperception,ȱpickingȱupȱaȱcertainȱpartȱofȱthisȱprocessȱwillȱ createȱaȱsenseȱofȱcontinuity.ȱ

Weȇveȱ saidȱbeforeȱ thatȱ theȱpastȱandȱ theȱ futureȱareȱ imagesȱcontainedȱ inȱ thought.ȱThoughtȱ tiesȱ thoseȱ imagesȱ togetherȱwithȱ theȱpresentȱ toȱgiveȱaȱ senseȱ ofȱmovementȱ andȱ continuity.ȱ Usingȱ theȱ exampleȱ ofȱ aȱ filmȱ Ȭȱ aȱ cinecameraȱrecordsȱaȱseriesȱofȱsomewhatȱdifferentȱimages.ȱWhenȱplayedȱ backȱ theyȱgiveȱaȱsenseȱofȱmotion.ȱThisȱhappensȱbecauseȱ theȱbrainȱdoesȱ notȱdistinguishȱimagesȱthatȱareȱmoreȱthan,ȱsay,ȱaȱtenthȱorȱsoȱofȱaȱsecondȱ apart;ȱsoȱwhenȱaȱlotȱofȱtheseȱimagesȱareȱseenȱrapidlyȱtheyȱareȱsensedȱasȱ continuity.ȱ Similarly,ȱ aȱ lotȱ ofȱ grainsȱ ofȱ flowingȱ sandȱmightȱ lookȱ likeȱ water,ȱcontinuous.ȱ

Youȱcanȱseeȱthatȱthisȱsenseȱofȱcontinuityȱarisesȱfromȱthought,ȱwhichȱputsȱ itȱallȱtogether.ȱ

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Q:ȱYouȇreȱsayingȱthatȱinȱtheȱpsychologicalȱdomainȱtheȱcontinuityȱisȱnonȬ existentȱ andȱ onlyȱ createdȱ byȱ thought.ȱContinuityȱ isȱ inferredȱ fromȱ theȱ materialȱ realm,ȱ whereȱ continuityȱ doesȱ seemȱ toȱ existȱ becauseȱ ofȱ theȱ arisingȱofȱsimilarities.ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Thatȇsȱ right.ȱ Inȱ theȱ psychologicalȱ domain,ȱwhateverȱ continuityȱ existsȱisȱheldȱbyȱthoughtȱȬȱandȱnotȱveryȱcoherently.ȱ

Q:ȱ Thenȱ theȱ differenceȱ betweenȱ theȱ psychologicalȱ andȱ theȱ physicalȱ domainsȱisȱthatȱtheȱpsychologicalȱhasȱthisȱinfiniteȱcomplexity?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȇsȱveryȱsubtleȱandȱcomplex.ȱButȱmaybeȱtheȱdepthȱofȱtheȱphysicalȱ domainȱ isȱ equallyȱ subtleȱ andȱ complex.ȱ Thatȇsȱ theȱ suggestion.ȱ Weȇreȱ drawingȱinferencesȱandȱmakingȱsuggestionsȱtoȱconsider.ȱ

Now,ȱthisȱtiesȱwithȱthought.ȱWeȱdiscussedȱtheȱobserverȱandȱtheȱobservedȱ beingȱperceivedȱasȱseparate,ȱwithȱaȱspaceȱbetweenȱthem.ȱButȱweȱsaidȱthatȱ thatȱisȱinȱtheȱimage.ȱIfȱitȱwereȱnotȱanȱimage,ȱthatȱseparationȱwouldȱimplyȱ thatȱthereȱwouldȱbeȱtimeȱtoȱact,ȱthatȱitȱwouldȱtakeȱtimeȱtoȱcrossȱtheȱspace.ȱ And,ȱ havingȱ thatȱ spaceȱ inȱ time,ȱ theȱ observerȱ wouldȱ beȱ independentȱ enoughȱsoȱthatȱheȱcouldȱthinkȱaboutȱtheȱobservedȱaȱlittleȱwhileȱandȱthenȱ doȱsomething.ȱ

Butȱifȱthatȱseparationȱisȱ justȱsimplyȱanȱimage,ȱwhenȱinȱfactȱtheȱobserverȱ andȱtheȱobservedȱareȱallȱoneȱthoughtȱprocess,ȱthenȱwhateverȱyouȱcallȱȇtheȱ observerȇȱ hasȱ alreadyȱ beenȱ affectedȱ byȱ theȱ thingȱ heȱwantsȱ toȱ observe.ȱ Namely,ȱ ifȱheȱwantsȱ toȱobserveȱ angerȱheȱhasȱ alreadyȱbeenȱ affectedȱbyȱ

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angerȱinȱaȱdistortedȱway.ȱSoȱheȱdoesnȇtȱhaveȱanyȱtime.ȱThereȱisȱnoȱspace.ȱ Thereȱisȱnoȱtime.ȱThereȱisȱnothingȱbutȱthought,ȱwhichȱhasȱbeenȱaffectedȱ byȱ anger.ȱ Andȱ thisȱ requiresȱ anȱ insight,ȱ whichȱ wouldȱ freeȱ theȱ wholeȱ process.ȱ

Whereverȱ thereȱ isȱaȱcertainȱspaceȱandȱaȱcertainȱ independence,ȱ itȱ leavesȱ theȱpossibilityȱofȱ takingȱ time.ȱ Inȱ theȱphysicalȱ senseȱ thatȱ coheres,ȱ itȱ canȱ workȱcoherentlyȱȬȱtheȱfurtherȱawayȱsomethingȱisȱtheȱmoreȱtimeȱyouȱhaveȱ toȱ dealȱwithȱ it,ȱ theȱmoreȱ timeȱ youȱ haveȱ toȱ think.ȱ Butȱ inȱ theȱ thoughtȱ processȱ theȱ thingȱ isȱ soȱ entangledȱ Ȭȱ involvedȱ andȱ foldedȱ togetherȱ Ȭthatȱ thereȱisnȇtȱthatȱtime,ȱthereȱisnȇtȱthatȱspace.ȱ

Q:ȱ Itȇsȱ asȱyouȱ saidȱ aboutȱLeibnizȱhavingȱ theȱ ideaȱ thatȱ spaceȱ isȱ theȱ coȬ existence.ȱ Inȱaȱway,ȱ inȱ theȱmomentȱ thingsȱcoȬexist.ȱAndȱ ifȱyouȱhaveȱanȱ insightȱinȱtheȱmoment,ȱwouldȱyouȱthenȱhaveȱaȱnewȱkindȱofȱcoȬexistenceȱ whereȱeverythingȱwouldȱmoveȱtogether?ȱ

Bohm:ȱYes.ȱ Itȱwouldȱ coȬexistȱ inȱ aȱ coherentȱway,ȱ creatively;ȱ thatȱ isȱ theȱ suggestion.ȱ

Now,ȱ allȱ ofȱ thisȱmightȱ alsoȱhaveȱ toȱ ariseȱ inȱ theȱ collectiveȱ contextȱ ofȱ aȱ dialogue.ȱWeȱprobablyȱwouldnȇtȱgetȱ intoȱ itȱ rightȱaway;ȱbutȱ ifȱweȱwereȱ ableȱtoȱpursueȱthis,ȱsustainȱthisȱdialogueȱproperly,ȱthenȱpeopleȱmightȱgetȱ intoȱthatȱtooȱȬȱexperiencingȱtimeȱdifferentlyȱtogether,ȱandȱsoȱon.ȱ

Iȱthinkȱallȱofȱthatȱisȱpossible,ȱisȱopen.ȱButȱwhatȱweȱneedȱtoȱdoȱaboutȱtimeȱ isȱtoȱbeginȱtheȱsameȱwayȱasȱweȱdealȱwithȱanger.ȱWeȱhaveȱtoȱbeginȱtoȱseeȱ howȱourȱexperienceȱofȱtimeȱisȱaffectedȱbyȱthought.ȱToȱbeginȱtoȱgetȱintoȱitȱ weȱfindȱthoseȱthoughtsȱwhichȱareȱaffectingȱourȱwayȱofȱsensingȱtimeȱandȱ

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putȱ themȱ intoȱwordsȱ andȱobserveȱ carefully.ȱWeȱhaveȱ toȱ seeȱ thatȱ time,ȱ whichȱseemsȱtoȱbeȱthereȱofȱitsȱownȱaccordȱwithoutȱthought,ȱwouldȱnotȱbeȱ thereȱwithoutȱthoughtȱȬȱnotȱpsychologicalȱtime.ȱNoȱtimeȱwouldȱbeȱthere,ȱ really,ȱwithoutȱthought.ȱ

Theȱpointȱisȱtoȱgetȱanȱinsightȱintoȱthis.ȱIȱthinkȱthatȱtheȱliberationȱfromȱthisȱ process,ȱ fromȱ thisȱ incoherentȱ kindȱ ofȱ thought,ȱ requiresȱ bringingȱ inȱ allȱ theseȱquestionsȱ Ȭȱ allȱ thatȱweȇveȱbeenȱ talkingȱ about,ȱ includingȱ time.ȱAsȱ longȱ asȱweȱ acceptȱ timeȱ andȱ takeȱ itȱ forȱ granted,ȱweȱwillȱ beȱ constantlyȱ slippingȱback.ȱ

Q:ȱIsȱtimeȱmoreȱprimaryȱthanȱtheȱselfȬimage?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Itȱprobablyȱ is.ȱTimeȱ isȱ aȱprocessȱ basedȱ onȱ ourȱwholeȱnotionȱ ofȱ beingȱableȱtoȱorderȱtheȱworld,ȱwhichȱincludesȱtheȱself.ȱWithȱanythingȱyouȱ intendȱtoȱdo,ȱyouȱbeginȱtoȱprojectȱtimeȱȬȱyouȱbeginȱtoȱbringȱthisȱthingȱin.ȱ Thereȇsȱ aȱ placeȱwhereȱ itȱmayȱmakeȱ sense.ȱ Butȱ seeingȱ thatȱ itȱ generallyȱ doesȱnot,ȱgettingȱthatȱclear,ȱisȱcrucialȱtoȱtheȱwholeȱthing.ȱ

Q:ȱSoȱtimeȱisȱaȱmisrepresentationȱofȱsuccessions?ȱ

Bohm:ȱItȱmayȱbeȱinȱaȱcertainȱareaȱaȱcorrectȱrepresentation.ȱButȱwhenȱitȱisȱ extendedȱtooȱfarȱitȱbecomesȱaȱmisrepresentation.ȱ

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Q:ȱYesterdayȱyouȱputȱtheȱquestionȱofȱwhatȱcouldȱreachȱtheȱsubstance,ȱtheȱ structure.ȱWhatȱcanȱactuallyȱgetȱtoȱtheȱchemistryȱofȱitȱall?ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱwouldȱ againȱ beȱ perceptionȱ orȱ insight.ȱAndȱ insight,ȱweȇveȱ alreadyȱseen,ȱisȱbeyondȱtime.ȱWeȇveȱseenȱthatȱinsightȱcannotȱtakeȱtime.ȱ

Q:ȱWouldȱitȱbeȱcorrectȱtoȱsayȱthatȱdialogueȱisȱtheȱdoorwayȱtoȱinsight?ȱ

Bohm:ȱForȱinsightȱtogetherȱweȱneedȱdialogue.ȱIndividuallyȱaȱpersonȱcanȱ haveȱ insight;ȱbutȱweȱneedȱ itȱ together,ȱbecauseȱnowȱ theȱcivilizationȱhasȱ reachedȱaȱstageȱwhereȱitȱcannotȱproceedȱinȱtheȱotherȱway.ȱInȱgeneralȱweȱ neededȱitȱanyhow,ȱbutȱweȱnowȱreallyȱneedȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱ Youȱ saidȱ earlierȱ thatȱ theȱ selfȬimage,ȱ theȱ ȇIȱ Amȇ,ȱ hasȱ aȱ senseȱ ofȱ godlikeness.ȱAndȱtimeȱalsoȱbringsȱinȱtheȱnotionȱofȱgodlikeness,ȱbecauseȱifȱ thereȱ isȱ timeȱ thenȱ youȱ haveȱ controlȱ Ȭaȱwayȱ toȱ orderȱ things.ȱ Iȱwonderȱ whatȇsȱbehindȱthisȱstrongȱimpulseȱtoȱwantȱtoȱbeȱgodlike?ȱ

Bohm:ȱ Youȱ canȱ imagineȱ thatȱ thisȱ imageȱ couldȱ somehowȱ ariseȱ inȱ theȱ child.ȱAndȱonceȱ theȱ imageȱarisesȱ itȱbecomesȱaȱ reflex.ȱ Itȱwouldȱbeȱveryȱ hardȱ toȱ traceȱ theȱ sourceȱ ofȱ allȱ this,ȱ butȱ allȱ ofȱ theseȱ elementsȱ comeȱ

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togetherȱ andȱ theyȱ formȱ linksȱwhichȱ supportȱ eachȱ other.ȱ Thenȱ itȇsȱ soȱ exhilaratingȱthatȱtheȱbodyȱitselfȱwantsȱtoȱholdȱit.ȱ

Q:ȱAlso,ȱonceȱyouȱhaveȱanȱ ȇIȇ,ȱorȱtheȱsenseȱofȱoneselfȱasȱseparate,ȱyouȇreȱ almostȱgoingȱtoȱhaveȱtoȱbeȱgodlikeȱtoȱgetȱby.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȱmayȱbeȱtrue,ȱtoo.ȱButȱitȱtiesȱtogetherȱȬȱifȱitȱwereȱnotȱforȱthisȱ notionȱ ofȱ psychologicalȱ timeȱ thereȱwouldȱ beȱ noȱmeaningȱ toȱ theȱ selfȬ image,ȱbecauseȱthereȱwouldȱbeȱnoȱtimeȱinȱwhichȱtheȱselfȬimageȱcouldȱdoȱ anything.ȱ

Q:ȱEssentiallyȱwhatȱweȇveȱbeenȱtalkingȱaboutȱisȱthatȱtheȱproblemȱofȱmanȱ isȱthought,ȱthisȱselfȬimageȱwhichȱisȱsoȱfaulty.ȱTheȱ ȇselfȱisȱtheȱcomplexityȱ andȱdepthȱofȱallȱthis.ȱThoughtȱisȱpartakingȱofȱitselfȱasȱtheȱself.ȱ

Bohm:ȱThatȇsȱ right,ȱ thoughtȱ isȱ constantlyȱ tryingȱ toȱgraspȱ thingsȱandȱ toȱ bringȱorderȱtoȱthem.ȱAndȱitȱwouldȱtryȱtoȱgraspȱitself,ȱbecauseȱitȱseesȱtheȱ inferentialȱevidenceȱofȱ itself.ȱAndȱsoȱ itȱexplainsȱ itselfȱasȱcomingȱ fromȱaȱ sourceȱ Ȭȱaȱ sourceȱwhichȱ isȱanȱ image,ȱwhichȱhasȱ timeȱ toȱact,ȱwhichȱhasȱ psychologicalȱ time,ȱ andȱ soȱon.ȱ Ifȱ allȱofȱ thatȱwereȱnotȱ there,ȱ thenȱ theseȱ incoherentȱthingsȱinȱtheȱprocessȱofȱthoughtȱwouldnȇtȱoccur.ȱ

Butȱ thatȱ requiresȱ insightȱ intoȱ thisȱwholeȱ thingȱweȇveȱ beenȱ discussing.ȱ Andȱthatȱinsightȱwouldȱopenȱtheȱdoorȱtoȱfreedom,ȱcollectivelyȱasȱwellȱasȱ individuallyȱȬȱtoȱfriendshipȱandȱfellowshipȱandȱlove.ȱ

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Iȱthinkȱthatȱweȱshouldȱcloseȱnow.ȱWeȇveȱcoveredȱaȱ lotȱofȱground,ȱandȱIȱ hopeȱthatȱweȱwillȱbeȱableȱtoȱproceedȱwithȱthisȱthroughoutȱtheȱyearȱandȱ meetȱagain.ȱ