Psychology Dobson 4-MAT Book Review Assignment

The James C. Dobson center for Child Development, Marriage and Families Studies Audio Transcript: Developing a Counseling Program in Your Church

Now can you develop a counseling

program in your church I would like to look at in the next. Ways to do that obviously we

can't be comprehensive and so I am going to simply point you

in the direction of some things that you can do to develop

an effective lay counseling ministry. In the process I want us to look at the

effectiveness of like counseling versus professional counseling look at some

examples of some like counseling models. Examine the basic principles

of people helping and the biblical basis the late counseling and

the guideline it's the studying L.A. counseling ministry

and then equipping counsel is for the local sure and of course I'm

separating out a lay counseling for what we normally consider as professional

counseling often involving licensure and certainly degrees in counseling. But should we leave it all to

the professionals indeed that seems to be the message out there today

counseling too dangerous to do it on your own particularly if you

are not qualified well just how effective it is so cold like counseling and

what makes a good lay counselor and how much you go back to Vela being one in

your church let's look at the research first just to see how effective

like counseling is in comparison to professional counseling in one hundred

sixty eight there was a done by Kaka. Where he surveyed peer and

professional counseling and by peer counseling he meant like

counseling people who are not trained. In terms of having

a degree in the area and you found the professionals at

the beginning of the training do a better job at helping

people than like Council is. Now by late councillors see is also

meaning not specifically those who a church has he has broadened

it to the organizations and associations but he is what he found he

found that these professional counselors became less effective as

they training continued and that sounds counter-intuitive but

they are less effective and like counselors often end

up being more effective. In a study done in one hundred seventy

nine by Dulac he reviewed over forty two studies that compared the effectiveness

of professional hope has two Para for paraprofessional help those and by paraprofessional he means

lay people hopeless and he has his conclusion as he examined

those forty two studies lay hope was equal to the effectiveness

of professional therapist's. In a subsequent study by a group

who just couldn't accept those results in Nineteen Eighty-Four and

so attempted to refute those findings by can combining

the results of forty six studies. They found to their surprise that they

had that a supported Dulux confused conclusions. Clients of lay hope is

consistently achieved more positive outcomes then did clients

of the professionally educated and experienced counsel is and

of course these results were surprising. In a real analysis of the how

to shop early in Raja's study. In the following year Berman and Norton

reached the conclusion that lay counselors were equally effective as professional

counselors in promoting positive change. And no research currently supports

the notion the professional training or knowledge or experience improves

therapist effectiveness which is a rather discouraging finding

if you're a professional counsellor and by the way it's not to say that

professional counselors and not effective and do not have their place. In nine hundred ninety three Herman

reviewed the studies and concluded that the research suggested that professional

Cherry Ning was not the primary means for developing competence

in helping people and here is the key we found was it

was the personal characteristics of the hope that these were the greatest

factors leading to competence as a counselor who you are your

giftedness if you will. In nine hundred ninety seven Tannen

studied Lake counseling programs and found that little for research had been

done to assess their effectiveness tickly those in a church based Christian lay

counseling programs intended a controlled study of a church based late counseling

program and found that the treatment group reported significantly more

improvement on old mage's than a control group that is a group that did

not have any counseling in of ancien and they maintained those gains at significant

levels in other woods the study supported the effectiveness of Christian Lake

counseling in a local church context. Research shows the effectiveness of some

kinds of para professional counseling. But more research is needed

to be done in this area as you look at the various lay

counseling approaches you'll find that they offer a variety of ways

that it can be done and different training approaches you have for example the active listening

approaches of the Stephen ministry. The cognitive and solution focused

types of the misbelief therapy in the biblical counseling of Larry crab

the uni healing approaches and then the mixed approaches and the integration

types of approaches that you find out there with the American Association

of Christian council is in the freedom in Christ the new land it's an approach and

the exchange the life approaches and so on what you have is the rather

it ministry of late counselling that's available

that you can examine and see if you can apply it within your local

church if we were to conclude in terms of these studies we find that the studies

demonstrate that maturity and love genuine concern empathy humility and vulnerability are more important

than professional training again who you are and your gifts but again we also need to point out the training

should not be described or looked. Let me give you some

examples of some of the lay counselling ministries

that are out there and I would carry encourage you to further

investigate them particularly if you're considering developing a program in your

church there is the Stephen ministry. With Kathy posture and a clinical

psychologist who is Day director of the Stephen ministry it was founded as

a lay carrying ministry in one hundred seventy five and the congregation in

the rolls in a series of studies with Lee. It is who are selected for

a twelve day training course and there is the preparation of the church and

the lake give is selected and trained and so

you can go through a process of training. The A.C.C. has a series for

distance learning and five pot thirty lesson training program

caring for people God's way very intensive approach that the zine to educate

in a quip a community of hope is in the church it gives careful biblical

encourage men and direction and hope. So that you can counsel

people who are hurting and taking you ministry into a hurting world. One of the first to really engage this

concept was Gary Collins in his book How to be a people hope. He talks about what he calls

discipleship counseling. Christian counseling as Dr Collins is discipleship counseling it's

based on the Great Commission. To go into a world and to make disciples. And so he identifies some basic

principles of people hoping any hoping relationship the personality

values attitudes and beliefs of the help are of primary importance see says and

he wrote this book private. Much of the findings that have

certainly affirmed and confident or Gary Collins said in Glacial six

one we were encouraged to restore one another gently but

were also told to avoid being tempted. As cells even in that restoration process

we had to be humble Galatians six three says and in the following verse we

need to engage in self-examination and we need to be willing to learn and. Constantly aware of God. And patients doing good to all people and

so in Galatians six one through ten

you get a basic addict shoot an approach that addresses the personality

in the values in the attitudes and the beliefs of a person that

God can use in a helping or a counseling ministry if you are to

summarize what we are looking for in a church is people or individuals who

have warmth who have empathy genuineness. The basic seeds of what makes

a good lay counseling ministry second principle is the Hopis

added shoot the council is attitude motivation and

desire to help these are important why would a person want to help

another what is the motivation what we needing here is

assistance to change and grow to provide an atmosphere of help. You need to have an adult attitude

of hope in a biblical counseling ministry faith is important in

counseling we need people of faith to engage in this sort of ministry and so Jesus commands the hymn urging woman

the woman with the issue of blood for her faith mocked up to five this

that he for he heals two blind men because of their faith in Matthew

nine twenty six faith math and faith is essential in developing

an effective church counseling ministry the third principle of people hoping is of

the helping relationship between the help and the help she is of great

significance we need to recognize the different degrees of closeness

of temperaments all personality and how people respond to issues there is a

unique mists of each helping relationship how do you as a lake counselor respond and

act to this person who is needing help and how are they responding and

acting towards you. Are you pod of a god called relationship. And so you need to be aware

of that relationship a third. Shifts to the importance of techniques and

principles in people helping and that is helping must focus on the Hopis emotions

and thoughts and behavior all three. If you going to help people. As part of your counseling ministry in the

church you need to be able to understand and connect with and recognize

the the emotions the thoughts and the behavior all three of

those in a holistic way. And helping involves a variety of skills. That you have or maybe you don't have and

that's part of the assessment if you're going to be a help there are a certain

helping skills you need to have and the ultimate goal of helping is to

make disciples says Gary Collins to make people more like Christ and disciple is also of help

ease applies in that regard Collins suggests a peer

counseling training program that involves a number of SEPs and

let me just briefly go through them for you first you need to select people

in your church very carefully not everyone who wants to be

a lake Council needs to be one or should be one and so

as we've indicated here Galatians six one comes to bear as you go through

those various characteristics and then you need to focus on

the perspective counselor as a person. The personality their values how

mature they are as Christians their attitudes their attitudes

towards helping and their beliefs and we'd need to examine these

in the light of Scripture the third thing you're needing in

a training program is the skills. Need to teach people how to know and

observe and do counseling. To know what is needed to be able to

observe very carefully in a counseling relationship and then be able

to do activities demonstrate and instruct people in how to deal with

problems and issues in their lives the fourth thing is you need some sort

of on the job training some sort of experience and this needs to obviously

be under very close supervision and then finally recognize your

limitations that is knowing where you've reached the extent of your

ability and you need to make a refer And so these five areas of training suggested

by call and serve as a good foundation obviously they need more fleshing

out than we have time here and so I would commend his book to you as

with other US If you are indeed intent on developing

a program within your church. Now the model is being

presented by saying Young tan in his book late counseling he disk. Rives this book that came out

in nine hundred ninety one and in subsequent chapters in the book

competent Christian counseling he has a chapter on Les helping involving the

whole church in Seoul care ministry and these works can help you in

developing L a counseling program and let me very briefly give you

a view of tans approach. Can I get is that there is a call to

ministry in general all of us as part of the Body of Christ have a role in

the church there is a priesthood of believers as first Pete it to five and

nine tells us we are to be ministers one to another we're also called to reach

maturity in Christ through unity and faith knowledge of Christ in the building

up of the body and if the genes for there's a unity of coaling in Christ

there's no distinction between a professional priesthood and

a lay body but we are all one in Christ Jesus and there's

a unity of ministry that we're cold to there's a unity in common life there's

an independence that we have within the Body of Christ which

means that we look out for each other we bear one another's

burdens as the Scripture tells us and there's a unity of purpose we

are focused on all maturing in Christ. But we can also see Lay counseling as

a calling to a specific ministry we see it through certainly being called to love one

another in John thirteen thirty four and thirty five we see it in the cold to

bear one another's burdens still ation seeks to we see it in the call for restore

it restoring through compassion and prayer in James five sixteen we see

an Romans fifteen in kolache and three in first less Lenin's five the

importance of in monish ing encouraging and helping one another and we see it

through the special gifts of exploitation. And para Cleese scumming alongside

in Romans twelve eight the power of. The Greek word power alongside and

Cal a call alongside and of course the Holy Spirit is identified

as the divine para Clete the one who comforts exhorts consoles

the sea choose and instructs. And so Tom proposes a biblically

based comprehensive somewhat eclectic model with a strong cognitive behavioral

component in his approach and he sees Cal a counseling

as involving multiple dimensions it's not just a formal

sitting down with one person or with a family engaged in

a formal approach to counseling it can include the church developing

hotlines call incentives you can involve peer counseling one on one it

can involve home visitation programs and church based ministry this is very

eclectic it's multi-dimensional and so keep that in mind as the seeking to care

for one another within a church can say takes ten off is this definition

of like counseling caregiving by nonprofessionals or paraprofessional help

those who have limited or no training counseling skills in other words they

don't have formal counseling degrees but as we have seen from the research that

doesn't make them any less effective and in fact in some cases like cancer as can

be more effective the biblical basis of late helping in the Christian community is

found in Romans fifteen verse fourteen and collation six as we have

just referenced and in various other passages

throughout Scripture and we all see you see the basis within

the priesthood of the believers and the relevant spiritual gifts that

we find in Romans twelve and first Corinthians twelve

are the fees ins for and so on. There are three possible models all. Of late helping that can be done says and is the informal spontaneous types of

models the provide informal relationships this is just friendship related helping or

peer hoping or help ease may or may not have some basic skills training

there's not any ongoing supervision in this model it's very informal very

spontaneous where helping one another. There is the informal but organized model

this is where the helping is done in informal settings there is not

a counseling center per se it may be done in visitation with poems

and with hospitals even restaurants a community facilities it is

an organized but informal model and then there and an example of that

might be the Stephen series that's a fairly well organized system of training

that has an informal nature to A but then there is the formal organized

model and this might be the one you tend to think of but again you'll notice

that is not the only way to do it. And so you may find this sort of model in

church and community counseling centers your church may have a counseling

center or may wish to develop one here you have the systematic training and

the regular supervision. Ten gives five guidelines for studying

the Ministry says you need to choose an appropriately helping model and

I have referenced two or three of those so you need to

determine which one best fits and also with the you want to do the informal

formal or a mixed type of model. The church needs to be committed to

doing this you need the full support for the idea and the model from the past of ministry

Staffan the church governing bodies. Counselling needs to be an extension of

the pastoral care within the church it's an expression of the priesthood of the

believer and I might add that if you are. Part of a church you cannot

not engage in counseling. You're going to be doing it one way or

another and if you're a pasta. You're not going to be O. be rude void at some

point counseling people. And so my challenge is for you to think about how you want to

go back doing it within your church. The fifth guideline is to select and

screen appropriately gifted and qualified Christian lady help us from the

congregation and you'll notice that this is saying that not everyone is gifted and

qualified in the same way and so what should be that selection

criteria you're needing people who are spiritually mature you needing

people who are psychologically and emotionally stable there are some people

who are struggling with issues themselves. Who may truly believe that they

capable of helping out US but they are not emotionally mature and

stable to do so and so you need to school screen with

wisdom they need to have a love for an interest in the people that

is that empathy that warmth the genuineness the they need to

have appropriate spiritual gifts for helping to give some encouragement

of instruction in X. or Taishan. Some previous training or

eons experience in people helping obviously can be a good

thing at this point the age the gen the socioeconomic ethnic

cultural background needs to be relevant to the needs of the congregation

they need to be a good fit and such people need to be available and

teachable and they need to be able to maintain confidentiality

you do not want gossip it's as counseling us the importance of

confidentiality cannot be stressed and. And then says ten you need to provide

an adequate training program. And develop programs in ministries

in which trained lay helpless can be used while a receive regular

an ongoing supervision and what would these training programs

requirements look like they need to be a basic Biblical knowledge that's relevant

to care giving to people helping and the counseling and helping skills need

to be developed with opportunities to practice them and you can practice them

certainly through role playing and so on and again here is where

you would need to look for those books and those videos series

that can help you to that in. Need to understand the common problems

that you face in the church today people who deal with stress and

anxiety and abuse physical emotional sexual abuse and the spiritual

issues spiritual warfare and so on you need to have a basic understanding

of the war on the ethics in your particular area of State contrie

as they relate to counseling and then you need to have

a strong referral system and referral information and techniques in

terms of how to go about referring to. He's you go to have a formal organized

model of counseling then first you need to have very clear objectives for

the counseling center. One of the things I do and I hope churches

develop programs is I ask them what their particular mission is for the counseling

is it to build up within the church body or is it also going to be an outreach

ministry into the local community a way of helping out this even as you're able

to take the Gospel in the womb but you need to understand which approach

you're going to use the very clear purpose of your helping senda need to have

a very distinctive character or ethos in terms of the center it may

be reflected in the name what are you going to call it counseling center is it

just simply going to be counseling center or is it along the lines all

of New Hope counseling center. For Celebrate Recovery to

name a particular program. South there what is the character

of the counseling center and they need to carefully select and

train and supervise those who are going to do the helping or

counseling need suitable facilities and office space and

operating hours need to be established you need to have a governing structure

to guide the operation a director or even a Board of Supervisors you need

to decide how you want to publicize the lay helping services again

within the community of faith or as outreach ministry you need to identify

what services are going to be provided the need to have a financing and

funding budget within the church and then decide how the center itself

is going to be affiliated with the church where that's going

to be incorporated in its own or clearly can connected within

the church body and budget. All of these issues need to be to. Well appt but that has been done

before certainly there is help and assistance out there the legal and ethical

issues do require a little bit more examination specifically as I've mentioned

the confidentiality there are legal requirements in most states and

many countries regarding the reporting of certain things in particular

abuse child abuse elder abuse or danger to the client or

to others and the law steps in and says you must report but

this varies again from region to region so you need to know the limits of

disclosure wherever you're located there are questions of competence

what is the level of competence qualification in engaging in

this ministry and client choice. You'll find that there are core

acquirements in terms of informed consent and informed consent means that

the council leave the help the client is told very clearly the qualifications

of the person who is there to help them the training the particular

values orientation of that help and the goals of the counseling

in the various processes and the effectiveness even of

such counseling clients or help ease the need to be told these

things and there are various other issues particularly in the church and

one stands that is Jewel relationships. The importance of boundaries clad in towns

and of written at length on the importance of establishing good healthy

effective Ballenger ease and this is a problem in the church if you

counselling someone who's also a friend or relative how objective can you be and so

it's generally suggested you not count. A lead doesn't mean you count offers

advice as a friend or relative but in terms of any formal relationship

generally that's frowned upon and so you need to have very clear statements and

guidelines in that to that end. As an example ten has twelve

session training program and I'll just briefly run through that for you this is an integrated biblically based

model for effective Christian counseling. And that is what he first develops and explains in the training what does

that look like what does that mean you know obviously we don't have

time to go through that now. If we claim we're going to be doing be

oblique be Biblically base counseling we need to spell that out and explain it a second thing in the program

is basic interviewing skills. Skills such as building Ripon skills in

terms of listening in active listening and observing and silence and

use of questioning. Questioning forms of innovation in

counseling and appropriately responding. To people and the spiritual resources and

an overview of the counseling process the stages in counseling

including exploring the shoes and problems understanding at the action

phases what we can do and then how we wrap things up the

terminations all of these a pot of basic skills there and then we need to look at

some of the useful counselling methods the weather that we're going to use

homework or relaxation techniques or thought stopping and thought challenging

a problem solving health and exercise and diet and books that can be read in role

playing and strategies and meditation and prayer and all of the spiritual resources

that come to bear in the areas. And the remaining sessions

intense model borrowed from. Gary Collins is book Christian counseling

and you look then at various issues including the personal growth of

the counsel preventing burnout becoming overworked overtaxed in

a situation the pression anger and anxiety sexuality marriage and family

problems spiritual problems referrals and medical psychiatric intervention and then

using your counseling skills how you go about setting up the counseling

service in your local church and so tends program Cabot's eight

sessions looking at these areas one of the model that warrants looking

at is one developed by Robert Kelman. Equipping Council is for the local church

the for the ministry training strategy. Kelman who is a pastor in a church

a senior pastor for a number of years. Tells all when he first

starting gaging in counseling. All of the problems he had on the mistakes

he made which I guess is a good place to stop if you want to get serious

about it and learn how to do it. And so as he became more skilled

in training in in counseling and also receive training. He found that certain churches

were doing this well and there are those not so well and so

he began to study those churches that seem to be most effective even as

he began to develop his own approach. And that of that he wrote a book about

in quipping Council is the local church. And it's divided into a number of

sections let me walk you through how Kelman has gone about it. One of the advantages with Kellerman's

model is that he argues that it needs to be developed or grown within

the church itself in other words a counseling Ministry should grow

out of the nature of the mission of the church itself as opposed to

bring a model and impose it upon the church and so that involves first

image envisioning God's ministry. It's more than Jost imposing

a counseling model what you've got to do is capture God's vision for

the entire church what is the mission. Of you all local church the God has laid

on your hives What does that look like. And you begin to see now the foundations

out of which are helping or care giving community ministry could arise

then you need to examine the hot health. That is diagnosed how mature the churches diagnose the Congregational and

community fitness. Is your church a healthy or mature church

we see in the Book of Revelation as Jesus addresses the various

churches that not all should. Is of the same some a healthy. Some a lukewarm. Jesus says all speech Yuans I wish

you were at least hot or cold and again some a cold what is

the health of the church if you have an unhealthy church you

may end up with a very unhealthy counselling ministry and

you see the importance then of gauging and diagnosing your congregational health and

then in envisioning God's ministry you need

to dream God's dream becoming as Kelman says N N V P dash

see what's that developing in mission. Engaging a vision bringing passion and then find finally commissioning

the congregation. Have clearly written and

stated mission within the church and then a vision that takes

that mission on the road and then a passion within the church

if you're not passionate then you're not going to find people

really motivated to do this and then a commissioning set

a pot by the church for a distinct ministry and

then finally in capturing God's vision for the ministry living God's calling. That means taking those M.V.P. dash see the mission the vision

the passion and the commission and applying it to the development

of your unique biblical counseling ministry within

your local church and in that way it becomes unique and

it is those individual churches that have done that that calum and

begin to study to see the effectiveness. Second thing says Coleman you need is

to enlist God's ministers the ministry. This means shepherding

the transformation as he says cold of aiding a client a climate of ongoing

ownership in other words the church sees this is our ministry it is

not a separate entity where one or two or

three people over there have a building or a room and it is separate and distinct. From the church this is an intrinsic

Pot's of the D.N.A. of the church itself. It is transforming in the sense that that

whole of the church is connected with it and the leader is shepherd

this transformation they lead the congregation into embracing this

it means mobilizing the ministers the ministry serves as a team

where everyone is on board they meet each may play various pots some

more involved than others but all of them. Are united in the model of

the counseling ministry your nurturing a family you

will building a team and again it is very much a pot of

the nature of the church itself and the distinct identity of the church

within which this is being done. Third Section is now a quick being godly

ministers for ministry preparing them. And so Kelman outlines the raise you may

have the biblical counselor as he puts it. Identifying those who are competent

to engage in this ministry and so we get the descriptions

of wot a healthy effective biblical counselor looks

like those characteristic. That we've already mentioned earlier

many of them in columns as model and even tens model again not everyone is effective for doing a counseling ministry. And then Kettleman looks at what makes

biblical counseling biblical this means examining the theology of counseling and

the methodology of counseling. How is it distinctly biblical what's

makes it say different from and a secular counseling model. He also looks at it as it relates to

spiritual formation the development all of. The counseling Minister in terms

of spiritual formation and transformation and the spiritual

fellowship that engages biblical camps and being connected one to another. And then finally the equipping the

training the strategies the methods and so on and so that they are trained

under supervision to do counseling and then Section four empowering or employing

the godly ministers the ministry. He organizing the structure

of the counseling ministry overseeing ministers for

God's glory and Coleman puts it and then learning to practice ethically and

legally the ethical and legal Be wise in your ministry and

he examines particular ethical issues most of which

we have mentioned this previously and so we have in Caliban Model A for

the ministry training strategy. Envisioning God's ministry. Catching the vision examining

the Hotton health of the congregation. A mission statement which

identifies the God given ministry the calling in the purpose

the vision statement with the unique ministry dream that unique approach

that applies to your church the passion that captivates all of

the members of the congregation and then the ministry action plan

the commission if you will. And in the process you are able to grow

within your church a counseling Ministry people are becoming more like

Christ within the church and they are expressing that as they

minister to one another and as they are empowered to do so

the informal training. In Kelman is model is

usually of short duration and it may be on a selective basis. But the formal training that he encourages

meets regularly every extended periods of time so how much training is enough how

much is too little how much is too much. First suggests that we not dumb it down we

need to keep expend expectational high. Why little counseling is serious

work people's lives matter. And so

comprehensive equipping is essential. Second factor is in walked

a committed member would be doing if not in your training. OK All most committed

members would likely be dedicating a couple of hours a week either

to a minister There are involved in. Or participating in a small group. Must do so on an ongoing basis year after

year what I'm talking about weekly Bible studies and of course church services and

committee meetings and so on so within the church we have a habit

of doing meetings anyway with that in mind if we're going to ask people

to commit to train to do counseling. How should we go about doing that. My other things we don't need to apologize

for we don't need to be sheepish in insisting on commitment both

in terms of the quality and the quantity how much time that in mind

we need to recognize as knowledge and publicize the benefits of such training

it's time for personal growth and group of course connecting

more specifically if people are in training is counsel is

it's not just to the benefit of those who they are counseling it has personal

benefit as well there's value in it. Kelman surveyed twenty

four churches that he. Identified as best practice churches these

were models all of counseling ministries that would serve as indicated

of the best standards for how to go about doing it he found

the average time that they spent meeting was one hundred

Alice one hundred ounce of training in preparation and you

mediately hear that and say My goodness. Who's going to stick around for

that and the included time for a lecture and for the labs and

for counseling observation didn't actually include time spent outside of the

actual meetings in assigned readings or meeting with supervisors a meeting

with lab Pottle spiritual friends the lowest reported time of these best

practices churches was forty hours the highest was one hundred fifty in other

words the average was about seventy five as a train once again you may react and

say My goodness that's a lot of time. Average length of time was one and a hockey is most frequent was

a year a year of training. But let's back off a little how many

Allison years go into the training for professional counseling and

how many hours in years do you spin in Bible studies and

formal committee meetings and so on. Shortest length of time

was three months and that was an intensive program that met

twelve hours each day one day a week. The longest links was three years

old most every best practice church in his research required ongoing

supervision and continuing education as long as the counselor was still

providing formal counseling in the church this is a serious commitment

because that serious ministry. Are you willing do you have that

passion and we want to go again get back to the foundation within the Church

of the mission and the vision the. In Kellerman's three churches where he

did this his formal training ran usually around two years meeting once a week of a

nine months that's one hundred forty four hours of in time meeting and

why meet that long. Well that's the time needed

to comprehensively equip. The lay counselors for

a biblical content and address the character of the Christ

like character they competence and engage the Christian

counseling community so you would say my goodness I guess there's

going to be a high dropout rate with this what was the attrition rate in Kalman Sri

Christian churches less than four percent dropped out less than four percent

ninety four ninety six percent. Completed this program. They started the training continued for two years graduated and

then moved beyond into a ministry. The key to retention

was careful selection. And then the comprehensive equipping

in the context of a loving supportive community of faith and that affected

these trainees lives even as they are impacting the lives of others by the

way in comparison Tan's lay counselling survey in nine hundred ninety one found

that the average in meeting time. Seventy two hours minimum

was forty to fifty hours and he is training of late Council has

lasted one hundred eight hours so you can see comparatively

fairly similar here. This is a call to commitment if you

love God and love you neighbor. It requires a passion and a mission. And a willingness to invest time. And so the calling is to develop

a Christ sanded a church based a comprehensive a compassionate

a culturally informed biblical counseling. That depends upon the Holy Spirit to

relate God's Word to us suffering and sin filled will by speaking and

living God's truth in love. To equip people to love God and

love one another. And it also cultivates a conformity to

Christ and a communion with Christ and the body of Christ leading to

a community of one another disciple making us we are one another NG and

I would challenge you to do an extra jet equal study of that particular in the

New Testament the call to love one another the one another ring phrases or

at the scripture. And so place this within the broader

context of what Christian counseling is all about. You find that rests on a foundation

in the Word of God and that means that as Christian Council

as we need to have a knowledge of God's book The text of Scripture we

need to understand the caregiving terms that we find throughout the Old Testament

and the New Testament the caregiving concepts the care giving patterns

the care giving principles that is so rich within the Word of God We

need to have a wise study. Of hacking is done in the scripture and we need to meditate upon the Word of God

to that in we know also need to become more aware of hacking giving has been

expressed in the historical church for too long we have deferred to other

models particularly of the models but there is a rich heritage

that we can draw from. The church for over eighteen hundred

years of its offered cure and care of the souls and

we are called to that ministry and we need to develop truly biblical

psychologies biblical psychology is not a contradiction in to us we need to

develop a strong biblical view of human nature that is a biblical anthropology

it's a biblical psychology how does the Bible see each of us as humans

tell me your view of human nature and I'll tell you what sort of

counsel you're going to be. We re need to recognize

the limitations of the non biblical models the secular models and

the limitations of the sciences around us. And we need to know how to transform

various counseling models and approaches into a truly biblical world view to be

able to see the world as God sees us. And also to be able to express that

will view an AK ounce Lee ministries and models. We find in the research as George

Bronner's told us that only about one in ten. Christians over the age of eighteen born

again believers hold a biblical worldview. Many of us are ignorant about it don't

even understand what that means to look at the world through

the eyes of God and we need to have that even as we engage

in care giving and counseling and we need to learn to engage in Apply

the spiritual resources of God. Once he provides for us the richness. Of the spiritual tools and equipment. That we can engage and help us and in the process we enter become more

effective kid give us to one another and also to the world at live inch May we

all answer God's call to love him. And to love any business as asked so

it's thank you.

Dr. James Dobson- Family Talk- Communication in the Family

The year was 990 one and the Iraqi army had invaded the defenseless

country of Kuwait. Dr. James Dobson

for family talk, President George

Bush demanded repeatedly that

Saddam Hussein withdrawing troops, but he refused to comply. So on January 17th, a massive invasion

was watched. And what was the first objective of the attack? Well, you and I

might have targeted missile sites or ammunition dumps or maybe even an officers quarters. But the generals

in charge of the UN effort had

a different plan. They knew how to cripple

a fighting force. So with the first wave

of stealth bombers, they took out the enemies communication network. In so doing,

they shut down the Iraqis ability to

talk to their generals, to coordinate their plans. And within weeks,

of course, the war was over. Now that same dynamic

holds true for homes to the quickest

way to destroy a family is to cause a breakdown in

communication. Create a barrier

between father and son. Mother and daughter

are husband and wife. It won't be long

before they drift apart emotionally and

organizationally, they'll soon be

dysfunctional. Don't let that happen

in your family. Work hard at

keeping the lines of dialogue

open and clear. And when you sense

a close spirit developing in a

child or a spouse, don't let another

day go by without bringing hidden feelings

out in the open. It's the first principle of healthy family life. You could find more

family talk with Dr. James Dobson at my

family talk.com.

Dr. James Dobson- Family Talk -The circus Performer (Balance) who walks the telescope: Balance in a Man's Life

The circus

performer who walks the tight rope

understands that one skill is

needed more than any other in it is balance. Dr. James Dobson

for Family Talk. I remember watching

the women's marathon at the Summer Olympics in 19841 competitor still

stands out in my mind. She entered the Colosseum

for the last lab, completely dehydrated

and off-balance, listing to her left

side and swinging her right hand,

almost unconscious. She ran the entire

lap this way and then fell across the

finish line in the arms. Race officials. Well, they are

men and women today in the

same condition, completely out of balance, just struggling to get

across to finish line. During my 14 years at

USC School of Medicine, I saw a pattern

in the lives of young medical students that demonstrated this

imbalance dramatically. During the first

or second year, the students through

every energy into their work to the

absolute exclusion of everything else. At first, it seemed like

a workable approach, but by the third year, their spouses began

to realize that they had been replaced by the profession of medicine. And that's when marital

conflict and divorce became pandemic

among the students. It doesn't matter how noble the reason for

the imbalance, it's consequences are

just as destructive. In short, we have to set up pace for ourselves. We can keep for a lifetime. Dr. James Dobson

for Family Talk.

Dr. James Dobson- Family Talk- The Use and Abuse of Power I

Hello everyone

and welcome to another edition of Dr. James Dobson family talk. I'm Ryan dots in

here with Lou and Crane and our host, psychologist and

best-selling author, Dr. James Dobson. Dad, we have a special

program today. What do we have

in store for our listeners while

we're here today to honor the life and legacy

of Chuck goals and the man that I was honored

to call my friend. He passed away

on Saturday, April the 21st, which happened to be

my birthday, and died at 312 PM at Inova Fairfax Hospital in Falls Church, Virginia. He was 80 years old, but I think everyone

would agree that he was still

absolutely brilliant. Yes, and the Christian

community lost one of its best minds

and best thinkers. On that occasion. Many of our listeners

know this already, but Chuck suffered a brain hemorrhage

late in March. He had been speaking at a Carlsen Center

conference when he became dizzy and was rushed

to the hospital. On March 31st, the underwent two

hours of surgery, remove a pool of clotted blood on the

surface of his brain. What we're told that at times it appeared that

he would recover. But just about a

week or so ago he took a decided

turn for the worse. I've also heard

that he was surrounded by his family and his last moments

on this earth, including his

beloved wife Patti. And they had been

married for 48 years. We want to extend

our condolences to her and to the rest of

the colds and family. And I know we're going to see Chuck

again in heaven. But again, his loss is a tragedy to the

Christian community. And to me personally. I know God's in

control and there are no tragedies when

he is in charge, but it feels like one. His loss is very, very personal to me. Doctor, you know,

we probably will never know the full impact of this gentleman's

legacy until we join him in eternity. But I can tell

you even now, the accolades

are starting to roll in and I can already imagine people

lining up to greet him at those

pearly gates saying, I am a life that was changed because if

your testimony, dad, when you were

speaking a moment ago, you had tears

in your eyes. I know you and

Chuck had been friends for a long time, but actually don't

know how you met. Well, we had a

mutual friend who suggested that

we get together. I thought we had

a lot in common. And so I invited him to

come to my office in 1984 and we sat and

talked all day long. He was like putting a, a match to gasoline. We had so much in common we saw things similarly. And that there was

the excitement of, of the interaction between two individuals who had come to the same

conclusion, kindred spirit, sad or

no question about it. And so We had talked together for

most of the day. And then spontaneously, I invited him to come down the hall to a

little studio that we had at that time. And we recorded

five programs on the use and

abuse of power. And we have erred that interchange 8 or 10 times since then. Okay. We had no notes. We had no preparation

except that we had talked through

most of the day. Wow, and our friendship grew from that moment. He became a very

valuable mentor of sorts to me. He was a much

older than me, but he had been

in Washington. He had that a lot

more experience than I had at that time. And we stayed in contact

from that time on. In fact, I got

on a plane and flew to Florida a little bit later and spend an entire day

with tech Golson. Patty was there also. And we went out on his

little boat and we just talked about so

many things on that day. What do you remember most about your time with him? Well, you know,

I took notes and I still have

them on a boat. No, that was in

his living room and then all went to dinner together

that night. I think more than

anything else, he emphasized

the importance of standing up

for righteousness in the culture and

never wavering from it and doing it with

boldness and conviction. But he then

issued a warning. He said to me, Don't let

politicians own you. Be careful because they don't have all

the answers. They'll act like they do, but they don't and

work with them, but remain

independent of them. And now I saw

the wisdom of that advice and

I lived by it. I have been more

critical of Republicans

through the years than I have Democrats. Why? Because Democrats will

always be Democrats. They will always

be what they are. Most of them are not committed to the

sanctity of human life. And many of them

want to change the definition of marriage

and other things. So it doesn't

surprise me when people in power from

the Democratic side of the aisle would

contradict that, things that I believe. But it hurts more to be disappointed by a friend than by somebody that

you disagree with. And so when republicans do those kind of things, I'm pretty hard on him and have been through

the years. So I was really trying to follow Chuck called

sins advice and 2, attempt to influence

the system without being owned by it. I tell you you

can walk into that white house

and your eyes spin. And they often do for evangelicals when

they get there. Just the power of the presidency

will cause you to begin to be

used by them. And that's what Chuck

didn't want me to do. So he had so much

practical advice from the years that he

spent in that place. We spent an absolutely

wonderful day together on that occasion. Doctor, I know that

you actually issued a statement in honor

of Mr. Carlson's life. Can you share

that with us? I did. And it's already been

carried in newspapers, all costs the country

and on the internet. But at the risk of

being redundant, let me read what I wrote. The world has lost one of its most brilliant

question leaders and articulators

have the faith. Chuck quotes, and he was a scholar,

constitutional lawyer, and a compassionate

humanitarian who befriended lost and

lonely prisoners. For nearly 40 years. He wrote and

sold millions of copies of his

much loved books, while giving most of the royalties to support

Prison Fellowship. Instead of basking

in wealth, he and his precious

wife, Patti, chose to live humbly

and frugally. He defended principles

of righteousness in the culture without compromise or

equivocation. Chuck Carlson was

a marine captain. There are no

former Marines. And a man's man. He was like a

brother to me and I grieve his loss, his influence on my

life has been profound. I look forward to seeing this godly soldier

in heaven someday. I am certain that he is now heard

those words of welcome from his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Well done, good and

faithful servant. Well, Dan Luann,

let's return to 980 for to your very first

recorded conversation with Mr. Paulson. And honor, the memory

of this brilliant, humble, passionate here on our family taught

broadcast. I don't think check you need a lot of

introduction. But you were

special Counsel to the President during the Nixon administration, got involved in the

Watergate affair and went to

prison for that. I want to how long

you're going to be identified that way, as well as the

rest of your life. I learned actions,

we'll start that way. Sure. The man who ran over the study

would run over his own grandmother

who went to prison. The ex-convicts,

by the way, was just 10 years

ago this week that I walk into a

federal prison. But the Lord really use that experience

and from it has come your own

prison ministry. So he has turned that tragedy to

try him. Tetani. Yes, I I reflect back on, I'd often Jim and I think the lowest point of my life was the first

night in prison. They stay a loaders in

the open urinals and the desperate feeling

and the men crowded together and the

guard shining a flashlight in your

eyes every two hours. And I recently

gave my papers to Wheaton College and in the course of

giving the papers, I went through them

and read some of the things that I had

written from prison, both the once when I got a tape recorder in

which one's supposed to have and dictated

some impressions. And another time when

I wrote a letter to my per group. And I was, I relive the despair that I felt at that

point in my life. The awful feeling of having your wallet

taken away. And I protested. I said supposing

I get out here, I didn't nobody

identify me. I won't be able to

identify myself. And they said,

Don't worry, your number 23 to 26. And that's that

an awful sense of loss of your own

personal identity. And what a shock for

a guy who just a few days before had been 10 feet from

the President. That's right in the butt. A shock for anybody. You strip away

anybody's humanity. You take away their meet, their identification. You take away

their relationship with people on the outside and you put them

in a prison. And that's that, that looseness that

after a period of time really begins to have its effect in terms

of bettering people. Anyway, I was reading

those papers and reliving it in sort

of in a cold sweat. And then I realized I was getting my papers

to Wheaton College because weakness

set up an institute for ministry to prisoners, which is now significantly in doubt

and they will be ministry and going

on in the prisons for generations until

the Lord returns. And it grew out of that lowest and most desperate point

in my life. And so you really do see the amazing way in

which a sovereign God works often through the most desperate moments of life as an artifact, I think most frequently works through the

most desperate and I'll answer

as well that in fact is what I want to talk to

you about today, that powerlessness

as opposed to having power and what

it does to people. But tag, before I throw the first

question at Chuck, I want to tell

you what the last 14 hours

have been like. Chuck did not come here

to do radio program. I asked him to come in the studio because

our discussions have been so stimulating

to me that I felt other people

would benefit from it. But this was kind

of a selfish thing. I invited Chuck here

to just draw from what God has

taught him and for the two of us to

interact as brothers. And this has been an absolutely incredible

morning for me. Chuck and Patty, his wife, flew in last night, and Shirley and I

went to dinner with him and that was a

neat time together. And then we met

together this morning. We've had our devotions together and just been sharing our own

views of what God is doing in

our ministries and the dangers that are implicit in public

ministries and, and how Satan can

get us off the path. And I just enjoyed those conversations

so much. I asked Jack, Come on

down to the studio and let's talk about

some of it here. Let's get to

that he's joined them just as much

and it's been a great blessing to me to be with you

and to be with a brother who's we think of like on

a lot of things. And I hope God is going to use our relationship one way or the other

to help it. Sure helps me. Jim. What in your view, having sat next

to the President, having known all secrets of state, that

there are two, no, Having worked with

the most powerful man on the face

of the Earth, what does it do to a human being to

have that kind of power as opposed to those who are totally powerless as you

saw them in prison. Where do you

see you got it? You're going to

approach that question from several different

perspectives. The first perspective

is that as a young political

idealists having worked in politics and government and then another campaigns all of my life

to arrive in the White House

and to have the, the band playing

heel of the chief and the flags

for LNG and the crowds cheering and people around saying Yes,

sir, no, sir. And nobody ever

says No, sir. They always say Yes, sir. An aid outside your

door at all time, the ability to pick up

the telephone and have a four engine jet waiting at Andrews Air Force Base. Two generals and admirals saluting the

aura of power. The trappings of power are inherently

corrupting. I went in there,

determined, at great sacrifice, I left a very successful

law practice, lucrative law

practice, determined to pass laws, to change things

in the country, to bring my political

views to bear. Not a Christian at

that time was not a question of

distress that I want out of a

sense of duty. And I now look back and realize how

that aura of power that surrounded us began to warp your views. But he began to

feel you are a little bit above the law. You began to feel that to you could do almost

anything because your, your goals were so noble. As a matter of fact,

self-righteousness was for me a real problem. Now that's looking at

power in one-dimension. That's looking

what the aura or the trappings of

power due to people. There's another dimension, the power that I think is, is really pertinent to the times in

which we live. And that is that there is the aura or the

appearance of power, or the illusion of power, but it isn't real power. One of the things that

led to my conversion was when I walked out

of the White House, I realized that most of the problems

I've worked on when I started in

government were worse when I left them,

when I began, I realized that while I thought I was

influencing things, most of the battles

that I fought, where would the Congress

over who would have control over a

particular program or what we're going

to put in the budget. And I realized

that the power of government is

vastly overrated. And it led to serve an emptiness in my own

life because I was thinking I've

devoted my life to this and it really hasn't mattered all that much. And it was one

things God use to begin to soften my heart, to look for the real

values of life, which is the power

of the King, of Kings living in us. The eternal values

of God which are so transcendent to the

momentary battles and power

struggles of man. That's what excites me

about the ministry on. Because it gets people, lay people involved doing something with their

Christian faith. And it shatters the

political illusion. And we Christians

in particular, I've gotta look at

things right now and perspective in this

an election year, and it's very

important we register and vote and get

into politics. But don't do it

with the illusion that government is going to solve all of

our problems. We are going to win

some battles there. But the Kingdom of God, the battle for

the kingdom of God goes on in the

hearts of men. This, this subject absolutely fascinates

me because it's very much related

to the profession that I've chosen in it. I see it in newborns. Research is pretty

clear on this, that the first day home, the first day after birth. Child reaches out for

the manipulation and the control of the

adults that are around in the

very first day ever mother knows this, but it took the

researchers all these years to

come up with it. But there is a

desire for power. Power being defined as the ability to

control yourself, your circumstances

and other people built into human nature. And the interesting thing is that the more you get, the more you want, it

is never satiated. And it's not like

a good meal. It's been fixed and

you eat it and for a while you're not

hungry anymore, but it's just a

bottomless, well, what power is

destructive in the sense that the more you have, the more you have to have. And because that's what

leads people to start out often with relatively

noble motives, but then the constant

desire for more power, for more adulation,

for more ego stroking leads them to more and more

extreme measures. And that's how

you, you see empire is degenerate. Was that the downfall of the Nixon

administration? In part, it was, in part it was

because we were in a constant battle for power against the press

and the Congress, and particularly

against the press. And so we had

declared war in, and they saw us gaining power

over them and we saw them getting

power over us. And they knew David war in the media and

they weren't going to be satisfied until

they had wiped us out. It was a giant power

struggle and we lost. But I think the, I think the

problem with power is one that

affects everybody. I think it affects

the shop steward who bullies his employees. I think it affects

the mother who tries to dominate

her children too much. I think it affects

the business man who was arrogant towards the people that

he has under him. I think you to fix the pastor who

tries to play God, I think it affects every

aspect of our lives. It is not just

government officials. When you look at power,

I don't sit back, folks who are listening on the radio

and say, Well, that doesn't involve me. It sure does involve you. And why don't you ask me, check in the visible

public ministries like query and what are

the dangerous to us? We're in, we're in, I guess as dangerous a position as

anybody can be an. And after the national religious

broadcasters, there was a press

conference and I had a press conference

because I'd given the opening night address. And there was a man from a secular

newspapers sitting in the front row. And the first

question he said, Mr. calls and aren't born again Christian

supposed to be loving and caring

for one another. I said, yes, compassionate

for the world. He said and I

said absolutely. He said, Well, I don't

understand. He said I've walked around

these exhibits here at this convention. And he said, seems to me, the bigger the exhibit, the more arrogant

the person who's manning the exhibit. And I defended my brother

and I said, Look, they've gotten

into this business because that's a ministry. It's that God's calling. Many of them started on a shoestring and they're

building up their, their ministries and

they're proud of it. And that's an understandable

human reaction. And then he began

to describe the various things

that different people had said to him at the

different exhibits. And I was again

defending my brethren. But the same time I

was cringing inside because I knew exactly what he was talking about. And it was kind

of interesting after the press

conference, I went over and I talked to him and

I said, Look, don't judge all

Christians by some of us who can't

handle power. I sitting with our

judge, all people in the media by some of the things that you folks. And he said to me,

I'm a recovering alcoholic, mystical son. And he said I

really was asking those questions

because I'm searching. But he said this. He said I run into an

awful arrogance among people in

Christian ministry. And He's right. The idea of reaching

into millions of homes as we're

doing right now is a very awesome thing. And running big

ministries and particularly for

people who know what Christ teaches. And suddenly we have all this power and

I wrestle with it. I, I have a terrible time. Pride was my sin, Pride was what drove

me all my life, the most deceitful thing as our man's own heart. And so I'm not sure I can ever be honest

with myself. I try to be I

asked my friends to be honest a read

all the critical mail. It comes to our ministry. I can't read all

the milk comes in, but any literary criticism

has to come to me. I want people to tell me. I asked them to go out

of my way looking from the telly because I know I won't see

it in myself. And I know it was my, the deadly snare of my life when I

was in politics. And I'm scared

of it. But I believe this

is God's call. And I got a sort

of like Jonah be the reluctant

prophet who goes and does what God calls,

hoping and praying. I can forestall

the inevitability of my own pride and ego

getting in the way. And the only

way I'm able to deal with it is to go to the public late for work. I just have to go

off for a couple of weeks and

study and read it and not not get that. I don't ever walk

on an airplane or into a airplane

terminal or a restaurant, or invariably people

will come and talk to me and it's always very nice

and it's wonderful. But I fight this. That's power,

that's power. And it's inevitable

in some senses, but and we have

to deal with, everybody has to

deal with it, analyze everybody

has power. A parent has power

over his children. Question is how

you do with that? Power is not

inherently evil. It's what it does, what it does to

you at Paris. Inherently

corrupting but not inherently evil.

Power comes from gut. Talk a little bit about the power that comes

from the media. Are we out of

harmony with him? And making use of electronic

avenues that are available to us

to communicate. Told me know, I will often find people

who say, Well, if you really want

to be biblical, you've gotta do

exactly what Paul did. That as you take sailing ships

and you walk by, work over land

and you carry all your possessions in your back as Paul did it. Well, that's,

that's absurd. Paul, use the resources that were available

to him in the culture and

the technology the town were supposed to do exactly the same thing. Certainly not

wrong to use it. I think that you do feel

it's not being used, right in many chi, been very critical of much of religious

broadcasting in America. They particularly

Christian television, which I think is pandering to the egocentric nature

of American culture. I think what we're

really saying, much of the world in a form of pop

Christianity is. So you really want to get your own thing and

do your own thing, and you really

want to succeed, you really want to

win, and you really want to gratify yourself. Well, we Christians have

got a better formula. The new secular people. We've got God on our side. And if you pray to

God, he's going to solve your

financial problems. If you pray to

God, he's going to bless your life

abundantly. And look at us in

this gorgeous, attractive, multi-million

dollar Studio. See how God blesses us and you can know God

and be blessed to. Now that cheap grace. It is an appeal, not even a subtle appeal

to the egocentric, materialistic

nature of man. We call people to

come to Christ, not because there's

something in it for them, but because Jesus

Christ is truth, he is God and

currently it is the, it is the plan of creation embodied in the

person of Christ. That's why you

come to Grace. And you come to Christ, whether it is going to mean that you're going to prosper and have two

curves and a nice home, or whether you

lose your life. But you kinda crazy

because it's true. And we sell cheap grace, as Bonhoeffer

called it, on much religious

broadcasting. And I addressed the

National, just broke guesses and told

them so and it was a sobering experience for the first

15 minutes of my speech, but

dead silence. But then there were little ripples

of applause and I think people began to understand what

I was saying. I said if we dare

to speak for if we dare to speak

for holy good, then we have an

awesome responsibility to present the whole truth of the gospel of

Jesus Christ, the bad news of

the conviction of sin before the good

news of the redemption. The fact that Christ is calling us to be

obedient to live as Christians in a world

where it may cause us to be persecuted and suffer and be ridiculed. And it is not simply a religious adaptation of the meat to give me everything I can

get secular world. And if we make

it that will one day be called

to account. If not by the

disillusion masses we have lead into this

false Christianity, then surely the sovereign

God we believe in. Check. Can we carry

this on next time? I loved him. Well, I'm sure that you have found this

conversation with the late Mr. Chuck

Close and both compelling and

challenging as I both you and I

have Ryan here in the studio listening

to this again. It is such an honor to

remember the life of this incredible man

on today's broadcast. I'm pleased to say we will have more in-store

tomorrow. Lewin, the wisdom and compassion that you hear and his voice has

touched so many people, millions, and so much of it through

Prison Fellowship, which he started. And if listeners would like to

learn more about the legacy of Chuck Wilson or find some of

this classic books. We have them

available at Dr. James Dobson.org. Thanks for listening and join us again tomorrow for part two in our tribute to the late Chuck

wholesome right here on Dr. James Dobson

family talk.

Dr. James Dobson- Family Talk- The Use and Abuse of Power II

Welcome to another

edition of Dr. James Dobson

family talk. I'm Ryan Dobbs in

here with Lou and Crane and our host

is psychologist and author Dr. James

Thompson and Dr. Dobson for the

second day in a row. Now, we have interrupted our regular programming to honor the life and legacy of the brilliant

Mr. Trump calls. While most of

our listeners will have heard by now that my dear friend, Chuck Golson

went home to be with the Lord on Saturday, April 21st, after

complications that arose after he suffered a brain hemorrhage

back in late March. It was very sudden and it occurred

while he was speaking at a Carlsen Center

event in Virginia. And at first it looked

like he might recover, but his condition worsened in recent days and then surrounded by

his loved ones including his

wife of 48 years, Patti, he passed away

and then the glory Saturday afternoon and

it was a great loss. It was dad. We know Chuck from

his work with present fellowship

and a man who stands up for righteousness

and religious liberty and all the great ministry work

that he's done. But most people

still associate him with the

Watergate scandal in his time in prison. Well, he ought to be remembered for

his work after the Watergate scandal and after he got

out of prison. But there's a story that's associated with

that conviction, which is not

common knowledge. And in fact, that check Olson shared it with me, didn't tell me, I

couldn't tell anybody. So I believe that I'm

free to share it today, but somebody

oughta let it be known that he

went to prison because he was trying to protect state secrets. The Nixon

administration that bug the Russian

limousine and the information that

they were getting from that source was

extremely valuable. And it was in the Pentagon Papers which Daniel Ellsberg was

about to release. And if Chuck Goldman was free to say that

they broke into Daniel Ellsberg

psychiatrists office in order to prevent that information

being released. He might have

been convicted, but I doubt if he would

have gone to prison. So what he did

was first of all, wrong, a gender that

it was illegal. But what he did was done for the

right reason, was was to prevent the disclosure

that later became known and was released to the press when the Pentagon Papers

were made public. Well, fortunately

for us Dad, how our listeners are

going to remember Chuck for his amazing

life of ministry. I just heard that the

angel tree outreach, which provides

Christmas gifts to the inmates children, has brought the

love of Christ to over 400 thousand

American kids. There's just no telling the actual impact of

this man's ministry. Well, his legacy is

certainly breathtaking, doctor, and to

honor his life, We are rearing this week a classic

discussion that you had with your very,

very good friend. Really talking

more about his personal story and

the whole trappings of power on the very day that the two of you met. And in fact,

the week titled this recorded

interview when it was aired and it has been there at

eight or 10 dimes. Some of our listeners

would have heard it. We call it the use

and abuse of power, something relevant for every single

one of us. Dr. it goes without

saying that all of us will

miss him and I am sure you will especially

well our hearts and our sympathies go out to the family that

he's left behind. His wife Patti is

grown children, Wendell, Christian,

and Emily. Emily was a guest RAM here with her

dad took Golson, and they're five

grandchildren. But we do not mourn as

those without hope. I know we're going

to see check again soon and oh, what a great day

That will be. So in his honor, on today's family

talk broadcasts, we return to 1984 and the conversation

between our host, Dr. James Dobson and the late Mr. Chuck Golson. I want to continue our

conversation today, which we began last time, about power in its

various contexts. How there's a

**** and a thirst for power in the

human spirit. Now, we were talking about that in the

political sense, referring to your years in the White House and

even in the sense of what you and I are

experiencing now as leaders of Christian

organizations. There's a **** for power

in that context too. And everyone who's

in a position of leadership has

to deal with that. But what I'd like to

do now is to apply that a little more specifically to where

the listener is. Well, let's talk

about the **** for power for a businessman

or a business woman. That person who's facing

stiff competition. And there's this

intense desire to move those

people around that would compete with you and take business away from you and to manipulate

them at your will. Or even a talk

about power from the perspective of

the wife and mother. What are the

dangers there? Is it the same story? It's exactly

the same story. And it's, and it's

very, very insidious. It's the power delusion. It's the idea that we can impose our will

upon another, which by the way, is, is gratifying to

the individual. This is what Nietzsche

wrote about, that we impose our will upon others and that

is gratifying to us. And much of the

sexual **** comes from that basic

route, in my opinion. And I, I think

the worst part about it is that we don't see it in ourselves. It's almost impossible

to see in ourselves. And so we really

have to rely upon the intimate

relationship with loved ones and we have to be obedient to Christ. Jesus gives us the answer. That when he was

tempted by the devil, there were three

temptations and look for he was tempted first by possessions. Jesus

said Turn that. The devil said

turn this stone into bread and

he was hungry. And then he was

tempted by the, by the power of the world, the dominion over

the world which, which the devil

offered him. And how tempting that

must have been to Jesus to avoid

the crucifixion, to avoid going through whatever he had

to go through. So the second was

the power of, was the temptation

of power. The third was the

temptation of pride, because the devil

said to him, If you are the Son of God. But he

resisted each one. And interestingly

enough, he resisted them by saying

it is written. It is written, it is said that as he referred back

to the Word of God. And I think the

word of God as our only defense. I think as we soak it in, as we read it,

as we absorb it, as it begins to

have meaning to us. We then are

protected against, to some degree, yeah, against the

temptations of power. And I don't know

any other way out. I mean, Jesus said

He who would serve? He would lead

let him serve. Out of the business

man who is trying to get authority. He can order his

people around. He can scream and

shout at them. But remember that one

day he may be out of that job and he has an

earn their respect. But the business

man who walks into the morning and

it's got a subordinate, it wasn't quite making it any walks in and says, Jim, can I help you? Is this something I can

do today to help you? Wow, and that's what

Jesus teaches and he is then earned

that man's respect. I will often found that

the best way to lead. By example, I learned that the Marine Corps

and their inquiry, you were told you

never went into the mess line to

get your food? I was an officer until all the enlisted

men had eaten. And if somebody was down, you showed them how to

do it, you lead them. And the great command of a marine officer

was follow me. It was never

you go do this. It was come after me. I'll go for it. It's

exactly the words Jesus uses to

His disciples. Follow me. He said the example

so that a leader, it sets the example

by being willing to do anything he asks

his people to do. And there's, not only is their

spiritual truth in what Jesus says about he who would lead,

let him serve. But there is great wisdom. In fact, because you earn the respect to

the people around you. And you can, you can, in human relations, you can force people

to do things. If somebody is coming to fix your refrigerator, you can force them to do certain things or

you can make them feel that you really

appreciate it and you really are interested in them

as human beings. And I think what you

begin to discover is that you can gain

people's respect. And you will then have authority,

moral authority. That's exactly what Jesus of course is teaching. That let me ask you

the best question, evolve. This is fantastic. Jack, apply all of this now the husband

and wife relationships, because I see most

marital struggles right at this 0.1 now this would be like

my asking you Jim, to figure out how

to evangelize. And a president. I'm

sitting here with a one man in America knows more about marital

relationships. Anybody listen, you're

asking me to somebody. I have an idea, you can hail a question, has a rank amateur

and as one who has to struggle to do this

in my own life, I feel that if you

are always looking out for the interests of your mate ahead

of yourself. Which is really one

definition of love to, to will the best

for somebody else even at your

own expense. If you've got open

communication and if you are looking at your relationship

with your partner as one of serving

their needs, that you will have a magnificent relationship. That is when you are trying to get the

other person to constantly feel your name, rather than you are being interested in

filling their knee, that the

relationship begins to break down, not

just husband, why? It's true with your kids. I mean, I've seen parents

who want to sit in lecture that

kids will love. But if you ask them things and sort

of draw them out and you're really interested in

their welfare. And then suddenly they

realize, you care. And I find this

with prisoners I found in all human

relationships, I can do an awful

lot more listening and I can do an awful

lot more saying, tell me about what I

can do to help you. And suddenly you discover that you're then able to influence that

person in a way that you couldn't if you'd

walked in and said, Let me tell you

what the answers. And I think most

husbands and wives try to manipulate each other by getting them to do the things for them rather than try to do something for that. The great struggle of the first two

years of marriage and especially

the first year, he is determining

the power structure, is deciding who

controls who leads. And in many cases, the woman will say, I don't want to

control this family. I yield to the

leadership my husband. And yet she has all of the reigns of

authority in her hands and she undermines

him every time he attempts to, to

make a decision. And a real key to who's in charge is what happens

when they disagree. As long as they are in harmony

with one another. They both want to live here and they both

want to work there, and they both want

to have this number of children at

this time and they both want

to get up at this time and know who's going to

make the coffee. As long as all those

issues are resolved, there's no power struggle. But it's when they come nose to nose and

confrontation. And one cannot compromise because he sees

it so strongly and she can't compromise because this is

not something that she's prepared

to yield on. What happens in

those moments. And the, the

power struggle involves who predominates and that whole

first year as a settling in power. And if it's not

handled properly. If one has all power in the other and has none, then the relationship

may survive, but it will be a

damaged relationship. And I wish that I

had an opportunity to talk to every

newlywed couple just about this subject because it can either make or break a marriage. And often they get off on the wrong foot right

here on how they use power and and it results in a divorce

25 years later. That's first. One

thing I can say, Jim, is that I hope my wife is not listening

to this broader. Having just

said that it is wanting to serve the

other person and having a wife

who who supports me so much in

the ministry and support when they take

their own litter, they're going to tell

me I wasn't I don't practice room what

I'm preaching over there in my view. And go, my views on this subject are a little bit unconventional in

Christian circles. Because the

characteristic message that is given in conservative

Christian circles, I disagree with,

which is one of total powerlessness

in a relationship. And when you have that, you have the same thing. You saw an international

relationships where one imperfect country

led by sinful, imperfect people

will dominate another one if that

opportunity is available. And what makes for the healthiest international

relationships is a balance of

power exactly in a context of love

and what makes for the best marriage

is a balance of power where both sides respect the other one

and there is not that, there is not

masculine leadership, I believe in that, but that there is a mutual respect that results in a balance in the decision-making

process, in input from both sides. And it take me

another 30 minutes to explain what

I'm trying to say, but love must be tough. My latest book is really an expression

of what happens when one side has

all the power. That's right.

Well, there's no worst tyranny

than anarchy. It's, it's the vacuum of power that will create

the greatest turning. Even in a Christian home. Yes. Checklists turn a

corner and apply all this to the prison

fellowship ministries that you're working in

and those who are perhaps possessing the least power

in our culture. I know you just came back from Latin America and you visited some of the

prisons down there. Talk for a minute

about those who are completely

devoid of power. Well, I had some very

sobering lessons. In my recent trip to

Colombia, Costa Rica, in Peru, in Columbia, I had a meeting with the

minister of justice. It was a courtesy call, five o'clock on a

Monday afternoon, just a few weeks ago

and I arrived in his office and his aide said to the ministers, very busy having a

very demanding day. Would you make

it very brief? And so I looked at

my watch and I said, well, I'll just

take five minutes. So simply going in to

thank the Minister for his cooperation

with our ministry. And I walked in his office and he was immediately

struck by him. He's a very powerful man with a great presence of a young man, less than 40. And we sat down

and we had Oliver, I had all of the Prison

Fellowship trustees with me and he had many of his

aides with them. And I told him what Prison Fellowship

was doing in the prisons and I told

him I'd just come from his central prison

in a moment I did. His eyes flashed and he leaned forward

in this journey, said, tell me about the conditions

in the prison. And so we started talking

about the prison. And he called and two of his subordinates

and he said, I want this stopped,

I want that change. This man is

absolutely right. This corruption

in that prison. And we've gotta do

something like that check. He didn't need an American to telling no, he

didn't accept. I think some of the

things I said really triggered a reaction on his part of and sponge. It was very spontaneous. This was a very courageous man,

Minister Lera bunny. And he was cracking

down on the Matthiae, the time and much

heralded campaign against drug traffic

out of Columbia, one of the first Colombian

political officials to do it. And I did tell him some things I had seen in the president archer. He realized I could I knew it just from my perspective

as a prisoner. In any event,

within minutes, the idea of a courtesy

being dissolved and the most animated

conversation I've met with many of the

world's leaders. I've known them

personally and I sat across the table

from any of them. This was one of the

most impressive men I've met

and government. He was keen and sharp

and honest and full of enthusiasm and

integrity and a real desire to do

the right thing. And bright and quick, we had a marvellous just a friendship that

develop spontaneously. Hello, are you in there? Almost an hour.

He called in his photographer and

we took some pictures. And as I was going out, he had a huge crucifix on the wall and I just sensed he was a believer

and I turned him. I said I'd like

you to take a copy of my recent book, second book, Life sentence

translated in Spanish. And then he embraced

me and he said, Please come back and

send a MAN back. We want you to work with

this in the prisons. What we walked out of his office to make

long story short. The trustees are

Prison Fellowship. Their feet weren't hitting

the ground because here and all a

couple of years, several years we've been

working in Columbia. We'd never had

the access to the most powerful man affecting the

prisoners and the criminal

justice system. He was endorsing

what we were saying. He wanted to

end corruption. I went back to

the hotel, change clothes because I was speaking at a

dinner that night. And two hours later when I arrived

at the dinner, everyone was huddled around television sets and radios listening

to the reports. And someone turned to me, ashen faced and said, minister Lara Bonilla has been assassinated on

the way home and occur. I was the last person

to see him ally. As a matter of fact, the extraordinary thing

was the next morning, the newspaper or the radio that night said he

was reading a book, life sentence,

when he was shot, murdered by two mafia

gunman who came up on either side of the current machine

gun him to death. There was a picture in the newspaper

the next day in Colombia that was

absolutely striking. It was the backseat of the car well covered with blood, glass

splited about. And there was my

book opened and sitting in the backseat covered in glory

of animal. He was reading life

sentence when he died. There were some

lessons in this, as you can well imagine, first of all,

our mortality. I preach that

night to a group of non-believing people

on peace with God. And after the assassination

of the minister, and there were a lot of government officials at

the dinner that I was speaking at a tell you

I had their attention. They were interested

in what it meant to have peace

with God and to know Jesus Christ and

to be assured of eternal life because

they realized how life can be snuffed

out in a second. And the second thing that really struck me, however, was the for the two

hours that the, that the trustees are

Prison Fellowship at Columbia were floating on air because they had access to the

place of power. And we've been working in the prisons there

for long time. And suddenly the

Ministry of Justice, Alito said, and just as suddenly it's

not staffed it. And you look all

over Latin American, you see the same thing. You see progressive

leaders come in and take over a country and

they're killed her, the deposed of the army takes over the revolution. And I saw in Central

America just a, a microcosm of what is to me an epidemic

problem worldwide. There is no political

solution in Latin America or anywhere else split off or

anywhere else. And if you look

at that, what the times in

which we live, the great paradox of these times is that the United States and

the Soviet Union, soon to be joined by

many other nations have the mega tonnage now to destroy this planet

several times over. And yet so great is the power that we're

basically powerless. We have a paralysis

of power. We have so much power

were paralyzed. And I think when

people look back upon this era of the lighter part of the 20th century, they will say it was marked by this

extraordinary contrast. That's remarkable paradox. All the power in the

world and we can't solve our problems and

we're parallelized. But the world is actually paralyzed at a time when there's

so much power. One of the things I saw,

and that's why the, how a Illusion, the power delusion is

such a dangerous thing. We think there's all

this power in the world. We can't cope with the human

problems that are erupting in violence and tragedy in every

corner of the globe. They're fundamentally

spiritual problems and will only be solved in a spiritual last

through the gospel. They see at the

same time that I saw this paradox and

Central America, I saw the answer.

Costa Rica. In the prison

and Costa Rica, the men were languishing

with nothing to do. Coaster recur is one of the bastions of democracy

in Central America. And the present vulture boundary has started

when the prison, and they saw

that there was all this land

around the prison. And so they started

a prison farm and got some money from

World Vision and got some seed and

planted sugarcane. Now most of the inmates

in prison work in their own cooperative

Prison Farm started by the ministry

and managed by volunteers and

Bible studies going on in the,

in the farm camps. And a great spiritual

movement in that prison and

in the place of powerlessness. I saw a vision

of the invisible Kingdom being made visible at a time when all

the governments, with all of their

power a parallelism. And it's part of the. The same

historical pattern we see all through

the Bible. God dealing with the

power structures through the

parallel is sending a powerless peasant to speak to the

powerful kings. Amos Hosea. Oh, but look at the Bible. The Bible is

basically written by parallelize people after

David and Solomon, the authors of the Bible,

are all powerless. The roles bunch of scruffy peasants

throw the kind of people we turn our back on if they walked in

the church today, if Hosea walked and

everybody start mumbling to want

to know that his wife is running

around with someone. Can you imagine

we're going to let him in our church? Does a man smells bad and the man smells sugar? Or the original disciples, the 12 who follow Jesus, I go on the dirty dozen, efficient and they had

no power, influence, money, they were

nothing yet. They wrote the Bible. Much of what we read

today of the Word of God is revealed to us through the eyes of

the powerless see. And I saw in

Central America and South America the work

of the powerless in the prisons as a

glorious testimony to the invisible Kingdom

at a time when the visible kingdoms

parallelized. And that's the paradox. At least check what

is it do to you personally to look into the face of one of these absolutely powerless people

in Latin America where there are

no constitutional laws that protect them. And they're in a,

such a filthy pig. Beyond that, you

wouldn't put a dog in. And look into these eyes and tell him that

he's worth more than a possessions of the

entire world and that Jesus Christ died

for him in and have him respond

emotionally in that way he does that give

you a greater kick? Then sitting in the

Oval Office and making decisions that will be in headlines and next day. Oh my, I look, but

honestly, honestly, the depths of my heart I can tell you people

often say to me, well, you're just posturing to go back in

the politics. I couldn't go

back antibiotics. I'd find it though and uninteresting and

unfulfilling on rewarding. There's nothing

I ever did. I mean, you could

play Hail to the Chief on the

Marine Corps Band and come off of Air Force One of the crowd cheering and it

meant nothing compared to seeing the transforming

power of Christ, the reality of Christ in the faces of

those people. A lot of Americans view inmates as the

ones responsible for the fear that keeps

them locked behind their doors in a

great deal of anger, I think expressed

at those in prison, maybe for good reason. Well, to some extent, there is good reason, but the fear is

based upon crime. And what you need to remember is that

the inmates in prison have

committed 2% of the crimes committed

in the United States, 90, 98% go and

go on punished. And so you may have

somebody on your block, you've got more reason

to be angry at them. The guy in the prison

plus the guy in prison. If we believe in

our system is taking his punishment,

being punished. And I believe

in punishment, I believe in

accountability for our own sentence. I believe that we need

to be held to account, but at the same

time, we should be compassionate

and be looking for ways to

rehabilitate those. We won't bring him

back to this slide in a meaningful way, which is what

the gospel that, so I get the joy and

the fulfillment of seeing their dignity and their personhood and

their respect given back to them

by the gospel. That's what those

at the same time I feel a renewed determination

to do something about the conditions which which many of those

people live in. Check you and I spent three hours in my office in the conversation

never lagged and we have now gone through

two programs here, talking about power And I feel like we could

talk forever. Would you let us

continue one more day, 0 and beyond and

I'd love it. I will take anytime a fellowship I

can have with your Jing Luan and one

a heart. This man had. We've been listening to the late Chuck Carlson here on this family

taught broadcast. We are honoring

his legacy. And you can hear

how much he cared for those

people in prison. And Ryan, it brought a smile to both

of our faces just to hear the affection that he had for

your father. Oh, yeah. They were

true kindred spirits. Thank you all

for listening and join us tomorrow for the conclusion of this

three-part tribute to the late Chuck

Golson right here on Dr. James Dobson. The family taught me.

Dr. James Dobson- Family Talk- The Use and Abuse of Power III

Welcome to Dr.

James Dobson, family talk with our host, psychologist and

best-selling author Dr. James Dobson. I'm Louis and crane

here with Ryan Dobson. As today, we

continue to honor the memory and life work of the late Mr.

Chuck Golson. Before we begin,

here's just a taste of the wisdom we've heard over the past two days, talking about

fighting against the lure of power. And I think the

word of God as our only defense, I think is we soak

it in as we read it, as we absorb it, as it begins to

have meaning to us. We then protected against, to some degree, yeah, against the

temptations of power, has some great insights shared by Chuck

Carlson during his very first

interview with you dad back in the mid-80s. And we've been revisiting this classic

conversation about the use and abuse of power here on

family taka as a way of paying tribute to this incredible man of God. What a dear friend

he was to me. And we had so many significant

moments together. I remember Chuck came out to do a radio

program with me. It was either 1989 or 990. And at that time I

was being dragged into court by somebody

who really did, I think wanted to

destroy my ministry. And I was upset about it, and I was whining

about it. We were on our way to

the studio and I was continuing to grouse about how unfair this was. And at that moment check holes and turned

to me and he said, Jim, God has called you to do very

specific work. Don't look to the right. Don't look to the left. Just go do it. Again. You didn't

hit and I quit worrying about it and let the Lord to handle it. But I'm so grateful to the Lord for bringing

him into my life. And as I said that think last time or

the day before, his influence on me

has been profound. Doctor, if I can

just jump in. I heard the other day on Bill Bennett's program

in the morning. One of his producers say in their tribute

to check Golson, that there were

two gentlemen that had a profound

impact on his life. Chuck wholesome was one. And you, Dr. James Dobson

with the other one. This was a young man

who has looked to the two of you to

help mold his life. And I daresay

Ryan, many people listening would

agree with that. Definitely, definitely

heroes, really. And great role model. Yes. You know, I'm,

I'm comfortable. I know my part, but I certainly

understand it. And in reference

to Chuck Golson, because he was

a hero to me. And we waited in the things

together where he, he saw himself as

having opportunity to influence me and I open myself to that and

benefited from it. We're all glad. Well, I want to

personally offer my sympathies to

Chuck's wife, Patti. They were married

for 48 years and of course to the rest of the family is three grown children

and five grandchildren. As we heard Chuck share in the last

couple of days, he experienced

political power at the highest level

of government, having served as the Special

Counsel president Richard Nixon in

the White House. His office was right

next door and know right where was

his involvement, of course, in the

Watergate scandal led to seven months

in prison time. But he emerged

from prison. That changed man. The scripture says that he will make us a

new creature, a team made check colds

and the new creature, he was filled

with compassion, especially for

those behind bars. And they gave his

heart to Jesus Christ. There's quite

a story there, we ought to share

that sometime. And then he went on to write these

bestselling books. Two more about

that conversion. One of them was

called Born again, and the other one

was a life sentence. And it went on to write over 30 books and

they're all classics. They're all highly

relevant. Today. Think of kingdoms

in conflict, which was also about

power in government. So he was thinking

all the way back in 1984 when we were talking about

the things that would become a lifelong

theme for him. And what a great opportunity to know

this great man, doctor, it really is nearly

impossible to overstate the impact that

check Olsen has had on this country

and on Christendom, I think of all the times. You said that he spoke out about righteousness

in the culture. Any even hosted his

own radio program, breakpoint, which many people are

familiar with, Dan Lou and I'm reminded of his time here with

his daughter Emily, when she was talking about the book Dancing with Max. Her life with her

son who has autism. And hearing

Chuck talk about learning new ways to

communicate with Max. And I thought here's

this amazing man, a brilliant

man, a scholar. And he still

open to learning new things and

to really lean. The Lord to

guide his life. Well, I I cherish that

day because Chuck, can Emily, we're

here. Max was not. And we were talking about the

stresses of being a single mother

and attempting to meet Max needs. And Chuck was,

as you said, so compassionate own day without a rare that soon, but cause there's a lot

there for all of us, including those

that do not have a disabled child. Right now we're

going to conclude this three-day series, recorded the first

day you met. And if anybody missed the first part of

this broadcast, really need to go to Dr. James Dobson to

listen online to the first two

programs or to order a complimentary copy of this entire

series serenity, a wonderful way to

remember his legacy here now on this family talk broadcast

then is our host, Dr. James Dobson in the late Mr.

Chuck Carlson. Before we went on the air, you were telling

me about your visit to the prison. It was it in Lima, Peru, learned gunshot prison which share that story. Well, it's reputed to be the worst person

in the world and I think it deserves

that reputation. That was just an

incredible experience. We drove at ulema

and the head of our ministry in Peru as a born-again Catholic, He's a marvelous man, Manual bone and

a sign of who's driving the car over this dusty road out

and the dustbowl about 20 miles outside of Lemur on our way

to the present, and about 55 miles

an hour and is in his old Mercedes beaten up Kara and I

looked out to the side and I saw a

group of Kappa Senior. I was walking

along the road carrying everything

they own a little satchels

over the shoulder. And I turned to manual

ISO manual stop quick because I'd

seen a woman's face in the midst of

the campus enough. I said stop, There's

a none there. And he started laughing. He said there's

no nuns out here. He said they'd been banned a few weeks earlier and none had been murdered

in the prison. And the council of bishops for the

Catholic Church, which is the dominant

church and in Peru had banned or

religious workers. I'm going in the

prison, the only people who are going and

where our volunteers. I said manual,

I know she was a nun. Please

stop the car. He said, Well, she

wearing a habit. I said No. You know, it was her face. I really, it was an extraordinary

spiritual experience. I saw the face of Christ in the midst of

those campuses. And so we drove up

to the present, which are surrounded

by the army and difficult to get in. We were negotiating

for 10 minutes with these Army troops to

lead us into the prison. And over the brow

of the hill, up the road behind

us came this woman running dusty feet,

clouded dust too. And she was yelling

Chuck goals and Chuck Golson,

I'm sister Anna. And I looked at remind

you of on an exam and smile and he looked

absolutely stunned. And this nun came up. She was from

Detroit, Michigan. She'd been 20 years

living on the campus. He knows every day she'd

go into the prison. She heard I was coming. She was banned

from the prison, but she heard I

was coming and she asked if she

could come down the road because maybe she could get back into

the prison with me. And this woman had

an expression on her face that is difficult for

me to describe. It was the radiance

of Christ. And it came from

being 20 years, living as Christ's person among the powerless

and helpless. And I saw it in her face in a most

remarkable way, Anna, as we were

sharing before gym, it, It's really what

some verses of scripture that have had particular meaning to me where Jeremiah called by God to go speak

to the Kings. And Jeremiah says

to the king, he pled the cause of the afflicted and

needy than it was. Well, is that not what

it means to know Me? Declares the

Lord. She didn't know God to

plead the cause, the afflicted

and the needy to help the oppressed to, to work among

the suffering people as Kennedy's hair, no killing about God. What do you see

in the know? There does not mean intellectually

to know God. We can know God. The devil knows

there's a God. People know that

there is a God. But to know Him and the intimate sense

of a relationship, to know him in a sense of our fellowship

with Him. And if you want to

be close to God, if you want that

intimate fellowship, you can have it by pleading the cause of

the afflicted and the needy and helping the

suffering people for whom God has

such compassion. And I saw the visible

manifestation of that passage of scripture in the face of that None. And I sort them

on the powerless. It was a very

interesting experience walking through

that prison. It was not an

interesting experience, was a chilling experience. I walked through

the Learn, gone to prison and I might I was wearing leather

soles and then no guards at walk-through

with us by the way, because they take

hostages regularly. But that's my ministry

unless the place to go and I didn't give

it a moment's thought. We walk through and put my shoes began to slide over the

slime on the floor and I realized that

it was the sewerage overflowing into the center of the sober the statue was so

bad that your, it was almost

irresistible to put your hand up

and hold your nose. But if I did it, I would have offended

the inmates. I walk the corridors

of that prison, I walk the cell

blocks and wherever, some tough men and they

were armed and they were the places that

it's a jungle inside. And we met with

about 30 men and in one cell block

and we came to the one, brought a guitar

and we saying, I had just the most

exciting time of Christian fellowship

in that hellhole. And as I was leaving, one old man grabbed me

and he grabbed me by the hand or

forgetting he was he was clutching my

hand and he said, You're great man,

you great man. You come and you love us. And he was an older

man and you don't cry and prison, nobody

cries in Britain. But that follow

couldn't restrain him. So he started

to sob Annie. And your shoulders

were heaving and he was all sweaty and smelly and it didn't make

any difference. I just took her

arms and give him a big embrace as he cried his eyes

out on my show. And you know, the interesting

thing is I left that prison with that

man having been in my arms and walked into the parliament and spoke to the president

of the Senate, to the Commission

on Human Rights to the Supreme Court. All assembled. The

powerful people of Peru came to

hear me speak. And I still had the

sweater that'll now on my shirt. When

I spoke to them. By preached in the

prison in Costa Rica, had a great meeting

in the outdoor rally. And afterwards,

some men came up to me and they asked me if I baptize them

and I said No, go see your priest

or minister. I didn't want to be

in the position of offending or proselytizing

or anything else. And they said, We don't have a priest, a minister, their own people here at Prison Fellowship

volunteers. I said, well,

some of them are ministers and

they said, well, why don't you baptize them in the bus so insistent that I finally

turn the meiosis nice. It will get

me some water. And then my system

went over and got a bucket of water are the haustra and brought

it back in. And we had to

leave the prison, having baptized

several man and seen many

come to the Lord. I believe that

prison and go to the palace of

the president who was receiving

me that day. And the president Monet

had me into his home. And I thought to

myself as I walk through the door into

his office and whiskey, it was basically

the cabinet room. How many times

I've walked into the Oval Office

annoyed us, the ex marine captain with my spit shine

shoes today I was walking with

mud on my feet. Mud from baptizing

guys in a prison, to sit down with the president of that

country and fill them about conditions

in the presence. I see. That doesn't

make any sense at all the sense

in the world. But you see secular

folks who are listening to

us are saying, that's those

Christians there. So heavenly minded, they've gotten the

earthly sense, the way to when

the world is of course takeover the

power structures, power structures of the

world and never let isn't anything

except catastrophe, calamity, or

defeat, disaster. The hope is that God, the ultimate judge

of righteousness, the ultimate standard of truth and righteousness, proclaims his truth as

he often does to make folly of man's wisdom

through the powerless. Because only when you're parallelize can you really see the strength of God when I am weak

then on my strong, I'm convinced that

the best things God does are the things that grow out of

our weakness in our desperation. Never

had a restaurant. What do you say to

those law abiding citizens in this

country who feel totally

powerless today. Well, same thing I say

to people in prison. And that is you're

never powerless because God has created

you for a purpose, your circumstances,

he knows. He is looking to

the obedience of your heart and you can feel the power of a sovereign God

in your life by your relationship

with him. I I have a 94

year old woman, a nursing home and

they memory How old. Her story is

the concluding chapter of the

book, loving God. She wanted to die a

few years ago and she was, she really wanted to. She lost all

of her family. She was not she

wasn't able to walk. She was in a nursing home. She was living on

Social Security. She was ready to go home and she

knew the Lord. And she said as she was,

knew she was dying, that she heard the words from Jesus right

to prisoners. And see that right

to prisoners. I only have a country grow and we went

through about the sixth greatest school. I don't know how to write, but she knew that was a command and she when she got well from

her illness, she wrote to the Chapel of the Atlanta jail and

said I need to write. The inmates guards

told me to. He put her in touch

with us today. She writes to 40 inmates who call her grandma. She has led more

people to Christ. She has the most

fulfilling life. I visited her nursing home in Columbus, Georgia. It was extraordinary

experience onto the ninth floor. Here's a little

beer world room. She's got a

10-inch black and white television, such he's got a Bible

with big print. She's got nothing else in this little room except

she's got power, a table and letter papers on it and she corresponds with inmates. And I said, Marie, God bless you, thank you for what

you're doing. She said, Don't thank me. I thank you. These are the most fulfilling years

of my life. I see she has found

what God is saying to care for the poor and the afflicted and the

needy is to no good. She knows God, not

just intellectually, but in an intimate sense. And her life radiates it. So there isn't anybody listening to us

who was powerless. If you parallelize, it's

because you're taken in by the counterfeit

values of this culture, which tell you

that success and achievement and

influence and prominence and

celebrity is all that matters and

that's false. What matters is you are right relationship

with the living. God has a special place in his heart for the

powerless doesn't mean I'm in Washington that evident all

through this. Totally not only was the Bible written

by viral as people, it's written with instructions to the

powerful that they should care for

the parallelize the Jews should care for the Sojourner who happens in to hit their midst. And people always say to me, how

can I get closer? Look, I'm going to

get more spiritual. How can I grow? And start talking about

the scriptural basis for sharing and

the suffering that Christ has

for all of us. And that's what draws you close that I don't

want to suffer. Chen, no, of course

not. Great paradigms. None of his talk

to that person at the other end

of the spectrum we've talked about

powerless now. Talk about the

very powerful, talk to the very powerful, talk to the

corporation president who's got 500 employees Andrey talk to the person who inherited $5 million. So there's an

anonymous saying I don't know who said it. No one does apparently, but it goes

something like this. It says the poor are better off than the rich, because the poor

still think that money will buy them happiness while the

rich no better. If you really are

honest with yourself, you realize that

the power you have is going

to go sometime. And if you let

it go ahead, you're going to

destroy yourself. And if you let a

lot of other people and a lot of other

people in the process. And I think you

just have to daily give it up and say, God, this is yours. Let me be a servant

today. Let me be assumed. Let me sir me away. I can see I get

asked a question. I have been invited to the White

House a few times and there is a sense

of awe at being there, the history of it, just knowing who's

been there and what conversations have

taken place in the Cabinet Room,

in the Oval Office. But I'll bet with you having been on

the other side of those invitations. People come in there

with the knees. Absolutely quaking,

don't they? They come in

there and just our bowl over bias. And of course when I was the president's

assistant, one of my jobs was to maintain liaison

with all of the various special

interest groups in the country, including

religious groups. And I would bring

in business leaders and labor

leaders and the farmers and educational leaders

and religious leaders. And I found that often the most naive with

the religious leaders. I think because they had come from a church

background, they come from a humble, more humble attitude

about life. And they'd been

less involved in the power structures and what they would come in. They want to pound on the President's desk about this outrageous thing or that outrageous thing. And the lions of

the waiting room became the lambs of the Oval Office they

had working anyway, look around and they

would see the flags and the great

seal of America, the United States,

woven into the rug. And it would be almost a blinding light

coming from behind the President's

desk because he would get up

and shake hands and give them

little trinkets and you'd see

them just melt. And the thing

I worry about a little bit today, Jim, and it's a very pertinent

subject is that we Christians who

have a mandate to be involved in

every aspect of life, at least my theological

perspective is that christians

belong in the, in the media

and they belong in business, and

they belong in law. And ministry is not

just people who are full-time paid

professionals. Ministry is every

Christian duty to make an impact for Christ in every

area of life. We belong in politics, christians belong

and government. Christians belong

working for justice and righteousness

in society. Which means that we are concerned about the

laws and the fabric of society as it

is established by the political leaders because that promotes, that restrain sin and that promotes righteousness

and naive. Another half to that

and clay, right? You got it, But you know, you've gotta be

very, very careful. To, Nietzsche put it

when you fight a dragon, be careful you don't

become a dragon. When you began to get into that political or that political battleground

where we belong, we gotta be voting, gotta be instruments of

righteousness. Be careful that we

don't get taken it and used by the

political apparatus. To, I remember when I

was in the White House, I looked over all

the political especial infrastructures

and I looked over the religious

leadership and I solely

evangelical leaders and I got their

names and invited them in for briefings

and took them in. And the President would give them a little pat on the head and

the Oval Office. And they all

marched out or they're just Allies front. We made them friends

and you've gotta be careful by his

own kingdom, which is transcend that of the kingdoms

of this world. And the kings of

this will one day be the kingdoms

of our Lord. And it's awful easy when you begin to get

invited into the way doesn't begin to feel

all that power and access are invited

in the Congress who are or row matched by local politicians

to suddenly believe that you've acquired

political power and then you're afraid to take a stand for Christ

that might upset that. Are you're afraid to, to assert your independence

if you have two and, and you gradually get

taken into where you're the handmaiden of

the politician and he'll do that to you. He's in business to do it. He makes no

bones about it. Was on the other side

events doing it. It was my assigned job. And it's not wrong because it's part of the

political process. But it's wrong if we're

naive enough not to see that they

want to use this. Historically the Christian

message has been, it's so evil and

it's so dirty. And that danger you

talked about is so real that Christians had been told to

stay out of it? Well, I'm not

saying that no, I believe we

belong involved and being instruments

of justice, but I think we have

to be careful that we don't get co-opted

by the system. Power itself is not evil. Power is inherently

corrupting. God exercises power, sovereign power

over the universe, and there has

to be a power, or the vacuum

or absence of power leads to the worst kind of tyranny of all, which is anarchy,

which is simply people in the sinful nature,

destroying one another. I mean, good

exercise power of a man when he put the first cop on the beat, which was the angel

in the Garden of Eden with a

flaming sword. And that's the

first evidence we have of

government that's restraining man from

his sinful state. That's absolutely

essential. Question of how

it is used. It is a question

of whether it is, as it is ordained of God or selfishly used by man. But in the process,

we have to understand that

whenever we have power, it becomes inherently

corrupting to us because of

our sinful nature. And the only antidote

to that is to serve and to give it

away and to return it, to go and to seek the

authority of God. There needs to

be an authority structure in the family, needs to be an

authority structure in prisons in every

human relationship that needs to be an

authority structure. But it should be as God is ordaining it

rather than man in his sinful

nature is seeking it to impose its

will upon others. And that's a very

fine distinct. Let me just ask you

one last question. You and I are moving through the midlife years and old age is coming

to think about that, but it's down

there someplace. And with it comes the powerlessness that

we've talked about. How do you see that prospect for

your future having had ultimate power and now having another kind of power through

a ministry. How would you deal

with powerlessness? Well, I think this has

to be a piece that comes from the

sovereignty of God. And how does a person who was a paraplegic,

for example, deal with the

awful feeling that their brain

wants them to do something but the

body won't respond. That's the ultimate sense of powerlessness, I think. And can you handle it? I don't know until

I get there, but I'm going to do

my best trusting that God will give me

that certainty of being in his will, that will enable

me without God, no, I could not. I couldn't have

gone through prism that a man who was

always in control or if there is suddenly to be thrust into

a prison and absolutely helpless and powerless and strapped in. But I knew that

God had not taken his hand off and

knew there had to be some purpose. And I knew that God

would see me through. And I I think he will never attempt to you beyond that which

you can bear, and I think he will

never put you in a situation that he will leave you where

you can't handle it. And just over that great river

is ultimate power, ultimate per element, paradise and peace

for eternity. What a very fitting way to bring this

three-day family talk tribute to

check wholesome to a close dr. Dobson. That's just a precious

reminder that while we are all pretty deeply saddened

right now by this incredible loss

to all of America. We know where

Mr. Carlson is and we're going to see

him again one day. We will and Luan and Ryan, I would have

given anything to have been there too. They have seen

that moment when Chuck Close and arrived on the other side and

heard those words, Well done, good and

faithful servant. You have served me

with a willing art. Because he certainly

did want to be amazing to ask him to retell

that story to you. When we do get to see

him on the other side. And that we're all anticipating that crown

of righteousness that He is provided to us for those that

have attempted to serving and had been covered by the blood

of Jesus Christ. That's what Chuck

Carlson lived four. That's right. And he has been

responsible for so many others being

ready for that gray day. And yet doctor, if there's someone

listening right now who has still not made that commitment.

Oh my goodness. We would love to walk you through

how you can have a personal

relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Ryan, let's just direct

people to our website, Dr. James Dobson.org for that information

or they can call us anytime

day or night. 87773268 to five again,

87773268 to five. And if you'd like more information

about Chuck cosines, classic books or prison fellowship

ministries. We have all of

that available. Uh, Dr. James

Dobson.org or one last time our phone number

is 8777326825. Thanks so much

for joining us as we are honored

the life of this amazing man on these family

talk broadcasts. And as always,

we hope you'll join us next time as well.